Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Markham Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I want to add very quickly that we have got a problem here. If someone did take all this private data because we did not put this block on them, and they then had it, it would probably become their copyright and their stuff, which they could then sit on and block other people getting at. This amendment is fairly essential.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I am not going to try to better the excellent speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville.

We debated at much length in Committee the definition of the scientific interest, as it will dictate the breadth of the consent exemption for the data reused. If it is too broad, it could allow data companies—I am thinking specifically of AI programs—to justify data scraping without obtaining consent, should they successfully argue that it constitutes scientific research. However, should we create too narrow a definition, we could stifle commercial research and innovation. This would be disastrous for economic growth and the UK science and technology sector, which is one of our most dynamic sectors and has the potential to become one of the most profitable. We should be looking to support and grow, not hinder. Finding the happy medium here is no small feat, but the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, goes a long way towards achieving this by threading the needle.

By requiring the research to be in the public interest to qualify for the consent exemption for data reuse, we will prevent companies cloaking purely commercial activities for their own ends in the guise of scientific research, while allowing commercial research which will benefit the general public.

This particularly chimes with my time as Health Minister, when we tried to ensure that we could bring the public with us on the use of their health data. We did a lot of focus groups on all of this, and we found that we could have very widespread—70%-plus—public support if we could demonstrate that there really was a medical research benefit from all of this. This amendment is very much in keeping with that. As I say, it threads the needle. That is why we will be strongly supporting the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and we hope he is minded to put the matter to a Division.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, for his amendment and his engagement on this matter. I fully agree with the importance of ensuring that the term “scientific research” is not abused. Clause 67 will help avoid the misuse of the term by introducing a test of whether the research could reasonably be described as scientific. By explicitly requiring a reasonableness test, which is a well-known part of law, the provision is narrowing not broadening the current position.

Online Safety

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

My understanding of this is that the Online Safety Act applies to all small companies and nobody is exempt. The things that would not apply would be the specific things in category 1, or indeed in category 2A and 2B, which are to do with the ability to apply and monitor a service contract, and the ability to ensure that users can exempt themselves from seeing certain activities. Those would not apply, but everything else does apply, including all the force of the Act in terms of the application to illegal content and the priority harms that have been identified.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I must admit that, probably like many noble Lords, I had to do a bit of research into 8chan and the others as part of this. In fact, I got a bit worried that I might get into trouble doing it on House of Lords servers. What I saw was that, before 8chan, there was 2chan and then 4chan, and 8chan is now 8kun. It is like whack-a-mole: while we can try to do all the technical moves, it is very difficult. So, coming at it from the other end of the telescope, the user end, I think we have done a lot of good things about getting messaging out about anti-fraud and I wonder whether there are things we can learn from that, to educate and equip young people, teachers and parents so that they are aware, and attacking it from that end as well.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I hope the noble Lord does not get caught out from his search terms. Of course, he is absolutely right that part of this is about education and making people aware of what is there. I suspect that, as this gets introduced over the course of this year and enforcement starts, awareness will rise, and it will be incredibly important to include education as well.

Artificial Intelligence Opportunities Action Plan

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s Statement in this space, and I start with an apology. When I agreed to speak to this, I was told it would be first business after Questions, and I am afraid I have to leave for a flight midway through, so I apologise to noble Lords and hope that they understand. My colleague will be here all the way through.

As I say, we welcome the Statement and we welcome the Matt Clifford plan, which my noble friend Lord Camrose kicked off when he was leading these efforts in government, so we see this as a positive step forward. As Health Minister during that time, I saw first-hand the potential of AI, how it can really transform our services and how the UK really does have the potential for a leadership role.

Matt Clifford's plan, we believe, is right that the role of the Government in this is really to establish the foundations for growth: namely, making sure we have an AI-skilled workforce, the computing power, the energy needs to drive that computing power and the right regulatory framework. Then we use the assets we have, such as the data, to create the right datasets and use our public sector to help the rollout in many of them. I will focus my comments and questions on how we are going to make sure that those things happen.

