Criminal Justice Reform

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

Today, the Government’s White Paper on criminal justice reform, “Swift and Sure Justice: the Government’s Plans for Reform of Criminal Justice” has been laid before Parliament.

The White Paper sets out a programme of reform which builds on some of the lessons learned from the response to last year’s disturbances, during which the police, prosecutors and courts worked together—and offenders were brought to justice within days, sometimes even hours.

The programme focuses on the points where work passes between the agencies and is designed to enable them to work together more effectively to deliver services which are:

swift: so that the low level, straightforward and uncontested cases are dealt with promptly and efficiently; and

sure: so that the system grips offenders at an early stage, preventing the slide into more serious offending.

The White Paper sets out for example, how we are already making better use of technology and managing cases more efficiently. It also sets out proposals for a new role for magistrates, reinforcing their historic role in community justice. From November, Police and Crime Commissioners will be in place to help galvanise local police, prosecution, courts and other agencies to work together to prevent crime and reduce reoffending.

The reforms aim to transform criminal justice from a fragmented, paper based system into a seamless, streamlined service. They complement the wider reforms to crime and justice we are taking forward to improve policing, to tackle anti-social behaviour, to introduce more effective punishments and community sentences, and to deliver better services for victims.

Taken together, they are the foundation of our strategy to reduce crime and the victims it creates.

Firearms (England and Wales 2010-11)

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The latest figures from 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 show that:

The number of police operations in which firearms were authorised was 17,209—a decrease of 1,347 (7%) on the previous year.

The number of authorised firearms officers (AFO’s) was 6,653—a decrease of 326 (5%) officers overall on the previous year.

The number of operations involving armed response vehicles was 13,346—a decrease of 743 (6%) on the previous year.

The Police discharged a conventional firearm in three incidents (down from six incidents in 2009-10).

Full details are set out in the tables below:

Independent Police Complaints Commission

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

I am pleased to announce that today my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury and I are publishing the annual report of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). Copies of the report have been laid before the House and will be available in the Vote Office.

This is the eighth annual report from the IPCC. The report covers the work of the IPCC during 2011-12 and includes a discrete chapter on the discharge of its responsibilities in respect of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

4. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on providing high-quality services for women within the criminal justice system following the election of police and crime commissioners.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The Ministry of Justice has been working with the Home Office to ensure that local areas are prepared for the introduction of police and crime commissioners, who will have duties to work with local criminal justice bodies, including in relation to the provision of women’s services.

[Bridget Phillipson]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer, but the proposal to devolve some victims’ services to police and crime commissioners is not without risk. What will he do to ensure a minimum standard of provision throughout the country, regardless of the area in which the victim lives?

[Nick Herbert]

First, it is important to point out that some specialist services, such as the homicide service, rape crisis centres and so on, will continue to be commissioned nationally, but we think it right in principle that elected police and crime commissioners should commission victims’ services locally. It will mean that there is a champion for victims in every single area; it will ensure the greater integration of such services with the police, who have a very important duty in relation to victims; and it will be for elected police and crime commissioners, accountable to the public, to ensure that they provide a high-quality service to victims.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

In March, in recognition of the specific problems that women experience in prison, the Government committed to deliver a document setting out the strategic priorities for women in the criminal justice system. When will it be published, and how will it link with the work that Louise Casey is doing on troubled families and, of course, the work of elected police and crime commissioners?

[Nick Herbert]

The stock answer to all such questions is “in due course”, but my right hon. Friend is right that we need to ensure that such services are integrated. There is important work going on in the local criminal justice system in relation to women’s offending. Police and crime commissioners will have a role, in liaison with the local criminal justice agencies. The troubled families work being led by Louise Casey is very important in efforts to prevent crime. I believe that police and crime commissioners will be in a strong position to ensure local coherence in work to divert people from the criminal justice system and from crime.

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

In his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), who has considerable experience in providing victims services, the Minister confirmed that there will be no minimum standards for victims. To give just one example, two thirds of victims of stalking said that the police and the Crown Prosecution Service did not take their complaint seriously, and offenders are not charged in almost nine in every 10 cases. There is a risk of specialist services falling between the cracks—looking after the detail makes a difference—and such services are not likely to win PCC votes. Will the Minister consider intervening if the loss of specialist services for women continues after the election of PCCs?

[Nick Herbert]

But the whole point of the change is to ensure that there will be accountability for the provision of victims services, which will lie at local level with people who are already responsible for the police and who will be champions for victims. The cross-party Association of Police and Crime Commissioners has already welcomed the proposal, and the youth charity Catch22 says it believes that police and crime commissioners generally have the potential to bring real coherence at the local level to the planning and commissioning of services designed to reduce and prevent crime and support victims. I am sorry that Opposition Front Benchers do not support what I believe is a very good idea that will strength victims services at the local level.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that community women offender facilities, in which this Government have invested substantially, provide a real alternative to custody for many women in the criminal justice system?

[Nick Herbert]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The number of women in custody has been declining, in contrast with the number of men. We have been developing intensive treatment-based alternatives to custody for offenders with drug or mental health problems, including four women-only services in Wirral, Bristol, Birmingham and Tyneside. They are an important part of our strategy to ensure that offending by women is dealt with as effectively and appropriately as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

10. What plans he has to protect and enhance the powers of the magistracy.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The Government will shortly publish plans on improving the criminal justice system, including by reinforcing the important role of magistrates.

