Brexit: Environmental Regulation

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, the interim arrangements would not apply under the description of events that I have, which is that we bring forward a deal, that deal is agreed and there is a withdrawal Act. As my noble friend said, that legislation is very important, and I am sure that during its passage it will be made absolutely clear that we intend to champion the environment. We want the highest possible standards and understand that the situation is grave. As to “adequate” and other measures, I am not a lawyer but I can only assure your Lordships that we are very determined to enhance the environment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain why the Boris Johnson version of the withdrawal Bill specifically left out the clause—known as the non-regression clause—which guaranteed that we would not fall below current environmental standards? Can he clarify what plans are now in place to reverse that decision and introduce legislation to give legal certainty on that issue? I know that the Environment Bill is coming our way, but will the precise issue of non-regression be in it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, perhaps the easiest thing is to read out the Prime Minister’s text, in reply to a question precisely on non-regression:

“The crucial thing that will reassure her is that in the event of the EU bringing forward new legislation, we in this Government will bring forward an amendable motion so that the House may choose to match those standards”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/10/19; col. 831.]


We are very clear. We are in the market not of non-regression but of moving forward. We need to enhance the environment. That is the predication of the OEP and the work of the Environment Bill whenever it comes forward.

National Biodiversity Network Report

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

No, it most certainly is not, which is why we are bringing forward the environmental land management scheme as part of the post-CAP arrangements. It is why we have published the Green Finance Strategy and why more than 370,000 acres in England have been set aside for new wildlife-rich habitats. I could go on, particularly on the international stage. All of this is because we need to enhance the environment. We will always turn to the best scientific advice on pesticides and chemicals. Clearly, that is why we decided that neonicotinoids are not acceptable. We will take action if the science directs it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, how can the Government claim to be protecting the natural world when the budget for Natural England has been halved and its staff numbers have dropped from 2,500 to 1,500 since 2010? What hope does it have in helping to rebuild our biodiversity when it does not have the funds or the support to deliver on its targets? What message does that send about how seriously the Government really take their promises on this issue?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have been very lucky to work with Natural England—it does a great job, and I recently saw Tony Juniper. The United Kingdom’s contribution to international climate finance will double to £11.6 billion from 2021-25, a proportion of which will be for nature-based solutions. Yes, we have to work in this country, but turning around what the noble Baroness and the State of Nature talk about is a global problem. Our global spending is growing very considerably indeed.

Farm Subsidies

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on farm subsidies after 2020.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests, as set out in the register. Continuity for farmers is important and 2020 direct payments will be paid in the same way as they are now. From 2021, there will be a seven-year transition to our new policy supporting farmers for the public goods they provide, in particular through their stewardship of the farmed environment. We will phase out direct payments, with the reduction starting in 2021. Financial support for farmers to increase their productivity and enhanced animal welfare will also be available.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure he agrees that farming has a huge potential to reverse declines in biodiversity and to take carbon out of the atmosphere. But farmers are not clear about what will be expected of them and how a new payment system will work after 2020. The Government had previously pledged the same cash total in funds for farm support until the end of this Parliament, which was originally expected to be 2022. Given that the end of the Parliament is being brought forward, does that guarantee still stand? Is the operative date for full continuation of the payments now 2022 or 2025?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, clearly there will be a new Parliament. It will be for whoever is successful in the election to take this forward. This Government are very clear that farmers deserve support. The noble Baroness is right: with 70% of the land in this country farmed, the farming community is essential if we are to enhance the environment. Our intention is clearly to continue with the transition period. There will be tests and trials, and—this is important—we will be working with farmers to ensure a scheme that is straightforward and creates results.

Plastics Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am as keen for action as my noble friend is and have asked similar questions myself. However, waste managers and local authorities will need time to install the necessary facilities and infrastructure, hence the start date, in its totality, of 2023. Currently, 100% of local authorities in England collect plastic bottles, and 78% collect plastic pots, tubs and trays. We can make progress already. We also agree that clear labelling is essential, and we will consult next year on final proposals because clearly, we must help to inform consumers better.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, may I push the Minister on this? The year 2023 seems a very long way away. It is not as though this is a new idea; it has been trialled and talked about considerably over the last couple of years. We need action on this now. There is huge public demand for action on tackling plastics, so why are the Government not able to move this agenda along more quickly? This is a really important issue that the Great British public care about.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that we need to make progress on this issue. We have been stalling on recycling and need to do much better. But think of the materials that will be in this core set: plastics, glass, metal, paper, food waste and garden waste. For certain local authorities—one thinks of Newham, which, at 14%, has the lowest recycling rate in the country—we will have to ensure that they change their systems absolutely. I said that this will be comprehensive in 2023, but many local authorities are already undertaking good work on this.

Common Fisheries Policy and Animals (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords for their rightly penetrating questions. I stress that the purpose of this instrument is overwhelmingly to ensure that we have the most up-to-date statute book. As I say, there are no policy changes in it.

My noble friend the Duke of Montrose and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked about devolution. The UK Government and the devolved Administrations have agreed that it is essential to maintain common approaches in a number of areas after we leave. We are therefore working together to develop a new UK framework made up of legislative and non-legislative elements. Clearly, the Fisheries Bill—which sets out shared objectives as a key legislative element—includes a requirement to publish a joint fisheries statement, which will be drafted jointly by the four Administrations and will contain policies that address these shared objectives. The policies in the joint fisheries statement will be binding. Non-legislative elements include a memorandum of understanding, which would build on the existing fisheries concordat and UK-wide quota management rules. We know that Parliament will be dissolved, so it is absurd for me to try to say when the Fisheries Bill will come back. This is another piece of primary legislation that, whatever the outcome of the general election, will no doubt have to be addressed.

My noble friend the Duke of Montrose and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, raised the issue of amalgamation consolidation. We all understand that EU law comprises a large number of regulations dealing with different areas. The purpose of the withdrawal Act SIs is to ensure continuity by making retained EU law operate correctly on exit. That is why—I choose these words carefully—no consolidation of the SIs themselves is planned. However, importantly, the National Archives has launched two new services. The first is a new EU exit website archive; the second is the addition of EU legislation to the Government’s legislation website, LEGISLATION.GOV.UK. This brings together the text of EU legislation and details of the UK corrections, as well as some additional features, including a timeline of the changes so far. We believe that these two services will help to aid legal certainty and support research in preparation for leaving. After we leave, the National Archives will maintain the EU legislation on LEGISLATION. GOV.UK, incorporating amendments made by the UK into the texts.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Can I clarify something? When we had the briefing earlier, we talked about there being almost a master version that people could access, even if it was not widely published. The Minister implied that this is not what the National Archives is doing. Can he clarify that there will be a master document that brings all this together and which is easily accessible for all stakeholders and businesses who want to access it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, I can. My purpose in reading out, “This brings together the texts of EU legislation and details of the UK corrections”, is precisely this: I think that we discussed it at earlier meetings and it makes common sense. The only way that I can understand any of this—my goodness me, we have done more than 180 of these—is to read the Explanatory Memorandum rather than the SI. Unless one has that amalgamation or consolidation, the SIs alone are very difficult to decipher. That is precisely why I read out what I did about the work that is going on: so that there will be clarity and understanding.

My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe asked about the all-important issue of enforcement. In England, our enforcement system is delivered by a number of agencies working in partnership—in particular, the Marine Management Organisation, or MMO, the Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authority and the Royal Navy. Patrols are undertaken by the Royal Navy’s offshore patrols vessels, and physical checks and surveillance by the MMO, using a combination of monitoring systems including vessel monitoring, electronic reporting and data systems and remote electronic monitoring. Although the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, is not in his place, he and I went up to the MMO at Newcastle and had an interesting look at this. The noble Lord was particularly pleased because many of the officials were originally from the Royal Navy. There is a recognition that there will be an increase in control and enforcement capability, including increased personnel to train as warranted marine enforcement officers and act in support roles at the MMO, and greater levels of aerial and surface surveillance.

I should probably say that control and enforcement is a devolved matter. Nevertheless, Defra, the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive are working closely together to share information and ensure a robust approach to monitoring, compliance and enforcement across UK waters.

Single-use Plastics

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, a lot of us are now very much using renewable bottles. I am pleased to say that, in the Year of Green Action, I have one in my office that is very useful. That is why I mentioned the £100 million of research in my original reply, because clearly there are still a lot of answers that we do not know and we want to do things better. That is why there is £20 million for the Plastics Research and Innovation Fund, a further £20 million for the plastics and waste investment fund and £66 million through the Industrial Strategy Challenge Fund. All of these are part of what we need to move to, which is reducing plastic, and, wherever possible where we have plastic—and we will, of course, need plastic for things such as medicine and medical facilities and so forth—ensuring that we reduce, reuse and recycle sensibly.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, in her first Commons debate, the new Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, repeated the mantra that the Government needed time to get the primary legislation on plastic waste right. Given that the Minister has repeated time and again to this House that he understands the urgency of this issue, has he persuaded his boss perhaps to speed up that legislation for which we have been waiting for quite some time, and might we get to see that legislation listed in the Queen’s Speech?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we have said that we will be introducing the environment Bill in the second Session. I very much look forward to it, if I am in position, and hope that this will be something on which we could all work, because that is one of the key features. When I make inquiries about whether we need primary legislation for some of things we need to do, I am advised that we do. That is why it will need to be done through the environment Bill. I absolutely take the point: we have a finite planet and the longer we wait, the more damage that we will have to deal with. We are still producing too much plastic; that is why we need to advance and why the Plastics Pact is so important in working with industry. We are starting to see success on that, but we need to do a very lot more.

Charities: Plastic Bag Charges

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have looked into this very thoroughly and I understand concerns about the time is it taking, but we are required under the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 to carry out regulatory measures and assess business impacts which are reviewed by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. I know I am getting into the realms of Sir Humphrey, but it is about the detailed feedback on methodology. Given that this charge will affect every smallholder, market trader and charity shop, we are attending to the comments that have come back from the Regulatory Policy Committee. I would like to make progress, and we will do, but we have to go through the due processes. Also, the SI will be affirmative and that will take some time.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the issue of regulation with regard to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, but the scope of that Act applies to all devolved nations, yet Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have already extended the plastic bag charge to small and medium-sized enterprises. What justification can there be for this? We are waiting only for England to catch up—everybody else has done it. Wales did it in 2011 and Scotland did it in 2013. It is now 2019. I would have thought that the scope of that Act would have allowed England to catch up by now.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The magnitude and quantum of the number of businesses that will be involved in England will, as I think everyone would agree, be much more significant. As I have said, we are working through the requirements as we understand and have been informed about them. The Regulatory Policy Committee has come back to us with detailed comments on the methodology. We have to receive a positive rating feedback from the RPC. We want to do that because we think there are significant benefits from increasing the charge from 5p to 10p and applying it to all retailers.

Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving that the Bill do now pass I wish to express my gratitude to all noble Lords for their interest in the Bill and for their thoughtful—and sometimes challenging—contributions. I am grateful for the positive engagement and support from the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb on the Opposition Benches.

This Bill was a manifesto commitment of my party. While support from across the House has been notable, I have been struck by the level of scrutiny which your Lordships have devoted to the Bill—and rightly so. I also place on record my appreciation of Defra officials and all those who have assisted this Bill to, I hope, its successful conclusion.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and his civil servants for the considerable support and help they have given us during the conduct of this Bill. Indeed, the Minister showed considerable patience and skill in addressing our concerns and steering the Bill through to what we all felt was a speedy conclusion. Banning wild animals in circuses has been a policy of our party for some time, and I am very pleased that we were able to play a part in guiding the Bill towards the statute book before the Recess. So I very much echo the thanks of the Minister and will just add that, whatever happens in the coming days, I hope that he will be in his place in the autumn. From our side, we certainly feel that he deserves it.

Biodiversity Duty: Public Authorities

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Countess is right that, as the Government implement, with others, our 25-year environment plan, we will build on existing reporting mechanisms to drive further improvement. Some of the priorities set out, including the condition of our protected sites and the creation and restoration of wildlife-rich habitats, are already under a reporting duty, but we will work on how we can take forward an enhanced reporting mechanism.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK is now among the most nature-depleted nations in the world, so it was good to hear the Secretary of State say last week that he wants to strengthen the duty of public authorities not just to conserve but to enhance nature. Will the Minister pass on the message that that will be a hollow commitment if it is not backed by the resources and energy that local authorities will need to carry out those duties effectively? What are the Government doing to work on a cross-departmental basis to deliver that?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the environment Bill—obviously, this is a second Session piece of legislation—is designed to plot a course precisely to restore and enhance nature and the environment and to do many other things but particularly to introduce a pioneering new system of green governance. It is clearly essential that we enhance nature. That is why species such as the chough and the bittern are recovering and there are a number of reintroductions, such as the short-haired bumble bee. We are working on a number of species, but we need to improve habitats across the board.

