Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I have also put my name to most of the amendments. As with the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, that some of them do not have my name on them is because I arrived too late. Between her and my noble friend Lady Kidron, they have said everything that needs to be said very powerfully. As one who has more recently become involved in a variety of Bills—the Policing and Crime Bill, the Online Safety Bill, and the Victims and Prisoners Bill—in every case trying to fight for and clarify children’s rights, I can say that it has been an uphill battle. But the reason we have been fighting for this is that we have lamentably failed to protect the interests of children for the past two decades as the world has changed around us. All of us who have children or grandchildren, nephews or nieces, or, like me, take part in the Learn with the Lords programme and go into schools, or who deal with mental health charities, are aware of the failure of government and regulators to take account, as the world changed around us, of the effect it would have on children.

In our attempts to codify and clarify in law what the dangers are and what needs to be put in place to try to prevent them, we have had an uphill struggle, regardless of the colour of government. In principle, everyone agrees. In practice, there is always a reason why it is too difficult—or, the easy way out is to say, “We will tell the regulator what our intent is, but we will leave it up to the regulator to decide”.

Our experience to date of the ability of a regulator entirely to take on board what was very clearly the will of Parliament when the Bill became an Act is not being made flesh when it comes to setting out the regulation. Unless it is in an Act and it is made manifestly clear what the desired outcomes are in terms of safety of children, the regulator—because it is difficult to do this well—will not unreasonably decide that if it is too difficult to do, they will settle for something that is not as good as it could be.

What we are trying to do with this set of amendments is to say to the Government up front, “We want this to be as effective as it possibly could be now”. We do not want to come back and rue the consequences of not being completely clear and of putting clear onus of responsibility on the regulators in two or three years’ time, because in another two or three years children will have important parts of their childhood deteriorating quite rapidly, with consequences that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I was one of those who was up even earlier than the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, and managed to get my name down on these amendments. It puts me in a rather difficult position to be part of the government party but to seek to change what the Government have arrived at as their sticking position in relation to this issue in particular—and indeed one or two others, but I have learned to live with those.

This one caught my eye in Committee. I felt suddenly, almost exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Russell said, a sense of discontinuity in relation to what we thought it was in the Government’s DNA—that is, to bring forward the right solution to the problems that we have been seeking to change in other Bills. With the then Online Safety Bill, we seemed to have an agreement around the House about what we wanted, but every time we put it back to the officials and people went away with it and came back with other versions, it got worse and not better. How children are dealt with and how important it is to make sure that they are prioritised appears to be one of those problems.

The amendments before us—and I have signed many of them, because I felt that we wanted to have a good and open debate about what we wanted here—do not need to be passed today. It seems to me that the two sides are, again, very close in what we want to achieve. I sensed from the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that she has a very clear idea of what needs to go into this Bill to ensure that, at the very least, we do not diminish the sensible way in which we drafted the 2018 Bill. I was part of that process as well; I remember those debates very well. We got there because we hammered away at it until we found a way of finding the right words that bridged the two sides. We got closer and closer together, but sometimes we had to go even beyond what the clerks would feel comfortable with in terms of government procedure to do that. We may be here again.

When he comes to respond, can the Minister commit to us today in this House that he will bring back at Third Reading a version of what he has put forward—which I think we all would say does not quite go far enough; it needs a bit more, but not that much more—to make it meet with where we currently are and where, guided by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, we should be in relation to the changing circumstances in both the external world and indeed in our regulator, which of course is going to go through a huge change as it reformulates itself? We have an opportunity, but there is also a danger that we do not take it. If we weaken ourselves now, we will not be in the right position in a few years’ time. I appeal to my noble friend to think carefully about how he might manage this process for the best benefit of all of us. The House, I am sure, is united about where we want to get to. The Bill does not get us there. Government Amendment 18 is too modest in its approach, but it does not need a lot to get it there. I think there is a way forward that we do not need to divide on. I hope the Minister will take the advice that has been given.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend Lady Kidron on Amendment 137. The final comments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, in our debate on the previous group were very apposite. We are dealing with a rapidly evolving and complex landscape, which AI is driving at warp speed. It seems absolutely fundamental that, given the panoply of different responsibilities and the level of detail that the different regulators are being asked to cover, there is on the face of what they have to do with children absolute clarity in terms of a code of practice, a code of conduct, a description of the types of outcomes that will be acceptable and a description of the types of outcomes that will be not only unacceptable but illegal. The clearer that is in the Bill, the more it will do something to future-proof the direction in which regulators will have to travel. If we are clear about what the outcomes need to be in terms of the welfare, well-being and mental health of children, that will give us some guidelines to work within as the world evolves so quickly.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I have co-signed Amendment 137. I do not need to repeat the arguments that have already been made by those who have spoken before me on it; they were well made, as usual. Again, it seems to expose a gap in where the Government are coming from in this area of activity, which should be at the forefront of all that they do but does not appear to be so.

