Covid-19 Regulations: Assisted Deaths Abroad
Lord Haskel Excerpts(4 years ago)
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Lord Bethell (Con)
I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that the contribution of hospices and the role of those involved in palliative care has been an incredibly important part of the Covid crisis, and it has given huge succour, compassion and care for those at the end of their life. We have sought to help with the financing of the hospice community with a substantial £150 million payment in the first wave, and there are currently talks in place on funding for hospice care through the second wave. Hospices’ work is enormously valued, and anything in this debate does nothing to underplay the value of the role that they play at the end of people’s lives.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed, so I move to the next item of business.
Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020
Lord Haskel Excerpts(4 years ago)
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Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am 69 and am definitely entering the danger zone for coronavirus. Actually, I believe I had it in late March after lockdown. It was largely asymptomatic and possibly acquired here in this House. I appreciate that my noble friend the Minister and the Government are in an impossibly difficult position. Nobody doubts that this is an unpleasant, virulent and highly contagious virus that is killing people, especially the old and vulnerable. Beyond that, there is huge disagreement among the public, politicians and scientists.
This morning, I attended a meeting with Sir Jeremy Farrar of SAGE. He was very reasonable, plausible and balanced but not ultimately convincing because of differing and competing views. For instance, Professor Heneghan, of the Oxford Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine—I emphasise “evidence-based”—said that the R rate in Liverpool is falling among the over-60s. Apparently, Covid cases in Liverpool hospitals are falling. King’s College London believes that the R rate in England and Wales now is approximately one and Tim Spector, a professor of epidemiology at King’s, thinks that the peak of the second wave has passed. Professor Gupta at Oxford and many other eminent scientists disagree with the SAGE analysis. We were told on Saturday by Sir Patrick Vallance of a trajectory of 4,000 deaths each day without a lockdown and yesterday, the Chief Medical Officer, under questioning, reduced that number to 1,000.
What I am saying is that nobody really knows, and scientists and doctors disagree. For instance, just over 1 million people have officially had Covid but I think that there are very many more. I suspect that all of us know people who believe that they have had it. We do not know how many cases are hospital-acquired infections; yesterday, Jeremy Hunt said that it is 18%. We do not know when and if a viable and effective vaccine will be produced. We still do not know why people have such totally different responses and symptoms. My son had the virus before the lockdown in mid-March. He recovered but said that he could not taste or smell anything. That was not declared a symptom until late May. This morning, Professor Farrar said that we still do not know much about the long-term effects—so-called long Covid. Of course, respiratory diseases such as pneumonia have a lingering effect that sometimes takes six months or more to recover from. The truth is that nobody knows much about this virus or the epidemic.
However, we now know that one has only a 50% chance of survival if put on a ventilator. We were not told that in April during the panic to get more ventilators, so advice changes. We know that only something like 320 deaths from coronavirus, every one of which is a tragedy, have occurred among those aged under 60 without comorbidities. Among the under-40s, there has been a total of about 250 deaths from the virus during the epidemic, overwhelmingly of people who were already vulnerable with comorbidities.
We know that our young people—our children and our grandchildren—will be saddled with debt for decades, as my parent’s generation spent decades paying off debt from the Second World War. Will our children ever forgive us? We know that unemployment will rocket next year. We know that businesses, large and small, will be closed in their droves. In hospitality, pubs and restaurants will close their doors tonight and many will never reopen. We know that cancer treatment has ground to a halt for hundreds and thousands of patients. We know that domestic abuse and mental health issues have increased dramatically—as, it appears, have suicides. We know that students are locked into halls of residence, ruining their time at university; they are turned into criminals if they leave. They will then face a desolate employment landscape in which to find a job. Therefore, is it not reasonable to ask for a cost-benefit or risk analysis? Yesterday, Robert Jenrick, a Cabinet Minister for whom I have a high regard, said that there had been no impact assessment. Surely we should expect such an assessment before embarking on a serious act of national self-harm, yet the Government do not appear to have done one.
