Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the sentiments in the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. Briefly, I repeat that of course we believe that it would have been hugely preferable for the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive to be dealing with these issues today. As a strong believer in devolution, I always believe that these issues should be dealt with by the politicians closest to those who are involved. Indeed, I was speaking earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and confessing that it is difficult for people who are not from Northern Ireland to understand some of the sentiments and the passions that stem from this Bill.

As your Lordships’ Constitution Committee said in its brief report this week, it would of course be preferable for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly to have been dealing with these issues, but none the less, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, New Decade, New Approach was agreed by the majority—not all—of the parties in Northern Ireland. That was over two years ago and it is now extremely important that we make progress on these issues of identity and language.

The amendments in this group are probing amendments and are primarily about ensuring that the rights of others are respected and that promotion of one cultural and linguistic diversity does not lead to prejudices against the other. It is important that the “sensitivities” of others are not interpreted as encompassing prejudice or intolerance to another’s national or cultural identity. It is also important that proper consideration is given to any potential unintended consequences of the Bill. The word “sensitivities” risks being interpreted subjectively. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, suggested at Second Reading, it might be preferable to align the qualifications with the international standards set out in the European Convention on Human Rights.

I have added my name to Amendments 5 and 6, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, are both probing amendments. I will concentrate my remaining on Amendment 6, which highlights the importance of remembering other languages used in Northern Ireland, including all spoken languages and sign language. It is important that the measures in the Bill do not lead to exclusion of the new communities in Northern Ireland, who do not have any particular affinity to either Irish or Ulster Scots. I am thinking of the fairly extensive Polish, Lithuanian and other eastern and central European communities, as well as the Chinese community, particularly in Belfast and Dungannon.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

The noble Lord is from Dungannon, I understand. No? Forgive me.

The Belfast/Good Friday agreement made reference to

“the importance of respect, understanding and tolerance in relation to linguistic diversity, including … the languages of the various ethnic communities, all of which are part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland.”

Can the Minister say whether thought has been given to developing a comprehensive and needs-based language strategy, which includes all the other languages used within Northern Ireland, including sign language?

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[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, very briefly, we are talking about equality and respect, but are we also talking about equality and respect for both regional and minority languages? I employ around 200 people across Northern Ireland. A few speak Lithuanian, a few speak Polish, but I am not aware of any who speak Irish. It is very important that we do not assist or encourage those who want to politicise the issue of the Irish language. I believe that there must be great respect for the Irish minority language in Northern Ireland, and I do not think that it is helped by those who try to politicise it. I therefore ask the Minister to make it clear that this legislation will not discriminate against minority languages and favour regional languages.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Amendment 18 in this group would amend the duty on public authorities to one of compliance with best practice Irish language standards from one of due regard. This proposal is not faithful to the drafting of NDNA, which states that one function of the Irish language commissioner is to consider

“complaints where a public authority has failed to have due regard to those standards.”

By implication, the duty on public authorities is not one of compliance but of due regard; that distinction must be respected. A duty for compliance would potentially require public authorities to adhere to specific guidance despite their being cogent reasons for not doing so. It is unclear whether this approach would lead to public authorities becoming legally liable for not acting on a consideration of competing human rights. A due regard duty is not a loose concept, as this amendment seems to imply. It means that a person under the duty is not free to disregard but must consider all relevant considerations.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend, who makes a very powerful point. I agree with him entirely on those matters. The national flag—the union flag—is the flag of Northern Ireland. There is absolutely nothing in this legislation that will undermine the position of the union flag or force anybody to fly an Irish tricolour—or any other flag, for that matter—alongside it.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

I have very bad hearing, and I did not hear whether the noble Lord used the Sinn Féin term of “north of Ireland” or “Northern Ireland”. Which was it?

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I was talking about Northern Ireland, which is the constitutional phrase for the six counties which make up—

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

That is not the answer to my question.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I think we should probably move on. In summary, the provisions of the Bill—

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I must say, I take a similar view to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. For three years, when the Assembly was closed following Sinn Féin’s withdrawal in 2017, the noble Viscount, when he was answering at the Dispatch Box, would say, “Well, because of the Sewel convention, we cannot do this; it is a devolved matter. The Northern Ireland Office cannot do that”. We now seem to have moved. We do not hear the Sewel convention mentioned very much around this place. We seem to have a situation now where, effectively, we are fireproofing bits of legislation against disagreements even though they may be legitimately expressed and exercised by Ministers in Northern Ireland.

