Children and Families Bill Debate
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Earl of Listowel
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Children and Families Bill
Earl of Listowel Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I thank the Minister for that clarification. I was coming to that point. The clarification I was seeking was: will there be just one review, the DWP review that the Deputy Prime Minister announced yesterday, or will there be a separate review within the Department for Education? I am grateful for the Minister’s clarification that it will be placed in the Library, but on an important issue such as this we need some assurance that there will be an opportunity for Parliament to debate the conclusions rather than just read them. Perhaps the Minister could clarify those points, which is what I was going to ask him to do anyway. I beg to move.
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the mover of this amendment but also to the Minister for this very good news. The noble Lord, Lord Freud, took great trouble during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill to consult the interested parties around foster care but I have a couple of questions for the Minister. What is the situation for families who are providing supported lodging for young people at university for whom they wish to keep a room open when they return? More generally, what is the position for families providing supported lodging for older young people who have left foster care but whom they still wish to support?
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I will intervene very briefly if I may. Whereas Part 1 of the Bill largely did not apply to Wales, Part 2 to a large extent does. I therefore ask the Minister, in the context of the new clauses being proposed, whether any review that he will be undertaking will be in co-operation with the National Assembly of Wales and the Government of Wales, which have responsibility for education and social care but not for some aspects of social security and housing benefit. I would be grateful if he could at least give an indication that he will take that on board.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I recall the noble Lord’s Private Member’s Bill, his previous amendment and so on. I read the Still at Risk report feeling almost sick. One of the things that makes me feel sick is that so often, apparently, we criminalise children for whom we should be caring because we fail to identify their situation. The point I want to make is not against guardianship; it is an extension of the argument. Those who are in a position to identify very early on that a child has been trafficked need training if they are to be alert to the situation. There is a need for additional awareness and training of all those who come into contact with children who have been trafficked. We are failing them when we fail to provide assistance from the people they perceive to be on their side.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, as a volunteer who has worked with vulnerable children and alongside those working with vulnerable young people. What a privilege it is to listen to the noble Lord, Lord McColl, who has been a sustained and passionate advocate for these trafficked children; to hear the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, the chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children; and to listen to my noble and learned friend, who is the chair of the human trafficking group and whose name escapes me, incredibly.
The Earl of Listowel
I re-emphasise the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that there needs to be training for people working with these vulnerable young people. I am very taken with the notion that there should be volunteer advocates working with them but as a volunteer myself, who has had experience of both very poor support and supervision and very good support and supervision, I suggest that the regulations should be very clear about what sort of supervision, training and support these advocates should receive. That is only fair to volunteers and it will make them much more effective as advocates and supporters of these young people. There is a great dearth of resource in children’s services at the moment and the danger is, if regulations are not clear about what the minimum requirements are, there may be a drive to produce the lowest-cost and lowest-quality advocates for these young people. I had only that comment to make. I very much support the amendment.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. Anything we can do to make young people feel worthy is important. Many of these young people are suffering, through no fault of their own, and I wholly support any attempt to make them understand that there are people who care about their well-being, that there is a place to go and that there is some sort of support for them. I hope the Minister will consider these amendments very carefully.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I want to ask a brief question of the Minister, related to this matter. My noble friend alluded to the terrible case of Victoria Climbié, in which Victoria was privately fostered. The noble Lord, Lord Laming, who was charged by the Government to publish an inquiry into her death, was very concerned about a lack of awareness of private fostering—about how we can register private fosterers and make it safer for children to be in that position of being cared for by an auntie and uncle, while not being registered as a child in care.
There has been work in the past 10 years to normalise private fostering and raise awareness about it. I know that the British Association for Adoption and Fostering has done work to raise awareness among private foster carers so that they should come forward and, I believe, give their names to be registered by the local authority. I would be grateful to know from the Minister what progress has been made in recent years in terms of the numbers of those private fostering carers coming forward. Perhaps he could write to me, along with any other information that he can send me on what is being done to reassure us about the safety of children in private fostered arrangements. I hope that is helpful.
The Countess of Mar (CB)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Howarth of Breckland. For many years, I was a lay member of the immigration tribunal and I remember seeing a number of young people go through the awful process of asylum appeals when they got to the age of 18. They did not understand what was going on. In many cases, we allowed them because they had been here for so long and had become used to the country. It would have helped them enormously if they had had support earlier in their lives, as my noble friend is suggesting.
The Earl of Listowel
I rise briefly to support these amendments and to make three points. First, above all, children who have experienced trauma—indeed, all children—need parents who stick with them through their lives. Children who have experienced abuse over periods of time need carers who stick with them over the years and who are reliable and consistent.
