Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Lucas
My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy for this amendment. However, most of us, as the noble Lord indicated, will tend not to look at the CAA website when we are booking a plane ticket and will instead look at the individual airline or—as I did foolishly, and have recorded in my blog—at a site called fly.co.uk, which invents all sorts of other hidden surcharges of its own. It is an area that is bedevilled by surprises that are intended to get you when you have already committed and just want to get on with the business of getting your ticket. I would certainly appreciate anything the Government can do to make this area less dangerous for the likes of me.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I note that in the preamble to subsection (1), it says that the CAA,
“must publish, or arrange for the publication”.
There is no reason why it should not arrange for the publication of these figures by the airlines themselves, as part of the contract that it has with the airlines. I do not fly myself as I have been banned from flying—not because I drink too much or anything like that but for medical reasons—but I am very conscious of the amount of publicity that is given and the number of complaints there are about the lack of clarity and transparency over airline fares. This is a very valuable amendment.
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Lucas
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is being optimistic in thinking that she will achieve what she sets out to achieve in her amendment. Governments usually have their heads well sunk into the sand by the time legislation gets this far, particularly with the Daily Mail behind it. However, I hope she achieves success in making sure that this business is properly regulated.
As the noble Baroness said, the real problem was that motorists were being subjected to rogue clampers and treated in completely unacceptable ways. That situation might have been dealt with in other ways but it is now being dealt with in this way. There is nothing that I can see in the Bill at the moment that will save motorists from being done in by rogue ticketers. Indeed, the clampers will not have to change their tactics much because in Clause 54 there is a provision for movable barriers. All they will need is a gate across the entrance to a car park and they will have effectively immobilised a car and put it in exactly the same position as if there was a clamp on it.
There are also individual barriers on individual parking places—those little posts that have a key turned in the top—and so individual parking spaces may, under the provisions of Clause 54, continue to be subject to the kind of practice the Bill objects to—that is, the immobilisation of a car, subject to a stiff penalty, without any regard to the needs of the occupant, or of a blue badge holder and so on.
Not only is the Bill deficient in that it allows a slight change of tactics to continue the practices objected to but it opens the business of ticketing to a whole range of untrustworthy organisations. It does not take much to find someone who will sell you a book of 20 parking tickets. You then go and slap them on any car you like and if the motorist pays up you get a cheque back—very nice. This can be done under the guise of protecting your own property—which you might be—or you might do it randomly. There is no proper control over this.
The people doing this are, as the noble Baroness said, being given access to the DVLA database; they are entitled to know whose car it is. If the police are occasionally corruptible, what do we think of these people? If you want to know whose car is parked somewhere, you make sure that you make friends with the person who gives you the ticket that you stick on the car and they will drop you the name and address as if it was public property. We have to make sure that there are tight regulations under the Bill for anyone engaged in ticketing, and also on those who are allowed to continue operating fixed barrier car parks, whether of the conventional kind such as you might find under the National Theatre or others where you drop in coins as you exit. There needs to be proper regulation of those people to make sure that we do not get the cowboys back in another guise.
I believe that the Government intend to license the British Parking Association—it is a totally reputable body and I am quite happy that it should be in charge of the scheme—but any organisation such as that will find it difficult to discipline its members unless the Government insist that the scheme has teeth and take a supervisory role so that if they start falling down on the job they can be brought to book. The Government cannot dodge their responsibilities by saying that tickets are okay. Tickets can end up in large bills for people. If those sending out the tickets choose to employ bailiffs who are not shy of employing all the tricks of the trade, people can end up with bills approaching a couple of thousand quid—not legally, but none the less they do. Why should motorists be subject to that kind of harassment just because of a badly drafted Bill?
We need to sort out the business and to make sure that anyone benefiting from the structures in the Bill is reputable; that it is easy to obtain redress when things have gone wrong and that it is cost-free to obtain that redress. This Bill does not do that yet. I hope the noble Baroness will receive support from her Front Bench in pushing for changes, even if she cannot get all that she asks for.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, unlike the noble Baroness, I start from the point of view that clamping must be stopped. I have concerns about some aspects of the Bill, including the role of the accredited trade association. In practice, as the noble Lord said, there is only one and, although it may be a perfectly reputable organisation, not all of its members live up to the expectations that one has of them. As has been said, it is very difficult to police a members’ organisation. There needs to be a further effort, via legislation, to raise standards in the industry and there need to be mechanisms that ensure standards are raised, such as a guaranteed right of appeal.
The code of conduct must include a provision on clear bay markings, lighting and adequate size of parking bays. There have been too many cases of people being fined exorbitant amounts of money because one wheel of their car protrudes into the neighbouring parking bay. Irritating as that may be to you and I when we go to the supermarket and it is the last available parking bay, it is nevertheless the case that at night in a dark car park, when the markings have long ago rubbed off, that can be—and is— exploited. There is plenty of evidence of that.
Penalty charges and tickets should be levied only by companies that adhere to the code of conduct, to which I have referred, and the charges must be reasonable. A good benchmark would be the charges levied by local authorities. They vary of course from area to area, but the joy of that as a measure is that it takes account of the local market in parking provision and enables variation from one part of the country to another. It gives a reasonable comparison.
I should like to ask the Minister about the experience in Scotland. I understand that wheel clamping is illegal in Scotland: has there been the explosion in unfair and extortionate ticketing that the noble Baroness fears? I do not recall reading or hearing about that problem but it would be useful to hear about the experience in Scotland.
On Amendment 42, I want to raise a couple of practical issues relating to this. First, proposed new subsection (2A) refers to an offence not being committed,
“if … the vehicle is not registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act”.
As I understand it, that means that it would be legal to wheel clamp foreign vehicles. I wonder where that places us in terms of EU law and international law and whether it is possible to discriminate against foreign vehicles in that way. I am not for one minute suggesting that it is desirable to do so and I do not know whether the noble Baroness intended that outcome but, as far as I can see, included in those vehicles that are not registered would be foreign vehicles. That could cause a problem.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that lengthy and interesting explanation. I shall follow his example and read it carefully in Hansard. I would certainly like to be included in any delegation which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, may choose to lead to the ministry. It seems to me that a number of points still require to be cleared up.
As regards this business of having a right to move a car that is causing an obstruction, that is pretty useless if you are immediately done for scratching its paintwork. How are you going to prove that you have done no damage? You will have to start off with a complete photographic survey. Then you will presumably have to pay a couple of hundred quid for a velvet-lined lorry to lift the thing up. The kit that is needed to move a car without damaging it is not the sort of kit that most people have. It does not seem to be a piece of law that will ever be beneficial to someone who has had his driveway blocked, to a hospital where people cannot gain access to where the ambulances come in, or wherever else it might be. They will not have the kit to take effective action because there will be too few occasions when this happens and there will be no private operators to respond.
I remain concerned about proposed subsection (3) and I do not think that its implications have been thought through. All you need is a chain on the ground attached to a post, and you could come along, stretch it out across the gateway to the park and padlock the other end. It is enough to immobilise a car. Or you could set out posts around the park and loop the chain around them. As the provision is currently phrased, it is an invitation to bad behaviour, although I understand why it is there and I do not want to inconvenience the ordinary municipal car park that has an up-and-down barrier, which is a sensible arrangement. However, we have to have a more rogue-proof provision. I look forward very much to the meeting.
Earl Attlee
Perhaps I may quickly respond to my noble friend. As regards large establishments such as hospitals, I imagine that they would use an accredited car park operator. As to the example of a discrete chain that you could suddenly pull up after the motorist has left, I remind my noble friend that the landholder would have to have good signage, otherwise he could fall foul of the offence of immobilising the vehicle.
Lord Lucas
Lord Lucas
I shall speak also to Amendment 54. It seems to me that if we are to allow private operators the privilege of ticketing, we ought to expect the highest standards of them in both their propriety and their behaviour towards the motorist. We ought to look to them for the sort of regime that we wish that we could have with many local authorities who currently enforce ticketing. There seems to me no reason why we should import the standards of bad behaviour of, say, Camden, into the private sector, granting the private sector privileges on the basis of the bad precedents of the bad end of the local authorities.
Amendment 54 sets out some of the things that I think we should ensure that private operators granted that privilege should do. First, they should take steps to establish a current residential address of the keeper of the vehicle. That is one of the major causes of distress in local authority parking enforcement. They send tickets to old addresses or to people who previously owned the vehicle, and the first thing that the real registered keeper at his real address knows is when the bailiffs turn up, because the bailiffs actually take the trouble to check addresses before they send people round. It costs about 50p a time to gain their address. That ought to be a duty on private operators granted those privileges.
We must have a maximum. My noble friend has said that there will be a maximum; I am content with that. A feature of some of the rogues has been excessive maxima. We must make sure that the terms of the contract do not act as an unreasonable disincentive to appeal. My noble friend is working out an appeals procedure. He will be aware that there is a considerable disincentive built into the local authority system at the moment. You lose your discount if you appeal, and if you lose your appeal, you therefore pay double. That is absolutely as far as it should go. There has to be some disincentive, or people will just appeal anyway, but there has to be a limit on the disincentive.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I assume the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will respond. However, in view of the momentous news that the noble Earl gave us, perhaps we on these Benches may offer our sincere congratulations on what clearly was a memorable occasion.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, there can be no more romantic venue at which to meet one’s wife. I am very grateful for what my noble friend has said. To the extent that I have continuing questions, they will be swept up into the meeting already referred to. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Lucas
My Lords, I was thinking, as that speech went on, what it would have been like if we had been discussing, a couple of hundred years ago, the idea of opening up deep-mine coal in northern England. I think we would have been rather more aware of the dangers and that the dangers would have been rather more real. Houses do fall down coal-mines from time to time; the idea that they could fall down a hole made by fracking gas two miles deep is really not tenable. I am very sad to say this, as an ex-member of both Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace, but there is a typical, current environmentalist film around called “Gasland”, which, as far as I can establish, peddles nothing but lies, including that tap. If you drill a well through coal-seams you get gas out of it. That is not surprising, and methane is not exactly dangerous anyway. We are talking about a technology that, by and large, chucks household chemicals two miles deep. There is a chance of them coming back to the surface, but I am sure we will be careful about what we allow to be stuck down the wells.
I am someone who, although I do not have the pleasure of living in Lancashire, has lived in the Hampshire oilfields. Noble Lords may remember that in the 1980s there was a nice little mini-boom in wells all over mid-Hampshire, which we suffered happily without any great effect. There was a month when the drills were busy and then you were just left with a hut. That is really what happens with shale gas; you have a well every half kilometre or so and you are left with a garden shed that produces gas. It is not exactly an environmental problem, other than the interference when the drilling is going on. I think this is something that we will deal with extremely well within the boundaries of our ordinary and sensible systems for dealing with potential environmental hazards and for planning.
In fact, the Bill will make things better, because one of the problems with such developments in the past has been that they have benefited the oil company, they have benefited the Government and benefited the landowner who is lucky enough to have the well drilled on his patch, but the local community, which has put up with the noise, the transport during the drilling and the continuing risk of something going on with the well, gets nothing. Under the Bill, of course—under neighbourhood planning—the benefit will be shared and that will be a great step forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, if I understand my noble friend’s proposition, it is that the hydraulic fracturing of underground rock will be brought within the national infrastructure projects regime, the planning regime that deals with major projects. I think that is central to what my noble friend is moving. We have had a wider debate about the potential importance of shale gas, what that might mean and the risks associated with it. It seems to me that we need a broader regime that encompasses all those issues: licensing regimes, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, not only to deal with exploration, but with exploitation as well. If there is to be no national infrastructure projects approach to this, then planning, presumably, is a matter for local planning authorities and, indeed, neighbourhood planning. That does not seem to me to fit well with something that is potentially of huge national significance, with potentially huge risks and uncertainties attached to it.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said that this issue is worthy of a further debate. Perhaps when we have debated the NPPF to death we might turn our attention to it. I am a novice on this, but it is a fascinating and hugely important issue. I can remember when North Sea oil first opened up. It was a project on which I worked in my former life and I know some of the debate that went on around that. However, if I understand it correctly, my noble friend’s proposition about the environment within which the planning ought to be considered is a straightforward one, and he makes a good case.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 232AA. This calls for an independent review of the provisions of Part 5 of this Act; it calls for a report of this review, and it requires a copy of the report to be presented to both Houses of Parliament.
In particular, it requires the report to cover the effectiveness of sustainable development outcomes; the extent to which brownfield land has been developed; the extent to which green belt has been protected; whether affordable housing targets have been achieved; and data about planning approvals and rejections, et cetera. In short, it requires taking stock of how the new planning landscape is working in practice. It will no doubt be argued that there is going to be post-legislative scrutiny of this legislation in any event, but we consider the ramifications of this part of the Localism Bill to be of particular significance and that it should have this special focus. It requires this report within three years of entry into force, but this timescale is not sacrosanct for us.
If Ministers have confidence in their case, this should not present a difficulty. There can be no doubt that in recent months, since the publication of this Bill, and particularly since the publication of the draft NPPF, the profile of planning—and the purpose of planning—has been raised in our country and our communities. One would not normally expect to see headlines in the Telegraph dominated by planning matters; and we have in a way been startled spectators in unpleasant exchanges between the Planning Minister and no less a body than the National Trust.
