Arrangement of Business

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I hope that it does not come as too big a surprise that President Obama of the United States of America is due to give an address to Members of the two Houses later today in Westminster Hall. The security arrangements for the President’s arrival mean that we must adjourn our proceedings by 1.30 pm at the latest. We can, of course, resume after the President’s departure, at about 5 pm. If the Committee would prefer not to do so, it must complete the Marshalled List by 1.30 pm. I think and suspect that Divisions are unlikely, but it may be for the convenience of the Committee to know that the latest time at which the Committee could divide on the only group of amendments and rise by 1.30 pm would be 1.10 pm.

Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) Regulations 2011

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That the draft regulations laid before the House on 1 February be approved.

Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 March.

Motion agreed.

Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) Regulations 2011

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) Regulations 2011.

Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am pleased to introduce the Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) Regulations. The purpose of these regulations is to provide examiners from the Department for Transport’s Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, or VOSA, with direct powers to stop commercial vehicles at the roadside throughout Great Britain in order to enable them to conduct compliance checks.

These compliance checks are to ensure that commercial vehicles and drivers of commercial vehicles comply with the requirements of EU legislation relevant to vehicle roadworthiness and driving requirements. For example, EU legislation prescribes minimum standards of technical compliance for vehicles circulating on our roads. There are rules that prescribe maximum weight limits for commercial vehicles. There are also very detailed rules about maximum driving time and rest periods and about the recording equipment and records that are needed to verify compliance with these rules.

Of course, all these requirements and rules are there to help to keep our roads safe, but they are effective only if there is adequate enforcement. Consequently, the legislation also stipulates that member states must put in place appropriate systems and checks for compliance, which is something that we would want to do in any event, regardless of the country of origin of the vehicle and driver.

As things stand, VOSA already has a limited power to stop vehicles for checking in England and Wales. It has the power to do so under provisions in the Police Reform Act 2002—or, more precisely, the law allows chief officers of police to accredit individual VOSA examiners with the power to stop vehicles in order to carry out roadworthiness checks. Although this is a rather cumbersome administrative process, the general arrangements for enabling VOSA to stop vehicles for inspection work well in practice, since they save time in overall terms both for the police and for VOSA. They also release police officers for front-line duties when they would otherwise have had to stop vehicles for VOSA, as they used to do in the past.

The main problem is that these arrangements do not apply in Scotland, which currently commits the police to having to support VOSA at roadside enforcement checks. The draft regulations before the Committee today will resolve that problem. Under the provisions of the draft regulations, VOSA officers appointed by the Secretary of State will be able to stop commercial vehicles for checking throughout Britain without having to have a police officer present. The main benefit that this will bring is that it will release a significant amount of police resources in Scotland that are currently taken up in assisting VOSA with this task.

The regulations will also simplify the process of accrediting VOSA stopping officers. The proposal is that VOSA stopping officers will, in future, be appointed by the Secretary of State for Transport—in practice, that would be done by the chief executive of VOSA—rather than by individual chief officers of police. Of course, no one will be authorised as a stopping officer until they have successfully completed all the necessary training, which will be equivalent to the training that stopping officers in England and Wales currently have to undertake. The benefit of simplifying the process of appointing stopping officers will be in reducing the administrative burden on both the police and VOSA.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bradshaw]

Before the Minister does so, I point out to the noble Lord that in Northern Ireland we had an international border and many of the international troubles to which he has referred, which the stopping officers dealt with. The flagrant breaches of the law by lorries from one side of the border were often caught. VOSA officers have the power, as do Customs and Excise officers, to immobilise the vehicle. If there is any trouble, the police can be called anyway, but the officers have powers to stop the vehicle. That is the big sanction.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. Clearly, these regulations enable VOSA examiners to stop commercial vehicles for inspections that they routinely carry out at the roadside. These checks are on the roadworthiness conditions of vehicles and on whether the driver is complying with all relevant laws, including the particular law on maximum permissible time spent behind the wheel.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, made one or two points and was generally supportive. The stopping powers relate only to VOSA; no other agency can be legitimately associated with those roadside checks. The point about census checks could perhaps be looked at in future; I do not think that I can say anything about that, but I shall take it back to the department. The current priority is to enable VOSA to complete its duties throughout Great Britain.

The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, made several points. I am delighted that I had some degree of notice on one or two of them, but not necessarily on all—if we cannot cover them all, we will have to write. He asked whether chief constables would be happy to let people work completely independently. VOSA officers will continue to maintain close links with the police. They have already been stopping vehicles in England and Wales since 2002—nine years—and there have been no problems. These regulations will allow VOSA to stop vehicles in a similar way in Scotland. They have the support of ACPO in Scotland and the Scottish Government.

The noble Viscount asked whether the fact that VOSA will be working on its own would encourage criminals to take advantage. VOSA officers will continue to maintain strong links with the police; even though they have the power to stop vehicles for inspection, they still have those strong links. In the event that they encounter any difficulty, they will immediately request assistance from the police in the normal way.

The noble Viscount asked how VOSA stopping officers will be trained. They will need to complete an intensive police driver training course before being appointed and an in-house training course to familiarise them with the extent and limitations of the powers—for example, the fact that VOSA officers are under no circumstances allowed to chase suspect vehicles. They will not be permitted to have blue lights. Their vehicles will have stopping matrix signs that request drivers to follow the vehicle to a safe stopping point, as they do at present.

The noble Viscount also asked whether VOSA has the necessary budget to provide a 24/7 service by stopping officers. Obviously, there is a limit to resources, just as there is for the police, and priorities have to be targeted. In some areas—on the main arterial roads into Britain, for example—VOSA can provide a 24/7 service, as it does. In other cases, it has fewer resources available but will rely on intelligence to determine when it is best to run enforcement exercises.

The noble Viscount asked whether in time the regulations could be extended to all vehicles. There are no plans to seek to extend the scope of these regulations to cover any other classes of vehicle. The law could be amended in the future, but that is not contemplated at the moment. VOSA’s main priority is commercial vehicles, not cars—cars are primarily a matter for the police.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, asked how the VOSA officers would be identified. While on duty, they will be required to wear a uniform that is unique to them; to carry clear identification; and to be in clearly marked vehicles that have a black and yellow Battenberg livery, are clearly marked “VOSA” and have amber light bars on the roof.

The noble Lord asked questions and commented on the extent to which there are more vehicles on the road. He referred to foreign commercial vehicles in particular. He will be interested to learn that, in 2006-07, 56,596 roadside checks on foreign vehicles were made by VOSA. In 2009-10, that figure had increased to 177,460. Those figures come from the most recent random fleet compliance survey and VOSA’s effectiveness report.

I trust that I have answered the bulk of the queries, as I have endeavoured to do. I will carefully check that nothing that I ought to have responded to is outstanding. As I have indicated, the purpose of the regulations is to create an efficient and effective mechanism for stopping commercial vehicles throughout Great Britain so that they and their drivers can be checked by VOSA examiners. These checks cover a wide range of compliance issues affecting vehicles and their drivers; they are necessary to keep our roads as safe as possible.

