Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

I know that the Government are adamant that the 1998 agreement should be honoured in all its parts, and I fully comply with that. Now they have the opportunity to demonstrate that this commitment is sincerely meant. I hope tonight in your Lordships’ House and in subsequent correspondence to me, which I hope the Minister will place in the Library, that undertakings can be given that Article 2 is being protected at all costs.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has done the Committee a great favour by detailing this particular aspect of the Bill. She has shown that the powers which the Government are seeking to take cover so much that none of us has any idea whatever as to what it may mean. No doubt, the Minister will be able to write a letter which details the answers to each of her excellent questions, but behind those questions is the fundamental falsehood of this Bill. The Bill gives to Ministers powers the strength, width and depth of which none of us have any idea, and the Government have even less idea, clearly, because if they did, they would have restricted those powers and would not have asked this House to accept a proposition which is manifestly undemocratic and which could not be accepted by any democratic House in any country in western Europe.

By the noble Baroness’s detailed forensic explanation of her particular interest, she has revealed the basic falsehood in the Bill and the reason that many of us are not going to allow it to pass, because it is contrary to everything that we have ever done in our political lives. I have been in politics in one House or another for more than 40 years, and no one has ever suggested a Bill of this kind ever before. Ministers had better understand just how serious this is.

I want to say one thing about Ministers too. Having been a Minister for 16 years, which is longer than most people are in post, I learned how important it was to have parliamentary restrictions—how important it was that civil servants could say to you, “I’m afraid, Minister, you can’t do that because that requires Parliament’s acceptance.” It was a vital part of the democratic process. We are being asked to remove that from Ministers, and I say to my noble friends that it is very bad for them, as Ministers, because it is that restriction and control which ensure that they do not move beyond where they ought to go merely because it is convenient.

The last thing that I will say about the excellent offering of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, is this. However detailed the answer is, it will not overcome the fact that any promise made in this House can be taken apart if we give the Government these powers. It is not for Ministers to promise us things, because, if the Act gives them powers, however fine they may be—and what a fine list of Ministers we have—their successors will be able to use these provisions in a way which undermines any promise made to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. That is why I wanted to come in particularly to congratulate her, because she has revealed the fundamental falseness of this whole proposition and the reason why this Bill, of all Bills, should not be passed by this House.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to comment on the nature of the Bill, which has now taken on gargantuan proportions. It is a raging beast running through our constitutional rights and liberties.

However, to be clear cut, it is a good deal more modest. It says that there will be no hard border. It guarantees that it will protect the European single market. Just before the dinner break, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, pointed out that, even if the Bill were implemented, it would not restore Northern Ireland completely to the UK single market in some pure form. He was quite right but it rather misses the point that this Bill is significantly more modest.

As for human rights, a very serious topic—the record of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, in this respect is unequalled—the fact of the matter is that the Bill’s focus is the trade aspects of Articles 5 to 10. It is an attempt to remodel them so that it could reasonably be argued that the commitment in the protocol that the UK single market will be protected is lived up to rather better than it currently is. This seems entirely reasonable to me. I understand that there is a new doctrine in the House: if we read a document, we are all struck dumb by what was in the protocol and cannot even think. All further thought and debate about it is now over, as some mental trauma afflicts us all and we are so lost in admiration for it, but it is a problem. One of the many problems is this: there is a commitment to protecting the UK single market but we have many examples of how it is not protected.

However, the Bill is more limited than many would guess from listening to our discourse today. The crucial point with respect to this amendment is that Article 2 is not the target. That article and its points on human rights remain untouched by this Bill. It is Articles 5 to 10, which deal with the way trade is to be conducted, that are the target of the Bill. The Bill is therefore much more limited, and possibly less of a threat to our constitutional traditions, than has been said.

Above all else, there is a very simple thing that nobody seems to accept is critical: rather than saying, “We’re terribly sorry about the democratic deficit and so on,” how do you respond to the communities in Northern Ireland, who have a right under Article 1 of the international Good Friday agreement to have their aspirations protected by the sovereign Government and are saying, “We have a major problem here: the major issue of our alienation”? That seems to have disappeared entirely. For all its problems, at least the Bill is an effort to do this.

I am not convinced that the constitutionality of the United Kingdom and its great provisions are incredibly protected or defended by saying, “We just could not care less about that question.” This is about a more complicated balance. Is it not obvious that there is a balance to be found here? I desperately hope that it is reached in the negotiations with the EU. Is it not obvious that these strong, dramatic statements on both sides are not helpful in the struggle to reach the balance that must be found?