The whole mechanism that was agreed in 1998 is not what many of us would ultimately like, but the concept of a mutual veto is there for a purpose. We would not have devolution, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, knows, if people did not feel a sense that they each had a hand on the steering wheel. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, mentioned, some of the people with whom we have shared power are not necessarily dinner companions. Once you take away the exercise of a veto, you take away a part of the settlement.

I know that colleagues here did not agree with it in 1998; I am well aware of that, and I understand the rationale for it, but perhaps they now understand our rationale for not agreeing with New Decade, New Approach. As far as I can see, all people would have to do is not agree, and all that those who would like to see a particular measure would have to do is sit on their hands and wait for the Secretary of State to overrule. If we get into that, Sewel is out the window and you start to decay the whole process; we need to take very great care that we do not undermine it. It is an awkward, difficult and complicated system because, if you know that you do not have to agree with the person across from you, the temptation is to wait it out until the Secretary of State intervenes and takes your side.

For a brief period, I held the office at the OFMDFM. I know how complicated this is. The first week I held the office, I and the Deputy First Minister could not agree on the notepaper; as a consequence, the department could not send a letter out for a week until we agreed. We agreed because we had to, and we got a compromise. However, if I had known that I could sit it out and that the Secretary of State would come over and take my side, I would have been under no obligation to agree.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

He would not have taken your side.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Or the other side. Whichever—the point is still valid. I am just saying that, if you throw out or undermine the concept that people have to agree, however difficult it is, for one thing, the temptation is that it will spread. That will be my only contribution.

Northern Ireland Political Situation

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his position and thank him for repeating the Statement on Northern Ireland. I am particularly pleased at his optimism that a power-sharing Executive is still achievable in Northern Ireland, because that is what we negotiated in the Belfast agreement.

Living near the border and knowing Sinn Fein inside out as I do, I ask the Minister whether he realises that one of the joys for Sinn Fein is to bash the British. He will understand that minority Governments are unstable institutions, and we have a minority Government in southern Ireland depending on Fianna Fail support. We are likely to have an election in southern Ireland, and it would certainly be helpful to Sinn Fein if it could continue to bash the British from now until that election takes place. So the Minister’s optimism may be misplaced.

In welcoming the new Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Ireland—after all, it is a foreign country with a Foreign Minister—does the Minister realise that when we negotiated the Belfast agreement, the then Foreign Minister of the Republic, David Andrews, was expelled and excluded from all strand one talks? Does he now recognise that last week on the front pages of daily papers in both the Republic and Northern Ireland there was much criticism of the new Foreign Minister of the Republic for interfering in the internal affairs of Northern Ireland, and that that has upset a lot of people across Northern Ireland and is particularly unhelpful? Lastly, will the Minister confirm that, although there are many options if we do not have an Executive, one of the options is still direct rule?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind words of welcome. I am indeed optimistic, but then it could perhaps be pointed out that I am new to the job so I do not know whether that is just an occupational hazard.

Discussions are going forward involving all three strands of the Belfast agreement. Discussions have been undertaken between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach and between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Foreign Minister of Ireland, and it is appropriate that they should as provided for in the Belfast agreement. As I say, we are entering a crucial stage. It is important that we look forward rather than back. I have a lot to learn but I think looking forward is probably a good idea in Northern Ireland, and I think it is what people are focused on.

Northern Ireland: Economy

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I should like to fill the gap—I was not aware of this debate until today, unfortunately. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on having this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, says, the great news is that we are discussing the economy of Northern Ireland and not the security situation.

I declare an interest as chairman of the largest newspaper group in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, employing some 300 people, so I know something of the problems of business in both parts of that island. I am delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Black, mentioning the Tyrone Courier and certainly he will be well reported in the Tyrone Courier next week because it is the largest weekly newspaper in Northern Ireland. One thing I disagree with him about is that he says the small papers are in trouble. No way—small papers are succeeding. We have the largest circulation in Northern Ireland, with 75,000; the big papers, like the Belfast Telegraph, are down to 50,000. The weekly papers are succeeding; the daily papers are in decline right throughout the United Kingdom—so be careful at the Telegraph!