Historically, the police have stopped vehicles for VOSA, but it has to be said that that does not necessarily make the very best use of their valuable time. Of course, they have many other pressing priorities, which only they can deal with. For that reason, VOSA was given the opportunity in 2002 to stop vehicles for roadworthiness enforcement checks in England and Wales. That arrangement worked well in practice and we are now seeking to extend that practice to other types of compliance checks and to extend the new system throughout Britain. As well as making the process easier for VOSA, the new provisions will help to free up police resources in Scotland in a similar way for core policing priorities. The new provisions will also make easier the process of appointing VOSA stopping officers and provide a useful minor clarification of the relevant equivalent law in Northern Ireland. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they are giving to the motion passed by the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly on 22 November 2010 which noted the delay in the introduction of a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, as promised in the Belfast agreement, and called upon Her Majesty’s Government to fulfil their obligation in that regard.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to maintaining human rights protection in Northern Ireland and fulfilling our obligations under the Belfast agreement. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Minister of State recently met human rights organisations in Northern Ireland and stressed the difficulty of making progress without political consensus within Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Assembly. We will continue to consider how best to address this issue in the coming months.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, that is not a very satisfactory Answer because it gives a veto to the Stormont parties and it is not their prerogative to exercise that veto. Is what my noble friend said the agreed policy of the coalition? If it is, which Liberal Democrat Ministers participated and concurred in that agreement?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, that is an interesting one. I am not the Minister; I am the Whip.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I make it quite clear; I am the Whip and there are two Ministers in the House of Commons. Noble Lords will remember that we had the general election, following which the number of Members of Parliament in each party was rather different. Under the coalition agreement, the number of Liberal Democrat Members who became Ministers was rather smaller than the number of Conservative Members who became Ministers. My noble friend’s right honourable friend and mine, Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, paid a three-day visit to Northern Ireland in October, and I also had a three-day visit. Even though I am not a Minister, I endeavour to influence events and I hope to have a degree of success in that. Alongside my noble friend as the Liberal Democrat Back-Bench co-chair for the policy committee on Northern Ireland, Mr Stephen Lloyd, MP for Eastbourne, has recently been appointed to serve as the House of Commons co-chair.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I remind the Minister, with respect, that he speaks on behalf of the Government as a whole. The Government have pledged to bring in a British Bill of Rights. I wonder what that means for Northern Ireland and whether the Government are going to pursue a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights and a separate Bill of Rights for the United Kingdom. I should be grateful for the views of the noble Lord the Minister.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I shall endeavour to speak for the Government. I was just giving the facts as to who is the Minister and who is the Whip. I hold the latter position, and I think noble Lords will find that that situation existed when we had a different Government. The noble Baroness may recall that the Belfast agreement came into being on 10 April 1998. It was agreed that there would be an Assembly with full legislative and executive authority for the six Northern Ireland government departments. Furthermore, it was agreed that the European Convention on Human Rights would be embraced in any Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that supplemented it. Of course, it is 13 years since the Belfast agreement and things do not stay still. We got a Human Rights Act in December 1998. The devolved Assembly has these powers and from time to time legislative consent motions are required. On 16 February—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

If you want the answer you can have it—the Prime Minister announced that a group of people would be put together for a human rights Act for Britain. Therefore, the Belfast agreement has to embrace those other three factors.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Belfast agreement brought benefits to the peoples of both states in the island of Ireland? Can he recall that there were obligations on the Dublin Government in that agreement to create a human rights commission, to ratify the Council of Europe’s convention on national minorities, and to legislate for employment equality and for respect of the different traditions in the island? Can he confirm whether any of those four requirements have been honoured yet by the Dublin Government? For those that have not been honoured, will he make representations to the new Government elected in the south of Ireland a few weeks ago?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as I indicated earlier, I will do my best to speak for this Government. It is someone else’s job to speak for the Government of Ireland. However, in another coalition agreement, between Fine Gael and Labour in the south, there is one line that the Belfast agreement and the St Andrews agreement “shall be honoured”. If that is in their coalition agreement, it applies to them as it does here, and I will see to it that I write accordingly.

[Lord Glentoran]

My Lords, I want to clarify a couple of things. While shadow Minister in opposition, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, I and others in the team undertook that once the United Kingdom Government set up their own human rights Bill, Northern Ireland would have its share of it. That is where I still stand, and I suspect that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is in a similar position.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I am not absolutely clear about the question, but the Government are possessed of the fact of honouring the Belfast agreement. Within that there has to be a human rights element for Northern Ireland. What is not absolutely written in stone is that that has to be very separate.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on the reality that the Belfast agreement does not impose an obligation on the Government to legislate on the human rights question; rather, it imposes an obligation on them to receive the report of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission? Rather more profoundly, that report is supposed to be based on the principle of “parity of esteem” for the “two traditions”. That is explicitly said in the Belfast agreement. The Northern Ireland Assembly has in effect rejected the idea that it is so based. Is it not at this stage for those who believe in human rights legislation to carry on the argument in Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether minds can be changed?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

It certainly is. The Northern Ireland Assembly voted by 46 votes to 42 that it did not want separate human rights legislation. There is an election, and things might well change following that election. If a united front in the Northern Ireland Assembly said that that is what it wanted, obviously the British Government would take due notice.

International Women's Day

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, I offer warm praise for the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely—that is, Ely in Cardiff. We were fellow Labour Members of the European Parliament for 15 years, as she has said. She is, and will remain, a deeply cherished and admired friend. In 1994, when we both became MEPs, she was, as she said, the youngest Member. I never ceased to be impressed by the way that she juggled travelling to and from Brussels and Strasbourg with caring for two young and delightful children. Her fine maiden speech has shown her qualities of energy and passion for justice and she is a formidable feminist. She is forthright, feisty and steeped in politics. Her father was a very political vicar in Cardiff. She grew up in Ely, often sharing the vicarage with needy members of her father’s flock. Today she has shown that energy and passion, which I have grown to love, and her determination to continue to fight for justice, which I know will be valued by us all on all sides of the House.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, not just for initiating the debate but for her unrelenting and unwavering support and fight for the rights of women. In 1911, women and men celebrated the first International Women’s Day. At that time, life expectancy for women in Britain was 55. They did not have the right to vote and certainly my grandmothers lived a life of toil and drudgery with little education or healthcare.

Gender discrimination is pervasive and pernicious and to varying degrees women and girls simply do not enjoy equal access to resources, opportunities and political power in any region of our world. Women are disproportionately affected by poverty and violence and make up most of the world’s poor and illiterate people. The millennium development goal targets will not be met in any of the countries where the needs and status of women are a low priority. Does the Minister agree that gender equity, given the multiplier effect it has on the MDGs, is the most important linkage that we need to address?

I have met many wonderful women across the world who courageously oppose discrimination and tyranny and who face terrible reprisals for their pains. Surely no history, religion or cultural tradition can justify any tolerance of the injustice and inequality that millions of women face. We see what Hillary Clinton has called a “pandemic of violence” against women. Mass rape is routinely used as a weapon of war and far too often impunity prevails. I have met and talked to women in Darfur who have been raped and abused as they collected firewood outside their camps, and to women in the eastern Congo who have been raped on their way home from market. What does one say to such tortured, impoverished and war-weary women who know that they have no judicial redress and that they will live with that stigma for the rest of their lives? The women that I met in the Congo had been brutally raped and left for dead. Dr Mukwege operates in the Panzi hospital on something like 3,500 women a year who have been raped. On his lapel he wears a badge which says, “Don’t stand idly by”. I will never forget those women or, most of all, the concern that they showed not for themselves but for what had happened to their missing children.

