Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Herbert of South Downs Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

3. What representations she has received from members of the public on the local crime and policing website.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

Since its launch on 31 January, our street level crime mapping website police.uk has received almost 400 million hits. The website is a strong example of this Government’s commitment to greater transparency in public services, by giving communities the information they need to hold their local police to account.

[Oliver Colvile]

I have received a number of positive comments on the crime website maps. Does my right hon. Friend have any plans or initiatives to add anything more to them?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes, the Government intend to build on the information currently given. There are six trailblazing police forces looking at how this can be done, including Lincolnshire police and West Yorkshire police, who are looking at how we might supply sentencing outcome information so the public know not only that the crime was committed, but what happened afterwards in the criminal justice system.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

In the interest of transparency, will the Minister consider adding to the value of the mapping crimes website by including figures on the dozens of police who will not be on the streets because of the huge cuts his Government are imposing on our police forces?

[Nick Herbert]

Oh dear, the hon. Gentleman has missed the point. If he looks at the website police.uk, he will see that the neighbourhood policing teams are shown alongside the area in which the individual lives. Every force up and down the country is committed to protecting neighbourhood policing, and those officers will remain on the streets for the public as savings are made in the back and middle offices.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

4. What plans she has to assist police forces to tackle antisocial behaviour.

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[Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What estimate she has made of the likely number of police officers in Greater Manchester in March 2015.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

It is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority to determine the number of police officers that are deployed by Greater Manchester police within the available resource.

[Jim Dobbin]

Crime levels went down under the previous Government. That is a well known fact. The chief constable of Greater Manchester estimates that around 1,500 officers will be lost because of the cuts. Can the Government justify that?

[Nick Herbert]

I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are also 4,000 police staff working in Greater Manchester police. There was a huge increase in the number of police staff employed by police forces under the previous Government. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee that

“there was already a recognition, certainly in Greater Manchester Police, that some of our headquarters operations had got too big.”

Forces can and must make savings in back and middle offices while protecting the front line.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Minister has not really responded to the real issue on this. Will he tell the House unequivocally—and repeat his view—that when we see the number of police officers reduced in Greater Manchester, as we will, it will have no impact on crime?

[Nick Herbert]

We are absolutely determined to maintain efficient and effective forces, and every chief constable I meet, including the chief constable of Greater Manchester, makes the same point. The chief constable said last week, after being misquoted on the matter:

“We need to have an intelligent debate about the cuts and see the opportunities, not just the threats.”

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The Government insist that it is possible to cut 10,000 police posts nationally, and up to 1,500 in Manchester. I should point out to the Minister that they also plan to cut nearly 1,600 back-office staff. We know from an answer that Baroness Neville-Jones gave in the House of Lords that there is no formally agreed definition of front-line police services. If those are not cuts to front-line police services, we would like to know what they are. Can the Minister get to the Dispatch Box and tell us exactly what the definition of police front-line service is, because if he cannot, how can he protect them?

[Nick Herbert]

I have defined it on a number of occasions, including in a written answer. Let me repeat it for the hon. Gentleman: front-line policing

“includes neighbourhood policing, response policing and criminal investigation.”—[Official Report, 8 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 194W.]

There can be savings in the back and middle offices, as at least a third of all spending is in those areas. If he thinks that there is no definition of front-line policing, how can he be so confident that there will be cuts in the front line? His position is nonsense.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

12. If she will bring forward proposals to change immigration bail conditions to make them consistent with proposed conditions for control orders.

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[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

20. What research her Department has commissioned and evaluated on any relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The Government believe that police forces can make savings while protecting the front line. We do not accept that reducing costs will cause an increase in crime. What matters is how resources are used and how officers are deployed.

[Owen Smith]

The Minister will know that in south Wales we have already seen the announcement that 250 front-line police officers will lose their jobs. When I attended a meeting a couple of weeks ago with our police authority, it warned that a further 320 front-line officers could lose out as a result of the cuts. Is the Minister seriously telling the people of Wales that crime will not increase as a result of that enormous loss in front-line policing capacity?

[Nick Herbert]

I do not accept that the reductions in head count in that police force or in any other will impact on the front line, and I very much doubt that the chief constable would agree with that. I remind the hon. Gentleman of what the Home Affairs Committee concluded in its recent report:

“We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime. The reduction in the police workforce need not inevitably lead to a rise in crime.”

That is a cross-party Committee.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend that this is about how police forces are deploying their officers. In North Yorkshire, we have a particular problem with rural crime. I would be most grateful if he would meet me and other rural Members to discuss this issue. Farms and farm property, in particular, are being trashed because we simply do not have enough cover in rural areas.

[Nick Herbert]

I would of course be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue. I understand the importance of dealing with crime in rural areas just as we must deal with crime elsewhere. The police cannot act alone, and it is very important that there are effective partnerships with, for instance, the farming community so that, where possible, there can be a concerted effort to deal with this problem.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

21. When she plans to announce the outcome of her review of human trafficking policy.

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[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

T4. Given media reports that police patrols are being scaled back because of the price of fuel and that Gwent police spend £4 million on their car fleet, including fuel, what action are the Government taking to help our local police officers to keep their patrols on the road?

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman’s question is about fuel prices, which are not a matter for me, or taxation, or patrols. I repeat, however, that we are committed to working with police forces to maintain, and indeed to improve, the visibility and availability of police officers on patrol by making savings elsewhere in police forces.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

T8. At this difficult economic time, what steps is the Minister taking to make it as straightforward as possible for British businesses to take on highly skilled foreign workers, albeit under the auspices of the immigration cap?

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[Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)]

T6. Hundreds of my constituents have signed a petition supporting the reopening to the public of Sowerby Bridge police station. Will the Minister urgently consider the matter, because it is at the very heart of the community and would play a huge role in preventing and tackling crime in the area?

[Nick Herbert]

We do not directly control whether police stations are open—that is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority—but there are other ways in which the police can improve their visibility to the public. For instance, they can set up bases in supermarkets. It is not just about buildings; they can also share facilities with other organisations. However, these are matters for chief constables to decide as they find effective ways to be visible in their communities.

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[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

T10. Will the Minister confirm that the police officers working in Northumbria force’s public protection units dealing with serious crime such as child abuse and domestic crime are classified as front-line police officers?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

This morning I attended the opening of the Kingswood one-stop shop, which includes a fixed police presence. It is the first time that the police have had a base in Kingswood since the previous Government closed the local police station. Will the Minister commend South Gloucestershire council and Avon and Somerset police for their collaborative working to ensure that front-line services are protected, and further consider how police authorities and local councils can work together to ensure that services are shared for public benefit?

[Nick Herbert]

I thank my hon. Friend. That provides a very good example of innovative ways of working that can increase the visibility of policing, and the co-operation between the police force and other agencies provides a perfect example of the way we need to go.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

When asked to justify the cuts to policing in Greater Manchester, the Minister for Policing, and Criminal Justice said that cuts could be made to the back office. May I tell him that at least 1,600 police staff are being made redundant in Greater Manchester on top of the 1,377 uniformed officers? I ask him again how he can justify that.