[Jesse Norman]

The magistracy is one of the great glories of the English legal system, and Hereford magistrates court is a case in point. Will the Minister give some reassurance that there are no plans to change the services at Hereford magistrates court or to close it?

[Nick Herbert]

I agree with my hon. Friend about the value of magistrates. They are lay people who give of their time, and the community justice that they dispense is an important feature of our criminal justice system. That is too little acknowledged. As the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) said, we continually review the estate to ensure that it is well utilised, but we have no current plans to close Hereford magistrates court.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that over many years and under many Governments the magistracy has been run down? It has been run down because so many local courts have been closed. Once the link between being a magistrate and the local community is broken, it no longer works. What is he going to do about that?

[Nick Herbert]

The hon. Gentleman should reflect on the fact that one of the issues that magistrates are most concerned about is the growth of out-of-court disposals, which soared under the last Government in response to the target culture. We continue to have concerns about the inappropriate use of such disposals. He should reflect on the role of the previous Government in undermining the magistracy.

[Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

11. What progress he has made with his proposals on regulation of bailiff services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

16. What steps his Department is taking to implement the recommendations of the final report of the riots communities and victims panel.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The Government welcome the final report from the independent riots communities and victims panel and will publish a formal response in due course.

[Simon Hughes]

This very good report made some very good recommendations to the Ministry of Justice, including for more effective community sentencing—specifically, that communities should choose the projects and that the results, including reoffending rates, should be published. Will Ministers be positive about those recommendations? I am sure it would be appreciated.

[Nick Herbert]

I think we will be positive about exactly that kind of proposal—we have already published formal consultation proposals to strengthen community sentences, which was one of the recommendations in the report. That is important, because the report itself drew attention to the fact that those who were brought before the courts in relation to the riots had 11 previous convictions, which showed that the justice system had not been effective in dealing with such problem offending.

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T8. In thanking my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice for visiting a community payback scheme in Kettering on 18 June, may I ask whether he agrees that the work we saw being undertaken was both worth while and sufficiently arduous to prevent future reoffending?

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

Yes. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for inviting me to Kettering to see that scheme. The offenders were wearing fluorescent jackets to identify them as people doing work on behalf of the community. They were working hard constructing a path alongside a river, which will be of huge value to the community and would not have been constructed but for that work. That shows that we can make community payback an effective and meaningful punishment on behalf of the community.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

T5. Professor Harrington, the independent reviewer of the work capability assessment, has highlighted the fact that Department for Work and Pensions officials are not routinely given feedback when appellants’ appeals have been successful, which means that they cannot improve practice. Why not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

T7. My constituent Sam Taylor has been subjected to, and still lives in fear of, the most terrible harassment from her ex-partner. The new offences relating to stalking represent real progress, but Sam’s case shows that serious work still needs to be done on the ground to ensure that she and her family can be properly protected. Will the Minister meet Sam, along with the chief superintendent of Sussex police and me, to hear why she remains concerned?

[Nick Herbert]

I would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss that issue.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

On 4 September, the European Court of Human Rights will hear the case of Nadia Eweida v. the United Kingdom Government. I understand that the Government are resisting the case. Miss Eweida is the lady who effectively lost her job with British Airways for wearing a cross, a symbol of her religion, at work. Is it any part of the British Government’s policy to support the denial of people’s religious rights at work? If not, will we reconsider our position on that case?

Police (Surrey)

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

Welcome to the Chair, Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on his forceful speech and on securing the debate and the support of his colleagues. I take Members who represent Surrey constituencies seriously when they hunt in a pack, as they have done today, and will pay the closest attention to what they say.

I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the Surrey force, which is ably led by its new chief constable. It emerged with a good review, from the report issued yesterday by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, of how it is dealing with the inevitable reductions in spending that the Government have asked police forces to make. The review said that the force has a good history of bringing down costs and changing how services are delivered. It began to transform how it operates in 2009, before the 2010 comprehensive spending review. As a result, it is in a good position to achieve its savings target by 2015.

The force has plans in place that, if delivered, will achieve 100% of the £27 million-worth of savings that it is required to make between 2011 and 2015. In making those savings, and in contrast to every other force, Surrey plans to increase the number of police officers by 50—that is a 3% increase compared with other forces, which are losing officers. It is the only force in the country able to do that over the spending review period. Within that total, the force is reducing the number of officers in more senior ranks by not replacing retiring managers, and increasing the number of constables by up to 200. Surrey also plans to increase the number of police community support officers by 50, while reducing the number of police staff by some 8%.

That all means that, by 2015, 80% of Surrey’s work force will be on the front line, which is a considerably higher proportion than most other forces, where the average is about two thirds. In common with other forces, Surrey is increasing the proportion of its police officers on the front line from 78% to 90%, which is exactly what I think the public want to see.