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but when he replies to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, will he answer the question not just whether the Government will do these things but whether they would have power to do these things? That is the question that most concerns me and many on this side of the Committee.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, and I will ensure that the answers to the noble Baroness are as full and detailed as possible.

In conclusion, given the lateness of the hour and the need to make progress, I genuinely believe that the aims of the Government, the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate this evening are broadly aligned. There might be differences of approach, but we do not believe that the amendments are required. I will write to the noble Baroness in detail and, in that spirit, urge her to withdraw her amendment.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

Finally, aside from the merits of the general principle, it is likely that the proposal to place a duty on public bodies to develop language schemes would incur additional cost to the public purse. I will stop there.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to associate myself with those noble Lords who are sad that this is not being debated in the Assembly. Let me say how sad I am that it is not recognised by some in Northern Ireland that it is their responsibility to be part of that Assembly and that that is the deal. It is a deal that the rest of the United Kingdom, a little bit of which I hope to be able to speak for in this Committee, wants to hold them to instead of being held by them.

Secondly, I opposed the Government’s successful attempt to impose on Northern Ireland changes that were opposed by both communities. I thought that it was wrong. It is not subsidiarity and we should not have done it. However, in this case, we are having to discuss something that has been agreed in principle and which we must carry through. This is therefore a different circumstance, which is why we are doing this. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness who last spoke from the Opposition Bench.

I say to my noble friend that the reference to the European Court of Human Rights is important. It is extremely important that we tie this into the international agreements that we have. If I may say this to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, I do not much mind what Mr Raab has said. The truth is that we signed up to it—we more or less invented it—and we did so to make sure that everybody stood to the same standards in this area. If ever there were a case for making sure that we insist on the standards enforced by the European Court of Human Rights, this certainly is it.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, I deeply regret that this issue is being dealt with here. It is obvious from the first quarter of an hour of debate, from the many local issues that have arisen, that local MLAs would understand the nuances far better. It is a crying shame that this is not being dealt with there.

I have one point to make to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. My party did not agree to New Decade, New Approach. In fact, I deeply regret a lot of the proceedings that led up to it and a lot of what is included in it because I fear that this Bill has within it the seeds of a grievance factory, where it is going to be very difficult to make everybody feel that their particularly identity is being represented. Indeed, it may be a shock to many that people do not go round the place wondering who they are each day; it is not something at the top of people’s agenda when they cannot even put money in the meter to keep their lights on. We must understand that it is not the sort of thing that is necessarily top of people’s agenda.

We must avoid two things. First, because this Bill is not subject to debate in the Assembly where implementation of it would take place, this House cannot amend it —because, if the Assembly is not there, the only process is here, and therefore we should not be afraid to do that. Secondly, and equally, we must be wary of imposing conditions that prove to be difficult for the Assembly.

I think there is some merit in what is suggested in Amendment 1. I take the point about other languages, but one has to be careful about who is included in that and who is not. Within the past 36 months, we have had the arrival on our shores of people from varying backgrounds—from Syria and Afghanistan—we have had a significant indigenous Chinese population for as long as I can remember, and we have had people coming from eastern Europe as part of the European Union for many years, who have built up considerable numbers, particularly in the past 15 years or so. So who is included in that and who is not is very difficult. I ask colleagues to bear those points in mind.

My noble friend Lord Morrow makes a valid point about the boundaries where one public body ends and another begins. There could be quite a lot of overreach and overstretch there. If an office dealing with identity issues becomes specifically involved in rights and equality, there is some overlap, but they would be two quite distinct areas, and we must take great care that we do not create a scrambled egg of bodies all competing about where the boundaries of their activities begin and end. I urge a bit of caution from the Minister in that regard.

Bearing in mind that it is a matter of very deep regret that we have to do this, I suggest that the one thing that we try to avoid is making things worse by confusing the role of one public body with another. I do not think it was ever the intention of the negotiators of New Decade, New Approach that the existing equalities and human rights commissions would be subject to override in this area. In the event that somebody feels that their human right has been overruled, they still have the opportunity to have their case taken up by those bodies. The right to do that is not conflicted in any way by anything in this, but we must avoid confusion. The existing lines are relatively clear, and I think we should adhere to them.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very familiar with that case, because I was an adviser in the Northern Ireland Office at the time. It was the subject of legal proceedings and, if the noble Baroness will bear with me, I do not really want to reopen what was settled in court. The matter was subject to a court case, and she is well aware of the outcome.

My noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, talked about the status of Northern Ireland. I can give an assurance that I have given many times before: the Belfast agreement is extremely clear, in the section dealing with constitutional principles, and it does not establish Northern Ireland as a hybrid state or a condominium. It is an integral part of the United Kingdom on the basis of consent. However, the Belfast agreement does contain—as those noble Lords present who helped to negotiate it will attest—important commitments around parity of esteem, which were a central part of the agreement in 1998.

But, as has been stated many times, the regulations relating to the flying of the union flag reflect, and are consistent with, Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom—a position which, I assure noble Lords present, this Conservative and Unionist Government fully support.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I am old enough to have been through all the debates on the flags. There was no doubt whatever that what was being upheld was the flag of the United Kingdom, to be flown in circumstances in which it was the flag of the whole United Kingdom, and not to be used for sectarian purposes. That was what the argument was about. It has been supremely successful. It is our flag, and it is flown in the north of Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. It is a pity to worry people unnecessarily because of some comment made 24 years ago by somebody who would have said that anyway. No one has listened to him since on that matter.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend, who makes a very powerful point. I agree with him entirely on those matters. The national flag—the union flag—is the flag of Northern Ireland. There is absolutely nothing in this legislation that will undermine the position of the union flag or force anybody to fly an Irish tricolour—or any other flag, for that matter—alongside it.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

I have very bad hearing, and I did not hear whether the noble Lord used the Sinn Féin term of “north of Ireland” or “Northern Ireland”. Which was it?

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I was talking about Northern Ireland, which is the constitutional phrase for the six counties which make up—

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

That is not the answer to my question.

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I beg to move.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose this proposal simply because it is not something for this Parliament. We are here only because there is no Northern Ireland Assembly.

I have to say to my DUP colleagues that it is a much more serious thing when those who are in favour of unionism and of the north of Ireland and Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, as I am, decide not to make the system work because the system is there to be the means whereby the union works. It is no good saying, “Well, the Sinn Féiners did this, that and the other”. They do not believe in the system; that is why we do not agree with them. It is a much more serious question when the people who do believe in the system make it impossible to do these things in Northern Ireland. Those of us who are unionists need to say to them that it is no longer sensible or acceptable to tell the British Government that they cannot have what is sensible devolution. The idea that this has to come back here because we cannot debate it in the Northern Ireland Assembly seems to me unacceptable and unreasonable. I therefore hope, of course, that the Government will make sure that there is a proper report to the Assembly. The Assembly will no doubt be careful about the spending of its money. We are already spending per head of population a great deal more money in Northern Ireland than we are, for example, in my own area of Wales, where we manage the language issue much more effectively.

The last thing I want to say to the DUP, very simply, is this: having a sense of generosity would be so attractive—just a sense of recognising that other people have a different way of looking at things. I am perfectly able to say “the north of Ireland” because quite a lot of people in Northern Ireland think that. It does not mean to say that I am not entirely in favour of the union, as long as there is a majority for it.

We really do have to get out of this lack of generosity. I want to hear people reaching out across the divide instead of constantly looking at the papers and saying, “This is not quite right for me and, my goodness me, we have not quite got that”. It is time to have a different way. I would remember that “new decade, new start” is rather a good phrase. I would like to have a new start with a bit of generosity from those who have been in power and have had control for a very long time.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord had to say. When it comes to a spirit of generosity, it is with a spirit of generosity that the party I represent has been willing to go into and be part of an Executive in Northern Ireland with those who for years sought to murder us. I take no lectures bearing in mind that some of us who are gathered here are not supposed to be here as far as Sinn Féin/IRA is concerned because our family was to be wiped out completely in one last action of the IRA. Therefore, when it comes to generosity, it is very difficult to accept those in government. I am speaking personally on this. I found it very difficult to watch those who paraded on the roads of Ulster with terrorist weapons in their hands to destroy us every night. For 25 years, I sat in the back of an armoured police car, having to be guarded; my family were not allowed to travel with me. So when it comes to generosity, I suggest that the people I represent have been very generous.

Domestic Premises (Energy Performance) Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Friday 7th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Committee on Climate Change and from the work that I do in other ways to increase sustainability. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for introducing the Bill, which seems admirable and one which we can all support. If my noble friend the Minister feels that I am a little critical, mine is the criticality of urgency rather than of the nature of what we have to do.