The second part of my amendment calls for an explanation of the Government’s comprehensive long-term strategy. In the last century, when I was in the Army, it was a given that one explained to all one’s soldiers the rationale behind orders if one expected them to follow them. It is called leadership. I ask the Minister to tell the House what the strategy is behind government policy. The country is locked down so infections should fall, but when restrictions are lifted, it seems to me that infections may rise again, meaning a third wave. Then what? An effective and reliable vaccine may appear, or it may not. It may be only 50% reliable anyway, as I read from another expert. As I understand it, a vaccine makes the patient’s body produce antibodies, but now we are told that many recovered patients lose their antibodies within six months. Is that the case?
As a loyal Conservative, I want to believe that the Government have a strategy but my credulity has been strained somewhat. We were originally told, until late August, that face masks were essentially of no use. We have been told to go back to work. It is only two or three weeks since we were told that there would definitely not be a second national lockdown. I regret to say that an enormous amount of good will and trust has evaporated. We are told that the public support a second lockdown. I am not so sure, but the role of leadership is to lead. We need courageous leadership to explain the costs, benefits and risks surrounding this crisis and this measure. We need to a clear strategy to take us through this crisis.
I do not underestimate the extraordinarily difficult choices before the Government; nor do I envy Ministers having to make these decisions. I will listen to the 50 or more contributions and look forward to the Minister’s response, but I currently intend to divide the House on this amendment.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab) [V]
I should inform the House that if the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, is agreed to, I cannot call any of the other amendments by reason of pre-emption.
Viscount Trenchard (Con)
My Lords, I do not envy my right honourable friend the Prime Minister for having to decide where the balance should lie between saving jobs and the economy or saving lives. When I watched his press conference on Saturday, however, I felt immediately sceptical about the data we were shown by his advisers. Part of the reason for the much higher incidence of infections in this second wave is that very many more people are being tested. Therefore, many more people with only mild symptoms, or no symptoms, are appearing in the statistics than was the case in March and April. The proportions of infected people who are dying, and of those who are hospitalised, are also very much lower than was the case in the first phase. In particular, the graph showing scenarios for expected winter deaths—not predictions or forecasts—produced by several modelling groups looked suspicious, as did the graph with an enormous shaded area projecting possible hospital admissions.
I find the arguments put forward by Professor Carl Heneghan and Ross Clark persuasive, and they have not been given enough weight, particularly when there is some evidence that the regional measures were actually working in the areas where they had been introduced and no likelihood whatever that hospital capacity may be threatened in the rest of the country.
It has been argued that immunity provided by antibodies may not last long, and statistics have been presented showing a declining proportion of people possessing antibodies. Having had the virus, without realising it at the time, in late March, I tested positive for antibodies both in early May and at the end of September. I am not aware of anyone who had tested positive for antibodies who has subsequently tested negative. Could the Minister tell the House if he knows what data exists in this area? Without specific data it is clearly misleading to argue definitively that the possession of antibodies offers little mitigation of the risk of being hospitalised or dying as a result of contracting Covid for a second time.
I am no epidemiologist but, based on the evidence I have seen, I do not believe that the state is justified in intervening to deprive citizens of their freedoms in the way that it is doing, particularly if it is using powers granted by an Act of Parliament which was never intended to restrict the activities of healthy people, as was so convincingly argued by Lord Sumption.
I have attended in two cases, and been prevented from attending in one case, the funerals of three close relatives during the period since the pandemic struck. It is welcome that the number who may attend funerals—which had been increased from nine to 30—remains 30 under this current lockdown. However, I think it is most regrettable that the Government have now banned marriages altogether. I have another close relative whose wedding has already been postponed for several months by Covid-induced travel restrictions. He had planned to marry this month, albeit with only 15 people in attendance, but that is not now possible.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Baroness, Lady Verma, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I shall be voting with the Government tonight, conscious of the many concerns expressed by noble Lords, not least those recently expressed by my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lady Altmann about the complete absence of evidence that the Government can produce for the ban on collective worship. We are at a point where something must be done and this is the only option in front of us, but I will make two points.
