Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 1, standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Addington. Before I begin, I congratulate the Minister on her prescience in predicting that before this stage of our Committee deliberations, the Commonwealth Games Federation would have found a solution to the issues of shooting and archery. I note that our second group of amendments will give us ample opportunity to hear more details about that.

This group deals predominantly with financial matters, in particular financial reporting, and provides an opportunity for the Minister to update us on the finances of the Games and to address some of the lingering problems. Amendment 1 proposes simply that any government grant, loan, guarantee or indemnity must be subject to the condition that the recipients provide financial reports, which seems eminently sensible.

Amendment 5, in my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Moynihan, specifies that the first such report from the organising committee should be completed within six months of the coming into force of this provision, although I note that the reference to shooting and archery in that amendment may no longer be relevant in light of the CGF’s decision.

Amendment 11, from my noble friend Lord Addington, requires in the same six-month period a report from the Secretary of State to be laid before both Houses. It too covers financial provision alongside consideration of other funding mechanisms such as a local lottery or local tax. This issue is picked up in Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and other noble Lords. Quite sensibly, this too looks for a wider report by the Secretary of State—this time within 12 months—covering not only the issues covered in other reports but how to help raise additional funds, and government support for minimising the impact of the Games on local services and maximising various legacy projects—an issue we will discuss in more detail later.

Reference continues to be made to a hotel tax. I am well aware of Core Cities UK’s enthusiasm for this. As I said in a previous discussion, before we introduce such a thing, we should reduce the VAT on accommodation and attractions, as the vast majority of other EU countries have done. However, I note that this amendment has changed from an earlier version and now refers to such a tax applying only during the Games. That is a period of just 12 days. Given that we were previously told that the estimated income for such a tax over a three-year period would be £15 million, a simple calculation suggests that a hotel tax levied solely during the period of the Games would raise just £160,000. I will leave it to the movers of that amendment to explain the benefits of such an approach.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Is it not a fact that in previous debates, the noble Lord endorsed a hotel tax—a view shared by many of us—quite enthusiastically, whereas his noble friend Lord Addington denounced the whole idea on principle? It is very unusual for Liberal Democrats to disagree on such matters, but for clarification, could he let us know where his party stands on this important issue?

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am enormously grateful to the noble Lord. The entire House is looking forward to a later debate on future signage arrangements around Birmingham New Street station, which he is the world’s expert on. I hope that, before our Committee deliberations are finished, he will offer to lead a team of Games volunteers at the station to guide people, since he knows his way around there better than most.

However, the noble Lord’s suggestion is wrong: at no point have I been a clear enthusiast for a hotel tax. He will note that in many debates in the other place, I expressed on the record grave reservations about such an approach until the issue of VAT had been addressed. There is commonality of agreement with my noble friend on the Front Bench on this issue, but there are a range of views, which we will have an opportunity to hear when his noble friend introduces his amendment.

My final two amendments, 19 and 20, look at the wider reporting mechanism. Amendment 20 calls for an earlier report than the Bill currently provides for. I hope the Minister agrees that on financial and other vital issues, we need early reporting. Amendment 19, from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, calls for not only earlier reports but far more frequent reports than is currently proposed. That way, your Lordships and the other House can keep abreast of what is happening and hold people to account. The more reports that we have as the Games develop, the better, and it is important that we use them to keep a tight grip on expenditure.

Let me give an example of why there are continuing concerns, and why there is a need to keep a grip and to understand what is meant by the Government’s plans for underwriting the Games. We know from newspaper reports that removing the National Express bus depot in order to create the Games village and subsequently providing 1,400 much-needed homes in the area was initially estimated to cost £2 million. Reports now suggest that the cost will be a staggering eight times higher, at £15.5 million. Will the money that has to be found be additional to the £185 million that Birmingham City Council must find, or will it be covered by the Government’s underwriting agreement with the council? It is important that we find out such details now. We need early and regular financial reports on what is taking place, and that is why I have tabled my amendment. I support nearly all the other amendments, albeit that one needs a slight tweak. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

We already know from what the Minister said at Second Reading that she will say that the decision on a new tax rests with Her Majesty’s Treasury and it thinks that local authorities already have ample means to raise funding. I am sure she will say that again. The noble Lord raises some fundamental points about local government finance, and I am very sympathetic to them. I have been trying to put forward a very simple suggestion: as a tourism levy has been floated by a number of local authorities and we are seeing one implemented soon in Edinburgh, why not use the Commonwealth Games as a way to pilot it—without commitment to any other city or area of the country or that it will be a long-term tax—to see whether it could work?

I understood that, post-election, Her Majesty’s Treasury was looking at changing all the rules of engagement as part of the Government’s new strategy towards local government and to help in some of the more deprived parts of the country. This is a very straightforward way to try something out to see whether it would work, whether it would impact on the hotel economy—a downturn is clearly one risk—and whether it would be a very straightforward way to enable local authorities to raise more resources for sports, leisure and culture in the future. I do not see the problem with having a pilot scheme to allow that to happen.

[Lord Snape]

Is my noble friend aware that the Conservative candidate for Mayor of London intends to fight the mayoral campaign later this year with one of his policies being the right to levy a hotel tax in this city? If the Conservative candidate in London can say that that is what he is going to fight on, that should surely overcome the objections from the Treasury Bench and certainly from the Front Bench today.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Indeed. I would not bet much on his chances, I have to say, but there is a growing movement for some kind of tourism levy. I am pretty sure that at some point it will be agreed to. I think this would be a great opportunity to do it now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I shall say one or two words on the principle of what is going on here. This is a good thing. At every Games, there are little rows about which sports take part. When the Games were on the Gold Coast, we had basketball but not judo. Australia likes its basketball; we are good at judo, so we made sure we had it. These deals and negotiations are always going on. You are always going to exclude a group of athletes, for many of whom this is the biggest thing they will ever do. This major international sporting event may be at the end of their career, so there is a good principle behind this.