Whatever the Government intended to be the outcome of these proposed changes to our planning system, there is no doubt that the way they have gone about it has caused chaos and added huge uncertainty in the planning system, of itself creating paralysis and holding back growth, the very thing they were supposedly designed to stimulate. The fears are that the Government were redefining the purpose of the planning system and refocusing on economic growth to the detriment of the broader requirements of sustainable development. There were plenty of signals to this effect: the presumption in favour of sustainable development; the denial hitherto of transitional provisions; the very wording of the NPPF, which contains no recognisable definition of sustainable development; the scrapping of “brownfield first”; and the inevitable uncertainty created by cramming 1,000 pages of regulation and guidance into 50, even accounting for the removal of overlaps and duplication. Alongside this was the introduction of the neighbourhood planning regime, to be supported by local planning authorities at a time of stretched resources; the duty to co-operate as a substitute for regional and sub-regional spatial strategies; and the operation of the new homes bonus as the supposed driver of new dwellings. Uncertainty abounds. We need a process for Parliament to be able to take stock of where this is all taking us. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
I hope we see annual reports. This is such an exciting, interesting and unexplored area that we are going into that we really need to know what is going on rather earlier than three years. However, I would measure things in a much happier vein than the list of grizzles in proposed subsection (2) in this amendment. It is going to make a great change and advance to people’s lives—and I would like to see that documented—as much as create possible pitfalls.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, at this time of night I am going to resist the temptation thrown at me by the Labour Lord opposite to discuss further the sustainable development in the NPPF—great sighs of relief opposite. I will therefore confine myself to the proposal that there should be a report on progress.
We agree that there should be a transparent system for monitoring and reporting. As with decentralising decision-making over housing and planning matters to councils and local communities, we expect them to report progress on all aspects of planning and to make this available to local communities to whom they are accountable. The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 already places a duty on councils to undertake a survey of matters affecting the development of their area, including—I promise I will not go back to sustainable development again—its physical, economic, social and environmental characteristics.
The council is already required to produce an annual monitoring report of local planning activity. Our proposals in the Bill and local planning regulations, on which we have recently consulted, will streamline the process for preparing these reports, reducing the burden on councils and strengthening public accountability. Local planning regulations will also require councils to report progress in relation to neighbourhood development plans and demonstrate how they have worked with others under the duty to co-operate.
My department will support councils in this process by continuing to produce official statistics that can contribute to the evidence base used by councils to develop their plans. With these reassurances, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Cormack
My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who talked about clarity and speed. I think that both the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Greaves, have performed a service by tabling these amendments. They are a prescription not for foot-dragging but for orderly progress, and it is essential to have that. Clarity, yes; speed, up to a point; but orderly progress is absolutely essential. There has to be a transitional period. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will accept that. Whether or not she accepts the amendments, it is incumbent on the Government to explain to us that there will be proper transition and that we are not plunged from one situation into another. The fact that so many authorities do not have plans gives us all cause for concern. There has to be proper time to put those plans together.
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, was right to indicate that this is not the easiest of times for local authorities. Many have laid off staff and have not replaced conservation officers and people who did a vital job. In my local authority of South Staffordshire, which had an admirable record on these matters, the absolutely first-class conservation officer took early retirement in the early part of last year and has not been replaced. The local authority is trying to replace the work that he did, but without him it is not easy. For every possible reason, therefore, I ask the Minister to let us have a period of orderly transition and progress, so that if we are trying to create a better situation, we do not confound our own efforts by over-haste. Once again, there is good sense in the motto that I have quoted in this House before: festina lente.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, in former times it was the custom of some generals after a victory to allow a limited period for rape and pillage before good order was restored. The thought has been raised in this House and outside that this is what the Government intend with this Bill. Along with my noble friend Lord Cormack, I find myself worried. I do not understand how this transition is to be managed: how we are to get from a position where there are not valid local plans in a large number of local authorities to the position where there are, without there being a succession of undesirable planning permissions given. The core of this Bill is to allow localities to determine what happens in their areas. It would be most unfortunate if we had a period where an awful lot of bad will was created by the exact opposite happening, just because some superior authority had failed to get the ducks in a row.
The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, I rise briefly first to declare an interest as a practising chartered surveyor and as someone who is involved with planning, although I am not a chartered town planner.
There seems to me to be three particular issues here. One of them, as has already been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is the corpus of knowledge that is currently involved in the planning system. If we uproot that, we will cause delay, doubt, risk and uncertainty. There are economic implications, so we must try to avoid that. We have seen some of the public pronouncements that are based on questions of doubt about what is intended here. A great deal of clarification is needed.
Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, referred to the effect on economic growth. Yes, planning is a huge driver of economic growth in so many ways. While I would not wish to suggest that it is the be-all and end-all of economic growth, it is clearly something that is tangible that the general public can relate to. We must not lose sight of the fact that it is going to be one of the significant factors, if for instance what we are told about the lack of completions on housing is true.
My last point is to do with neighbourhood plans. I must declare another interest here as the president of the National Association of Local Councils, whose member parish and town councils may be those very bodies that are having to draw up a neighbourhood plan. A neighbourhood plan has to be in conformity with the principal authority’s local plan, and if the principal authority’s local plan is not in place, or is in disarray or is out of date, then we have a problem. This has a knock-on effect. I ask the Minister to give the House some reassurance that there is going to be some sort of seamless transition that will take place. I do not wish to add to what has already been said about the timescale over which that is to be done; and there may be different timescales for different bits for all I know, but the transition does have to be, to some degree, seamless. With regard to my first point about the economics of doubt, it is very important that we get this right.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I had hoped to be here the other night when I thought that we would reach my noble friend’s amendment. I was sorry that I was not able to be present, but then the amendment was not reached. We have now reached it and I am per contra glad to be here to add my support for what my noble friend has proposed. However, I am very conscious that the word on the street is that everybody wants to see the back of this wretched Bill today, even though it is less wretched than it was before my noble friend started amending it, and I do not want to delay the House. Indeed, I may shortly put myself beyond temptation in order to avoid doing so later.
Meanwhile, the House is already aware that I think this Bill is misnamed. Certainly, as it started, it was not a Localism Bill but a centralism Bill because “localism” meant what the Secretary of State said that it meant, not what local authorities decided that it meant. This debate is essentially on that very point.
I do not pretend to wish to defend the detail of the amendment, any more than my noble friend did. However, its fundamental thrust is that, where satisfactory local arrangements to achieve the Government’s objective exist, the Government should not stamp on them and insist that they are replaced with a template—I repeat the word used by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—imposed from the centre. I cannot see any sense in that. It is the opposite of localism and common sense, and the Government need to look at it again.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I entirely support my noble friend’s amendment for two principal reasons. One is that local authorities can game the system anyway—all they do is get their councillors to get a group of 20 members round locally and kick off the process that is in the Bill. That will be an expensive and tiresome way of doing it and will result in councils being divided up on ward boundaries, which is not perhaps the right way of doing it because wards have been created for equality of size and electoral convenience rather than to encompass natural communities.
My other reason for supporting the amendment is that it is the best hope—despite all the other hopes that I shall express later in respect of my amendments—of getting the Bill to work in cities. As it stands, the Bill has very little to offer a city community. What a city wants, by and large, is the local application of the policies of its council rather than a hand in planning, where in a built-out environment there is very little to offer. Co-operation and working with the council to establish the area that is a neighbourhood will be a great deal easier if that comes from the council rather than a community that does not exist and has no momentum or reason to create itself. The whole process of creating neighbourhoods will happen much better in cities when guided by councils. If we consider not just relatively easy parts, such as Lavender Hill, but areas where communities are at loggerheads, how the system set out in the Bill will work when it will merely become a vehicle for neighbourhood power struggles rather than anything really creative, is beyond me. The department needs to get a grip on the question of cities, particularly inner-cities, and how we are to bring the benefits of the Bill to them.
My noble friend’s amendment seems to address this most constructively, and I hope that the department, even at this stage, will start to pay some attention to that. We all had a wake-up in our holidays and reappeared here when we suddenly discovered that communities in cities were not as strong as we might have liked to hope. This is the “Department for Communities” and it ought to be doing something, but it is not, I am sad to say.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I got more supportive of the amendment the longer the debate went on. I was almost there when the noble Lord, Lord True, had finished his introduction. Let me say, first, that a world in which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, is beyond temptation is not something that I wish to contemplate.
We accept entirely the thrust of the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord True. If you have robust engagement with communities that works and delivers, why tear that up and replace it with something else? However, there is a conundrum. What will the process be by which we say that not only is the existing process sufficient but we have to withdraw from parish councils the other opportunities that are provided in the Bill in respect of the creation of neighbourhood forums? One might read the proposition in the noble Lord’s amendment to say that that has to be decided between local authorities and the Secretary of State. Of course, that would leave out the voices of the community.
I agree with what the amendment is trying to achieve, but—perhaps the noble Lord has simply truncated his presentation and has thought this through—how you decide whether what is working locally is sufficient such that you will not apply those other provisions in the Bill is a question that needs to be answered. One could not disagree with the proposition that, if you have good engagement at the moment in a variety of different circumstances across the country—particularly important is the issue of urban communities, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said—that should be preserved. How you do it and how you switch off the other mechanisms is key.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I have an amendment which covers very much this area—Amendment 210AC—which I do not now have to speak to, I am delighted to say. I agree with everything that has been said. I will add just one rider to it. It seems to me that where a community has got itself together and has gone to the lengths of putting together a neighbourhood plan, dealing with the criticisms of it and then winning a referendum, that should count for something in the arguments with its local authority about whether it should be a parish. At the moment it does not, and I think that it should.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I cannot resist the temptation, so clearly I am going to have to go shortly. Meanwhile, I have been tempted. Perhaps I may ask a possibly elementary and perhaps even naïve question. How does all this relate to the fact that, in my understanding, and certainly in my neck of the woods, the concept of parish is basically an ecclesiastical one? Indeed I am slightly surprised to find that the Bishops’ Bench is empty during this debate. Is the parish essentially an ecclesiastical concept? Whether it is or is not, this clearly raises the possibility of parishes being extended in a rather curious way, by a proposition coming from an adjacent district—albeit requiring the consent of the parish council—which creates a parish council that then, by definition, extends into more than one parish. I find this very curious. If we are going down this path, which I do not object to in principle, at the very least we need some different terminology, because it would not be a parish council as normally understood in my kind of area.
My second point—noble Lords will be glad to hear that it is my last one—is that subsection (4) states that there must be a community governance review if there is a request for one, and that if there is a review, there must be a presumption that a new parish will be created. Why? Why cannot a review come to the conclusion that the world is all right as it is and that no change is needed? Whatever the merits of the intended fundamental thrust of this amendment, the amendment needs a lot of looking at.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I strongly support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville. I had the pleasure of taking a small deputation to see my noble friend the Minister a couple of weeks ago. It included the chief executive of the National Churches Trust as well as the chief executive of the Heritage Alliance. We discussed a range of issues as we also had a representative from the National Trust present. We had an extremely constructive and amicable meeting, for which I am very grateful to my noble friend. But I do not think that she could fail to have been impressed by the quiet passion expressed by those I took with me on that occasion. A very special concern was expressed by the chief executive of the Theatres Trust. My noble friend has just referred to that.
This is not just a semantic point. There is real substance in his argument and it is not sufficient for any Government or Minister to assert that environmental embraces cultural. Because of the demarcation to which my noble friend referred when he talked about the establishment of the Department of National Heritage, as it originally was, the Government have decided that there is a distinction, but it is not a distinction without a difference. When the Minister replies to this debate, I hope that she will at the very least promise to come back at Third Reading on this issue. I hope that it is not an issue on which we have to divide the House because these matters transcend all party and petty differences. We are concerned about establishing a new system that will be in place, I hope, for a long time. I trust that it will bring real benefit. But it will not bring the real benefit that we all desire unless there is sufficient recognition of the points made so succinctly and admirably by my noble friend. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us at least some comfort when she comes to reply.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, perhaps I may address my amendment in the group before we get too far into the speeches. I am addressing a rather different subject, which is to try to make sure that the wording in the Bill will encompass people who are part of the community because they volunteer in it and not because they work in it. I am thinking particularly of, say, a scout leader who has come into an area to create a new scout group. He may not be from the area but he will be an expert community organiser. In the process of this, he will have become someone who really knows and understands the community, and will be a valuable part of the forum. I very much hope that people like that will be included.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I hesitate to disagree with my noble friends on this subject but I would hope that the Minister will be careful before she automatically goes down the tempting line of adding cultural to the environment. The reason for that is very clear. First, I have to declare an interest: the division between the Department of the Environment and the Department for Culture was a huge mistake. But it was not made on the basis of a difference: it was made on the basis of personalities. It was set up in that way to provide particular jobs for particular people, which is why culture and sport were put together. As it was done by a Prime Minister whom I strongly supported, I do not think that people can complain about my point.
I do not think that the idea that there is an eternal justification for this distinction based on the division in government is acceptable. I understand the reason for it but it has some very dangerous aspects to it. Let me give a simple example. I have fought for a long time to protect the countryside in Suffolk—its environment and its beauty. Part of that is stopping the sea taking it away. One of the things that the previous Government did, which was wholly unacceptable, was to downgrade the nature of the heritage contribution to the environment by making the points that they scored when they came to discuss the issue of coastal defence. Without any discussion with the heritage lobby, they lowered the importance of heritage within the environment.
I cannot consider the environment without considering culture. I believe that “environment” is a word which covers our cultural heritage as much as it does—I am afraid I am going to insult people—woolly animals. One of the problems is that the environment is often talked about as if it is about woolly animals. It is not—it is about the whole ambience in which we live. To exclude culture from the environment, or to suggest that there is a distinction, seems to me to have very serious import. I would hope that a future Government would reunite the environment with culture. That is where it should be. It is much closer to that than, for example, the media, which seem to me to have only a tangential effect on it. Much of the media seems to me neither cultural nor environmental. I do not see that the media should therefore necessarily be in the same box. To be told that the future of legislation should be based on a mistaken decision in the past about divisions between Ministries seems to me to be a fault.
One of the problems the Government have got themselves into—I am sure my noble friend Lord Cormack will agree with this—is that some of the language that has been used in the context of planning has led people to believe that our commitment to our environment, be it the cultural environment or the natural environment, has been less than strong. I think that has subsequently been put right and has been remedied not only by my noble friend but by the Prime Minister and others. However, I beg my noble friend to be very careful about this. I know that the House wishes to move on, but I have stayed—I have not had temptation—for this amendment, because I think we have to stand firm on the statement that the environment is not just about the natural environment but that the urban environment, the cultural environment and the spiritual environment all fit in. If she gives way on this, I would argue that there ought to be amendments about the spiritual environment. We have had this before. If we are going to start dividing the environment up, I would find it unacceptable to leave the spiritual side of life out of the Bill. I am able to accept it because the word “environment” carries that meaning for me just as much as it implies the natural environment and the cultural environment.