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said that devolution was successful. I was deputy leader of the Ulster Unionist Party at that time with the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Trimble. We negotiated the Belfast agreement. To say it is successful is going a bit far. I am more inclined to agree with the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in his speech in Manchester a few weeks ago when he said it is getting to the time when they have got to make decisions. People in Northern Ireland are losing respect for the Northern Ireland Assembly, and if it collapses then the gap is filled by terrorism yet again. It is important that decisions are made.

Look at the decisions that have been missed. We mentioned golf; the great international football pitch—no decision; the extension of Belfast City Airport—no decision. The replacement of the 11-plus—abolished; now we have three 11-pluses.

[Lord Empey]

Five.

[Lord Kilclooney]

Well, there is one for integrated schools, one for Roman Catholic schools and one for state voluntary schools, which is amazing. On John Lewis’s planning application at Lisburn, there is no decision. There are no decisions being made and sooner or later the public in Northern Ireland will catch on, which will be very bad news there. As far as devolution is concerned, we should place on record our appreciation of the work of Senator George Mitchell, who some of us were with on Monday evening at King's College, and our thanks to the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Tony Blair. He is criticised very much these days in the media but we should place on record our appreciation of the time and effort he gave to bring devolution.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said that GB taxpayers are subsidising Northern Ireland. He forgot to mention places called Scotland and Wales, and other parts of England. They are getting subsidised as well. We are actually quite successful now. We are not the poorest part of the United Kingdom any longer. Wales is—check the figures. Our unemployment in Northern Ireland is now less than the UK average. We have statistics to show that Northern Ireland is progressing and we should not always be on the back foot, trying to say that things are bad there.

I come to the issue of corporation tax. I have always been critical of the Northern Ireland Secretary of State in his campaign to have a lower level of corporation tax in Northern Ireland. If you look at the PwC accountants’ report on what attracts an investment, corporation tax is number 10 in the priorities —not number one but number 10. I know that from my experience in business in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Other things come into account: national insurance contributions; other forms of taxation; education—there was some criticism of that this evening—and labour costs. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, mentioned Google but he did not happen to mention Dell, which left Limerick in the Republic of Ireland. Why? Was it the 12.5 per cent corporation tax? It stayed in the European Union and went to Poland, with its 19 per cent corporation tax, because that tax is not the main factor in deciding how you develop a business. There are many other issues: read the papers tomorrow and see what Aviva has announced in the Republic of Ireland today.

I am going to be told that my time is up. All I can say in closing is that, as a Unionist, I believe in equality of services, equality of taxation and equality of responsibilities.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on securing this splendid and important debate. I am grateful to your Lordships for the quality of their contributions. Noble Lords have travelled down memory lane but in so doing have provided tremendous insight into the journeys and experiences that have ultimately brought them to this House. It is a privilege to listen to so many wonderful contributions.

The coalition Government’s commitment to rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy is one of the key objectives we share with the Northern Ireland Executive. The recent announcement by the Chancellor that air passenger duty in Northern Ireland would be reduced and then ultimately devolved to the Assembly shows that we are prepared to act decisively and creatively in order to keep the economy moving. I believe we all agree that the Northern Ireland economy is overreliant on public sector spending. The situation is understandable—one of the sad legacies of the Troubles is that the economy stagnated in Northern Ireland while it grew elsewhere. The support of the public sector was necessary, but both now and in the longer term relying on those levels of public spending is unsustainable.

The Northern Ireland Executive and Invest Northern Ireland have had some notable successes in attracting investment in recent years, with new entrants to the Northern Ireland market such as the New York Stock Exchange and Citigroup and the expansion of existing businesses such as PricewaterhouseCoopers—all creating jobs which add value to the Northern Ireland economy. However, these successes are not enough. Northern Ireland still has some way to go and, for that reason, the Treasury consultation paper on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy set out some radical proposals for discussion.