Textiles and Clothing Sectors: Environmental Sustainability

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch to ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve the environmental sustainability of the textiles and clothing sectors.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working with WRAP and the industry through the Sustainable Clothing Action Plan to reduce the industry’s carbon emissions, water usage and waste. Recently we launched a £4.7 million grant scheme to support innovation in plastic and textile recycling. We are also undertaking the necessary research to develop an extended producer responsibility scheme for textiles. To drive the market towards durable, repairable and recyclable products, we are developing proposals on regulatory standards and labels.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, but does he share my concern about the huge environmental impact of throwaway fashion trends? In the UK, we buy more clothes per person than in any other country in Europe—five times what we bought in the 1980s—and we have created 1.3 million tonnes of waste. At the same time, textile production creates 1.2 billion tonnes of carbon every year—more than aviation and shipping combined. What are the Government doing to educate consumers to act more sustainably and wear their clothes for longer, and why do they not make textile producers pay for the environmental cost of materials that cannot be reused, repaired or recycled?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is precisely why it is very important that the Sustainable Clothing Action Plan, which includes 60% of those involved in the clothing industry in this country, bears fruit. There has already been an 11.9% drop in carbon per tonne and a 17.7% drop in water per tonne of clothing. We need to ensure that that is our direction of travel, and it is why I mentioned labelling. Clearly, most consumers want to do the right thing. I find fast fashion a strange concept, in so far as I am not a good example of it. I think we should use clothes for longer and repair them, and I am in the market for knowing where my shirts can be repaired.

Plastic Bag Charge

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I first salute my noble friend’s tenacity on this matter. We do want to make progress. We estimate that, overall, surplus income to charities from charging would be £29 million in year one. Clearly, I recognise the importance of reducing bags in circulation, and it is important to register that six out of seven supermarket chains are phasing out the single-use carrier bag by the end of this year. The whole point of the charge is to change consumer behaviour—that is really what this is all about.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has hit the nail on the head. The Secretary of State has been strong on rhetoric but weak on action. Yesterday, he made what was billed as his farewell landmark speech. The truth is that this Government have failed to bring forward a single piece of primary legislation on waste since the last election. So, before he goes, will the Minister put in a special plea to his boss for urgent action to end single-use plastics and introduce the plastic bag charge for which we have been waiting for a very long time?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I very much hope that it is not the Secretary of State’s farewell message, because he has shown great leadership in ensuring that the enhancement of the environment is in everyone’s mindset. We introduced a world-leading ban on microbeads in rinse-off personal care. We announced a ban on the sale and distribution of plastic straws and stirrers, and plastic-stemmed cotton buds, which is due to come in next April. There is plenty of work. I always wish to take speedy action on this, but we need to get it right and we will need to do research on things such as biodegradable plastics so that we make the right choice for the environment.

Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I have great respect for the positions of the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and I agree that decision-making in this House should be based on sound evidence. That is always how we operate.

The issue of guidance was raised at Second Reading and debated again in Committee. It is important that we have detailed guidance to support the core objectives of this Bill, which has widespread support. At Second Reading, we were pleased that the Minister placed on record that the guidance will be published by 20 November, two months before the Bill comes into effect. We were also persuaded that the common-sense approach to spelling out the details of many of the issues that noble Lords were raising—such as the definition of “travelling circus”—would be to include them in the guidance, rather than on face of the Bill.

Let me make our position clear. Our priority is to finish all stages of this Bill before the coming recess, so that it can be put on the statute book. It is a good Bill, which delivers on my party’s long-standing commitment to ban wild animals in circuses. Any amendments passed today would jeopardise it. I therefore urge the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, to consider that and to withdraw her amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, this new clause would require the Secretary of State to produce guidance on the provisions of the Act by no later than 20 November 2019. It would also require guidance to be approved by resolution of both Houses, including if and when guidance is revised. I say particularly to my noble friend Lady Fookes and to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that I have already stated on the official record during debates on this Bill at Second Reading and in Committee that the Government will be producing guidance. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, has said, that guidance will be issued by 20 November 2019, two months before the commencement of the Act.

As I confirmed at Second Reading, we do not consider it appropriate for the guidance to be statutory. The aim of the guidance is not to set out additional requirements or obligations but to provide clarity on the Government’s interpretation of certain terms used in the Bill and the approach that will be taken to enforcement. If a challenge is brought, ultimately it will be for the courts to interpret the Act. This is the position taken by the Scottish Government, who have produced well-considered non-statutory guidance to accompany their Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Act 2018, which is a good example of the type of guidance Defra will be looking to produce.

The Government’s commitment to issue guidance is on the record; I put it on the record again. I should also add that the Government have committed, during debates on the Bill in the other place, to consult with welfare groups, the police and other stakeholders on the guidance. Defra officials have already begun the process of drafting the guidance. If my noble friend Lady Fookes, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, or indeed any other noble Lords wish to see the guidance in draft before it is issued, I would of course be pleased to share it with them.

There is also a timing and practical point, which a number of your Lordships have already raised, with regards to my noble friend’s amendment. I recognise that my noble friend is speaking to the principle of having statutory guidance, but I have made it very clear as to the work that we will undertake on the contents of the guidance and the timings for publication. I am concerned that my noble friend’s amendment does not allow sufficient time for both Houses to consider the guidance between the Bill gaining Royal Assent and the deadline for the guidance to be published on 20 November.

As I have said, it will, and it should, be for the courts to provide the ultimate interpretation of this Act. The guidance that we will produce will aid circuses and enforcers in understanding the requirements of the Act by providing an explanation of some of the key terms used. This is a particular point that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, is getting at—I understand it. The Government have no further intention beyond this measure in terms of wild animals in circuses and travelling circuses. The guidance will set out examples of the types of activities that the Government consider would and would not constitute a “travelling circus”. So, for example, the guidance will make clear that we do not consider that the Bill affects activities such as travelling bird of prey displays, festive reindeer displays, educational visits to schools involving small zoo animals or wild animals used in television or film work, for example.

The guidance will give examples of what the Government intend to be meant and not meant by performance and exhibition, as used in the Bill. So, for example, “exhibition” would include positioning a wild animal in a manner calculated to promote the circus, whether or not a payment is required, whereas a wild animal spotted in a field by a passing member of the public grazing unadorned—where that viewing is not being encouraged by the circus—would not count as being “exhibited”.

My noble friend Lady Fookes also spoke at Second Reading about the definition of “wild animal”. The guidance will provide examples of animals considered not to be commonly domesticated in Great Britain from the definition of “wild animal”. The guide to the provisions of the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 provides advice on what animals may fall into either the normally domesticated or not normally domesticated categories, and we plan to draw from that approach. So, for example, the guidance will explain that cats, dogs and horses would not be deemed “wild animals” under the Bill, but tigers, wolves and zebras would be.

That brings me to the final reason as to why we do not believe this amendment is necessary or desirable. The purpose of our guidance will be to aid interpretation and provide clarity on the approach that the Government will take in relation to enforcement; it will go no further. It will not introduce any additional requirements or obligations with which circus operators would have to comply. Accordingly, it will be quite different from the type of guidance which would usually be statutory, such as the codes of practice that Defra issues under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. These codes of practice set out what animal owners should do to meet the welfare needs of their animals, as required under that Act. They can be used in courts as evidence in cases brought before them relating to poor welfare of animals, and as such are rightly subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The Defra guidance on this Bill will merely explain in more detail the Government’s view of how the Bill will work in practice.

The Government feel that, given the circumstances, and the fact that the guidance will explain only what is already covered by the Bill, non-statutory guidance is not only desirable but appropriate. As I have said—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was seeking this confirmation—the guidance will be considered with welfare groups, the police, stakeholders and, in particular, circuses, and will be published no later than 20 November this year.

As I have said, if any noble Lords would like to see a draft copy of the guidance, given that officials are aiming to have a first draft ready for wider circulation by the time the House returns in September, then I would be very pleased to hear from them. I will ensure that there is an opportunity to comment on the draft.

I understand the intention of my noble friend’s amendment, but we should now be making speedy process on this legislation. I very much hope that, with the reassurances I have given today to my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, she will feel in a position to withdraw her amendment.

Litter Strategy

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. That is why education and awareness are key elements of the litter strategy; we want every child to learn about the impacts of litter. Citizenship education is part of the statutory national curriculum at key stages 3 and 4. There are also 19,200 schools in England which are registered eco-schools—that is around 79%, and this number is growing daily. The Great Big School Clean was central to the Great British Spring Clean. There is very much more to do, but we certainly need to work with the next generation to have a better environment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we have been waiting for the introduction of a bottle deposit scheme, which would play a significant part in reducing litter from plastic bottles and tin cans, for some time now. Given that the Government’s latest consultation on this issue was completed a couple of months ago, what is now stopping them from introducing this measure, which would have widespread popular support and do a great deal to tackle the litter problem?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that the deposit return scheme is a very important part of what we need to do. There clearly needs to be further work with business to ensure that the scheme runs satisfactorily when we implement it. The first consultation closed on 13 May. This is very important in terms of littering and of increasing recycling. These two things go together. I am as impatient as the noble Baroness to get this done as soon as possible.

Soil Health

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this will clearly be a collaborative matter between industry and government. I am very pleased that regenerative agriculture is very much the buzzword among the farming community. The two-day Groundswell conference run by the Cherry family in Hertfordshire shows the energy for reduced or minimum till, herbal leys and winter cropping. All that is an indication of the future and the Government are right behind it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, given the increased evidence of soil degradation in the UK and its importance to the very basics of human existence, why does the Government’s 25-year environment plan not have headline targets for improving soil health with the funding to make it a reality, as recommended by the Natural Capital Committee?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am very pleased to say that research was commissioned in November 2018 to develop soil monitoring. It is being undertaken by the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, which will work on healthy soil indicators—included in the 25-year environment plan indicator framework—and a framework for soil monitoring. It is very important that this is done.

Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, as other noble Lords said, it is a shame that the noble Lords concerned were not there at Second Reading, where Members from different Benches raised a number of these issues. I must say, we were very satisfied with the Minister’s answer. We were persuaded that the definition of “circus” would be better dealt with in guidance, and were pleased at his assurance that the guidance will be available before the Bill comes into effect so that circus owners’ responsibilities are absolutely clear in advance. That precisely addressed the issue raised by several noble Lords this afternoon: that if we broaden the definition too much, it includes falconry and county shows, but if we make it too narrow, it imposes a burden on circus owners when managing their circuses. We were persuaded that the definition that has been spelled out here would not be helpful to circus owners in the longer term, so we agreed on this way forward.

The noble Lord mentioned wild animals, which we will come on to when we consider the other amendments. The Bill’s purpose is to deal with wild, not domesticated, animals; we should recognise the difference. On that basis, and with the assurance that I hope the Minister can give us once again, I hope that we can move forward.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment seeks to introduce a definition of “travelling circus” into the Bill. As has been said, these matters were discussed at Second Reading. My remarks may therefore repeat what I have already said to your Lordships.

We chose not to provide a definition of “circus” in the Bill because we believe that it is better to use its common meaning. We believe that the same principle applies to “travelling circus”. Let me expand on that. We do not believe that a definition is necessary. “Travelling circus” is a commonly used and well-understood term; we do not think that enforcers or the courts will have problems spotting one. In fact, my noble friend Lady Anelay went to the heart of the matter. I think that my noble friend Lord Mancroft may not have envisaged the problem with providing a definition: that it could result in a definition that is too wide and takes in other activities that we do not wish to see banned. Alternatively, it could be drawn too narrowly and provide operators with parameters by which to circumnavigate the ban. A common-understanding approach means that it will always be relevant.

Also, in its pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, the EFRA Committee agreed that we do not need to define “circus”. To assist in clarifying what the legislation will cover, we will draw up guidance; the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and my noble friend Lady Anelay referred to this. The Scottish Government, who also chose not to define “circus” in their Act, have taken this approach, and we will take a similar one. I can confirm that we will publish guidance to the Bill by 20 November, two months before the ban comes into effect, as I said at Second Reading.

Kew Gardens (Leases) (No. 3) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 5th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, with the greatest of respect, none of us can command the certainty of what our successors may do. We are here, doing what we can. That is why I am pleased that in the next amendment we will be discussing our protections, which I have already outlined in considerable detail. I have taken great care and attention when discussing this with the trustees and the executive, all of whom have the ultimate bona fides with regard to the future of Kew.

I believe that Parliament, in its scrutiny, is undertaking what is right: the Bill gives Kew the capacity to reduce its maintenance liabilities and running costs, which must be desirable. It generates additional income from property that will help Kew to achieve its core objectives—which is desirable—maintain its status as a UNESCO world heritage site, and to improve the quality of its estate. I do not mean to be facetious, but resources are not infinite. I do not yet know any noble Lord who truly thinks that we have infinite resources, however wonderful Kew is. Therefore this approach must be right. I go to Kew often, and there are buildings there which we are not looking after as well as any of us would wish. This is what Kew wishes us to do, because this is the way that will help it to fulfil its statutory functions.

I say in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that, having spoken to those at Kew, I have given examples of buildings that they believe could be better suited to a commercial let but with all the current protections and what I believe we may well go on to. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I very much welcome the steps the Minister has taken to listen to the concerns that have been raised around the Chamber in the earlier debates and again today. I know that he has done his best to answer all the issues that we have thrown at him over that period, and he has done so again today. It was helpful to hear the examples that he gave. I felt that in earlier debates there was a bit of a black hole, but he has populated that black hole with some credible examples. None of us wants buildings on the site left empty, obsolete or run down, and if there is a plan to deal with those in a constructive way, I think we would all want that to happen.