I have a question for the Minister, the answer to which might make my later amendment unnecessary: how are we going to set a precedent for how this is done in future? Every good idea comes with baggage: how do we make sure we know what this means for the organisation? In principle it is a good idea and has good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with those, I am afraid. What are we doing to get this right? There has always been sporting politics over which events are in. There are lovely books about bitchy back-room deals and people fighting to get their event in. This may be a way of reducing that and making sure that more athletes and fans get the experience. It is a good thing; can we have a bit more guidance on how it will be looked on in future? If the noble Baroness cannot give the Committee the answers, it would be helpful if she could point it at someone who could.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to this group of amendments, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. He has a distinguished record both as an athlete and as a Minister. Support for his previous careers is shared by both sides of this Committee. I share his appreciation of the fact that this compromise has been arrived at. There was considerable tension between the athletes of our two countries before the participation of Chandigarh was confirmed. I am sure I speak for all from Birmingham and the surrounding area when I say how pleased I am that that tension can now be eased, and co-operation is going to take place.

Like the noble Lord, I am a bit confused by these arrangements, but my understanding is slightly different from his. I understand that there will be two separate medal tables. As the events are being held some time apart, I presume that the Chandigarh medals will be published first, although the noble Lord appears to think that might not be the case. Perhaps the Minister can clarify when the medal table for the events that take place overseas will be published. I understand that, contrary to the opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the medal tables for the events are to be kept separate, regardless of the fact that Chandigarh is being seen as part of the Commonwealth Games. I am not sure why that is, but I am sure that the Minister will tell the Committee when she comes to reply.

On a personal note, relating to the noble Baroness, I was looking through a list of Ministers and their remuneration in the Times over the weekend and found, to my astonishment, that the noble Baroness is one of the few Ministers who is working for nothing. She does not get a salary at all. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has put a series of challenging questions to her, and she should be adequately recompensed if she finds the answers. Speaking for both sides of the House—I hope I can get the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, on board—we should start a crowdfunding appeal on her behalf. I am not sure whether her exclusion from the salaried ranks constitutes some sort of sex discrimination. I am sure it would not be tolerated in most other industries. On this side of the Committee—I speak personally, but I am sure I take my noble friends with me—we would be delighted to assist and do anything to combat the apparent injustice.

[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for his generosity and concern about my financial position. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and my noble friend Lord Moynihan for the amendments in this group relating to the shooting and archery championships being hosted by India in 2022. The Government clearly welcome the confirmation, in December, from the Indian Olympic Association that India will be taking part in Birmingham 2022. I share the Committee’s satisfaction that a championship event will give shooters and archers from around the Commonwealth the opportunity to compete at the highest level, but I note the concerns about the cost implications of two venues, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brinton]

I put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and I will come back to that in a minute. I just want to pick up the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I want to refer again to the meeting I had with two people from the organising committee who were extraordinarily helpful. Emma Clueit, in particular, was knowledgeable and more than helpful—she tried to explain things. I thought she could influence what was going to happen, so it was an entirely positive conversation.

However, there is a “but” coming. The “but” on transport is that she was saying that they had just been invited to have somebody on the transport forum. However, that is only one voice on a much wider forum. I have sat on those regional or subregional forums, and my worry about Birmingham New Street is the ability of one body to change something is much more limited than if you have a longer-term base.

The other issue is that change is required very quickly. I did not even know that there were two taxi ranks at Birmingham New Street when I relayed my problems with one of them at Second Reading. I find that quite amusing. There are going to be major issues with the large numbers of people coming through for the Games that will need to be dealt with as a matter of urgency. That will be a legacy for Birmingham if it is handled right.

I want now to move back to Amendment 8 on having a statement of accessibility in the Bill. I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that it is essential. To refer again to the conversation that I had with Miss Clueit and her colleague, the Games team have slight concerns about the IPC standards being used because sometimes they want to better them. I have complete sympathy with that, but that is not what the amendment says. It says that the standards must be satisfied. In other words, it is a floor of accessibility, not a cap.

I think there is a very good reason for having it, for just the reason I have said, on transport. We need to ensure that Games committees have real power in the communities in which they are working to make changes happen. Having something in the Bill will make the other statutory bodies in the area have to face up to their responsibilities as well. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to put it in the Bill because some of the problems outlined during Committee stage today demonstrate that, while the organising committee has the best of intentions, its ability to deliver everything that the wider community wants is harder without the power of something being in the Bill.

I said I would go very briefly back to the issue of accommodation for athletes. I was rather disappointed with the letter I got from the leader of Birmingham Council. There are two forms of category 3 for living accommodation for wheelchair users. He said:

“Category 3 is generally around the provision of equipment specific to user”.


No, it is not. My worry is that the council is providing the planning permission for these units and the advice that Councillor Ward has got from his officers does not even understand the basics that Paralympic athletes will need. I remain extremely concerned about that. I hope that perhaps I can have an update letter from Birmingham City Council to reassure me. My letter made no indication at all that there was any accommodation for category 3. I know that that is not true because of the conversations I have had with Miss Clueit and I have also seen the Birmingham Mail report on the number of units that will require extra care in the future. It is 161 units and I suspect they are the wheelchair-user ones.

There is no joined-up thinking on this and that is exactly why accessibility needs to be in the Bill to make sure things do not drift and fall through the net.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, I fear the sense of anticipation outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, will be equalled only by the sense of disappointment when I sit down. Speaking in these debates on transport is very difficult. The Minister said at Second Reading, tongue in both cheeks I suspect, that I was a world expert on railways. I was reduced to the ranks earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Foster, who described me only as the world expert on railway signage. The difference is fairly substantial and neither of them is particularly true. I will take it in the way that he meant it, rather than the way he expressed it, as he meant it sincerely.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the Minister. I welcome her comments, as I am sure they will be much welcomed in Birmingham and the surrounding areas. We spent considerable time in a previous Session of Parliament on this Bill. I do not wish to detain the House by repeating any of the questions I put to Ministers or any of the exchanges that took place on these and other Benches at that time, but there are a couple of points that I wish to raise with the Minister, and I would be grateful if she considers them when she comes to wind up the debate.

She mentioned the aquatic aspects of the Games and rightly paid tribute to Sandwell Council, in whose area the new aquatic centre will be built. I join her in paying tribute. It is an area I know reasonably well. I had the privilege of representing the constituency of West Bromwich East in the borough of Sandwell in the other place for more years than I care to recollect—possibly more years than they care to recollect as well. It was almost 30 years, so I am familiar with the area.

The Minister also talked about the transport aspects of the Games. I wonder whether later she could amplify exactly what provision will be made, particularly for road transport. I do not really have an interest to declare, although I was heavily involved in the transportation aspects of Birmingham and its surrounding areas in the past. I had the honour of chairing the major bus company in the area, Travel West Midlands, before and after it became part of the National Express Group. I know about the difficulty with congestion in the area. It is not only cities such as London or Manchester that struggle, not just in the rush hour but for much of the day. Problems with timekeeping were fairly great during my time as chairman 15 years ago; I am fairly certain that the transport congestion in the city has not improved any in those 15 years. Indeed, I live in Birmingham; I know full well how much worse it has become.