First, this has now ceased to be a matter fit for legislation. If you want a law to close pubs or restaurants, that is fine; it is nice and simple. However, when you come to micromanaging the lives of individuals and families, as Part 2 seeks to do, with 10 principal exemptions and numerous sub-paragraphs, it is simply absurd. It will be incomprehensible to families, police and enforcement authorities alike.
Many of these exemptions are common sense, but you cannot legislate for common sense; you can only ask people to exercise it. If any of these measures are to be continued after 2 December, they cannot be in this form; they need to be based on trusting people. That sounds like Sweden—I have never been a vocal advocate, or any advocate at all, for Sweden or its approach, but that is clearly where these regulations are pointing.
My second point is that Covid is a medical problem, requiring medical solutions. However, we have made it the prisoner of statisticians and geeks with models. As the noble Lord, Lord Desai, pointed out, they are geeks who cannot agree on anything significant, except that a line pointing upwards will continue to do so if nothing prevents it. We have no choice, in practice, but to rely on improvements in treatment and care to reduce mortality, as is already happening, as the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, pointed out.
We cannot rely on a silver bullet: a vaccine that may be only partially effective—who knows?—or a test, trace and isolate system, which, even if it tested and traced effectively, cannot persuade people to isolate. Today is the day, and November is a write-off, but we cannot find ourselves in this position again. I urge the Government to use this month to consider a reset in their approach and lead us forward on the basis of trusting people and improving treatment and care.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott.
Baroness Boycott (CB) [V]
My Lords, it has been very interesting listening to noble Lords talking about the way we have blundered into this lockdown, thoughtlessly and without a great deal of evidence.
As many noble Lords will know, my concern is how people are going to eat or, rather, not going to eat. During the first lockdown, Feeding Britain—I declare an interest as its chair—worked with Northumbria University and found that one in four adults across the UK were struggling to access food they could afford. Half of all adults tried to cope by purchasing much less expensive—that is, really unhealthy—food which they would not ordinarily choose to buy. Nearly one in four adults looking after children ate less than they would normally do in order to feed their kids. Some people were going without food for up to three days. Since then, the economic consequences of the pandemic have led to many people, whose earnings from regular or self-employment previously afforded them a decent quality of life, using food banks for the first time. This was widely reported earlier this week.
There is a sense of outrage and injustice attached to each of these developments, and I propose the following four measures to the Minister to prevent these alarming trends worsening during this second lockdown, which is happening in the winter with a huge number of lay-offs. First, benefit sanctions must be suspended for at least the duration of this lockdown, given the lack of jobs which people can apply for. Secondly, the gaps in support schemes for low earners and the self-employed must be plugged so that nobody losing work is forced, in these cold months, to choose between eating or keeping warm. Thirdly, we need a Defra-led taskforce to maintain and improve the supply of affordable food to vulnerable people and those on low incomes. I suggest that money could be diverted to local cafés to feed such people. That also secures employment, rather than trying voucher schemes, which did not work last time. Fourthly, the national food strategy’s recommendations need to be implemented immediately, with a national programme of meals and activities for children over the Christmas and February holidays. We all know what that one is about.
Finally, while we all welcome the £20 increase in the universal credit, can that please be extended to those on legacy benefits such as JSA and ESA to ensure that they can meet any additional costs that crop up in this pandemic? My fear is that, in the absence of any of these reforms, the poorest in our society will be clobbered yet again by the latest social and economic consequences of Covid-19 and this pretty unnecessary shutdown.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, has withdrawn. I call the noble Lord, Lord Trimble.
Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020
Lord Haskel Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I endorse everything that my noble friend Lord Lamont said and I shall list as many of my concerns with the regulations as I can in the two minutes that we are allowed.
First, the rule of six is not based on science. Indeed, the Minister revealed its basis when he said on 14 September that the Government had relied on
“marketing advice from our communications department”.—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1000.]
He also referred to focus groups. The Minister might think that that is science-based but most would disagree with him.