My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours was right to say that the lawyers will pore over these debates in years to come, so it has been helpful to have that on the record as Kew’s general intent. The Minister caveated his comments by pointing out that we will shortly have another debate. On the basis that there is more than one way to skin a cat—this was only one way and another is coming up—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Office for Environmental Protection

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister concerned about the criticisms made by the Commons EFRA Committee, whose Conservative chair said recently of the draft environment Bill:

“There is also little point in setting up an environmental watchdog if it is unable to fulfil its essential function of holding the government to account”.


Does he recognise that criticism and, if so, what is his department doing to address those shortcomings?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

First, my Lords, perhaps I may wish the noble Baroness a very happy birthday.

Kew Gardens (Leases) (No. 3) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we have considerable sympathy with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. We have also tabled amendments which are another way of trying to address the same issue. Our concern is that this short Bill puts too much individual power into the Secretary of State’s hands, and we need to make sure that the right checks and balances are in place so that that power is used wisely. We seek to have an external body, such as UNESCO, to oversee the powers being allocated, with the Secretary of State unable to influence what UNESCO is doing. However, I appreciate that the noble Lords are coming at this from a different direction.

The point of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, was well made: it is not about now but about the future, about other times and places when other players will be in post, and we need to make sure that they exercise their responsibility wisely. Whatever statements were made about the current Secretary of State, this is about future Secretaries of State and indeed future members of the board, and the need to make sure that they have the correct relationship.

This is also about different circumstances. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, said that people juggle with choices, and that is absolutely right. They will always be under pressure and there will always be a shortage of money, so we need to make sure that the financial demands on the shoulders of the individuals concerned do not lead them to make short-term choices which would damage Kew in any way. I therefore have considerable sympathy with the amendment; I am interested to know how the Minister will respond to this and thank the noble Lord for raising this issue.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords, particularly my noble friends. The amendment seeks to apply consultation by the Charity Commission to the actions of Defra and RBG Kew, which, I should say, is a charity specifically exempt from direct regulation by the Charity Commission under Section 22 of and Schedule 3 to the Charities Act 2011.

I say this with passion: there is very little difference between what we are trying to achieve in protecting Kew when granting these leases and what we are trying to achieve for future generations, whoever has responsibility for these matters. The Bill does not affect any of the high protections already afforded to Kew; it is about changing a figure of 31 to 150. All the protections will continue to apply. I absolutely understand my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s point, and that of my noble friend Lord Eccles, who has great experience in this field; their intention clearly is not to attack the Bill or Kew—quite the reverse. It is in everyone’s interest to look after Kew.

I need to set out something by way of legal advice on the amendment; I received the advice from senior departmental government lawyers and counsel.

Farming Communities: Rural Crime

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not fundamentally an issue of police resources? The current policing formula does not really take account of the particular challenges and problems in rural areas. The Minister talked about organised criminal gangs; as we know, they are operating in a number of areas, stealing livestock and farm machinery, almost to order. They cause real distress to isolated local communities. Would the Minister agree to speak to his colleagues in the Home Office about how those communities can be better supported? In these isolated communities, people feel they are fighting crime on their own and they need help. It is a question of police resources and perhaps the Minister would take it up.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I certainly will. As rural affairs Minister, I take the whole issue of the way in which rural communities are looked after very seriously. This is particularly important for isolated communities. The police resources allocation formula is a calculation that uses various data sources to share money between authorities. The formula predicts the relative workload or need for each category of police activity. As Rural Affairs Minister, I am keenly aware of the fact that there is a lot of work that can be done with rural communities, through working with the police and police and crime commissioners. I will certainly take this up with colleagues in the Home Office, because rural communities must be looked after.

Animal Health, Plant Health, Seeds and Seed Potatoes (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 3rd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his introduction to this SI and for arranging a helpful briefing beforehand. I also declare an interest as the chair of Rothamsted Enterprises, which is part of a research institute that does considerable research into plants and seeds.

When I read through this SI, I had a very real sense of déjà vu as, of course, these are issues we have debated before. I do not intend to repeat everything I said about the importance of biodiversity at that time. Many of those issues were captured expertly by the EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee report, Brexit: Plant and Animal Biosecurity. The committee made the point:

“Geographical proximity means that the EU will always be a key source of biosecurity risks to the UK”,


and therefore argued that it was essential that the UK Government negotiate continued participation in as many of the EU’s notification and intelligence-sharing networks as possible.

The Commons European Statutory Instruments Committee also intervened to argue that the proposed SI should be upgraded to affirmative, because of its political and legal importance. We agree with that analysis. Could the Minister update the House on where we have reached in discussions with EU partners on shared intelligence and continued co-operation on biosecurity issues post Brexit? Can he update us on the plans for a UK database to capture biosecurity alerts and share information with the EU?

Turning to the substance of this SI, we accept that these amendments to the original SIs are necessary. However, we are also concerned that they are the product of what seems a rushed job, in which errors and unintended consequences will be inevitable. The original SIs were debated only a fortnight ago and now we are back here again, correcting new errors and omissions that have surfaced. I have to say that, for an SI intended to correct minor errors, there seem to be rather a lot of them.

Luckily, these have been identified before our potential Brexit day but, if a no-deal Brexit goes through, I am sure we will still be playing catch-up on other errors that come to light in months to come. Indeed, the Explanatory Memorandum makes it clear that since this SI went to the sifting committee, further changes have been made to the text. I wonder whether the sifting committee has been notified of that, because adding wording at that late stage, however minor it might be, seems a rather strange way to go about the process.

This is the inevitable consequence of civil servants and lawyers working under unreasonable pressure and parliamentarians not having enough time to review the legislation thoroughly. The Minister said that biosecurity concerns were paramount. Can he reassure the House that he is confident that our biosecurity will not be compromised by the need for these and other corrections, some of which may not even have been identified yet? Has an internal risk assessment been carried out to measure the threat of a biosecurity breach through incomplete legislative barriers?

Throughout this whole process, one of our major concerns has been the capacity to check materials coming across the EU border into the UK. We have never been convinced that there are sufficient vets and inspectors to check imports into the UK thoroughly. Can the Minister assure us that all regulated plant material brought into this country via the EU from third countries will be checked for pests and diseases? Can he also update us on the controls that will apply for animal and plant products crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland?

On the specific changes, the Explanatory Memorandum addresses the regulation of seeds for unlisted vegetable varieties. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, gave some interesting examples. It goes on to explain that the regulations provide an amendment to allow a two-year interim period for the marketing of these varieties. The reason given in paragraph 2.15 is that it is,

“for the purpose of gaining knowledge and practical experience during cultivation in England”.

When I read this, I thought it sounded rather patronising to horticultural specialists, implying that they need to build on their practical experience. It rather implied that they did not understand the nature of the seeds that they were cultivating. We have heard a little clarification of the purpose of that interim two-year break, but it would be helpful if the Minister could clarify a little more.

Paragraph 2.10 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to another SI on plant health in which provisions are out of date, meaning that we will need another SI before Brexit day. This issue was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. Can the Minister update the House on the progress of this separate SI? Has it now been laid, considered and agreed by this House?

Finally, may I raise the territorial range of this SI? In his introduction, the Minister set out some of the explanation. I understand that different parts of the instrument apply differently—some to the whole of the UK, some to England and Wales and some to Northern Ireland. If only part of this SI relates to Scotland, are there good reasons why the Government have chosen to have a separate policy on some aspects of this? As the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, what is the justification for a pick and mix, which is what seems to be happening at the moment? What are the implications for businesses, which are having to operate under those separate regimes when some things are UK-wide and some are devolved? I understand that there is a framework agreement, but I do not think that on issues such as biosecurity it was ever intended that they should be mixed up in this way.

It would be helpful if the Minister could explain which sections refer to Scotland alone, and what steps are being taken to create a UK-wide biosecurity framework with shared powers and responsibilities. Are we providing leadership at a national level to try to ensure that happens? It is in everyone’s interest. I look forward to his response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Byford and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Jones of Whitchurch. Many of us have been battling over these statutory instruments in so many areas. There may well be other opportunities, but I wish to record the enormously constructive way in which we have worked together, whatever our views, to get the right result for the statute book. Biosecurity in this area is absolutely paramount. I also say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that I accept responsibility for any errors. I am a person of detail. I do not like errors, but I am prepared to apologise and say I am sorry about it. The instruments have all gone through the normal checking process, including checks by Defra and other government lawyers as second and third eyes. They have also been scrutinised by the JCSI. Sometimes mistakes are made and I regret that, but a lot of the reason for having this discussion today is to ensure, as we always wanted to do, that what is on the EU statute book is accommodated in our own.

Insect Population

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely agree. That is why the department has supported the Bees’ Needs campaign and why Carnaby Street was renamed “Carnabee Street” last year. The owners of the street put up 720 window boxes to attract pollinators to our capital city. We all need to do something like that, whether with allotments, gardens or window boxes, or on large estates and the state estates. We need to do more to encourage the insect populations.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register of interests. The Minister talked about how much land was now being farmed in a more environmentally sound way. A number of farmers are embracing that principle and working to create biodiversity on their farmland. However, we need the research; we need the evidence that backs us up in saying that this is the most effective way to increase farm food yields in the long term. Can the Minister say a little more about funding for research, so that it is not just niche farmers providing that biodiversity but is extended as good practice across the board?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I referred to improving our evidence base: that is why we want to work with the scientific councils, which continue to fund research on insects. Our evidence base is improving because of that. For instance, the University of Bristol’s recent assessment has identified gardens and allotments as particularly good for pollinators; that refers back to the noble Countess’s question. Clearly, research is where we will learn more about alternatives to pesticides and ways to improve a habitat.

Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 13th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

And Harrogate Spring Water; I thank my noble friend. I do not say this to encourage a feeling that I am against EU produce, but I think that the British Government have taken a very pragmatic approach to an issue that I very much hope does not transpire and that we can find satisfactory arrangements.

On the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, on trade, I very much hope that EU companies would consider applying, if that were to be the case. The Government support consumer choice; that is very important. I am mindful, however, of what I have said about London tap water and other wonderful waters from all parts of the United Kingdom. Looking at the noble Lord, Lord Beith, I think of some very fine water from Northumbria. Around our country, we have these great examples. On the issue of labelling, as we know, following the death of Natasha, the Secretary of State embarked on a consultation so that people can know much more about what is in made-up food. A lot is happening, thank goodness, voluntarily, but we are having this consultation because we take very seriously the need for consumers to have all the information they desire and need.

The instrument does not amend food labelling rules—it is not intended to; it is about temporary fixes to operability. On the issue of Northern Ireland borders, only a limited range of goods will need to enter the UK, including Northern Ireland, through a border inspection post. The purpose is to protect human, animal and plant health after we have left. In a no-deal scenario, animals and animal products from countries outside the EU would need to enter Northern Ireland through a UK border inspection post, as is the case now. We will always keep our biosecurity analysed for risk.

Clearly, we are also committed as a Government to continue discussions with the Commission and the Irish Government to jointly agree long-term measures to avoid a hard border, which we strongly desire to avoid, and to limit the impact on life on the island of Ireland, which is crucial.

There may be other key points. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, asked about BIP capacity. It is considered sufficient. There are 25 UK BIPS. The estimate is for an extra 8,000 checks at UK BIPS. Port health authorities—I have quizzed this myself—have confirmed that they can meet that extra demand with existing food inspectors. Ports are developing more capacity to deal with it. I know that work is in progress at Calais, at Coquelles. A lot of work is going on.

I am looking for other key points that I should answer. On the issue of consultation on food labelling, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, Defra has raised stakeholder awareness of the food labelling technical notices of last September and of the amending of food labelling laws consultation, which I mentioned. Defra Ministers have engaged many times with key stakeholders externally to the consultation.

The instrument is about technical operability, with the exception of natural mineral waters. All these areas are technical, so on the precise instrument, the answer is that it was not necessary. However, I would like to say—and perhaps will write to noble Lords about this—that there are many instances of ongoing engagement on spirit and drinks, food labelling, GMOs, animal imports and working with importers. There has also been, to date, engagement with 300 stakeholders covering 50 events. Therefore, beyond these statutory instruments, a very considerable amount of consultation and working with others has been undertaken.

This may be the last point. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, raised a question about separate food labelling across the devolved Administrations. Clearly we have to respect the devolved arrangements and food labelling is devolved, but it is fair to say that all four parts of the kingdom are working together very closely to ensure that there is no disruption to the UK internal market in the event of a no-deal scenario, or indeed any scenario. I think that there is a recognition among all parts of the kingdom that the internal market within the UK is tremendously important and that we should work collaboratively. The evidence I have from all the SIs, on these matters and beyond, is that sense and pragmatism is prevailing.

I will study Hansard again, because there may be some points in the many questions I have sought to answer that noble Lords would like more detailed answers on.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister as he gathers his final thoughts, but it was remiss of me, since we strayed into the science of GMOs, not to have declared as interest as the chair of Rothamsted Centre for Research and Enterprise, part of Rothamsted Research, which does research into GMOs.