On outcomes, crime is still decreasing in Surrey, although at a slightly lower rate than in England and Wales as a whole. It is important that the force maintains its focus in adapting to the changed spending environment and continues to deliver a high-quality service to the public and to reduce crime, which is, of course, the most important outcome for members of the public. My hon. Friend drew attention to the particular circumstances of Surrey’s funding and set out the ways in which he believes Surrey is disadvantaged. First, he mentioned that Surrey has raised a much higher proportion of its funding from its local precept than other forces; indeed, I think it raises more of its money from the local precept than any other force in England and Wales. There is a greater call on local taxpayers than in other parts of the country, but equally, Surrey has been relatively protected from the reduction in central Government funding. The forces that raise less money from their precept have suffered a proportionately greater reduction in funding than those that raised more, such as Surrey. That is merely a statement of the fact.

Let me elaborate. By 2012-13, the current financial year, Surrey was raising nearly half its overall funding from the precept. When we were allocating the funding for all forces in England and Wales at the beginning of the spending review period, a question arose. Since other forces were going to be affected to a greater extent by not raising more money from the local precept, should they have a lower reduction in their spending than forces such as Surrey? It was argued, including in this Chamber, by various hon. Members whose constituencies are policed by the forces concerned, that it would be wrong to penalise them when forces such as Surrey were more able to withstand the reduction in central funding.

The Government took the view that it was not right in principle to penalise local taxpayers for the fact that they were already contributing more for their local policing service. At the time, forces, police authorities and chief constables were expecting a 20% reduction in central Government funding. We had not indicated or confirmed that it would be an even 20% reduction for each force, so it was open to us to adjust the amount according to the money that was raised through the precept. Through the damping mechanism, we decided that the equitable solution, taking all factors into account, was to do what they expected us to do, which was to use the damping mechanism to achieve an even reduction in funding for all forces, including Surrey. From that point of view, I do not believe that Surrey was disadvantaged by our decision.

[Sir Paul Beresford]

The Minister will be aware that after Labour entered government in 1997, the tendency to shift money away from the south and south-east was to such a degree that even the Audit Commission commented on it. That included local government, schools, the national health service and the police. His argument is based on a funding formula that we want reviewed because it is flawed. We feel that we need a review. The damping stays, and after the review, he will have to have another form of damping, because he will have the arguments much the same way, but at least Surrey will be getting what we anticipate to be a fair share of the cake.

[Nick Herbert]

I hear what my hon. Friend says, but I disagree that the formula is not fit for purpose. It allocates funding according to need. The Government’s position is that we wish to move towards a full application of the formula. The question is not whether we do that, but at what rate and how. It would have been a great deal easier for the previous Government to move to full application of the formula and away from the distorting effects of damping when there were increases in funding for all forces. It is a great deal harder to do that when funding for forces is declining. Had we done so, some forces that benefit from damping, including Surrey—to the extent of an additional £3.2 million in the current financial year, as my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton pointed out—would have seen a greater reduction in central Government funding.

For the reasons that I have set out, we felt that the equitable approach was not to move away from damping towards full application of the formula in the first two years of the spending review. However, we reserved our position in relation to years three and four. I have just consulted police authorities about what we should do regarding damping in those years. That consultation has just closed, and we will analyse the responses carefully. I will not prejudge our decision, but the points expressed by my hon. Friends the Members for Esher and Walton and for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) are well made.

[Jonathan Lord]

If the current funding formula truly reflects need, why do Surrey taxpayers, in addition to all the taxes that they pay nationally, have to pay the highest precept in the country? The Minister has already accepted that we have an excellent and efficient force.

[Nick Herbert]

The formula takes into account the need in an area. Taking a step back, if we look at the other end of the spectrum, towards a force in an urban area, where there is particular social deprivation, much higher levels of crime and all the complexities that arise because of that, it is obvious that the need is higher, and the formula reflects that. I accept that there has been a greater call on local taxpayers as a result of the amount provided to Surrey by central Government, but my point is that our decisions on spending reductions for all forces in years one and two, far from disadvantaging Surrey, treated all forces evenly, because those that raise much less from their council tax would have seen a much greater reduction in funding.

I should point out that Surrey has increased its precept in the current financial year. It has chosen not to freeze the precept, despite the Government’s offer. That increases the funding for the force. If Surrey were to increase its precept again in the last two years of the spending review, assuming the increases suggested by the Office for Budget Responsibility and no change in the current damping arrangements, the real terms reduction in funding over the whole spending review period would be just over 10%, which does not approach the 20% suggested for other forces. That is a 1.4% reduction in cash terms. Surrey is therefore in a relatively advantageous position, enabling it, for instance, to increase its officer numbers. Even if Surrey does not increase the precept in the last two years, the real-terms reduction in overall funding will be about 13%, or less than 5% in cash terms.

I am just stating the factual position that, as local taxpayers have been forced to contribute more, which I accept, Surrey has been relatively protected from central Government funding reductions over the past two years. The consequence is that it has not had the reductions in police officer numbers that other forces have had to make. Nevertheless, my hon. Friends have made strong points about the application of damping, and I will take those into careful consideration when I decide what to do in years three and four of the spending review. Their points about damping and the application of the formula were well made, and I assure them that they will be noted.

Policing (Devon and Cornwall)

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) on securing the debate. I note that, while my hon. Friend has been here to speak with conviction about the importance of local policing and his own police force, supported by others on our side of the Chamber, no Labour Members are present on either the Front or the Back Benches to take part in this short debate.