I wonder exactly what the Minister has in mind and what lies behind the clause that says that assistance will be given as far as transport of spectators, as well as competitors, is concerned. The House will be aware of the success of the Olympic Games in London in 2012, when certain roads in London were reserved entirely for traffic going to the Games. I do not know whether that is advocated at present. Travelling by bus from the centre of Birmingham, for example, to the aquatics centre at Londonderry in the borough of Sandwell is by no means straightforward for much of the day. As I understand it, there is also provision in the Bill for the organising committee to issue tickets not just for entry into the Games; perhaps include public transport as well. Would the Minister like to comment on that? It seems sensible and progressive.

The other aspect of transport to which I wish to draw the attention of the Minister and the House attention is Birmingham New Street station. I have in the past possibly overegged the fact that I used to work in the railway industry.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

No, we would like to hear about it.

[Lord Snape]

Fine, I promise not to overegg it too much in the future, although I am sorely tempted if my noble friend will be as complimentary as he appears to be.

Birmingham New Street station is a pretty baffling place to someone with railway experience. The signage there is appalling. For those not familiar with it, the station’s platforms are divided into “A” and “B” areas. For someone not particularly experienced with it, particularly someone from abroad, getting from one platform to another is a fairly difficult task. It is not a railway station with some commercial properties; I am afraid it is a shopping centre with a station attached, perhaps as an afterthought. It is the busiest railway station outside London, yet the bus and Metro stops outside are labelled not “Birmingham New Street” but “Grand Central”, which is the shopping centre.

Someone coming from abroad will not be too impressed by the signage within New Street station, which says “red lounge”, “green lounge” and “blue lounge”— all meaningless phrases. Whoever decided to sign Birmingham New Street in that way obviously got their experience from airports. When the station was being redeveloped, it was expected that passengers would wait in a lounge until their train was called. That is not a habit most railway users are familiar with here or, I suspect, abroad. They are not lounges anyway, but merely different coloured seats—pretty uncomfortable ones, I might add—in various parts of the station. Most people, particularly those going to the Games, will want to know how to get to the various districts in which the different sports are being held. “Red lounge” and “blue lounge” will not be particularly helpful. They will not particularly want to get on a Metro tram or bus labelled “Grand Central” if they are coming back to New Street station. These areas are all up for discussion. I hope something can be done to ease the passage of people arriving and departing by train before the Games themselves.

The Minister rightly praised the city council and the organising committee for the work they have done. Although, as I said, I live in Birmingham, I am not entitled to speak the whole city, but I feel that many of us in the city are very much looking forward to the Games in 2022 and I am pretty sure they will be successful. There are still one or two naysayers in our party on the city council who complain about the cost of the Games, ignoring the fact that they bring enormous benefits to the city in which they are held. In Glasgow, for example, in 2014, more than £740 million was generated for Scotland’s economy, while the 2018 Games, on the Gold Coast in Queensland, were expected to deliver a $1.3 billion boost to the economy in that part of Australia.

We look forward to the 2022 Games in Birmingham. Thanks to the work being done locally, and the support from the Government, they will be as successful as their predecessors in other parts of the world.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I do not object to the idea of a hotel room tax, providing it is done correctly, but I do not think that the Bill is the right place to do it. The bid was won on certain terms and references, and this was not in there. Also, I would not complain too loudly, because an Answer from the Government that somebody found for me states:

“The government’s other commitments to the Games, including the underwrite of the organisation and delivery of the Games and a number of guarantees, will remain in place until the end of the 2022/23 financial year”.


That is a pretty good deal. Changing the deal you have at the last minute will be a danger. We should discuss the idea further at another time; I do not think that this is the right time.

Also, the Birmingham city plan—let us face it, we are talking about Birmingham City Council—does not mention this at all. I suggest that there will be another time when we can go into this properly, but making sure that this tax stays local is important, if we are going to do it at all. Now is not the time or place. We have a pretty good deal that has been agreed by the people involved. We should stick to it.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend in these two amendments. I shall try not to repeat anything that I said in Committee, but I want to express my disappointment with the ministerial reply on that occasion, which I thought, for the Minister, was unusually unhelpful on this proposal. I remind noble Lords on both sides that this is not the imposition of a new tax; it is merely a look at whether such a tax is feasible—no more, no less.

I listened to the noble Baroness opposite, who is a former Business Minister, I recollect, plead on behalf of business that there should not be another imposition. I remind her—having said that I would not repeat anything that I said in Committee, I will break what I said pretty early on, but I know that she was not present in Committee—that, coincidentally, I used the example of the Crowne Plaza hotel in Birmingham and how its nightly rate varied in the course of a week. If I recollect rightly— she will correct me if I am wrong—the Crowne Plaza hotel is part of the International Hotel Group to which she referred.

Again, I must say gently to her that if the price of one of its hotel rooms can vary by £130 in the course of a week, those small businessmen, the franchisees on behalf of whom she was making her plaintive cry, will not really go bust if we put another pound or two on our hotel rooms, as do many other cities throughout the world.

I express particular disappointment at the contribution from the Liberal Benches. I understand through the usual channels that this amendment would have been pressed to a Division had the Liberal Democrats indicated any support. They are always telling us how radical they are: here is a chance not to be particularly radical but merely to support a proposal for an inquiry into a tax that would assist something as worthy as the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham—yet without even hearing the sound of guns, before the guns had been loaded, they have fled the battlefield and said that they do not wish to be involved.

[Lord Addington]

When you have an underwriting from government in a deal like this, do you want to change the rules after it comes out? I actually think that the Government have done well on this. That is why I first joined these Benches: I am not afraid to agree with people who I normally disagree with. If the noble Lord cannot handle that, well, there we go.

[Lord Snape]

I think that I can handle most things that the noble Baroness throws at me in this place. Of course, it is not the first time that the noble Lord has defended the Government; indeed, the Liberal Democrats spent some years in alliance with them from 2010—and much good it did them, I might add on the subject of elections. Neither the noble Lord nor the noble Baroness mentioned the fact—I hope that the Minister will—that there is, it is said, a £40 million gap, which must be closed before the Commonwealth Games go ahead. If the gap cannot be closed in this way, how will it be closed?