In south Sudan last week the all-party parliamentary group met parliamentarians, including a number of women, who looked forward to a future which guaranteed a secular state with a strong commitment to equal treatment and positive measures to ensure the selection and election of women. However, that new country will face enormous challenges and expectations are high. In south Sudan a 15 year-old girl has a higher chance of dying in childbirth than she does of finishing primary school. We visited the hospital in Juba where the major cause of death in childbirth is haemorrhaging. Many women die but there is no blood bank in that hospital with which to save them. In the north we met women in Khartoum who told us about a retrenchment of fundamentalist views and an even greater imposition of draconian laws driven by a religious ideology intent on oppressing women. Will the Government urgently respond to these concerns? These are surely strong reasons why we need the United Nations women’s agency to be up and running. It is simply not acceptable for the Government to postpone making a firm funding pledge until the board meeting in June when UN Women will present its first annual plan. How is UN Women meant to prepare, hire staff and open regional offices when it has no predictable funding from donors such as the UK in this transitional period? Equity for women is clearly a matter of justice but we should confirm today that it is also a political, economic and social imperative.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I fear that I need to remind noble Lords and noble Baronesses that this is a timed debate and that we will run into difficulty if speakers take longer than their allotted time. That will eat into the time that the Minister has to respond to so many splendid speeches, so I hope that speakers will be succinct.

Railways: Intercity Express and Electrification

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, with permission I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport. The Statement is as follows:

“I wish to make a Statement on the Government’s plans for the extension of the electrification of the Great Western main line and for the procurement of a replacement for the existing diesel intercity trains. These two issues are closely connected.

I turn first to the provision of a new generation of intercity 125 mile per hour trains to take advantage of the electrification of the Great Western main line and to allow for the phasing out of most of the ageing diesel InterCity 125s.

In February 2009, the intercity express programme, launched by the previous Government, identified Agility Trains, a consortium of Hitachi Rail (Europe) Ltd and John Laing plc, as the preferred bidder to provide a new fleet of intercity trains. Subsequently, the previous Government placed this process on hold and ordered a review of the procurement by Sir Andrew Foster. Last summer, recognising the fiscal challenges that the UK faces and the challenges that the new Government’s plans for high-speed rail to Leeds and Manchester introduce, Agility put forward an improved, lower-cost proposal, which provides the required service through a mixed IEP fleet—some all-electric trains and some with a combination of electric and diesel power, allowing them to operate through services beyond the electrified railway. This proposal retained the more modern electric InterCity 225s on the east coast main line, as the previous Administration had proposed.

We have reviewed this proposal against the alternative of an all-electric fleet with purpose-built diesel locomotives being coupled to trains to haul them beyond the electrified railway. Either way, this would represent a multibillion pound investment for this country, underpinning the operation of intercity services on the conventional railway for many years to come, and it is imperative that the right choice is made.

As I said at the time of my Statement to the House on 25 November, there were complex legal, technical and commercial issues to be addressed. Both the Government and Agility Trains as preferred bidder recognised this. Over the past few months we have worked together on these issues and I can now announce that I am resuming the IEP procurement and proceeding with the proposal that Agility Trains put forward as preferred bidder. We will now work with Agility Trains with a view to reaching financial close by the end of the year. This is, of course, subject to the Government continuing to be satisfied that the proposal offers value for money as the commercial negotiations are concluded and that the final arrangements are compliant with the United Kingdom’s EU obligations.

This deal will allow us to provide better, faster, more comfortable services and to continue providing through journeys between London and parts of the rail network that are not electrified. In total, there will be over 11,000 more peak-time seats each day on the Great Western main line and east coast main line on the IEP trains, compared to today.

Hitachi is today confirming its plans to locate its European train manufacturing and assembly centre at Newton Aycliffe in County Durham. This investment is expected to create at least 500 direct permanent jobs, as well as hundreds of temporary construction jobs. Thousands more job opportunities will be created in the UK manufacturing and service supply chains. Coming just days after the news of the reopening of the Redcar steelworks, this is a massive and very welcome shot in the arm for the skilled workforces of the north-east’s industrial heartland.

I turn now to the related issue of electrification of the Great Western main line. I announced to the House on 25 November that, over the next six years, Network Rail will electrify the commuter services on the Great Western main line from London to Didcot, Oxford and Newbury. I recognise that this announcement, although welcomed in the Thames valley, left unanswered the clear aspirations of rail users further west for the extension of electrification to Bristol and into Wales. I and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales have subsequently considered the options for extending electrification alongside the Government’s consideration of the proposals for replacement of the current diesel intercity trains, and in close consultation with the Welsh Assembly Government.

We have concluded that there is a case for extending electrification westwards to Bristol and Cardiff and I am today asking Network Rail to add this major extension to its electrification programme immediately. This is good news for Wales and the south-west against a backdrop of public spending constraint, as we deal with the legacy of debt that we have inherited. Bringing electrification to Cardiff will mean that we are linking, for the first time, the capital cities of England, Scotland and Wales by electrified rail. These measures will deliver a London to Cardiff journey time of one hour and 42 minutes and will shave 22 minutes off the London to Bristol journey.

I have received representations calling for electrification of the Great Western main line to be extended as far west as Swansea. We have looked carefully at the arguments. The business case for electrification is heavily dependent on the frequency of service. Services between London and Swansea currently operate at a frequency of only one train an hour off-peak. There is no evidence of a pattern of demand that would be likely to lead imminently to an increase in this frequency. Consequently, I regret to say that there is not, at present, a viable business case for electrification of the main line between Cardiff and Swansea.

Because of the decision to proceed with Agility’s proposal for a bi-mode train, journey times from London to Swansea will be shortened to two hours and 39 minutes—20 minutes faster than today—with trains switching automatically to diesel power as they leave Cardiff. Because the constraining factor on the south Wales main line is speed limitations dictated by the geometry of the line, there would be no time-saving benefits from electrifying the line from Cardiff to Swansea. However, the policy of the Government is to support a progressive electrification of the rail network in England and Wales, for environmental among other reasons. My right honourable friend and I will therefore keep under active review the business case for future electrification of the Great Western main line between Cardiff and Swansea in the light of future service patterns.

I have a further announcement to make to the House. In the course of the examination of the case for electrification in south Wales that my right honourable friend and I have undertaken, we have established, at an initial high level, that a good case appears to exist for electrifying the key valley commuter lines north of Cardiff via Pontypridd and Caerphilly to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil, Coryton and Rhymney, as well as the lines to Penarth and Barry Island to the west. My department will therefore work with the Welsh Assembly Government to develop a full business case for the electrification of the Cardiff valley lines within the next rail investment control period, beginning in 2014. The Welsh Assembly Government will need, in parallel, to consider the case for specifying suitable electric trains for these routes when the Wales and Borders franchise is relet in 2018. This would, of course, be a prerequisite for electrification to proceed, and the timetable for franchise reletting and respecification necessarily dictates the timescale of this proposed electrification.

On the basis of our preliminary evaluation, the valleys electrification represents the best value-for-money rail electrification investment that can be made in Wales. It promises to bring all the benefits of electric commuter trains—faster acceleration, greater comfort and cleaner, greener travel—to rail users in south Wales. It would have a significant effect on the economy of Cardiff and the valleys, deepening labour markets, improving connectivity and significantly enhancing the attractiveness of the area to investors. Coupled with the electrification of the Great Western main line, this represents a major boost to the economy of south Wales as a whole.

These three decisions—on intercity express, Great Western main line electrification and electrification of the valley commuter lines—represent a major further investment in UK rail infrastructure, following the announcements that I have already made on Crossrail, Thameslink, Tube upgrades, Thames valley and north-western electrification and additional rolling stock. They sit alongside the Government’s proposals for high-speed rail, the consultation on which I announced to the House in a Written Statement yesterday, as testimony to this Government’s commitment to investment in the future of Britain’s railways. They represent excellent news for passengers on the Great Western main line and the east coast main line, for commuters on the Cardiff valley lines and for the economies of south Wales and north-east England as a whole”.

