Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

Finally, aside from the merits of the general principle, it is likely that the proposal to place a duty on public bodies to develop language schemes would incur additional cost to the public purse. I will stop there.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to associate myself with those noble Lords who are sad that this is not being debated in the Assembly. Let me say how sad I am that it is not recognised by some in Northern Ireland that it is their responsibility to be part of that Assembly and that that is the deal. It is a deal that the rest of the United Kingdom, a little bit of which I hope to be able to speak for in this Committee, wants to hold them to instead of being held by them.

Secondly, I opposed the Government’s successful attempt to impose on Northern Ireland changes that were opposed by both communities. I thought that it was wrong. It is not subsidiarity and we should not have done it. However, in this case, we are having to discuss something that has been agreed in principle and which we must carry through. This is therefore a different circumstance, which is why we are doing this. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness who last spoke from the Opposition Bench.

I say to my noble friend that the reference to the European Court of Human Rights is important. It is extremely important that we tie this into the international agreements that we have. If I may say this to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, I do not much mind what Mr Raab has said. The truth is that we signed up to it—we more or less invented it—and we did so to make sure that everybody stood to the same standards in this area. If ever there were a case for making sure that we insist on the standards enforced by the European Court of Human Rights, this certainly is it.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, I deeply regret that this issue is being dealt with here. It is obvious from the first quarter of an hour of debate, from the many local issues that have arisen, that local MLAs would understand the nuances far better. It is a crying shame that this is not being dealt with there.

I have one point to make to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. My party did not agree to New Decade, New Approach. In fact, I deeply regret a lot of the proceedings that led up to it and a lot of what is included in it because I fear that this Bill has within it the seeds of a grievance factory, where it is going to be very difficult to make everybody feel that their particularly identity is being represented. Indeed, it may be a shock to many that people do not go round the place wondering who they are each day; it is not something at the top of people’s agenda when they cannot even put money in the meter to keep their lights on. We must understand that it is not the sort of thing that is necessarily top of people’s agenda.

We must avoid two things. First, because this Bill is not subject to debate in the Assembly where implementation of it would take place, this House cannot amend it —because, if the Assembly is not there, the only process is here, and therefore we should not be afraid to do that. Secondly, and equally, we must be wary of imposing conditions that prove to be difficult for the Assembly.

I think there is some merit in what is suggested in Amendment 1. I take the point about other languages, but one has to be careful about who is included in that and who is not. Within the past 36 months, we have had the arrival on our shores of people from varying backgrounds—from Syria and Afghanistan—we have had a significant indigenous Chinese population for as long as I can remember, and we have had people coming from eastern Europe as part of the European Union for many years, who have built up considerable numbers, particularly in the past 15 years or so. So who is included in that and who is not is very difficult. I ask colleagues to bear those points in mind.

My noble friend Lord Morrow makes a valid point about the boundaries where one public body ends and another begins. There could be quite a lot of overreach and overstretch there. If an office dealing with identity issues becomes specifically involved in rights and equality, there is some overlap, but they would be two quite distinct areas, and we must take great care that we do not create a scrambled egg of bodies all competing about where the boundaries of their activities begin and end. I urge a bit of caution from the Minister in that regard.

Bearing in mind that it is a matter of very deep regret that we have to do this, I suggest that the one thing that we try to avoid is making things worse by confusing the role of one public body with another. I do not think it was ever the intention of the negotiators of New Decade, New Approach that the existing equalities and human rights commissions would be subject to override in this area. In the event that somebody feels that their human right has been overruled, they still have the opportunity to have their case taken up by those bodies. The right to do that is not conflicted in any way by anything in this, but we must avoid confusion. The existing lines are relatively clear, and I think we should adhere to them.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very familiar with that case, because I was an adviser in the Northern Ireland Office at the time. It was the subject of legal proceedings and, if the noble Baroness will bear with me, I do not really want to reopen what was settled in court. The matter was subject to a court case, and she is well aware of the outcome.

My noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, talked about the status of Northern Ireland. I can give an assurance that I have given many times before: the Belfast agreement is extremely clear, in the section dealing with constitutional principles, and it does not establish Northern Ireland as a hybrid state or a condominium. It is an integral part of the United Kingdom on the basis of consent. However, the Belfast agreement does contain—as those noble Lords present who helped to negotiate it will attest—important commitments around parity of esteem, which were a central part of the agreement in 1998.

But, as has been stated many times, the regulations relating to the flying of the union flag reflect, and are consistent with, Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom—a position which, I assure noble Lords present, this Conservative and Unionist Government fully support.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I am old enough to have been through all the debates on the flags. There was no doubt whatever that what was being upheld was the flag of the United Kingdom, to be flown in circumstances in which it was the flag of the whole United Kingdom, and not to be used for sectarian purposes. That was what the argument was about. It has been supremely successful. It is our flag, and it is flown in the north of Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. It is a pity to worry people unnecessarily because of some comment made 24 years ago by somebody who would have said that anyway. No one has listened to him since on that matter.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend, who makes a very powerful point. I agree with him entirely on those matters. The national flag—the union flag—is the flag of Northern Ireland. There is absolutely nothing in this legislation that will undermine the position of the union flag or force anybody to fly an Irish tricolour—or any other flag, for that matter—alongside it.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

I have very bad hearing, and I did not hear whether the noble Lord used the Sinn Féin term of “north of Ireland” or “Northern Ireland”. Which was it?

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I was talking about Northern Ireland, which is the constitutional phrase for the six counties which make up—

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

That is not the answer to my question.

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I beg to move.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose this proposal simply because it is not something for this Parliament. We are here only because there is no Northern Ireland Assembly.

I have to say to my DUP colleagues that it is a much more serious thing when those who are in favour of unionism and of the north of Ireland and Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, as I am, decide not to make the system work because the system is there to be the means whereby the union works. It is no good saying, “Well, the Sinn Féiners did this, that and the other”. They do not believe in the system; that is why we do not agree with them. It is a much more serious question when the people who do believe in the system make it impossible to do these things in Northern Ireland. Those of us who are unionists need to say to them that it is no longer sensible or acceptable to tell the British Government that they cannot have what is sensible devolution. The idea that this has to come back here because we cannot debate it in the Northern Ireland Assembly seems to me unacceptable and unreasonable. I therefore hope, of course, that the Government will make sure that there is a proper report to the Assembly. The Assembly will no doubt be careful about the spending of its money. We are already spending per head of population a great deal more money in Northern Ireland than we are, for example, in my own area of Wales, where we manage the language issue much more effectively.

The last thing I want to say to the DUP, very simply, is this: having a sense of generosity would be so attractive—just a sense of recognising that other people have a different way of looking at things. I am perfectly able to say “the north of Ireland” because quite a lot of people in Northern Ireland think that. It does not mean to say that I am not entirely in favour of the union, as long as there is a majority for it.

We really do have to get out of this lack of generosity. I want to hear people reaching out across the divide instead of constantly looking at the papers and saying, “This is not quite right for me and, my goodness me, we have not quite got that”. It is time to have a different way. I would remember that “new decade, new start” is rather a good phrase. I would like to have a new start with a bit of generosity from those who have been in power and have had control for a very long time.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord had to say. When it comes to a spirit of generosity, it is with a spirit of generosity that the party I represent has been willing to go into and be part of an Executive in Northern Ireland with those who for years sought to murder us. I take no lectures bearing in mind that some of us who are gathered here are not supposed to be here as far as Sinn Féin/IRA is concerned because our family was to be wiped out completely in one last action of the IRA. Therefore, when it comes to generosity, it is very difficult to accept those in government. I am speaking personally on this. I found it very difficult to watch those who paraded on the roads of Ulster with terrorist weapons in their hands to destroy us every night. For 25 years, I sat in the back of an armoured police car, having to be guarded; my family were not allowed to travel with me. So when it comes to generosity, I suggest that the people I represent have been very generous.