Brexit: Food Labelling and Food Safety

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It will, my Lords, because while we want to remain part of RASFF we cannot negotiate until we get to a certain point. We want to negotiate that continued membership because, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, says, we are a great contributor to RASFF. He knows that from all his experience. That is why there is a mutual interest in us remaining part of it, and why rapid alerts should of course go round the world whether through RASFF or INFOSAN. It is imperative that rapid alerts continue and that is what we will do.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, can I press the noble Lord on that issue? My noble friend asked who is negotiating all this. I do not see why we are not having those negotiations now, face to face, and why a new deal with the EU cannot be in place from day one after Brexit. Surely that is within the scope of the negotiations, whether there is a deal or no deal. As my noble friend has said, it is in everyone’s interest that that deal is completed by day one of exit.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we are all on the same page. We want to remain part of RASFF, but it is not just for us to decide. That is why there are negotiations between two parties, and it is not always possible for one party to insist. We think there is a mutual benefit to being a member of RASFF. That is our negotiating point, but we are negotiating on the matter, and I hope that we will succeed, as it is in everyone’s interest.

River Ecosystems

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the whole 25-year environmental plan—and, indeed, all our plans, including in the Agriculture Bill and the environmental land management schemes—is predicated on the need to enhance our environment. Water quality and water supply is clearly one of our priorities. On abstraction reform, we will certainly be looking at increasing supply, reducing demand and reducing leakages. We are already bringing back targets in many of those areas into our law.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my declaration in the register of interests. Natural England has responsibility for ensuring that our farmland is managed responsibly and our rivers protected, but its budget has been cut by 47% over the last five years. In addition, 50 staff have been poached by Defra to deal with Brexit. How can it possibly be expected to carry out its job effectively when it really does not have the resources to do it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the figures have shown how not only Natural England but the Environment Agency and the water companies have actually produced very strong improvements in difficult times, when everyone has had to retrench. River basin management plans involving Natural England, Defra and water companies are all about improving water quality across river basins from 2015 to 2021. All of this, and a lot more, is why water quality and supply will be increasingly important.

Veterinary Medicines and Animals and Animal Products (Examination of Residues and Maximum Residue Limits) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Thank you for the forward notice.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to this SI and his helpful briefing beforehand and all noble Lords who have spoken. As the EM set out, this is an important issue for animal welfare, the safety of treated animals, the people handling the medicines, consumers and the environment. It is important that we get the regulation of veterinary medicines right for the future. We know, for example, that the overuse of antibiotics in animals is contributing to a developing public health crisis, as resistance and immunity to their impact becomes more widespread. It is very important that we are able to continue to harness the best and latest scientific advice to control the use of veterinary medicines.

The EM also made it clear that a partner SI will set the future maximum residue limits. Unfortunately we do not have before us today. We have debated why that happens on many occasions, and I will not repeat those arguments.

Both the Lords and Commons Scrutiny Committees recommended that this SI should be upgraded from a negative to an affirmative procedure. They did so for two reasons, which I would like to explore in more detail. First, they had concerns about the new requirement on holders of marketing authorisations for veterinary medicines to be based in the UK. The Minister has already explained in a little detail why this is necessary. The Explanatory Memorandum states that 90 companies would have to establish a UK base. Can the Minister say whether we have concerns about the quality of any authorisations currently being carried out by these 90 companies? The cost of registering a UK base seems insignificant, but, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and others have said, the Scrutiny Committees were concerned that some of the companies would not simply bother to register and would therefore not be able to authorise EU veterinary products being imported to the UK. Can the Minister explain the consequences for animal health if this were to happen? Could there be a shortage of products? Has any risk assessment been carried out to ensure that this will not be the case?

Can the Minister also respond to concerns that if we banned products from EU companies that did not have a base in the UK, the EU could retaliate and ban UK-authorised products in the EU? Can he clarify whether products authorised by UK marketing companies will still be valid in the EU after exit? This is particularly concerning given that mutual batch testing would cease after Brexit. This would mean that additional checks for veterinary medicines manufactured in the UK and exported to the EU would have to apply. Is any dialogue taking place to ensure that these trade issues are resolved? Has an assessment of the risks to UK research and business been carried out?

The EM gives the reason for requiring a UK base as being to facilitate enforcement, as the Minister said. It goes on to say:

“The ability to prosecute a holder in appropriate circumstances is an important deterrent to bad practice”.


Can the Minister explain what these bad practice risks are? Which UK agency would prosecute the companies if bad practice continued to exist? Have there been any prosecutions in recent memory? I am trying to get to the bottom of where that concern really lies.

The Scrutiny Committee also raised concerns about the potential lowering of safety standards in respect of certain amendments. Clearly this is a scenario we would want to avoid at all costs. The SI appears to retain many of the standards currently in operation within the EU. Can the Minister confirm that we will comply with EU regulatory standards or standards at least as stringent as those currently in place?

We will no longer have the checks and balances on standards which the EU offers. Responsibility for some decisions will now be delegated to the Secretary of State. For example, under Paragraph 22, the veterinary medicines regulations are amended to say that before placing an immunological product on the market, written approval must be sought from the Secretary of State. Can the Minister clarify which agency or department will be authorised to give this approval and what scientific evidence will be required?

With regard to applications for new or amended residue limits, page 9 refers to an appropriate authority producing an assessment report with a risk assessment. In this case the appropriate authority is again defined as the Secretary of State, so will he, in effect, be making a recommendation to himself? Can the Minister clarify how the responsibilities will be defined so that there is a separate assessment and decision-making function?

There are several references to exporting countries having,

“equivalent medicines regulation standards to those of the United Kingdom”.

Can the Minister clarify who will determine whether those standards are equivalent?

For the avoidance of doubt, can the Minister state categorically that there is nothing in this SI that would enable the USA to start exporting hormone-injected beef to the UK? He will know that this is a matter of great concern to the British public. I look forward to his response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am most grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. We will consider another SI which is yet to clear JCSI. I want to put on record that I am fully seized of the point that statutory instruments should be grouped together wherever possible, appropriate and helpful to your Lordships in scrutinising regulations.

Although I mentioned it in my opening remarks deliberately, I emphasise again that this SI is absolutely about continuing existing high standards for veterinary medicines and ensuring that UK businesses and individuals can continue to access as wide a range of veterinary medicines as possible. I specifically reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that there is no way that this statutory instrument can do anything to unpick the existing ban on hormone growth promoters, as it is already in UK law. I repeat emphatically that this is not the purpose or intent of these regulations.

A number of your Lordships mentioned the requirement for marketing authorisation holders to be established in the UK, which will result in a small additional cost—there are references to £100 and a further annual fee of £40. We believe it is necessary to ensure the safety and effectiveness of UK medicines and that all companies can be held accountable for the medicines they market. We have endeavoured to make this process as simple and robust as possible. The cost of establishing a UK presence is small compared with the overall cost of developing a medicine and bringing it to market. We do not believe that companies will be discouraged from bringing their products to the UK market. All new companies wishing to market products in the UK may continue to manufacture medicines in Europe and elsewhere, but as a company they must be established here in the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right that we considered alternatives when preparing this in order to provide the same assurance that the products in question are safe and effective. Final manufacturing and product surveillance assurance processes would have been required to take place in the UK under that alternative. That would mean moving manufacturing processes and staff and would certainly have resulted in significant increases in costs to industry. This is why we chose the option that we believe provides the necessary assurances that we would require with the least impact on and cost to business. As the noble Lord, Lord Trees, said, it is a reasonable and proportionate response to what these instruments intended.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh raised the issue of UK companies wishing to market products in the EU. At this stage, the European Medicines Agency has been clear on its expectations. Marketing authorisation holders, final manufacturing certification and post-authorisation surveillance must all be located in the EU. As I have said, our approach has been somewhat different. We have intentionally intended to be pragmatic. We think that is the right way forward. On whether there will be any changes in the arrangements, this is the position as we understand it at the moment. I think this is an area where continuing collaboration is important.

I profoundly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about the imperative of reducing the use of antibiotics in livestock. We must reduce it in humans too. In livestock, there has been a 40% reduction already. We need to go further for all the reasons we understand about animal and human resistance.

Aquatic Animal Health and Alien Species in Aquaculture (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear introduction and for the courtesy of meeting us beforehand. I also thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I remind the Minister and other noble Lords who have been with us on the journey of these SIs that we remain concerned about the whole process for dealing with them. My noble friend Lord Adonis raised one of the issues, but there are a number of other process issues. I do not intend to repeat them today, but the Minister will be well aware of our concerns. For example, we do not have the aquatic animal health and alien species in aquaculture regulations here today, although the Explanatory Memorandum says they should be linked to this SI. That is just one of the issues about the rather haphazard way in which these SIs are being tabled for consideration.

However, we are broadly in agreement with these regulations. They seem to do their best to maintain the status quo in aquaculture in Northern Ireland. It is clearly important to have a strong biosecurity framework which protects animal health and gives maximum protection from imported and exported disease, so it is important that these regulations are in place from day one.

I reiterate that it is a great regret to us that we do not have a functioning Northern Ireland Executive, so that we have to make decisions in their absence. Perhaps if we were not taking up all government time on the distraction of Brexit the Government would have more time to resolve the huge political challenges that face the UK, but perhaps that is an issue for another day.

On the specifics of this SI, the Minister referred to the close co-operation of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to their shared interests, which are inevitable because they share inland waterways and a coastal aquaculture. Obviously there is a particular danger of cross-contamination within those waterways. But have the Government of the Republic of Ireland been consulted on the content of this SI, and have they registered that they are content with our proposals, given that they have such a lot in common with us?

Also, can the Minister explain in more detail how the buffer zones are intended to work? When I read the SI and the Explanatory Memorandum, I was unclear whether this was a new legislative function, and whether this is imposed around each separate aquatic business or on a larger geographical basis. Does this help protect the waterways between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

Finally, I pick up the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Macintosh. The Explanatory Memorandum explains in paragraph 7.5 that EU aquatic animal health standards, as we have them at the moment, are higher than international standards, and that if we do not adhere to EU standards in the future, that could result in the UK being unable to trade products with the EU and third countries. It goes on to say that the Government have, therefore,

“decided to maintain regulations regarding aquatic animal health at or above EU standards”.

We very much welcome this approach. It is an approach that we believe should be applied more widely across other food and animal trade issues which will be dealt with in other SIs scheduled for consideration. It could have been applied in our debate last week on pesticides, for example, but the Government took a different approach on that issue and set up a separate UK regulatory regime, which was not linked to the existing EU one.

Can the Minister clarify the actual clause in the SI that gives effect to this policy? Can he also explain the circumstances in which the principle of applying standards at least as good as those of the EU will apply in future SIs, as we all have an interest in this being rolled out more widely? I look forward to his response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful for a very thought-provoking debate on these matters. I emphasise that the amendments in this instrument are purely about technical changes to ensure that all the arrangements that are being brought over into our statute book are operable and so forth. A number of points were made; if I could run through them and then, if there are any others, I might receive some assistance.

Both my noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to equivalent or higher standards. The Explanatory Memorandum states that:

“EU law regarding aquatic animal health set standards equivalent or higher than the international standards set by the … OIE”.


We want to ensure that we are able to trade with our European partners and others post Brexit. Therefore it is vital that our aquatic animal health status is at least of equivalent or a higher standard, to ensure that there are no barriers from a disease perspective. As I have explained, particularly in Northern Ireland, the health status is very high, and there are far fewer aquatic diseases in the island of Ireland. The UK, and Northern Ireland in particular, might want to diverge precisely to set higher standards. We will be able to do so, so that we remain focused on biosecurity and proactive in preventing disease. As I said in my opening remarks, with the far fewer fish diseases that there are on the island of Ireland, that is an absolute imperative.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, mentioned the single epidemiological unit. It will of course remain. It actually does not relate to Europe; this is an arrangement agreed by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly. As I hope I have outlined, it is absolutely essential if the two Administrations are to deal effectively with ensuring that there is a healthy status.

As I said, there is excellent co-operation and collaboration between DAERA and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in aquatic animal health and aquaculture. That collaboration is regular and extensive. Both departments work closely with research institutes, such as the Marine Institute in Galway and the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute in Belfast on a range of fish health issues. Also, the north/south fisheries liaison group involves co-operation on operational issues relating to inland fisheries management. It was established by Inland Fisheries Ireland and its parent department, the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment in the Republic of Ireland, DAERA in Northern Ireland and the Loughs Agency. That is important because, if I remember rightly, the five sea loughs are cross-border. The Loughs Agency is a cross-border implementation body, established under the Belfast Good Friday agreement. In addition, there is a north/south standing scientific committee for inland fisheries. I have many other examples of the intrinsic way both parts of the island of Ireland work on these matters.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked specifically what consultation there had been with the Irish Government. Of course, as a matter of courtesy, DAERA will inform them of these technical changes at the next bilateral, but there was no formal discussion because, with the continuum of all the fora I have described, this is how it will be operable in Northern Ireland. As a matter of courtesy, DAERA of course has extensive and regular dialogue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked about buffer zones. The wording on buffer zones in this instrument is consistent across England, Wales and Scotland. There is no conferral of a legislative power. DAERA is not transposing article 49(2) of the 2006 directive, but merely ensuring that references to it in the principal regulations, or to provisions that cross-refer to it, operate properly by referring to “the competent authority” rather than “the member state”. The power for DAERA, as the competent authority, to establish buffer zones is precisely to prevent or to limit the spread of disease. The key point is that that is already conferred by Regulation 27 of the Aquatic Animal Health Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2009, which transposes article 49 of Directive 2006/88/EC. I am sorry for what seems rather a considerable number of words, but they are to show that it is within DAERA as the competent authority to establish those buffer zones.