I commend this Statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his comments regarding my noble friend Lord Attlee, who I certainly hope will soon be fit and well. It is of course a joy to be presenting a good-news story, which is exactly how the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has seen it, too. I thank him for that and for having the grace to understand that good-news stories can emanate from this Dispatch Box.

The noble Lord raised an interesting point about Swansea. I understand the disappointment, but the two things are linked, in that getting the intercity express train, which is electro-diesel, means that no one has to get out at Cardiff to get on to a connecting train, nor do they have to wait the 10 minutes or so for a diesel engine to be put on to the front. The train goes straight forward. Because of the nature of the track between Cardiff and Swansea, that journey time will be the same whether it is electrified or not. To that extent, there is no sense in these proposals that Swansea is being done down. Indeed, as I said in repeating the Statement, although the case is not at present viable, the Government propose to go on with further electrification and it may well be that an extension comes at some future time. I am grateful that the noble Lord referred to the valleys. This is, of course, a new scheme, which has not been raised previously. It will do a great deal for the area around Cardiff.

I particularly want to comment on the noble Lord’s concern about the long-term infrastructure. It is quite interesting that this is an interlude from talking about the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, on which I make no comment whatsoever. Yet however long the term is, of the terms that have been mentioned, those terms are often longer than it takes to get a major infrastructure project going. It will be towards the end of this Parliament that we see some wires and trains in some of the electrification proposals being put forward. It will certainly be into our next Parliament when we see more of that.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, will my noble friend convey to the Secretary of State in another place our warmest congratulations for a surprisingly upbeat Statement? It is probably one of the best that I have ever heard, but will he take back two or three small points? First, if we are to have electrification to south Wales, before anybody starts any engineering work we must have the line between Swindon and Kemble doubled so that we maintain a reliable connection between London and south Wales and vice versa.

Secondly, the procurement process for Agility Trains has been extraordinarily long-winded and expensive. It has employed a lot of consultants. Will my noble friend try to convey to the Secretary of State the need, in the new franchises, to simplify the acquisition of new rolling stock? That is something which the Department for Transport is singularly ill-equipped to do. I believe that we need to bring the train operators much closer to the process.

Lastly, would my noble friend remind the Secretary of State that there is no reason why some of the journey times between south Wales and London should not be shortened by, I believe, up to 15 minutes? That could be done by using the current equipment but taking out the intermediate stops which have been placed on those services at places such as Swindon, Didcot and Reading—again, I believe, at the behest of his own department.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comments. I immediately looked at my railway map and thought, “What does this mean in terms of the construction period?”, particularly for the tunnel to south Wales and the electrification thereof. Clearly, there is the problem of that single line between Swindon and Kemble. I am told that much of the work is likely to take place at night. However, there is work going on at the moment, with Network Rail looking at its next programme of work from 2014-19. There is still a possibility that, if it is really believed that it would enhance the diversionary route for that period when work is taking place, it could be considered or, indeed, brought forward.

Secondly, on procurement, the likelihood is that there will be longer franchises in future, which may well mean that my noble friend Lord Bradshaw has his wishes in that regard. One feature of this procurement is the knock-on effect of various proposals and the fact that Agility Trains may well mean agility, in terms of trains moving from place to place. For example, if ultimately there were to be electrification to Swansea after this programme, you could then have all-electric trains while the electro-diesels could go somewhere else where they can go under the wires and not be where the line is electric. There is a sense in which this proposal is about more than one train company and one piece of work.

Concerning the third item, the journey times on the Great Western main line, we all know that the Thames valley has, over the years, become something of a honey-pot. Places such as Swindon and Reading have grown and grown, so commercial reasons have meant that more trains have stopped at those places rather than being express trains. With electrification, the likelihood is that there will be more trains—there are plans to have them—and fast trains. I cannot guarantee that there will be any enhancement in services prior to electrification but I will pass back to the department the comments that my noble friend has made.

[Lord Berkeley]

I congratulate the noble Lord on this Statement, which is very positive, as my noble friend has said. It has resolved many of the uncertainties surrounding the whole of the Great Western network in terms of electrification, new trains and everything else.

I just draw his attention to one issue that needs a little more resolution: the section between Reading and London and the relationship with Crossrail. As noble Lords will know, Reading station is being subject to a major upgrade, which is very welcome too. At the moment, however, the Crossrail services are due to stop at Maidenhead, where I believe construction work has started on a big maintenance facility. Most people think that it would be much better if Crossrail trains went on to Reading, which is a major interchange; I do not think anyone would suggest that Maidenhead was the centre of the universe when it comes to changing trains. That would also avoid having a separate shuttle train, which I think is still planned to be a diesel, between Reading and Slough, stopping at Maidenhead. Reading station is being extended to take Crossrail trains, but there has been no decision on where they will go.

I have one final suggestion that my noble friend could pass on to the Secretary of State. It is very welcome that there will be 11,000 more peak-time seats with these new trains, but there is still an enormous demand for fast services between Reading and Paddington. It may be that there should be some faster services as well as the stopping Crossrail services to take up some of the slack, so that the seats are not empty all the way from Reading to Swansea.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his comments and hear what he says about Reading and the extension of Crossrail beyond Maidenhead. Of course, until there was certainty of the electrification, I do not think that that could have been planned; clearly, it can now be planned. I am not sighted of any specific plans of today as to trains terminating at Maidenhead or going forward to Reading, but I believe that that is likely to be the case. Indeed, they may even go further, to Oxford. It is likely that that will be embraced, and this electrification means that that is possible.

[Lord Walpole]

I would like to take the Minister on a little trip. If he went to Westminster station and got on the Circle line, he would end up somewhere near Liverpool Street station. Liverpool Street station and Norwich are 111 miles apart and the line is electric, but the trains that we have there are—I was told yesterday—well over 40 years old. The rails and the catenas are frankly not of the quality that one would need for a fast train. The signalling is still very bad. It is appalling, in fact. The staff on the trains and the station have been trained to be nice and to keep you informed the whole time, which is wonderful; I think they deserve something for that. Every time the train stops in the wrong place, someone tells you why you have stopped there—or at least he tries to find out. Also, on this line is the rather important train for the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, which runs from Felixstowe to the Midlands, but you cannot go from Felixstowe to the Midlands yet. You can get under the bridge—through the tunnel—at Ipswich, but you have to come all the way down to London to go all the way back again. You have to do another 20 kilometres. Minister, this is a very important bit: it would relieve the main line to Norwich.

[Lord Walpole]

I am coming to the question now. If you go to Norwich, you can go to Liverpool Lime Street or London Liverpool Street, but you have to get on the right train—they are not in the same place.