My hon. Friend began by referring to the importance of the police service, and the importance of ensuring that its members—both staff and officers, as he made clear—feel appreciated. I strongly agree. It is important that this House constantly repeats that we value the British police service, that it is, indeed, the finest service in the world, and that we appreciate the role police officers play—which we do. It is also true that, as my hon. Friend recognised, we are having to take some difficult decisions to deal with the economic deficit, and policing must play its part. I will come on to that.

My hon. Friend made it clear that the Devon and Cornwall force can be proud of the fact that it is delivering for local people one of the lowest crime rates in the country. It has, in fact, the fourth lowest crime rate of all forces in England and Wales. That is not to say that there are not particular challenges, including the more recent ones to which my hon. Friend referred. It remains true that Devon and Cornwall is a relatively safe place to live, however, and that is thanks to the work of the police force and its partner agencies that help to deliver reductions in crime. It is also true that the force is highly thought of. It has higher satisfaction rates than other forces. Those who work in the Devon and Cornwall force can be proud of that.

Police forces have to play their part in our effort to reduce the deficit, and Devon and Cornwall is no exception. We have had to reduce central funding for police forces by 20% in real terms over the four years of the spending review, but it is important to note that not all funding for the police service comes from that central fund; some of it comes from local sources, and the police authority increased the precept by 2% for this year. Were the precept to continue to increase for the next two years—that will in future be for the elected police and crime commissioner for Devon and Cornwall to decide—the real reduction in resources would be 14%, or about 5.5% in cash terms. That is a challenging reduction, but it is manageable. Even if the precept were not increased, the real reduction would be 16%, so it is not a 20% reduction, as some have claimed. No force in England is suffering that level of reduction in funding, in fact.

Forces must find ways to make that reduction in spending while protecting the quality of their service. The Devon and Cornwall force is determined to do that. It has made a particular commitment to try to protect neighbourhood policing, which is highly valued by the public. That is a visible and available form of policing, in which Devon and Cornwall has to make some progress in comparison with other forces.

My hon. Friend said that police officers feel they are contributing more than their fair share in dealing with the deficit. I do not accept that. Savings have had to be made across the public sector, including in services with which the police work. Police officers will therefore be aware that other services have had to contribute savings. None of these decisions is easy, but the national priority must be to reduce the deficit, which this Government are successfully doing.

It is true that the reduction in spending in Devon and Cornwall will mean a reduction in police numbers. That is not desirable, of course. None of us wants police forces to have to reduce police numbers—albeit from a peak, it must be said. That is a reality, however. Every force is seeking to ensure that those reductions do not impinge on the front-line service.

It is pleasing that the senior leadership of the force are clear that they are determined to maintain that quality of service provision. Indeed, I note that on 12 March, the assistant chief constable of Devon and Cornwall, Paul Netherton, said:

“We have delivered an even better service than before, and we are getting to more jobs faster than before. In terms of service to the public, we have improved, despite having to deal with the consequences of a very challenging budget situation.”

It is important that that service quality be maintained, but it is also important that crime continues to be tackled. My hon. Friend rightly drew attention to his concern that there were signs that crime has increased over recent months in Devon and Cornwall, and the latest official figures showed a slight increase. That is in contrast to the majority of forces in England and Wales, so it is not possible to link that increase with the reduction in force numbers and police numbers, because that has happened to other forces as well, yet they have continued to reduce crime.

Devon and Cornwall know that they face a challenge and that they need to get back on top of crime and deliver the reductions in crime that we saw in the previous three years. At a time when the force is restructuring, yes, that is challenging, but the force’s senior leadership and everybody who works in it know that they have to rise to that challenge. We will expect the elected police and crime commissioner representing the people of Devon and Cornwall from November to attend to that in ensuring that the force’s past performance is restored.

I should note that of those forces that are most similar to Devon and Cornwall—so there is a fair size comparison—Cambridgeshire, for example, has experienced a 5.4% fall in police officer numbers, which is about the same as Devon and Cornwall, but it successfully delivered a 9% reduction in crime in the last year. Wiltshire has reduced overall crime by 5%, while at the same time officer numbers fell by 5.9%. So it can be done, and it is being done by other forces. Of course, the circumstances of each force are different, but it is important that that performance be maintained.

My hon. Friend mentioned the various issues relating to the funding formula. Other forces make the point about visitors and I am certainly willing to have a look at that, although it might be difficult to adjust the funding formula and to work out how that could be done. However, this issue does affect other forces as well.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Herbert]

I am afraid I have only two minutes left, if my hon. Friend will forgive me.

On damping, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall mentioned, the Government are consulting stakeholders about our decisions on damping for the final two years of this spending review period. Devon and Cornwall should make their representations known, if they have not already done so; they have until 29 June. We are looking at this issue and there are some forces, such as Devon and Cornwall, that lose through the damping process, while others gain. These are therefore very difficult decisions to take, but our long-term ambition remains to move away from the application of damping towards the full application of the formula, which would be fair and right. The question is how to do that in a fair manner when there have to be spending reductions for forces.

Overall, Devon and Cornwall have a spend of £181 per head of population, including central costs, which is similar to the forces’ peer average of £178. So overall, the force is not losing in terms of spend.

On the morale of police officers, we are committed to ensuring that police officers remain the best paid among the emergency services—and so they should be, reflecting the unique nature of the job they do—and committed to valuing police officers. We will ensure that changes are negotiated properly, and the Government will follow the proper negotiating procedures and ensure that we treat officers fairly and value them as we should. My hon. Friend said that we are fortunate to have the policing and the police service that we do in this country, and so we are, not least in Devon and Cornwall.