One of our problems is that we all know what we have to do and done for a long time. But we have not done it and we all share blame in that: the previous Labour Government, for putting the date for net-zero homes as far forward as they could so that no Minister would be around when it came; the coalition Government for then getting rid of that very important part of the deal; and the Conservative Governments for not getting on with it when they should have. Just as we can all celebrate the joint nature of the Climate Change Act, we also all have to take responsibility for the lack of urgency in dealing with these matters.

Net zero reminds us that urgency is all, because if we want to get to net zero in 2050 we have to do a great deal of the heavy lifting by 2030. If we do not, we cannot get to net zero by 2050. I have to argue with Extinction Rebellion’s claim that we could get there by 2025. When you ask carefully as to how that group thinks we ought to do it, answer comes there none. All the work we have done clearly shows that you cannot do it as immediately as that, but that does not mean to say that you do not have very large numbers of things to do by 2025 and 2030. My doubt about the Bill is that it confirms the Government’s targets, which are not good enough. I hope that the Government will not only accept the Bill and assist its passage, but recognise that it is not even a minimum. It is below the minimum that we need to do to achieve our ends.

I make just one comment: we are concerned with houses we already have, but we are making the situation worse by at least 250,000 homes every year because we are building houses today that will not meet our requirements. This is barmy and I am fed up with people, particularly Ministers of all kinds, telling me that because the other is the bigger issue they do not want to concentrate on the smaller one. Since they have been doing that, the bigger issue has gone up by 2 million. We have not done what we could have done.

One thing we will have to think about in considering the Bill is how we draw attention to the fact that houses should not be built now that do not more than reach the levels referred to in it. No new house should now be built differing much from a Passivhaus level—not a Passivhaus itself, because that has some complications that are not necessary. It needs the simplicity that Hastoe Housing is now giving to it. However, it is that level we should insist upon.

The nine big housebuilders, building nearly 80% of the homes that are bought, have avoided their duty to raise their standards on the basis that the Government have not raised them for them. Their federation is the only organisation I know which in its annual report—the most recent one published in October 2019—does not address climate change. This is the housebuilding business. It now looks as if the housebuilders have made a change; they have had a conference and they are working out how they will meet the target of no-fossil fuel connections by 2025. They have accepted that they are not going to “beat” the Government as they have on every previous occasion when they have tried to set some level from outside. My first suggested addition to the Bill—not objection—is that we make sure we think about that, because I have worked out that, between now and 2035, there will be 3 million new homes which under the present measurements will probably not meet the standards that the Government are trying to reach by that year.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, raised the important issue of the skills gap. A problem this country faces right across the board in reaching our targets for net zero is in respect of the skills of the people who will do it. The work associated with this is marvellous for new jobs; it is one of the things that can happen so much in the north of England. We can do all the things that we want to do. It is a matter not of extra expense, but of better education, more targeted education, more provision of education, and no longer treating further education as some inferior way of learning. We need to deal with that, but the skills gaps will not be filled unless there is certainty in the industry. That was the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and anyone who has anything to do with this industry will accept it. It will not happen unless people know that they will need those skills in this year and for that year.

To do that, we have to examine the dates rather carefully. One of our problems is that we think that we are doing things on a certain date, but people who have planning permission, for example, manage to push the date out. I hope that the Government accept that these dates are the final dates, which are not to be moved on—actually, we want to move them back. I congratulate the Government on the remarkable step they have taken in accepting the advice of the climate change committee and saying that we will have a system whereby only electric vehicles will be sold from 2035—if not earlier—instead of 2040, which was manifestly outwith any system that we would need to reach net zero. I think that we can do the same with housing because we have a whole series of levers that I recommend to my noble friend the Minister.

It would be easy to insist that whenever any mortgage figure for monthly repayments is quoted on those banners outside new houses it should include the cost of heating. The mortgage price should never be quoted without the cost of heating, because that is the basic price. That would force housebuilders to admit to people that they are giving them an annual bill which should not be there, that if they built the house better they would not have that bill, both for heating and ventilation—I mention ventilation because that will be an increasing worry in view of the change in the climate which is already part of our existence; it is not something that we will be able to turn back. If we do that, we can make all sorts of arrangements.

