Sentencing Council Guidelines

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are taking questions on this Urgent Question. We need short, sharp, succinct and to-the-point questions.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in general, a community sentence should be imposed rather than a custodial one? In that context, would he agree that, in general, and not confined to the cohorts referred to in the guidelines, there should be a pre-sentence report to assist the court in determining whether a defendant is likely to be compliant with a community sentence and also to benefit from one?

Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we have plenty of time. We will hear first from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, then from the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and then from the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I think the Minister is aware that the Council of Europe has done a great deal on this matter, particularly the parliamentary assembly committee on culture, media and sport. I think the Minister said in a previous exchange that he would look at the Council of Europe recommendations and take account of them in taking action on this. Has he had the opportunity to do this yet? If not, will he do so soon?

Drones: High-security Prisons

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

Let us have the Conservative Benches and then the Cross Benches. If noble Lords are very quick, we will get both in.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on any improvements since the introduction in January 2024 of the no-fly zones around certain prisons? Have they been a success, and how can we boost their effectiveness?

Criminal Justice System: Capacity

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

This measure was unavailable to the previous Government, who had to reverse it because they ran the system so close to collapse. They left the backlog unaddressed and victims had to wait far too long for justice. The prediction is that we will see a slight increase in the overall prison population, but by bearing down on the remand population in our reception prisons we will create capacity where we need it most. However, I am confident that there is currently enough capacity in prisons to absorb the initial inflationary impact, and there is no evidence that magistrates send people to prison more or for longer. Because of how precarious the situation is, we believe that now is the right time to take this measure.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, before we move on to Back-Bench questions, let me be absolutely clear that this is 20 minutes of questions—short, succinct and sharp questions—not speeches.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

The Grand Committee is now in session.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson, opens this debate, I would like to highlight the one-minute speaking time limit for contributions, other than for the noble Baroness or the Minister. I appreciate that this is tight and that many noble Lords will have more to say. It is indeed a reflection of the popularity of the topic. I respectfully ask that all contributions are limited to one minute maximum to protect the time for the Minister’s response.

Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Saturday 10th September 2022 Lords Chamber

These stories must be taken with a pinch of salt, but they show—I think, in my own humility—the great and determined spirit of this monarch; she whom the earth shall soon receive as its honoured guest. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the newly proclaimed King Charles III for the enormous task ahead but, for now, Her Majesty’s memory is our keepsake, with which we will never part. God has her in his keeping as we have her in our hearts. Long live the King.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, like other Members of the House, I thank Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II for her service to our United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. Honour, duty and the service of Her Majesty have been spoken of movingly over these two days of tributes. I thought the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition set the tone wonderfully with their beautiful speeches yesterday.

When I go to an education centre or visit a school, I am usually asked, “Have you met the Queen?” I have to say that no, I have not; but I have had the enormous privilege and honour of being a Member of this House, being here at State Openings and watching Her Majesty’s addresses from the Throne. It is a real privilege that all Members have had.

We all know of Her Majesty’s love of horses and horse-racing. We have seen the joy on her face when she has had a winner at a meeting she was attending. We have also seen her attend many other sporting events. What many in the House may not know is that Her Majesty’s first football match was on 9 April 1945 as the young Princess Elizabeth, in her service uniform. It was the Football League War Cup South Final. The match was Millwall v Chelsea and, surprisingly, my team Millwall lost 2-0. Millwall was playing in blue and white, having been founded by Scotsmen who had come down from the east of Scotland to work in the docks.

We know of Her Majesty’s love of Scotland, her United Kingdom and our brotherhood of nations. One of her legacies that we need to work to ensure is that the United Kingdom remains united.

I endorse the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, who is in her place, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall about Her Majesty’s support for the arts. She, along with her husband Prince Philip, took great interest in the campaign led by Sam Wanamaker to raise funds to build a replica of Shakespeare’s Globe, close to the original site at Bankside in Southwark. It was to the great joy of everyone involved in the campaign—I was involved to some extent—that Her Majesty opened the replica theatre on 12 June 1997.