The business community has made the case that a reduction in corporation tax to a level similar to that in Ireland would kick-start inward investment and growth, sending a resounding message that Northern Ireland was open for business. Those responsible for attracting inward investment in the Republic are adamant about the role their business tax regime has played in ensuring that even during the global economic downturn Ireland remains at or near the top of the global rankings for attracting inward investment and jobs. The head of the Irish economic development agency has said that the 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate is the “cornerstone” of Irish industrial policy.

However, we need to be cautious—as has been repeated here—because low corporation tax is not a silver bullet. Infrastructure, education, training and the planning regime all play a key role, too. The Exchequer Secretary has written to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister about the creation of a working group to further examine issues raised during the consultation period. The work of that group will be vital in gaining deeper insight into the potential costs, benefits and administrative hurdles associated with a tax reduction. We must not try to pre-empt the outworkings of that process. No decisions have yet been made, but we all look forward to the insight that the ministerial group will give to the issue.

I will now endeavour to pick up the points raised during the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, referred to the working group and hoped that I would add something on it. The noble Baroness also referred to it. It is only in recent days that the invitation was put to the Northern Ireland Executive asking them to nominate Ministers to serve on a group. Their decision was to come up with four Ministers—the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, and the two Ministers responsible for finance and for trade and industry. The point was made about business as usual and getting on with life in the way in which others would. The four Ministers have been put up. The Executive were asked, “Who would you like to serve on the group?”. It was not even asked of them, “How many would you like? Who would be the appropriate people?”. The Executive have chosen those four people because of their function. They will, of course, be able to report back to the Northern Ireland Executive. Three parties who also have jobs in the Executive are not among those four people. In effect, it is the people themselves on that Executive who have come up with the four people who they think are right to serve on that group.

[Lord Kilclooney]

As to the cost of reducing corporation tax in Northern Ireland, the Chancellor of the Exchequer during his most recent visit to Northern Ireland said that reducing the tax could mean a reduction in the block grant of £400 million. This committee will now consider what would be the cost of the tax reduction. Is it not surprising that various businesses and organisations supported the reduction of corporation tax without even knowing how much it was going to cost the people of Northern Ireland?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

There is work to be done, which is why the committee has been set up to look at the detail of how this would work. Think about this: in this jurisdiction, we have income tax rates of 20 per cent and 40 per cent, and 50 per cent for people earning in excess of £150,000. In the Republic, the tax rates are 21 per cent and 40 per cent. In this jurisdiction, we have VAT of 20 per cent. In the Republic it is 21 per cent. It is even stevens.

On corporation tax, our rate is at 26 per cent, being reduced to 23 per cent, but in the Republic it is at 12.5 per cent. The Republic has held discussions with Europe as to how to endeavour to solve its troubles. Of course, it was under great pressure not to have that low rate of corporation tax. I find it instructive that the Republic has fought tooth and nail to retain a 12.5 per cent rate. I turn to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who has been moving on this issue. The Republic’s clear view that that 12.5 per cent rate has been so important concentrates the mind. I understand that.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked whether the Northern Ireland Executive are up to the job. It is not for me to take a view on whether people are up to the job. They have been elected and, under the system there, various people have executive roles. I am led to believe that we will not have to wait that much longer for a programme for government. On rebalancing the economy, the discussions are not a done deal, but if the rebalancing on corporation tax can take place, that may well energise them to look at other areas where the Executive can do what they can do to rebalance the economy.

Five sets of people are involved: much depends on the devolved Government, what they can do and the powers that they have, including with what is clearly a well-thought-of organisation, Invest Northern Ireland; there is also what this Government can do, although because of devolution that is somewhat limited—that is one reason why this idea has come from the Secretary of State; there is the involvement of Europe; there is the use of the cross-border entities, particularly on tourism; and, very importantly, there is the inventiveness of the private sector itself, which is a point that has already been made by several noble Lords.

I was very impressed by the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood. I am always impressed by that which I do not expect and do not know about which arises in debates in this House. On culture, the city of Derry/Londonderry will be the city of culture in 2013. Bearing in mind the detail of what the noble Lord had to say, I felt that he could well be placed as a consultant to the Northern Ireland Executive on cultural matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to food and was the one person who said that this was not about bother in Northern Ireland but about the economy of Northern Ireland. It is not for the UK Government to say where Invest Northern Ireland’s priorities ought to be. The noble Lord makes the very valid point that for so many reasons it is clearly an area that should be looked at as a possibility for investment. Of course, it would be for the Northern Ireland Executive to take that view.