I never understand why we cannot say that when you sell a house you have to show that you have raised it one energy performance level during the time you had it, or, if not, the cost of raising it another level will be put in escrow for the person who buys the house. I do not understand why we do not make it necessary for every survey to include clearly the cost of improving the house to the next level. That should be part of what the surveyor does so that people know what the situation is. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, did not refer to the fact that a high proportion—some say more than 60%—of people buying a house do not know what the energy efficiency level is. I have been to a particular housing area in my former constituency with one of my sons, who looked about the age to want to buy a house. We went around a house that was on the market for £500,000. I asked about the energy efficiency and the good lady said, “Very high.” I said, “What do you mean by ‘very high’? Is it A to F, or one to seven? Give me some idea.” It became clear that she did not know whether A was high or low; she had not quite got that right, so she said “very high” again. I said, “Well, can I see what it is?” “Oh”, she said, “head office has not given it to us.” This was a series of houses that had been on the market for some time, half of which had been sold, and nobody could have known what the efficiency was because they were not provided with the information. That is Britain’s second-largest housebuilder, which shall be nameless—although it was Persimmon.

I agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, on rural-proofing, but rural-proofing should not be an excuse for not doing it. We should make sure that those things that cannot be done in the normal course of business are done because we have intervened. That is the matter of fairness. I say to my noble friend the Minister that we will not meet our climate change requirements if we are not fair. It is crucial that the people of Britain recognise that this is a battle which we all share, and which does not go on to the shoulders of the poorest. Unfortunately, the system that has been brilliant in bringing forward offshore wind bore much more heavily on those houses that did not have gas or alternative means of heating because their electricity bills were, and are, disproportionately high—because that is how we finance it. We must recognise that this is something for all of us. The benefits have to be seen, because many of them are interim benefits. Above all, the people of Britain must feel that this is fair dos. When we design this system, this is the minimum that we can do—so much the minimum that it is not enough—but, as we design it, we must build into it the fairness for which the British people are so keen. If we do not do that, we will have gilets jaunes, and perfectly rightly too, because that is a statement not about climate change but about unfairness and unthinking imposition on the nation.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and important discussion on a Bill that addresses an issue which I believe we all care very much about. As we look at the challenges facing the country in ensuring that all are able to live in a warm home, there is no doubt in my mind right now that that is a simple statement of ambition for everyone here.

The Government remain committed to delivering on a heat policy road map, and they will do so very soon indeed. It will look at how to both reduce emissions on buildings and address energy efficiency and will come as part of a series of announcements that we will make as we approach COP 26 in Glasgow in November. That heat policy road map is imminent. However, it cannot come alone; it must come alongside a fuel poverty strategy for England—I cannot on this occasion speak for Scotland. Again, that strategy will come very soon. These two combined policies will set out the series of steps which will be taken to bring us toward taking the necessary step to ensure that we have eliminated fuel poverty and addressed the energy efficiency of buildings in good time on our approach to our ambitious net zero target by 2050.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked when the White Paper is coming. It will necessarily come first, setting each of these policies and a wider range of policies into a broader context. Again, that is also part of our ambitious complete statement ahead of the Glasgow climate change conference.

On the question of ongoing investment in addressing the quality and durability of homes, we continue to invest some £2.5 billion in capital funding to improve the homes of those on lower incomes, and we are seeking to improve the warm home discount and energy company obligation. Each of these will be necessary.

A great deal has changed since the earlier incarnation of the Bill was introduced in the other place, not least that there has been an election, which is one of the reasons why that Bill did not make progress. In that election, the party of government, to which I belong, made a number of serious commitments in its manifesto, and it is worth while rehearsing what they are. There will be £6.3 billion-worth of upgrade for those in fuel-poor homes, particularly in social housing. We will consult on raising minimum energy performance standards in private rentals—again, as a number of noble Lords mentioned today, private rentals are perhaps the most difficult to reach of all properties, since they are in the hands of a large number of individuals. We will consult on setting requirements for lenders to improve the energy performance, which, again, should help us move in the right direction. Finally, we will consult on phasing out the installation of fossil fuel heating systems in off-gas grid properties—again, trying to get to that hard-to-reach final point in moving this forward.