Turning to the first one, the AI-skilled workforce, I must admit that when I read in the report that 5,000 AI jobs were being created in this, like most of us, I thought “5,000—that is great.” Then you realise that, actually, 4,500 of those are in construction and only 500 are in AI itself, and you start to get worried that maybe this is a bit style over substance. I am very keen to understand from the Minister here what we are specifically doing in this space. I am mindful, for instance, that we talk about having government develop training for the universities with a delivery or reporting date of autumn 2027. We all know how quickly AI is moving in this space, and we are saying we are just going to have the training in place for the universities to give these courses in two and a half years’ time. I think we all know that, in two and a half years’ time, the world will have moved on massively from that, and no doubt the training will be out of place. I hope the Minister can come back on that and give us some reassurances that we will actually have an accelerated process—I am afraid this will be a bit of a recurring theme.

On computing power, my noble friend Lord Camrose, when he was in government, had secured an £800 million commitment to build a supercomputer in Culham. Now I read, in the Government’s action plan, that they will

“start to develop the business case process”

for an AI computer. Unfortunately, like many noble Lords, I know what that means: a Treasury business case process, so you are talking about a year and a half to two years, at least. All I can guarantee is that, if you take that length of time to produce a business plan, whatever you were planning in terms of a supercomputer will be superseded by advancements and events. What is the Minister doing to streamline that business plan process and get action on this front so that we can get that new supercomputer fast?

On energy, we all accept there is a desperate need for energy; again, that is laid down in the action plan. The Government’s answer to that is to set up an AI energy quango. I think most of us would say that we need to set out what our energy needs require, but then surely it is up to the network or GB Energy to fulfil that. Why do we need another quango and another layer of bureaucracy? What powers is that quango going to have if it will not be commissioning these facilities, which I assume GB Energy will do?

On regulation and governance, the regulatory framework is another very important part of the foundation. I know the Government have plans for an AI Bill, but what is the timeline for it? Again—this is a recurrent theme—it needs to be quick so we can keep up with events.

Moving on to AI datasets, I know that this is something that the Minister is very keen on in the health space, as am I, being the former Health Minister responsible for this area. We have the best health data in the world; the beauty of having a National Health Service is that we have data on primary and secondary care going back to the Second World War. We have data coming in from the UK Biobank and other sources, such as retina scans from opticians which, we are hearing, can be used for stroke detection or maybe the early warning signs of dementia. There are fantastic opportunities for this, and we can already see its applications around the health service today. We have been doing the research with focus groups to bring the public with us on the use of their healthcare data. We have the potential to create the UK Silicon Valley in the life sciences on the back of the data that we have. We had in place a data for R&D programme, which was looking to utilise and create datasets in the health space. Could the Minister update us on where we are with that, and whether it is going to be his focus? As we discussed, that is something I would be very happy to work on together.

The last part of the foundations is to use the assets that we have in the public sector as a rollout plan for that and, again, health is a perfect place for this. We have seen brilliant applications already in cancer treatment and in overprescriptions; there are possibilities with the NHS app, which is really taking off, and to use AI in the 111 service to help triage; these are all fantastic opportunities. We put in place an NHS productivity plan which was very AI driven and AI heavy. Could the Minister update us on the AI productivity plan for the NHS and what progress we are making on it?

To conclude, we are very positive about the opportunities AI provides to transform the whole country’s economy and public services in ways that we cannot even imagine. However, it is businesses that need to drive this. It is the role of the Government to set the foundations to allow business to deliver; it is not the role of quangos, which are not going to deliver it. This area will need a Minister to drive it through and make it happen. Is the Minister the one who will do that? If he is, I give him all our support and wish him the best of luck with it.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome this plan, perhaps with rather less baggage than the Conservative Benches. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State invoked Babbage, Lovelace, Turing, the pioneering age of steam and even the white heat of the technological revolution, but at its core there is an important set of proposals with great potential. However, it is a wish list rather than a plan at present.