I am concerned about the time. My time is up. If there are any specifics and anything that I have been asked about to which I have not responded, I will endeavour to do that. It has been a splendid debate on the possibilities of what can be done, based on the rebalancing report and splendid introduction made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. I hope and believe that so many of the contributions will be noted by Her Majesty’s Government as we go forward.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot give any specific dates or times. Civil servants have already talked to people in the human rights fraternity in Northern Ireland, and the next job is to get involved with the Assembly and to get things moving. I said on the previous occasion, and I repeat now, that with the new Assembly there is an opportunity to break into this issue, which I understand is of long standing. It is important that we move forward.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that, when we negotiated the Belfast agreement, we had it specifically written into the agreement that there would be progress on human rights not only in Northern Ireland but in the Republic of Ireland? When will the Government make representations to Dublin to have the obligations under the Belfast agreement honoured after 13 years?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot answer for the Government of Ireland. However, as I indicated on the previous occasion that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, raised this question, I wrote to the Government of Ireland to let them know of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. Your Lordships will note that, regardless of there being, in the noble Lord’s words, no progress, an Irish Human Rights Commission has been set up and is very busy in its work.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

If you want the answer you can have it—the Prime Minister announced that a group of people would be put together for a human rights Act for Britain. Therefore, the Belfast agreement has to embrace those other three factors.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Belfast agreement brought benefits to the peoples of both states in the island of Ireland? Can he recall that there were obligations on the Dublin Government in that agreement to create a human rights commission, to ratify the Council of Europe’s convention on national minorities, and to legislate for employment equality and for respect of the different traditions in the island? Can he confirm whether any of those four requirements have been honoured yet by the Dublin Government? For those that have not been honoured, will he make representations to the new Government elected in the south of Ireland a few weeks ago?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as I indicated earlier, I will do my best to speak for this Government. It is someone else’s job to speak for the Government of Ireland. However, in another coalition agreement, between Fine Gael and Labour in the south, there is one line that the Belfast agreement and the St Andrews agreement “shall be honoured”. If that is in their coalition agreement, it applies to them as it does here, and I will see to it that I write accordingly.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing forward these orders and for allowing your Lordships the time to debate them today. Northern Ireland has made extraordinary progress in the past few years. With the support of all parties and all communities, Northern Ireland has seen political developments which have helped to bring it out of the dark days of the violence of the Troubles. Enormous efforts have been made and for the first time in a generation the majority of people in Northern Ireland can live peaceful lives, which is a tribute to many people in the Chamber today and to all our parties on working together. However, we cannot forget that the situation is fragile. Political stability is still relatively new and we must ensure that proposals to change the way in which the electoral situation works in Northern Ireland do not damage this stability.

These orders contain relatively technical issues. We understand that they are designed to facilitate the smooth running of the elections due to be held in Northern Ireland in May 2011, but of course they deserve proper scrutiny. We are particularly keen to ensure that the Government are taking all measures that they can to prevent difficulties in the conduct of these elections. We are concerned that any changes to the rules could cause confusion. The potential for confusion in Northern Ireland on 5 May 2011 is substantial. Two elections are already scheduled for this day; that is, the local council elections and a poll for seats to the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Minister acknowledged, the Government plan to add to these a referendum vote on adopting the alternative vote for elections to the House of Commons.

These orders, together with the schedules to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill before your Lordships’ House and due to receive the forensic scrutiny that it deserves, facilitate the combination of the three polls on 5 May. Will the Minister assuage the worries of many Members on these Benches and, I suspect, across the House that holding so many polls on one day will lead to confusion? Is the Minister confident that all the rules will be in place in sufficient time in advance of the May polls? It is vital that the people of Northern Ireland get the maximum amount of information to ensure that they are fully prepared for what will be an unprecedented voting day next May. Will the Minister assure the House that this will happen?

