Knife Crime
Lord McNally Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, this has been a very constructive debate, and the way in which it was introduced invited a cross-party approach, which we should carry forward. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about the quality of the briefings we have received. It is a good idea for the House authorities to look at them. They should be lodged in the Library and be available, because they have been extremely good.
My locus in speaking is that I was for three and a half years a Minister at the Ministry of Justice and then, for a further three years, chairman of the Youth Justice Board. Throughout this period, almost all budgets at all levels were cut. We have to take into account, though, that we were recovering from the coronary thrombosis that the financial system had in 2008. People sometimes forget that about government expenditure from 2010 onwards.
Let me concentrate on three areas where that experience may be helpful. The first is the period when I was chairman of the Youth Justice Board, which was one of the most fulfilling and constructive of my life. We have a great asset in the Youth Justice Board. Charlie Taylor’s hope and intention to move from what we have now, which are in fact child prisons, to places of more constructive rehabilitation for young offenders, should be supported and encouraged. Also, although they too have had the pressure of a squeeze on resources, youth offending teams are amazingly effective. This is exactly what has come through in today’s debate: they are cross-disciplinary and include experts from all aspects of local authorities and policing, and the cross-referencing of the work produces results. One thing that always sticks in my mind is a visit to Manchester, where the policeman on the YOT saw for the first time a very persistent young offender from a local care home. He said, “That kid’s autistic”, which he was, yet he had gone through a lot of his life and a lot of experts without anybody noticing. It is this cross-referencing of the YOTs and—to make the point again—the localism of their experience that gives them their strength.
Secondly, I want to say something about the police. When he was Metropolitan Police Commissioner, the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, was very committed to police officers being attached to schools. Attending a lecture the other night by Cressida Dick, I was very pleased to find that she is keeping up that commitment of putting policemen in schools, as contacts with the local community. That is again something that gives us hope.
However, the police still have a real problem with recruitment. I asked a Question 40 years ago in the other place about why police recruitment from black and ethnic minorities was so low. I made the same point 20 years ago when I was first in this place. It still worries me that we are trying to police black and Asian communities with white police forces. Each police chief gives me assurances about what they are doing for recruitment, but recruitment and retention are still poor. One of the things that most struck me happened during a visit from some local government workers from Birmingham. One, an Asian lady whose children were about the same age as mine, said, “My son really wants to become a policeman”. She hesitated and then said, “Of course, you couldn’t say that down at the mosque”. It sent a shiver through my spine. There is still this feeling that the police are “them” in many of these communities; David Lammy’s report warns of that as well. We have to persevere with recruiting and retaining people from these communities, so that the police force is seen not as some outside force but as part of their community.
Finally, I echo the point about the importance of sport. When I arrived at the MoJ, I was told there was no evidence that sport could be influential in rehabilitation. That seemed silly. All my life I have seen kids who could have gone wrong but had not, for all the reasons my noble friend Lord Addington gave. One of the most influential youth workers I ever saw was straight out of central casting; he was running a boxing club in Durham and, my God, did he get respect, and did he look after those kids.
I am not going to get the flashing clock, but we might take some money from the betting industry, and from our wealthy football industry, to put into some of these youth services that are being so depleted.
Children and Families Bill
Lord McNally Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord McColl of Dulwich
My Lords, I support this amendment. We need to take notice of what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has said, given her enormous experience. Let us leave out “mediation”.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)
My Lords, when Rupert Murdoch appeared before a committee down the corridor, he said it was the humblest day of his life. It is not for quite the same reasons but I approach this Bill with more than a certain humility, given the expertise in this Committee. I have listened to a goodly part of the debates. It is common cause that we are trying to get this important Bill right in terms of what is in it. That is the value of this Committee in this Room. It is less frantic than in the other place, less susceptible to the passing trade and more for those with genuine expertise. I approach Part 2, which is the section I shall be dealing with, with a desire to listen and to try to explain how and why the Government have come to the position they have reached thus far in the process of the Bill.
The Family Justice Review recommended that parents who need additional support to resolve a dispute should first attend a mediation, information and assessment meeting—a MIAM—to receive information about mediation and be assessed for suitability to mediate. It is very important that there should be an early assessment for mediation. That was the intention behind the existing pre-application protocol introduced in April 2011, which we intend to strengthen under this clause.
With reference to the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and my noble friend Lord McColl, we feel that the name of the meeting should convey to those who will attend it something about its purpose. An “assessment and information meeting” would not meet that objective in our view. Indeed, prospective applicants and respondents might be reluctant to attend such a meeting without knowing what they will be assessed for. The Family Mediation Council has published requirements for the conduct of MIAMs which describe clearly the elements to be addressed by the mediator. They include providing,
“information about all appropriate methods of family dispute resolution, including but not limited to mediation … collaborative law, solicitor-led negotiation and litigation”.