When are we going to have some new trains? That is the question.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, it is good to have the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Walpole, and for him to extol the virtue of rail travel to Norwich. I am afraid, however, that I cannot say much about that. I leave that to someone else on another occasion. What the announcement means is that the new train will be electro-diesel. At some point you may even be able to go from London to Norwich and then a diesel will take you on to Great Yarmouth. That could well be possible because of this new way forward. He can at least have the comfort that there are these possibilities of enhancement. I have nothing to say at the moment, I regret to say, on further electrification beyond that which has been announced—or indeed on any other enhancements other than those in the Statement. However, the noble Lord knows about campaigning and knows how to make the case, and I am sure that he will continue—just as he has this evening—to do that.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware how warmly welcomed this announcement will be in the north-east of England, which is the home of the railways, of Stephenson and of the Stockton and Darlington Railway? This is a fantastic announcement for the north-east, which comes on the back of that great announcement of the planned reopening of the Teesside Cast Products at Redcar and the thousands of jobs that that will mean, which itself came on the back of announcements about the Tyne and Wear Metro upgrade of half a billion pounds. This is a huge amount of good news and demonstrates this Government’s commitment to that region. Would he care to contrast that announcement with the time a year ago when the Labour Cabinet arrived in Durham to mothball the TCP plant at Redcar and to postpone the announcement on Agility Trains? Would he care to contrast those two approaches to manufacturing in the north-east of England?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am grateful for the comments my noble friend Lord Bates. Clearly, as a north-easterner, he is very concerned and happy that there is to be investment there. He is quite right to point out the change that has taken place. This positive piece of work will go on there. Not only will north-east England benefit from new employment opportunities, there will be the possibility of even greater employment opportunities because of the railway factory and other places that will enhance and put further work there. He is right that this is a real piece of work about which the coalition Government can be really be proud. As I say, this is a real good news story.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, it is not often that I welcome a decision of this Government, let alone feel inclined to congratulate the Government on anything. The only other major infrastructural decision they have taken over the past nine months—the decision to veto the third runway for Heathrow—was absolutely deplorable. However, today I really congratulate them. Those three projects are going to be enormously important for the economy of the country and clearly the most important one of all is the high-speed rail link. Will the Government do everything possible to accelerate these projects now this decision has been taken? We in this country generally take far too long to implement infrastructural projects. The longer such projects take to be built and to be commissioned, the more you postpone both the internal return and the external return and the more you damage the economics of the initial decision. Will the Government take a close look at the lead time for such projects in France, Germany and Spain between a decision being taken and the first high-speed train running, and will he try to make sure that they treat that as a target, which this country should seek to beat?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for his contribution. I hear exactly what he says about lead time, and I will take back to the department his comments on that. Let us hope that these things can be speeded up.

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, future travellers to Swansea will have to travel in the bimode train for about 35 miles. By comparison, London-to-Inverness travellers will need a bimode electro-diesel for 180 miles and those who travel on the hard road up to Aberdeen will need that for 150 miles. With regards to the split between pure electric and electro-diesel, can my noble friend please tell us whether there will be enough electro-diesels in the programme to cover such routes? Also, will the electro-diesels have enough power to handle the Drumochter and Slochd summits?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am not able to give details of the power that the trains will have to tackle the road to Inverness, but they are going to be brand new and had better be right for purpose. My noble friend makes a good point. Although I suppose he would love the electric wires to go to Aberdeen and Inverness, I do not think that that is on the list at the moment. However, the beauty of the bimodal system is that diesel trains will not go from London to Inverness under the wire; they will be electric to Edinburgh and will then turn to diesel on the way to Aberdeen. Therefore, the people in Aberdeen and Inverness, and those at points between Edinburgh and those places, will benefit from the electric railway between London and Edinburgh.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, a popular pub question is: what do Albania and Wales have in common? The answer is that they are two nations in Europe without a single mile of electrified railway. I warmly welcome the Statement that the Minister has made today because that is now going to be put right so far as concerns Wales, and I am delighted that the decision has been taken, after initial hesitancy some months ago, to extend the wires through the Severn tunnel into Cardiff. I think that the Minister or his colleagues will have to deal with the Welsh Assembly Government’s disappointment. They have certainly been campaigning very hard for the electrification to continue to Swansea. However, the news of the valley electrification is particularly welcome. The diesel multiple units that currently serve those lines are already life-expired, and the opportunity for new journeys and new trains is very welcome.

Perhaps I may be allowed one further comment. Today’s Statement is a very welcome, and clearly bipartisan, extension of the policy concerning the railway begun by my noble friend Lord Adonis. It was he who got the debate on High Speed 2 up and running and it was he who made the announcement on electrification. I certainly commend the Government for picking up the baton where he laid it down in May. I warmly welcome that and I think that my noble friend deserves some credit for it as well.

Perhaps I may ask a specific question, which the Minister has already been asked by his noble friend Lord Bradshaw, concerning the need to improve the line between Swindon and Gloucester. It is not just a diversionary line; it is an important service which already has an hourly train in each direction. However, when the Severn tunnel is closed, as it will be for part of the electrification works, it is going to be crucial that that line is double-tracked again. It was a very short-sighted decision to take the double track out.

I have one other specific question. Is it intended that the bimodal train which operates on the Great Western main line will be electric as far as Oxford and then diesel-powered on the Cotswold line to Worcester and Hereford? I should declare an interest as president of the Cotswold line promotion group and as an unpaid member of the First Great Western advisory board.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and pay tribute to his service, and indeed that of his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in the latter part of the previous Government at the Department for Transport. There may be disappointment in Wales about the line from Cardiff to Swansea but there will of course be rejoicing about the valleys. The Government have looked at this matter in great detail and have concluded that, in terms of value for money and the return, it is a better bet to look at the valleys than at Cardiff to Swansea, particularly when there is now a prospect of a bimodal system for Cardiff to Swansea.

I note the noble Lord’s comments about the Gloucester line. Indeed, in the couple of hours that I had to look at this issue and discuss it with the department, I said, “Just a minute. Not only is there the prospect of this line being needed because of the tunnel being closed and construction work and so on, but, as I understand it, this is being looked at in its own right anyway”. Therefore, there could well be double the case for improving this line. I hope, and believe, that it will be considered very seriously.

I am not sighted on any proposals for bimodal trains to go beyond Oxford, although of course that is a possibility. Bimodal means that the wire can be used to Oxford and you can then go beyond that with the diesel system.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 17 January be approved.

Relevant Documents: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 7 February

Motion agreed.

Water Supply: Northern Ireland

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance they provided to the Northern Ireland authorities during their recent difficulties with water supplies.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, during the period of extreme cold weather, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland met the devolved Ministers with policy responsibility in this area and offered the Government’s assistance. He subsequently discussed the matter with the Secretary of State for the Environment and with Water UK, and helped to identify additional call-centre capacity to deal with the heavy volume of calls from customers in Northern Ireland who had suffered disruption.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. I am reassured to hear that there was additional call-centre capacity, but I wonder what additional water was supplied.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

As far as water is concerned, there is no shortage of water in Northern Ireland. The good Lord makes good provision. The problem is getting the water to where it is needed. Extra water was pumped into the pipes but the problem was that some of that leaked out. However, the call centres were very important indeed and we must not forget that. An offer of assistance was made by the First Minister of Scotland—a sort of Christmas gift—and 160,000 litres of Scotland's water were taken across to Northern Ireland. I am sure that those in Northern Ireland were very pleased to have it. However, Northern Ireland's daily consumption of water is 625,000,000 litres. In other words, the gift from Scotland, welcome though it may have been, was 0.000256 per cent of a day’s water usage.