We on these Benches are concerned that any undue confusion has the potential to be particularly damaging to the embryonic political settlement in Northern Ireland, and this cannot be put at risk. I acknowledge the Minister’s assurance that he is working with the Electoral Commission and that everything will be in place. But the task is enormous and I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will keep in contact with people in Northern Ireland to ensure that everything is properly in place, and that the Government will do everything that they can to assist if and when necessary.

The Government’s programme of constitutional reform would see boundaries redrawn and three fewer MPs available to serve the people of Northern Ireland. This will have consequential effects on the nature of representation in the Assembly. It is possible that this will result in there being 18 fewer MLAs. What might the effects of this be on the current balance in the Assembly? Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will give proper consideration to not disrupting the Assembly balance, and will he bring forward proposals to ensure that? If this does not happen, we fear another jolt to the stability achieved in Northern Ireland.

If the Bill for fixed-term Parliaments is passed as drafted, in 2015 we will have council elections, general elections and Assembly elections on the same day. The three elections will all be held using different, possibly very different, electoral systems. Furthermore, if the coalition Government get their way with their plans to dramatically redesign the constituency map of the United Kingdom, these elections will take place under new boundaries as well. This will mean the height of complication.

The Minister has told us that these orders are intended to smooth the running of elections in Northern Ireland. Taken together with the Government’s wider reform plans, we are deeply concerned that the result will be quite the opposite.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing these two orders. They take me back 40 years, to almost the middle of the last century, to when I was the Minister at Home Affairs responsible for elections in Northern Ireland. At the time, we had irregularities in elections in Northern Ireland. Some people would say, “Vote early and vote often. It works well”. But that does not exist today, far from it. I can well recall standing in an election in South Tyrone as a Member of Parliament at the time. We noticed a lot of applications for postal votes all going to an address in the Republic of Ireland. We were very worried about this because a nationalist candidate had done it. I said that there was only one answer, and that was to take the entire election team to the Republic of Ireland to be photographed in front of the house that was getting all those postal votes, and to get the photograph into all the media. We did that. We invaded the Republic, had a photograph taken of us with our rosettes, and the publicity meant that the postal votes were never exercised. I must say that I am glad to see in one of the orders before us today that postal votes will be delivered only to the address on the electoral register. That abuse is finally going to be ended.

I can say with no embarrassment whatever that today Northern Ireland has the best postal voting controls in the United Kingdom. It is now areas in England, such as Birmingham, where cheating is taking place. So far as the electoral laws in Northern Ireland are concerned, there are many that could now be extended and put into practice in the United Kingdom. This should be looked at by the electoral authorities in Great Britain.

The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland and his staff are to be congratulated on the control and efficiency of elections today. We are now debating the Assembly elections to be held on 5 May 2011, and as the noble Baroness has just said, there may be a third vote in the form of a referendum arising from the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. That would mean three elections in one day. Incidentally, that Bill will mean fewer Members of Parliament in another place, and since the Northern Ireland Assembly has six MLAs for each constituency, it would suggest that there are going to be fewer MLAs in Northern Ireland as well. I do not know whether the Minister will wish to comment on that because it strays slightly from the two orders before the House.

We are probably going to have three elections on the same day, and that will be slightly confusing. It will take a lot more time for a voter to exercise three separate ballots in the polling station. Will there be three separate ballot boxes in the polling station, and will the three ballot papers be of different colours, although I hope not green, white and orange?

I note that the notices about the elections can be reproduced in languages other than English. Of course, Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Northern Ireland after English, but I presume that this measure is also intended for the large number of European citizens who have come to live in Northern Ireland, especially Polish, Lithuanian and Portuguese people. Will the decision to use these languages—Chinese, Portuguese and so on—be left to the local returning officer or will it cover the whole of Northern Ireland?

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and will endeavour to respond to the points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, paid tribute to what has been going on in Northern Ireland in recent times. We are all much happier about matters there than we were some years ago. I understand the fragility that she speaks about, but these elections, certainly as all three will be on the one day, are an opportunity for a democratic moment in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Smith talked about the sophisticated electorate. There are clear advantages to having the three polls on one day. It is more convenient for voters and, indeed, in these difficult times, it will lead to financial savings because of the shared resources. There will be unique logistical challenges, but I am satisfied that the practical risk can be managed properly. I have asked officials to continue to liaise closely with the Chief Electoral Officer and the Electoral Commission to ensure the early resolution of potential problems. The commission believes, certainly at the moment, that the preparations are on track.