Question put and agreed to.

Undercover Policing

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

May I say what a surprise, but nevertheless what a great pleasure, it is to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies? I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate. I am grateful to her for raising some of these issues, because it gives me an opportunity to set out the Government’s response. I recognise that the issues she has raised are serious.

Undercover operations are sometimes necessary to protect the public and to prevent or detect crime. We should commend the difficult and often dangerous job performed by undercover officers. However, in the light of recent cases and concerns, including those raised by the hon. Lady, it is right to ask two principal questions that we must be able to answer with confidence. First, is there a system for ensuring that the use of police undercover deployment is consistent with human rights legislation, particularly the right to privacy and the right to a fair trial? Secondly, is the system working sufficiently well for the particular type of undercover deployment that has led to concerns, or do we need to take action to improve it and ensure that it provides the required assurance?

Before I consider those two fundamental questions, it is important to point out that the deployment of Bob Lambert, a case raised by the hon. Lady, took place in the 1990s, before the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000—or RIPA, as it is known—was implemented. RIPA is the legislative framework that enables police and other public authorities using covert human intelligence sources, such as undercover officers, to ensure that they act in compliance with their duties under the Human Rights Act. A “covert human intelligence source” is the label used by the legislation to describe anyone who establishes or maintains a relationship for a covert purpose. That applies to a member of the public who comes forward to volunteer information about someone and who is asked by a public authority to find out more. It applies to a public authority test purchaser who engages the confidence of a supplier to buy illicit goods. It also applies to a member of a law enforcement agency who goes undercover to infiltrate and to pass intelligence back to that agency about an organisation planning disruption or criminal acts.

[Mark Reckless]

Will the Minister clarify whether RIPA also applies to ACPO’s responsibility for an undercover officer and its status as a private company? Moreover, did ACPO have any involvement in the Lambert case, or did it become involved only in later operations?

[Nick Herbert]

I will clarify that point later, but my understanding is that the accountability lies with chief constables, not ACPO. I am aware of and share my hon. Friend’s concern about ACPO and its status. I hope and believe that it will be addressed, but if there is anything further to say about the matter, I will write to him.

[Mark Reckless]

I am thinking in particular of the environmental protests at Ratcliffe-on-Soar, where it emerged that ACPO was responsible for the management of undercover officers. I am delighted that, since then, Ministers have ensured the transfer of the powers involved to the Metropolitan police.

[Nick Herbert]

My hon. Friend is correct about the responsible unit, and that important change has enhanced accountability.

RIPA applies to each of the instances that I have mentioned, because the true nature of the relationship, which involves reporting back covertly to a public authority what has been said or done, is hidden from the other person or people being talked to. In every case, RIPA requires that authorisation is given only if it is necessary and proportionate. RIPA sets out who can make a decision to deploy a covert source and for what purpose the deployment might be made. RIPA codes of practice provide practical guidance on how best to apply the regulatory framework and how to observe the human rights principles behind authorisations. External oversight and inspection are provided by the chief surveillance commissioner, and independent right of redress is provided by an investigatory tribunal for anyone who believes that they have been treated unlawfully.

That is the system, which was not in place when Lambert was deployed, but does it work? The published annual reports of the chief surveillance commissioner indicate that, in the main, it does, but that has not always been the case. That was shown graphically by the independent report produced by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary earlier this year on the deployment of undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. It showed that there had been failings in the application of the existing system and safeguards, but it went further by making a number of recommendations for ACPO to strengthen both internal review and external quality assurance of undercover officers deployed against domestic extremism. It also invited the Home Secretary to consider the arrangements for authorising the undercover police operations that present the most significant risks of intrusion. In particular, it proposed raising the internal level of police authorisations for the long-term deployments of undercover police officers under RIPA, and establishing independent, external prior approval by the chief surveillance commissioner for long-term deployments of undercover police officers.

The Home Secretary welcomed the HMIC report, and since its publication the Home Office has been working with the inspectorate, ACPO, the chief surveillance commissioner and others on how best to implement its recommendations.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the situation as he sees it, but does RIPA allow undercover police to have sexual relationships with those they are trying to infiltrate? That is one of the points at issue: some say that it does and some say that it does not.

[Nick Herbert]

I will try to respond to the hon. Lady’s question before the end of my speech.

One factor is how we target the type of deployment that causes concern, without imposing an unnecessary or burdensome bureaucracy across a much wider field where the regime may be said to be working as Parliament intended. We need to ensure that we do not deter members of the public from coming forward to help the police in what can be difficult work. We also need to make sure that officers charged with sensitive, intrusive and dangerous policing in the community are given the support and protection they require. Above all, we need to avoid the mistakes identified in the HMIC report being made again. Our response, when we make it, will have that uppermost in mind.

On the hon. Lady’s call for a public inquiry, the independent HMIC review looked at the broad issues raised by the Kennedy case, and made clear recommendations as to how the system should be strengthened—a system that was not, in any case, in place when Lambert was deployed. We are considering our precise response to those recommendations. I do not think that it is necessary to conduct a public inquiry.