I hope that the Government will take this very seriously and that those who lobby my noble friend Lady Hanham are told very clearly that if they have not managed to establish the idea that great poetry, plays, architecture and heritage are part of the environment, then they need to present their case more effectively.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, before I speak to our Amendment 226 in this group, I have a few general comments about the contributions of other noble Lords. Some compelling points have been made about the need to address this issue. I suspect, although it may not be the case, that this is largely a London issue because, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, it is particularly associated with very high land value. I can honestly say that I have not encountered it in Luton to date, but it may apply to other areas of the country. I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has clearly experienced it. We are interested in hearing the Minister’s view on whether the way forward is to deal with a combination of codes of practice, party wall legislation changes, and issues around insurance or bonds.
Our Amendment 226 would amend Amendment 225 from the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley, with its code of practice for subterranean development. It is simply to ensure that the importance of promoting good health and safety and minimising the risk of injury or ill health to workers and the public is part of any addressing of the issue. I was prompted to bring it forward by simply looking at the text of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, about the code of practice. He talks about “noise and vibration”, and,
“dust, dirt and the risk of an infestation of vermin”—
all things that one can imagine are an integral part of excavation. It is important that we focus on the safety of people working in that environment as well as the convenience of neighbours and the owners of the property itself.
Construction is still a pretty unsafe working environment. It has got a lot better over the last decade, although I do not have the very recent figures on fatalities and fatal accidents. Most concerns arise in small house-building and refurbishment projects, the sorts of projects that one would envisage being involved here. Although I am advised that no special codes or regulations need to be introduced to deal with this—the CDM regulations of 2007 and the guidance around them are sufficient—in considering all these matters we should have uppermost in our minds the safety of people who undertake what can be quite dangerous work. In so far as protecting the public is concerned, I was advised that on one occasion the development was subterranean to such an extent that the skip on the road outside went through the road. Obviously there were risks of injury to the public from that. That is the purpose of my amendment, which I hope is entirely non-contentious.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will find a way forward in this area. It seems so consonant with what we are doing in the Bill to give those who are polluted some comeback or control over those who pollute. That seems a good principle to push forward on.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I must say at the outset that it was only because I became a Minister that I stopped being on the planning committee of my borough, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where we dealt with an enormous number of subterranean developments. My patience ran out when we had one that went down three floors. When I asked why it had to go so far down, they said that the person who owned the house wanted a high diving board.
I am not at all unsympathetic to this particular discussion. After my noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lady Gardner came to see me originally with some representatives from Kensington and Chelsea, and Westminster, I thought carefully about what we would do here. The fact is that this Bill will not solve the problems. There are too many elements to this to help by legislation. There is legislation all over the place that governs this. I was concerned to see what could be done within the legislation that is there at the moment and whether codes of practice, guidance and all the elements could be brought together and given to local authorities to help them. For that reason, I asked my noble friend Lord Jenkin and the people who came to see me to agree to be a small working party to discuss with officials the ideas that they had for amending this, with the officials bringing together what can already be done. Could we, through some discussion and feeling our way, find a solution that did not require primary legislation, or has this been going on for so long that it is well beyond that? We want something quick that guides local authorities in what they can and cannot do.
The local authorities that have to deal with this are becoming quite adroit, but the effect on people who live roundabout is absolutely atrocious. I know of one person who complained that a basement extension was being dug up on either side of his house and opposite it, too. Once basements are developed you cannot see them and they are all gone, but it is during this development process, which can take anything up to two years, when the trouble starts.
I hope that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not bring back an amendment at Third Reading. We have an awful lot already and the Bill managers are becoming slightly anxious. I feel that we can resolve the problem more quickly than this. There are already endless Acts covering this. I am concerned that those Acts are not properly understood or implemented by local authorities. There are building and environmental regulations. Construction method statements are required. There are party wall implications, construction design and management regulations, the control of pollution Acts and the Party Wall etc. Act. As a result of the meeting that we had prior to this being brought up this time, we are already working with the Basement Information Centre to see about guidance on the construction of basements and how those could be developed to cover the issues we have raised. Defra is looking to prove an updated version of the British Standard so as to give it statutory force under the Control of Pollution Act. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors publishes guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said. I would accept, immediately with gratitude, his help with this. We already have a meeting tomorrow if the noble Lord is free, and we will take it into account.
The party wall issue is clearly another very major area, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has pointed out the difficulties with bringing this into more legislation when there may be ways of making it clearer and more acceptable by guidance. We and the department are going to review the guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act so that it reflects matters better. The Health and Safety Executive is developing guidance for builders, and all the issues which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has raised will come under health and safety; they must do. We do not underestimate the disturbance and distress that poorly executed work on subterranean developments can cause.
I want the small group that we have now, working with our officials, to go through what has been picked up on now, what the legislation is, what guidance is needed and where local authorities need to be given a better helping hand with a code of conduct, and to see whether we can do this without having to go to primary legislation again. I think we can probably do this, and I would like to be given the opportunity to try. I cannot complete this between now and Third Reading, so I am going to have to rely on the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, perhaps not moving this at Third Reading, but with my commitment to try to see this through. I fully and totally understand the concerns around this. I am not surprised that it has provoked discussion to get it into the Bill. By the time we have had a consultation on legislation, if it is possible to have that, we are going to be way off down the line.
I will personally take a lead in this to see what can be done, what guidance can be provided and what extra clout can be given, one way or another, either through the Party Wall etc. Act or by strengthening the guidance. I would like an opportunity to be able to do that, but having said that I am very grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, had to leave to chair another meeting, but his amendment was very much along the lines of the others moved in this debate.
I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments. I hope to see all those noble Lords reasonably frequently for the next weeks while we try to sort this out. I look forward to seeing the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, as part of that.
Lord Lucas
“38AA Additional rights of qualifying bodies
(1) A qualifying body may, in the course of the preparation of a neighbourhood development plan, enter into negotiations with landowners and others with a view to them concluding agreements with the local authority that, in the event of the neighbourhood plan being adopted and of specified other events, specified additional contributions will be made to the community by landowners or others.
(2) Qualifying bodies may, in conjunction with neighbourhood development plans, promote referendums on or proposals for parishing in order to present integrated proposals for the development of the community.”
Lord Lucas
There is not much to say in substance about this amendment because my noble friend’s answer to the first part is yes, and to the second part, “Hard luck, we blew that out of the water earlier because we no longer have local referendums”. However, I want to explore the implications behind this amendment because my noble friend was kind enough to write to me during the Recess. There are some interesting aspects of localism and I should like to have a clear understanding of the Government’s position.
My noble friend wrote to me as follows:
“Neighbourhood planning offers an exciting opportunity for local communities—through a parish council or neighbourhood forum—to initiate meaningful negotiations with landowners over how their land may be used in a way which benefits the landowner and the community alike. It is of course of fundamental importance that any agreements reached are transparent, that any developments coming forward are acceptable within the broad ‘basic conditions’ for neighbourhood planning, and that landowners are not ‘held to ransom’ or unreasonably prevented from developing their land in any way which is acceptable in broader planning terms. The parish council or neighbourhood forum will in developing their neighbourhood planning proposals consult with a range of stakeholders, including landowners. They may also talk to the landowner about whether their land is accessible and deliverable and what types of development the landowner may consider accommodating on their land. This is important to ensure that any proposals in a neighbourhood plan or order have the support of those organisations and individuals needed to ensure delivery during the plan period. In the case of a neighbourhood development order they may also discuss what conditions may need to be built into the order, or whether there are any matters that will need to be provided for via a related planning agreement (for example the provision of services or infrastructure), to make development acceptable when considered against the basic conditions for neighbourhood planning. The responsibility for confirming what conditions or planning agreements are necessary to make the proposed development acceptable will sit with the local planning authority and the independent examiner. If a neighbourhood development order gave permission for a modest housing development, but required that to be accompanied by such extensive community benefits that the overall development would be rendered financially unviable, then the landowner would remain at liberty to apply to the local planning authority for planning permission for a less expensive scheme, in the normal way. Planning obligations need to meet strict legal tests if they are to be relevant considerations. These are set out in regulations, case law and guidance. These provide that a planning obligation may only constitute a reason for granting planning permission for the development if the obligation is necessary, directly related to the development and fairly and reasonably related in scale and kind to the development. If a planning obligation does not satisfy these tests it will not be a material consideration. Whatever negotiations and agreements do take place, it is important to note that what land is allocated in a plan or given planning permission in an order should never simply be a matter of which landowner can be persuaded to share the biggest proportion of any land value uplift with the community. It has to be about enabling any developments which the community support and which are acceptable when considered against the basic conditions”.
That is a very fair summary of the position as is. But, of course, this is localism. In a parish, words such as “fair” and, indeed, “sustainability” have altered meanings. The parish might, for instance, choose to talk to all landowners and ask them to put forward proposals for the way in which they might like to see development on their land, and for ways of mitigating any adverse effects on the neighbourhood that they perceive. The parish will then publish all proposals and invite comments from the public, which will be passed on to the landowners. The parish will then invite landowners to submit modified proposals in the light of comments, together with binding commitments to the mitigations that they have themselves—the landowners—proposed. The parish will then publish all proposals and invite the public to rank them. The most popular of the proposals will then go forward as a draft neighbourhood plan.
That is as fair as fair can be. There are no obligations on the landowners that they have not proposed themselves. All factors will be taken into consideration in the process of the parish ranking which ones they like best. I am sure that in most parishes the process will result in a large slice of the landowner’s planning gain ending up with the parish community. That is what I hope we are going to see as a result of the Bill. I hope that my noble friend will tell me that she sees no holes in my logic. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I had some reservations when I first read this amendment, but then was reassured when the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, went through the planning obligations provisions and the test that had to be met. He then worried me a bit when he went on to describe it as an auction among landowners in the parish potentially seeking out the highest bidder. I would need to read the record and I would be interested in what the Minister has to say about that. Does that not have the potential to be outwith the strict application of planning obligations and the rules that go with that? I do not assert that it is, but certainly the way in which it was expressed gave me some cause for concern that that might be the path that one was heading down. I would be happy to read the record and be reassured otherwise.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, Amendment 210A would give new rights for qualifying bodies—neighbourhood forums and parish councils—to negotiate with landowners on infrastructure contributions and to promote proposals for parishing at the same time as they are preparing a neighbourhood plan. We discussed the issue of parishing earlier on.
The first part of Amendment 210A would allow a qualifying body—the neighbourhood forum or the parish—to negotiate with landowners for contributions to be paid to the community. The expectation is that the landowners would subsequently agree the contributions with the local authority through formal agreements—for example, Section 106 agreements. There is nothing to stop local communities talking to landowners about how their land may be used in a way which benefits the landowner and community, but the responsibility for confirming what conditions or agreements are necessary to make the proposed development acceptable must remain with the local planning authority. In determining a planning application, the authority will have regard to the provisions of the development plan, including any neighbourhood plans in force.
The amendment would cause significant confusion about when such contributions would be paid by the landowner, how they would meet the strict legal tests for planning obligations and how any of the community’s negotiations could be secured by legal agreements between the landowner and the local authority. I want to make it clear that whatever negotiations and agreements take place, what land is allocated in a plan should never be simply a case of which landowner is prepared to share the biggest proportion of land value uplift with the community. That was the point that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was making. I accept the broad approach of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, to this. However, I must reassert that it is the local planning authorities which must determine what obligations are necessary to mitigate development impacts, and that will include financial ones.
The second part of Amendment 210A seeks to empower qualifying bodies to promote referendums or proposals on parishing alongside referendums on neighbourhood planning. In my recent letter to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, which he has quoted extensively and which I have placed in the House Library, I repeated our commitment in the public services White Paper to consider how to make it easier for local people, including neighbourhood forums, to take advantage of existing legislation which allows for the establishment of parish or community councils. Nothing would legally prevent the joint holding of referendums into a neighbourhood plan and into proposals for creating a new parish council.
With these reassurances—on the commitment from landowners and on parishing—I hope that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful for that explanation. Yes, I am getting a clearer idea of where these things will go and the role that the local councils will have to play in moderating these things. As the local councils have to hold the contracts, they clearly have to have a role in deciding what is reasonable. I hope that they will take an activist role in that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lucas
“Preservation of local amenities(1) The Town and Country Planning Act 1990 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 59 after subsection (3) insert—
“(4) A provision in a development order has effect subject to the provisions in a neighbourhood development order under the Localism Act 2011, which may over-ride the development order in all or any respects.””
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I will speak at the same time to Amendment 210AB. Amendment 210AC, which is in this group, was admirably covered earlier by an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I will not need to speak to Amendment 232A, which appears later; I am sure that the reply my noble friend will give on these amendments will cover that too.
Since we have done away with local referenda, we need some way of making localism relevant within cities. Planning is not the issue that is really going to get to people in cities. It is much more, as I said earlier, aspects of the way that they are dealt with by local councils within the matters that they have within their gift. I have picked up, in Amendment 210AB, their control over the way roads are used. When an area wants to examine pedestrianisation and alternative uses for parts of the street, to allow children to play or to affect the speed limits—and, talking more of Lavender Hill, the way in which parking regulations are enforced—those aspects are the sort of things that engage the spirit of the community.
A lot that happens under permitted development orders within planning—the way in which the streetscape changes, the way in which change of use is permitted to commercial premises and the developments of shopping streets that result from that—just goes ahead under permitted development and is not within the scope of neighbourhood planning as foreseen in this Bill. Yet those are the things that engage an urban community. If we want to make something of this Bill and the virtues that it will bring in urban communities, we have to look at giving local, neighbourhood communities some power over these things. I prefer the route that my noble friend Lord True proposed. That is a better way of doing things: to have a clear and formal partnership with good local authorities that will allow these things to develop and allow a voice.