Perhaps the noble Lord who speaks on behalf of the Liberal party should not knock an idea that seems enormously attractive to me. I fought three elections as a local councillor, only one of which was successful. If I were still a member of my local authority—that would be difficult because it was abolished some years ago—the thought of a tax that did not penalise my voters would be enormously appealing. That is the sort of self-interest that one normally hears from Liberal councillors—although it normally depends, of course, on which end of the village they are and the group of people that they are addressing at the time.

I go back to the question of yield management, as I think it is called—as a former Business Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, will know that. If it is good enough for hotel chains to vary the prices of their rooms on a nightly basis, surely it is permissible to look at the possibility—no more, no less—of a tax with which, I repeat, we are familiar with across the world and which, to give the city credit, Edinburgh hopes to introduce in the near future.

I will repeat one more phrase from my speech in Committee: we all know that the objections are based on the Treasury, because it hates the word “hypothecation” and hates the idea of anybody else applying taxes because that takes away some of its power. Again, I remind the Minister that the Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands—I did not vote for him; I accept that he won against the odds and will have to fight for re-election in 2020—has publicly announced his support for the scheme. Looking at his former partners on the Liberal Benches, it comes to something when a Conservative mayor is more radical in his views on taxation than his former colleagues in the Liberal Democrat party.

So I hope to get a more sympathetic hearing from the Minister on this occasion. Surely we could look at something like this; it is not revolutionary or Marxist or anything like that. Surely it would benefit the city, the region and, most importantly, the funding of the Commonwealth Games.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to have an opportunity to follow the noble Lord, Lord Snape, who made an interesting contribution. This is my first opportunity to contribute to the Bill. I ought to declare my interests at the outset: I chair the board of PASSCo, the proof of age scheme.

I echo the comments of my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the noble Lord, Lord Addington. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Snape, has read closely the terms of Amendment 2, moved by his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. It puts enormous obligations on local authorities to raise this levy and,

“provide financial assistance equivalent to the proceeds of the levy, after costs of administration, to the Organising Committee for the purpose of delivering the Games”.

The real reason I counsel my noble friend the Minister against accepting this first-ever imposition of a hotel tax in England is that it would be the thin of the wedge. It would put down a marker for others, as we have seen in Edinburgh, who may wish to go down the same path.

At Question Time, the Liberal Democrat Benches in particular—I think it is the noble Lord, Lord Lee—often raise the spectre of the concerns that the tourism sector currently faces. One of these—I imagine that both hotel rooms and dinner tables face it; this has been one of the tourism sector’s persistent, as-yet-unsuccessful campaigns—is that we impose a 20% VAT rate, which already makes us uncompetitive in the face of our nearest competitors in the European Union and beyond. The States would not dream of putting such a high tax on their own business, particularly as they want to put America first, as we keep hearing.

We know that hotels and restaurants will face particular challenges as we leave the European Union at the end of October, in the sense that these businesses and the tourism sector generally—are heavily dependent on non-British EU citizens. We do not yet know what the supply of labour from EU countries will be, as we do not know whether there will be a transition phase or whether there will be the complete frictionless trade and free movement that we currently enjoy.

I do not wish to rehearse all the arguments that others have made, other than to say that I am convinced that a tourism tax—even on the level of a pilot scheme, as proposed here—could have a huge negative impact on businesses that rely on the tourism economy by potentially reducing visitor spending right across the industry. We are talking about hotel rooms today, but it could be restaurants and other businesses tomorrow. I urge my noble friend to look carefully at Amendment 2 and Amendment 7, particularly subsection (2), and advise him against accepting these measures.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, without repeating anything I have said previously, I support my noble friend. We are in a pretty unique situation at the moment, at 5.30 pm today: the country does not have a Chancellor of the Exchequer, so we can actually crack along. I realise that that is impractical, but the thought did occur to me.

[Lord Snape]

I point out to my noble friend that not only is there no Chancellor but we have an old Etonian Prime Minister taking office shortly—I think he has taken office. We also have—on his own account; he is frank enough to say it—an old Etonian Minister present, replying. Surely some deal could be done early on to demonstrate how effective this new order is.

[Lord Rooker]

Notwithstanding my support for the principle, which I have promoted, I fully accept the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I see the force of the argument. It looks late in the day and, it is true, I see it as the thin end of the wedge—as I said to the noble Baroness. I made the point that the broader the tax base, the less you have to raise the particular taxes. It has to be a good thing in principle to broaden the tax base. It is not something we have total control over, because it is a devolved issue; it may happen in Edinburgh. It is not as though it does not happen and work elsewhere—that is the point.

My noble friend used the example of that incredible debate last week on the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. It was packed out; there were twice as many people in the Moses Room as there are here. I got the message that the Lib Dems were far more iffy about the report and recommendations from the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, than the general thrust in the meeting. I am not picking out any particular points, and I do not single out this one, but a lot of caveats came from Lib Dems. Nevertheless, there is the genesis there of something to take forward for our cities. I fully accept that the timing is probably wrong; there is always an excuse for doing nothing, but I do not accept that. There is an argument here for a pilot scheme. It might fail. We do not use pilots enough and this is a classic example where we could use one. If it fails, we will see the defects in it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, it was not my intention to speak today but obviously there has been a great deal of speculation about Lib Dem policy, to which I am not going to add. My view is that localised taxation would be a good idea if we devolved decision-making a great deal further down the chain.

I like the idea of taxation for certain areas of development. However, we have to be careful because this could be a blunt tool. As the owner of a hotel—a particularly fine hotel on the A68, the Redesdale Arms, a pub with great food and beer if you are heading to Scotland—I declare a personal interest.

[Lord Snape]

Do we get a discount?

[Lord Redesdale]

The noble Lord will be first in the queue. I understand it is hard in the hospitality sector at the moment and we should not underestimate the problems that many hotels which have pubs are facing. A number of pubs are going out of business at the moment. It is a seasonal trade and you have to put prices up in the summer—especially in my pub because for two weeks the year before last it was cut off by snow and there was no income whatever.

While the idea of localised taxation is good in principle, we have to be careful that it is not seen as a blunt tool. Small providers who might find a few pounds the difference between making a profit, breaking even or making a loss should be considered carefully.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I had no intention of speaking in this debate, but I rise having represented the West Midlands for 15 years in the European Parliament. As a non-aligned Member, I would still like to call the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, my noble friend, because this is an eminently sensible idea. The proposal, as outlined and supported by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham, builds on that in asking for a pilot. I urge the Government to think about it. The only thing that I would suggest, coming from a working-class background in the East End, is to make it a bit more attractive by, instead of £1, making it 99p.

