(3 weeks, 3 days ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Winston
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Medical Research Council’s plans to close certain specialised research units; and of the implications of those plans for affected scientists.
The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)
The Medical Research Council is changing how it supports research across its units and centres following a review of its funding models. The new MRC centres of research excellence model will improve how we bring together the best science, skills and leadership to focus on key challenges in medical research. All existing units can apply for funding through this new model, or transition to other models of MRC grant funding.
Lord Winston (Lab)
I am very grateful to the Minister for answering my Question and I am pleased to hear that he supports the notion of these specialised units. Does he agree, too, that these units are particularly important in the study of relatively uncommon diseases, often with a very high profile, and are extremely unique? They all have an international reputation and have produced a number of Nobel Prize winners. Is it not possible that the current review, having received successful grant money from the MRC, might destabilise these units, and we would end up losing scientists who may be forced to go to other places? Does he feel there is something we can do about that?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
The noble Lord makes a very important point. In the transition to this new model, all the existing units will be able to apply to the new model and there will be transition arrangements for those staff who do not become part of the new model and return to funding from the host institution or through grant funding. He is right that there will be specific centres with some role in global resilience, or another bespoke reason to keep them going, that will be looked at as special cases as part of this process.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as professor emeritus of the University of Dundee and its previous chancellor. The MRC unit in Dundee on protein phosphorylation and ubiquitylation has spawned many other sub-sections in cell signalling. I know the Minister is aware of the number of drug molecules developed using reversible phosphorylation. One of the aspects of the new system will be that it will limit the number of postgraduate trainees. I was always amazed how many postgraduates were graduating with a doctorate—20 to 30 at any one time. The new system will limit the ability to recruit that number of PhD students. That will be damaging to the reputation of the unit and our global recognition. Does he agree?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
The noble Lord knows that I know that unit extremely well. It is a very important unit globally and it was given an award of £30 million recently. The new model will allow for a longer period of funding—seven years plus seven years’ funding, so a total of 14 years—with a different process of evaluation, which is a lighter-touch, less bureaucratic process. There is no reason why there cannot be a similar number of trainees going through the new system.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of a university governing council. To some extent the Minister’s responses are reassuring, but is this part of a wider trend towards centralising decisions on research funding through UKRI? Are we moving towards a situation where the Government will fund research only within particular sectors set out in their industrial strategy? If that is the case, will that not stifle new research talent and innovation?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
As the noble Lord may be aware, I have been very clear about the need for supporting basic curiosity-driven, investigator-led research, and I will remain resolute in that determination. Some of these new centres have specified areas, such as mental health and multi-morbidity, but there is a whole round which is unspecified, allowing for people to put forward ideas of their own for units of the future, which I believe will be important for the very reason the noble Lord says.
Lord Kakkar (CB)
My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to my registered interests. The funding base to support science in some of our leading universities, including those that may host these centres in the future, has become dependent on cross-subsidy from overseas student income. Is the Minister content that, with the obligation for universities to play a greater role in supporting those centres that receive MRC status, the funding base for scientific research in our universities is sufficiently secure to make that possible?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
Universities have been under pressure, as the noble Lord knows, for a number of reasons, including student fees, overseas student numbers and questions about the full economic costs of research in addition to inflation. These are all important areas that will need to be looked at. It is worth remembering that, over the years, roughly one MRC unit per year has closed and a new one has started. This process is part of that continuing change, which I believe is important to make sure that we stay at the cutting edge. As part of that, the staff on the new wards will be fully paid. The principal investigator salary is the one that will have to be picked up in part by a host institution or by other grants coming in to provide support.
Lord Markham (Con)
Given the well-known fact that every £1 of government investment generates a return of £3 to £4 to the UK economy, does the Minister agree that any move to reduce government R&D spend or to close specialist research centres would be an act of economic self-harm, in direct contradiction to the Government’s claim to prioritise economic growth?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
The noble Lord will be unsurprised that I am a strong supporter of R&D funding and know the importance of its links to economic growth. It is crucial that we look at the spread of R&D funding. It is the case that it will be necessary, from time to time, to shut some things and open new things—that has always been the case—otherwise things become ossified and you never end up with new programmes. I fully expect there to be a continued pattern of renewed support for some areas and a closing down of others. What is important in the context of this particular scheme is that the same proportion of MRC funding will be spent on these new centres as was spent on the old units and centres.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that there has been both veiled and explicit criticism of the way in which UKRI conducts its work, particularly work of a bureaucratic nature. Will the Minister tell your Lordships’ House what conversations are being had between UKRI and his department, and indeed himself, to clear up those issues?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
I will speak about these particular schemes first. These are seven years plus seven, with one review at the beginning and one review at six years. The whole idea is to reduce bureaucracy and make this simpler. UKRI is undergoing a full review of all its activities, with the aim to reduce bureaucracy, following the Grant review. I have discussed this with the CEO of UKRI and will keep a very close eye on it. I believe it is important that scientists get as much time as they can to do science.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in the new set-up, the role of the charity sector, particularly the medical research charities and the support that they give for what are often MRC-funded or underpinned research projects, will be key going forward? Is he sure that we have the right kind of environment and that the ecosystem is working well enough to support this charity contribution?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
As my noble friend says, the charity sector has been incredibly important for medical research in the UK, ranging from large charities such as the Wellcome Trust through to smaller ones. This new scheme will allow centres to have funded technical and other support, which are the things that need great constancy, and will allow the principal investigators to seek research funding from others, including the charitable sector. The charitable sector will remain an incredibly important part of our system for funding scientific research in the UK.
Lord Harlech (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a serving Army reservist. With all departments facing intense budgetary pressure, can the Minister give any assurances about safeguarding budgets for military research and development and, in particular, the Minerva project?
Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)
I am obviously unable to comment on the upcoming Budget, but I recognise the importance of military spending and of the DSTL within that. I will continue to be a strong advocate for the need for that as part of a successful resilience and defence strategy.