My heritage is Irish: I am second-generation Irish, born to Irish parents here in London nearly 60 years ago. I have a great love of Ireland and everything Irish. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and my noble friend Lord Anderson of Swansea, among others, recalled in their speeches Her Majesty’s state visit to Ireland which was, as we all know, a tremendous success. It was the first visit to the Irish Republic by a reigning monarch since 1911, when it was of course part of the United Kingdom. She visited several significant sites, including Croke Park. As we have heard, a few opening words of her address at the state banquet were in Gaelic. It was a memorable visit: a truly great success of a great monarch and diplomat, recognising our countries’ shared history—some of it difficult, but moving forward together in partnership.

I also recall the television pictures of Her Majesty shaking hands with the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness, in June 2012. I remember the smiles and thinking, “What progress has been made!” It was an historic event in itself that would have been unimaginable some years earlier.

We are all so fortunate to have lived during the reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, a remarkable woman and our greatest monarch. Her legacy lives on and we should honour her by doing everything we can to ensure that it endures.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to be able to follow the impressive and interesting tribute by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. Indeed, after hearing so many excellent tributes by so many noble Lords, it is difficult to find something new or interesting to say which has not already been said. I had hesitated to put my name down to make a tribute, but then I thought it was actually my duty to make a contribution.

After all, I am proud to have been involved in three organisations of which Her late Majesty was the titular head. She was colonel-in-chief of the Royal Green Jackets, air commodore-in-chief of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and patron of the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund. At first hand, I have seen how seriously she took her responsibilities for these organisations and how genuine was her interest in all of them. She made everyone involved in them feel better all the time and, of course, did the same for so many other organisations.

As my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal said in his moving tribute yesterday, no one ever questioned her work ethic. Her devotion to duty was absolute and never faltered throughout her long reign. She made all those who were fortunate enough to cross her path feel better about the world and themselves. She was always a calming influence.

The British people are sentimental about animals and very many love dogs, as did the Queen. My late mother-in-law was lucky enough to come to own two of the legendary “dorgis”, Lockett and Whitty. They were faithful companions during the final years of her life. The Queen’s qualities of loyalty and faithfulness had rubbed off on the dogs she bred.

Her knowledge and expertise in breeding dogs was exceeded only by her prowess as a breeder of horses. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury and others have spoken of her expertise in equine matters. Many of your Lordships will have seen the pure joy that seeing a horse that she had bred win on the racecourse brought her. I was glad to hear Nicky Henderson speak of that on the radio this morning.

Although we have known that her reign would not go on for ever, the depth of her presence in the life of our nation was such that, at the same time, we did not believe that it would not continue for just a bit longer. We almost came to believe that she was immortal. Now that we have lost her, we realise even more how much we valued her. The whole nation is deeply saddened and shaken by the huge significance of the ending of the second Elizabethan age. Multitudes of people around the world, citizens of her realms, of Commonwealth countries and of other lands, whose regard for this country has ever been strengthened by their admiration for its monarch, similarly mourn her passing.

The thousands of people thronging out of Green Park station yesterday led me to walk with them across the park up to Buckingham Palace, to experience how they were thinking and to marvel at the deep affection in which they held our late Queen. How lucky we are to have a constitutional monarchy, which provides a higher power with which we can all identify, irrespective of background, politics and other differences. An elected president with a limited term can never serve as a symbol of the ultimate unity of the nation and its people.

All of us who sit in your Lordships’ House are privileged to be able to pay tribute to our wonderful, late and great Queen and to offer our sincere condolences to His Majesty the King and the other members of the Royal Family, as they turn the page and a new chapter in our nation’s story begins. May she rest in peace. God save the King.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

Clause 37 agreed.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I have just come into the Chamber but may I suggest, before the noble Lord moves to adjourn, that we have a usual channels discussion in the next 30 minutes? Regarding the point made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu, Committee is a conversation; it is not Report. I think we need to clarify that. I want to make progress on the Bill, but we need to have a discussion on it. I think the intervention was right and, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, also said, this conversation in Committee is not bound by the rules of Report. I think we should use these 30 minutes to get this ironed out.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Lords Hansard - part two & Report stage
Wednesday 15th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I speak in support of the amendment. I thank the noble Baroness for bringing it forward. As she said, we met many years ago in her office upstairs, with representatives of the trade union USDAW to discuss these issues. We rightly pursued this point.