In Battersea, which is within Wandsworth—a good Conservative council; it has been that for a long time—one still does not get that sort of bite on the way that things happen locally. I cannot afford to move to Richmond, so I am rather keen that we do something that will bite on my local council and to get to the position where we have within a neighbourhood plan some things to give urban communities a hold on things that they care about. I have picked two examples of the right way to go about it. That way, we have a hope of using the Bill to create vibrant urban communities that will have a real effect on what happens locally, which is mostly an apparition of the power of the local council. I am not addicted to this way of doing it. However, it is very important that we take this chance to try to create strong, geographically based—rather than racially or spiritually based—neighbourhood communities in cities. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this is another interesting series of amendments tabled by the noble Lord. I cannot but agree with the proposition that doing what we can to build and empower strong local communities must be right. I am not sure that the prescription which the noble Lord offers is right in its totality, particularly on road traffic regulations. In my experience, if one wants to engage a community one has a consultation on pedestrianisation, a one-way system or residents’ parking and sees what the response is. If a council sought to impose something like that without proper consultation, we would certainly see the spirit of the community engendered by those events. However, if we gave each neighbourhood particular powers, for example over pedestrianisation, we would face a clear issue of the view taken by adjoining neighbourhoods. We would almost need to reinvent the duty to co-operate at neighbourhood forum level if we went down this path. The basic proposition to use the opportunities that the Bill presents to enliven, empower and engage communities in an urban setting is absolutely right, but I am not sure whether the prescription of the noble Lord is the best way to achieve it.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, Amendment 210AA would allow neighbourhood development orders to restrict permitted development rights in a neighbourhood area in order to preserve local amenities. Neighbourhood planning has been designed as a new addition to the existing planning system. It is permissive in nature. Therefore, it adds to existing permitted development rights rather than removing rights that already exist. Neighbourhood planning is at the forefront of delivering the Government's reforms and it should not be used to stop or restrict development. Rather, it gives people a real opportunity to shape and influence the places where they live. We need to ensure that the ambitions of people for their neighbourhood are consistent with the needs and ambitions of the residents of the wider area. I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, when he spoke about cities and the effect on neighbourhood planning there. I have a lot of sympathy with the fact that local communities often do not come together, but part of the neighbourhood planning ought to ensure that groups are coming together to discuss all the issues around planning.
My concern with Amendment 210AB is that it would extend the powers available to communities to control the development and planning of their local areas by amending the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. It would expand the local authority’s ability to make traffic regulation orders and by-laws to preserve or improve a local area’s amenities. This is not strictly related to the neighbourhood planning provisions being introduced by the Bill, but does relate to the Government’s wider commitment to extend the powers of local authorities and communities to shape their local areas.
First, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that I support the principle that local authorities and communities should have a greater say in safeguarding local amenities. Similarly, the planning of a neighbourhood should be a holistic process that looks beyond just land-use planning matters to the wider community well-being of an area. A community may use the opportunity of preparing a neighbourhood plan to discuss its priorities for transport in the area. However, there are two key issues with the amendment. First, because neighbourhood plans form part of the statutory development plan for a local area, they can relate only to the development and use of land. Secondly, traffic regulations and by-laws should be a measure of last resort in achieving the goals of sustainable transport that the noble Lord seeks. By-laws create criminal offences intended to prevent specific nuisances. If used inappropriately, they can have a significant adverse effect on the local environment and economy. They should be employed only when all other measures have failed. Therefore, this amendment is unnecessary.
Again, I do not want to undermine the noble Lord’s principle of making sure that local neighbourhoods have the opportunity to discuss the things that affect them. If ever there was anything that affected them, it is traffic, parking and so on. However, this cannot be dealt with under localism in this part of the Bill, which covers neighbourhood planning. As a wider objective, I do not think that anybody would have any disagreement with the idea that local neighbourhoods should be at the forefront of thinking about the wider things that matter to them. It is just not appropriate here. I hope that with those explanations, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that explanation. It is clear that I am not going to get anywhere. However, I shall come back to this when we get our next opportunity, because I have been converted by the Government's enthusiasm for localism. I just want to see it in Battersea as well as Hampshire. I shall support my noble friend Lord True, should he choose to reappear in one form or another at Third Reading, and remain silent. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Berkeley
I have some worries about the whole concept. Many noble Lords have talked about what should and should not be on this list. It is a very good list, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, certainly deserves a lot of credit for putting it together, if that is the right word. But there is not so much in it about development. There is lots about sustainability, which of course I love, but my slight worry is that—notwithstanding the debate going on at the moment about the presumption in favour of development, which I am sure we will talk about later—if there is to be development, it has to be done in an environmentally friendly way but must also be reasonably cost effective.
A Treasury report was produced by Infrastructure UK last year. It said that the civil engineering developments in this country are probably 60 per cent higher than they are in Germany, and goes on to say that the labour costs are much the same. The conclusion that one should probably draw from that is that the difference is to a large extent taken into account with the complexity of planning. Of course we need to have planning but, as my noble friend said just now, if we go too far down that road it will be a lawyers’ bonanza and take a very long time and nothing will get built. In the end, we are in the end going to be competing with other European and world countries about what we produce.
It is useful to have a definition. I think that we need more in it about the development side, so that is sustainable. But we must also recognise that one of the benefits of having something like this in the Bill, and possibly the national planning policy framework, is that it enables us and other people to help to hold the Government to account. Governments in the past 20 or so years, ever since John Major apparently invented the world “sustainability”, have all paid lip service to sustainability and a green environment until life got difficult. We have the 80 per cent carbon reduction target. The last Government made some attempt to go towards them, and this Government are also making some attempt, but if you look to where they have got to, in my view, many people will think, “Thank goodness that we will have retired and may even be dead by the time it comes into force in 40 years’ time—so it does not really matter”.
Yesterday the Department for Transport announced a trial of longer lorries. That is great for the environment, is it not, and great for road accidents and the quality of life? There is need for much more joined-up government right across these things, and some clauses like this would help us to hold the Government to account. I believe that we can get growth and development in a sustainable way, and this is a good contribution towards it—but possibly putting it in the national planning policy framework would be easier, and we could have a much better debate about what should be in it.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I find myself very much siding with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on this. Sustainable development is rather like well-being; it is a concept that we think we know when we see it, and occasionally we will try to pin down what it means in definitions like the one we see before us. But actually it means different things in different times and different places, and should do so.
The development of a nuclear power station, looked at on a very local scale, is completely unsustainable, but on a national scale it may be sustainable. So scale is very important. Likewise, something which on a national scale may be an undesirable policy may be just what a village needs in order to flourish.
Again, when you set out a definition like this, even without including design or spirituality, you find that in every individual instance bits of the definition do not apply, or apply in very perverse ways. How does one apply great chunks of this definition to, say, the siting of a sewage farm? There are bits of it that do not seem to hang in there at all under those circumstances—
Lord Jenkin of Roding
An illustration of what my noble friend is talking about is that it is a developer who builds a new house in the forest, and an environmentalist who goes and lives in it.
Lord Lucas
That is a nice illustration. There are bits of wording; as my noble friend Lord Deben said, if we are going to put something in legislation, then we must produce something that works in the courts. An authority must know that it is complying with the law and other people must be able to judge whether it has complied with the law. There are bits in here which are frankly impossible from that point of view. The words “of all” appear several times, and completely remove the definition from reality when it comes to deciding the matter in a court. There are things about future generations, where we cannot know or even begin to imagine. We hardly know what is happening to the economy next week, let alone what will be the effects of a future development on future generations. We can do our best to assess that, but we cannot be held accountable for whether it does or does not; one just produces an immediate morass in the courts if one goes down that route.
There is a lack, as several noble Lords have said, of development, or the understanding of development. If you are going to assess a sustainable development you have to look at it as a whole, as a picture of everything that is happening, and not its individual bits; as a picture of what will happen over time, and not at any particular instant. There is no recognition of that at all in this definition. You could trip up a development just because it is doing a bit of harm to something, even though looked at as a whole it was doing good.
Indeed, many developments harm things but do good in other ways, and some developments compromise the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Every time you take a bit of coal, gravel or gas out of the ground, that is not available to future generations. It is inevitable that we are living with compromise and fuzziness in this area. It is up to us to do our best by some well designed guiding lights, but we should not try to pin down a legal definition to something which is not suitable for it.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for moving this amendment. We have added our names to it and give it our full support. On a point of detail, I wonder if the reference to the Planning Act in subsection (3) of the amendment should be 2008 rather than 2004. I particularly commend the spelling out of the guiding principles rather than the adoption of the usual shorthand of the 2005 principles.
The amendment adopts the formulation of promoting sustainable development rather than contributing to it or furthering it, which we discussed in Committee. As the noble Lord said, this amendment would enshrine in primary legislation the duty to promote sustainable development at every tier of the process, including the Secretary of State, although the duty imposed on the Secretary of State relates only to the functions concerning applications for development consent, and this would not appear to cover, for example, the Secretary of State’s engagement with promulgating a national planning policy framework. We might just reflect on that.
There has been a divide in part of our debate today between those who say that these definitions should not be in primary legislation, those who say that it should be in the national planning policy framework and those who say that we should not necessarily seek to spell these out at all. We believe that it is right for it to be in primary legislation. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, on that. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and my noble friend Lord Howarth, queried whether doing so in a sense gives litigants a chance to challenge every decision whichever way it goes. I would argue a corollary: that not having a reasonably sophisticated framework in which these things can be judged equally, if not creating a greater opportunity for litigation, which is one of the key issues with the national planning policy framework as it stands, is a lawyer’s charter.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said that we cannot possibly live every part of our life by this wording. He is right. There will always be a balance, a judgment, to be made about future generations and the current, and about local and national. To do that within the context that this wording creates gives us a real opportunity of achieving what we would broadly all sign up to.
When we discussed this matter in Committee, I understood that the Minister had indicated no change to the Labour Government’s position on the meaning of sustainable development. I think that we had one exchange and I thought that that was confirmed. If this is correct, it is very hard to see how this is reflected in the draft NPPF, which might be interpreted as giving primacy to economic development and be a view that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, may support.
A number of inclusions or omissions suggest a move away from the definition reflected in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. The abandonment of brownfield first, the lack of content around social justice or equality and weaknesses around affordable housing proposals do not seem consistent with no change to the definition of sustainable development. If this debate does nothing else, it gives us the opportunity to hear directly from the Front Bench whether that definition is something to which it adheres, however it may be expressed in legislation or be the framework itself.
The right reverend Prelate raised spirituality and the extent to which that is included. One might argue that it is encompassed within ensuring a strong, healthy and just society, which may be the root to addressing the issues identified by the right reverend Prelate. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, referred to sustainability as being what conservatism was all about. I read these principles and say that it is a fairly good description of what socialism is all about. I am not quite sure what conclusion we might reach from that. It will never be an all-encompassing definition. Certainly, it seems to me to be not inappropriate, if we can get this in the Bill, to spell it out, to expand it and to meet the aspirations of my noble friend about including cultural in the definition. It seems to me that a strong strand from this debate is that there does not have to be a conflict between growth and the environment. The two can be encompassed. There will always be a balance in that judgment.
I was as interested as ever to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, about his earlier experience and his historical references. He was there right at the start, although perhaps there is a competing claim that it was the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who produced, via John Major, the term “sustainability” first. I do not mind who produced it first but we should seek to make sure that we encompass it in these important planning changes before us in the most appropriate way.
We would sign up to the definition and to it being in the Bill. Given where we are in this process, it is very important that we have a clear position from the Government certainly no later than Third Reading. Whether we get partial satisfaction today on this remains to be seen but we certainly cannot let it drift beyond Third Reading. If the Government are not able to bring something forward by then, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to revisit this—we would support him—and test the opinion of the House.
Lord Deben
My Lords, there is an issue here with which I hope the Minister will be very careful. Local authorities need to be reminded all the time, and we have had some difficulty in the past in concentrating the Government’s mind on the place of local authorities in carrying through the nitty-gritty of fighting climate change. Unless we make sure that they understand that they are on the front line and that what they do contributes a huge amount to the totality, we are going to be in difficulty. I do not think that it would matter so much had we not taken quite some time to get that into the whole run of things. This was a big issue in earlier Bills, and I hope that the Minister will understand that there is a real appetite for her to be pretty tough about this and to make sure that local authorities recognise their role.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, notwithstanding my noble friend’s strictures, I think that this is a daffy amendment due to its wording. How can development ever achieve a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions? Building a house emits greenhouse gases. The process of development necessarily involves the emission of greenhouse gases, and when you have created something at the end of that process, that continues to emit greenhouse gases, even if it emits far fewer than would have been emitted with a development done some years ago. Proposed new paragraph (b) at the end of the amendment would do great things for East Anglia. You would be allowed to build only off-shore windmills, waiting for the day when the place flooded.
Lord Judd
My Lords, my regard for the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and his commitment on climate change is second to no one. He has been one of the leading spokespeople, showing a good deal of courage on the importance of this issue. Because of my respect for him, I can say that I think that what he has just said in this debate illustrates a contradiction between what he said earlier on a previous amendment and his position here. On a previous amendment, he argued very strongly that he believed in a society in which people were not told what to do at a local level. He felt that there had to be co-operation and that one could only suggest what might be the responsibility of a local authority or the points that should be taken into account.
This issue illustrates a tension between national priorities and localism, to which there is no absolute answer. The Government may decide that in the interests of the survival of the British people it is necessary to have certain levels of activity in order to make our contribution on climate change. However, unless there are mechanisms for delivering those targets, they become part of the world of dreaming aspiration, as distinct from real, hard policy. I wish that in the deliberations on the Bill we were all more realistic that it will not be only on climate change but on quite a number of issues that we have to strike a balance between national priority and localism.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Lucas
“Empty rates
In section 45 of the Local Government and Finance Act 1988 (unoccupied hereditaments: liability) in subsection 4A for “one” substitute “or equal to one fifth”, and for “prescribed” substitute “chosen in each particular case by the Local Authority”.”