The hon. Lady raised a number of specific issues, one of which was whether RIPA can be used to authorise a covert human intelligence source to break the law. In a very limited range of circumstances, an authorisation under RIPA part II may render lawful conduct that would otherwise be criminal, if it is incidental to any conduct falling within the Act that the source is authorised to undertake. That depends, however, on the circumstances of each individual case, and consideration should always be given to seeking advice from the legal adviser of the relevant public authority when such activity is contemplated. A covert human intelligence source who acts beyond the limits recognised by the law will be at risk of prosecution, and the need to protect the covert human intelligence source cannot alter that principle.

The RIPA statutory guidance does not explicitly cover the matter of sexual relationships, but it does make it clear that close management and control should be exercised by the undercover officer’s management team. That will be a relevant factor. The absence of such management gave rise to concern in the Kennedy case.

[Caroline Lucas]

Does the Minister agree that that sort of fudged, grey area means that for women who have had such an experience, and for women and, indeed, men who might have such an experience in the future, this is incredibly unsatisfactory? We simply do not have clear guidelines on whether the action and going that far are legitimate, and that undermines confidence in the system. The Minister has referred to other inquiries that have been conducted, but what has not been conducted is a public, overarching inquiry to consider all the relevant areas.

Moreover, the Minister’s response to the case of Bob Lambert is extraordinarily complacent. Yes, RIPA was not in place at that point, so there can be no criticism that its guidance was not followed, but what is the Minister going to do now, given that the issue is in the public domain and that there could have been serious miscarriages of justice? How will he follow up on that case in particular?

[Nick Herbert]

I am happy to pursue the matter further with the hon. Lady, if she likes, but I am not persuaded that it would be appropriate to issue specific statutory guidance under RIPA about sexual relationships. What matters is that there is a general structure and system of proper oversight and control, rather than specific directions on behaviour that may or may not be permitted. Moreover, to ban such actions would provide a ready-made test for the targeted criminal group to find out whether an undercover officer was deployed among them. Specifically forbidding the action would put the issue in the public domain and such groups would know that it could be tested.

The Government are certainly not complacent about the Lambert case. We were keen for an independent, wider review of the deployment of undercover officers by HMIC, which is now independent of the Government and reports to Parliament. We are satisfied that its recommendations will further strengthen the proper system of safeguards for the deployment of undercover officers that did not operate when Lambert was deployed.

Police Air Support (Collaboration Agreement)

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a draft of The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012.

This order requires the police service to collaborate in the provision of air support through a single collaboration agreement.

I have consulted the police service about the proposed order and, having carefully considered the responses received, I have decided to make the order.

In 2009 Bernard Hogan-Howe, then chief constable of Merseyside, carried out a review of the arrangements for police air support for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). This identified scope to rationalise the current patchwork of provision and make savings, as well as ensuring a consistent level of air support across England and Wales.

On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:

It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days a year—in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.

97% of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes’ flying time.

It will also save the police service £15 million per year when fully operational.

Chief constables of all forces in England and Wales have given their support to the proposal for NPAS. The vast majority of police authorities have also given support in principle. However, realisation of the full benefits available through NPAS depends upon the commitment of the whole of the police service in England and Wales. These proposals have been under discussion for over two years. It is time for the police service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach. This order will ensure such a focus.

While the Government have removed central targets from the police and are giving elected police and crime commissioners the power to set local strategic priorities, it has also introduced new powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to ensure that forces work effectively together. This is the first use of new powers brought in by the Act.

Investigation of Suicides

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on securing the debate. I pay tribute to her excellent work in the prevention of suicide through her role as chair of the all-party group on suicide and self-harm prevention. I am sure that her efforts have helped to keep the issue at the forefront of the political and public agenda. I am aware of her particular interest in such issues, following the spate of terrible deaths of young people in her constituency a few years ago. Every suicide is a tragic event, and it is hard to imagine how traumatic an experience it must be for the bereaved family and friends.

The Government take the issue seriously, and we are committed to suicide prevention. Last July, we published a consultation on preventing suicide in England, which set out a draft cross-departmental outcomes strategy to save lives. I understand that the Welsh Government have their own national action plan to reduce suicide and self-harm in Wales.

A whole range of factors come together to increase a person’s vulnerability to self-harm or suicide. The Government are committed to ensuring that the right support is in place for individuals who find themselves in such desperate situations. As part of a range of measures to reduce the suicide rate, the draft strategy highlighted the need for continuing to support the internet industry to remove content that encourages suicide and to provide ready access to suicide prevention services—a particular concern to the hon. Lady following the deaths in Bridgend.

The consultation ended on 11 October last year and received around 200 responses from a broad range of organisations and individuals. We are now considering all the responses received and intend to publish the final strategy later this year, so the hon. Lady’s intervention and list of suggestions are timely.

Turning to the role of the police, which is the specific topic that the hon. Lady has raised, it is important to set out the different but complementary roles of the police and coroners when there has been a sudden death. The coroner is an independent judicial officer who has a statutory duty to investigate every death where he or she has reason to suspect that it may have been violent, unnatural or of an unknown cause. The police have a duty to investigate all sudden deaths. They also act as coroners’ officers and are required to collect information and evidence that will enable the coroner to determine accurately the cause of death.