We intend to invite the Family Procedure Rule Committee to make rules that include reference to those requirements.
Turning to the amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, I recognise the concerns about safeguarding access to the courts. The Government do not intend that vulnerable parties should be put at risk or be prevented accessing the court. However, involving the court in every case at the stage before proceedings have started to determine whether it is reasonable for an applicant to attend a MIAM would be unworkable. It would impact on the courts and cause delay, particularly in public law care and supervision cases, and would undermine our efforts to ensure that court involvement is avoided wherever appropriate and safe in private family disputes. We agree that the requirement to attend a MIAM should not apply in circumstances where it is appropriate or necessary for a court to make decisions. That includes where there is evidence of domestic violence, child protection concerns or other reasonable grounds for exemption such as urgency or the significant risk of a miscarriage of justice.
The pre-application protocol in operation since April 2011 already places an expectation on a prospective applicant in relevant family proceedings first to attend a MIAM, but allows for exemptions in the circumstances I just mentioned. A family mediator may also determine, on the basis of their professional judgment, that the nature of the case makes it unsuitable for a MIAM. A mediator might make such a determination on the basis of a telephone discussion with the prospective parties. The current exemptions already reflect our position that adequate safeguards should be in place, and we intend to invite the rule committee broadly to replicate these in making rules under this clause.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, raised the question of the quality and training of mediators. The Government understand the concerns about the need for appropriate training and quality standards for mediators who conduct a MIAM. Family mediators who conduct MIAMs are already required by the Family Mediation Council, or FMC, to meet minimum standards and other detailed requirements, and only certified mediators can conduct a MIAM. Time does not permit me to list these requirements but I am happy to place a copy of them in the House Library and send them to noble Lords.
The existing pre-application protocol specifies that “family mediator” means a family mediator who is subject to the FMC’s code of practice and who is authorised to undertake MIAMs in accordance with the requirements set by the FMC. We propose to invite the Family Procedure Rule Committee to make rules of court under subsection (2)(b), which makes specific reference to those requirements. The rule committee is mandated by statute to make rules about practice and procedure in family proceedings, and we believe it is appropriate that the committee makes these rules about statutory MIAMs.
Clause 10 is intended to strengthen the existing protocol. We are building on a system that has now been in operation for two and a half years. The rule committee has a statutory duty to consider consultation on draft rules, including those to be made under this clause. The detail is, I recognise, important. I am happy to say that the rule committee has decided to consult on the draft rules so that there can be wider scrutiny of them, and it plans to consult shortly. My officials will ensure that the views and concerns expressed by noble Lords are conveyed to the rule committee as part of that consultation process. If any noble Lord would like to receive and consider the draft rules, my officials can ask the rule committee to arrange that.
While checking whether I have covered the other points that were raised, I should just say that we are standing by the point that the MIAM should have mediation in it. It is not helpful for it to be absent. I understand the point that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, made. Even from my limited knowledge, I know of the confusion that there is between mediation and marriage guidance counselling. People who have long decided to get out of a marriage do not want to be guided; they want to be helped through what is a traumatic period. However, I hope that we have this right. The accreditation of mediators is safeguarded. We do not believe that the Government are best placed to undertake a regulatory role in this area, but the guidance is there.
It is interesting that the MoJ has commissioned some independent qualitative research to look at barriers to accessing MIAMs and mediation. This will include looking at the experience of clients who did not attend a MIAM and the reasons for that. We expect to receive a number of emerging findings from that research in early November, and I will certainly make the research available to the House as the Bill progresses.
The rule committee is meeting on 4 November and will seek views in particular from family practitioners who work every day with users of the family justice system. The rule committee itself also has considerable expertise and we believe it is the appropriate body to do this work. My officials will ensure that the views and concerns expressed by noble Lords are conveyed to the committee, and we will make sure that its work is made available to those interested. I hope that with those explanations and rationalisation of our position, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, before the noble and learned Baroness responds, as I understand it her amendments are not seeking to change the content of such a meeting and in particular did not seek to take out the term “mediation” at line 41 on page 9 in the list of what information is to be provided. I understand what she says about not deterring people simply because of a title. Is it necessary to call these meetings anything other than family meetings, just for the purpose of getting people there to deal with the issues as they arise? It seems an unnecessary obstacle.
Lord McNally
That is the very interesting nature of this debate—whether removing the term will mean that it is not on the tin, so people will not be sure what they are letting themselves in for, or whether, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is suggesting, it being on the tin will deter people from opening the tin. As I said, we have commissioned research on this. We are only at Committee stage. I will make the outcome of that research available. There is no absolute certainty at this stage as to which of us is right about this.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, a Division has been called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 6.27 pm.