As my noble friend Lord Rooker said, this sort of tax works in thriving economies in other parts of the world. Many tourists and many participants in sports and events in our cities do not begrudge the payment because they see where it is going. I urge the Government not to dismiss this out of hand, to embrace the suggestion of a pilot scheme and then to come back to your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I too rise to support this amendment, moved by my noble friend Lord Rooker. However, I do not underestimate the difficulties of a tax like this. My noble friend became a very distinguished Minister, but many years ago, when he and I were aspiring Ministers in Opposition, we both had some responsibility for writing various proposals into an election manifesto. As well as being partly responsible for the transport manifesto, I regularly wrote in this suggestion that there should be a bedroom tax in major cities payable by tourists and business people—in those days, I was radical enough to suggest that congestion charges and workplace parking charges might be a good idea too.

The first time I proposed this, in the run-up to the 1987 election, the then shadow Chancellor—I have forgotten who it was, because, as the Minister said, Ministers, like shadow Ministers, come and go—spoke to me in horrified terms about this proposal for, as he put it, hypothecation. “We can’t have hypothecation”, he said. “It undermines the duties and responsibilities of the Treasury”. Well, I pointed out that undermining the duties and responsibilities of the Treasury might well serve the country in a way that he had not thought of.

Subsequently, in 1992, I made a similar proposal. Obviously, I was regarded as being more important in 1992 because a junior shadow Treasury Minister was dispatched to tell me that on no account could this appear in the manifesto because of the dreaded word “hypothecation”. So I do not underestimate the difficulties. However, as the right reverend Prelate pointed out, there is a considerable funding gap with the Commonwealth Games in 2022—figures of up to £40 million have been mentioned. So if we do not raise the money in this way, it will have to be raised in other ways.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We are always encouraged to stay at the residence, so that saves hotel tax.

[Lord Snape]

Well, it would be the George V, in that case, for the noble Lord.

Again, for the United Kingdom, this proposal would not be particularly revolutionary. As a result of escaping the dead hand of the Treasury, the Scottish Parliament is now looking at Edinburgh being the first city in the United Kingdom to charge this tax. We wish the Scots well—certainly I do—and I hope that the habit will then spread south of the border.

One of the contributors to this debate talked about the fluctuation in hotel room rates. For the hotel business to pretend that such a tax would deter business people or tourists would be misleading. I looked up the room rates at the Crowne Plaza in Birmingham this week—

[Lord Brookman (Lab)]

Did you pay?

[Lord Snape]

My noble friend asks if I pay. Well, I would not normally stay at the Crowne Plaza unless there was a pretty severe domestic dispute chez Snape—which has not yet happened, but one never knows.

The Crowne Plaza tonight will charge £122.04 for a standard room. I am not sure how the 4p comes about, but it does. On 10 July, in two days, it will charge £209 for a standard room. That is an enormous fluctuation, so I do not see how the hotel would miss a £1 or £2 charge. My noble friend Lord Brookman looks suitably shocked at these hotel prices. He might be relieved to know that, if he is around in Birmingham on Saturday, he can have the same room for £78. Presumably, business people do not visit Birmingham so much on a Saturday night, so only tourists and visitors looking for pleasure will have to pay that sort of price.

I hope that the Minister will listen to this, stand up to the bully boys of the Treasury—they exist whichever Government are in power—and insist that the funding gap to which I have referred is closed so far as the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham are concerned. Given the widespread fluctuation in the cost of hotel rooms, this would be a comparatively painless way to close that gap.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, before the Minister launches off to fight with his own Treasury bat, I just want to say that amendments such as this are very attractive, especially for a party that looks to local government being slightly more independent and having more power. The question here would be about the limitation of the charge. Have the Government done any research on this, or anything that would tell us what it would cost to get it? What would the benefit be at a given rate? This is a genuine argument and there are examples of doing this in the UK. If it can be done and set at a rate that makes a real benefit but does not affect the actual uptake of rooms, there is a very good argument for it.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I join noble Lords on both sides of the Chamber in welcoming the Bill and I congratulate the Minister on the comprehensive way in which he introduced it.

I have been a resident and ratepayer of the city of Birmingham for more than 40 years, although noble Lords will notice that I have not yet managed to acquire the correct accent. When I get off the train, either at Birmingham International or, in particular, at Birmingham New Street, I am always struck by the changes that have taken place in the city during that period. I first went to Birmingham as a railwayman in the 1960s. I have to say, I thought that it was a pretty depressing place. It was obviously built around the motor car, which was seen as king at that time. By and large, pedestrians in the city centre spent their time scurrying through underpasses in an attempt to get from A to B. As a stranger to city, it was a pretty baffling place. People tell me that it still is; motorists who drive to the city now tell me that it is difficult to find their way round. The transformation that has taken place in Birmingham over the 40 years I have lived there has been enormous.

I know that 40 million people visit Birmingham each year, more than a million of whom are international visitors. Again, 30 or 40 years ago, if someone had said that people would come from abroad to visit Birmingham, people would have regarded such a thing as laughable. Recently, I read in one of the Sunday Times colour supplements that the nightlife in Birmingham is considered among the best in Europe. Alas, that comes 30 or 40 years too late, but imagine what it could have been like in the 1970s and 1980s if the city had merited such a description back in those days. According to the 2011 census, the city has 187 nationalities and 6% of its residents are Commonwealth citizens. The fact that it is such a diverse city these days indicates the support behind the concept of the 2022 Commonwealth Games.

I was interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, about the press, cynicism and how newspapers habitually report these matters. He has been around in politics and the media for quite a while, so he knows how these things are done. Someone writes an article in praise of a project, and the editor tells some journalist to find somebody to write an article against it; that is how newspapers are sold. I always love the word “fury” in newspapers. One of the local newspapers in the West Midlands described “fury” at the projected cost of the Commonwealth Games. To a newspaper editor, “fury” means you ring up someone who falls in line with the story already written—and it is a nice, short word that always fits well across a column. These things are not really to be taken seriously, I am afraid. The fact is that this Bill has been widely welcomed in the city by all age groups and most residents.

