Children and Families Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Grand Committee

My only concern with Amendment 55 is the reference to indirect involvement. I hope that there is no intention to make it easier to relegate fathers to an indirect role in their children’s lives.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to say a word or two about this problem because I had the responsibility, rather a long time ago now, of formulating the provisions which are here being subject to amendment. The most important principle was then laid down, and acknowledged as being an important principle, that the case has to be decided in the light of the best interests of the particular child in the particular circumstances in which that child finds himself or herself.

It is very difficult to lay down anything that looks like rules about how you decide that because, as has been said already, the variation in family situations across the board is very large indeed. In some cases, it would be quite wrong for the father to have contact with the children for reasons that are sad and serious. On the other hand, there are sometimes occasions when it is thought to oust the father for no good reason at all. That also is serious. However, they are very different situations and anything that impinges on the importance of the paramountcy of the welfare of the individual child has a danger. Amendment 55, which would relegate this consideration to being one of the factors that has to be taken into account, strikes me as a reasonable way of handling the situation. Not many family judges or lay magistrates do not believe in the importance of the relationship between the parents in both cases, if possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I was simply making the fundamental point that adherence to the paramountcy of the welfare of the child is the principle that should rule in all cases without exception.

I understand the problem to which this clause is directed, and I shall not repeat what has been said about where it came from and so on. There is a possibility that Members of Parliament get a slightly distorted picture of what goes on in the courts, because the people they see at their surgeries are generally not those who have won. People do not normally come along to say how well they have got on. I have never been a Member of Parliament myself, so noble Lords will understand that I am only speculating, but that is a possibility.

I believe that all judges—family judges, magistrates and so on—recognise the importance of trying to preserve the relationship between a child and both parents. I entirely agree that that should be affirmed but what I find very dangerous—and they appear in more than one amendment—are the words “unless the contrary is shown”. One can see immediately what might happen. Let us say that the wife decides that she wants to have the child. She concentrates on proving that the father is not fit or that he has done something, unless the contrary is proved. That puts a focus on what are often the most difficult issues.

I suggest that the important factor is the relationship between both parents, as expressed in the clause, and that should be one of the factors that have to be taken into account in considering the welfare of the child. It is obviously important that the relationship with both parents should be preserved if possible. A factor in the checklist that includes that would obviate a great deal of the difficulty that this kind of clause could produce in putting a focus on one party trying to show that the other party is not suitable for some reason or other. It would be much better for the judge or magistrates, in approaching the matter, to take account of the fact that it is very much in the interests of the child and of the paramountcy of the child’s welfare that both parents take an interest and be involved. Precisely how that is done can be looked at as part of the general picture, but it strikes me that focusing on this as a separate matter is very likely to make matters worse rather than better.

It is some time since I had experience of the working of the courts but I used to, and much of what I learnt then remains with me and was part of what I had in mind when the Children Act 1989 was formulated. It is also fair to say that the criteria set out in that Act have proved to be a considerable international instrument in developing justice for children. Therefore, I have a very strong affiliation to what was in that Act and I am not keen to see it much changed. So long as the change is an improvement, I welcome it, but one has to be careful that one does not distort the principle while making improvements.

[Baroness Meacher]

The noble and learned Lord referred to the clause possibly generating parental attempts to downgrade the other parent. Does he agree that that is absolutely the norm at present? That is what parents do and women are particularly good at it. They really go for the father and try to discredit him. I suggest that we already have that in spades.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

It is the job of the judge to do his or her best to lower that. As I say, it is some time since I had experience of dealing with this issue but I have had that experience. However, it is counterproductive to do the opposite and to make important, and put up as a presumption which may be rebutted, something which is absolutely at the heart of the difficulty between the parents. As the noble Baroness says, this situation often arises. I feel that a judge would be better able to keep the situation under control if he or she did not have to focus on whether or not the contrary was proved. The judge would just have to take account of the nature of the relationships and make sure that they were properly taken into account when addressing the major question of principle.

