Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (No. 2) Order 2011
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (No. 2) Order 2011.
Relevant documents: 29th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, for the convenience of the Committee I intend to speak to the two orders together.
On the appeals order, noble Lords may be aware that the licensing regime for alternative business structures contained in the Legal Services Act 2007 became operational on 6 October. In relation to that regime, the Law Society has had its application to become a licensing authority approved by the Legal Services Board. In accordance with the 2007 Act, before the Law Society can be designated as a licensing authority by order of the Lord Chancellor, it is necessary for there to be an appellate body with the power to hear appeals against its decisions made in relation to alternative business structures.
The purpose of this order is to modify the functions of the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal—known as the SDT—so that it can perform that function, subject to its designation as a licensing authority. As required by the 2007 Act, this order is made on the recommendation of the Legal Services Board following wide consultation and with the consent of the SDT and the Law Society.
In summary, the order makes provision for the SDT to hear and determine: decisions which are appealable under Part 5 of the 2007 Act and under the Law Society’s own licensing rules; the orders which the SDT may make, where that is not already provided by the Act itself; the orders for costs in relation to those appeals; and onward appeals from the SDT to the High Court. The set-up and operating costs of this SDT appeal mechanism will be funded by the Law Society and met by the licence fee payable by licensed bodies.
The Law Society has elected to use the SDT rather than the First-tier Tribunal as its appellate body because it wanted a consistent approach to appeals by all the firms which it regulates—both alternative business structures and traditional firms—and because the SDT has a wider discretion than the First-tier Tribunal to award costs. During a previous debate in the summer, noble Lords expressed concern about different licensing authorities using different appellate bodies to determine appeals from their licensing decisions. I think that point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I can see merit in using one appellate body for all appeals relating to alternative business structures, and that has also been the Legal Services Board’s preference. However, the structure of the 2007 Act means that the Legal Services Board can only recommend appeal routes to which the prospective licensing authority and the proposed appeal body consent. Therefore, licensing authorities cannot be forced to use a particular appeal route.
The Legal Services Board made its recommendation on the Law Society’s appeal route to the Lord Chancellor in August, and this order has been brought before the Committee at the earliest opportunity. As I have already said, the Legal Services Board originally consulted on a proposal that there should be a single appellate body to hear decisions of all licensing authorities and proposed the First-tier Tribunal for that role. However, the Law Society did not consent to that proposal and elected to use the SDT as its appeal body. The consequences of this decision impacted on the timing of the Law Society’s designation as a licensing authority and were explained to the parties concerned at the time.
Following the Law Society’s decision a new draft order was prepared and, in accordance with the statutory requirement, the consultation on the order was undertaken by the Legal Services Board. That consultation was completed in June and the order was finalised shortly after, but not in time for consideration by this House before the Summer Recess. Without the appeal arrangements being in place, it was not possible to designate the Law Society before the commencement of the alternative business structures regime in October. If approved, the order will provide the individuals and businesses affected by the Law Society’s licensing decisions with an opportunity to challenge these decisions through an independent and impartial appellate body.
I will now turn to the exceptions order. This is the second exceptions order to be laid this year. The purpose of this amendment is to extend the exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 to include non-authorised persons with a restricted interest in alternative business structures—a point originally raised when we last discussed this by—
Lord Jones
The Minister has already referred several times to consultation. Perhaps now, or in his summing up, he will give any instances of consultation in Wales and with whom consultations may have been taking place.
Lord McNally
I will address that in my closing remarks.
I was about to say that the matter of the extension of this order was raised in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, who is not in his place today. Noble Lords will be aware that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act allows individuals lawfully to conceal certain spent cautions and convictions after a specified period of time has elapsed. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act allows individuals to do this by declaring certain cautions and convictions as spent. Once a caution or conviction is spent, the individuals need not declare it when applying for most types of employment, seeking licences or applying for insurance.
The Government believe that individuals who have put their criminal past behind them should be given a chance to reintegrate into society. Research has consistently shown that employment reduces the risk of reoffending. By removing unnecessary barriers to employment, the Government are therefore demonstrating their commitment to clearing the way for ex-offenders to lead law-abiding lives. The Government also recognise the importance of protecting the public; therefore, there must be a balance. In certain specified circumstances, for example, it is right that employers or regulators are aware of an individual’s full criminal record history when they are determining the individual’s suitability to fulfil a certain role or carry out a specific activity. The exceptions order amending this Act seeks to achieve this balance towards public protection.
The exceptions order lists specific activities for which the employer, regulator or other relevant body is entitled to information about the spent cautions and convictions of persons applying to carry out that activity. These activities are those that present individuals with a particular opportunity to cause harm to the public or involve regular contact with a particularly vulnerable group. This includes work with children, as well as work in certain sensitive financial or legal positions.
Today, I am seeking to extend the exceptions order to those seeking to hold a restricted interest in an alternative business structure. During passage in this House of a previous amendment in an exceptions order in June this year, a number of noble Lords raised concerns about the risk of criminal ownership to alternative business structures. Following that debate, the Ministry of Justice expedited consideration of a business case, seeking further amendments to the exceptions order in relation to the provision of legal services. After careful assessment of the business case, we concluded that the exceptions order should be extended to persons who hold a restricted interest in an alternative business structure. This, the Government believe, addresses the immediate concern of safeguarding the new structures from the risk of criminal ownership—a point that was made at the previous debate by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Wirral and Lord Thomas of Gresford. It effectively captures those who might pose a risk of improper management of firms providing legal services, including the risk of the exploitation of access to client money.
Schedule 13 to the Legal Services Act requires all those who hold a restricted interest in an alternative business structure to be subject to a fitness-to-own test. Information about an individual’s spent convictions will form part of that test. Therefore a licensing authority, when determining whether or not an individual is fit and proper, will be entitled to ask questions about the individual’s previous criminal history, which will include any spent cautions or convictions.