Secondly, Ministers would double down by encouraging snitching. That is not the kind of society I want to live in. Thirdly, the rule lacks logic. It is illegal for seven children to gather together to feed ducks, but it is perfectly okay for 30 adults to go out shooting them—the ducks, that is.
Fourthly, the order lacks precision. It makes mingling yet another way to break the law, but does not define it. On 14 September, the Minister said that it was
“a concept which, frankly, I do not think needs much description”.—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 999.]
Frankly, I think that that is an unacceptable way to legislate. Fifthly, as usual, there is no analysis of impact or alternatives and no attempt to explain the balance between the competing interests of our economic future, non-Covid mental and physical health matters and the narrow Covid impact.
I could go on, but sadly I have run out of time. I regret that my noble friend Lord Lamont is no longer pursuing his earlier fatal Motion. That would have had my vote.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Hutton of Furness.
Covid-19: Mental Health
Lord Haskel Excerpts(4 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bethell [V]
My Lords, the investment we are making in mental health is profound. Our commitment is to £2.3 billion of extra funding by 2023-24. This is the sort of money necessary to provide the resources that will lead to a kinder, gentler type of mental health provision. I hope it will address the issues that the noble Baroness raises.
Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]
Has the Minister made any assessment of the effect on women of the ending of the self-employment income support scheme, since the inequalities report says that women still earn less, save less and are overrepresented in low-income insecure self-employment, notably in hospitality and leisure?
Lord Bethell [V]
The noble Lord is entirely right that the burden on women during an epidemic such as Covid is probably more profound in some instances than on men. Women carry a huge amount of the domestic burden and of the financial concerns for the family. The IFS report puts a spotlight on the huge pressures placed on women. That will be a focus for our study and work.
Covid-19: Response
Lord Haskel Excerpts(4 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bethell
The noble Baroness is entirely right. These diseases always hit hardest those who are most vulnerable, and the most vulnerable often include those who are poorest, who have existing morbidities and who are vulnerable in some way. She is right that this is an age-old truth; it is as old as history itself.
I was referring to the scientific links between the disease and the death rate. To clear up the point, if I may, the mystery that we do not understand is the biological explanation of why the disease appears to hit some people harder than others. That mystery is being unravelled, but I cannot pretend that we fully understand it at the moment.
As to the noble Baroness’s invitation to meet groups, I remember it well and would be very glad to take it up. I will ask my private office to be in touch to make those arrangements.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Balfe.
Lord Balfe (Con)
My Lords, I want to go back to the testing centres question. I also had a test, but I had to drive to Stansted from Cambridge. Many people in our community do not have cars and do not drive. What is the Minister doing to make it possible for all major towns to have testing facilities that can be reached either by public transport or on foot?
My second point is more doubtful. Many people do not seem to realise when they should be tested, or, for that matter, how often. If you are tested at the beginning of June, when do you need to be tested again, if at all? What does the test prove, apart from the fact that you do not have the virus? It does not prove that you have had it or will not get it. Will the Minister step up the publicity campaign he just mentioned, so that people can be better informed?
Lord Bethell
I agree with my noble friend. It is a grave concern that key communities, particularly those to which she alludes, are not hearing the message and do not have the available resources for booking tests. We are working hard on that. In particular, we are working with GPs to ensure that they have the ability to book tests. They can of course do so on the portal like anyone else, but we are working to create a special prioritised facility for GPs to be able to book tests for their patients. I completely agree with my noble friend’s assessment that in many communities GPs play a trusted role. A practical issue is that many GP surgeries are currently closed, but I welcome the fact that many are now reopening.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
My Lords, the time allotted for the Statement is now up. The day’s Virtual Proceedings are now complete and are adjourned.
Mental Health of Children and Young Adults
Lord Haskel Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, speaking last, I cannot help but observe that all of us, and the country, have been on a mental health journey—a journey making us more and more aware of the prevalence, growth and impact of mental ill-health, its effect on people’s lives and the shortage of related services. I congratulate my noble friend on moving this debate, especially during Mental Health Awareness Week when a lot of these considerations come together.