We are putting forward a number of other policies, some of which touch on issues raised by noble Lords today. On the question of insulation, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, he is quite right. You can have the best insulation, badly installed, and you achieve literally nothing. The problem with that is that if your kitemarked process does not recognise the installation, you could theoretically have a high quality and yet a low reality, and you might never know that, because there is no way to monitor it traditionally inside your own home. Therefore, we are instituting a new trust mark scheme, which should allow us to examine things such as cavity wall insulation to ensure that it is up to standard regarding not just the materials but the installation itself. That should go some of the way forward. We are also putting £5 million into the green home finance innovation to look at other ways in which we can address some of the issues inside homes, and £10 million to examine how best to retrofit.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Errol, questioned how we are able to look at some houses which are listed beyond the ability to address them. To be frank, it is a hornets’ nest to try to look at the whole listing process, but that will need to be done. We are sitting in a Chamber that is surrounded by glass held in by pieces of lead. As this building goes through its retrofit, we have to ask ourselves how it shall achieve the highest possible standard, and what it can expect to achieve in that regard.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked why the number of people who seem to be stuck in fuel poverty does not seem to change year on year. He is right to ask that, and the answer is a more straightforward one, as it is a relative metric. It is always looking at the bottom 10% to 12%, so we will always get a similar sort of figure. However, because what we are measuring inside that will change but the numbers themselves may not, to measure progress within it we need to look at the fuel poverty gap, which is the difference in bills between fuel-poor and not fuel-poor households. The fuel poverty gap fell from £873 million in 2010 to £812 million in 2017—the most recent statistics that we have. I do not think that is enough, if I am being honest, but it is a move in the right direction. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also asked about the renewable heat incentive. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has committed to a replacement for that, but I do not yet know what that replacement will be, so I cannot give him any more detail on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, made a number of serious points. His chairmanship of the Committee on Climate Change is welcome and his contribution is welcome in that regard. Our future home standards will be introduced by 2025. I know that he will quickly say that that is too late, and I understand why he would, but it will require new-build homes to be future-proofed, with low-carbon heating and world-leading levels of energy efficiency. As it happens, we are consulting on it right now, and consultation on that particular proposal closes today, so I fear those who have not yet put their thoughts on paper may be a little too late.

[Lord Deben]

Will my noble friend give way on that point? Can he assure me that in 2025, the new standards will come into operation on any house that is under construction, and not wait for people to have fulfilled their planning period; otherwise, it will not be 2025—as history tells us, it will be 2029?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will give that commitment; I think I can do that. This may not be in the consultation, but I think that would make perfect sense. We need dates to be meaningful, and 2025 is the meaningful date we are talking about here. If a piece of paper whistles towards me from the Box, noble Lords will realise that I have gone beyond my brief, but I think that at this point that commitment is something I can make—I hope. Yes, I have reassurance from over my shoulder.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about the radio programme he heard this morning and what tax issue will come forward. I suspect that it is true to say that all of this area is being examined. The Treasury works in mysterious ways: I cannot tell noble Lords exactly what it is thinking about at this moment, but I am sure it is thinking very big thoughts. When it tells us what they are, I shall be very interested to hear them, much the same as the noble Lord.

What I have to come round to, and have been skirting around just now, is that although the Bill itself is welcome in so far as it facilitates this discussion and our debate today, we cannot support it. I appreciate that a number of noble Lords will be disappointed in that regard, but let me explain some of the reasons why we cannot do that today.

The first is that we have strategies coming which will examine this. I thought that was a piece of paper whistling toward me—good, it was not. I am sorry about that; I am distracting myself. The policies that we will be putting out in a matter of a few months will set the strategic direction and set in place within a road map how we will achieve it. The Bill before us would cut across that and reduce our flexibility when that comes forward.

The other aspect of the Bill is that it gives us no new powers or levers. It does not actually help us achieve the ends; it would simply set the framework within which we are to achieve them. Those dates will be contained within the strategies I mentioned. It will be important to ensure that the strategies have clear dates, and we have a road map with commitments which fit into a legal framework to ensure the certainty which underpins the purpose behind the Bill: to allow the building sector to understand what it is up against, what it has to commit to, and, frankly, what it should be exceeding. These should be setting minimum standards, there should not be any limit on their ambitions to move beyond that point.

I do not doubt that the noble Lord will be disappointed to hear that we do not support the Bill, but I can give assurances that in the development of the strategies to come, I would welcome his involvement and that of all Members of the House who have taken an interest in the Bill today. I would also welcome the involvement of Mr Bailey; I was disappointed to hear that he was ill, but would welcome his involvement in this process as the strategies become more robust. I think elements of the Bill will find a new home in the strategy as it manifests itself as a more solid approach.

I appreciate that that is not the outcome many here would have wished for, but I hope that noble Lords will understand why I am saying that. We are in no way seeking to be less than absolutely ambitious in this area, and we will seek to work with all to ensure that our strategy delivers, as this Bill itself would have delivered.