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am not at all sure that this is the right solution to the problem but I am sure the problem is there and I very much hope this Bill will deal with it. When one is looking at the application of localism to urban environments and to giving local communities some degree of control and influence over what is happening, one of the great problems—certainly a problem in the bit of London I lodge in during the week which is Lavender Hill—is empty properties. They are principally retail properties where the owners appear to have decided that they would rather they went empty than accept a lower rent and have some kind of commercial activity within them.
My view is that these owners should pay the full cost they are inflicting on the community by following that course of action. By allowing the street to appear derelict and empty they reduce the trade for other businesses. They reduce the prosperity of the area. They reduce the opportunity for jobs for people who live in the area. It is a thoroughly delinquent behaviour. It is something that costs the rest of the community dear. I do not believe that the current arrangements that merely allow for an ordinary empty rate are at all satisfactory. If we are going to have in the future the opportunity to create a neighbourhood in Lavender Hill, one of the first things we will wish to tackle is all the empty shops. We will not wish to do it by trying to persuade people to pay the vast rents which the street used to be able to command in the days when it was prosperous which was now some long while ago—it was 10 or 15 years ago. Some of these properties have stood empty since then. We will need some way of battening on to these landlords and making them realise that although it is their property and theirs to do what they do with it, if they choose to leave it empty and derelict they should pay the community something in respect of the costs they are causing it by their actions. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord has drawn attention to a significant problem with commercial property but the same principle can apply to residential property, particularly in the private rented sector. There are a significant number of homes left empty—it runs into some hundreds of thousands. In urban areas in particular it is very often private rented properties that are left unoccupied. They are as much a blight on the local neighbourhood as empty commercial properties and of course the demand for accommodation is considerable. Just recently walking around the ward I represent I noticed a number of properties that have been empty for some years. They are not in particularly good condition but not sufficiently dangerous to allow the local authority to take steps. It would certainly be an incentive for landlords to let those properties and bring them into use for the benefit of the whole area if a similar principle were adopted for residential properties as the noble Lord proposes for commercial properties. I hope the Government will look sympathetically on that aspect of it and endorse the noble Lord’s amendment.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who moved it. The amendment would give authorities the power to reduce the liability for empty property rates. Our ability to take action on empty property rates needs to be balanced against the costs involved, the targeted support that we already provide on business rates and the overriding need to reduce public expenditure and support the economy generally by reducing the deficit. This Government have already doubled small business rate relief for two years, which will benefit about half a million rate payers, with about one-third of a million paying no rates at all for that period. We are also taking powers through this Bill to waive £175 million of backdated business rates demands levied on businesses, including some in ports.
Unfortunately, in taking these matters into consideration, support for empty property rate measures is currently simply unaffordable. While the Government have no immediate plans for reform, we are certainly keeping this matter under review. However, the Bill does give local authorities powers to provide discounts on business rates bills as they see fit, provided they fund the relief themselves. So authorities will be able to reduce bills in the way suggested by the amendment.
I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw the amendment, but I assure him that the matter is under review. It is quite interesting, because I have within the papers here a note about the reliefs. In 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11, changes were made.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, can I just point out to my noble friend that the effect of my amendment is not to reduce business rates but to multiply them by five times, resulting in greatly increased revenue to the local authority and the Exchequer. I am afraid that in some way his briefing is somewhat wide of the mark. I should be delighted if he would write to me when his officials have been able to revise their mathematics. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, clearly understands, this is about increasing the rates and increasing government revenue. I would hate it to be thought that I was in any way undermining the stalwart efforts of my right honourable friend the Chancellor to reduce the deficit.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord has made those comments. I think that the officials had difficulties with this, and quite frankly so did I. I sought out the Local Government Finance Act 1998, but I am afraid that it has been amended, because the reference that he makes is not there. Immediately before speaking, I tried to check this myself, because I had some doubt about this. The whole area is under review, as it seems to have been for four years on the trot, because Chancellors and local government people have changed the position. So it is still the fact that the area is under review, but it is one that does impact on the economy. Having heard what the noble Lord said in his latter remarks, clearly, we will need to reflect further. But I cannot make any commitments at this stage. Perhaps a few tender words here and there might help us to understand exactly what he is about.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. I apologise for being so confusing in the preparation of my amendment. I say this as an aside, in case anyone from the House authorities is listening in, it is high time that statutes in force were made easily available to Peers who wish to table amendments. They are in the Library, but that is no use if you happen to be working from outside. I imagine that I picked up the statute as it was on the internet and have been tripped up by that and have confused my noble friend and his officials. I apologise for that. But to have a proper set of statutes in force available over the internet would be a bonus.
As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, understood, this amendment is clearly about trying to allow neighbourhoods through referenda to encourage their local councils as part of a plan to regenerate a neighbourhood to put a squeeze on landlords to bring empty properties back into use. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said. Flats over shops are certainly a significant problem round where we are; there are just empty properties at a time when accommodation is short. There has to be some way in which to encourage these properties back into use, some backstop that allows a local authority to get tough if a landlord will not be reasonable about these things. To my mind, that particularly applies to street frontage property, when the fact that it is empty is apparent to everybody and it becomes a blight on the other people trying to do business. To answer the point made by my noble friend, they can be converted into offices, or starter units for young businesses, which again are in short supply in Lavender Hill, and would be most welcome if we went down that route.
I know that this is a complicated area and I am not at all sure that empty rates is the way in which to attack it, but I would be very grateful for a letter from my noble friend to say how the Government intend to enable neighbourhoods to tackle this problem under the general heading of localism. But for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, if the purpose of this amendment was to enable a short debate on the political engagement of young people, I have no hesitation whatever in supporting that intention. If it is the intention to prescribe how local authorities should do it—and I do not think that it is—it has no place at all in a localism Bill. However, I am assuming it is the former, and indeed I think that the noble Baroness, in moving the amendment, said it was a suggestion—in fact, a very good suggestion. I want briefly to echo the importance of the political engagement of young people in the community. I can only speak with direct experience of my own local authority, where our youth parliament plays a very active role, and which in its elections last year had almost the highest turnout in the whole of London. That is in a relatively small London borough where young people play an active part. Similarly, we have young ambassadors who play a very active part not in matters particularly for young people but in the whole life of the borough, in issues that are of importance to people of all ages.
Therefore I wholly support and encourage the intention of this debate. It is important not just that young people are listened to but that what they are saying is heard and acted on. I can give another example of a project in which I am involved with a new building. We had the young ambassadors round to carry out a very detailed and thorough inspection of it. They raised a whole load of points, both about the physical nature of the building and particularly about the programmes that were being run there. They made a report to us, I ensured that the management board gave them a full written response and they came back six months later to ensure that it was being acted on. That is the sort of engagement that we want, not the rather patronising one where we say, “Yes, of course, that’s very good”, and then do nothing whatever about it. Real engagement means not that we are listening but that we are hearing and that we are acting on their suggestions. To enable me to make that point, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the amendment. I hope very much that she will not press it, because I do not think that it is for us, in a localism Bill, to be prescribing to local authorities how they should act on this issue; rather it is for us to encourage all local authorities to act on it and to do it effectively.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, in contrast to some of my noble friends, I am very much in favour of the involvement of young people in democracy and in giving them a formal role in it.
Lord Cormack
I hope my noble friend will not mind my pointing out that one can be wholly in favour of young people being involved in democracy without necessarily believing that the age of 16 should be the voting age.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, of course I believe always in the wisdom of my noble friend, even if my own views differ. I note that the Government, in their wisdom, always intend to legislate that people of any age may be members of a neighbourhood forum; so young people may well take part in the formation of policy for their area. I regret that the age at which they may vote on it remains 18. As noble Lords may remember from Committee, I would like to see it a good deal lower. I think that when you get down to a very small area, young people have a much more active and early understanding of what needs to be done in a locality than perhaps they do when you are trying to balance the affairs of a whole local authority, let alone a country. However, I celebrate the wisdom of the noble Baroness in not putting an age limit on participation in neighbourhood forums, and I very much hope that she will encourage other ways of allowing young people to participate in neighbourhood referenda and other aspects of localism.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am provoked into making a few remarks. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tope, that this amendment does not have a place in the Localism Bill. However, like him, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for raising this issue. I think we must all accept that we have not engaged our young people sufficiently. When we came back for one day after those dreadful riots, I made the point that perhaps we should consider some form of citizenship ceremony for all young people—I believe at the age of 18, although perhaps it could be 16—where they proclaim recognition of their role, their responsibilities and their allegiance. It would demand reciprocation on our part that they have a greater opportunity to participate.
I do not believe and never have believed that the age of 16 is the right age to vote, but that does not invalidate the general point that I am seeking to make and indeed that the noble Baroness was seeking to make in her brief remarks. I will make my remarks equally brief. I hope that when my noble friend the Minister comes to reply, she will at least be able to indicate a general sympathy, just as I hope—when the noble Baroness withdraws her amendment, as I trust she will—that we will be able to recognise that this is not actually part of a mandate from the Government in a localism Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. It is merely an opportunity for us to encourage local authorities throughout the country to address the issue of young people perhaps a little more imaginatively than some of them have done—although by no means all.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. My morale has been sustained throughout the Recess by the prospect of shortly moving Amendment 195ZB, in which I see I have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. That amendment is directed at the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has addressed. I tabled it at the request of the British Retail Consortium. If it makes any difference to any doubts in the mind of my noble friend the Minister about what she is about to say, she will have the British Retail Consortium on her side when she does so.
I am less sure that Amendments 195D and 195E to Clause 59, which are in my name, will now be unnecessary. If we are to have a break for dinner, there may be an opportunity to find out whether they need to be moved.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am significantly less well informed than the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. This has caught me by surprise, particularly since, in various discussions with my noble friend’s officials, the local referendum was used to ward off my requests for amendments in other areas. To go over some of my concerns, I have, throughout the passage of the Bill, tried to persuade the Government that they need to look at how localism will work in cities. In rural and suburban areas, planning is a great lever and generator of funds. All things will be possible if we get the planning side right. Once you have funds, you have the ability to do what you want in a neighbourhood to a certain extent. You certainly have a lever with which to negotiate with the local authority.
However, even in as gentle an urban area as Lavender Hill, planning has no function as a raiser of funds or people’s enthusiasm. The place is built out. There is very little that planning can do. You will never get a community created in Lavender Hill, let alone some of the more difficult areas of cities, on the basis of what is in the Bill. We should be turning our thoughts to how the section on allowing local initiatives to run local services might be made less formal so that neighbourhoods might group around it. We ought to turn our minds to how neighbourhoods can make representations to local councils and be listened to on subjects that they really care about, such as school catchment areas, how parking is enforced and how decisions are made about the distribution of services.
There are many ways in which we might build localism in cities. Surely the riots have shown us the importance of doing that. However, in removing this provision the Government remove the one bit of the Bill that gives a possible voice to neighbourhoods in cities in trying to persuade their local councils to do something in the way that the neighbourhood wants them to be done. I will not argue with the Minister and my other noble friends that what is in the Bill at the moment is not an expensive and bureaucratic way of doing it, but we have to find something else. The Bill is such an opportunity to improve life in cities but the Government do not seem interested in taking it. I find that enormously disappointing. I am particularly sad that—since somewhere in the great collective mind that is the department there is an awareness of my arguments—I should be kept in the dark and not given time to prepare thoughts and arguments to compensate for this loss later in the Bill. I shall apply myself to it for the rest of the evening. With luck, we shall not get so far into the Bill that I cannot find ways of putting back opportunities to argue these things. As I say, my main concern is that this great opportunity to help build communities in cities is being allowed to pass by at a time when we are all acutely aware that it should not be.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I very much welcome the Government’s decision to accept the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. We debated this at some length in Committee. The drawbacks of the system that the Government had intended to bring in were made manifest at that time. The Government, having made the egregious error—in the view of some of us—of adopting an American system for the direct election of police commissioners, were in danger of incorporating something like a Californian referendum system into local government. It has not been noticeably successful in California.
A referendum is a legitimate way of testing public opinion. That is absolutely right. It is less obvious that the proposals in the original Bill—to allow a very small minority of either elected members or the public to engender petitions on any subject under the sun, at any time and at any cost—would make a significant contribution to the kind of community engagement that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, rightly wishes to see not only for the Lavender Hill mob but more generally. It is a perfectly legitimate and, indeed, important part of what local government and local governance must be about. However, there are other ways of involving communities and testing opinion. It is a pity that one of those ways—the petitioning procedure that was admittedly somewhat overcomplicated by the degree of regulation applied to it—has been abolished by the Bill. It required a council response to a petition from residents. It was a good measure. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, made great play of the fact that it was extremely bureaucratic in the way that the previous Government laid out how these things should be conducted. There was some force in that but the principle was a good one. It required an authority to respond to a concern that was formally raised by petition. I hope that the Government might, even at this late stage, given that they have taken out this part on referendums, look again at whether that might be reintroduced, perhaps in some more acceptable form than previously.
There is also the councillor call for action. I do not think that the Government have disturbed that principle. Admittedly, it is up to a local councillor to make the call but, on the other hand, a councillor who declines to make a call when faced with a considerable body of opinion in his ward is unlikely to remain a councillor for long. There is also that mechanism. Generally, in recent years local government has been more inclined to establish local mechanisms for consultation and involvement. I hope that that will be reinforced. However, the substantial construction of the previous arrangements for referendum effectively constituted an invitation for people to make mischief, which would have happened, to divide communities, which would also have happened, and to involve the authority in considerable expense. It could run into hundreds of thousands of pounds for a significant-sized authority. The noble Lord, Lord True, expressed serious concerns on that basis. Therefore, we very much welcome the withdrawal of this proposition, which leaves three areas where referendums might occur, as we have heard. We shall come to one of those, namely the council tax referendum, shortly.