I particularly welcome the language in the plan around regulation, particularly where it refers to regulation assisting innovation, which is a change of tone. However, the plan and Statement raise many questions. In particular, how will the Government ensure that AI development mitigates risks beyond just safety to ensure responsible AI development and adoption, especially given the fact that a great deal of UK development will involve open-source applications?

On the question of the introduction of AI into the public sector, the Government are enormously enthusiastic. But, given their public sector digital transformation agenda, why are the Government watering down citizens’ rights in automated decision-making in the Data (Use and Access) Bill?

We welcome the recognition of the need to get the economic benefits for the UK from public sector data which may be used to develop AI models. What can the Minister tell us at this stage about what the national data library will look like? It is not clear that the Government yet know whether it will involve primary or secondary legislation or whatever. The plan and response also talk about “sovereign compute”, but what about sovereign cloud capability? The police cannot even find a supplier that guarantees its records will be stored in the UK.

While the focus on UK training is welcome, we must go beyond high-level skills. Not only are the tech companies calling out for technical skills, but AI is also shaping workplaces, services and lives. Will the Digital Inclusion Action Committee, chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, have a role in advising on this? Do the changes to funding and delivery expected for skills boot camps contribute to all of this?

On the question of energy requirements for the new data centres, will the new AI energy council be tasked with ensuring that they will have their own renewable energy sources? How will their location be decided, alongside that of the new AI growth centres?

The plan cannot be game-changing without public investment. It is about delivery, too, especially by the new sovereign data office; it cannot all be done with private sector investment. Where is the public money coming from, and over what timescale? An investment plan for compute is apparently to be married to the spending review; how does a 10-year timescale fit with this? I am very pleased that a clear role is identified for the Alan Turing Institute, but it is not yet clear what level of financial support it will get, alongside university research, exacompute capacity, and the British Business Bank in the spin-out/start-up pipeline support. What will the funding for the Compound Semiconductor Applications Catapult and the design and manufacturing ecosystem consist of?

The major negative in the plan for many of us, as the Minister already knows, is the failure to understand that our creative industries need to be able to derive benefits from their material used for training large language models. The plan ominously recommended reforming,

“the UK text and data mining regime so that it is at least as competitive as the EU”,

and the Government have stacked the cards in the consultation over this. We on these Benches and the creative industries will be fighting tooth and nail any new text and data mining exemption requiring opt-out.

Science and Technology: Economy

Lord Markham Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, for securing this important debate. We on this side feel fortunate to have the Minister in his new role. His previous role in this area is very relevant and we welcome him to his first debate. We are delighted to have someone with such knowledge in his position.

I hope to conduct my speech in the constructive manner proposed by the noble Viscount. We all know and recognise the incredible impact that science and technology has in this country. The 4% that it is estimated to add to the economy is a massive boost. We can all point to massive scientific successes. One of the biggest illustrations of this is that, of the 10 Formula 1 teams, six are based in the UK. You cannot get more cutting-edge science and technology than Formula 1. We have those that noble Lords will know—great British names such as McLaren, Williams and Aston Martin—but also other well-known brands such as Mercedes, Renault and Red Bull. Yes, those foreign brands’ Formula 1 teams are located in the UK because they know that we are the best and most cutting-edge.

I will take the limited time available to talk about the area I know best from my former health role: life sciences. We have some fantastic examples in this field too. Google’s AlphaFold project will see many breakthroughs. The Government’s involvement in Covid and the Minister’s involvement in the Moderna deal that followed are a good example of putting long-term relationships in place.