Last night, I was at a meeting and met psychiatrists from all over the world who have just published a book on the mental health of looked-after children. The final point in the editor’s chapter in the book was that he encouraged all clinicians always to remember that the most important thing to help these children recover from past trauma is to enable them to have relationships with people who care about them and stick with them. Family relationships—long-term committed relationships—are what they need. If they cannot find that at that particular time in their lives then, as a clinician, you need to equip them to be able to make and keep those kinds of relationships. It seems to me that that is much more likely to happen in these kinship care models than in foster care, although it often happens there too.
Secondly, good social care interventions can make a difference. The most popular intervention that foster carers talk to me about is support to understand how they manage the behaviour of their young people. All young people can, at different times in their lives, be difficult to manage, but young people who have been traumatised, abused or neglected will often display very difficult behaviours. In fact, in 2004 a report from the Office for National Statistics on the mental health of looked-after children highlighted that those in foster care had, I think, a 40% rate of mental disorder compared with, I think, a 5% rate in the general population. The rate for those in residential care was 70% or so. A very high percentage of those mental disorders are conduct disorders, things such as troubling behaviours from young people. Carers need support to understand and manage those behaviours, and they tell me they really appreciate it.
They also need to be connected with other carers with the same experience. When foster carers are helped to connect regularly with other foster carers in the same position and the same job, they value being part of a community of carers and being able to share experience and learn from it.
Finally, I take this opportunity to highlight the letter sent to me by the noble Lord, Lord Nash, regarding the recruitment and retention of child and family social workers. It is key to this area, to trafficked children and to children returning from care. In this brief debate, we have heard examples of poor and variable practice in child and family social work. I know that several noble Lords trained and practised as social workers. It is enormously encouraging that, in recent years, in the previous Government and in this Government, there has been a real commitment to raising the professional status of child and family social work—to raising entry requirements and training standards. In his letter, among several other things, the Minister drew my attention to a review by Sir Martin Narey commissioned by the Government into the initial training of social workers, which is being published in January, and to new data-collecting on social workers on the front line in local authorities, so that we will have a better understanding of how well we are retaining the new social workers that we are recruiting. I draw that to your Lordships’ attention because I think it is important.
I also want to commend the Government for taking this consistent stance towards social work, which in the past has been far too neglected. One of the key ingredients for getting better outcomes for children, whether they are in kinship, foster or other settings, is to get support from the right professionals, and I hope we are moving in that direction now. I strongly support these amendments.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I wanted to speak briefly in support of these amendments. My noble friend Lady Massey has set out the framework and how important it is statistically, but I was sitting as a family magistrate only last week and I thought it might be interesting for the Committee to hear the decisions that we were invited to make as a court. The scenario was of a two year-old boy in a successful fostering arrangement. His uncle had come forward with his wife. They already had three children and they were willing to take on the boy. That would put them in the situation of having four children under the age of six in a two-bedroom flat in London. All parties supported the arrangement that was to be made by the court and the decisions that we were invited to make as a court were to finalise the financial arrangements between the local authority and the carers. There was a bit of brokering and toing and froing on what those payments were to be. As far as I know, they were discretionary but nevertheless they were offered. As I say, it was a bit of a haggle but a figure was agreed for the kinship arrangements to go ahead.
The second decision we were asked to make was whether to put in place a special guardianship order. This was opposed by the local authority but we decided to put it in place in any case, very much for the reasons that my noble friend has said. We believed that it would help the carers to have the support of the local authority for the first 12 months. That was no reflection on their ability to be good parents—in fact, we were sure they would be—but we wanted to help them. So we went against the local authority’s wishes on that particular decision. The other decision we made was to put in place the contact arrangements for the mother. The mother was a recovering drug addict. She was in court and we wished her well. We arranged that she would have contact on a yearly basis and that can be reviewed in due course.
Another issue that we were invited to address was the housing arrangements of this family. As I said, they would have four children in a two-bedroom flat. There was really very little we could do about that other than include a sympathetic paragraph in the judgment, urging local authorities to review their situation sympathetically. Realistically, they were looking at a two or three-year wait for a transfer. Nevertheless, that was something we put in the judgment. The final thing we put in, which we thought about very carefully, were the transfer arrangements. As I said, this particular little boy had been in a successful fostering arrangement where he had blossomed for two years and now he was moving to another arrangement. Obviously, however well-meaning everyone was, it would be a difficult transition arrangement for the boy.
The point that I wanted to make is that all the parties supported this. The local authorities put extra money in and the mother agreed to the arrangement, even though she was losing her boy and the kinship carers would have to take the child on. This is a good solution for all concerned, and if it can be put on a more statutorily substantial footing, I think that that will be to the benefit of all concerned.
The Earl of Listowel
I support my noble and learned friend’s amendment and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. Listening to the noble Baroness, I remember hearing recently a male acquaintance speaking passionately about his despair at not having access to his child. It seemed that his wife, a wealthy woman, had really done him down. He is poor and does not have the access to legal help that she has. Listening to men talk about this so often is very sad.