Under the circumstances, I am not sure that it is right at this point to raise some of the concerns of the Electoral Commission, with which some of your Lordships will be familiar, about how such referendums—now in only three categories—might be conducted. It raises a concern about expenditure in promoting referendums of that kind. Clearly, for local referendums that are being abandoned it will no longer apply. However, it will still be potentially applicable to other referendums—the three that have been referred to, on elected mayors, council tax and neighbourhood planning issues, which we will eventually come to. I raise it now so that Ministers might have an opportunity to think a little about the Electoral Commission’s concerns. They may of course have a response already; but if they have not, then those concerns will not disappear because these particular provisions are no longer to feature in the Bill.
I hope that in the course of further debate we will have an elucidation of the Government’s position in relation to what is a real concern in respect of how the remaining referendums might be conducted, and, more particularly, how they might be financed. Subject to that, I certainly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and I am pleased that the Government are, as the noble Baroness so gently puts it, minded to accept them.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords we now move to that part of the Bill regarding right to challenge. The first set of Government amendments—there are eight amendments in the group—seek to improve the workability of the right and to clarify certain issues that arose in response to our recent consultation exercise and indeed at the Committee stage in your Lordships’ House. Our consultation on the community right to challenge showed there is a real appetite to extend the duty to consider challenges under the right to more public authorities, including central government departments. Seventy-three per cent of respondents on this issue supported this course of action and I believe it has the support of many in this House. During our deliberations in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, suggested several services provided by government departments to which the right could be extended.
Clause 69(2)(d) already gives the Secretary of State the power to add other persons or bodies carrying on functions of a public nature as relevant authorities. Amendment 197B ensures that these persons or bodies could include a Minister of the Crown or a government department. Amendment 197C ensures that if the duty is extended to a person or body that exercises functions outside England, the right to submit an expression of interest will apply only to services provided by that person or body in England.
Amendment 197D responds to a query raised by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, in Committee about whether a public or local authority could be a community body. This was never our intention. In line with the definition of a voluntary body in Clause 69(6), we are therefore amending Clause 69(8) to clarify that a public or local authority cannot be a community body.
Amendments 197E, 197F, 197G and 197H are about enabling relevant authorities to determine timescales. They make changes to the provisions on the timescales associated with the community right to challenge in response to concerns raised by many local authorities, and others, during our recent consultation. These concerns focused on the difficulty of setting timescales nationally that could take account of the wide variations in services and circumstances and did not interfere with timescales for existing commissioning cycles. We agree with these concerns and are therefore amending the provisions to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to set timescales in regulations and replace them with a requirement for relevant authorities to set these timescales instead. We intend to set out in guidance, to which authorities will need to have regard under Clause 73(2), the factors they should take account of in doing this.
We have outlined what we expect these factors to be in the policy statement on the community right to challenge which was recently made available to Peers. Chief among them is the need for authorities to set timescales that give relevant bodies sufficient time—whether that is to prepare and submit an expression of interest or organise themselves to bid effectively in a procurement exercise or ensure relevant bodies are notified of decisions within a reasonable time. Authorities will also be required to publish details of these timescales.
Amendment 197E therefore removes the Secretary of State’s powers to specify the minimum periods which authorities can specify for the submission of expressions of interest. Clause 70(2) already enables authorities to specify periods for the submission of expressions of interest and Clause 70(3) to publish details of these periods.
Amendment 197F removes the Secretary of State’s power to specify the minimum and maximum periods which must elapse between the acceptance of an expression of interest and the commencement of the procurement exercise. Instead authorities are required to specify and publish details of these periods, which can be different for different cases.
Finally, Amendments 197G and 197H remove the duty on authorities to make a decision on an expression of interest within a timescale specified by the Secretary of State in regulations. Instead the authority must specify and publish the maximum time this decision will take. In order to prevent delay, relevant authorities will also be required to inform the relevant body of this maximum period in writing, either within 30 days of the end of the period for receiving expressions of interest, or where none exists, within 30 days of receiving an expression of interest. It must then notify the relevant body of its decision within the timescale it has specified. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
I should be very grateful if my noble friend could go into a little more detail about Amendment 197E. He has removed there the ability of the Secretary of State to set minimum timescales. I understand what he says about flexibility. But if a local authority wishes to discourage activity under this part of the Bill, then timescales are where it will squeeze most easily. As my noble friend says, community organisations will take time to get themselves organised, to get their bids in and get them up to the standard required for subsequent scrutiny and competition. It is not clear to me in all the liberalising—from the point of view of the local authority—which is going on in these amendments, how the community, or bits of the community, can effectively appeal against, or have some notice taken, of a local authority which is setting very short timescales, which make things impracticable. There is guidance there. If the local authority does not go along with guidance, there does not seem to be any set of teeth that can be sunk into the local authority.
My experience of this is mostly in terms of parking regulations. There, again, the Government issue guidance. If the local authority goes against that guidance, no one takes any action of any description at all. Here it seems to be rather more important that in order to encourage action under this part of the Bill, there is an effective policing of the actions of local authorities to make sure that they are opening themselves up to what must be in many cases an inconvenient and, in their view unnecessary, application of neighbourhood rights and interests, with a system which they have got running very nicely, thank you very much. I would very much like some comfort that there will be an effective substitute for the backstop provided by the Secretary of State in the Bill as we have it now, which is being removed by these amendments, in cases where a local authority is acting to make this part of the Bill unworkable. I hope my noble friend can give me some comfort on that.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
I do not know whether I can give the noble Lord any comfort. The problem is that, on the one hand, people are asking for localism and letting the locals decide and, on the other hand, the noble Lord is saying, “Let the Secretary of State be on their back”. We cannot have it both ways. We certainly hope that people will be reasonable. For example, to have an expression of interest that is open for five minutes would not be reasonable. I should have thought that there would be other ways in localities to put a stop to that. It is as a result of our earlier debates and concerns about the Secretary of State being too prescriptive in these matters that some of these amendments have been brought forward. I should have thought that that would be appreciated by the House. But we are seeing the other view, which I know exists from time to time, that there will be recalcitrant local authorities which will not get on with things as people hope they might. I think we have moved in the right direction and, if it goes wrong and the recalcitrant authorities become a multitude, clearly something would have to be done, but perhaps we ought to trust local people and local authorities.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this little group of amendments raises some important and fundamental issues relating to the community right to challenge. I shall speak also to Amendment 197DA. I think that there is also a Labour amendment in the group.
We are back in the Alice in Wonderland world of relevant bodies, relevant authorities and relevant services. Amendment 197CA would leave out the provision that two or more employees of a relevant authority—a local authority—can be specified as a relevant body, in other words, a body which can challenge to run a service. The Bill defines “relevant body” as,
“a voluntary or community body, … a body of persons or a trust which is established for charitable purposes only, … a parish council, … in relation to a relevant authority, two or more employees of that authority, or … such other person or body as may be specified by the Secretary of State”.
The term “two or more employees” of a relevant authority does not seem to fit in with that list of defined bodies. One assumes that the other bodies defined by the Secretary of State will be community bodies. Employees are different.
That is not to say that there are not circumstances in which employees can, and indeed ought to, take over responsibility for the running of services on behalf of the principal council. Many of us would like to see far more organisations such as mutuals and co-operatives, which provide what, in a long lifetime ago in the Young Liberals, we used to call worker control—my noble friend Lord Tope remembers all that. Employee bodies or groups of employees taking over the running of services in a co-operative way is a perfectly valid and desirable way in which, in appropriate circumstances, public services can be run. They may be arm’s-length or more than arm's-length bodies.
However, it is our view that if the Government are interested in that—they have given some indication that they may be—that should be addressed as a separate issue. It is not the same as allowing a couple or half a dozen employees to go off on their own initiative and to do their own thing regardless of what the rest of the staff think. The Labour amendment in this group suggests that any such initiative should have the support of at least half the employees. On the face of it, that seems sensible.
There is concern that a small number of employees could act as a proxy for commercial companies coming in on the back of the provision. In our discussion with Ministers and civil servants, we have been given many assurances that safeguards are set out in the Bill to avoid that happening. The Ministers we have talked to have been absolutely clear that they do not see that as desirable, that it ought not to happen and that it can be prevented. I am asking my noble friend today not just for a statement that the safeguards are there but for a clear explanation on the record of how local authorities will be able to prevent that possible abuse. It is possible, as Ministers have told us, that that is unlikely to happen very often, but that is not a reason for not taking action to prevent it.
As for the process in which the community right to challenge will take place, I am widening the debate slightly to avoid saying quite so much on the next group of amendments. The first process is that a relevant body has to be approved by the council. If it is a parish council, it is automatic. If it is a community or voluntary body, the principal council will have to approve it as being a relevant body. The second part of the process is that a relevant body may make an expression of interest to run a service and the principal council has to decide whether to accept that expression of interest. So long as it fits the rules and regulations, it will not be able to reasonably refuse it. The third part of the exercise is that, having accepted an expression of interest, the principal council has to carry out a procurement exercise.
The concern that a lot of us now have is not about the processes in this Bill for approving a relevant body, which are full of all kinds of safeguards, with the possible exception of the provision relating to employees. We are not too concerned about the process of accepting an expression of interest, which again seems to have a number of safeguards written into it. It is in the procurement exercise where the problems seem to lie. Once the expression of interest is accepted, the procurement exercise comes into effect automatically. It seems to us that safeguards against abuse of the process are crucial.
Amendment 197DA is a different amendment. In Clause 69(8), “community body” is defined as,
“a body that carries on activities primarily for the benefit of the community”.
This amendment would add on the end of that,
“and is actively engaged in doing so in the area in which the relevant service is being provided”.
The amendment restricts the definition of a community body to a body which is active in the community referred to. It restricts it to local bodies or to wider bodies which are already active in the area. Otherwise, it would be wide open, for example, to a large national charity that has no presence whatever in an area to move in and try to take over services. If it is about community bodies, surely it is about bodies which are already active in that community.
I look forward to the Minister’s comments on that and in particular to his explanation of how the safeguards will apply to prevent abuse, particularly of a small number of employees putting in a bid for a service. Also, in general, what safeguards will there be against large commercial companies using this operation to sweep up services, which is what Ministers are repeatedly telling us they do not intend to happen?
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I face in a slightly different direction from my noble friend Lord Greaves. I hope my noble friend on the Front Bench can give me some comfort that, when the regulations are set out for this, they will have in mind how desirable it is that we should encourage the creation of neighbourhood-based community organisations to take on services currently provided by the state. One of the difficulties that we face in cities is that people have become used to the comfort of state provision, although they are getting extremely grumpy in some cases with the way in which it is provided.
If a community in a city is to get together and go through the process of preparing to bid for a service which it values, it is going to need considerable comfort and assistance in the regulations to make sure that it is not going to get tripped up on technicalities and that the local council can offer advice rather than having to stand back and treat this strange creature as a competitor to any commercial interests which may come along to bid for it afterwards. We need to be equipping ourselves in this Bill to nurture local enterprises and communities in cities to give them a chance through the provision of services to generate a surplus for reinvestment in the community. That is what we are doing elsewhere in this Bill for rural communities, which will generate a comfortable surplus out of planning permission, but we are doing nothing for inner city communities. This is the bit of the Bill where we give relatively compact communities easy access to a diversity of resources. Cities exist because they have that advantage over rural communities.
We need to give the local elements of those communities a real chance to get involved in providing local services and in that way generate surpluses which they can reinvest in the community and do the things that they want to do. I should like my noble friend to give me comfort that the department has urban communities in particular in mind in this part of the Bill.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, introduced the debate and then strolled off into the area covered by my notes for the next section, so I will trespass into them and see whether that works.
Before I respond in general I will deal with the matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, because I am aware that he was not particularly comforted on the last occasion that I responded to him. I hope that he will be now, because if he looks at Clause 74, he will see that it is headed, “Provision of advice and assistance”. I will not say that it is littered with the words “Secretary of State”, but they are there half a dozen times, which suggests that the Secretary of State may well give advice and assistance to those who want to be involved in the challenge. I understand that the department’s view is that the clause would be used to give help and advice to various organisations that may be far better able to tackle the challenge.
Lord Lucas
My Lords will my noble friend clarify whether that would be the case when the Secretary of State was being challenged under the amendments made earlier by my noble friend?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
That is a little further down the road, is it not? If the clause states that that advice is being given, then that advice is being given. Therefore, if the Secretary of State is directly giving a service that is ultimately challenged, I would have thought that that had to be, quite frankly. However, that is a little further down the road and it will not happen tomorrow. Nevertheless, it is there that advice can be given and I hope that that will be helpful to my noble friend.
I will look at these notes and respond accordingly. Amendment 197CA would remove relevant authority employees as a relevant body, meaning that they would be unable to express an interest in running a relevant service. The coalition programme for government committed to empowering public sector staff to take control of their own services in new enterprises such as mutuals. That was reinforced in the recent publication of the Open Public Services White Paper. The Cabinet Office is leading on implementing this commitment by introducing a new right to provide. The inclusion of employees of the relevant authority as relevant bodies under the right to challenge will implement the right to provide in relation to local authority services.
To accept this amendment would be a great shame. Employees are often best placed to see how services could be improved and their ideas could make a huge difference in delivering more efficient, effective and responsive services. The amendment could prevent those good ideas from seeing the light of day by forcing employees to organise themselves as a charity, voluntary or community body simply in order to express an interest. Employees may not be prepared to be in a position to undertake such a process before an expression of interest has even been accepted, although of course they will have to comply with the requirements for what must be in an expression of interest.
In addition, this could create a parallel process with employees putting their ideas to local authorities outside the procedure set out in the right. This would risk jeopardising the transparency of the process: proposals should be evaluated consistently whether they originate from existing employees, a parish council or a voluntary or community body.
It is worth noting that in the policy statement, the Community Right to Challenge, which was made available in the House Library on 8 September, we make it clear that safeguards will be in place to prevent the kind of abuse of the right that is concerning some noble Lords. For example, the policy statement states our intention to provide that expressions of interest will have to set out the relevant body’s case that they are capable of providing the service and of competing in a procurement exercise. That will work to ensure that only employees serious about running a service express an interest in running it and should discourage any abuse of the right. In addition, employees submitting an expression of interest will need to set out how they propose to engage with staff affected by the expression of interest in the development of their proposal.