I would like to strike just one discordant note. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is responsible for nominating three non-executive directors to the Commonwealth Games board. It has appointed Ellie Simmonds and Lyndsey Jackson; I will come to the third in a minute. I have no criticism of the first two. Ellie Simmonds was rightly awarded an honour for her contribution to sport. I understand that Lyndsey Jackson played a major role in the Edinburgh Fringe, so presumably has been nominated because of her expertise in these matters. But the third is none other than Mr Nick Timothy. I would like to know what the Minister thinks are the qualifications that merited the appointment of Nick Timothy as a non-executive director of the organising committee of the 2022 Games. I remind noble Lords that it was said that he and his partner at No. 10 Downing Street, Fiona Hill, were responsible for the 2017 election campaign. If he is going to repeat that example of expertise at the Commonwealth Games, no one will turn up at all.

This Government in particular are adept at what I call “jobs for the boys”. I have no doubt that someone said to Jeremy Wright, the Minister at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, “We need a non-executive director with some tenuous connection to Birmingham”. He would know where Birmingham was, because he represents Rugby; I would not say that of all Ministers in the present Government. Presumably it was then said, “Well, Nick Timothy lives in Birmingham. What’s he doing since the Conservative Party insisted that he and his partner in crime were ejected from No. 10 Downing Street following the 2017 election? Oh, Minister, he’s writing for the Telegraph and the Sun”. Presumably that qualifies him to be inflicted on Birmingham and to be a non-executive director of the Commonwealth Games in 2022. I want to know seriously from the Minister what qualifications Mr Nick Timothy has in order to be inflicted on our city, and what expertise he thinks Mr Timothy will bring as a non-executive director.

I have to say, in closing on this subject, that it is not envy that makes me says this. During the first Blair Government, I was approached by a Cabinet Minister who asked if I would be interested in a non-executive public-sector position in the West Midlands. It was not an area in which I had taken much interest or had any expertise; I thanked him for the approach but declined it. As far as these matters are concerned, Mr Timothy obviously has more self-confidence than me.

The Games will take place from 27 July to 7 August 2022. Of course, it will be the biggest ever sporting event held in the city: thousands of world-class athletes, a million or so spectators, an estimated TV audience of 1.5 billion and a showcase not just of Birmingham and the West Midlands but of this country as a whole. We should be justifiably proud of such an event and I congratulate the city council on its expertly picking up the baton so sadly dropped by Durban for the 2022 Games.

My noble friend Lord Rooker mentioned the benefits to transport. I had the honour for 27 years to represent the West Bromwich East constituency, in the borough of Sandwell. The aquatic centre that is to be built in Smethwick will be a great addition to that borough’s facilities and I know it will be appreciated and well used.

Like every other speaker, I welcome the Bill. I hope the Games will be the success that is projected, and I honestly believe that will be the case. I again congratulate the city council and the Games organising committee for going ahead in the face of criticism, much of which was unjustified. I look forward to a successful Games—I hope to be around to see them—in 2022.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the suggestions and points that have been made by an intimidating mix of former Olympians, Brummies and local residents, politicians and former politicians with a lot more local knowledge than I have. I have not matched the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, in trying to link my home town with Birmingham; Stow-on-the-Wold is not immediately connected with Birmingham but it is only an hour away.

I realise that I mentioned bipartisanship in my opening remarks. We have form on that; we arranged the First World War commemorations, which had a very successful outcome with a lot of support from all quarters, so I do not see why we cannot do that. I also noted that a number of issues were raised by noble Lords about Birmingham City Council. It is a bit of a tough ask for a Conservative Minister to defend a Labour city council, but I will take those issues on board and ensure that the communication referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, improves—particularly now that the main communication will be with the organising committee, which will be responsible for producing these Games and spending the money wisely. I will come on to that in a minute.

The noble Lords, Lord Griffiths and Lord Addington, talked about engagement. There are now plenty of opportunities for that. There is an APPG for the Commonwealth Games, at a meeting of which the organising committee has already been present. We in DCMS are certainly happy to engage with any noble Lords and answer questions—let alone official Questions in Parliament, which I cannot avoid. The Government have already said that the organising committee will report to the Public Accounts Committee and the DCMS Committee. As an arm’s-length body, it will have to fulfil the normal annual reporting requirements on finances, ethnicity and diversity. So, there will be plenty of opportunities. The Minister for Sport is also available for noble Lords. Last and probably least, they can always ask me. We will be able to improve the level of information that all noble Lords receive. I know that the organising committee intends to have within it a parliamentary liaison organisation.

I agree with many noble Lords that a key theme is legacy. As I said in my opening remarks, that legacy is not just in sport; it is an economic legacy, a volunteering legacy and a cultural legacy—I am sure that there are others that I have forgotten. We understand that the legacy is critical. It is easy to talk just about the infrastructure legacy, which will be not insignificant, but we understand that there are more things to it.

Of course, we will have the Commonwealth Games village, a new aquatic centre—which is for diving as well as swimming—and a park that goes with it, all in an area which certainly needs them. There will be a quite a lot of transport upgrade, including upgrades to two railway stations and highway improvements in Perry Barr. I will make sure that those organising the transport bear in mind my noble friend Lady Berridge’s comments about people travelling east to west as well as north to south.

The Games will also require upwards of 45,000 organising committee staff, contractors and volunteers. The organising committee has already engaged with local companies on the economic opportunities, with the Birmingham 2022 portal already established as a one-stop shop to bid for Games contracts. In Glasgow, 76% of organising committee contracts went to local or regional companies and the Games there contributed more than £750 million to the Scottish economy.

Getting people engaged in exercise is important. If sport helps with that, that is great. Sport England is investing up to £100 million in 12 pilots looking at using sport to engage underrepresented and traditionally inactive groups. In February 2019, Birmingham and Solihull received nearly £10 million from Sport England as one of those pilots. The Active Communities project is designed to tackle inequality among older adults, women, young families and BAME people. I agree that that is a key legacy, albeit an extremely tough one to deliver—it has not necessarily been delivered in the past and certainly not in the last two cases.

The noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Rooker, and others talked about briefing on the Bill. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the organising committee will be able to call him this week and, as I have said, it will continue to do so.