[Lord Rogan]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the people of Northern Ireland were greatly appreciative of the generous donation of Scottish water to Northern Ireland? Will he confirm that the Sinn Fein/IRA Minister, Conor Murphy, the Minister responsible for water in Northern Ireland, declined to ask for aid from a British Government or agency to the people of Northern Ireland in their hour of need?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I would not detract from the Scottish generosity to Northern Ireland. I am aware that the Minister in Northern Ireland was involved in discussions with my honourable friend. It is not clear to me whether he believed that there was a request that he ought to make. Assistance was offered to him in regard to the call centres. I would like people to understand that more than 400,000 people on one day tried to telephone Northern Ireland Water and only 4,000 of those calls were answered. Therefore, bringing in the call centres, which were available through Water UK, a UK and Northern Ireland-wide body, was a tremendous help to people who were seeking it.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

Does my noble friend agree that successive Administrations, from the first Stormont through to the second Stormont, to both periods of direct rule and to the Stormont Assembly as now constituted, have totally neglected the refurbishment of water ducts and so on in Northern Ireland and it is now time that they addressed that?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

Something like £2,000 million was invested in water in Northern Ireland in the 18 years up to 2006-07. Since then, a further £1 billion has been invested but it is quite clear that more money is required for investing in the infrastructure. However, acquiring help in the crisis is a different issue compared with long-term involvement in the infrastructure.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, given that the level of rainfall in Northern Ireland is probably not very different from that in the Republic of Ireland, why was there such a serious problem in Northern Ireland when there does not appear to have been one in the south?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I was there at the time, so I can tell the noble Lord that there was a bit of bother in the south as well. Incidentally, a piece of work was published yesterday by the Consumer Council for Northern Ireland showing that the biggest problems were people understanding what was going on, indicating that they had problems, wanting assistance and getting through to those who could help. That was the problem in Northern Ireland. If you look at the 60-page paper that was produced yesterday by the consumer council, you will see that it believes that Northern Ireland Water—these are the council’s views, not mine—was not prepared for an emergency of this type. It has been asking Northern Ireland Water whether it could see the advanced planning in case there is an emergency and it had not had it.

[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, my noble friend has sought to distinguish between the crisis and the long-term structural inadequacy that most people believe is the reality in Northern Ireland. I hope he will not mind me saying that the big problem that the Northern Ireland people had was not a lack of information so much as a lack of water. Does he believe that getting structural change in the hope that such a crisis will not happen again is more likely to take place if the water service is privatised?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, it does not matter what I think about whether it is privatised or not. It is not up to the Government either. This is a devolved matter. You cannot devolve something and then say, “We are going to make the decisions”. The water service in Northern Ireland is a devolved service and it is up to the people in Northern Ireland—I believe there will be an election there before too long—and to those who are elected to decide what sort of water service is required. Northern Ireland and Scotland have state water and in England we have a privatised service. It is their decision because it is a devolved matter; it is not our decision.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011.

Relevant documents: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the order before the Committee today will extend the period in which donations and loans to political parties and others in Northern Ireland must be held confidentially by the Electoral Commission. Noble Lords will be aware that political parties across the United Kingdom must report donations and loans received above certain thresholds to the Electoral Commission.

In Great Britain, the Electoral Commission is under a duty to publish details of these donations. However, due to ongoing concerns about intimidation in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 made provision for details of any donations reported by Northern Ireland political parties to be held confidentially by the commission.

The 2006 Act provided that confidentiality should apply for only a temporary period—referred to in the Act as “the prescribed period”—and would expire on 31 October 2010, unless an order was made by the Secretary of State to extend that. Noble Lords may recall that this House approved a short extension of the prescribed period shortly after the election so that the provisions would expire on 1 March 2011. This was to allow for full consultation to take place on whether the time was right to move to full transparency.

A full 12-week consultation commenced shortly after this extension was approved and concluded on 25 October 2010. A total of 26 responses were received, mainly from members of the public, political parties and the media. Overall, the consultation demonstrated strong support from members of the public and journalists for full and immediate transparency. This was also supported by some political parties, including Sinn Fein, the Alliance Party and the Green Party. The Ulster Unionist Party and Democratic Unionist Party supported the extension of the current arrangements due to ongoing security concerns. The SDLP agreed that donor identities should be kept confidential, but believed that work should be undertaken to bring more transparency to the existing process.

The Electoral Commission also believed that identities should continue to be kept confidential if the Government concluded that the time was not yet right to move to full transparency, but agreed that there was room for greater transparency in the existing arrangements.

The consultation demonstrated that there is strong public support for full and immediate transparency, but also that concerns remain about the possible intimidation of donors. Noble Lords will be aware that, by its very nature, it is difficult properly to quantify levels of intimidation. Nevertheless, there has been a deterioration in recent years in the overall security situation in Northern Ireland. In particular, recent reports of the Independent Monitoring Commission have indicated an increase in paramilitary beatings and shootings.

It is very likely that this rise in violent activity has been accompanied by an increased risk of intimidation and that there would be a threat to the safety of those making donations to Northern Ireland parties if their identities were made known. The Government have therefore reluctantly concluded that the time is not yet right to move to full transparency and that it is necessary to bring forward the order to extend the prescribed period before us this evening.

However, I wish to reassure noble Lords that we have listened carefully to the expressions of support by the general public for more transparency in Northern Ireland. Since the consultation ended, officials have examined the possibility of bringing more transparency to the current process within the existing legislative framework. The Government are particularly concerned that the 2006 Act does not just protect donor identities, but prohibits the release by the commission of any details at all relating to a donation.

We had hoped that the order-making powers in the 2006 Act might allow for secondary legislation to be made to relax the current strict requirements, so that some details of donations and loans might be released—for example, details of the recipient, the amount received and when the donation was made. However, following closer examination, questions have arisen about the extent to which the 2006 Act would permit that. Nevertheless, officials will continue to explore the possibility of further secondary legislation being made to provide for increased transparency. If that is not possible, we will seek to make such provision through primary legislation when a suitable legislative vehicle can be found.

Noble Lords may also be aware that the consultation paper sought views on whether donations and loans made during the prescribed period should be kept confidential when the prescribed period ends. Currently, the 2006 Act provides that details of such donations and loans will be released when the prescribed period expires. Again, the majority of respondents advocated full and immediate transparency, including the release of details of past donations and loans when the prescribed period ends. However, the UUP, DUP, SDLP and Electoral Commission strongly opposed the release of that information. They believe that many donors and recipients did not properly appreciate that the 2006 Act provided for the eventual release of the information and donated in the belief that their identities would not be released, even after the prescribed period had ended. In light of those concerns, the Government will seek a suitable legislative vehicle to make provision to ensure that the information is not released when the prescribed period expires.

In summary, it is with great reluctance that the Government bring forward this order to extend the existing arrangements. We remain committed to achieving complete consistency between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK when it comes to transparency in party funding. However, we cannot ignore the security risks that might arise if donor identities are made known at this time and the implications that it would have on the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland and the political process there more generally. Nevertheless, I hope that noble Lords are reassured that work will continue on doing everything possible to bring greater transparency to the existing arrangements.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful for the clear explanation from the Minister in what is rather a complex area. We note the strong support for lifting the exemption in place in Northern Ireland; I think that 77 per cent of respondents suggested that they were in favour of that. However, despite the enormous progress in Northern Ireland over recent years, we appreciate that the political situation there continues to be sensitive and that caution is required.

It is interesting that 12 per cent of respondents—the same number who supported the Government’s position of no change—supported option 3. As noble Lords know, that option is the current exemption with some modifications—for example, publishing the amounts received, the recipient, and whether the donor was an individual or a company. In principle we support greater transparency in the Northern Ireland political and electoral system but, given the serious and difficult security situation, we understand that a responsible Government need to exercise caution. We consider that option 3, which was canvassed in the Northern Ireland order consultation paper, struck a good balance between protecting the security of the people participating in the political process by providing donations and loans, and the expectation of the public to have transparency in the electoral system.