Lord McNally
My Lords, before I was so rudely interrupted, I was about to prompt withdrawal of the amendment by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who I hoped would be convinced by my eloquence. What I was saying when the bell went is that the term “mediation” in the title helps people to know what the purpose is and encourages them to be brought into it. The debate has been interesting. There are those who are arguing that it will frighten people away. We have commissioned some research and perhaps we should await that research and then return to this debate. When the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has seen the research she will say, “Oh, my goodness, I was wrong. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, was right all along”. Mind you, we are paying for the research. On that basis, I hope that she will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
I apologise but just before the Division Bell rang the Minister talked about knowing what was on the tin. The problem with the word “mediation” is that it conveys a range of different concepts, even within the professional world, and certainly if you are a warring parent. I am not saying that we should not indicate what is going to happen in the meeting and that people may be asked to look at how they can approach their relationships, if not mend them, but “mediation” is a difficult word for everybody, inside and outside the profession, and I think that we should look for another one.
Lord McNally
My approach to this Committee is that I genuinely do listen and take back its findings not only to my expert advisers but to other experts in this field who are not members of this Committee but will read its proceedings. If people on either side of the argument want to write to me and relate their experiences, we may be able to make a definitive decision on this issue at a later stage. I will certainly not go to the wall over the name that is used; I want an effective process.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I say to the Minister that I am perfectly prepared to be wrong; I often am. However, I think that on this occasion I am probably right and I shall be very interested to see the research. I would very much like a copy of the draft rules. I used to be the chairman of the Family Procedure Rule Committee. I have to confess that I tried not to attend that committee if I could avoid it as it is quite the most boring committee I have ever sat on. However, I should like to see the draft rules and would be most grateful if they could be provided.
The noble Lord knows that it is the practice in the Moses Room to withdraw the amendment and I will, of course, do so, but before I do so I should like to make one or two points. I am extremely indebted to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, for making the point that the title should be neutral. That was what I was searching for, although I did not use that word. The neutral title could be “family information meetings” or, as has been sensibly suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, “family meetings”. Family information meetings might be slightly better as people would know that that was what they were going to get.
I am entirely supportive of mediation in the right cases, and in all but 5% of cases it will be right, if they ever go to court at all, which most of them do not. Where neither party is legally aided, they will both battle through the real difficulties of making their applications and so on in the county court or magistrates’ court and try to cope with something which is completely unfamiliar to them. Therefore, the information meeting, and a requirement to have one, seem to me entirely admirable.
The only problem is that there are in a sense two stages to this because mediation is different from information and assessment. It imposes upon people a requirement to try to settle. You cannot have compulsory mediation. You can have compulsory information and assessment, but you cannot require people to settle. That is something I was taught as a young barrister and I have learnt all the way through my legal and judicial career that people cannot be made to settle. The purpose of mediation is to get them to settle or to try to tackle the issue in a better way, but that could be achieved through the provision of information and an assessment. One has to understand that mediation is in a different class from information and assessment.
I throw out my next point as a possibility for the Family Procedure Rule Committee and the Minister’s experts to look at. I am not suggesting that this is necessarily a good idea but I throw it out for consideration. I would be content if the forms that the parties receive put the words “information”, “assessment” and “mediation” in brackets. Parties could cross out the word “mediation” to show that they are prepared to opt for information and assessment but are not prepared to go through a process of trying to make them settle. That might just do the trick if you want to keep the word “mediation”.
However, I am very concerned about the small number of people who are most likely to go to court. You do not go to court if you can reach agreement. Some 90% do not go to court or go to court only to obtain an agreed order, 5% can be persuaded to go through mediation, and probably mediation is just what they need, but 5% cannot. What could happen if there is a requirement for mediation is that particularly the man, although sometimes the woman, will get to the meeting with the trained mediator and the minute the mediator starts to say, “Well, could you not agree to this?”, he will storm out and not listen to what he needs to understand as to how the court proceedings will go. That is my real worry. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
If that is addressed to me, the answer is certainly yes. I have a distinct recollection of a case in which the mother left the family at a very early stage and the father and his mother had to look after the child. After a while, the child’s mother decided to come back. She had had a relationship which soured after a year or two and she thought that she would come back. You have to take account of the existing situation and the paramountcy of the welfare of the child, which may alter over time and need to be reviewed from time to time. There is plenty of machinery to do that, although, as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said, one’s time may be consumed by other things. However, so long as you can get a review, that can be dealt with.