So far as the budget and shortfalls are concerned, the Games partners, including DCMS, have oversight of the organising committee’s spending via the governance structure for the Games, including the organising committee’s own contracts committee and audit and risk committee, which includes DCMS-appointed board members. These provide an opportunity to influence spending decisions and obtain ongoing oversight of expenditure and value for money. The Government will also be able to scrutinise and, if necessary, block calls on contingency budgets. The noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Rooker, also drew attention to difficulties with the financial position of Birmingham City Council. The council has said that its funding for the Games should not impact on day-to-day services and will not be met by increases in council tax. All the Games partners—including the council—are focused on ensuring that the Games deliver value for money. We will continue working very closely with the city council to look at how, with its partners, it can meet its commitment to financing the Games.

Birmingham City Council finally approved the budget in January. Since then, the overall budget has been passed by the major projects review board and the Treasury. The Minister or I will outline more detail about the budget in a Written Ministerial Statement. We may have to have a presentation or meeting with noble Lords to explain this in detail. Not only is the Games budget reasonably complicated but there is other government spending on infrastructure that will be used by the Games but is not part of the Games budget itself. It is not straightforward.

The athletes’ village will be built in Perry Barr with 1,400 homes, part of a larger development of 5,000 homes in due course. The village is being developed by Birmingham City Council, as part of its commitment to the Games. It will be responsible for the strategy for the housing, as one would expect a council to be, including the percentage provided as social housing. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, and the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the council has told us that all homes will be built to the relevant building regulations standards for accessibility. There will be a mix of affordable, private rent and market-sale tenures. About 24% will be affordable housing. The noble Baroness asked about construction jobs and apprenticeships. The construction will provide at least 2,000 jobs, including 400 new jobs in construction and 50 apprenticeships during the construction period. As part of the social value commitments confirmed by Lendlease, the main contractor, at least 10,000 students will be supported across Birmingham. This will include mentoring, career advice, curriculum support, employability support and business projects. I will be happy to write to the noble Baroness on her other detailed construction and supply questions when we have talked to the Games partners.

My noble friend Lady Berridge talked about the wider aspects of the Games around the Commonwealth and the chance to promote equality and diversity in the “youngest city in Europe”. The organising committee recognises that diversity and equality must be embedded in its organisational culture. This can be achieved only by ensuring that the best possible people are selected through a fair and transparent recruitment process. The organising committee encourages applications from a diverse range of backgrounds. In particular, work is progressing with the Department for Education and the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that opportunities are targeted at underrepresented groups. As I said, as a non-departmental public body of DCMS, the organising committee is required to report annually on equality and diversity. The noble Baroness also asked me to nudge the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham on a scheme. I will do my best to nudge the right reverend Prelate, assuming that that is within the rules of the House. He attended the meeting I had, so I will bear it in mind to keep in close touch with him.

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, warned us that oversight and governance need close attention. I agree. It is a tight schedule and we are aware of the need to get value for the public money being spent. The Games delivery programme is overseen and managed through an integrated governance structure that involves all the Games partners, including DCMS, Birmingham City Council, the organising committee, the Commonwealth Games Federation, Commonwealth Games England, West Midlands Police and the West Midlands Combined Authority. As I say, we will pay close attention to that.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, mentioned the appointment of Nick Timothy as one of the non-executives. I think he used the expression “jobs for the boys”. All the non-executive director appointments made by the Secretary of State complied with the Governance Code on Public Appointments and were therefore open and transparent. They were assessed by an advisory assessment panel, so it was not just the Secretary of State. They were subject to the same selection process and were assessed against criteria published in the role specification. Nick Timothy, as the noble Lord may know, is a true Brummie and has a great and deep interest in and love of the city. I am sure he will put a lot of work and effort into his role on the organising committee.

[Lord Snape]

I am sure that everything the Minister said about Mr Nick Timothy is correct. Does he agree, though, that although I am not a native Brummie, I have a great love of the city too, yet no one has asked me to be a non-executive director of this organisation? Does he think the fact that Mr Timothy, like the mayor, Mr Andy Street, and the mayor’s principal adviser, Mr Andrew Browning, went to King Edward’s School, which currently charges £13,320 per year, has anything to do with his appointment?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is a bit difficult for me, as an old Etonian, to comment on that. I really do not think it has anything to do with it, but I may be biased. All I can say is that it was a proper and sensible appointment process. I am sorry that the noble Lord was not asked to apply but, of course, he could have applied himself and I am sure his application would have been treated with all the seriousness it deserves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Snape]

One of the reasons I do not get old Etonians, of course, is that I do not share their sense of humour.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Not everyone does, I agree.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan talked about delegated powers and the report from the DPRRC. We look forward to receiving that report fairly shortly, I believe. We have learned from the experience of the London Olympics Act and have sought to ensure that the delegated powers in the Bill are as narrow as possible. We have included things in the Bill not included in the 2006 Act. There are no Henry VIII powers. Those that have been included are limited to matters that cannot be determined until the detailed operational planning for the Games is further advanced, or when further consultation is needed. For example, what it means to be,

“in, or in the vicinity of”,

a Games location will depend on the Games schedule, which will not be known until much closer to Games time. Regulations about time periods and Games locations may need to be quickly amended in the event of a change in a competition venue. I look forward to discussing the detail of the individual clauses with my noble friend and other noble Lords in Committee. I think it will be useful to wait until we get the DPRRC report to see what it advises on that, but I do not foresee any particularly serious problems.

The noble Lord also asked why we are not extending the offence of ticket touting to other major sporting and cultural events. We have had this debate over a number of years, and I have debated it personally with my noble friend Lord Moynihan. At the moment we think there is a role for a responsible secondary ticketing market which allows consumers to make informed choices. That is why we do not want to impose a blanket ban on the resale of tickets for all major sporting or cultural events, but I accept that there is a debate to be had on that. These provisions, however, are designed to protect the integrity of the Commonwealth Games and reflect the uniqueness of a multi-sport event which, unlike most sporting events, is underpinned by significant public investment. That is why we have decided to ban it for this event. That is also why similar provisions were enacted for the London Olympic and Paralympic Games and the Glasgow Commonwealth Games. As I say, I am sure that we can discuss that in Committee if necessary.