This is an important order so, as the Committee would expect, I have several questions to put to the Minister. He gave various reasons for continuing the current exemption unamended, but I wondered why the Government happened on two years. What is the rationale for that? He rightly mentioned the intimidation that is taking place. What are the Government planning to do to reduce the risk of intimidation that currently prevents the details being released? Will the Government use the two years’ extension to develop and implement a more transparent system for political donations and loans of the kind considered under option 3?

Paragraph 12 of the Government’s response to the consultation document said that the department would examine the possibilities of making option 3 transparency changes through secondary legislation. It would be helpful to have further clarification on that point. What options and types of transparency changes is the department looking at? What is the originating primary legislation power that would enable such secondary legislation to be made? What is the timeframe for this work? Finally, will the public be consulted on the possible options?

I hope that noble Lords will forgive this raft of questions, but they are very important. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Bew]

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing this order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Smith, I have listened to his words with a degree of disappointment. It is right to say that the limits on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland—remarkable though that progress has been—are shown in that we are still talking about these exemptions and derogations from broader UK electoral law and the transparency of such law.

I am not surprised by the words of the Minister and the proposal put today because the balance of opinion, to my surprise, in Northern Ireland over the past year has been very cautious about changing existing regulations. It has become clear for some time that the Government, if they were to respond to what they were hearing, would have to be relatively cautious in their response. But, having plagued the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, when he was at the Dispatch Box as long ago as 2007 on this matter and having, I think, plagued the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on this matter, it would be hypocritical of me not to record a note of disappointment. I know why the Government have reached this conclusion. I know that they may have been slightly surprised by the degree of concern on the part of the political parties. But having received that, any responsible Government have to pay attention to it.

I simply make the point that Northern Ireland last year was convulsed by public scandals. One of the issues that lay in the background was that of the relationship of certain businessmen to certain political parties. In the rest of the United Kingdom, such matters would be easily sorted out and put into the public domain, but in Northern Ireland we do not know where we stand. That is a difficulty and the step that the Minister is taking is regrettable, if understandable.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith, says that he hopes that there is a two-year limit and that the provision might just lapse in two years. However, having been at this now for four years, I am not quite so secure in that assumption. I hope that he is right. Therefore, I would like to be reassured that the Minister is as clear as he appears to be that the department is looking carefully at work to deal with this by secondary legislation and, if it cannot be done by that method, that primary legislation will be introduced that at least loosens some of the provisions and gives greater openness. I have an uneasy feeling that, in the short term, that will be the best that we can do; I very much hope that I am wrong. Therefore, it is important that the Northern Ireland Office looks carefully at what can be done in certain areas, because I have a feeling that—even two years from now—we will not be looking at the simple lapsing of this legislation.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords for their contributions and will endeavour to respond accordingly. In terms of the Government’s position, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the helpful point that she understands where we are at present. She spoke very much about what she referred to as option 3 of what was put forward in the consultation. She asked why we had said two years. The legislation envisaged extensions of the prescribed period for up to two years, so that is the figure that one can go to and no further without another order. She asked what the Government were doing to reduce intimidation. The Government remain committed to doing everything possible to reduce violent activity in Northern Ireland. We continue to work with the Executive and security agencies to reduce overall paramilitary activity, which should lead to a corresponding decrease in intimidation.

The third point that the noble Baroness raised was about the use of the two years. Clearly, work has to be done—this reverts to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew—on either a new order or primary legislation before too long, because of the issues that noble Lords agreed on, I think, about not releasing past information on the basis that people made donations in the belief that the information about them as donors was not to be released. That would have to be dealt with. Similarly, there could be a system whereby it was not exposed if—for example—the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave £10,000 to a party today, but the facts that there were £10,000, a recipient and a date could be given. As we understand it, that cannot be done under present legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the originating power, which is in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) 2006. I have not got a note about whether there will be a fresh period of consultation. That would be in the spirit of what happens in these matters but there is a sense in which what is planned is clear without further consultation, in that it would be about numbers, dates and the recipient party but not the name of the donor. Perhaps this could be done without a further consultation period, but I do not want to close the door on consultation. That copes with the points.

My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton found it depressing, which I understand, and I wish I was not moving this order. I wish it were rather different, but this is the way it is. This is advice which is given about the security situation in Northern Ireland and what it is right to do. Like him, I would sooner be looking forward.

Over the weekend, I dug out what is on the public record as regards what the parties publish because the parties still have to produce their accounts to be registered with the Electoral Commission. I give this information, which is in the public domain, with one or two health warnings. This relates to the calendar year. All the parties that I shall mention have year ends in December 2009 and, therefore, that does not include what might have been a different year in 2010, when there was a general election.

Five of the parties—the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP, the SDLP and the Alliance Party—have between them 186 accounting units, no doubt constituency associations and so forth. Having looked at what is on record with the Electoral Commission, in the accounting units, there do not appear to be hefty figures labelled as donations. Looking at what is shown by the Northern Ireland-wide parties one sees that the DUP’s income was £348,000 with donations of £126,000; Sinn Fein’s income was £1.177 million and its donations £462,000; the UUP’s income was £392,000 and its donations £21,000; the SDLP’s income was £398,000 and its donations £83,000; the Alliance Party’s income was £151,000 and its donations £16,000; the PUP’s income was £107,000 and its donations £150; the Green’s income was £47,000 and its donations £7,000; the income of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland was £215,000 and its donations £204,000; the Labour Party’s income was £1,450 and it had no donations.

Those figures are available for anyone to look at on the website of the Electoral Commission. However, I cannot vouch that each party has put a donation in its own accounts as a donation which has been seen as recordable on the other side of the book with the Electoral Commission. Many of us might see a heavy subscription as a donation, but it might be called a subscription. There are certain health warnings on that, but it gives an idea of the fact that the Northern Ireland-wide income of the parties in that year was just over £2.8 million and the amount that is listed as donations is just over £900,000. Those are the figures and they give one a feel for the sort of numbers we are talking about.

I think I have covered the points made by noble Lords and I hope that the order will be accepted.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Before the Minister sits down, I want to press him on one question on the option 3 transparency changes that might or might not be brought forward in secondary legislation. What sort of timeframe are we talking about for such secondary legislation?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I cannot be absolute about this. All I can say is that because the extension ends on 1 March, clearly, moves have to be made now to move that further forward. As I understand it, people are working on this within the Northern Ireland Office because there is a general view that at least there will be an element of greater transparency. I certainly hope that we do not have to wait long to see if this can be done without primary legislation. It might be rather more difficult if we have to look at primary legislation.

Motion agreed.

Revised Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1)

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I must begin by declaring a couple of interests. I am the honorary president of the National Skills Academy for Nuclear and the honorary president of the Energy Industries Council. Like the right reverend Prelate, I thank the Minister and the Government for the extent to which they have taken on board the discussions that we had at the earlier stage. The revisions make considerable improvements to the national policy statements. I single out in particular national need. Originally it was referred to as being merely “significant”. As my noble friend will perhaps realise, I tabled an amendment to say that it should be “of critical importance”. The statement has not gone quite as far as that, but the fact that the need is now referred to as being “urgent” makes the point perhaps more simply and is a considerable improvement.

I also applaud the acknowledgement in the statements that we need to look beyond 2025. We have all recognised the importance of the Pathways 2050 paper which the department produced last year. A number of points in these documents reflect that work and I shall return to them in a moment.