Many years ago, when I was about 14, I became a shop worker; I started working in a shop on the Walworth Road. It got me talking, and I have not stopped talking since. Meeting people gave me confidence. Equally, over the many years I worked there, there were often incidents when you were abused by customers. In those days, when someone paid by credit card you had to phone up if you were a bit suspicious. You had people legging it for the bus—there were all sorts of incidents. There were always issues. You would sometimes be abused by people who were seeking to do wrong: to shoplift or cause other problems. So I have first-hand experience of some of the problems that shop workers have experienced.

I was a member of USDAW. It is a fantastic trade union. It understands its members and the issues they have, and puts them forward persuasively to government and local authorities. It always did that. One of its long-running campaigns is called Freedom from Fear. You have the right to go to work, do your job, be paid for your work and not live in fear. Many shop workers have that issue; they are in fear of what will happen to them there. During the pandemic we have all seen some appalling stories of how shop workers have been treated. USDAW has been really good in standing up to that.

I pay tribute to John Hannett, the former general secretary of USDAW, to Paddy Lillis, the present general secretary, to the staff and to the many hundreds of thousands of USDAW members who have not let this issue rest. I also pay tribute to some really good employers, the supermarkets that understand the problems their staff have. The Co-op, Tesco and many others have stood up and backed the union and its members. This amendment has also been led by the work of Daniel Johnson MSP in Scotland. He got his Private Member’s Bill through last year.

What is really good about this amendment is how wide it is; it covers anybody delivering a service to the public. In some senses it is wider than my noble friend Lord Coaker’s amendment, which I think is great, and a better amendment. It is really good and we should do it.

I am really pleased. We all hear many stories about what goes on. My good friend Elaine Dean, the vice-president of the Central England Co-op, will tell you about some of the appalling incidents it has had with its members and with staff over the pandemic. I genuinely thank the Minister. She listened, understood and went back to the department and argued in support of the campaign, and we have come out with a good amendment. I thank her very much for that.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I call the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, who will speak remotely.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am more than happy to do that. In fact, I think it would be a very good idea to meet up, because the discussions have been positive and fruitful over the last period. So, yes, I am very happy to do that in support of my noble friend.

I welcome the support for the government amendment, as I have said. I think it makes a real, significant step forward. Let us keep it monitored, as my noble friend said.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I am genuinely very grateful to the Minister. I think this is a good example for all Members of the House that when you have an issue, you should just keep raising it, because this House can maybe act in ways that the other place sometimes cannot. Sometimes people get into their trenches there, but we can do it a bit differently here. Certainly, by raising issues persistently, and with the Minister listening and bringing people together, we can actually get things right. I think that is one of the great things about this House.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. I think we will call it the “Kennedy approach”, but then we have had the “Cashman approach” as well—and they have both worked. We have the bandwidth to look at things in a different way from the other place. On that note, I commend the amendment to the House.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate, one that has included many speeches that are thoughtful, inquisitive and questioning of the Government. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Fullbrook, on her excellent maiden speech. She speaks with experience of the other place and of local government and I look forward to future debate with her. In a debate that addresses the safety and security of our nation and its citizens, I pay tribute to the police, the other emergency services and all those who keep us safe in their many jobs and roles in these vital areas of work.

In my contribution, I intend not only to look at home affairs matters but to refer to contributions that noble Lords have made on a number of other issues today. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, rightly drew attention to the lack of support for artists and musicians, and the failure to get them proper access to the European Union. That is damaging for our economy and for a sector that brings billions of pounds into the UK.

I agree with every word of the contributions by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury and Lady Bull, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall. We have wonderful arts and cultural offerings here in the UK. I am proud that, when I was a young councillor in 1986, my first vote on Southwark Council was to end the ridiculous dispute with Sam Wanamaker and get the Globe Theatre built. Anyone who knows the Bankside area knows that it has been transformed by the arrival of the Globe, with the plays of our greatest playwright being performed where he himself performed them in the 16th century.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, spoke about the number of young people who have learned to read music and to play a musical instrument and who have had their eyes opened to the wonderful world before them. I was not good enough to play professionally, but I learned to play an instrument and to read music, and that has given me a lifelong love of classical music. I walk past the Royal Festival Hall every night on my way home. As a kid from a council estate, not only have I attended concerts there but I have played there many times. That was thanks to a wonderful teacher at a school I went to, Franz Busuttil.