To my noble friend Lady McIntosh I say that, yes, this is a matter for a no-deal scenario but, whether the United Kingdom leaves with no deal or not—obviously, the Government are working extremely hard with others to secure a deal—clearly some of these technical operability points would have to be attended to at some point. I do not believe that a lot of our work would have to be attended to to get it into the prism of being UK or Northern Ireland-compliant. As the competent authority, DAERA will also continue to inspect all live fish imports. The FSA in Northern Ireland has a role in relation to products going for human consumption. The MSC is a certification body only—it does not have enforcement powers in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh also raised the question of crabs. Northern Ireland is a strong exporter of crabs landed in the Province, and they are largely sold to the EU, but this should not affect any crabs exported from the Faroe Islands. I was interested in the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about the Faroe Islands, which, no doubt, will be a matter for further consideration and discussion.

The issue of tariffs is still under consideration by the Government, and the Secretary of State said yesterday at the NFU conference that it is matter on which there is considerable focus.

On the question of the export health certificates, the UK remains committed to not imposing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic under any circumstances. In a no-deal scenario, it is assumed that the EU will require an export health certificate for all exports of products of animal origin, which includes all fishery and aquaculture products. For live exports of aquatic animals, fish health certification will be required to meet EU standards—I conjecture that that would apply to Northern Ireland produce, for the reasons I have described. Consignments approved for export will have to be inspected by an official inspector before departure; that will be an increased imposition on current trading arrangements and will ultimately fall to DAERA resources.

I wonder whether there are any other points that I need to answer; if there are any, I will look again at Hansard. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that with Defra business I will use every endeavour to inform all interested noble Lords. Those who contacted the official on the telephone number found in the back of the Explanatory Memorandum—including, I think, the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Parminter—have said to me, “This is wonderful because it so rarely happens”. That is purpose of Defra being a helping hand and not a heavy one, so I encourage that. I informed a number of Northern Ireland Peers that the debate was happening, to say what it was about. They obviously thought the discussions were technical and on operability, but I am very keen that there is this dialogue in the Moses Room. A lot of detailed discussions can take place in the Moses Room. I am mindful of what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said about further discussions, but the truth is that all the noble Lords I would expect to see on an issue such as this, where there is a specialism and an interest, are here.

I will look at Hansard to see which areas I might not have precisely covered, but on the basis that I think I have covered as many as I can at the moment, I commend the regulations.

Aquatic Animal Health and Plant Health (Legislative Functions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction today, and his courtesy in providing us with a pre-briefing. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this discussion, and I refer to my entry in the register of interests. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, we reiterate our concern about the process for dealing with these SIs. Once again, we register our concern about the reliance on powers being granted to the Secretary of State without external scrutiny and challenge.

It seems a bit of an act of desperation to produce these composite SIs, which have completely different subject matters, particularly when there are other SIs in the pipeline covering more specific regulations relating to these individual topics. In retrospect, it will make it very difficult for people to navigate their way through all these different bits of legislation and the different SIs.

I turn to the aquatic animal health and plant health SI. We accept that, for the most part, the substance of this SI is non-contentious, but I have a few questions. First, this instrument transfers a number of technical legislative functions to the Secretary of State, but it also refers to “appropriate authority” and “other responsible authorities”, suggesting that these powers may be sub-delegated. If that is the case, to which public bodies do the Government propose to sub-delegate these powers? Assuming that these powers will be sub-delegated, will the public bodies have to report on their use of the powers under the relevant provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018?

The second issue is on plant health. The SI transfers responsibility to the Secretary of State for import restrictions and bans on plants and plant produce, as well as emergency measures for restrictions on imports to prevent plant pests being imported. According to the Explanatory Memorandum, this power is conferred,

“in light of developments in scientific or technical knowledge or technically justified and consistent with the risk to plant health”.

So far, so good, but could the Minister clarify how these functions will be carried out by the Secretary of State, which organisations will be authorised to make that scientific or technical assessment, what will the status be of any advice given in these circumstances, and what additional resources will be required to carry out these functions previously carried out by the EU Commission?

Finally, I have a question relating to the controls on disease in aquaculture animals. In Regulation 6, on page 3, reference is made to adding, varying or removing an exotic or non-exotic disease from the proscribed list. Obviously, we want to make sure that diseases harmful to aquatic animals are controlled and are not inadvertently spread from the EU or third countries, but the circumstances in which these controls are put in place in aquaculture seem to concentrate solely on the adverse economic impact and the likely production or export losses. There is no reference to the welfare or suffering of the species involved.

I realise I am treading on a controversial issue here, but should the Secretary of State not have a wider responsibility to ensure good animal husbandry and a disease-free environment for these fish regardless of the economic consequences? I realise that this SI transfers current EU regulations, but is this something that the Minister will aspire to address when the opportunity arises? I hope that when he replies he will take into account the increasing evidence that fish that are farmed in an aquaculture environment that most closely replicates their natural environment are kept disease free and are less stressed, more productive and more robust in the longer term, so there is a longer-term benefit all round.

Turning to the Animals (Legislative Functions) (EU Exit) Regulations, again it would be helpful to know the appropriate authority in these regulations and the extent to which its advice is given independently and made public. I also have a few issues of detail to raise with the Minister. First, like the noble Lord, Lord Trees, I am concerned that the regulations on TSEs seem to water down the requirement in the annual monitoring programme to check animals in remote areas with low animal density. They also allow the overall programme to be revised based on a comprehensive risk analysis. Who will carry out this risk analysis and what organisations will be consulted before any changes are made?

The regulations also allow proteins derived from fish to be added to the feed of young ruminants based on a scientific assessment of their dietary needs. Will the Minister clarify who will be responsible for carrying out the scientific assessment? Does he accept that any relaxation of the current rules relating to TSEs should be made with extreme caution?

I refer the Minister to Regulation 7, which relates to the trade in seal products; I gave him notice of this question. As I read this regulation, it seems to water down our current ban on products derived from seal hunts. For,

“Commission shall adopt implementing acts”,

it substitutes,

“the Secretary of State may make regulations”.

It goes on:

“The Secretary of State may, by regulations … prohibit the placing on the market of seal products derived from seals killed as a result of a seal hunt conducted primarily for commercial reasons”.


What is intended to be achieved by that change and why do the regulations not spell out clearly a continued requirement to ban such products on the basis currently in operation in the EU? I look forward to his response on these issues.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has again been a very interesting and helpful debate. I understand that this is a subject that excites public concern and interest. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, was concerned about future Secretaries of State. This instrument is about a very distinct area of operability. Changes of the sort the noble Baroness was envisaging would come through a completely different route. The work we are doing today is very technical and is about issues that the European Parliament and Council have defined as being for the Commission to manage. These instruments are very tightly drawn. Therefore, any changes of the sort that the noble Baroness might be envisaging are not in them because they are not about changing policies in the areas that have come up in these regulations.

I turn to one issue immediately. I can safely say to your Lordships that I am extremely concerned about TSEs and extremely cautious. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, raised them. I want to make it absolutely clear that the TSE monitoring programme will not be watered down by the amendments; it will continue unchanged after we leave. Similarly, the Government have no plans to alter feeding stuffs regulations. These regulations exactly reflect the current EU programmes. Our existing monitoring programme for TSEs will remain at the current level, and we have no plans to change it. The Animal and Plant Health Agency is the national reference laboratory for TSEs and has the latest scientific evidence. I say that only to ensure that there is a recognition of the expertise that we have, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in particular, will know. Obviously one can never bind anyone else, but this is an area where, given what we have seen in a whole range of areas, we should always be extremely cautious.

As to whether there is any intention of loosening restrictions, the Government do not allow the feeding of fish meal to young ruminants and have no plans to alter that position. Again, any future changes would have to be based on a scientific assessment of the dietary needs of young ruminants and of the control aspects for permitting the young of ruminant species to be fed proteins derived from fish. However, as I said, this Government have no plans to alter the current situation.

I should have declared my farming interests and I apologise to your Lordships for not having done so.

Following the outbreaks of BSE and foot and mouth disease, which resulted from animal by-products entering the animal feed chain, in 2003 the EU implemented legislation to ensure the safe handling and disposal of animal by-products. The Government take very seriously the ever-present risk of the entry and spread of serious livestock disease. We all recall the pain and distress of those outbreaks. I can just remember the 1967 outbreak when I was at school. I was quite young, but I remember it very dramatically. There was also the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001. I want to be absolutely emphatic on this issue. Although this instrument has nothing to do with these matters in terms of the policy, which is not being changed, we simply must not and will not relax our guard. High standards of biosecurity are essential.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell—I was going to say “my noble friend”—asked about rabbits and hares. Rabbit, and possibly hare, form a normal and much greater part of the diet in parts of the EU. There are currently no FSA-approved establishments for the slaughter of farmed rabbits or indeed hares—I have never even heard of hares being farmed. While the UK has a small rabbit farming industry, we are unaware of any commercial farms producing rabbits or hares for meat. Article 11 of directive 1099/2009 provides a derogation that currently allows farms to slaughter up to 10,000 rabbits, hares and poultry per annum outside an FSA-approved establishment, but there are currently no FSA-approved establishments here. This provision was brought back as part of that regime, but I am not sure it has a UK resonance. We have no plans to change any of the arrangements.

Vehicle Pollution: Children’s Health

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is a very good point. I know that the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants has started to consider the effects of air pollution on adverse birth outcomes, which may address the question from the noble Lord, Lord Winston. However, what the noble Baroness said about not only the physical but the mental aspects of air pollution is hugely important.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Government have been very slow in taking action on this very serious issue of the effect of air pollution on child health? The fact is that they have been dragged to the courts to make them take action, but their response has been too little, too late. What is stopping the Government now revisiting that 2040 deadline for the sale of polluting vehicles, and replacing it with a more demanding, immediate and urgent target? That would save people’s lives, particularly children’s lives.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, clearly there is an end target. As I have already set out, a lot of work is being done during that time, but much more needs to be done. The World Health Organization has complimented us on our clean air strategy, saying that it is an example to the rest of the world. I think that is a very good thing for our country.

Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand and share my noble friend’s wish for action. The truth is that we need to get this right in consultation and working with local authorities and industry. However, that does not stop a lot of progress being made before the primary and secondary legislation comes through. That is why I am very pleased that only recently Cornwall Council, for instance, announced that it will adopt a weekly separate collection of food waste and a weekly collection of segregated recyclable materials. Indeed, many supermarkets and retailers are engaging in this now. I agree—I want it done as soon as possible, but we need to get it right.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, should we not take a much harder line with manufacturers that produce plastics that cannot be recycled? The Government could start by producing an approved list of materials that are acceptable, which should then be underpinned by charges to those who continue to produce non-compliant products. The Government could do that immediately.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is why we have committed in our resources and waste strategy to reforming current packaging producer responsibility systems. The measures that we wish to bring forward will incentivise producers to make much more sustainable decisions at design stage and point of manufacture. This is consistent with the “polluter pays” principle. We want producers to be more responsible for the full costs of managing their packaging.

Brexit: Food Imports

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 7th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many additional food inspectors will be put in place to ensure that food imports from the European Union are checked at transit ports in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, there will be no additional controls on food and feed originating from the EU. However, non-EU high-risk food and feed consignments transiting the EU to the UK will be subject to controls, and will enter the UK at ports with the required facilities to undertake those controls. Following analysis to determine the possible number of such transits, there are sufficient inspectors at UK ports with those facilities to undertake all relevant import controls.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. He will know that the Department for Transport has agreed a number of new freight routes from the EU to smaller UK ports as part of the contingency planning. Meanwhile, the Government seem to be relying on existing staff in existing ports to carry out food inspections, despite the fact that they will not have access to the EU quality assurance documentation that they have had in the past. Is the Minister not concerned that some unscrupulous EU and third-country food exporters will exploit those new routes and offload their second-rate or even contaminated food when they know that they are unlikely to be checked? What guarantees can the Minister give to UK consumers that food imports will continue to be safe to eat in the event of no deal?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we have been working closely with the Food Standards Agency on all these matters. Careful consideration has been done with the APHA, the Food Standards Agency and HMRC precisely to ascertain whether the ports and their health authorities have the appropriate facilities to accommodate the 6,000 additional checks that we think would be required because of those transit goods, but—

Fisheries (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I take the noble and learned Lord’s important point seriously and, as one of the many things I learn from these debates, I will take it back. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, also mentioned the scrutiny of the committee and Annexe B.

I say to all your Lordships, and particularly to the noble Baronesses, that I understand the remarks about the extent of the legislative programme. I am most grateful for the way in which we are all seeking to deal with this responsibly. It is of course absolutely essential that there is proper scrutiny. I assure noble Lords that we have been working with business managers to ensure that the pace and flow of the statutory instruments is consistent with Parliament’s capacity to scrutinise them. Indeed, Defra has drafted all the SIs in accordance with our standard practice. The drafting has been done with the full co-operation of the devolved Administrations and has been fully legally checked. Furthermore, because the SI makes amendments to primary legislation, it was necessary for the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Advocate-General to check the drafting of those parts.