Lord McNally
My Lords, this has been an extremely important and high-quality debate. I am not a lawyer but I have spent three and a half years at the MoJ. Therefore, when the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that she had the greatest possible respect for my opinion, I am aware that the term “greatest possible respect” is reserved for the most insulting comment that a lawyer is about to deliver to an opponent.
I was interested in the joust between the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. When I was first given this ministerial responsibility, I had speaking engagements in Birmingham and Putney that arose within a few days of each other. I experienced some of the doubts that have been expressed in today’s debate about the road we were going down. What interested me was that at both meetings two social workers in the audience said quite unprompted exactly the same thing to me. They said, “Don’t underestimate the willingness of women to use their children in these battles”. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, pointed out that in the 25 years since the original legislation was passed there has been a change in what she described as family dynamics. We are trying to deal with the situation and get the wording right.
Even in this debate there are things that take us down cul-de-sacs. We are not following the Australian model; in fact we have learnt from it. Our proposal does not require the court to balance these two factors—I will come back to this. There is no idea of 50/50 parenting. One of the problems when this was debated down at the other end was that the press coverage was very much in terms of this being a major step change. I welcome the approach of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, in her opening remarks. The paramountcy of the welfare of the child is still there in this legislation.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, from her vast experience, claims that the way it is worded produces a contradiction. Let me try to explain our approach to see whether we can convince her, but I suspect that we will be coming back to this issue on Report. It is not possible for the presumption to clash with the paramountcy principle. The paramountcy principle is not a rebuttable presumption. The child’s welfare must be the court’s paramount consideration. If the court does not believe that the child’s welfare is served by the involvement of a parent, it will not order any such involvement, and the clause does not require it to do so. We are not saying that the court must make an order that involves both parents, nor are we seeking to define the nature of the involvement which the court may order. We are certainly not making any assumption about how the child’s time may be divided. That is not what the clause is about.
The Explanatory Notes set out clearly how the clause operates. We have included a process chart as well as an example situation to demonstrate how we would expect the presumption to work in practice. In addition, I have provided further information on the clause, which sets out in detail how the clause will work in practice, and it addresses the concerns that have been raised. We will also ensure that clear and accessible information is available for parents about the range of changes we are making. This will help to address wider concerns about the risk that the clause may be misunderstood. We have deliberately avoided defining the nature of involvement, which the court may order. The presumption stands if any form of involvement can take place without risk of harm to the child and would further the child’s welfare. We have used the word “involvement” as the simplest, most neutral approach to express the full spectrum of ways in which a child can have a relationship with a parent. We believe that the introduction of a presumption in legislation is the best and clearest way to ensure that children are able to benefit from the involvement of both parents following family separation.
This clause is part of the consistent messaging that will be conveyed throughout the dispute resolution process about the valuable role that both parents can play in their child’s life, whether they are together or apart. The deliberate reference to a presumption sends a strong signal to both parents and others as to how the court makes its decision. It makes clear that it is the norm rather than the exception for both parents to be involved in the child’s life. On the points raised, I think that I have already referred to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, about whether it was 50/50. The wording in the clause does not suggest or imply in any way equal or substantial shared time. The Explanatory Notes make it clear that this is not the expectation.
As regards the central argument put by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, which I suspect we will continue to discuss on Report, we believe that there are no conflicting presumptions. The parental involvement presumption will always be rebutted in a situation in which the child’s welfare requires it, and the paramountcy principle is not rebuttable.
Gaza
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has been in this House long enough to know that she is now abusing Question Time. I know that she feels strongly about this matter but she must ask a short question.
Baroness Tonge
I am glad to ask a short question. Can the Minister tell this House when the Government will demand that Israel pays for the damage it has done to the infrastructure of Gaza and allow materials through the crossings? In the light of these conditions and the continuing expansion of the settlements in the West Bank, will we be supporting the upgrade of the EU-Israel Association Agreement in Brussels tomorrow?
Crime and Courts Bill [HL]
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
We are addressing these issues in wonderfully archaic language. The “scandalisation” of judges; the “murmuring” of judges in Scotland, which puts me in mind of the murmuration of starlings—it is, apparently, the collective noun for starlings—and here we are in this High Court of Parliament considering this arcane offence.
Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, I deprecate the tendency of politicians of all political colours and Ministers of different Governments publicly to criticise judges when decisions have gone against them. I also deprecate the tendency of the tabloid press in particular to denounce the judiciary for perceived leniency, or whatever it might be, from time to time. However, as other Members of the Committee have made clear, that does not justify applying a criminal offence and criminal sanctions to those who are critical, rightly or wrongly, of what the judiciary has done.
