Children and Families Bill

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made a very powerful case and referred to the Joint Committee on Human Rights’ report on its inquiry into unaccompanied children. I want to underline that because we took evidence from people in Scotland with experience of the guardianship system there, and I was very impressed by what we were told. We have clear evidence there of how it can work and can support the kind of children whom we have been hearing from. I was not around when the noble Lord first raised this issue, and it is very sad that there has been this long delay. I hope that this House can now do something to rectify that situation.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I recall the noble Lord’s Private Member’s Bill, his previous amendment and so on. I read the Still at Risk report feeling almost sick. One of the things that makes me feel sick is that so often, apparently, we criminalise children for whom we should be caring because we fail to identify their situation. The point I want to make is not against guardianship; it is an extension of the argument. Those who are in a position to identify very early on that a child has been trafficked need training if they are to be alert to the situation. There is a need for additional awareness and training of all those who come into contact with children who have been trafficked. We are failing them when we fail to provide assistance from the people they perceive to be on their side.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, as a volunteer who has worked with vulnerable children and alongside those working with vulnerable young people. What a privilege it is to listen to the noble Lord, Lord McColl, who has been a sustained and passionate advocate for these trafficked children; to hear the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, the chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children; and to listen to my noble and learned friend, who is the chair of the human trafficking group and whose name escapes me, incredibly.

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[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, before the noble and learned Baroness responds, as I understand it her amendments are not seeking to change the content of such a meeting and in particular did not seek to take out the term “mediation” at line 41 on page 9 in the list of what information is to be provided. I understand what she says about not deterring people simply because of a title. Is it necessary to call these meetings anything other than family meetings, just for the purpose of getting people there to deal with the issues as they arise? It seems an unnecessary obstacle.

[Lord McNally]

That is the very interesting nature of this debate—whether removing the term will mean that it is not on the tin, so people will not be sure what they are letting themselves in for, or whether, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is suggesting, it being on the tin will deter people from opening the tin. As I said, we have commissioned research on this. We are only at Committee stage. I will make the outcome of that research available. There is no absolute certainty at this stage as to which of us is right about this.

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[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I want to intervene briefly to say two things. All this is about perception as against fact and we have to ask ourselves why we are dealing with this clause at all. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, will know very well that CAFCASS, when being pressed by fathers who were saying that the presumption was against them, carried out research which showed that there was no presumption either way.

Of course there are miscarriages of justice. We cannot deny that from time to time in all areas of the law there will be miscarriages of justice, for both women and men, but that is not to deny the overriding information and the principle. I am very concerned that if we lose the paramountcy of the welfare of the child, the confusion that will follow will lead to other perception issues.

The other perception issue is very clearly, as one or two noble Lords have intimated, what is in the press—and that is that the father, it is usually the father, will be able to gain shared parenting. What they mean by shared parenting is half and half. We know how damaging that would be to a child, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, when seen through the child’s eyes. If you talk to children and young people who are before the court, they want their parents to stay together—you have to work through all that—and then they want their lives disrupted as little as possible. They want to remain in the same school; they want to be able to see their friends at the weekend; they do not want to take a suitcase somewhere else every two weeks—although, I have to say, some children quite enjoy it. I have talked to kids who really enjoy having two places and adjust to it. However, many do not, and therefore it is important that the child’s wishes and feelings are taken firmly into consideration. I think the perception will be that fathers, in particular, can get a different agreement from the court, rather than the paramountcy of the welfare of the child being the main issue.

Several noble Lords have alluded to the Australian experience but we should take it extremely seriously. If this has been tried elsewhere and has gone seriously wrong, why should we do it here and create the same situation? We should remind ourselves that they had this legislation and that the research evidence showed that the number of cases where children’s time was divided increased substantially. The whole thing became dysfunctional to the point that in 2011 the Australian Government were forced to legislate again to prioritise the safety of children over the wishes of adults. I am quite sure that this Government, particularly the noble Lord, Lord McNally, would not wish to find that we were not prioritising children and had to change the legislation after damage had been done. So let us deal with the perceptions and base our legislation on fact.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the noble and learned Baroness says that the judges would cope with Section 1 of the 1989 Act being amended by this but I do not think we want to wait for a judicial review as to exactly what would be meant if the new words were inserted in Section 1. If they were inserted in the form that we have in Clause 11, we would have Section 1(1) saying that welfare shall be the court’s paramount consideration—if that is not a presumption, I am even more concerned about it; then Section 1(2) saying that in dealing with delay the court shall have regard to that general principle; and then proposed new subsection 2A referring to presumption unless the contrary is shown.

I have never practised in this area so maybe it does not matter, but I am very unclear as to how weighty the contrary needs to be. To put it in different terms, are we talking about the contrary shown on a balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt? The noble and learned Baroness has those words in her amendment, to which I and my noble friend Lady Walmsley, who is not in her place, have added our names. I do not think they would have the same difficulty when tied to having particular regard as they would to a presumption. I become more and more confused as to what Clause 11 means by a presumption unless the contrary is shown. A presumption is a presumption.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I rise with some trepidation to speak very briefly to Amendments 54 and 55. I welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who both recognise that there are times when fathers are locked out of contact with their children. I applaud the Government for recognising that the involvement of both parents in a child’s life, all things being equal, will further the child’s welfare. No one would question that the child’s welfare has been and must continue to be of paramount importance. There is no question about that, but there have been times when that has been lost and the feeling has been that as long as a child has a mother, perhaps that is okay. That is my concern. I fully recognise what my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said about the research. I am not suggesting here that there have been wholesale miscarriages of justice but every single miscarriage of justice in terms of parenting one’s own children is a personal tragedy and we therefore need to take these things extremely seriously.

This is being made worse in the modern world because fathers are often intimately involved in their child’s upbringing from birth. In my day it did not happen. Father was a long way away for quite a long time so the big bonding went on with mother, not with father. Often parents are genuinely sharing the parental role. At times a father will be the primary carer—I cannot remember fathers being primary carers in my day—or maybe a better parent than the mother. On occasions a mother may be neglectful, selfish and unloving. They may even emotionally abuse their child. Of course, all these things can apply to fathers, except that fathers, instead of emotionally abusing their child, will tend to hit out. That has been one of the big problems in decision-making on parenting, separation and childcare. As a former social worker, I can say that we found it quite easy to see a bump on someone’s head but found it very difficult to identify and to codify emotional abuse of children.