I will speak during the debate on the amendment of my noble friend Lord Northbourne about the issue of children having access to their fathers, which is desperately important. It is also important to remember that the evidence seemed very clear that while there is a perception that courts are finding favour more with women and that women are too effective at frustrating what the courts want, in practice this is not happening. I heard a presentation of the evidence a few months back but am ashamed to say that I cannot remember the presenter of the details. As my noble and learned friend has just said, the Justice Committee agrees with that. It seems that the Minister agrees too, so I would be grateful if he could help me by providing the information. I think this was a careful and thorough look at cases by an academic to check the perception that there was a bias towards women. In fact, the research showed, quite conclusively and clearly, that this was not the case. I would be grateful if the Minister’s expert advisors might help with that information. He can write to me with it. It is a perceived problem but it is not a real problem. What is true, however, is how tragic and difficult these issues so often are.
I very much regret that I cannot support the Government on this occasion. I examined a similar proposal to that in the Bill in great detail on a previous occasion. In doing so, I visited two contact centres and spoke to staff and parents there. I also spoke with professionals from the Anna Freud Centre who supported such families. My concern is that, at best, the Government may be raising expectations in parents which will only add to litigation and harm children as the conflict between their parents is prolonged. This is the point that my noble and learned friend made and it was also a concern that Norgrove had. In Norgrove’s family review, at first he was favourable to the idea of having some stipulation in the law that this should happen. Then he looked at what happened in Australia and became determinedly against going forward in this way. At worst, my fear is that the Government may be putting children more obviously at risk as courts are pressured to grant more contact to both parents.
By the time these cases come to court, there are often mental health or substance misuse issues within the family. What I heard from the contact centres and the professionals last time around was that, too often, a parent—and often this would be the father—was granted access to his child before he had addressed his alcohol misuse issues, for instance. Quite often the agreement would be that the father would have supervised access on two or three occasions, but that would be gone through in a quite perfunctory way and the father would have access. I should perhaps not name a gender here; the parent could be male or female.
Following this and before we legislated in this area—it was very helpful at the time—the courts inspectorate produced a damning report on child safeguarding in the private family courts, finding that court reporting officers were not communicating child protection concerns to the relevant authorities. If anything, back then the bias seemed to be too much in the other direction: courts were not taking enough care about granting contact between children and their parents.
Family courts are under great pressure financially. A large increase in litigants in person adds a further burden. It would be wisest to allow judges to make decisions about what they consider to be in the best interests of the child without the distraction that the Government’s proposal offers. I am strongly of the view taken by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Coram—a wonderful institution which produced the model for the children’s centres that have proved so successful—and my noble and learned friends that the Government should think again about this. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I want to intervene briefly to say two things. All this is about perception as against fact and we have to ask ourselves why we are dealing with this clause at all. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, will know very well that CAFCASS, when being pressed by fathers who were saying that the presumption was against them, carried out research which showed that there was no presumption either way.
Of course there are miscarriages of justice. We cannot deny that from time to time in all areas of the law there will be miscarriages of justice, for both women and men, but that is not to deny the overriding information and the principle. I am very concerned that if we lose the paramountcy of the welfare of the child, the confusion that will follow will lead to other perception issues.
The other perception issue is very clearly, as one or two noble Lords have intimated, what is in the press—and that is that the father, it is usually the father, will be able to gain shared parenting. What they mean by shared parenting is half and half. We know how damaging that would be to a child, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, when seen through the child’s eyes. If you talk to children and young people who are before the court, they want their parents to stay together—you have to work through all that—and then they want their lives disrupted as little as possible. They want to remain in the same school; they want to be able to see their friends at the weekend; they do not want to take a suitcase somewhere else every two weeks—although, I have to say, some children quite enjoy it. I have talked to kids who really enjoy having two places and adjust to it. However, many do not, and therefore it is important that the child’s wishes and feelings are taken firmly into consideration. I think the perception will be that fathers, in particular, can get a different agreement from the court, rather than the paramountcy of the welfare of the child being the main issue.
Several noble Lords have alluded to the Australian experience but we should take it extremely seriously. If this has been tried elsewhere and has gone seriously wrong, why should we do it here and create the same situation? We should remind ourselves that they had this legislation and that the research evidence showed that the number of cases where children’s time was divided increased substantially. The whole thing became dysfunctional to the point that in 2011 the Australian Government were forced to legislate again to prioritise the safety of children over the wishes of adults. I am quite sure that this Government, particularly the noble Lord, Lord McNally, would not wish to find that we were not prioritising children and had to change the legislation after damage had been done. So let us deal with the perceptions and base our legislation on fact.