Clearly, as has been said—I may have alluded to it—the instrument was considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. No concerns about the regulations were raised. I value the ability to discuss, along with my officials, this or any other instrument with the noble Baronesses and any other Peers who are interested and wish to contact me before any debate. I very much hope that we will continue to do this. As I study the Explanatory Memorandum, I think it is important to highlight the contacts at the back: there is an official’s telephone number if any parliamentarian would like clarification.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to the reading room. This is an online platform that was developed based on stakeholders’ feedback to allow them to check the technical aspects of near-final SIs before they are laid in Parliament. It was designed with this specific audience in mind. I am always available to discuss these matters with any of your Lordships who wish to do so.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Before the Minister moves on from that point, I think he used the phrase, “pre-laid” or “nearly laid”—it was something along those lines. The stakeholders feel that there is not really time for them to say, “Look, you have got this wrong or those powers wrong” and for any redrafting to take place. It would be lovely if that were the case. We appreciate the concept of the reading room, but if it does not result in a proper listening exercise and the potential to make change, it is not achieving what it set out to do.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will certainly take that point back. Its whole purpose is to be constructive and helpful.

I also understand the noble Baroness’s points about the number of statutory instruments on fisheries that will be laid. I entirely understand the intellectual argument. Today’s instrument amends only domestic legislation. Defra has kept domestic primary and secondary legislation in this one SI and will use other SIs to amend directly applicable EU regulations. For instance, there will be one on wash-up—frankly, we could not have managed it—which amends EU regulations that have only just come into force; namely, those regulations emerging after the December Council. We will be laying that in late February.

The sister fisheries policy SI, as the noble Baroness described it, has been laid in draft. The SI and Explanatory Memorandum are available on legislation.gov.uk. We will have an opportunity to discuss that beforehand, but also in debate and future SIs.

The noble Baronesses are right. If we had had a perfect world, I am sure that all involved with fisheries could have had the opportunity for a debate on those SIs. As this one was ready, we felt—mindful of the numbers that are coming forward and as we were discussing technical and operable matters—that we could accomplish this today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to retained EU law: enforceable Community restrictions, EU restrictions and EU obligations. Some of this came up in the other place. My honourable friend the Minister of State is responding by letter, because it appears that this is a very technical matter which relates to the different ways that the Act can be read, depending on whether it extends to England, Wales and Scotland, or to Northern Ireland. I am assured that the statutory instrument is drafted correctly, but I will share a copy of this letter with all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate so that we are absolutely clear.

The responsibility for enforcement of fisheries in the UK will continue as it was before. This will be through the Marine Management Organisation for England and the equivalent bodies in the devolved Administrations. In England, marine enforcement officers will continue to enforce domestic fisheries legislation when the UK exits.

Much implementation and oversight will be the subject of new arrangements as proposed in the forthcoming Fisheries Bill—where we can discuss future arrangements but which is still in the other place—as well as the fisheries White Paper and the draft environment Bill, mindful of consistency with the devolution settlement. A lot of this will unfold in that discussion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, mentioned Article 42. This SI removes reference to Article 42 of Council Regulation 1224/2009 in the Sea Fishing (Enforcement) Regulations. Article 42, which prohibits transhipment in port, as the noble Baroness described, is deleted by the forthcoming sister SI to avoid a duplication in domestic legislation. This is because the authorisation for transhipment can already be given by way of a licence under Section 4A of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. Consequently, the reference to Article 42 in the present SI is no longer needed. I am sorry that that is technical, but that is what the lawyers advised me.

On the very important question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about references to the European Maritime Fisheries Fund, the Government have confirmed that all EMFF projects approved before the closure date of the current programme in December 2020 will be fully funded under a Treasury guarantee. This applies across the United Kingdom. The Secretary of State announced on 10 December 2018 that after the closure of the EMFF there will be four new funding schemes to replace the EMFF across the UK. The new funding commitment will be set in the 2019 spending review, alongside decisions on all other domestic spending priorities, and will be comparable to the current programme. The devolved Administrations will lead on their own programmes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked about the list of commercial designations of fish. My understanding is that the list is currently published on GOV.UK. To be clear, the list specifies how fish species should be labelled for consumer information and does not specify which species can or cannot be sold. The list can be updated when there is a business need or a request from the sector, and that practice will continue after we leave. Any revisions need to be agreed by the Secretary of State on the basis of expert advice with a sound scientific rationale. I hope that this will reassure the noble Baroness that this is not about the Klondike: it is based on a sound rationale, science, et cetera, as well as full consultation with the devolved Administrations.

I am most grateful to all noble Lords for helping me with this SI. We will return to matters of fish by way of statutory instruments and, at some point, the Fisheries Bill. On this occasion, I beg to move.

Invasive Non-native Species (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their considerable contributions on a subject that is enormously important. Picking up on what my noble friend Lord Ridley said, I emphasise that there are no policy changes; this is about the operability of this important secondary legislation. I also thank the noble Baronesses for their kind remarks: yes, I am ferociously exercised about this matter because I have seen at first-hand the damage to water courses, trees, flora and fauna that the arrival of these species has caused.

I say to my noble friend Lord Selborne that, yes, there are opportunities—as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, suggested—which often relate to the speed of implementing biosecurity measures. The Spruce beetle has been discovered in woodland in Kent, for instance; it is about how quickly we can act to eradicate an arrival. These are tremendously important issues.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that this is about operability. There is no statutory requirement to consult because it is literally a question of changing a reference to “member state” to “responsible authority”, for example. This was certainly done properly in Defra, with stakeholders that we thought would be interested. With enormous respect to the noble Lord, consulting extensively and formally on a matter of operability—we are maintaining operability so that the policies are incorporated in what we retain—rather than on the nature of these obviously essential issues is not only unnecessary but disproportionate. If this was a discussion about the formal nature, consultation would, I agree, be necessary, but this is precisely about operability. There was actually no statutory requirement to consult, but we thought it right to engage with stakeholders, who in fact had no comment to make. However, I am on notice that in any future exercises with Defra, I must be ready for limited, informal commentary. I assure your Lordships that we want to have an open discussion with stakeholders on this issue.

I turn to the many other issues that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones—

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I am sorry; I do not intervene often but this is important because it will have an impact on forthcoming SI debates. My understanding was that a process would be set up whereby, in advance of all the SIs, a group of interested NGOs and other stakeholders would be brought together so that they could not only make policy changes but iron out any concerns about omissions in the SIs, inappropriate transpositions or issues that been neglected.

The Minister has heard me say that Greener UK is still raising concerns about the legislation’s having missed out some of the requirements. The preambles were one issue, but there were also other concerns. He does not necessarily have to deal with all that now, but I am concerned that a process that was meant to iron things out does not seem to be working, given that we are being alerted at this late stage to the ongoing concerns of organisations such as Greener UK.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am very mindful of that and I do not want to be dismissive to any noble Lords about the importance of dialogue, consultation and so forth. However, I wanted to raise another point that came up, raised particularly by the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Parminter, about appropriate bodies, and to give a little more detail. There were many questions on which I may want to write in greater detail if there are points that I do not cover in full.

We are proposing that the programme board on non-native species takes over the role of the committee, while the GB non-native risk analysis panel will take on the role of the scientific forum. Both the programme board and NRAP are supported by the GB non-native species secretariat. The remit and membership of the existing GB bodies will need to be expanded to include Northern Ireland, as I mentioned. There is already a close working relationship between existing GB bodies and Northern Ireland. This statutory instrument places obligations on Ministers, who will ultimately have responsibility for taking decisions—for instance, to add a species to the list of species of special concern—and they are obliged to have a committee to support them and to have a scientific forum providing advice.

On the question of providing expertise, which the noble Baronesses rightly raised, I say that we in this country have significant expertise in invasive non-native species. In fact, I am very proud to say that it is acknowledged that we are considered one of the leaders in this respect. We have had a comprehensive framework for assessing the risk posed by these species since 2007 and that framework strongly influenced the EU’s approach, including its risk methodology, when the EU invasive alien species regulation came into force in 2015.

The analysis panel is chaired by Professor John Mumford of Imperial College, London. The panel’s members are highly respected in the UK’s scientific community, and include experts from Imperial College, Sheffield University, the Scottish Association for Marine Science, the Animal and Plant Health Agency and the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science. Through that body, we draw on expertise from scientists around the world as well as the UK.

On collaboration with the EU, I say to all noble Lords that this instrument is designed to make the matter operable but, going beyond that in terms of the requirements, of course we have obligations relating to invasive non-native species under many international agreements to which we are, as I know for myself, very active participants—for example, the Convention on Biological Diversity, the convention on wetlands of international importance, especially waterfowl habitats, the Ramsar Convention, the Convention on the Conservation of European Wildlife and Natural Habitats and the Berne convention. We are not going to remove ourselves into a silo.

As I said in my opening remarks, we have worked very closely with the devolved Administrations. I think the references within our own United Kingdom are absolutely right. That is clearly important, for all sorts of reasons that I have already described. Borders and boundaries are not respected when it comes to pest diseases and invasive diseases, so we will be working extremely hard and effectively on this. Scotland is not part of this exercise because it wants to bring forward its own SI under its own arrangements, but it is essential that we can all rely on these UK bodies to help us to come forward with the right mechanism. We are bringing back all the existing list. I do not see this as a diminution. As my noble friend Lord Selborne says, there may be opportunities which we need to think of, particularly in terms of not letting invasive species in. That is absolutely paramount. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to this in terms of border security, which is vital. We will be replacing TRACES because we want to bring forward our own arrangements, but biosecurity at the border is absolutely essential. I think the point that my honourable friend in the other place was referring to is that in our analysis of day-one readiness—the early days after our exit—goods that come in from the EU would be on the same risk basis. But I am absolutely clear that biosecurity is of vital importance for trade; the noble Baroness mentioned trade issues. This is why we are subject to international obligations as well.

Brexit: Agriculture

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Of course, that is precisely why there has been a border delivery group working across Whitehall since March 2017. It is working with the port and other transport operators to ensure, as a priority, that we have the materials we need, including medicines and so forth, but also a free flow of traffic. It was interesting that the manager of the Port of Calais referred to the fact that it is putting much more effort and many more people into ensuring this free flow of goods, which is of course at the back of why we want a deal.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand why it is a priority for the farmers’ unions that there should be a guarantee that future food imports in the UK will have the same animal welfare and environmental standards as those which currently apply? If he agrees with that priority, will he undertake to put forward an amendment to the Agriculture Bill to make that commitment a legal requirement?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, having declared my farming interests, of course I believe that it is important that farmers produce food of the highest standard for home and abroad, and that this should never be compromised. We will not water down our standards on animal welfare in pursuit of trade agreements, and that is precisely why we have transposed the EU Council directives on, for instance, hormone-treated beef and chlorine-washed chicken into the statute book. When we leave the EU, that will be the law.

Brexit: Healthy and Nutritious Food

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s long-standing interest in these matters. She referred to the healthy food scheme. It is a £142 million scheme, which includes Healthy Start, the nursery milk scheme and the school fruit and vegetable scheme. It is really important that young people and vulnerable people have healthy food at affordable prices. This is part of helping in that regard. I will take this matter up with colleagues in other departments responsible for the food schemes. I very much encourage eligible people to claim. Clearly, milk, fruit and vegetables are an important part of diet.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday, in evidence to the EFRA Committee, Michael Gove said that, in the event of no deal, it would be particularly difficult to guarantee perishable foods coming on to the market. That would be impeded and would be likely to drive up some prices. Is it not about time that the Government were completely honest with the British people and said that, in addition to all the other adverse impacts that it would have, a no-deal outcome could have serious implications for public health in terms of access to fresh food?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is of course why the Government think that a deal should be made and why we are urging that as the best way forward. However, it is clearly the responsibility of any Government to plan for all scenarios. Over the last two years, the border delivery group, chaired by the Permanent Secretary at HMRC and the Second Permanent Secretary at the Home Office, has been working extremely effectively, looking precisely at ways of ensuring a steady supply of produce. On the issue of nutritional and specialist foods, especially in terms of the health service, that has been given a particular priority so that vulnerable people are in a position to receive nutritional food.

Agricultural Subsidies

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, having declared my interests, I have considerable sympathy with my noble friend. That is precisely why we are working and will be working with farmers, land managers, environmental experts and other stakeholders so that we get this precisely right and it is not over-bureaucratic but environmentally outcome-focused, which is so important.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, agriculture is now the number one cause of water pollution and is responsible for the largest number of serious pollution incidents. Of course, most farmers act responsibly to prevent soil run-off, pesticides and slurry polluting watercourses. However, does the Minister accept that to deal with the worst offenders—those who do not act on a voluntary basis—there must be a credible threat of enforcement of the regulations, whether now or in the future? At the moment that is sadly lacking.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Certainly, the “polluter pays” principle is very current, and this is obviously why we are consulting on the environmental principles and governance issue. The draft legislation on that will be published before Christmas, along with consultation results. It is important that everyone, wherever they are, concentrates on reducing pollution. That is of course one of the great advantages of riparian buffer zones of a certain dimension, because you get an enhanced advantage from that.