I also welcome the proposal to extend CCS beyond just coal. I recognise that CCS for coal is the most important because coal is the greatest pollutant, but the policy statements now recognise that any generating capacity over 300 megawatts should include gas as well as coal. Given that the market in gas is huge, such a move is very valuable. I also welcome the details that have been given in response to both Houses of Parliament on the technical and economic feasibility both of carbon capture and storage and carbon-capture readiness. I shall return to that later, because it raises a few questions.

It is right to mention one or two points which were raised during the consultation with interested organisations but which, so far as I can see, are not reflected in the revised drafts. I am an officer of the All-Party Oil and Gas Group and I have had my attention drawn by Oil & Gas UK to a couple of points. It had argued that there should be an explicit obligation on the IPC or its successor to consider prior established rights for, for example, offshore applications when they have to determine applications under the policy statements. It was disappointed that there was no statement to that effect in the key principles which are in paragraph 4.1.3. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Then, there is a related concern that if there is a conflict between, for instance, offshore oil and gas and the requirements of offshore wind power, the national policy statements do not really represent the scale and complexity and safety requirements of offshore oil and gas activities in the UK’s continental shelf. Too many of the provisions, it will argue, are somewhat woolly and imprecise and leave the resolution of difficulties between offshore wind power and oil and gas simply to be settled by the commercial companies involved. Given the role of DECC in both these matters it would seem to me that there is a case for arguing that there needs to be rather more guidance on this from the department. These are just a couple of points where there is a little disappointment.

I think that we should look at the context—indeed, all the previous speakers have done this—in which we are considering these revised national policy statements. My noble friend mentioned the planning reforms. Like others, I applaud the decision to transfer decision-making from the IPC to Ministers. I would like to say that it would be right to applaud the decision of Sir Michael Pitt, the chairman of the IPC, and of all the members of the commission to agree to work within the new system when the IPC’s functions will be dealt with by the major infrastructure planning unit within the Planning Inspectorate. I have to say that before the election I attached enormous importance to that in my discussions with my colleagues, and it has been achieved. I think that that is wholly admirable.

However, there are certain other planning developments still to come. We are told that there is to be a national planning policy framework and some rationalisation of the planning policy statements—both of which are no doubt very desirable—and everybody agrees that it is vital to build the confidence of investors, particularly for the major energy investments, if these things are to happen. To do that one needs to reduce uncertainty and achieve policy stability. Therefore I ask two things of my noble friend. First, what undertaking can he give to designate these new revised national policy statements as soon as possible after the consultations have been completed? Secondly, given that there are going to be these further developments coming along later, could he ensure that the national policy statements should stand as clear guidance and should slot unscathed into the revised suite of policies and the guidance as they are developed? That is a point that has been put to me and I entirely support it. As has been said, there is to be huge energy investment over the next 10 to 15 years and anything that can achieve certainty on this is to be welcomed.

Can my noble friend tell me something about the future timetable on this? I have been assured by the usual channels that we could, if we wished, repeat last year’s processes and table resolutions that could be debated on the Floor of the House, and that would, in theory, be divisible. I am not sure whether that will be necessary on this occasion as most of these national policy statements will attract wide agreement. I have been told that this will happen in the other place and that there will be a vote on a Motion from the Government to approve the national policy statements. Can my noble friend say whether anything like that is likely to happen in this House?

A few moments ago I referred to the 2025 span for the national policy statements and the 2050 figure in the pathways paper. Perhaps I may draw attention to what was said about that in paragraph 3.3.16 of the overarching statement, which states:

“The Government has therefore considered a planning horizon of 2025 for the energy NPSs in general and for EN-6 in particular, as an interim milestone”.

It is important to notice that phrase. The following paragraph states:

“The Government will keep the relevance of this interim milestone of 2025 for the energy NPSs under review”.

The question that I should like to put to my noble friend is: how will that be done; and when does he anticipate that it will be appropriate to extend the review either in new national policy statements, as he suggested, or in some form of amendment? I will refer to this again on Thursday, because it is particularly important in the consideration of nuclear investment and the need for nuclear sites. I will not dwell on that today, and I hope that the right reverend Prelate will forgive me for that.

I return to the policy statements we are considering today. There are a great many issues to which I am sure noble Lords in all parts of the Grand Committee will wish to refer. I should like to pick out the question of gas infrastructure. I refer to the figures that have been quoted at paragraph 3.8.4 and are the subject of figure 3.1, which makes it clear that there will have to be considerable use of gas over the foreseeable future if we are going to have intermittent renewable energy and sufficient overall energy to keep the lights on. All I can say is that that is a welcome realism. It has not always been apparent in some of the public statements that have been made, but it is only realistic. There are ample supplies of gas. It is much more easily adjustable to the changing patterns of demand and we are inevitably going to use it. Gas will remain a significant source.

However, it is also made clear in the paragraphs that there are uncertainties. In particular the document mentions energy prices. In this context, I was mildly surprised that there is no reference to the comparatively recent advent, especially in the United States, of shale gas. This was mentioned in a briefing sent to a number of us last November by the department. It stated:

“Additional supplies in the US may now have a limited impact on international gas markets (since it is now largely self-sufficient), unless the US were able to export some of this gas”.

I read an article the other day which indicated that although it is true that current plans to convert some of the LNG terminals in the United States to export terminals have for the time being been set aside, the fact of the matter is that the US is now producing shale gas at considerably below the world market gas price. There must therefore come a point when there will be an undoubted incentive to try to use some of that on the world markets and therefore to have an impact on prices. That is likely to have an impact on the balance of gas on our markets here and might at some stage require a revision of the figures to which I referred a few moments ago.

As the right reverend Prelate and others have said, gas is of course a fossil fuel and therefore emits greenhouse gases. If it is going to be a larger part of our energy scene, and if that is undesirable, that implies that other sources will have to be expanded to stop that happening. One sees that the obvious answer, as a very low-carbon source, is more nuclear. That is another point that my noble friend might like to mention.

Other speakers have referred to CCS and carbon-capture readiness. I shall refer to two issues related to that. One is the whole question of carbon dioxide transport and storage, and the other is the process by which the IPC or its successor is to decide on approval, or not, of a CCR plant.

On the question of pipelines and storage, there is a requirement on the IPC under paragraph 3.6.5 to take account of further developments of CCS that will require further carbon transport and storage. This seems to be really quite difficult. The industry itself, in paragraph 4.7.7, is asked when planning its investment to bear in mind further developments. I have always felt that eventually there will have to be a CO₂ grid, or perhaps a series of regional grids, in the country so that one does not have a mass of single pipelines leading to underground storage offshore. Achieving that objective, though, will be very difficult to deliver in practice. How is the IPC expected to take account of future demand? The four demonstration projects, all of which will be CCS, are intended to establish the viability of CCS as an economic and technical possibility. By definition, no one knows what the future investment is going to be, so I find this a difficult concept. I hope that my noble friend might be able to explain. I realise that a lot of this is spelt out in the revisions to EN-1, but I have not been entirely clear about how they are going to work out.

I come to the more difficult, and more problematical, question of CCR, where a plant can be produced but it has to be established that it is carbon-capture ready, and how the IPC is to handle those applications. This will be a very difficult problem. One has to remember that this all came via the European Union.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, even in the benign atmosphere of the Grand Committee, the noble Lord has had 17 minutes and I am afraid that 15 minutes is the recommended time. I do hope that he will be able to conclude his remarks.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I can conclude my remarks extremely briefly by saying that I hope that my noble friend will give us some explanation of how the new guidance on CCR is intended to work, and what the remaining role of the IPC will be in that. I am sorry if I have tested the patience of noble Lords on this, but I think that these are relevant points.