As I became more and more aware of mental health on my journey, so I was able to observe and recognise how young people were coming under greater stress, and how the services designed to deal with this stress were themselves coming under more and more stress and pressure. The causes are everywhere; noble Lords have mentioned school, home, the media, sport, relationships and the transition to adulthood. I have particularly noticed the polarisation of the generations, as shown in the recent FCA report, which I think deserves a lot more study. Others have spoken of social media, where platforms are set up to reward young people’s engagement so that they are encouraged to continuously feed off each other, adding to their stress. We really need to get on with separating control of the platforms from control of the content.
Like my noble friend Lady McIntosh, I have no expertise, but it seems to me that the best support one can give is to help those who are trying to establish good practice and sound procedures to prevent these problems emerging in the first place and, if they do emerge, to provide help in coping with them. YoungMinds has campaigned for additional investment in services for young people’s mental health while at the same time providing a parents’ helpline for information, advice and support for those concerned about the mental health of young people. It has also made people more aware of mental health problems so that they can be caught earlier. The earlier the intervention, the less pressure there is on services and on the child. Awareness is important, but it is absolutely no substitute for action.
These positive measures are the best sources of prevention, but of course they are difficult to measure. Can the Minister reassure us that, even so, the prevention strategy will include these positive measures? They are especially important now, with cuts to youth services and community workers, and sport, art, music and other activities in schools being cut due to academic pressures. As others have said, we know that the majority of mental health problems are established when we are young. This makes a prevention strategy especially important.
Another aspect of maintaining the mental health of young people is to ensure that the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is upheld, in government, schools, health services and criminal justice. I came across this as part of my duties as a member of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, when we scrutinised an order regarding children working undercover for the police. This brought me into contact with Just For Kids Law, a charity which campaigns for the rights of juveniles under this UN charter.
In May 2017, the UK was examined under the universal periodic review carried out by the United Nations, which includes examining the rights of the child. Among the recommendations coming out of this review are recommendations about age-appropriate mental health services. However, in spite of campaigning, the Government supported only 28% of the recommendations regarding children’s rights and mental health. Of course, the Government can choose whether to just take note of recommendations from the United Nations committee or to accept them; they do not have the force of law. However, they have a moral pressure. Can the Minister tell us the status of the recommendations which were not accepted? Are they under consideration, or have they been rejected?
Of course, the mental health of young people touches us all. To this end, in October last year the Government announced an ambitious programme to train 1 million people in mental health awareness, with a pilot in the West Midlands ahead of a national rollout which was to take place about now. Is this going to happen?
Real improvement in young people’s mental health is achieved by reaching young people early, hopefully before they actually need the services. For this, we all need to be aware. Mental Health Awareness Week is an important contribution to this and, together with other noble Lords, I welcome the opportunity to participate.
Older Persons: Human Rights and Care
Lord Haskel Excerpts(7 years ago)
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Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, I too thank my noble friend for moving this Motion. His qualifications date back to his time as director of Age Concern in Scotland. My qualifications simply date back.
The numbers are compelling. In this country there are now 11.5 million people over 65 and this figure will be half as much again in 10 years’ time. The Council of Europe is absolutely right to draw this demographic change to our attention in terms of human rights because we have to plan for it.
The declaration speaks of integrating health and social care services, and this is where the difficulties lie. At present, in planning for this demographic change, we have to decide where the NHS ends and where social care begins. Until we have a continuum of health and social care, we shall have only short-term solutions, dealing with emergencies as they arise.
At the moment, this changeover is held together by dedicated people—in the NHS, in the caring professions and in families. I hope the Minister will join me in acknowledging this. Surveys show that most of us would pay more tax to finance an integrated system—a solution which makes the Government very nervous. There is talk of a hypothecated tax similar to the local authority precept. But after a while, as we all know, the numbers become cloudy and cease to differentiate between general taxation and a hypothecated tax. Integration may not be cheaper, but it would certainly give better results—because there would be continuity and balance in people’s lives.