Environment Plan

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 29th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their 25-year environment plan will be underpinned by legally binding targets.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, as announced in July, we will bring forward an ambitious environment Bill early in the second parliamentary Session, building on the vision of the 25-year environment plan. We are exploring possible wider legislative measures which could be included in that Bill. Furthermore, the Bill will establish a new independent statutory environment body to hold government to account on environmental standards. Draft legislation on environmental principles and governance will be published before Christmas.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. However, can he explain the difference between the draft indicator framework—a horribly technical term—which currently seems to be being developed, and which seems to be about monitoring the current status of the environment, and, on the other hand, legally enforceable targets? Those are the only way to guarantee improvements in areas such as air and water quality, soil health, biodiversity gain and resource efficiency, which the plan indeed promises. Is there any truth in the press reports that, once again, the Treasury is blocking Michael Gove’s attempts to make those targets legally binding?

Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) (England) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s explanation and echo the thanks of the noble Baroness to him for the courtesy of arranging a briefing on this SI in advance of today’s consideration. We, too, broadly welcome the proposals, which we believe will lead to greater water resilience in the UK. As we know, despite its reputation for rain, England is at increasing risk of water shortages. Extreme weather from climate change, coupled with an increasing population, especially in the drier southern and eastern areas, has put the water system under increasing pressure. We know that that will only rise over the coming decades.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours that extreme weather is not just about drought; it is also about flooding. We have debated time and again in the Chamber the terrible consequences for local communities—not just in Keswick, but in other areas—which are faced with the same infrastructure breakdown which allows flooding to take place over and over again. The Government need to address that key challenge. I agree that this may not be the right vehicle to do that, but we should not lose sight of the important challenge of addressing the sort of communities which he spoke so passionately about.

Thames Water warned, just last month, that in a little over 25 years a projected population growth of more than 2 million people will leave a shortfall of 250 million litres per day between the amount of water available and that used. We have to address the issue of water shortage nationally. This has not been helped by an ageing infrastructure and a lack of investment from water companies in the past. This means that change is necessary to create a modern infrastructure which can adapt to new demands, which we can already predict will add pressure to the system.

The Minister will be aware that several stakeholders argued during the consultation that demand management techniques should be exhausted before any new infrastructure is developed and that water transfers should be a last resort. We agree that that while reservoirs and dams can play a key role in stabilising water availability, it is imperative that we reduce demand and waste. One area where progress is urgently needed relates to the industry’s inability to get on top of leaks. The noble Lord will know that in June Thames Water was ordered to pay £120 million back to customers, having been found to have breached its licence conditions by allowing millions of litres of water to spew out of pipes through leaks. So we need urgent action to reduce water leaks, with meaningful targets for action by water companies year on year. Will the Minister update us on the agreements that have been reached with water companies to make this a reality? Will he also explain what action is being taken to change consumer behaviour around domestic water consumption? Breaking through this barrier is a real challenge, not least because consumers have a simplistic view of the water cycle and the ease by which turning on a tap can deliver water without any concern to the source of that water supply.

Any government proposals must make sure that the ways we build infrastructure and supply water in the future are sustainable for the environment and for local communities. According to a report published by WWF, nearly one-quarter of all rivers in England are at risk because of the vast amounts of water being removed for use by farms, businesses and homes. Some 14% of rivers were classed as overabstracted, meaning that water removed is causing river levels to drop below those required to sustain wildlife, while a further 9% were described as overlicensed, meaning that the river would fall to a similarly low level if permits to take water were utilised fully. This means that if permits to abstract water from rivers were fully utilised, levels of water would be unable to sustain wildlife and the necessary biodiversity that goes with it. What safeguards are in place to ensure that the increase in nationally significant projects does not lead to more overlicensed and overabstracted rivers? Will the Minister ensure that the national policy statement on water resources prioritises sustainability, not profits?

One of the key challenges of these proposals is the issue of local engagement. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, touched on this and my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours dwelt on it in some detail. In the proposals for large infrastructure projects there are indeed legitimate local concerns that need to be heard and addressed. I know that the Minister raised this in his introduction and set out the Government’s aspirations, but it would be helpful if he would clarify how he intends to use the powers the Government are taking to guarantee proper community consultation in the future, so that he can give more assurance to noble Lords in this regard.

The Minister will also know that the Chartered Institution of Water and Environmental Management has expressed concerns that the criterion for defining a nationally significant infrastructure project,

“does not consider any regional or supra-regional water resources issues”.

Will he ensure that the Environmental Agency and Ofwat recognise the importance of regional, multisector resource planning in delivering these changes, so that it is not just about local consultation involvement but also proper consultation at regional level?

Finally, while we welcome the introduction of desalination plants as a new category of NSIP, we share the view of many stakeholders that effluent reuse systems should also have been included. While these facilities are used only in times of projected or actual drought, it is likely that we will come to rely more on this type of water supply in the future, owing to the existential challenge of climate change and population increase. Can the Minister explain what more is being done to expand investment in this sector and encourage water recycling? Does he accept that not including effluent reuse as a new category of NSIP may deter investment in such plants?

In conclusion, we welcome the proposed amendments and support the Government’s stated twin-track approach to improving resilience by stabilising supply and reducing consumption. This will be achieved only as part of an ambitious, long-term plan for the environment, including new policies to manage our water resources, a plan to meet our climate change targets and a strategy to reduce domestic consumption—as well, of course, as dealing with the extreme water consequences we have been debating this evening. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I point out at the outset that although I am not as aware as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is about the flooding in his part of the world, as a Defra Minister, and beforehand, I absolutely understand and have seen the devastation and horror of flooding—indeed, the fatalities there have been—across the country. I am thinking particularly of the flooding experienced in one sense on the west side of the country, while on the eastern side there has so often been coastal flooding where the most terrible events have also happened.

I want to take away all that the noble Lord has said, and would be very happy to hear from any of the people who may have contacted him. I am not the Minister who has direct responsibility for flooding but in this House I take responsibility for all Defra matters, and I want to hear much more about the situation of residents there. I have friends in Cumbria who have suffered from the flooding, and I know that communities have been in a very difficult situation for many years. Perhaps I may spend some time outside of this discussion understanding more about the particular points that the noble Lord raised about Thirlmere and the issue of safeguards.

I know it was probably incorrect of me to intervene as I did, but I wanted to ensure that what we are trying to do here, through the Planning Act 2008, was on the record early on. I would of course want to hear in more detail whether there are issues with safety in reservoirs and the 1975 legislation, or issues arising therefrom, that we need to consider. This provision comes from the Planning Act 2008, and I suggest that it enables us to deal with the small number of what we believe to be nationally significant infrastructure projects for water. This is the route that that Act envisaged. We are seeking to add some detail to it and, as I say, include desalination plants.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to all noble Lords for their interest in the Bill and their contributions. Whatever else, we are all united in our desire to protect such a magnificent animal in the wild.

I bring it to your Lordships’ attention that I have placed in the Library of the House, with their permission, copies of letters received from my noble friends Lord De Mauley and Lord Carrington regarding Clause 7, “Pre-1947 items with low ivory content”, and my response to them. Specifically, these letters concern the definition of “integral” and the means of assessing the 10% de minimis threshold. In particular, the letters confirm that the ivory content of an item for the purpose of the de minimis exemption is to be determined as a percentage of the total volume of material in the item.

I am grateful for the positive engagement and support of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, on the Opposition Benches, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I also express my gratitude to the Constitution Committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Government responded positively to the recommendations made by these committees and I agree with the comment made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, on Report that this was,

“a very good model of how this House works”.—[Official Report, 24/10/18; col. 948.]

I am also grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for raising insurance transactions and for the subsequent discussions that led to the resolution of this matter on Report. I also place on record my gratitude for the contributions that my noble friend Lord Hague made during the passage of the Bill, and for the experience he brought of what is really happening in the worldwide threat to the elephant.

I take this opportunity to thank each of the devolved Administrations for their productive engagement and the support they have shown for the Bill. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady Vere and the hard-working Bill team, my private office and the clerks for their work and support.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Bill represents a significant step towards ending the illegal elephant-poaching crisis. It will enshrine in UK law the commitment made at the 2016 CITES convention to close down the domestic ivory markets that fuel illegal poaching. We believe that the exemptions permitted, carefully crafted in consultation with stakeholders, strike the balance between being robust and pragmatic. I welcome the Minister’s clarification that we can help by taking the value out of the market.

The Minister raised the question of items containing voids and the de minimis issue. While we agree very much with the advice that he has now given, there may be occasional cases where assessing the ivory content of an item is not straightforward. We believe that such items ought to be rare and can be picked up in the guidance that will follow.

Roundup

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

All this area is hugely important as a priority, both now and after we leave the European Union. Public safety will always be the prime consideration, and this would not be authorised if it was deemed to be unsafe.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to the precautionary principle, which as we know has been fundamental to EU regulation. Can the Minister confirm that when we leave the EU, we will apply the same precaution to risks to human health? In the event of a no-deal outcome, will a statutory watchdog be in place on day one to uphold environmental standards so that we can be reassured?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, obviously, whatever happens, the HSE and the UK expert committee on pesticides will be advising the Government. We are working with the HSE and other agencies to develop a new regulatory body. However, in the meantime, we have expert committees on which we rely and in which we place our trust.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords will not be surprised by this, but we are very much opposed to this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Hague, put the case much more strongly than I will, but I was disappointed by the position of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, on this. The very fact that his amendment focuses on exports goes to the heart of what the Bill is about. I am sorry that he has sought to start this debate in such a negative way. I hoped that we would have learned from our debates in Committee and that we had made the case in Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said, that we are trying to stop the illegal exports of illegal pieces. That is the heart of the problem.

The latest CITES statistics show that there has been a dramatic increase in the amount of both raw and worked ivory being exported from the EU: in 2014-15, the last two years for which data are available, the EU exported 1,258 tusks. That is what has happened according to the CITES information. Over and above that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said, there is the undercurrent of all the illegal trade of which nobody has any record. That is at the heart of this, and I am very sorry that we have started this debate looking at exports, which is the real problem that we have. I know we will go on to talk about other issues, but I regret this and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in other contributions that he might make, will do more to persuade us that he really understands the basis of the Bill. He said that he welcomed the Bill, but I think he has more of a responsibility to demonstrate how. I therefore urge noble Lords to oppose the amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment would allow commercial exports of ivory to be exempt from the ban. Given the rationale of the Bill, this amendment would be contrary to its purpose. We have heard from all sides, and we are all united behind the need to tackle the devastating decline in elephant populations, which is being driven by the global demand for ivory. While key demand markets are primarily in the Far East, the UK has, by introducing the Ivory Bill, acknowledged that its own legal ivory market is one of the largest in the world. By closing this market we want to ensure that the UK no longer plays a role in driving the global demand for ivory, including in the Far East.

Currently, the UK ivory market is linked to the Far East. As I mentioned in Committee, a 2016 report by TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network, shows that a shift has taken place over a number of years, with the UK legal market increasingly serving consumers in the Far East. UK Border Force officials have uncovered numerous antique ivory items being sent to Asian markets, often mislabelled as items other than ivory. Market surveys in the Far East have also shown that demand for ivory rarely distinguishes between legal and illegal ivory, with both found to be sold side by side. It cannot be denied that antique ivory from the UK is being exported to those markets, where it fuels the social acceptability of ivory and, in turn, perpetuates the demand.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hague for setting it out so clearly—indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said it much better than I possibly could—and I agree with every word he said. If we were to exclude exports from the UK’s ban, as proposed by this amendment, we would not only be allowing this link to continue but would also be condoning, internationally, the export of ivory items to demand markets. This would set back the actions already taken by other countries such as the United States and China by allowing new markets to grow in the Far East. It would also undermine the global movement to close markets and remove the value associated with ivory, which African elephant range states are calling upon us to do.

My noble friend Lord Hague referred to—as I will describe it—this global movement. The Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference was held earlier this month in London, where the UK Government launched the international Ivory Alliance, which will work to close domestic markets and reduce demand for ivory. It was a privilege to introduce a session at the conference—jointly chaired by my noble friend Lord Hague and Dr Zhou Zhihua of China, with a panel including the Assistant Deputy Secretary from the US Department of the Interior and the former New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark—which focused on the importance of closing domestic ivory markets.

The action the UK has taken by introducing this Bill is already helping to encourage other countries to take action. As my noble friend Lord Hague has said, both the Cambodian and Laotian Governments announced at the conference that they will be closing their domestic markets. This is an important step forward. Our work in the UK has also resulted in an Australian parliamentary committee recommending that Australia close its domestic market. The committee urged the Australian Government to follow the UK’s approach, which they described as an example of best practice.

Our actions are already having an impact and will continue to, if we make the right decisions. The current restrictions in place are not strong enough and there is an international movement, endorsed by a CITES resolution, to address the gap and in turn protect elephants. The UK must play its part, and it is for these reasons that the Government cannot support my noble friend’s amendment. As is customary at this stage, I therefore respectfully ask him to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will make sure that I get a precise note. The whole purpose of us saying that people can apply online and offline is precisely to cover the diversity of private individuals, as I mentioned. I will just check for my noble friend whether a form can be sent or whether it has to be downloaded.