[Lord Northbourne]

I seek guidance on one small issue. It is probably very stupid of me not to know about this but I am sure legal colleagues will be able to help me. Can the arrangement be changed? For instance, a little boy of two would be better placed with his mother but, by the time he is 12, his father may well become a much more important part of his life.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

If that is addressed to me, the answer is certainly yes. I have a distinct recollection of a case in which the mother left the family at a very early stage and the father and his mother had to look after the child. After a while, the child’s mother decided to come back. She had had a relationship which soured after a year or two and she thought that she would come back. You have to take account of the existing situation and the paramountcy of the welfare of the child, which may alter over time and need to be reviewed from time to time. There is plenty of machinery to do that, although, as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said, one’s time may be consumed by other things. However, so long as you can get a review, that can be dealt with.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, this has been an extremely important and high-quality debate. I am not a lawyer but I have spent three and a half years at the MoJ. Therefore, when the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that she had the greatest possible respect for my opinion, I am aware that the term “greatest possible respect” is reserved for the most insulting comment that a lawyer is about to deliver to an opponent.

I was interested in the joust between the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. When I was first given this ministerial responsibility, I had speaking engagements in Birmingham and Putney that arose within a few days of each other. I experienced some of the doubts that have been expressed in today’s debate about the road we were going down. What interested me was that at both meetings two social workers in the audience said quite unprompted exactly the same thing to me. They said, “Don’t underestimate the willingness of women to use their children in these battles”. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, pointed out that in the 25 years since the original legislation was passed there has been a change in what she described as family dynamics. We are trying to deal with the situation and get the wording right.

Even in this debate there are things that take us down cul-de-sacs. We are not following the Australian model; in fact we have learnt from it. Our proposal does not require the court to balance these two factors—I will come back to this. There is no idea of 50/50 parenting. One of the problems when this was debated down at the other end was that the press coverage was very much in terms of this being a major step change. I welcome the approach of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, in her opening remarks. The paramountcy of the welfare of the child is still there in this legislation.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, from her vast experience, claims that the way it is worded produces a contradiction. Let me try to explain our approach to see whether we can convince her, but I suspect that we will be coming back to this issue on Report. It is not possible for the presumption to clash with the paramountcy principle. The paramountcy principle is not a rebuttable presumption. The child’s welfare must be the court’s paramount consideration. If the court does not believe that the child’s welfare is served by the involvement of a parent, it will not order any such involvement, and the clause does not require it to do so. We are not saying that the court must make an order that involves both parents, nor are we seeking to define the nature of the involvement which the court may order. We are certainly not making any assumption about how the child’s time may be divided. That is not what the clause is about.

The Explanatory Notes set out clearly how the clause operates. We have included a process chart as well as an example situation to demonstrate how we would expect the presumption to work in practice. In addition, I have provided further information on the clause, which sets out in detail how the clause will work in practice, and it addresses the concerns that have been raised. We will also ensure that clear and accessible information is available for parents about the range of changes we are making. This will help to address wider concerns about the risk that the clause may be misunderstood. We have deliberately avoided defining the nature of involvement, which the court may order. The presumption stands if any form of involvement can take place without risk of harm to the child and would further the child’s welfare. We have used the word “involvement” as the simplest, most neutral approach to express the full spectrum of ways in which a child can have a relationship with a parent. We believe that the introduction of a presumption in legislation is the best and clearest way to ensure that children are able to benefit from the involvement of both parents following family separation.

This clause is part of the consistent messaging that will be conveyed throughout the dispute resolution process about the valuable role that both parents can play in their child’s life, whether they are together or apart. The deliberate reference to a presumption sends a strong signal to both parents and others as to how the court makes its decision. It makes clear that it is the norm rather than the exception for both parents to be involved in the child’s life. On the points raised, I think that I have already referred to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, about whether it was 50/50. The wording in the clause does not suggest or imply in any way equal or substantial shared time. The Explanatory Notes make it clear that this is not the expectation.

As regards the central argument put by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, which I suspect we will continue to discuss on Report, we believe that there are no conflicting presumptions. The parental involvement presumption will always be rebutted in a situation in which the child’s welfare requires it, and the paramountcy principle is not rebuttable.