While the Law Society and other consultees welcomed the decision to make this further exceptions order, they also expressed a desire for further exceptions to be made, in particular for non-lawyer managers of alternative business structures who do not hold a restricted interest. It is important to state that the framework of the Legal Services Act makes provision for a statutory approval process only for those persons who fall within Schedule 13. There is not a separate statutory provision which allows for the approval of non-lawyer managers who do not hold a restricted interest. Our analysis found that all non-lawyer managers will be captured by this order, unless the percentage of their interest or voting rights falls below the statutory threshold that constitutes a restricted interest under Schedule 13. Our analysis is that such persons would not pose a significant enough risk to the management of an alternative business structure to justify making an exception. However, if a licensing authority deemed it necessary—and if the Legal Services Board agreed to the change to its regulatory arrangements—it has the power under Schedule 13 to make licensing rules so that the threshold at which a person is considered to have a material interest in an alternative business structure is less than the 10 per cent threshold set out in Schedule 13.
I am satisfied that this order effectively addresses the immediate risk to alternative business structures of criminal ownership. As we go forward and begin to see alternative business structures in operation, the Ministry of Justice will consider any future business case to extend the exceptions order further, in the usual way. Should compelling evidence be presented that additional roles in relation to alternative business structures or the legal services sector should be added to the exceptions order, then the appropriate amendment could be made.
I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that, when deciding whether or not the exceptions order should be extended to a particular role or activity, the Government must be mindful of the careful balance between access to information about spent convictions and the important goal of improving access to employment for offenders who have proven that they have put their criminal lives behind them.
I believe that the decision to extend the exceptions order only as far as necessary, to persons who hold a restricted interest in alternative business structures, will enhance the regulatory safeguards in relation to those seeking to hold a material interest in an alternative business structure, but will also ensure that this balance is maintained. I beg to move.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I would like to speak on the first of the two orders. I no longer have formally to declare an interest as I no longer chair the Legal Services Consumer Panel, but it was in that guise that I had such an interest in the implementation of this part of the Legal Services Act and the availability of the alternative business structure—a sort of one-stop-shop—which has been very strongly supported by consumers of legal services.
As the Minister said, this order is part of the architecture for setting up the alternative business structure licensing system, and it will allow the SRA to become a licensing authority by the end of this year—sadly, not by 6 October as was originally hoped, but nevertheless within 2011.
As has been outlined, the order deals with appeals by applicants who want to be an ABS against the granting of a licence, which is effectively the permit to act as a recognised ABS, by the SRA’s licensing arm. Similar appeals about, for example, whether an individual is fit and proper to own an ABS, or to be the head of legal practice or a head of finance administration, and decisions to impose licensing conditions or the imposition of a financial penalty would also be heard. Under the system being put into place by this order, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said, the existing SDT, although slightly adapted, will hear such cases rather than the First-tier Tribunal, which will be used by the other licensing authority, the Council of Licensed Conveyancers. As has been mentioned at an earlier stage, we regret perhaps that there is not a single body dealing with all such appeals in order that a real body of expertise and precedent can be built up, which would give certainty and consistency to this aspect of the new delivery service.
As regards the new service, I know that we do not often congratulate civil servants but the MoJ and the Legal Services Board have worked immensely hard to get all this quite complicated machinery into place. They should be congratulated. As part of that, it is disappointing that the only reason—I know that the Minister gave two—that the Law Society via its SRA arm has insisted on a separate route rather than the First-tier Tribunal is because of the tribunal’s own rules about awarding costs. At the moment the SDT, when considering solicitor conduct cases, has the power to award costs to be paid by the losing to the winning side. Therefore, the SRA’s costs are always met. Under the new process, having gone to the tribunal, the tribunal would hear not the case brought by the SRA but an appeal against the SRA decision. Thus, as the tribunals do not generally have the power to award costs unless it is a case with absolutely no merit, the SRA would have to meet its own costs. I fear that not using the First-tier Tribunal is the reason for this separate order today.
I think that it is in the interests of business or consumers to understand the rules as they develop. It is also probably not in the interests of the Government or the LSB, which needs to watch carefully over this new system. It is quite a risk to set up something like alternative business structures. The MoJ and the LSB will need to look over the new system of legal service provision and how it is bedding down. It would have helped to have a single appeals body regardless of which front-line regulator was handling the case.
However, the rules that the SDT will apply are to be welcomed. They are virtually the same as those in place for the First-tier Tribunal, which will help with consistency in the short term and perhaps allow for adjudications to be combined at a later date. With those comments, I certainly support the order.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister very warmly for his clear and thorough opening remarks and description of these orders. I have little to say about them except to express the support of the Opposition for them both. There is no doubt that the Legal Services Act 2007 will have a major, if not profound, influence in the years to come on how legal services are delivered in this country. That was clear when the draft Bill was debated and discussed by a Joint Committee of both Houses under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, and when the Bill went through your Lordships’ House some time afterwards. I think we can see the importance of that Act in the orders before us. Alongside it there are many sensitivities that surround the bringing into force of various parts of this Act, whether large or small. I hope—indeed I am sure—that the Government and the ministry are aware of and alive to those sensitivities in deciding which way to go.
I shall say a word about the first order, which deals particularly with appeals bodies. On the face of it, it is a shame that there is not to be a single appeals body—I agree with my noble friend Lady Hayter on that—but I suppose that this is one of the sensitivities that I am talking about. It is interesting to see in the Explanatory Memorandum the consultation outcome in relation to this order. For a consultation outcome, this has a dramatic and rather more exciting history than is normally the case in such consultations and it is quite clear that there has been toing and froing before the Government came forward with this order allowing the Law Society its way in this instance. I do not for a moment suggest that that was the wrong decision. However, a single appeals body is an attractive proposition, and I wonder whether over a period of time events might lead to it.
As for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, I start by wishing the Private Member’s Bill under the charge of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, well. It is relevant because, with a senior government Minister present, maybe the Government themselves will have to play a role at some stage in making sure that his Bill, which is much delayed—this came up under the Government I was proud to serve in—gets on to the statute book in one way or another. It may be in the form of a Private Member’s Bill with all the difficulties that that involves both in this House and in another place, or with a little help from Her Majesty’s Government. Certainly, if the Government were to put their weight behind the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, we would support it too.