Scandalising the judiciary has not always been the province of politicians or the media. One of the most frequent scandalisers of the judiciary was that eminent Conservative lawyer and Lord Chancellor, Lord Birkenhead, known as FE Smith. He frequently clashed with judges. On one occasion the judge, in an irritated spasm, inquired, “Mr Smith, what do you think I am here for?”, to which he replied, “My Lord, it is not for me to question the inscrutable workings of providence”. That came as near as anything to scandalising that particular judge. I do not think it was Mr Justice Darling, whose reputation has been adequately canvassed tonight.
We certainly support this amendment. It is clearly timely to dispose of the revival of a procedure that is quite antiquated and unnecessary. I hope that the Government will accept the amendment.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, every so often this House produces a little nugget of a debate that is extremely important and that will bear further reading and study. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions, and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his murmuring of starlings.
Lord McNally
Murmuration. We learn something new every day in this House. I also thank him for another good FE Smith story.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, introduced the amendment with his usual eloquence and well-structured argument, marred only by a terrible joke about Fifty Shades of Grey, but at least yet another book was plugged in this debate. We have all been rushing to eBay to get the remaining copies of Borrie on defamation, which will be worth getting; and of course Peter Hain’s memoirs, as has been rightly pointed out, have been given far greater coverage than I recall their getting when they were published.
Nevertheless, what has been discussed is extremely important. I very much welcome the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell. As a judge in Northern Ireland, he and his fellow judges were so important in upholding the rule of law in the most difficult of circumstances, and in so doing he not only has our admiration but we are all in his debt for his courage and consistency. For him to say that he thought that the law was not necessary weighs heavily in making any judgment. I also share the views of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about getting the balance right between politicians and judges.
I understand what the Prime Minister meant when he spoke in the other place about there always being a little bit of rough and tumble between the two in the modern age. I think I have said at the Dispatch Box that a little bit of dynamic tension between politicians and the judiciary in a democracy does not go amiss. The warning from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, is correct, and he will not be surprised to know that the present Lord Chancellor—I cannot speak for the present Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General—has not been slow to remind exasperated Ministers that it does not help to start opining on this. The balance of contributions was right that it will happen occasionally, but if it became too much of a free-for-all it would genuinely undermine public confidence in the judiciary and in the workings of our legal system. The warnings are well made.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord McNally
“Sentencing where there is aggravation related to transgender identity
(1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
(2) Section 146 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
(3) In the heading, for “or sexual orientation” substitute “, sexual orientation or transgender identity”.
(4) In subsection (2)(a)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert—“(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or”.(5) In subsection (2)(b)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert “, or(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender.”(6) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment.”
(7) Schedule 21 (determination of minimum term in relation to mandatory life sentence) is amended as follows.
(8) For paragraph 3 substitute—
“3 For the purposes of this Schedule—
(a) an offence is aggravated by sexual orientation if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(i) or (b)(i);(b) an offence is aggravated by disability if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(ii) or (b)(ii);(c) an offence is aggravated by transgender identity if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(iii) or (b)(iii).”(9) In paragraph 5(2)(g) (30 year starting point), after “aggravated by sexual orientation” insert “, disability or transgender identity”.
(10) Section 241 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
(11) In the heading, for “or sexual orientation” substitute “, sexual orientation or transgender identity”.
(12) In subsection (2)(a)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert— “(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or”.(13) In subsection (2)(b)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert “, or(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender.”(14) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment.””
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, Amendment 176ZZA deals with hate crime. Hate crime is abhorrent and the criminal justice system should be seen to treat it severely. We want to ensure that offenders should be in no doubt that they will face more serious penalties for this type of crime. The effect of this government amendment is to add “transgender identity” to Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provides for the sentence to be aggravated where the offender demonstrates hostility towards the victim on the basis of a specified personal characteristic. Currently, Section 146 applies to hostility based on the victim’s,
“sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation) … or … disability (or presumed disability)”.
Section 145 makes similar provision in relation to hostility based on the victim’s race or religion. In addition, the amendment adds references to transgender identity and disability to paragraph 5 of Schedule 21, so that murders aggravated on the basis of hostility towards the victim on those grounds will attract a 30-year starting point.
The amendments are straightforward but I should be clear that “transgender” is an umbrella term that includes, but is not restricted to, being transsexual. It will be for the courts to determine in individual cases whether or not the words or behaviour of the offender constitute hostility based on the victim’s transgender identity or presumed transgender identity.
The Government consider that all five monitored strands of hate crime should be treated equally under these particular provisions. This sends a strong message and should, I hope, give more confidence to victims in reporting these dreadful crimes. I beg to move.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, some of the saddest cases that I found in prisons when I was inspecting them were of people suffering from gender dysphoria, who were hoping to be able to change their gender while in prison. This imposed great difficulties on the prisons in which these people were because the facilities were not there to cope with them while they were going through that change. At the same time they faced considerable hostility; indeed, the hate crime that is mentioned in this amendment applies also to the attitude that other prisoners use towards these people in prison. If this is enacted as part of the Bill, will adjustments be made to prison regulations to allow action to be taken against those who show such hatred towards people suffering from gender dysphoria while in prison?