But what I have seen all too often at first hand is what I call the UK disease: we are very good at innovation but pretty poor at the rollout. I saw this particularly in medtech. The joke I always heard is that the NHS has more pilots than British Airways. Those pilots were good in their innovation but so often fell down when it came to rolling out across the network. We would often see them lost to the US, which would come in with the funding and the rollout programme, and we would see a brain drain of our expertise.

One of the last things we tried to do was introduce what we called a medtech rules-based pathway, which tried to provide a pathway so that there was a way that exciting parts of medical technology could be rolled out through the NHS under a set of well-known rules. We were consulting on that around the time we left government. I would be pleased if the Minister could update me on the findings—it would be super to have that by letter if he does not have them to hand.

Another area was the data for R&D. As we all know, AI is only as good as the data that it comes from. We are fortunate in the medical space to have probably the best data in the world, as I have been told by many people, dating back to 1948—primary care, secondary care and biobank data. We were working on a project to bring this all together to create the possibility of a Silicon Valley of life sciences. I would be delighted to hear where we are in the progress of that project.

I end on a note of caution. A £1 investment achieving a £3 to £4 return is a case of modern-day alchemy, but it requires deep pockets, long-term investment and hard work to achieve those rewards. Anything that diminishes those rewards will be a threat. My concerns about the latest Budget, dare I say, are the moves on tax increases. The crowding out of private finance that the OBR is concerned about puts this at risk, so I hope that we are careful and make sure that we do not kill the golden goose that we have in this space.

Specialised Research Units: Closures

Lord Markham Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

Universities have been under pressure, as the noble Lord knows, for a number of reasons, including student fees, overseas student numbers and questions about the full economic costs of research in addition to inflation. These are all important areas that will need to be looked at. It is worth remembering that, over the years, roughly one MRC unit per year has closed and a new one has started. This process is part of that continuing change, which I believe is important to make sure that we stay at the cutting edge. As part of that, the staff on the new wards will be fully paid. The principal investigator salary is the one that will have to be picked up in part by a host institution or by other grants coming in to provide support.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Given the well-known fact that every £1 of government investment generates a return of £3 to £4 to the UK economy, does the Minister agree that any move to reduce government R&D spend or to close specialist research centres would be an act of economic self-harm, in direct contradiction to the Government’s claim to prioritise economic growth?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be unsurprised that I am a strong supporter of R&D funding and know the importance of its links to economic growth. It is crucial that we look at the spread of R&D funding. It is the case that it will be necessary, from time to time, to shut some things and open new things—that has always been the case—otherwise things become ossified and you never end up with new programmes. I fully expect there to be a continued pattern of renewed support for some areas and a closing down of others. What is important in the context of this particular scheme is that the same proportion of MRC funding will be spent on these new centres as was spent on the old units and centres.

Horizon Europe

Lord Markham Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The noble Lord is quite right that the numbers are looking more promising for 2024, particularly in the European Research Council mono-beneficiary schemes. In the collaborative and industry schemes, things still look fairly flat, although there are some examples of very good progress. In the European rail project, 61% in the most recent round had a UK participant and five out of the seven successful bids had UK participants, so there is some progress. We are doing a number of things: there is an increased communications campaign, the last one having led to a substantial increase of 64,000 hits on the UK Horizon website; there are roadshows, most recently in Birmingham and Glasgow and soon in Northern Ireland and Wales; there are pump priming grants, which have led to an ability to get money to work out how to make applications to Horizon programmes—I am pleased to say that of those people who received those grants and put in applications, 100% were eligible. Finally, European network programmes are being set up to link UK academic teams and industry to European teams in the most successful countries.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I also welcome the Minister to answering his first Question—I know what it feels like. Following on from the last question, obviously we want to maximise participation and I am pleased to hear that the roadshow that we introduced is continuing to be rolled out. Are there particular sectors that we need to focus on in the outreach? I hear that the SME sector is particularly underrepresented.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. He is right that the SME sector is underrepresented, and there is a specific effort to increase its ability to engage and to raise awareness within it. We hope that will be a major part of the European networking programme as well.