However, as far as this order is concerned I am most grateful—particularly to the Minister—for describing in detail why the universal opinion of the various groups that were consulted about this was not met in terms of a slightly wider group being subject to the exemption to the existing Act. He described it very adequately. Is there any concern that by leaving out that group of people there will be some difficulties down the road? It would be unfortunate if people who should be exempted from this Act were not exempted at this stage, and if the Government had to do it on a “first today and then tomorrow” basis.
These are important issues even though they are in orders that are going through this Committee pretty quickly. I have no doubt there will be others that involve the ABS and the other important results of the Legal Services Act 2007. Bearing in mind that the Act was passed under a different Government, we will do all we can to ensure that Act comes into fruition successfully.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for that response. He is always very kind about how clear and thorough I am in explaining statutory instruments. He knows as well as I do that it is only because of the hard work of the people who sit behind me. I am very pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and my noble friend Lord Dholakia thanked the Ministry of Justice and the LSB for their work on this. It is exciting. I pay tribute to the previous Government. The alternative business structures will produce changes which, I suspect, will be mainly to the benefit of the consumer in the provision of legal services. What we are trying to do with these orders is to put the last pieces in place to allow them to function.
The noble Lord, Lord Bach, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, both expressed the concerns that were reflected during the last debate—that we have not got a single route here, in that the solicitors have decided to have their separate body. Whether it will cause the problems of a lack of consistency, we will have to see. What I can assure noble Lords is that the LSB will be carrying out further work, and looking at appeal arrangements, and the MoJ will be working closely with the LSB in relation to this. I also understand the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Bach: have we gone too narrow in this extension? As I explained, I do not think we have. However, let us see. The concern expressed last time was that the alternative business structures may allow criminal elements in that would corrupt the new structures. We listened in this Committee and have brought forward extensions, and now think that we have got things right. Again, the LSB will follow the new structures as they go in. So far, only one new alternative business structure has been announced. The Co-op has beaten Tesco; perhaps it should now be called Co-op law rather than Tesco law.
This is an exciting development for which the previous Administration can take credit and which we have been pleased to help bring into being. We will discuss legal services in general in more detail when we get to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill in a short while. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and I have discussed before, legal services in general are in flux. The ABSs will provide an exciting new dimension to them.
On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Jones, I can only draw his attention to the fact that the consultations were carried out by the Legal Services Board for England and Wales and the Law Society of England and Wales. I am sure that both bodies carried out their consultations across the geographic areas of their responsibility. If he can draw to my attention the case for them not doing that, I will be happy to follow it up. However, since they are both bodies that have an England and Wales dimension and were both charged with wide consultation, my understanding is that they will have consulted in Wales.
Lord Jones
I am grateful to the Minister for fielding my query. I content myself with the reminder to him: he is the Minister and he will do the work.
Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) (No. 2) Order 2011
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) (No. 2) Order 2011.
Relevant document: 30th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Prisons: HMP Wandsworth
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Lord Hurd of Westwell
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they propose to implement the recommendations identified in HM Chief Inspector of Prisons’ report of 10 August 2011 on HM Prison Wandsworth.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, since the inspection was undertaken in February and March, Wandsworth prison has strengthened its management team and improved access to purposeful activity. The issues of showering provision and access to telephones have been tackled and first-night provision is better. In addition, the primary care trust has commissioned a health needs assessment to identify better the requirements of the prison population.
Lord Hurd of Westwell
What were my noble friend’s feelings on first reading this very disappointing report? It details several ways in which Wandsworth prison has fallen backwards since the earlier report and is now holding people in conditions that are unsafe and fall well below the level of human decency. He has listed some things that have happened since the report was published. Can he add to that list and is he satisfied that when those things are carried out, they will solve the problems that the chief inspector reported?
Lord McNally
My Lords, my noble friend asked me what my reaction was. I was appalled. It is a disgraceful and shaming report that lists many failings. I can say only that the National Offender Management Service has reacted to the faults with proper determination. Wandsworth is a very difficult prison. It is one of our Victorian prisons, with over 1,600 prisoners, which puts a great strain on the staff, but there is no doubt that the inspection revealed many weaknesses. All I can assure my noble friend is that the strengthening of the management team signals a determination that the things that were identified will be put right.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, when I was the Chief Inspector of Prisons I also had the problem of inspecting Wandsworth and producing a report very similar to the one that has been mentioned. We introduced a procedure whereby the Prison Service was required to produce an action plan on what it was going to do, which was copied to the Secretary of State and the chief inspector and was then updated after nine months and 18 months. That report listed who was to do what, and by when, to put the recommendations right. The Minister has listed some things that have happened. Can he tell the House whether that action plan procedure is still in force and, if so, whether one has been instigated for HMP Wandsworth?
Lord McNally
I am not quite sure whether the system that the noble Lord refers to is still in action, but I know that Amy Rees, the new governor, has the clear direction to move with all possible speed to implement the action plan. It would be inconceivable if the Secretary of State and Ministers in the Ministry of Justice did not pay the closest attention to making sure that the recommendations made by this report are implemented with all possible speed.
Lord Bach
My Lords, this is obviously a significant and worrying report and I am sure that the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, for raising the issue this afternoon. As I understand it, Wandsworth has a larger number of prisoners than any other prison in Europe—some 1,665 at the date of the report. Can the Minister either tell the House today or perhaps write to me telling us how many of those prisoners are doubled up in cells at present? Perhaps I might briefly broaden my question. Can he confirm that capital investment in the Prison Service is generally going down heavily, year on year, and that in fact there will be no capital investment by 2013-14? In the light of the fact that the largest number of prisoners ever is in prison today—the figure on 5 November was 87,749—and in the light of cuts to prison staff, and particularly to probation staff, can he tell the House how the rehabilitation revolution is going?
Lord McNally
We will return to the rehabilitation revolution on 21 November when we discuss the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will help me then with the fact that the Ministry of Justice, as part of our deficit reduction programme, has to find £2 billion in cuts. In a department that spends money only on prisons, probation, court services and legal aid, tough decisions have been made. Today it is prison spending cuts that the noble Lord does not like; I suspect that, the next time he gets up, it will be legal aid cuts that he does not like. To govern is to choose, and we have had to make some very tough decisions.