Lord Beecham
My Lords, it took the good Lord seven days to create heaven and earth and it has taken the noble Lord only a day longer in Committee to come up with something on which I can offer him the Opposition’s wholehearted congratulations. We are very pleased with the amendments, which cover two points: the alignment of the starting point of sentencing to cut across all the categories; and the inclusion of transgender people in the scope of the Bill.
Yesterday’s Guardian was a disturbing edition, showing that at the moment disabled people generally are being singled out for victimisation in society as a whole. I hope very much that the signal that today’s amendment gives will help to counter that disgraceful and worrying development. I congratulate the Minister again on bringing forward the amendments.
Lord McNally
My Lords, to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I cannot imagine that actions such as he described are not already covered by prison regulations, but I will examine that and write on the matter.
Lord Beecham
I think that that is right, and indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said very much the same. It is quite possible, within the ambit of the amendment, to achieve that objective. There may well be cases where what some call the “short sharp shock” may work. I think it will work in probably only a relatively small number of cases, but the option should certainly be open.
As I say, I have some reservations about the second amendment, but I wholly endorse the first one. This is a matter that we need to continue to evaluate, but above all we need to ensure that the probation service in particular is given the resources that it needs to work with offenders so as to avoid not only the social and individual harm that is done but also the enormous cost to the public purse of reoffending, where the rates remain unduly high.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate. It has been an extremely useful one. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for reminding us that this is the 200th birthday of Charles Dickens, who gave us the most well-known phrase about the law: “The law is an ass”. He also gave us the best example of the futility of litigation in Bleak House. Dickens was certainly not in awe of the law, and very few of his legal characters are particularly warm.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened days we would all agree that the law on that particular aspect was an ass.
Lord McNally
I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, “The law is an ass”, is used more widely than just in terms of the marital relations referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas. But I digress.
Lord McNally
Yes, I started it, but in terms of the quality of the debate, to have a sitting magistrate and a former Lord Chief Justice along with everything in between reflects the range of the debate we have had. I can only say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that providing a copy of Hansard for every judge and magistrate would, in these straitened times, be beyond the Ministry of Justice. However, it is an interesting idea, and of course magistrates can now go online to read our words, so they should certainly do that.
Where I can follow the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Ramsbotham, and others, is in paying tribute to my noble friend Lady Linklater. She invites the term “do-gooder”, and it is a proud badge to wear. She is a wise, realistic and practical do-gooder, and that is why I personally benefit from her advice, as does this House. I should also say that my own commitment to both the magistracy and the probation service is as strong as that of any Member of this House. I believe that both are very important parts of our criminal justice system.
I listened to what my noble friend said about the need for information to be shared between probation officers and magistrates and of course I agree that that is important. But coming back again to a comment made in our earlier debate, I am not convinced that this aim actually requires a legislative provision. I welcome and encourage the sharing of information by probation trusts with magistrates. This already happens in a number of ways. Some are formal and relate to individual cases. For example, when probation supplies a pre-sentence report, the probation staff will outline for the court the suitability of an offender for a particular programme or requirement and the availability of that programme in the local area. There are existing liaison arrangements at both national and local level. At national level, a forum meets quarterly, bringing sentencers, probation and Ministry of Justice officials together to allow for the sharing of information on the national picture.
I was interested to hear of the experience of noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, of local liaison meetings. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, will not mind me saying that, in private conversation, she has expressed the view that such local liaison meetings have fallen into disuse.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
Perhaps I could put the record straight. It is not that they have fallen into disuse, but that they are no longer common practice throughout the country. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is nodding his head. There are some areas where they are alive and well, and others, probably in the majority, where they are either very poor or non-existent.
Lord McNally
I am grateful for that clarification, because I think that such meetings are important. When we discussed this matter previously, it was suggested that a bar to the effectiveness of the meetings might be that magistrates who engage with the work of probation trusts are unable to claim expenses to attend liaison or other meetings with probation. I am happy to say that Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service is already looking at, and plans to consult on, some of these issues relating to magistrates’ expenses. I suggest that a better approach, working with the Magistrates’ Association, Bench chairs and the senior judiciary, would be to come to a practical solution rather than create more statutory requirements
There are arrangements for local liaison meetings, and I hope that what I have just said helps to plug some of the gaps that the noble Baroness just referred to. The arrangements are governed by a protocol issued by the senior presiding judge setting out the parameters for any discussions between magistrates and probation. A protocol exists because there is a need to ensure that there is no suggestion that sentencers have been influenced by probation priorities or resourcing decisions. The existing arrangements therefore allow for flexibility, with due propriety, as to what should be discussed.