Amendment 197CB, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, deals with employee support for challenges. I understand that the intention behind the amendment is to apply a condition to Clause 69(5)(e) that employees must first obtain the support of a majority of employees affected by their expression of interest before they can be considered a relevant body. The policy statement I referred to previously also set out our intention to require employees to set out in their expression of interest their proposals for staff engagement. However, we do not want to be prescriptive about how this is to be achieved. It is best decided locally rather than centrally. The experience of the way the right to request has worked in the National Health Service shows that existing, well established communication channels are likely to play an important part in engaging staff. There is no requirement for a ballot to demonstrate staff support for a proposal under the right to request. However, the face-to-face meetings, intranet updates and staff clinics undertaken when some 1,200 staff from the Hull primary care trust used the right to transfer to a social enterprise show that good communication between the staff involved is likely to be at the heart of any successful challenge.
Lord True
My Lords, I must intervene. Obviously the noble Lord has not developed his arguments at the same length as in Committee but I am afraid I am as unconvinced by them now as I was then. It is certainly a worthy thing to pay lip service to freedom of information but one has to think about the practical impact of what is proposed. Although the noble Lord says that in Amendment 199 he places a limit on the extent of the burden by specifying contracts for any sum over £1 million, this is vitiated by the fact that his amendment goes on to say:
“Where such a contract is to any extent performed by means of a sub-contract, that sub-contract shall be deemed to include a freedom of information provision”,
and so on. It is like unwrapping a Russian doll. As we discussed in Committee, many of these large contracts may relate to construction, for example, where many small businesses will be involved. This may be onerous for small businesses and those businesses may well find themselves caught by the way that this amendment is drafted. The only people exempted are legal advisers to those bodies. Indeed, any other person acting on behalf of a sub-contractor, such as the bookkeeper of a small business, may be brought in to the scope of that amendment, as I read it. I should like the Minister to reflect carefully before going in that direction.
I argued that the new clause proposed by Amendment 201 could be absurdly onerous on local authorities. The noble Lord’s amendment uses “relevant authority”, which means that any parish council or community council in this country would have to publish annual reports on the Freedom of Information Act, environmental regulations and information on the number of requests that it had received. All the provisions here would apply to every authority in the country. My own council is very willing to comply with the Act—anybody can ask a question about it at council; we had a question on it answered two council meetings ago and this information was given—but the cost of doing so is already more than £100,000 a year. With the greatest respect, I do not think that extending this degree of reporting responsibility down to the level of the merest parish council and community council in this country, let alone larger authorities, is appropriate or necessary.
While respecting the enthusiasm of the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I hope that my noble friend will resist his amendment for the reasons that I and others have given and that we can proceed with the rest of the Bill.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wills, is quite right that enthusiasm for freedom of information seems to wane the longer a party is in power. He is perhaps sitting there, safely in the far corner of the Back Benches, so that he does not get too heavily stamped on by his own Front Bench. The Labour Party quite clearly lost enthusiasm for the Freedom of Information Bill in the course of taking it through Parliament. It was by the narrowest of squeaks that it survived at all, and that was only six months into government. If it has developed a new affection for it now, I am delighted, but I do not expect it to last.
However, on our Front Bench, we have Mr Freedom of Information himself. My noble friend has been dedicated to this cause for a long time, so I hope that he will take a constructive view of what we might do. I share many of the concerns of my noble friend Lord True and do not think that this amendment does the trick. However, more openness in local government and more consideration of which of the larger contracts in local government should be open to freedom of information would be consistent with the way in which the Government are going; for instance, in considering whether examination boards should be subject to the Freedom of Information Act or putting UCAS on the list of bodies subject to it, as we have a draft regulation to do at the moment. If the processes of the Health and Social Care Bill lead to a substantial transfer of what is currently public activity away from the public gaze, I shall propose that we make sure that it is brought back swiftly through the Freedom of Information Act. I do not see this Bill as leading to large-scale transfers of activity away from the public gaze into obscurity, but there should be some protection in case there is. I hope that we get a constructive answer from my noble friend.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I shall resist the temptation to stamp on my noble friend; it is a highly resistible proposition. I support the thrust of his amendments. Indeed, I detect certain sympathy on the detail of Amendment 199 from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. There are matters in it that are worthy of further consideration by government and I hope that they will not simply reject the topic out of hand even if they cannot quite accept the wording of the amendments for reasons which have been advanced tonight and perhaps others.
On the new clause that would be inserted by Amendment 201, it is not an extraordinary demand to make of a public body that it should keep a record of, or at least do a report on, requests for freedom of information. I should have thought that this was a reasonably appropriate matter for a council audit committee—I serve on such a committee—to have before it as it is information about the governance of the authority. It does not seem to me that the amendment seeks to impose an inherently onerous obligation. It is one that should be within the knowledge of members of that authority. I think that routing it through the audit committees, or possibly standards committees, of councils would be a good way to ensure that elected members do not lose sight of the council’s obligations and that they ensure that their officers actually comply with them. I hope that the Minister will accede to my noble friend’s request to think about this and to perhaps bring something back at Third Reading. It is an important issue and although sometimes, obviously, there are difficulties in complying with requests, there is no reason why these issues should not be examined and, in the interest of good governance, improvements made to the local regime.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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The Earl of Lytton
I support the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. I, too, am a member of the Country Landowners’ Association and a landowner. Briefly, we need to ensure that there is an authentic local view at work here. We need a reasonable level of general support to be established and demonstrated, and we need a coherent and reasoned justification for things to be included as “commons”. We do not need national agendas, narrow sectoral bases of arguments, frivolous or vexatious grounds, or to give succour to a no-development ethos. As the noble Baroness rightly pointed out, this is currently capable of being a free bet. That cannot be allowed to continue. There are clearly well-documented instances of abuse of process and therefore I support her in the amendment.
Lord Lucas
My amendment seeks to remedy this difficulty by allowing neighbourhood plans to rule out the creation of village greens that the neighbourhood plan does not recognise.
Lord Best
My Amendment 170CK, which comes later in the Bill, is not quite as imaginative as the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. It is a more pedestrian way of dealing with the matter by amending the Commons Act 2006, which is essential. At nominal cost to the applicant, frivolous and vexatious applications can add so much cost and delay to a scheme as to deter the developer or housing association from proceeding. I have personal experience of this, being familiar with a development in York. We were attempting to create a significant new mixed-tenure community of some 540 homes and, despite the council being fully in support of that, havoc was wreaked by a village green application to incorporate the whole of a 53-acre site. It was made on the basis that a local resident had been walking their dog on the site for the past 20 years, thereby meeting the criteria of lawful sport or pastimes. Since the tolerant owner had taken no legal action against them, the case could be made that this large site could possibly be England’s largest village green. Although the proposition was in due course thrown out, it involved my charity in considerable frustration, the potential loss of public and private funding, considerable expense and delay of more than a year. A less tenacious developer might well have given up, depriving the city of York of what will be a huge asset for generations to come.
Perhaps I may quote from one landowner in Norfolk, whose perspective has been sent as an illustration by the Hastoe Housing Association. They state:
“I believe that affordable homes are vital in sustaining rural communities. As a result, when Hastoe with the backing of the parish council approached me about selling them some land, I agreed. Many people retiring from the south-east have moved to this area of Norfolk, raising prices beyond the local people’s means and threatening the future of the [village] school … Unfortunately, this decision to help has resulted in me becoming involved in an extraordinary process that will last several years and cost me many thousands of pounds. What is so frustrating is I have detailed crop records for the past 20 years and an acknowledgement from those claiming the arable field as a village green, that they never walk on it when it is in crop. On top of that, those making the claim have taken more than two years putting in their village green application, are funded by somebody whose main home is not in the village and have refused to reveal themselves to the rest of the village. However, it appears that the law is so badly drafted and open to so much interpretation, that the County Council admits that it is extremely unlikely to throw out the claim until it has gone to Public Inquiry as they do not want to run the risk of having to pay for any legal challenge to their initial decision”.
Naturally, this example of big society action by the landowner means that he and no doubt dozens of others are unlikely to part with any land until this overindulgent legislation is reined in.
My amendment looks at the nitty-gritty of the situation and proposes ways in which the law could be amended. I will briefly outline what it says. Amendment 170CK would stop retrospective application for town and village green status after planning consent has been granted, which is currently possible. It would prevent efforts to overwhelm the authority with excessive paperwork, allow authorities to reject vexatious or frivolous applications and allow the recouping of costs in such cases. It would make deregistration possible where a review showed that the village green status had, some time later, become obsolete. I hope that the amendment commends itself to your Lordships and the Minister.
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Greaves
My Lords, I have some amendments in this group, which I shall try to rattle through as quickly as possible. I start by saying that we support the broad thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has just said.
Amendment 148ZZBBB is a kite-flying amendment that would include building improvement and renovation of housing. The noble Lord has spoken more eloquently than I would have done, so I shall say no more about that. However, this is a very serious problem with the new system.
Amendments 148ZZBBA and 148ZZCA, are very similar to amendments that were tabled in the House of Commons by my right honourable friend Simon Hughes. He asked us to table them again here, since he was given a fairly sympathetic response by the Minister when he talked to him about the amendments—they were tabled in the Commons but they were not debated there. They would widen the possible use of the CIL. Amendment 148ZZBBA leaves out the words “providing infrastructure to support” and inserts the word “supporting”. The proposed provision refers to the development of an area. In other words, the amendment would allow the CIL to be spent on projects that support the development of an area, and not just what might be narrowly defined as infrastructure. The amendment would amend Section 205 of the Planning Act 2008.
Amendment 148ZZCA makes a similar amendment to Section 216 of that Act, which at the moment—ignoring the preamble—reads:
“CIL regulations must require the authority that charges CIL to apply it, or cause it to be applied, to funding infrastructure”.
Amendment 148ZZCA would add “or any other matter”. That means that CIL could be used to fund things that are desirable in the area but not necessarily described as infrastructure.
Many areas, particularly big cities, do not necessarily require extra investment in their infrastructure, but that does not mean that local residents are not inconvenienced by development. They might be inconvenienced by noise, dirt or dust, or there may be nuisance from the operation of the development. A supermarket could have people coming in and out all the time, and making noise around closing time. This could be mitigated by investment in, for example, double glazing. However, this is not currently allowed under the legislation; it is not regarded as infrastructure. In reality, councillors with the opportunity of getting CIL will always levy it and will always find ways of spending it. However, they will not necessarily spend it on the best and most useful thing that they could spend it on if they have to stay within the narrow definition of infrastructure.
Amendments 148ZZBBC and 148ZZCC just propose replacing “ongoing” with “continuous”. I regard “ongoing” as being an unpleasant American word that came in probably several decades ago—I do not know—but the English word is, in my view, “continuous”, which would be better and more elegant.
Amendment 148ZZCD refers to regulation-making powers in the Bill that refer to passing CIL,
“to a person other than that authority”.
I am not trying to remove that provision, and I should say that this is a probing amendment to find out what that phrase means and who these other persons might be that the authority would or might have to pass the CIL to.
Amendment 148ZZBAZA relates to the same argument about authorities being able to make up their own minds after a charging scheme has been examined by an examiner and to obtaining their recommendations. It is the same argument that was made two groups ago, and I will not say any more about it. I do not imagine that the Government will agree with me about that, but it is important. The next amendment in the group is about the same matter, so I shall not speak to it any further.
Finally, I speak to Amendment 148ZZZBE. On page 77 of the Bill, proposed new subsection (7A) to Section 211 states:
“A charging authority must use appropriate available evidence to inform the charging authority’s preparation of a charging schedule”.
That seems to be garbage. Why does that have to be in legislation? There are then eight indications of what CIL regulations may make provision for. I shall not read them all out, but only a couple of them to provide a flavour, including,
“provision as to evidence that is to be taken to be not appropriate”,
and,
“provision as to how evidence is, and as to how evidence is not, to be used”.
They are all like this. Finally there is,
“provision as to how the use of evidence is to inform the preparation of a charging schedule”.
They are the kind of quite extraordinary provisions that ought not to be in legislation.
It is insulting that local authorities cannot make sensible decisions on their own without being given such minute and detailed instructions on exactly what to do. If the Government are to respond to all the criticisms made in this Committee about the detailed regulations that are being imposed, I hope that they might look at this provision as being at best redundant and at worst quite ridiculous.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I wish to speak to my Amendment 148ZZCBA. It proposes to remove subsection (3)(b) of Clause 100, not, as my noble friend might think, in protest at the word “ongoing”, although it is an entirely unnecessary word. Perhaps the clause should refer only to future costs. What costs would be in or out, or out or in, because of “ongoing” being in the clause? The word is totally unnecessary. However, I want to mention this matter because it is a breach in the whole principle of CIL, which should deal with the infrastructure costs that are caused, or need to be contributed to, as a result of the proposed development.
Once you start to allow consideration of future costs, you will allow the whole CIL to be diverted to revenue and you will not get the infrastructure that you are supposed to get, and you will create a large deficit in the provision of infrastructure, because cash-strapped local councils will just hang on as long as they can without building the infrastructure. They will allow the roads to become more crowded and the schools to become fuller until the local authorities have to do something, and spend the CIL money on current costs. This is the sort of budgeting for which we criticised the previous Administration. I am very surprised that we are contemplating it ourselves.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, perhaps I, too, may ask a question about the provision of infrastructure on an “ongoing” basis. I entirely sympathise with the search for elegance, as my noble friend put it. My question is whether providing infrastructure on an ongoing basis means maintaining it. If that was what was meant, these lines could simply read “providing and maintaining infrastructure”. Presumably, therefore, it means something else. Does it mean something else excluding maintenance or something else and maintenance? Perhaps the Minister can aid the Committee in the interpretation of the provision.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is quite a detailed point. It would probably be safer if I wrote to the noble Lord on that.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I would certainly like to take up my noble friend’s offer of conversations between now and Report. I think I heard three different answers to the question posed by my amendment, and I hope that I will end up with one answer by the time we get there.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for a full and indeed very positive, or broadly positive, reply. Certainly at this hour, I should like to read the record and perhaps revert to those who pressed this particular amendment on us to talk it through with them in detail. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for the thrust of his support. These issues around who else the levy should be paid to are certainly important ones, and I would be happy to be included in that correspondence if I may. It is also important that it is done by diktat of the Secretary of State rather than being the local authorities’ decision.