On the question of doubling up, again one of the problems for Wandsworth is that a prison built for just over 1,000 people has 1,600 prisoners. You can work out the number that are doubled up in cells. About the only good thing that I can think of in that circumstance is that they all have in-cell toilet facilities, but even that makes you squirm with horror when you think about sharing a cell containing those facilities.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister share my concern that the policies on diversity and race relations identified in the report have not been adequately addressed? Would he have a word with Her Majesty’s Inspector of Prisons to ensure that there will be an automatic review of this issue, not only in Wandsworth but in other prisons as well? At the end of the day, is it not right that all inmates should be treated fairly?
Lord McNally
Absolutely, my Lords. One of the reasonable things that came from this report and the prison visitors’ report is that there was no identifiable race problem in the treatment of prisoners. Indeed, 29 per cent of prison officers and staff at Wandsworth are from black and ethnic communities, a figure that I found reassuring, but it is also true that the report said that because of general failures across the board, black and ethnic minority prisoners suffered from those common problems.
On the question of dealing with race relations, I understand that all prisons now have an adviser on such matters, but I will also ensure that my noble friend’s suggestions are drawn to the attention of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector.
Crime: Self-defence Homicide
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Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will issue the police with further advice or guidance on self-defence homicide cases, in the light of recent decisions by the Crown Prosecution Service.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Ministry of Justice is working with the Home Office to update the code of practice made under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to give the police further such guidance. A revised code was published for consultation on 1 November. That consultation will end on 24 January.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate
I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does he agree that when burglars enter an occupied dwelling by criminal trespass and as a result one of the burglars is killed or seriously injured by a householder who is clearly defending himself, the public reaction generally is that the burglar deserved everything that he got? It is clear that this matter has to be seriously investigated, but is it really necessary, except in serious cases, for the police formally to take the householder into custody and arrest him with all the consequences that that involves, including searching, placing in cells and so on? Is it not possible for the police to use their discretion more often and to investigate the matter by inviting the householder to co-operate without formal arrest? After all, he is hardly likely to abscond. Does the Minister also agree that recent, highly publicised decisions do not capture the public mood? After all, liberty is precious and should not be removed lightly, particularly from an innocent victim.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I fully appreciate many of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, made in that question, which echoed a number of points that were raised in a debate initiated by my noble friend Lord Blencathra on 20 October. Following that debate the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer, wrote to me to meet some of the points made in that debate by the noble Lord and other Peers. The director made the point that the CPS had explained that in certain circumstances the police may be advised that an expedited, streamlined file is required following initial investigations by the police. However, he made it clear that the CPS reserves the right to ensure that adequate time is allowed to conduct a comprehensive review of all the evidence available, in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Does the Minister accept that the principle of self-defence, whereby a person is entitled to defend himself or any other person from unlawful attack by using no more force than is reasonably necessary, is well ensconced in our law, well understood by juries, and is fair and clear? Furthermore, does he accept that the common law has enshrined this principle for a very long time; that it was spelt out in detail in the case of Palmer 40 years ago, and, indeed, enshrined in Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008; and that any doubts that exist exist more in the minds of tabloid editors than of judges and lawyers?
Lord McNally
My Lords, as always, there is a great deal of wisdom in what the noble Lord says—and a great deal of accuracy as well. We intend to provide greater clarity with this new guidance and through the clauses in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which will be coming before this House shortly. It is certainly true that, in so doing, we will be bringing into statute what is already a very fixed principle in our common law.
Lord Bach
My Lords, Clause 131 of the Bill that the Minister just mentioned is the one clause that deals with this issue of self-defence. However, what is not clear about the law as it exists at present? That feeling is quite widespread across the House. Why does it need another clause in another long Bill?
Lord McNally
I think that the answer to that was indicated in the previous question and by the fact that the noble Lord has tabled this Question today. There are newspaper articles and general assertions made about what is right or wrong. Under our common law, home owners, small shopkeepers and householders can use reasonable force to defend themselves or their properties and will not be prosecuted. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has made clear that he believes that the current law is broadly in the right place. However, we believe that it does no harm, in the light of a lot of these questions and articles, to make it clear in the forthcoming Bill. I think that it will do a lot of good in establishing where people, including the police, are positioned in this. It will also deter any thought that we are drifting towards any kind of endorsement of vigilantism or keeping a six o’clock special under the pillow. This is a consolidation measure to clarify the law.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister clarify the question from my noble friend Lord Mackenzie about the nature and circumstances in which formal arrest takes place?
Lord McNally
I think that I have made that clear. We are consulting on guidance. However, the trend of the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, was that somehow policemen could make an instant judgment. Circumstances are very varied in these situations and the Director of Public Prosecutions has made it clear—and I think that the draft guidance implies this—that although police are invited to use common sense and discretion when assessing circumstances, the Director of Public Prosecutions cannot abandon his responsibilities in examining whether or not a crime has been committed and should be prosecuted.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, will the Minister make clear to the viewers and listeners from north of the border that all the answers he has given so far apply only to England, and perhaps also to Wales?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Yes, including Wales, thank you. Will the Minister consider having some discussion with his counterpart in Scotland about lessons learnt from Scots law, which very often—and, I think, in this case—is superior to English and Welsh law?
Lord McNally
I am very happy to have such discussions. The noble Lord would be amazed, in the 18 months I have been in this job, how often the advice is: “They actually do this a lot better in Scotland”.
Loan Companies: Interest Rates
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us now get six or more phone calls every week? It is not just a high street issue but has become an absolute telephone menace. People are phoning all the time, stating that this is an official announcement and under the new law they can clear all your debts in no time at all. This is absolutely wrong. I have asked this question previously and the Minister told me that there was nothing the Government could do. I understand now that there is a blocking system. Will the Government publicise how to block these calls so that these poor people are not imposed upon again?