The police also have a core duty to establish whether a crime has been committed. Even when a death becomes no longer suspicious and appears explainable, they have an ongoing duty to assist the coroner by collecting and recording all available evidence for an inquest. Both the coroner and the police share the view that a suicide must never just be presumed, and they are diligent in their duty to establish unambiguous evidence that the deceased had intended to take his or her own life and to rule out other possibilities.

Training on how to deal with sudden deaths, including suicide, is mandatory for all police officers. Suicide is covered in training given to officers in a range of areas, including missing persons, coroners’ investigations and inquests and domestic abuse. Some forces have developed additional advice to police officers through local guidance or protocols on the investigation of sudden or unexplained death, including suicide.

It is the responsibility of the chief officer of each force to take appropriate steps to ensure that their staff receive appropriate training. They take that responsibility seriously and are alert to the need for their officers to behave with the utmost sensitivity and support when dealing with suicide. Nevertheless, I will certainly draw to the attention of the Association of Chief Police Officers the hon. Lady’s comments about the need for some kind of national guidance; about the booklet “Help is at Hand”, distribution of which she said is patchy; and about the Australian Mindframe programme that is issued to all police officers, about which I would certainly like to find out more.

We are in the process of setting up a professional body for policing, and this area is exactly the kind that that body would look at, because it is about standards in policing. We have to strike the right balance in deciding between what is appropriate to issue national guidance on and what is a matter for the police themselves to issue guidance on. That is consistent with our policy.

We want to hold the police accountable for the outcomes that they achieve, but to be less prescriptive in terms of Government direction about what they are doing. Our ambition is the same: to improve the service that the public receive. These are clearly very sensitive matters, and although it might not be appropriate to issue national Government guidance, that does not mean that it would be inappropriate for police guidance to be issued in the future by policing professional bodies. That is a matter that we can discuss and that I am open-minded about. I am conscious that we must be careful about adding to the burden of guidance.

The police coroner interface—the process by which a death is deemed not suspicious and is passed to the coroner, and through which evidence is shared—is important, as is the role of the police and other partners and organisations in supporting bereaved relatives. We accept that practice in those areas can vary across forces. That is why these issues are currently subject to discussion and review through a number of Government-led, cross-sector forums that want to improve the practice and investigations of sudden deaths and the support given to bereaved relatives. Representatives from ACPO are playing an active part in those discussions.

In November last year, the Government announced that they intend to proceed with the implementation of the office of the chief coroner, which will provide leadership and oversight of the coroner system. Once the chief coroner is in post, ACPO intends to meet him or her to indentify and discuss these cross-cutting issues. In addition, the Ministry of Justice plans to publish its charter for coroner services shortly. For the first time in the 800 years since the office of coroner was established, that will set out the standards of service that bereaved people can expect to receive and what they can do if they are not satisfied.

The other issue that the hon. Lady raised, which is obviously very serious, is that concerns have been expressed that the police should routinely examine the computers of suicide victims to determine whether they have received online encouragement to take their own lives. Any decision to access the computer of a person who has committed suicide rests with the relevant police force. I will come back to that, but it may be helpful if I first explain briefly the relevant provisions in law that have been simplified and modernised to reflect concerns about the misuse of the internet to promote suicide.

Under section 2(1) of the Suicide Act 1961, as amended by section 59 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, it is an offence to carry out an act capable of encouraging or assisting the suicide or attempted suicide of another person with the intention of so doing. The person committing the offence need not know the other person or even be able to identify them. Therefore, the author of a website promoting suicide and suicide methods may commit an offence if the website encourages or assists the suicide or attempted suicide of their readers and the author intends that the website will so encourage or assist them. Crucially, the law also allows that person to be prosecuted, irrespective of whether a suicide or attempted suicide takes place. Similarly, any person making a posting to an online chat room or a social networking site that intentionally encourages another person to commit or attempt to commit suicide may be guilty of offence.

The police can investigate those suspected of encouraging suicide by accessing the relevant computer and analysing the data on it after obtaining a warrant or an authorisation under the Police Act 1997 or RIPA, which the hon. Lady mentioned. Both routes would be authorised by senior police officers on the basis that the action is necessary and proportionate to detect a crime, including the crime of encouraging or assisting suicide. The 1997 Act authorisation would be necessary to open the computer and the RIPA authorisation would be necessary to examine the private information it contains. RIPA also permits the police to authorise the access of data from a communication service provider, including internet service providers, on the same basis to determine what sort of sites had been accessed or who had been in contact.

The decisions to take those actions would be a matter for the police. Neither the 1997 Act nor RIPA place any restriction on investigations into the use of the internet to encourage or assist suicide. In circumstances where the police believe that a suicide and content on the internet are linked, they might consider it appropriate to investigate the computer of the person who has committed suicide. As the hon. Lady knows, that can include the investigation of activity on social network sites, which have been thought to play a part in some incidents.

Any decision to access the computer of a person who has died following a suicide of course rests with the relevant police force. That must be done sensitively. If the bereaved family is not satisfied with the police’s actions, they can complain to the force directly. If they remain dissatisfied, they should raise any concerns with the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

The hon. Lady raised a separate issue about the role of social media following a suicide and the fact that it may be possible through social media for people to access information, including photographs, in a way that distresses the family. She mentioned that some kind of protocol to address that is already in existence. I am very happy to consider that matter and examine whether that protocol is being used effectively. I can understand that a social website through which photographs are shared and available when somebody is alive and perhaps happy may take on an entirely different complexion to the family of that person if a suicide occurs. Therefore, it is desirable to be able to ensure that information that was publicly available in different circumstances cannot be misused. I am happy to consider that matter and examine how we might work with the social media providers to ensure effective action in such circumstances.