The noble Lord also mentioned shooting—I believe on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria—and its exclusion from the sports programme. That is not directly connected to the powers in this Bill, but is worth mentioning because it is important to those who are keen on it. The key criteria were set, written submissions invited and presentations made to the assessment panel for each sport. Those included financial considerations, the availability of suitable venues, the potential for additional revenue generation and alignment with the CGF constitution and the objectives of Games partners. Those submissions were evaluated and a report then presented to the Birmingham 2022 organising committee board. The decision it made now goes to the Commonwealth Games Federation’s membership, where the ultimate decision lies. It is worth pointing out that shooting was offered the opportunity to transfer, with a suggestion that some of those events could take place in the West Midlands area, but the offer was declined.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about budget governance. As I said, the figure today is a headline figure; I will let your Lordships know more detail when it is available. Overall, the governance is broadly as follows: the police oversee security, with the chief constable of the West Midlands having overall operational control of that—he will liaise and use national security agencies as well, but has overall responsibility; the organising committee is responsible for delivering the Games; and Birmingham City Council is responsible for overseeing the capital projects.

There will be more detail to go through in Committee and later. I repeat my offer: my department is happy to answer specific questions in more detail if anyone wants. I hope that will enable noble Lords to support this operational Bill, which, as we approach three years to go next month, is an essential milestone in the preparation for the Games. I look forward to working closely with all noble Lords as the Bill progresses through this House and I commend the Bill.

Heritage Rail: Young People

Lord Snape Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Grocott. Like him, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Faulkner on securing this debate and on the work he has done in this field over the years. I also take this opportunity to welcome the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds. All too often, these debates are fairly exclusive; I find we are apt to be known as the verbal gricers of the railway industry. Bishops and railways go together quite well, of course. Bishop Eric Treacy was a well-known figure during my time in the railway industry. There was only one line of the right reverend Prelate’s speech with which I might disagree at some future stage. He said that young people do not need protection under the 1920 Act. Of course, he is right as far as the railway industry is concerned, but if this House ever gets around to debating the fast-food industry, I might take issue with him on that point. However, I commend his speech and his contribution today.

Looking back at the history of the railways, particularly in the context of this debate, it is a sobering thought that the youngest former cleaner who embarked on his first shift on a locomotive and left the depot on the British Rail standard gauge would now be approaching 70 years of age—an ominous warning to all of us of the passage of time. However, the attraction of the railway industry, particularly the heritage railways and steam locomotives, is one that includes all generations.

The “Flying Scotsman” locomotive is currently on tour. There has been some adverse publicity about the thousands of people who have gone to see it, some of whom got a bit closer to the lineside than they should have done because of the attraction of this particular locomotive. I visited the East Lancashire Railway with my grandson towards the end of last year, when the “Flying Scotsman” was there. My grandson is now 15 and if he remembers his grandfather for anything, I hope it is for getting him on the footplate of the “Flying Scotsman” on the East Lancashire Railway.

As my noble friend Lord Grocott said, people do not volunteer for just the locomotive department. There are various other jobs in the railway industry and he reminded us of some of them. On the mainline railway, there are still many hundreds of signal boxes. Of course, the intention is to concentrate mainline signalling on 10 or 12 regional operating centres in the years to come, but there are still lots of manual signal boxes on the mainline railway. Certainly as far as the heritage railways are concerned, operating those signal boxes will continue for many years to come.

The debate is first and foremost about attracting young people to the railway industry, and not just because of steam locomotives, as I have indicated; there are lots of other valuable jobs that they can do and to which they can contribute. Like previous speakers, I will for a moment be somewhat parochial. Towards the end of last year, I visited the Tyseley Locomotive Works just outside Birmingham. I talked there to some of the people who operate the works and the locomotive department. Subsequently its chairman, Mr Michael Whitehouse, contacted me about attracting young people to what is a working locomotive maintenance and operational depot—possibly one of the few left, certainly alongside British Rail. I quote from his letter:

“We already run an apprentice scheme for three students in conjunction with Bournville and South Birmingham colleges. We intend to introduce further training schemes and are already in dialogue with the Office of Rail and Road to establish a training scheme for railway operational staff”.


He says that they are anxious,

“to expand and upgrade our facilities to meet the significantly increasing demand for repairing heritage steam locomotives”.

I hope the Minister will be able to convince his colleagues in the Department for Transport of the need for a ministerial visit to the Tyseley works so that they can see their operational nature, and that any application made to the ERDF, for example, is sympathetically supported by the Minister’s department as well as the DfT.

I would like to draw your Lordships’ attention to another aspect of heritage railways—the need for connectivity between the heritage railway and the main line. If we are to attract young people and to train perhaps young would-be managers in the mainline system, they would certainly find that connectivity between the heritage railway and the main line attractive. It would be enormously useful.

Network Rail has lots of problems, some of which come in for considerable criticism in your Lordships’ House, as well as in the other place. Without adding to its burden, we should point out that occasionally Network Rail shows itself to be both expensive and uninterested in its connection with the heritage railway system. I will give your Lordships an example. Recently, the Swanage Railway was not a consultee on proposed changes involving its main line connection near Wareham, even though this was re-signalled to rejoin the railway with a grant from Dorset County Council. Network Rail is something of a Goliath as far as the heritage railway sector is concerned, but the voluntary sector faces heavy expenditure for track and signalling alterations. I wonder whether the Minister could take back the message that it would certainly be extremely helpful if heritage railways were made a statutory consultee where this sort of work, which might well affect their own operations, is concerned. At the moment, it is very much a matter of whether Network Rail consults them. In the case of Swanage Railway, it did not.

I referred to the fact that there are many jobs that young people could do in the sector, as did my noble friend Lord Grocott. We have heard about the plea and desire to look again at the regulations and the 1920 Act. Of course, it is all very well for the Office of Rail and Road to say that it does not anticipate taking any action under this statute—I welcome that news—but if a young person is injured I am not sure whether the legal profession would take the same laid-back view of its responsibilities. It would be useful if the legislation was withdrawn.

Referring to some of the other work that takes place in the railway industry, I have mentioned signal boxes previously and bored your Lordships with stories of my own involvement. I will try not to do so again on this occasion.

[Lord Berkeley]

Oh, go on!

[Lord Snape]

Well, all right, just this once I will be led astray.

One of the signal boxes in which I used to work, just outside Stockport, is still there—I will not go into the details of why, but it still operates as a mainline signal box. When it was necessary to modernise it, yet still retain the lever frame installed by the London and North Western Railway in 1888, locking fitters had to be brought in from India to do the work because we have largely lost these skills. If we could retain those skills through the heritage railway sector, that would be invaluable. This is probably an apocryphal story—fake news, as a distinguished visitor to our country might say—but I am told that after six months of modernising the signal boxes in my home town of Stockport, they were delighted to get back to India.