As has just been said, this may be as simple as putting in an initial clause right up at the front of the Bill. Of course, that reminds me of the battle royal we had with the then Online Safety Bill in trying to get up front anything that made more sense of the Bill. It was another beast that was difficult to ingest, let alone understand, when we came to make amendments and bring forward discussions about it.

My frustration is that we are again talking about stuff that should have been well inside the thinking of those responsible for drafting the Bill. I do not understand why a lot of what has been said today has not already appeared in the planning for the Bill, and I do not think we will get very far by sending amendments back and forward that say the same thing again and again: we will only get the response that this is all dealt with and we should not be so trivial about it. Could we please have a meeting where we get around the table and try and hammer out exactly what it is that we see as deficient in the Bill, to set out very clearly for Ministers where we have red lines—that will make it very easy for them to understand whether they are going to meet them or not—and do it quickly?

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and will briefly support them. I state my interest as a governor of Coram, the children’s charity. One gets a strong sense of déjà vu with this Bill. It takes me back to the Online Safety Bill and the Victims and Prisoners Bill, where we spent an inordinate amount of time trying to persuade the Government that children are children and need to be treated as children, not as adults. That was hard work. They have an absolute right to be protected and to be treated differently.

I ask the Minister to spend some time, particularly when her cold is better, with some of her colleagues whom we worked alongside during the passage of those Bills in trying to persuade the then Government of the importance of children being specifically recognised and having specific safeguards. If she has time to talk to the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby, Lord Stevenson and Lord Knight, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton —when she comes out of hospital, which I hope will be soon—she will have chapter, book and verse about the arguments we used, which I hope we will not have to rehearse yet again in the passage of this Bill. I ask her please to take the time to learn from that.

As the noble Baroness said, what is fundamental is not what is hinted at or implied at the Dispatch Box, but what is actually in the Bill. When it is in the Bill, you cannot wriggle out of it—it is clearly there, stating what it is there for, and it is not open to clever legal interpretation. In a sense, we are trying to future-proof the Bill by, importantly, as she said, focusing on outcomes. If you do so, you are much nearer to future-proofing than if you focus on processes, which by their very nature will be out of date by the time you have managed to understand what they are there to do.

Amendment 135 is important because the current so-called safeguard for the Information Commissioner to look after the interests of children is woefully inadequate. One proposed new section in Clause 90 talks of

“the fact that children may be less aware of the risks and consequences associated with processing of personal data and of their rights in relation to such processing”.

It is not just children; most adults do not have a clue about any of that, so to expect children to have even the remotest idea is just a non-starter. To add insult to injury, that new section begins

“the Commissioner must have regard to such of the following”—

of which the part about children is one—

“as appear to the Commissioner to be relevant in the circumstances”.

That is about as vague and weaselly as it is possible to imagine. It is not adequate in any way, shape or form.

In all conscience, I hope that will be looked at very carefully. The idea that the commissioner might in certain circumstances deem that the status and importance of children is not relevant is staggering. I cannot imagine a circumstance in which that would be the case. Again, what is in the Bill really matters.

On Amendment 94, not exempting the provision of information regarding the processing of children’s data is self-evidently extremely important. On Amendment 82, ring-fencing children’s data from being used by a controller for a different purpose again seems a no-brainer.

Amendment 196, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, says, is a probing amendment. It seems eminently sensible when creating Acts of Parliament that in some senses overlap, particularly in the digital and online world, that the left hand should know what the right hand is doing and how two Acts may be having an effect on one another, perhaps not in ways that had been understood or foreseen when the legislation was put forward. We are looking for consistency, clarity, future-proofing and a concentration on outputs, not processes. First and foremost, we are looking for the recognition, which we fought for so hard and finally got, that children are children and need to be recognised and treated as children.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we sometimes forget, because the results are often so spectacular, the hard work that has had to happen over the years to get us to where we are, particularly in relation to the Online Safety Act. It is well exemplified by the previous speaker. He put his finger on the right spot in saying that we all owe considerable respect for the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and others. I helped a little along the way. It is extraordinary to feel that so much of this could be washed away if the Bill goes forward in its present form. I give notice that I intend to work with my colleagues on this issue because this Bill is in serious need of revision. These amendments are part of that and may need to be amplified in later stages.

I managed to sign only two of the amendments in this group. I am sorry that I did not sign the others, because they are also important. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for not spotting them early enough to be able to do so. I will speak to the ones I have signed, Amendments 88 and 135. I hope that the Minister will give us some hope that we will be able to see some movement on this.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell, mentioned the way in which the wording on page 113 seems not only to miss the point but to devalue the possibility of seeing protections for children well placed in the legislation. New Clause 120B(e), which talks of

“the fact that children may be less aware of the risks and consequences associated with processing of personal data and of their rights in relation to such processing”,

almost says it all for me. I do not understand how that could possibly have got through the process by which this came forward, but it seems to speak to a lack of communication between parts of government that I hoped this new Government, with their energy, would have been able to overcome. It speaks to the fact that we need to keep an eye on both sides of the equation: what is happening in the online safety world and how data that is under the control of others, not necessarily those same companies, will be processed in support or otherwise of those who might wish to behave in an improper or illegal way towards children.