I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, when he draws attention to the plight of freelancers. This is a group of people who have not been looked after at all in the pandemic, and lots of them have now gone into other areas of work. We run the risk that they will never be able to return to their professions, in which case we, the country and our economy will lose. It really is not good. Noble Lords’ contributions about the insurance cover for live events are also something that the Government need to listen to.

I was interested to hear the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Pickles. He spoke about proposals for postal and proxy voting. I am afraid that I take the view of my noble friend Lord Blunkett on these matters. I would be a bit more convinced of the intention of the Government if I had heard what we are going to do about the 8 million people who are not on the register, but there has not been a word about them. I want to hear how the people in our country who do not have a vote are going to get one, so when that Bill comes here we are going to look carefully at that issue.

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, carried over from the last Session, contains provisions that the Labour Party not only supports but has campaigned for. That includes the police covenant—but the covenant must mean a real step change in support and protection for police officers—and the increase in sentences for assaults on emergency workers. We support the measures in the Bill on causing death by dangerous driving and on the extension of protection for young people under the age of 18 against those who want to have sexual relations with them. We will want to explore how we can widen the scope to maximise the protections for young people. We welcome other elements, such as the recognition that the remand of children must be used as a last resort and the reform of the criminal records disclosure regime. However, there are elements of the Bill in respect of protest and the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities that we have considerable concerns about, and we will seek to examine them fully and possibly amend them when we debate them in the House.

On the counter-state threats Bill, we on these Benches want to see measures in place that give our law enforcement and scrutiny agencies the tools that they need to keep us safe. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, that we need laws that are balanced and fit for purpose in order to combat the threats that we face from hostile states. We have a serious problem here that needs to be tackled: dirty money flowing into London; property being bought from states, despots and other individuals so that they can hide their money, their ill-gotten gains, in a safe jurisdiction; attempts to undermine our democracy, which the Government have done very little about; and people poisoned and murdered on our streets. The Intelligence and Security Committee’s report on Russia exposed the weakness of the Government’s approach, illustrating how badly the Government have done in underestimating the threats posed and the response required.

My noble friends Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Mann raised the issue of football. We need to give fans much more influence and power regarding their local football clubs. Local clubs are the lifeblood of their communities—I have supported Millwall my whole life and the Millwall Community Trust is a fantastic organisation; Sean Daly’s team has done really good work there. Football club community trusts all over the country are key parts of their communities, and we need to support them in the work that they do.

The Government’s announcement of a strategy to combat violence against women and girls is welcome, but there is no timescale and many of the measures listed have already been brought into force so it would be good if the Minister could tell us more about what is proposed and give us some sense of the timescale that the Government are working to, because that is not very clear from the papers released so far. We on these Benches want to support the Government in tackling this huge problem in our society.

We support measures to give victims stronger rights, although I note that the Bill coming before us is a draft Bill. While it is good to carefully consider proposals, this is taking a very long time. I hope that in this Session we can make some real progress.

I have lost count of the number of immigration Bills we have had since I joined this House in 2010. Their frequency seems to be one in every Queen’s Speech. It is matched only by the frequency of planning Bills. What this tells me is that we have a Government who talk tough but who fail to deliver on the pledges they have made, and who preside over an incompetent and chaotic system, all of their own making. No one can suggest that the Windrush Compensation Scheme is going well. Look at the dangerous situation we have in the English Channel. Where is that comprehensive deal they keep talking about with France? What about the closure of the Dubs scheme, where only a few children have been beneficiaries? This is not the way to tackle these issues. I accept that they are challenging, but the solutions should be underpinned by agreement, firmness, fairness, competence and compassion, none of which is on display if we look at the proposals from the Government today.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, made reference to the need to update the law to combat modern slavery. I agree with those calls for change.

I further add to the calls made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, who is not in his place, to do more for victims. That is exactly right. When that Bill comes forward again, I hope that the Government look at those calls. If we can only match what has been done in Scotland and in Northern Ireland on these matters, we will be doing a good job. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, who is also not in his place, made a great contribution to improving the laws there in Northern Ireland.