Coroner Service
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what responses they have received on the draft charter for the coroner service from organisations that represent the bereaved, and whether they anticipate making any substantial changes before they publish the charter.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government received 135 consultation responses, of which 16 were from organisations representing the bereaved. We are concurrently considering these responses, and we intend to publish our response to the consultation in December.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, the Minister will remember that the idea of the charter was that it would create a standard of service for bereaved people. He will be aware that the Government now propose a general charter for anyone coming into contact with the coroner service. What does he say to the likes of the father of Adrian Pullman, now himself dying of cancer, who has waited eight years for an inquest into why his five year-old only son was found dead in a swimming pool on a local authority care break? Does the Minister recall that in 2009, when we debated the Coroners and Justice Act, the coroner’s office involved said, “We have a lot of cases but this will be given a bit of priority because of the delay, but I cannot foresee it being heard before the end of the year”? It has still not been heard. Can the Minister say what in the Government’s revised proposals would mean that a bereaved father no longer had to wait eight years for an inquest?
Lord McNally
My Lords, let us be clear that in a system such as this delays are sometimes unavoidable; for example, because of ongoing criminal or other investigations or, in some cases, because of the family’s wishes. We want to ensure as efficient a system as possible. As part of that, we believe that the measures in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 which we are implementing will help to reduce delays. We will also publish a wider range of statistics about the coroner system than we presently collect, drawing on our experience of service personnel inquests, where the quarterly publication of statistics has helped to eliminate delays throughout England and Wales.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, how many complaints were received last year about the proceedings and delays in the coroners’ courts and how are they informing the revision of the charter, given that some coroners feel that the aspirations set in the charter are unrealistic in situations such as when a second post-mortem needs to be performed?
Lord McNally
I do not have those figures, but I will write to the noble Baroness. Everything we have done in studying this process is aimed at improving the efficiency of the system. I do not think that the simple removal from the reforms of the single post of chief coroner removes the fact that we are implementing the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. We have reviewed very thoroughly. We have consulted very thoroughly, as the noble Baroness knows very well, and we believe that our reforms will bring the improvements that the original Act sought to do.
Lord Bach
My Lords, just two years ago, the consensus in this House and in the other place was that the chief coroner was an essential part of a new coronial system. In spite of the views of this House, and of many outside, including the Royal British Legion, why are the Government still insistent on not appointing a chief coroner, who would be an important part of the reforms that Parliament agreed by consensus?
Lord McNally
A Government is allowed to look at an issue, examine widely, listen, consult, and then make a decision in the context of the financial circumstances it finds at the end. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has decided that the immediate appointment of a chief coroner is not justified in the present circumstances. After listening to the various representations, we left the title of chief coroner in Schedule 5 to the Bill when it returned from the other place, and that will allow this House, the other place and the outside organisations to judge whether we are still able to carry through the bulk of the 2009 Act without the chief coroner. We believe we can, and by our deeds you can judge us.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
The charter will not be statutory so how will it be enforced?
Lord McNally
The Coroners and Justice Act 2009 provides for the Lord Chancellor to issue statutory guidance about the way in which the system operates, specifically in relation to bereaved families. We plan to revise the charter when we implement the coroner provisions in the Act and at that stage we will give the revised charter the status of statutory guidance.
The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells
My Lords, in view of the Government’s declared objective of putting the bereaved at the heart of the inquest process, will the charter make provision for the special circumstances affecting communication with families whose loved ones have died in the custody of the state, and will it take into account the submissions made by the organisation INQUEST?
Lord McNally
Indeed, we have been in regular contact with INQUEST and those are exactly the kinds of issues for which we hope the new charter will enable the bereaved to have direct redress if problems arise. Let us be clear: as much as the previous Government, we want an efficient coroner service that allows bereaved people full information about a process which is always going to be stressful. It really is our full intention to try to make this system work along the main lines of the 2009 Act, but without a chief coroner.
Lord Rooker
Does the Minister accept that the Question asked by the noble Baroness was a first-class use of Question Time in bringing a long-standing individual grievance to the Floor of Parliament? Without knowing anything about the circumstances, would it not have been appropriate for the Minister at least to have said that he will go away and look into this?
Lord McNally
It may have been. I am not so sure that it is a proper use of Question Time to expect the Minister to know about an individual, personal case, which I fully understand for the individuals concerned must be extremely serious. One of the things that I do, as the noble Lord probably did as a Minister, is have a washing-up session after Question Time to see what needs to be followed up. However, I do not intend ever at this Dispatch Box to use personal cases either for attack or defence.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister explain to the House how the Government determine priorities? We are talking here about a consensus across the other place and your Lordships’ House on the importance of this post. The issue has been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, on many occasions in this House. Yet, the Government pray in aid being careful with money while railroading through police and crime commissioners, who will cost millions and for whom there is no consensus outside. Where are the Government’s priorities when it comes to this sort of issue?
Lord McNally
I have already explained the process. I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, my noble friend Lady Miller or other noble Lords have said that the Government have not been available to discuss matters or to go through the process with them. Just as when the noble Baroness was a member of the previous Government, the Government are entitled to make a judgment on a matter and to put it to the House. This matter will return to this place and the House will then have to make a decision. It is simply not true that we have not listened. We have made substantial changes to the implementation of the Coroners and Justice Act, so much so that I believe that I can stand up the claim that we are implementing the bulk of the 2009 Act. But our judgment is that a chief coroner is not needed in post at this moment. We have left it in the Bill so that a judgment can be made at a later stage. But at this stage the Government’s judgment is that we should not go ahead with a chief coroner. At a later stage, when the Bill returns to the House, I will defend that position.
Legal System: Translation and Interpreting Services
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Ministry of Justice has been looking at this matter for some time and has identified a number of issues that call for change. They include the limited number of linguists available for use, an inefficient and costly booking process, and concerns over the quality of service and complaint investigation. The ministry has therefore announced that it will be moving to a framework agreement with a single supplier. We anticipate that this will resolve current problems while saving the taxpayer at least £18 million a year on current spending.