The Government have considered the impact of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on the composition of the Assembly. We will not dictate the size of the Assembly; that is for the Assembly to consider. When it has considered this issue, we have committed to legislating to give effect to its wishes regarding its size.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to different electoral systems. If the AV Bill and the referendum are carried, it is certain that in all elections in Northern Ireland at any rate the elector will not face confusion because every ballot paper will be marked “1, 2, 3, 4” for them to mark their preferences.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to his time in government in Northern Ireland and the “vote early, vote often” regimes. I think that he sees the point of having three elections on one day.

The position of the boxes will be a matter for the electoral returning officers. The ballot papers will be different colours so that there is no confusion, but it is up to the returning officers in Northern Ireland whether there is one box or three. I know from my experience that, if there are three boxes, all three will have to be emptied at once because there may well be ballot papers in the wrong box. It is important to give that proper consideration, but it is a matter for the Chief Electoral Officer. It may be simpler to have the one box rather than three, but that is for him or her to decide.

The noble Lord referred to advertising. Public awareness of the forthcoming elections is a matter for the Electoral Commission. I will draw to its attention the noble Lord’s comments about the validity of advertising in local newspapers. The Chief Electoral Officer is required to publish the draft polling station scheme and place a notice in local newspapers to let electors know that it is subject to consultation. This information is also published on websites.

The decision on what languages to use in the publications will be made by the Chief Electoral Officer rather than at a district level.

[Lord Kilclooney]

Northern Ireland has seen the arrival of thousands upon thousands of Europeans. People from one country go to one town and people from another country go to another—it is not spread evenly across Northern Ireland. For example, you get lots of Portuguese in Dungannon, while in Armagh there are lots of Poles. We need to be careful which language we select in which area. We just cannot have it generally across the whole of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am grateful for that comment. Clearly, it will be up to the Chief Electoral Officer, and he or she will be able to decide whether to use the languages across Northern Ireland or whether to be selective in where to use them. I will make certain that the Chief Electoral Officer is aware of that concern.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to polling agents. I understand that polling agents are used in Northern Ireland; they can, of course, be used at every election in the UK, but it has been the tendency not to use them. Certainly in my part of the world polling agents have not been used, but tellers have been. Tellers are always outside the polling station, not inside. I understand that there is concern about polling agents but some effort is being made to ensure consistency with Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Polling agents are available to be used in the rest of the UK.

The noble Lord also referred to consultation. I will have to respond to him later about that; I did not quite catch his concern and I do not have a note on it. However, I heard the comment about stalemate as far as local government is concerned, which other speakers also mentioned.

I was grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, who, in effect, welcomed the orders. He will understand that, as we all know, it is harder to obtain a postal vote in Northern Ireland. Indeed, although there is some easing because of social workers being able to sign and so on, it is still very difficult to get a postal vote, compared to what happens in England, where it is offered freely.

The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the nominated members. Clearly, this is a good reason why we cannot go on for ever saying, “They might revise local government so let’s just hang on and give them another year”. If 32 out of 51 members are nominated by political parties and have in no way been chosen by the electorate at large, it is a valid point. It makes the case that there should be an election for local government according to the present wards and boundaries, in the absence of reform.

I am glad to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, who understands that these orders are a positive way forward. The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, referred to the patch on the wound, which became a plaster when he finished. I understand and accept the point about the local government review, but this is devolution. If we devolve and Northern Ireland is given the powers, it must make its own way with local government. Once we have allowed devolution and taken the view that this is the position, it is up to those people and, indeed, people like the noble Lord and others who have influence in Northern Ireland to make the case for change. However, it is their decision; you cannot have devolution and then take it back.

Local government is a matter for the Executive. We still hope that agreement can be reached but it clearly will not be reached this side of the local government elections, which we hope will be on 5 May 2011. I trust that this is a fair response to the points that have been made and I hope that these orders can now be agreed.