In terms of legacy issues, the Government must honour their commitments made to families and to victims. People need to learn the truth of what happened to their loved ones. The process must be rooted in the rule of law and based on support for victims and communities in Northern Ireland. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, will be able to set out what the proposals in the Queen’s Speech will deliver. We need some clarity there. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, made reference to the Ballymurphy families, who fought for justice for five decades. His description—that they received the official government apology from the Prime Minister by email—is appalling, and contrasts poorly with the way David Cameron apologised to victims following the publication of the Bloody Sunday inquiry reports.

The online harms Bill is very welcome as far as it goes, but it has taken a long time to get this far. We are still talking about only a draft Bill, as my noble friend Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede made reference to. I very much support the aims of the Government to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online, with no safe space for criminal conduct or activity, to protect children from abuse, to protect us all from scams, to protect us all from fake news, misinformation and disinformation, and to make platforms face up to their responsibilities. Every time action is called for, the missing piece is the platform—the host not doing enough to tackle the menace that is the awful, corrosive, illegal and criminal side of the internet.

As my noble friend Lord Ponsonby said, the decision of the Government to hold back on criminal sanctions for directors is most regrettable. The most direct way to get powerful executives to take some action is to place responsibility firmly in their laps.

Look at the damage that has been done to people’s health and safety by conspiracy theories—the absolute rubbish that has undermined the Covid vaccination programme around the world. The reality is that vaccination is the only way out of the pandemic, not just in the UK; we need the whole world vaccinated. That is the route of safety to get us all back to something that represents the normality that we were used to.

We need urgent progress in this Session; we need a bold vision for safety, security and the protection of our citizens, putting measures in place to give people the confidence to thrive. What we get from the Government falls far short of that; it is particularly frustrating and disappointing to see proposals that are welcome but where the pace of change and reform is so slow. The draft victims Bill and the draft online harms Bill are two examples of where the Government have dragged their feet on proposals which we all agree are urgent and necessary.

In conclusion, there are measures that we support but where we want the Government to go further, and there are others that we have grave concerns about. However, as we always do, on these Benches we will work constructively with the Government to improve the legislation that comes before us.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, has said, with the best will in the world, much of the legislation that this House passes will be ineffective if judges do not understand the issues. Sadly, in some cases—albeit a limited number—it is clear that they do not understand the issues surrounding domestic abuse, in particular, coercive control, rape and sexual abuse, despite current training.

To the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I would say that there is a difference between outputs and outcomes. I am not sure whether this is an appropriate analogy, but I know from my own experience of race relations training, for example, that the cultural shift needed is difficult to achieve. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and, at times, the training of the judiciary has failed the test. Despite the Minister’s assertion, I fail to understand how mandating such training without dictating the specific content can be contrary to the principle of judicial independence, as my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames has said.

However, we are grateful for the reassurances that the Government have given as a result of the concerted efforts by the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, and my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we on these Benches support the intention behind the noble Baroness’s amendment. The case for improved training is well made. The amendment’s wording does not dictate what the training should be but puts the requirement for it in the Bill. Around the House, I think that we can all agree on the need for updated, quality training and to ensure that it happens.

I have said many times that this is a good Bill and will be a good Act of Parliament, but it is important that everything is done to ensure that all aspects of the law are correct. That includes ensuring that our judges and magistrates are properly trained. We owe that to victims, because domestic abuse is something that we now talk about in the country and in the House. That was not the case many years ago and we should not just assume that judges and magistrates completely understand the issues. That is why it is important that we get the training right.

I accept entirely the point the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, makes about judicial independence. I think we all support that, but there have been one or two occasions at the other end of the building when other parts of the Conservative Party were not so keen on judicial independence, when the judge made a decision that they did not like—we should get that on the record. It is not always the case that there is a great call of support for judicial independence, but I will leave the point there. I do not in any way bring the noble Lord into that; I have the highest respect for him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, it really is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for reasons that will become apparent, not least because we are three non-lawyers in a row.