Baroness Coussins
I thank the Minister for his reply, but would he be prepared to review the framework contract in the light of an independent study commissioned by the Association of Police and Court Interpreters, which predicts that the new arrangement is unsustainable and, far from saving £18 million a year, could end up costing £200 million a year? Secondly, is the Minister aware that more than half the existing number of qualified interpreters have refused to sign up with the new single supplier and take very substantial pay cuts, and that this situation could well result in the employment of less competent interpreters, to the detriment of witnesses, defendants and victims?
Lord McNally
No, we will not review the framework or the agreement that we have made. We have looked at the report—which, in any lobbying exercise, is quite legitimate—and examined the figures in it, but we do not believe that they stand up. We have always been clear that translation and interpretation services of the appropriate quality should be available, where they are required, for all those who come into contact with the justice system, while obtaining value for money for the public. Let us see how it settles. There are many threats and ideas that people are not going to sign up or that it will not work out. Obviously the noble Baroness is far more expert than me on this issue, but there is no doubt that the present system was not working, which is why the previous Administration initiated the inquiry, which has now culminated in this decision, as far back as 2009.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, in designing the new system, why was it decided to ignore existing professional qualifications and to sideline the National Register of Public Service Interpreters, with its established system of registration that requires not only an appropriate degree-level qualification but 400 hours of proven public service interpreting? Does my noble friend think that it is fair to make experienced and qualified interpreters and translators go through the hoops and pay for a new accreditation procedure that assumes that they have just come out of the sixth form?
Lord McNally
My Lords, we are not doing this for fun. We are doing it because the present accreditation system was not working and there was a lot wrong with it. That is why we set up a new register. There were faults in the old register in the quality of assessment and we believe that, starting as we are with a new system, a new register is the most effective way of guaranteeing quality.
Lord Kinnock
My Lords, no one is arguing for simple maintenance of the status quo. When over half of the qualified people in this profession have made it clear that they are unwilling to register with a new body under the new framework because it implies cuts of up to 70 per cent of their incomes, does the Minister not think that the Government are taking a huge risk by pursuing this course without further review and that it will result in loss of quality, compromise justice—which is worst of all—and could end up ultimately, as the professionals warn, costing much more and not reducing costs?
Lord McNally
The fact is that the old system was extraordinarily inefficient. Sometimes interpreters would get only one appointment in a week. Sometimes interpreters would not turn up, incurring costs to the court. Sometimes interpreters would subcontract to a totally unqualified interpreter. There were a lot of faults in the old system, which is why the previous Administration initiated the inquiry. Having looked at the outcome of that inquiry, we have adopted this new system, providing a new register with a single supplier. Let us see how it works. We have confidence that the system will work, that qualified interpreters will sign up to it and that they will get a volume of work that will give them a decent living.
Lord King of Bridgwater
Can my noble friend confirm, to reassure the British taxpayer, that when Mr Abramovich gives his evidence in Russian and this extensive trial stretches on in whatever language is chosen to conduct it, the cost will not fall on the British taxpayer?
Lord McNally
I will have to write to my noble friend. What I will say to him is that, if it is falling on the British taxpayer, I will put down an amendment to the LASPO Bill to prevent such an absurdity.
Elections: Registration
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness McDonagh
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the implications for the accuracy of the electoral register of the provisions of the White Paper on individual electoral registration.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, our intention in bringing in individual electoral registration is that the implications will be entirely beneficial. The Government are funding research to understand the current level of accuracy of the electoral register that will help us to understand better the way in which to move to individual electoral registration and what impact it will have. The Government remain absolutely committed to ensuring that the maximum number of people remain on the electoral register during the transition to individual registration and that the accuracy of the register is improved.
Baroness McDonagh
I thank the Minister for that Answer. I am slightly concerned when I read all the academics and psephologists on the subject, who believe that we are going to fall from best in class, from 92 per cent accuracy to the low 60s. Would the Minister be even slightly concerned if that were the outcome? Would our society be becoming bigger or smaller?
Lord McNally
I would be extremely concerned if that was the outcome. Let us remember that the party opposite, when it was in government, started to raise the issue of individual registration—and even passed legislation—because, for the first time certainly in my lifetime, the integrity of the voting system was starting to be called into question. That is the origin of the exercise that we are undertaking, on which I hope we will have all-party support.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, does the Minister accept that it really is necessary to carry out a thorough, door-to-door, face-to-face canvass in order to ensure both the accuracy and the completeness of the electoral register? Does he accept that failure to do so not only threatens the integrity of the democratic process but could also cause problems for people trying to obtain credit? Credit agencies check that people are on the electoral register to ensure that they can have credit, and failure to maintain the register in this way could mean that people are denied credit and businesses are unable to supply goods and services. That would be damaging to the economy and to social mobility.
Lord McNally
That is an interesting point. If I may return to the central point of the question, yes, doorstep canvassing plays a vital role in ensuring that registers are complete and accurate. That is why in both 2014 and 2015 door-to-door canvassers will be used by electoral registration officers to ask people to register to vote.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, last Wednesday the Minister denied that there had been a collapse in electoral registration in Northern Ireland when this system was introduced. Can I change the word from “collapse” to “fall”? Was there a fall, and by what percentage?
Lord McNally
It is of no use for the noble Lord to say “Ah!” as if he has found out something wonderful and unknown. I admitted that there had been a fall—yes I did—and what I went on to say is that both we and the Northern Irish had learnt lessons from that exercise and the mistakes made. I went on to say—and I hope my noble friend behind me has an opportunity to say this—that we all used to make the “Vote early, vote often” jokes about Northern Ireland, but people are now going across to Northern Ireland to study their success in getting people on the voting register. That is to their credit and is something that we are trying to learn from.
Lord Trimble
My Lords, does the Minister agree that bogus registrations are probably the largest avenue for fraudulent voting, that this has been a major problem in England for decades and that it is long past the time that it was cleared up and we got a more honest register—which I am happy to say we now have in Northern Ireland?