Social Rented Housing: Construction

Lord Deben Excerpts

Thursday 26th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will my noble friend accept that we are building almost all our houses to a standard which means that they will have to be retrofitted because the energy efficiency is so low? Will he give a commitment that those 1 million houses will be built to a standard which enables people to afford to heat them, because we have started off in the right way instead of having to do it afterwards?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is very well versed in these matters—few people in the House have more experience than him—and I know that we worked closely together when I was in another department in relation to climate change. It is true that retrofitting is a large part of what is happening at the moment; it is also true that we must seek to minimise the need for retrofitting based on present experience and knowledge. Nevertheless, there is a massive backlog of retrofitting that will keep us very busy for a long time in order that we meet those important climate change targets which the Government are determined we hit.

Business Rates Hardship Fund

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right about the importance of ensuring that we have a fair system. We will be looking at possible reforms of the business rates systems during the course of this Parliament. But in the meantime, as the noble Lord has correctly pressed us, it is important that relief schemes are operating as effectively as they should be. That is why I once again appeal to noble Lords to, where necessary, contact their own local authorities and put pressure on them to make sure that the relief that has already been allocated is passed on to businesses.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Could my noble friend put a greater emphasis on this? We need this change now and cannot wait for it, because otherwise the high street will die.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right, and we are going to look at possible reforms to the rating system during this Parliament. In the meantime, the Government have been very clear—in 2016 through a package of £9 billion-worth of relief, and again in 2017, with £435 million-worth of relief—on how we can ensure that assistance goes to businesses on our hard-pressed high streets. Once again, I encourage local authorities to pass that money on.

Localism Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reay]

I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just said and I strongly support the amendment.

Like my noble friend, I did not think very much of the Minister’s arguments for not accepting my noble friend’s amendment on Report. He argued that we could wait and see how it worked out in London when London boroughs get powers under the latest London Local Authorities Bill to issue the registered keepers of vehicles with civil penalties where enforcement officers witness littering from a vehicle. I thought that argument had some plausibility.

However, London is not the country. Litter thrown from vehicles is a particular scourge of the countryside. People driving through the countryside may feel themselves more likely to be unobserved and so more prone to commit the offence. They may well be right. Creating this new offence may work better in towns than it will in the country—we simply do not know—but I suggest that the logical thing to do would be to allow it to be tried out in different parts of the country. My noble friend’s amendment would enable this to happen by permitting local authorities who are particularly keen to do so to take action.

I hope the Government will accept the amendment. If they do not and do not say that they have now changed their minds and intend to introduce, at the earliest opportunity, a new national offence along the lines of my noble friend’s amendment, I hope my noble friend will press his amendment to a Division and I shall certainly support it.

[Lord Deben]

I am attracted to the amendment, which has been so ably moved by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. As a campaigning environmentalist I am sometimes concerned that the one issue that unites everyone is not fighting climate change—which, of course, is the biggest issue of all—but litter. If you really want to cause a major row, then raise the issue of litter. The Government have to be careful about appearing not to recognise how, particularly in the countryside, as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has said, this is an issue of considerable concern.

I find it one of the more depressing things that, in the beautiful part of England where I live, at most weekends the first part of the job is to pick up the various items that have been pushed into the hedge and down the drive of the house in which I live. It is a sad fact but it is one that needs to be taken seriously, and I hope noble Lords will agree that this elegant use of the Bill—to give opportunity for particular local authorities to make a particular choice—would be a sensible step. I am sure the Minister may have some really remarkable argument to show a better way forward, which I look forward to hearing.

In Suffolk we have a very successful campaign, which I have to speak of very carefully because it is headlined by the phrase, “Don’t be a tosser”. It is designed to make people stop throwing things out of car windows. This is a real issue. The local authorities in Suffolk might well like to take the opportunity, were they able to, to help the Government by trialling such a proposal. I hope the Government will take seriously what the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has suggested.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment, and in doing so I must declare an interest as a farmer. We are plagued by litter from cars down in Somerset where I come from. It does not tend to be what I would call black-bag-type litter, although that is sometimes worse because the bags are thrown out of cars and explode and the litter goes all over the field in a real mess and is very difficult to pick up.

The worst sort of litter that we have is old fridges, old cookers, old beds and old mattresses. They get poured out into little nooks and crannies by the road and then seem to breed. I feel that there is a book in here somewhere, although perhaps not the type of stuff the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, writes. You get one cooker, and then two. Then they will have a daughter of a fridge and a mattress will arrive. It is a most extraordinary thing and no one seems to have the responsibility for picking it up. I know one or two local farmers who shovel the stuff back on to the road, so then it becomes the responsibility of the Highways Agency, which of course makes it responsible for littering the countryside.