On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, wondered whether I was accusing the Government of being misogynistic, following on from what the noble Baroness has just said. I say very clearly that that is not what I said or intended to say. I shall clarify. The essence of misogyny, as I understand it, is hatred of women who fail to comply with the sexist stereotype of a compliant, subordinate woman—hatred of women who stand up for themselves. I am not accusing the Government of hating women, but in my opinion there are echoes of that view of women being subordinate in their approach to this issue.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, has said, on the face of it the Government’s refusal to extend the so-called householder defence to victims of domestic abuse who use disproportionate force against their abusers in self-defence in the same way that a householder is allowed to use disproportionate force against an intruder appears to smack of the view that men should stand and fight but women should run away.

I do not intend to go over the arguments that I made at previous stages of the Bill; suffice it to say that I do not believe the Government’s arguments hold water. As a result, I am led to the conclusions that I have expressed. I would not be averse to the Government repealing the so-called householder defence, but I believe that to allow predominantly male householders to avail themselves of such a defence while not extending it to predominantly women victims of domestic abuse is inconsistent and incompatible.

While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, about Lords Amendment 38, in my view the Government’s approach is again inconsistent. The law specifically provides a statutory defence to victims of modern slavery when those victims are compelled to commit an offence, even though there is an existing common-law defence of duress. When it comes to victims of domestic abuse who are compelled to commit an offence as a result of such abuse, the Government argue that the existing common-law defence of duress is sufficient. Either the existing common-law defence of duress is sufficient for both victims of domestic abuse and victims of modern slavery or it is not. In my view, the Government should not be able to have it both ways.

Clearly, these anomalies need to be addressed. Motion D1 provides for an independent review of defences for those who offend due to domestic abuse, which we support. The review of sentencing as suggested by the Government does not appear to us to go far enough.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws set out in detail the case for her amendments in Committee and on Report, and it is disappointing that they have been rejected by the other place. In response, she has tabled Motion D1 in her name. As we have heard, she is seeking an independent review to look at the issues that we have been talking about throughout our consideration of these matters. I think that is the right way forward.

I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, is resisting the new Motion from my noble friend, but she made the point, as have others, that if the Government are resisting the issues raised in the amendment, he ought to address the question of whether they could be looked at by the review of sentencing—or is that a step too far for the Government?

There is a huge issue here. I recall the debates that we had when my noble friend and others presented harrowing cases. There is a real point here: if there is an intruder in someone’s house then, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, often a male can defend himself there and has a defence, but a woman attacked by her partner in her own home, which should be a place of safety, cannot rely on such a defence. That cannot be right.

The Bill is seeking to address the whole issue of domestic abuse in all its various facets. It is a good Bill, but it would be an even better one if we could make sure that all the gaps were plugged here. The fact is that women in their own homes, their place of safety, can often find themselves in very dangerous situations. If they have to defend themselves and end up injuring or killing their partner, we should understand that and ensure that they have the proper defences to take account of the difficult situation that they have found themselves in, often over many years. After all, these things escalate; they do not happen overnight.

My noble friend has identified an important point here, and I hope that when the Minister responds he can address it. We need to find a way to look at the issues that my noble friend raised in the review of sentencing, as he referred to in his earlier remarks.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am again grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to these exchanges. Right at the start, I say that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, was spot on when she characterised my position as disagreeing but sympathising—that is absolutely right. For the reasons that I have set out, I disagree but sympathise with the aims of the amendments.

Like the noble Baroness, I found the meeting with the representatives from the Centre for Women’s Justice extremely helpful. I have read a lot of material that they have produced, and, in particular, like her, I found the conversation with the survivor who joined us extremely powerful. Like my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge, we have to remember that, while we may be debating what sometimes seem here to be quite dry and technical issues of law, there are real people—if I may use that terrible phrase—and, in this case, real victims of domestic abuse, who are affected. The House can be assured that I have that at the very front of my thinking.

I will not go over the substantive points that I made—I hope I am excused for that. As I explained, the review is of sentencing in domestic homicide cases, but it is a broad review. The terms of reference are still being developed, but it will look at the impact of defences on sentencing, and, while I appreciate that that is not as far as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, would like me to go, I hope that it is an indication of the seriousness with which the Government take this matter and, in particular, the review of sentencing.

I pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. We respectfully disagree that there is a read-over to either the householder or the trafficking issue. As to the latter, I have made clear on previous occasions that we have concerns with the way that that defence is used in practice. Indeed, if I remember correctly, one of Her Majesty’s judges recently explained that in a case that he was hearing in, I think, Bradford—I may be misremembering that. As such, there is an issue as to how that trafficking offence is applied in practice.

Like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, I am well aware that there is a substantial proportion of women in prison who have themselves been victims of domestic abuse—that is of course why a review of sentencing is so important. Without being trite, they are in prison because they were given a prison sentence; therefore, a focus on sentencing in the review is entirely appropriate.

I do not know whether there is anything I can do to help the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, in her apparent dichotomy between lawyers on the one hand and common sense on the other. The point I was making about the majority in the other place was actually that it was not the standard government majority, so to speak: it was a significant majority—with the greatest respect, that is something that this House ought to bear in mind. However, my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge did perhaps solve an age-old conundrum about a justification for the existence of lawyers, particularly in Parliament. He even came close to giving an explanation for their possible utility, so I am grateful to him for that.

My noble friend was also right when he said that people should not go to prison if they have been convicted of a crime that they were forced to commit—“forced” is a critical word, and that is where you get into the defence of duress. However, as I said, it is not only the question of the defence of duress: if there is a conviction, the nature of the force—if it does not amount to a defence—would still be relevant to sentencing and to mitigation.

As such, I hope that I have set out the reasons why the Government disagree. I hope that I have also responded to the particular point put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, on the scope of the review. However, for the reasons that I have set out, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, will indeed not press her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, we have had some immensely knowledgeable, cogent and passionate contributions tonight, particularly from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friend Lady Brinton.

Several noble Lords have referred to National Stalking Awareness Week and, like others, I was greatly heartened to hear the Secretary of State, Robert Buckland, say that he would do what he could to address this issue. He has campaigned for years on stalking so, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said: why vote against the amendment considering what would be achieved by it?

There is a well-known saying—I am not the only one who can trot out the old things—which is, “Do what you’ve always done, and you’ll get what you’ve always got.” In 2012, the stalking law inquiry report recommended exactly what this amendment, retabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, would do. Since 2012, the Government have insisted time after time that the implementation of the rules is the issue, not making recording mandatory. Victoria Atkins said last week:

“The real issue … is not the statutory framework but how it is applied”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/4/21; col. 522.]

In this case, doing “what you’ve always done” has not even got us to where we used to get, as the harrowing figures given to us have demonstrated. Clearly, from the testimonies of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, my noble friend Lady Brinton and others, what we have now is worse than ever. From a pre-pandemic level of about two women being murdered per week, that number has more than doubled—with 16 since the Report stage of this Bill. You can be sure that all the gradations of fear, pain and misery proportionately cascaded all the way down the line. Why will the Government not be brave enough to do something different with the changes contained in these amendments?

We know that the danger comes with an escalation from minor offences to major ones. Stalkers can be helped, but, without a co-ordinated effort to identify them at an early stage, the real danger they pose may come too late. The Government’s alternative is not strong enough, although I acknowledge they are trying hard to do something with their own amendment and that is greatly appreciated.

We have heard many harrowing testimonies over the course of these amendments. No one in your Lordships’ House wants to have to hear the sickening details of another one—no “DVAOA”, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, said—no “déjà vu all over again”. While I welcome the government amendments, including MAPPS as opposed to MAPPA, my party and I are fully behind the amendment put by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. We will support her if she sees fit to push it to a vote.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Government have accepted that a perpetrator strategy should be in the Bill and have brought forward their own amendment. As far as it goes, it is pleasing to see that and I am happy to welcome it—but their amendment completely ignores the key provisions of my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon’s amendment: that there must be concrete plans for the management and monitoring of serial domestic abuse perpetrators and stalkers. I am pleased that my noble friend has tabled Motion G1, and these Benches will support her if she decides to divide the House.

My noble friend’s amendment is clear, simple and effective. It would add serial abusers and perpetrators to the existing MAPPA system. My noble friend has made a compelling case today and on previous occasions. I agree that this amendment would provide further protection to victims living in fear and having to hide away. It is outrageous that people have to hide away from abusive partners or ex-partners, at risk of attack, and we must do everything we possibly can to ensure that these perpetrators are effectively managed and controlled. That is what we need to do today.