Ageing is not a genetically predetermined set of events. Over the years, research has identified—and it continues to identify—the biological processes that cause ageing. This, together with improving health at all stages of our lives, means not only that we are living longer but that we are healthier as we age. Next month incidentally, POST, the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, will issue a note about healthy ageing, explaining how this came about.
But in spite of this, many automatically assume that having lots of older people is a problem. They tend to think about older people almost exclusively in terms of pensions and care. We have to challenge that view and change the attitude by emphasising the right for older people to continue working and volunteering. It is part of diversity. It is also part of healthy ageing, because much of our identity is expressed through the work we do and the service we give. The Council of Europe report touches on this, but I would like to see a lot more emphasis put on it. It seems a logical outcome for all the effort that we put into healthier ageing.
The good news is that things are moving in the right direction. Business in the Community has set up the Age at Work Leadership Team, and in 2016 Andy Briggs became the Government’s Business Champion for Older Workers. The Global Coalition on Aging is inviting businesses to sign up to its age-friendly business principles. BT, for instance, is an employer that has recognised the importance of this and has introduced flexible working to support older workers. Can the Minister assure us that the Government welcome these initiatives and will support them?
Finally, my noble friend, quite rightly, emphasises the human rights of older people. Of course he is right to do this, but rights are wasted unless there is awareness. Older people, their carers and employers have to know that other people have these rights, what they mean, how to exercise them, and how to seek redress. All this could well be expressed in a charter, as my noble friend suggests. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government will prepare a charter? What will they do to raise the awareness of the human rights of older people?
Access to Palliative Care Bill [HL]
Lord Haskel Excerpts(9 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, in the years that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has served in your Lordships’ House, she has been a fighter and a champion for better palliative care, particularly in her home country of Wales. As a result, Wales has a system of seven-day specialist palliative care which many organisations say is good and successful, and when the noble Baroness wants to bring this to us here in England, we should sit up and take notice.
As the noble Baroness explained, here in England it is up to the clinical commissioning groups to allocate resources to palliative care departments in hospitals or to buy it in from hospices and other organisations—not only beds but their expertise. Apparently there are many guidelines, and many separate agencies—as well as doctors, nurses and the carers themselves—are involved. There are new ways of controlling the pain, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, just told us about. The Bill seeks to bring order and lay down a more comprehensive approach. The Care Quality Commission is required to examine and evaluate this. This requirement for better care, better organisation and better targeting surely must be welcomed because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, the variation between what is done and what should be done is quite large. This month’s report from the Economist Intelligence Unit points out that such improvements in end-of-life care need not cost more—it just has to be managed and organised better, which is what the Bill seeks to do.
I therefore welcome the Bill; but does it go far enough? For my part, I would welcome a clearer framework for people approaching the end of life to make their own decisions. Other noble Lords have referred to this. The Bill refers to advance decisions to refuse treatment and the Mental Capacity Act, but conversations and discussions need to start early. The Bill deals with patients once they have been confirmed as being end of life. But would discussions and earlier identification not help? That would enable more input from the patients themselves, so that people can have the end-of-life care that they wish for and which is right for them. I welcome the briefing from Compassion in Dying—yes, it did arrive in time—which supports, and even provides, advance decision forms. Can the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, say how her Bill will help earlier identification and help people to make choices for end-of-life care and know that their choices will be respected?
I congratulate the noble Baroness on the Bill. The changes it proposes and the standards it lays down for the best palliative care possible deserve the support of all noble Lords.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Haskel Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Stamford
Am I not allowed to say a word in response to the Minister?
NHS: Hinchingbrooke Hospital
Lord Haskel Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Earl Howe
The previous Government tried very hard to put an NHS solution in place. As I mentioned, by the time they left office no NHS provider was willing to step in and say that it was capable of turning Hinchingbrooke around—the problems were that serious. Given that situation, an independent sector solution was the only one on the table.
Lord Haskel
I do not want to sound like a penny-pinching accountant, but exactly how do you work out profit on a hospital? How do you work out a surplus? What about capital expenditure? What about depreciation? What about all these other things that are involved? Have all these things been worked out?