At the very least, what is in these amendments needs to be brought into the Bill. In fact, other additions may need to be made. I shall certainly keep my eye on it.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee stage
Monday 1st March 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a former chair of StepChange, the debt charity. I put my name down to speak in this group of amendments because they give me an opportunity to raise a wider concern about the access we need to low-cost credit. In fact, this fits in very closely with points already made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on Amendment 29 and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on Amendment 126, and his important point about financial inclusion and the need to make sure that we do not forget that. I am looking forward to the comments to be made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer; she will also touch on these issues when she comes to speak.

When responding to a group in an earlier debate, my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe mentioned that he grew up in a household where poverty was a constant worry. He mentioned the “jam jar economy”, which often characterised low-income households. It was cash-based: putting small amounts of coin away for future expenditure. Indeed, research a few years ago showed the surprising conclusion that the lowest paid in our society were often the heaviest savers on many measures, mainly because they had to be. It was done outwith traditional credit sources and topped up where necessary by house-to-house lenders, which were often a vital lifeline.

A key problem I want to highlight is the need to solve the problem of how to expand low-cost credit. My noble friend Lord McNicol, when he was speaking in an earlier group, mentioned the problems revealed by a very interesting report by the University of Edinburgh Business School on the financial health of NHS workers—people who were in employment but receiving low wages. It was based on real-time open banking figures. It showed across the 20,000 or so NHS workers who were surveyed that far too many were heavily reliant on a regular basis on persistent overdrafts and high-cost credit, often borrowing to meet the emergency needs they had from time to time, at APRs of well over 1,000%. The report makes for very interesting reading, and I hope that the Government will have access to it when they come to consider these issues further.

I know that the Government are concerned about this and that their financial inclusion work recognises, as previous Governments have, that the availability of low-cost credit is a major blockage to financial well-being. As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, said, it also affects the ability of SMEs and sole traders to operate successfully in a difficult economy.

I hope that the Minister can say a bit more about the plans the Government have when she comes to respond. I know that the Government will pray in aid the idea that credit unions will often be the solution; they have been mooted so often in the past but do not seem to grow. Other countries have other models—Germany has its particular banks focused on the local economy and America has the Community Reinvestment Act—which have solved the problems. Is there not time to consider things that might operate more successfully here in the UK?

None of the individual measures outlined in the amendments in this group, welcome though they are, will solve low-cost credit and the drought that we are suffering from. But they make the point well that the regulatory measures in the Bill should not restrict much-needed support from institutions, banks and other organisations such as credit unions to help those who need to borrow but who cannot do so at the rates or in the period of time which are often required by our major institutions. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has withdrawn from this group, so I call the next speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 22nd February 2021 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I am deeply embarrassed by all the personal comments and blushed to my roots, which I hope was not too obvious on screen. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, rightly pointed out the excellent work being carried out by many other agencies and bodies in this area as well as StepChange. I completely endorse his comments; there is a lot of good work going on.

I normally find myself aligned very closely with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—sometimes rather embarrassingly, given our respective party positions—but this time I seem to have completely confused her, for which I apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, was right that there are two quite separate tracks here, as my noble friend Lord McNicol picked up on. One is setting up a regulatory environment within which more good behaviour and activity by firms enhances the overall capacity of the system to work well in terms of financial capability and well-being. The other is hoping for the wider context that is necessary for all this to happen—particularly starting with education, which is always a hard nut to crack. As the noble Lord rightly said, this could be picked up by employers, trade unions, wider agencies, anybody with an interest in seeing a holistic society using the non-cash elements that my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe was so scared of but yet so sprightly embraced in his unique style.

We all must learn how to operate with new technologies and new operations. My children do not use cash; they have not used cash for 10 years. They are all flashing out ridiculously brightly coloured cards and seem to have a much better track on what they are spending and how well they are doing than I ever did. I completely admit that. However, that is no excuse for me—I must get up there and be part of that process. But there is a role for Government, there is definitely a role for the FCA and the regulator; there is a role for companies that want to go down that track and have the capacity to do so, but there is no fixed agenda for that yet.

I wanted to hear a high-level endorsement by the Minister that this was something worth exploring and working for. She has given that, and I am very grateful. We can see this as a burgeoning programme of work which might well surprise us all in terms of where it might reach and what it might do. We are all rightly trying to support it in a way that will be most appropriate. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.