Can I just check: did I hear the Minister correctly when he said that he thinks it is right that the legislation provides for affordable housing to be included within infrastructure—the regulations currently preclude that? Did the Minister say that he was looking to consult on that later this year to change that rule, so affordable housing could be included? Was that what he said?
Localism Bill
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Lucas
I would add that Amendment 128D also gives authorities a complete get-out: they simply say that they are already considering the matter, and that is it.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
This has been a useful debate. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for opening it, but even more grateful to my noble friend Lord True and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for their contributions. They recognised that there are difficulties in seeking to restrict the use of referenda too far. For example, Amendments 126A and 126E would replace the generic reference to,
“action taken to promote or oppose a referendum question leading to a contravention of an enactment or rule of law”.
I suspect that my noble friend Lord Greaves is presenting this as a probing amendment to find out what this is about and what sorts of enactments are considered unlawful. Clearly, no local authority could be obliged to consider through a referendum something which is unlawful. I hope that I can reassure my noble friend that the provision as drafted achieves the result that he requires. The Equality Act 2010, for example, is clearly “an enactment”. The way in which Clause 47(2) is drafted actually caters for all the sorts of things that we would all want to catch and leaves no space for mischievous attempts to get round the protection, such as by phrasing a question cleverly so that it is not “the action requested” that would be unlawful, but the campaign surrounding the referendum.
The second ground that my noble friend mentioned was that the matter was not a local one over which the local authority has influence. My noble friend wanted to know what influence was and what would be the effect of replacing the word “influence” with the word “power”. Amendment 126D removes Clause 47(4)(b), which contains the definition of “influence”. We can appreciate the intention behind these amendments; nobody wants councils to be forced to hold irrelevant referendums and we have seen how the unconstrained power for electors to force parish polls has sometimes been misused by particular lobby groups to force polls on matters that are far removed from the remit of parish councils. However, if my noble friend is asking whether “influence” in Clause 47(4)(b) includes the general power of competence, I would say that indeed it does.
I do not believe that the alternative drafting suggested by noble Lords improves on what is in the Bill. When one considers the impact of Clause 1, one needs to be quite cautious about referring to situations where local authorities have “power” in future. I hope that noble Lords will accept my assurance that the formulation in Clause 47 is framed broadly enough to differentiate the circumstances where there is a manifestly inappropriate attempt to abuse the referendum system from one where there is an issue of local importance in which the local authority has a genuine role. My noble friend has acknowledged that his amendment is unnecessary in the light of the government amendment.
Amendments 126H and 128D seek to expand the fourth ground to give local authorities greater scope to reject a petition. We accept that there is a case for giving councils the flexibility to reject repetitive petitions or requests for referendums, and I hope that my noble friend will accept that the proposals set out in the government amendments that I outlined earlier will meet his concerns. I contend that the arrangements in those amendments offer a better solution to what we all hope will not in fact become a problem in practice. The key to deterring frivolous calls for a referendum is to have in place a robust system for dealing with such things.
I am not sure that my noble friend is right. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, grasped the point that cost is not the proper equation to be taken into account in judging whether a council should be able to refuse a referendum. Something may be extremely important to a local community that may involve little expenditure in terms of its implementation but would have a great impact on people’s lives, and it is perfectly proper that that should be a subject for a referendum if the local authority feels that that is correct. So long as we get the framework right, and I believe that we have, there will be no point in anyone attempting to abuse the system and so they may not bother.
On Amendment 128A again, I agree with my noble friend Lord True. As he has said, that amendment would enable any referendum to be refused. I cannot see that that is the purpose of the legislation, and I hope that my noble friend Lord Greaves will reflect on that.
Amendment 126CA of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, seeks to provide that a local matter will be a matter determined to be so by the local authority. We agree that it is for local authorities to determine whether or not it is appropriate to hold a local referendum. Our provisions give local authorities discretion to do that, subject to certain safeguards that we have discussed today. I am therefore not convinced that this amendment either is necessary or would make any practical difference, given the wording of Clause 47(3), which refers to whether the local authority,
“thinks that the matter to which the referendum question relates is not a local matter”.
So, that phrasing is already there. I hope that, given these assurances, the amendment will be withdrawn.
Lord Lucas
“( ) The fifth ground is that the referendum question includes or relates to planning matters.”
Lord Lucas
My Lords, the Minister has got ahead of us on this with Amendment 128E being debated rather earlier today, but I do not see that Amendment 128E covers the cases that interest me. Perhaps, if I am wrong about that, my noble friend can explain. I am principally interested in the way in which allowing planning matters in under a referendum would make a mess of the provisions for neighbourhood planning. We have extensive provision there for referenda and there should not be a cross-cutting system which allows that process, which is difficult and expensive enough to organise anyway, to be upset by people running competing referendums, or in other ways trying to upset the decision once it has been made.
My noble friend’s amendment looks at the granting of planning permission. I am much more interested in the creation of a neighbourhood plan. Subsection (4)(b) of the government amendment refers to,
“a statutory right of appeal in respect of the substance of the matter or decision”,
on the part of persons adversely affected. In other words, it is saying that this provision does not apply if there is no third-party right of appeal, which I think there is not in a lot of planning permissions. I view the scope of subsection (4) of Amendment 128E as being very limited compared with the sort of exclusions that I would like to see. As all planning is dealt with very satisfactorily in the neighbourhood planning section, it should not be allowed in the local referendum section in any form. I beg to move.
The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, as I explained to the Minister earlier today, I think that Amendment 128E has largely covered my amendment. However, like all amendments, there was a supplementary purpose lurking behind it, which was to try to probe the wider interaction between the facility of referendums generally, especially in their cumulative effect—the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who is not in his place at the moment, touched on that a few minutes ago—and the wider family of the statutory functions of local authorities. It is instructive to note Amendment 128C relating to transport.
I have lost count of the number of times that the burdens on local authorities on the one hand and the need to get at the authentic voice of people on the other have been referred to in this part of the Bill. We are considering the effects for a democratically elected representative body whose functions might not work terribly well, or be effectively discharged, if a referendum is imposed. The Bill cannot be all things to all men. We have to have a balance between vox populi on the one hand and the effective administration of local government on the other. That balance needs to be explained.
I hope that the Minister will be able to elaborate on some of these points, but I certainly think that there is an issue here, which was touched on in earlier debates in Committee. We need to be clear to what extent people within a community should engage with the representative and democratic processes of those who are set up to represent those community interests as opposed to reaching for some bypassing measure in the form of a referendum.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I can say to the noble Lord that the first indication I had about the correct response had a simple two-letter word: no—that it would not be possible. However, I sought further elaboration and gained a slightly more elaborate response, though the short answer is probably correct—that this would not be a subject on which a local referendum could be held.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, that is a pity. I hope that my noble friend, as he is in letter-writing mood, will let the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and me know why this could not be the subject of a referendum. It is one of the main ways in which local authorities choose to beat their residents about the head—one of the main reasons why the residents of Richmond are now happy to have my noble friend Lord True there rather than the previous incumbent. It seems to be very much the sort of thing that local referendums should be about. However, I am sure that my noble friend will be able to give us some comfort on that—or at least point out where in the Bill is the clause that stops us having referendums on this issue, so that we can take it out on Report.
As to what we were supposed to be talking about, I am very grateful to my noble friend for offering to write. It is a very complicated area and not one where I profess any expertise: I was mainly concerned that we were producing something that would cut across the bit of the Bill which really interests me, namely neighbourhood planning and how it works. My noble friend and other noble Lords—including my noble friend Lord True—have raised many subjects to which I will be very interested to read the answers. My particular worry is that proposed new subsection (4)(b)(i) in Amendment 128E seems to suggest that this is a matter in which injured and adversely affected persons have a right of appeal. In the case of most planning applications, one can consider oneself adversely affected if one has to look at an ugly monstrosity across the street, yet one does not have the right to appeal because there is no third-party right of appeal. I am concerned that the wording of the amendment does not exempt most planning applications, but I am sure that the Minister will cover that in his reply.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, U-turns are allowed nowadays in politics, are they not? I will correct an answer that I gave. I misread the answer that I was given to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, about a referendum. Councils could not refuse to hold a referendum on car-parking charges: the referendum would need to be held.
Lord Lucas
I want to just stand here and feel happy for a bit, but I will beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill [HL]
Lord Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am a paid board member of Transport for London, which is a public body constituted under the Greater London Authority Act 1999. This is a Private Bill promoted by TfL. No petitions were deposited against the Bill and it was considered by an Unopposed Bill Committee on 11 November 2008, when it was amended and permitted to pass to the next stage.
The purpose of the Bill is to provide Transport for London with additional powers where TfL has made a toll order under the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 that would supplement the enforcement powers under the toll order. At present, TfL can seek authority to charge tolls by means of a New Roads and Street Works Act toll order, but the powers in the 1991 Act for the collection and enforcement of the tolls would not enable TfL to have recourse to sophisticated modern mechanisms that allow traffic to flow freely and are similar to those used to collect and enforce charges under the central London congestion charging scheme. Those mechanisms include giving motorists options to pay through the internet, by telephone or by text and to use automatic number plate recognition technology, and imposing escalating penalty charges for non-payment instead of criminal penalties.
In cases in which TfL has been authorised to charge tolls under a toll order, the Bill will enable TfL to make a supplemental order that makes provision for the operation and enforcement of the toll order. These powers to make supplemental orders are similar to those already conferred on TfL in respect of road user charging schemes under Schedule 23 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999, of which the best known is the congestion charging scheme. It is intended that the enforcement regime to be provided in a supplemental toll provisions order will be similar to the tried and tested regime currently operating in respect of congestion charging that is, of course, very familiar to all Londoners. Most importantly, that regime will be subject to the same safeguards. The principle is that motorists will be able to pay the tolls in exactly the same way as the congestion charge and will be subject to the same sanctions for non-payment with the same safeguards.
In the Second Reading debate on the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised a number of points of concern. I am pleased to report to your Lordships’ House that the Bill was amended in Committee in response to his points as well as to meet other points raised by the Minister. In particular, the powers to immobilise and remove vehicles were removed from the Bill and reliance is instead being placed on the existing powers in the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2008, which were subjected to very careful scrutiny during the Bill’s passage through this House. The Bill has also been amended to make it clear that the power to make provision in a supplemental toll order to enter vehicles and seize articles can be exercised only by a constable or a person authorised by TfL in the presence of a constable. These safeguards are the same as those that apply to congestion charging. TfL had always intended that these safeguards would apply, but they are now expressly provided for in the Bill in response to assurances given to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, during the debate on Second Reading.
Transport for London first became aware of the need to modernise the enforcement powers for a toll order made under the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 in the context of the promotion of the Thames Gateway Bridge project. It was proposed that the new bridge would be financed partly by means of tolls collected under such a toll order, and the Bill was needed for the project. However, it was also recognised that the Thames Gateway Bridge project was just one example and that there would be other cases in which TfL might wish to seek tolling powers in respect of which additional powers of enforcement would be needed. The Bill was therefore deliberately drafted in general terms so that all such cases would be covered.
As was explained to the Unopposed Bills Committee, the new mayor had a few days earlier, on 6 November 2008, released Transport for London’s 10-year business plan. Under that plan, it was determined that Transport for London would not pursue the Thames Gateway Bridge project, given the pressures on funding and concerns over local traffic impacts. Transport for London was tasked with undertaking a wider study, together with other parties, to assess the transport and land use needs of the London Thames Gateway, including undertaking an assessment of options for a new east London river crossing.
Transport for London has in consultation with local boroughs and others therefore undertaken a review of river crossing options in the area east of Tower Bridge up to the existing Dartford Crossing. The review has highlighted that the problems experienced in east London through the lack of river crossings mean that further crossings are warranted, and has identified that it is likely that a package of solutions is required, including the construction of a bridge or tunnel at Silvertown.
The Mayor's Transport Strategy, which was issued on 10 May 2010, states that the mayor, through Transport for London, will take forward a package of solutions in respect of east London river crossings, including a new fixed line at Silvertown. Transport for London is currently considering the development of the package. Consideration is being given to the tolling of new crossings to help to finance their construction. Any toll order made under the 1991 Act would require the enforcement powers contained in the Bill.
The Bill will assist Transport for London in financing the construction and operation of this important new infrastructure in London. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for so eloquently moving the Motion that the Bill do now pass and for any influence that she might have had in securing the amendments that she described. I am quite content with the Bill as it is now, partly because TfL is a much more benign institution under current management than it was. Where it finds levels of misbehaviour, it seems interested not in immediately slapping down fines but in exploring the reasons for it, amending signage and handing out warning notices beforehand. I find it a civilised and easier-to-deal-with institution these days. I am also comforted by the level to which the Secretary of State will be involved in granting TfL any substantial powers under the Bill. I thank the noble Baroness and Transport for London, and wish this Bill good luck.
Baroness Kramer
I shall be brief in my comments on the Bill. I was a member of the board of Transport for London when the congestion charge was brought in and chaired all the public meetings on that issue. I have been an open opponent of the Thames Gateway Bridge, so am very glad that that project has been scuttled.
I should like to ask two questions about the Bill, just by way of seeking confirmation. Do all the usual processes of planning, consultation and approval remain in place, even though this mechanism provides the funding for any new river crossing that might be tolled? Secondly, could this framework apply to other projects carried out by Transport for London? For example—since we have had many discussions on air quality—if there were to be a low-emissions zone and it was decided to toll cars that did not meet the relevant emissions standard as they entered the zone, could this framework again be used for that purpose? It is a framework that London might turn to, particularly at the time of the Olympics. Although I seek confirmation on those matters, I am very supportive of the Bill.