I reiterate the Government’s commitment to preventing suicide, which requires co-ordination and contributions from public services and organisations, voluntary groups, the private sector and individuals. The forthcoming Government strategy will play an important part in helping to prevent vulnerable people from taking their own lives and in supporting those who have been bereaved following suicides. The Government are ensuring that we have a support framework in place, so that the right help is available to those who are at risk of suicide. Furthermore, the existing legal framework ensures that the police have sufficient powers to investigate sudden deaths and to support the work of the coroner.

I will ensure that we study the hon. Lady’s speech carefully, so that all the issues that she has raised are picked up, as we consider the publication of the strategy and the responses to it. If necessary, I will write to her to set out what more we think we might need to do. I certainly do not want her to think that I am not taking seriously her request that there should be national guidance in this respect, but I am conscious of the background of the burden of national guidance that has been coming from the Home Office on a range of matters. That is why the appropriate first step will be for me to discuss these issues with ACPO and find out what it believes is necessary by means of further doctrine and what it thinks the appropriate doctrine should be. The overall burden is something that concerns me; but equally, it is important to ensure proper practice.

Clearly, we will not prevent every tragedy. However, we can assure ourselves that we have done everything in our power, so that those with suicidal thoughts have somewhere to turn for support and bereaved families are treated with sensitivity by the police, who will leave no stone unturned in their pursuit of answers. I hope that that is an adequate response to the hon. Lady, given the seriousness of her concern about the matter, which I recognise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)]

5. How many prosecutions have been brought in respect of illegal encampments involving vehicles on public parks in the last 12 months.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

In 2010, there were 38 prosecutions for offences under sections 61, 62B and 77 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. Figures for 2011 are not yet available and the data do not show what proportion of these prosecutions related to unauthorised encampments in public parks or whether vehicles were involved in each case.

[Mike Weatherley]

Will the Minister consider a review of the powers of local authorities to prosecute trespassers effectively and/or to charge occupants fees so that there is an effective deterrent against uninvited encampments and so that some of the costs associated with unwelcome activity can be recouped?

[Nick Herbert]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concern, which is widely shared, about illegal encampments, whether they are on private land, thereby attempting to subvert the public planning process, or ruining people’s enjoyment of public parks. A range of powers are available to the police and agencies, and we are strengthening them through the latest legislation, the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, to allow local authorities to attach the power of seizure to their byelaws. We want to ensure that the new powers are used effectively.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

7. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the effect of his proposed changes to legal aid on the number of cases concerning benefits requiring early stage legal advice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

12. How many people in the London borough of Havering have been convicted of offences in connection with the public disorder in August 2011.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

Data available on 1 February show that six people from Havering were convicted for their part in the public disorder of 6 to 9 August last year.

[Andrew Rosindell]

As the Minister knows, many of our courts worked extra long hours last August to ensure that many of those who engaged in the riots were dealt with very quickly. What lessons have the Government learned from that to ensure that our courts are more efficient in future?

[Nick Herbert]

We certainly were impressed by the speed with which the criminal justice system responded to the disorder, and we are grateful for the efforts of those working in it. Cases were dealt with in a matter of hours and days, rather than the routine, which can be weeks and months. We seek to learn the lessons from that and we will shortly come forward with proposals for how we can ensure that we have a justice system that is swifter and more sure.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

14. What recent assessment he has made of the potential effect of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill on victims of domestic violence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

20. What his policy is on the use of community service sentences; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

It is for the court to determine whether an offence is serious enough to warrant the imposition of a community sentence. When a community sentence is imposed, we want to ensure that it is effective in stopping offending behaviour escalating to the point at which prison becomes the only option.

[Diana Johnson]

Hull Crown court recently found Lee Bates guilty of illegal moneylending, or loan sharking as most people call it. At least 17 victims and their families suffered from his exploitation, and he got 180 hours’ community service for pleading guilty, but surely such criminals should go to prison, should they not?

[Nick Herbert]

I cannot comment on that particular case, but in general we certainly believe that serious offenders—those offenders who have committed repeat offences—should be sent to prison, and that option remains for the courts. We believe also, however, that community sentences, when they are imposed, should be more rigorous and have a more punitive element, so that we can stop the escalation of offending which results in a custodial sentence. It is that escalation that we seek to avoid.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

21. What assessment he has made of the deterrent effect of sentencing on the incidence of metal theft.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

We were concerned that there was a belief that it was not possible to name offenders on the run for reasons of, for instance, data protection or human rights. When offenders are unlawfully at large, it must make sense for there to be a presumption that they can be named by the authorities. The Government will take steps to ensure that that is made clear and that there will be such naming unless there are specific operational reasons why that would not make sense.

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

T4. The Office for Judicial Complaints has been investigating the poor performance of the Teesside coroner since August but, seven months on, we still have no indication of when the investigation will conclude. Has the Minister set a finish date for the investigation? When will matters improve? Has he merely kicked the subject into the long grass?