Lord McNally
I am pleased to have that confirmation from my noble friend. Yes, I make the point again that that is exactly why the Labour Government raised this issue because, perhaps a little complacently, we got used to the idea that this kind of thing did not happen in England. We found out the hard way that that was not true. What we are trying to do—I emphasise this again—is to bring forward a process which is thorough and which will deal with some of the concerns that have been raised, and then move forward to a register that will have full public confidence.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
Will the Minister agree that, if the further developments that the Government are considering—including voluntary registration rather than compulsory registration—are brought forward and passed, then all the exchanges about improving the register and getting a more accurate register will be for nothing, because we will get a much smaller register and a much less representative democracy?
Lord McNally
This is where I hope that we can call on the experts in all parties to stop those misleading statements. I made clear last Wednesday that we have always had voluntary registration in this country, and that we are not—whichever party is in power, I suspect—going to bring in compulsory registration. But we will bring in a system that will encourage people to complete their civic duties by registering to vote. Rather than throwing barriers in the way, I suggest that all parties, NGOs and others get down to making this system as foolproof as we can, and then get people to register to vote. We can prove by this exercise that some of those fears are groundless. My right honourable friend Nick Clegg and my honourable friend Mark Harper are open to suggestions and are engaged in discussions, and we will do the best that we can.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, what impact might the opportunity to vote for an elected second Chamber have on voluntary voter registration?
Lord McNally
I think that it would have them flocking to register in their millions. The opportunity and the excitement that that would generate would be almost boundless.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer about voluntary registration, but I do not entirely understand it. As I understand it, it is compulsory to register at present—if only it also were to vote—and if one does not register to vote, I think that one can be prosecuted. My main question concerns local authorities: I wholeheartedly agree with the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, with which the noble Lord agreed. Can he assure me that local authorities will have the requisite amount of resources in order to ensure that they can undertake door-to-door registration?
Lord McNally
Yes, I think that I can give that assurance. On voter registration, the compulsion is for the householder to register the household and not for the individual voter.
Lord McNally
I suggest that noble Lords talk to some of the many experts on electoral registration. There is, always has been and always will be a difference. Voting is voluntary; the registration by households is compulsory. I suggest that noble Lords look it up.
Elections: Registration
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government’s approach reflects the fact that it is not an offence not to be registered under the current system. This will not change under the new system. The offence of not providing information to an electoral registration officer—for example, when making a household enquiry—will be retained. It will not be extended to require an individual to apply to be registered.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer, as far as it goes. He will know that at least 3 million of our fellow citizens, and probably more, already are not registered to vote at all. The independent Electoral Commission is of the view that if registering to vote becomes a voluntary activity, as the White Paper proposes, the result could be that up to 10 million people will fall off the electoral register, and that rates could fall in some areas from 90 per cent down to 65 per cent. Up to 35 per cent of the adult population could be disenfranchised. Is such a consequence acceptable in a mature democracy? Does the Minister agree that if such an event were to happen, no longer could we claim to the world, as we can today, that in Britain we live in a democratic country?
Lord McNally
My Lords, of course it is not acceptable; but neither is it acceptable for a mature political party to go round shroud-waving on a conclusion which involved joint deliberation by the parties that the old system had become increasingly distrusted and that voluntary registration—which would eliminate, or do a lot to eliminate, fraud, and create greater public confidence in the system—should be the way forward. The way forward proposed in the White Paper gives enough guarantees and assurances to show that the kind of language that the noble Lord has just used is, quite frankly, scare tactics which are not worthy of him or his party.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, coming from a country where voting is compulsory, I can understand why it should be compulsory to be on the register. However, as voting is voluntary in this country, what is the difference between not wishing to vote and not wishing to register? Can the Minister please clarify?
Lord McNally
Unlike in Australia, not wishing to vote remains an inalienable right of the British people. Registering is a civic duty and we hope that it will increasingly be seen as such. I certainly hope that over the next few years all the political parties will embrace the idea of an individual register and use their influence to ensure that people exercise their right. Of course, once people are on the register they will retain their right not to vote.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, on the question of shroud-waving, will the noble Lord explain to us why, when this stupid system was introduced in Northern Ireland, the registration of voters totally collapsed? Why did that happen?
Lord McNally
Perhaps someone from Northern Ireland will intervene, but, again, the language is not borne out by the facts. It did not totally collapse. In this gradual process that we are bringing forward, we are learning from the examples and lessons of the Northern Ireland experience, as well as looking at some of the practices that are going on there now. Northern Ireland votes are a standard joke but we are now learning lessons about voluntary registration and its success in Northern Ireland.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, the existing system, whereby householders can in theory be prosecuted for failing to return their registration forms, has not worked, largely for the simple reason that no one can tell who the responsible householder is in households with more than person. Therefore, does not individual registration offer a good opportunity at least to consider a meaningful compulsory system, and is that not important, given that the electoral register determines not just the right to vote but also the call-up for jury service?
Lord McNally
Those are very valid points. To put the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, into perspective, I again emphasise that the annual canvass will continue to support the maintenance of the electoral register. Significant work, including public awareness campaigns by the Electoral Commission, will be funded in 2014-15 to manage the transition to individual electoral registration. In both those years, door-to-door canvassing will be used by electoral registration officers as part of a wide suite of powers to encourage people to register to vote. This is a step forward against electoral fraud. Instead of making emotional interventions, it would be good if the Labour Party would endorse it and get on with encouraging people to register.
Lord Wills
My Lords, all the evidence that I saw when I was the Minister responsible for these matters in the previous Government suggests that the introduction of individual registration, no matter how desirable for other reasons, is going to carry with it severe risks that millions of otherwise eligible voters will fall off the register. That is why, when the previous Government introduced this measure, they locked it into the achievement of a comprehensive and accurate register. It is also why the Conservative shadow Minister at the time said on the Floor of the other place that,
“we agree with the Government that the accuracy, comprehensiveness and integrity of the register … is paramount ... I do not intend to vote against these Government amendments because … I believe that it is right to take this matter forward carefully and step by step”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/07/09; col. 108.]
The Liberal Democrats also supported this approach. Can the Minister please tell your Lordships what new evidence he has seen that has persuaded him that the careful approach adopted by the previous Government and supported by both main parties in opposition is now wrong?