I am not aware of any particular problems with probation trusts supplying information to the judiciary. If any noble Lords are aware of any problems, I would be grateful for details which I could follow up. I certainly think that magistrates should be encouraged to visit both prisons and probation regularly and not just as part of their initial training. I am not aware of any obstacle to them doing so. I do not therefore consider that there is any need for a new statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to make arrangements for magistrates to visit.
Amendment 176ZB seeks to deal with the different issue of the use of short custodial sentences. The amendment would place a duty on courts to consider all alternatives before imposing a short custodial term. It would also require the court, if imposing a short custodial sentence, to explain why alternative sentences were not considered appropriate. I understand the intention behind the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has argued, short custodial sentences can be less effective in tackling reoffending than community sentences. They can mean that an offender during their short time in prison loses their employment and accommodation, all of which is a hindrance to their rehabilitation.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I do not quite follow my noble friend’s reasoned argumentation, because Amendment 176ZB, put forward by my noble friend Lady Linklater, does not prohibit short sentences but states that if a short sentence is imposed a court must give reasons. That seems in line with what the Minister was saying previously.
Lord McNally
That is why the amendment is not necessary. Since a number of noble Lords had referred to the damaging elements of short sentences, I thought that it was worth putting on the record that, as a lay man in all this, I have had pointed out to me by people with considerable experience areas where the short sentence is effective. I certainly acknowledge that my noble friend said as much in her introduction. Her amendment is not an attempt to prohibit short custodial sentences; rather it seeks to create a kind of presumption that a short custodial sentence will not be imposed unless the alternatives are considered and found to be inappropriate. Such a statutory provision already exists. Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 places restrictions on imposing discretionary custodial sentences. Section 152(2) sets out what is sometimes called the “custodial threshold”, the test that has to be met before a custodial sentence can be imposed:
“The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or the combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it, was so serious that neither a fine alone or a community sentence can be justified for the offence”.
That is the current situation. I suggest to my noble friend that the current requirement is stronger and more wide-ranging than that proposed in this amendment.
I welcome a reminder of the importance of imposing short custodial sentences in essence as a last resort. I see, as I have always done, the full importance of rehabilitation. However, I do not think that this amendment adds significantly to the current law. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, would the Minister seriously consider the suggestion by my noble friend Lady Linklater about the proper liaison between the probation service and the magistrate? I chair a commission by the Magistrates’ Association on the future of summary justice. Evidence has been taken from across the country. What comes out very clearly is the extent to which there is effectively good rapport where you have good liaison between the magistracy and the probation liaison committees or probation officers. But there are a number of areas within the country where that does not happen. Could the Minister establish in which areas magistrates’ courts have proper liaison? If that information does not exist, would he issue guidelines so that they can be recommended good practice for this continuous liaison, which is in the interests of both justice and the offender?
Lord McNally
If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater, it is my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I will take away that suggestion. As I said, we are looking at the question of expenses in helping to grease the wheels of better liaison. If my noble friend’s suggestion is feasible, I am sure that we can take it forward. I will certainly take it away and think about it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit around the country to carry out an audit of what the situation is in their particular circuit. The presiding judges have a great deal of influence and control over the way that the judicial system works within their bailiwick. Requiring each presiding judge to be in charge of such an investigation is a better way to go about it than starting from the centre—from London—and working outward.
Lord McNally
I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I suspect that the present Lord Chief Justice might start breathing down my neck. I note what my noble friend has suggested and I will take that back to think about.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extraordinarily interesting and well informed debate, which is really important for how we will take things forward in future. I will whizz through some of the very helpful comments that were made.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is always very wise. He said such nice things about me that I could only cap them with my endless admiration for him. He pointed out how important the individual is—the hand held out to lead somebody out of a dark place where we have possibly stuck them. Sharing experiences is of unbelievable importance. I must get the Dickens quotation from him. I know exactly what he means about the press exacerbating the problems of crime.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is the voice of such wisdom and experience. The idea of a prospectus across the services is very good. Is it not interesting that we do not have such a thing? If sentences were linked to behavioural progress, that would make those kinds of targets meaningful instead of being independent of each other.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is my hero. He said that he knew that sentencing was not working well when he was in charge. That showed great honesty and insight. Of course, we both agree that there are times when certain sentences, including custody, are the one appropriate disposal. We accept that. The idea that some of these arguments could make a difference is a wonderful and extraordinary thing. I hope that everybody heard the range of the arguments we have had today.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for what he said. I am not sure that I entirely approve of the idea of using custody as the appropriate sanction for a breach. If a community sentence is not working, maybe the community sentence could be reviewed rather than saying, “This has not worked; we must go for breach”.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
I certainly think that community sentences can be reviewed and beefed up in some way. We have very clear guidelines on that point. The only point I made was that the vast majority of short custodial sentences that I give are for breaches and maybe multiple breaches. That was my only point.