It is obviously very difficult for the local council, because almost every night somewhere around my neighbourhood someone has dumped some particular object or other. Can the council do anything to prosecute the motorist? If you are worried that it might not be the motorist who has dumped it but someone in the car, do not tell me that a motorist is not responsible if his car is stopped and a fridge gets thrown out. A motorist is just as responsible as the person who might be in the back seat. I really endorse this amendment and think it is really very important that we support it.

Patrick Finucane

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and pay tribute to her work in Northern Ireland over many years. She is concerned about whether Sir Desmond has the opportunity to look at the papers. The review will have the full support and co-operation of all government departments and agencies in carrying out its work. There is no intention whatever to restrict Sir Desmond in looking at these papers. That has been clearly said and I repeat that in saying that he has free access to look at these things.

[Lord Deben]

Will my noble friend accept that all sides of this House should be extremely supportive of the Prime Minister in his unqualified apology? Much of what has happened in the north of Ireland has happened in terrible circumstances on both sides. There is a history which goes back way beyond the present troubles and many apologies which could be made by all of us, not least the Conservative Party over its actions in Northern Ireland. This apology is crucial because it shows that we have admitted that what happened should not have happened and I hope that arguments about the form of the solution will not overcome the reality of the Government’s clear commitment to the human rights involved.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I believe that the word “apology” and what has been done is the most important thing to have happened. The further inquiry by Sir Desmond is on top of that and we have got to find out what happened. The apology is one thing and it is very important. I am glad that the noble Lord has mentioned that. But we have then got to move on because the whole thing is about moving on. Until we can satisfy all of the people who are concerned about this, it remains one of the impediments in moving on in the peace process in Northern Ireland.

Revised Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1)

Lord Deben Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I will say a word or two in the break. I first declare my interest and my involvement in alternative forms of energy. I very much welcome these documents and the commitment of the Government to making the changes that they seek.

It would be a foolish and irresponsible Government who did not recognise that the overwhelming majority of scientific advice is that climate change is happening and that mankind is affecting it. Even if that were untrue, a population of 9 billion and a shortage of resources will mean that most, if not all, of these actions would have to be taken in any case. The argument is over. There is no point in arguing; if you do not believe in climate change, you must just accept the population argument and the changes that will be needed to reserve and conserve the resources that we have. That means that those of us who are committed to this should also be careful to ensure that the cost of the change is as low as possible. Cost-effectiveness is crucial but it would be foolish to tell people that because they do not like the rise in the cost of electricity we should not allow it to happen. They will be much angrier if we allow the world to be endangered because we have not taken these steps.

Can the Minister confirm that there is a real need to get rid of several of the impediments to what we are trying to do? I note that the Government have already set up a group of specialists in the agricultural area to look at how impediments to agriculture can be removed. There are many such impediments here. For example, the economic advantage to the providers of overhead power lines of having a new power line militates against the much more sensible policy of restringing old power lines. It is simply to their advantage to have a large amount of new investment in those circumstances. There is a whole range of such areas which are not covered in these documents but could very much benefit the nation.

Someone said that offshore wind is much more popular than onshore wind. I chair an offshore wind company, and I will tell your Lordships why it is much more popular: because it is a long way away. Once you start connecting it onshore, though, a good deal of that unpopularity will return to it. We have to be pretty tough about the changes in the planning arrangements, and I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on this. We really cannot run our whole system on that basis; if we had done that in the 19th century we would not have had a railway, and if we had done so in the 18th century we would not have had a single canal. We have to recognise that we must build for the future, and we must do it as well as we can in the context of what we have, but we really cannot look backwards in that way.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, but black carbon is a major concern that people ignore at their peril. It is particularly damaging to the health of people here and throughout the world. Unless we do something about black carbon here, we will not be able to help the Indians, for example. In that country, black carbon is a real issue for the health of its population.

That leads to me to answer a point that I hope the Minister will emphasise: of course we are doing more than other people, because we are taking the lead and because we want the physical and financial advantages of doing so. If we want to get other people to do it, we have to do it first ourselves. I say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester that I am entirely in favour of co-operation with our neighbours, but if we want that co-operation we have to set the scene and the leadership example. My only concern about the coalition policy on this is that we have to recognise that this is above all a European issue, that we have to work within the European Union, that the EU is crucial to the future of this, and that a little less attacking of the EU and a little more support for it would make it very much easier to deliver what we need to do.