Lord McNally
We are going forward by learning from the lessons and experience of Northern Ireland.
Lord McNally
I am answering the question. From some of the questions, you would not believe that we will be having a two-year period in which we will be taking a belt-and-braces approach with the present system running in parallel and with every opportunity for democratic organisations and others to persuade people voluntarily to go on the electoral register and exercise their civic duty. The answer is that we have decided on a belt-and-braces approach, which will allow a smooth transition to a new scheme. It is a perfectly sensible approach, which draws on some of the experiences of the previous Government. I think that the Labour Party is being disgraceful on this. It should get on with recruiting members and persuading people to register to vote instead of using these scare tactics, which, quite frankly, are not worthy of it.
Public Disorder: Restorative Justice
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Massey of Darwen
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are considering the use of restorative justice in dealing with the riots in August.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, we are committed to delivering more restorative justice. We want to ensure that victims of the riots have a chance to explain the impact on them and that offenders face up to the consequences.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
I thank the Minister for that response. Would he agree that restorative justice schemes have resulted in victim satisfaction and cost-benefit analysis, and that reoffending has been reduced by such schemes? Would he say how many such schemes there are and whether they will be rolled out more extensively?
Lord McNally
Initially there were three such schemes. There have been about 60 enquiries about restorative justice, and we are very keen to roll out the schemes as quickly as possible. In response to the recent riots, there have been elements of restorative justice in both London and Manchester. I assure the noble Baroness that it is an element of the criminal justice system that we are very eager to learn lessons from and to expand.
Baroness Sharples
Would the Minister tell us why the courts in Westminster have closed?
Lord McNally
I am taking a wild guess here. I think it is probably because we have opened a new Westminster court at the other end of town. I am trying to remember the name of the road, but just along from Baker Street—
Lord McNally
Marylebone Road. Thank you. I am about to give the right answer now. I appreciate how convenient it was for Members of both Houses to be in Horseferry Road, but in fact they now have to go to a splendid new court in Marylebone Road.
Baroness Trumpington
Is the Minister aware that the Horseferry Road courts, which I presume are the ones he is talking about—in which I sat as a magistrate for several years, although never, I regret to say, when the noble Lord was present—were new buildings and new courts?
Lord McNally
I think I would prefer Judge Jeffreys rather than the thought of being up before the noble Baroness. Again, I will write with full details, but I suspect that under the previous Administration—
Lord McNally
No. The Marylebone Road building is a very fine building and will be a great credit to the system, but I presume that we will be redeveloping the Horseferry Road site to the benefit of the taxpayer.
Baroness Young of Hornsey
My Lords, will the Minister inform the House about the extent to which restorative justice has been used in sentencing young people under the age of 18 as a result of the riots in August?
Lord McNally
I will have to write to the noble Baroness with the specific details but I know that it has been used much more in recent times, and with good reason. It is interesting that Resolution, the magazine of the restorative justice system, reported an ICM poll after the riots that said 88 per cent of victims thought that restorative justice should be used and 94 per cent said that offenders should be held responsible for the repair and harm caused to victims. Restorative justice, when it is effectively used both as a punishment and as a rehabilitation measure has been shown to be much more effective in securing non-reoffending than sending to secure accommodation. I will write to the noble Baroness with the facts that bear out that assertion.
The Lord Bishop of London
In the light of the events in August and of the substantial reductions in the youth service in most London boroughs and other places, do the Government have any plans to assist those voluntary organisations with a proven track record in engaging with hard-to-reach young people, many of whom were involved in the events of August? I am thinking of organisations such as XLP.
Lord McNally
Within the budget constraints that affect both central and local government, we are looking to the voluntary sector to continue to play a part in this area. Where and when we can make resources available, we will do so. There is no doubt that where the voluntary sector, including churches, plays a positive role in a community, the impact on such issues as vandalism and small-scale crime is very favourable, so we will certainly be keeping that in mind.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, in view of the Minister’s answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, does he see any tension or contradiction between his declared support for restorative justice and the attitude taken by the courts to many of those who were caught up in the riots?
Lord McNally
Possibly. In the end, it must be the courts, the judges and the magistrates who determine sentencing. It was right that the courts took into account in some of those sentences the fact that the offences occurred in the process of a riot. The riot was a legitimate factor for the courts to take into account in determining sentencing. In the broad sweep of things, I believe, as I indicated to the noble Baroness, that the evidence is that proper restorative justice that has a real impact on the offender is more effective in avoiding repeat offences than sending the offender to a young offender institution. I hope that we can develop a sentencing policy that is based on the facts and what works rather than on knee-jerk reactions.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, given the successes of restorative justice, how widely are the principles being used and taught in pupil referral units and, more widely, in schools to enable young people to know that they have to take responsibility for their own actions?
Lord McNally
Increasingly so. This is one of the things that most attract me and others to the idea of restorative justice bringing the offender face to face with the victim. We are being very careful in consulting victims and victims’ organisations about how restorative justice fits into this. There is no doubt that sometimes a face-to-face meeting between the offender and the victim has a beneficial effect on both. On the other hand, you do not want a system that revisits on the victim a trauma from which they have recovered. In that respect, we are, I hope, being sensitive. People genuinely want to see restorative justice that has an element of real punishment and real work in it to win public confidence in the exercise.
Lord Imbert
My Lords, does the Minister agree that victim satisfaction, which is one of the cornerstones of restorative justice, is the most important factor in justice at any level?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I agree entirely. One of the things that we are consulting on, working on and hoping to bring forward a paper on shortly is the greater involvement of victims in the justice process. Since it was the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, who asked the question, I also find that the buy-in by police to restorative justice is another factor that gives me encouragement that it is the right way forward.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, I understand that HMIC is looking at the riots to learn lessons for the police about the handling of riots in the future. When will that report be coming out and will it be freely available for people to see?
Lord McNally
I would sincerely hope so. There are, as the noble Lord will know, a number of cross-Government studies as well. I would hope, again, that those are published, because I think it is important that we have a proper, healthy debate, based on the facts, to show us the way forward after the summer disturbances.