Lord McNally
My noble friend Lady Linklater was on the point about community sentences made by the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Ponsonby. Probation staff can take back to court offenders who have made significant progress on their requirements in a community sentence. Provision in Clause 62 clarifies the position when community orders come to an end and requirements have been completed. It is already there for community sentences. As I said, we will also consult more on making community sentences effective.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
I thank my noble friend for that and for the clarification. It is very good news that that is being taken forward.
I listened to and heard what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said on the importance of post-prison support. He suggested that the clang of the prison door might have some effect. I do not really believe that, and the evidence for it is not substantial enough to actually influence policy. I have gone into a cell and heard a prison door clang on me. Even when I have not—to my knowledge—done anything too terrible, that is unpleasant but I question whether it changes the lives of people who are probably already in a very bad place.
Finally, I respond to the Minister. I am not very happy with “do-gooder”, if he does not mind. I am glad that he is pro magistrates and probation. I reiterate that there are some places where liaison committees exist and work well. Yet, if the reality was that the provision was in place and working well, I would not be here, nor would the Magistrates’ Association, the Probation Service and all the others behind me. There is a real sense of a need to beef up and put on some statutory basis the provision that will facilitate this and make the things that we know we need to have in place happen properly. If it was adequate as it is, I would not be here; the fact is that there is a severe deficit in what we are trying to do to make this society a safer and better place, and to make the way we work with offenders more constructive, effective and cost-effective. The fact is that 67 per cent of people on short prison sentences reoffend—that is over two-thirds—and £7.1 billion a year is wasted on sustaining and dealing with the results of such offenders. That is a very important thing, which I hope that my noble friend the Minister will not forget.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Lord McNally Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, intimidation of witnesses is itself an offence, so one has to put these things into perspective.
The noble Lord mentioned a Keeling schedule. I note the point that he has made and shall take advice on it.
I am slightly amazed that either Justice or the noble Lord has cavilled at this proposal. It is said that decisions regarding remand and about sentences are completely separate. So they are, as the law stands; the question asked by this government proposal is whether they ought to be.
The Government consider that, in general, defendants should not be remanded in custody where it is apparent to the court that there is no real prospect of their being imprisoned if convicted. Let me be clear: this is not any Alice in Wonderland idea of sentence first, verdict afterwards. The court will not engage in a sentencing exercise in advance of the trial. The provision affects only cases where it is clear at the outset that the alleged crime is not serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence. Where that is the case, remanding the defendant in custody is generally disproportionate and not a sensible use of prison space. That sort of defendant will not pose a serious threat to public safety. Those defendants who pose such a threat will not pass the “no real prospect” test and so will still be liable to be remanded in custody.
Some respondents to the Green Paper argued that special considerations might apply where offences are committed in a domestic setting, in that an offence that does not require custody might nevertheless imply a risk of domestic violence if the defendant were bailed—the noble Lord raised that issue. We recognise the force of that argument, and have taken account of it. The provision incorporates a special exception to deal with that sort of situation. However, remand places are too expensive to waste on defendants who do not need them. We want to ensure that they are used only where it is necessary to protect the public.
I take note of what the noble Lord has said. I will consider and reflect on it but we believe that this is one simple way of stopping the use of scarce prison accommodation for people who, once they are tried and sentenced, are not going to be sent to prison. Clause 83 and Schedule 11 should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
What would the noble Lord say to the case of failure to surrender? It is very common in magistrates’ courts to get people who repeatedly commit low-level offences and have no regard for court orders. They just do not turn up to court. Is the noble Lord really saying that there should be no threat of keeping them in custody until their trial?
Lord McNally
They can be tried in their absence and of course they can be picked up and put into custody. We are trying to deal with a very large number of people who go through our court system, are held in custody—taking up valuable prison space—but who from the very beginning it is clear will not receive any kind of prison sentence. If people do not turn up, of course they are in danger of being either tried in their absence or picked up and held in custody. If people try to intimidate witnesses, they commit a further crime for which they will undoubtedly end up in custody. In many ways, both Justice and the noble Lord are straining at gnats here. We are trying to deal with the very bottom end of cases. I will reflect on what he said, particularly on the Keeling schedule, and come back on Report.