The answer, apparently, is that there will be a range of opportunities for people to receive forms—online or not. I am told that a hard copy application can be requested by telephone. I think that covers, in one way or another, most people in this country.

The committee also recommended that Clause 5 should include more details about the appeals regime, rather than leaving it to secondary legislation. Amendments 17 to 21 deliver the committee’s recommendation. First, the amendments set out in the Bill that the First-tier Tribunal will hear any appeals against a decision by the Secretary of State not to issue an exemption certificate or to revoke an existing certificate. As many of your Lordships will know, the First-tier Tribunal has wide experience of hearing appeals concerning regulatory matters and, indeed, is the body to hear appeals against decisions to serve civil sanctions in Schedule 1 to the Bill. The amendments also set out in the Bill the grounds on which an appeal may be made and the powers of the tribunal on hearing an appeal. The only matters that will be left to secondary legislation will be any further grounds that the Secretary of State may wish to add and the cost of an application for an appeal to the tribunal. I acknowledge once again the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I support these amendments. We are very pleased that the Government have listened to the Delegated Powers Committee and have addressed its concerns about too much detail being contained in guidance. We will return to this issue when we debate our Amendment 40, which seeks to establish regulations about how those dealing in ivory can verify the exempted status of the piece being bought or sold.

We also welcome government Amendments 17, 18 and 21, which considerably tighten up the basis on which appeals on exempted certificates can be made. We raised this issue in Committee and are very pleased that the Government listened to those arguments and have produced specific grounds for appeal that cannot be used to undermine the clarity of the decision-making process. We therefore support these amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, Amendment 40 concerns verification regulations. As we debated in Committee, it is imperative that the exemption processes introduced in this Bill are robust and proportionate. In Committee, we introduced a probing amendment that would allow the Secretary of State to create a verification system to enable buyers to ensure that they were complying with the law. We felt that this was particularly important, given that the definition of “dealing” in Clause 1 specifically includes buying as well as selling ivory. Even the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, with whom we on these Benches have found little common ground with regard to this Bill, concurred that it was a most sensible suggestion.

In response, the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, agreed that a potential buyer must be able to verify that it is legal to purchase the item before finalising the sale. She outlined how a buyer wishing to check the legality of buying or hiring an item would be able to confirm that it had been registered or certified as exempt and look it up on the online system via the item’s reference number. This would enable them to compare the photos and description on the system with the object they intended to purchase. This was a welcome commitment from the Government. I was disappointed, however, by the noble Baroness’s insistence that we do not need regulations to underpin such a system.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report raised concerns about the scope of regulation-making powers contained in the Bill, concluding that the delegation of powers was inappropriate in many areas. We agreed with this view and feel strongly that it would be inappropriate for the purpose of establishing a verification system too. The verification process described by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, must be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and should be set out in regulations. We feel that this is very important, given the legal implications for breaking the prohibition on dealing, as well as issues involving privacy and the protection of personal data. Indeed, it was for this reason that the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, advised that the Government would be unable to publish photos or descriptions of specific items exempted. We need to be much clearer about the verification processes that would underpin the Bill and the protections that would be afforded to the buyers, particularly when they are making online purchases, when fake sales particulars are all too often a hazard.

Having reflected on the Minister’s earlier response, we also believe that the negative procedure offers an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny for the verification of exempt items. Therefore, we hope that noble Lords will support this amendment, which would insert regulations, but to be approved only through the negative procedure. I beg to move.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this proposed new clause would provide the Secretary of State with a new delegated power to make regulations and publish guidance to enable a potential buyer of an ivory item to check its exemption status prior to purchase. I reassure the noble Baroness that the Government will ensure that compliance, by both sellers and purchasers of ivory items, is fully facilitated. The Secretary of State will issue non-statutory guidance, which will set out the detail of each exemption and the requirements for self-registration or certification of exempted items. The guidance will also contain clear advice, for both buyers and sellers, on compliance, including the process by which a potential buyer will be able to check a registration or certification before purchasing an item. I also make the point that verification is in the Bill. We will provide administrative guidance to assist both the buyer and the seller.

I note that the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness would create an additional delegated power for the Secretary of State, by allowing him to specify how many items should be verified. Furthermore, to lay regulations to specify this would be a duplication of the relevant provisions already in the Bill.

Before I set out for your Lordships precisely how the registration system will work, which is important, and thus the measures in place to enable verification, I also note that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House has considered the Bill in detail and made a number of recommendations to reduce the number of delegated powers, which, as we heard on earlier amendments, the Government have addressed.

Ultimately, it will always be in the seller’s interest to ensure that the exemption certificate or registration document is available at the point of sale. It would be appropriate for an antique dealer or auction house to display the certificate or registration details alongside the item or show it to customers at the point of sale. For online sales, we would similarly anticipate that a seller would show proof that the item has been registered or an exemption certificate issued.

We are currently working on the design and build of a new online system to enable owners of exempt items to register them prior to sale or hire. A potential buyer wishing to check the registration of an item will be able to look up that item on the online system, using the unique registration number provided on the seller’s registration document. The buyer will be able to view the information concerning that item held on the database to satisfy themselves that it indeed relates to the item in question. This will allow buyers the comfort that the seller has complied with the process and to verify the registration document.

For items with an exemption certificate under Clause 2 of the Bill—that is, the rarest and most important items of their type—we would in practice expect the seller to make the exemption certificate available to the potential buyer. Similarly, the potential buyer will also be able to consult the online database using the unique identification number on that exemption certificate.

That is why we do not need a power in the Bill to provide the means for buyers to verify that they can legally buy a certified or registered ivory item: as I have explained, it is our intention that this will be achieved through the functionality of the online registration system. This provides a clear means for the buyer to verify the legitimacy of their intended purchase. Furthermore, the Government will publish non-statutory guidance, which will set out exactly how sellers should provide buyers with the assurance that they are entitled to sell an item and that the transaction will therefore be lawful.

Before the Bill is commenced, we will run an awareness-raising campaign to ensure that relevant stakeholders and members of the public are fully aware of the new legislation and associated guidance. As such, we believe it would be unnecessary to include additional powers in the Bill to enable a potential buyer of an ivory item to check on the exemption status of an ivory item. As I have explained, this is precisely why perfecting the online registration system is so important and why work is under way on that.

I believe that the Government have covered the points that the noble Baroness seeks to address, given the explanation and a bit more detail. As the online system is developed, I am happy to ensure, for any noble Lords interested in these matters, a continuum of assurance that this work is well in hand. On that basis, I say to the noble Baroness that these points are covered. I sincerely hope she feels able to withdraw her amendment, because the Government have covered this point.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am moving Amendment 104, which deals with the Government’s obligations in the international CITES resolution. We debated this issue in Committee and it remains a concern to a number of the wildlife and elephant charities. This amendment would insert a preamble linking the Bill to the resolution adopted unanimously by Governments at the 2016 conference of parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora—CITES. This calls on all Governments to close domestic ivory markets, which contribute to the poaching of and illegal trade in ivory.

As we explained in Committee, the government amendments introduced on Report in another place, while welcome, had the accidental consequence of removing the explicit link between the Bill and CITES. There is now nothing in the Bill to make it clear that this legislation was drafted partly in response to the resolution adopted unanimously by Governments at the 2016 conference of parties to CITES.

We raised this concern in Committee, where the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, reaffirmed the importance and relevance of CITES. However, he argued that an explicit link in the preamble was unnecessary, given that the aforementioned government amendment made it possible to go further than CITES and broaden the scope of the Bill to all ivory species.

While we welcome this provision, we nevertheless believe that such a preamble would strengthen the Act against possible judicial and European Court of Human Rights challenges by confirming that the legislation enables the UK to comply with international obligations to control domestic ivory markets under a UN-backed treaty. Moreover, as the Minister himself noted:

“No other provision in the Bill could be limited by a reference to CITES”.—[Official Report, 12/9/18; col. 2353.]


We therefore do not accept that the reference to CITES is as limiting as the Minister would have us believe. Indeed, there are precedents for this, notably in the original legislation to implement CITES in the UK under the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976. This Act also covered thousands of non-CITES species.

We believe that this amendment, contrary to what the Minister has argued, would have the effect of strengthening rather than weakening the Bill. I beg to move this amendment and hope that noble Lords will support it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s amendment would insert a preamble to the Bill to reference the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, or CITES, and the important resolution agreed at the CITES COP 17 regarding closing elephant ivory markets.

In Committee, I assured the noble Baroness that the removal of a link to CITES in the Bill was not an unintended consequence. It was as a direct result of the amendment made in the other place to enable the Secretary of State to broaden the scope of the Bill in the future to all ivory-bearing species, rather than only those listed under CITES. We are confident that there is no need for a reference to CITES in the Bill, and we do not believe that it would provide additional protection to the Bill, for example against legal challenge.

In Committee, I reassured your Lordships that, as a very active party to CITES, the UK will continue to be bound by and committed to its obligations under this important convention. The UK ivory ban is consistent with our obligations under both CITES and the EU wildlife trade regulations, and therefore neither need to be cited in the Bill. It is also the case that the ban goes much further than both CITES and the EU wildlife trade regulations in restricting the commercial dealing in ivory.

For example, amending Clause 35 to remove reference to CITES species and include reference to all ivory-bearing species means that all ivory-bearing species—not only CITES species—can be added to the scope of the Bill in the future if the outcome of an information-gathering exercise, such as a consultation, supports this. Therefore, the UK has gone further than outlined in the CITES resolution on elephant ivory. While I appreciate the noble Baroness’s intention to provide protection to the Bill, again I must say that we do not believe the preamble is required.

I want to make one other practical point following advice I have received. The noble Baroness referred to a preamble from much earlier legislation. It is now the case that primary legislation uses the long title to specify a Bill’s objectives, instead of a preamble.

I well understand all the connections with CITES and the EU trade regulations, but this Bill goes further. Therefore, we cannot support the noble Baroness’s amendment, for the reasons I have outlined, and I ask her to withdraw it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. We accept that the Bill has gone further than the original CITES treaty. Our objective in putting the CITES reference in the preamble was to firm up the Government’s justification, if you like, for having the Bill in the first place. We have been debating this for several days now and we are still trying to justify why we have to do it, and this is part of the continuing justification.

Given that there is still some unhappiness out there—if not indeed in your Lordships’ Chamber—our intention with what has been proposed in the Ivory Bill was to give it some legal extra bottom, if you like, in terms of why we are doing it by referring to a UN-backed treaty. Nevertheless, I accept that the Minister is saying that this was not an unintended consequence but was in fact deliberate. Time will tell whether it would have helped to have our reference in the preamble, because only in time will we know whether there are legal challenges to this.

However, given the lateness of the hour, we do not intend to move to a vote. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Brexit: Food Security

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 23rd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is why £95 billion a year is spent on working-age welfare benefits, for instance. It is absolutely essential that we have good food standards—that is, healthy and affordable food. I agree that it is important that the Government keep these matters under review, which is why part of the assessment covers the very points drawn out by the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK sources 30% of its food from the EU and a further 11% from deals negotiated by the EU. Does the Minister accept that whatever the outcome of negotiations, the UK will be obliged to conduct more border checks on food supplies than is currently the case? Can he say with confidence that sufficient border staff, vets and food safety inspectors have been recruited to ensure that there are no delays and therefore no further food shortages as a result of a no-deal Brexit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there will not be food shortages because of Brexit. Our food industry in this country is very sophisticated, with plenty of experience and mechanisms around the world to source foods. I am surprised by the noble Baroness’s question. In truth, that is why we have, and are recorded to have, this resilience in food supply. We will not have food shortages. We already produce a very large amount of food; the rest of our food will come from sources around the world.

Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 9th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that our ambition is to handle much more of our waste. We will set out proposals in precisely that area in our resources and waste strategy. Of course, across the European Union we and all other member states are working on the circular economy package. The aim is to have a 65% recycling rate by 2035. We in this country are ambitious and wish to meet or exceed those environmental benefits.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not time that the Government introduced a national system for recycling? There is a huge problem with recycling bins being contaminated with items that are not appropriate to be recycled. A recent BBC report found that 97% of rejected recycling that had got mixed up was then sent to landfill. We know that part of the problem is that people do not understand what is appropriate to be put in the bins in their area. Surely the time has come to have a national scheme for this. It happens in other countries; if they manage to do it, why are the Government so slow to act on this? We have debated this issue time and time again. The solution seems clear and the Government just need to act.

Food Labelling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 9th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating that response and echo him in sending our deepest condolences to the friends and family of Natasha Ednan-Laperouse and Celia Marsh, who both died tragically following fatal allergic reactions.

In Natasha’s case, she had been reassured that the baguette she had purchased was safe for her to eat by the lack of specific allergen information on the packaging. Unbeknown to her, it contained sesame, to which she was allergic. Celia Marsh died after consuming food labelled as dairy-free which was found to contain dairy protein.

As these cases demonstrate, it is imperative that food labelling is both accurate and complete. At present, however, UK food regulations relating to allergen information appear to be seriously lacking, resulting in entirely avoidable deaths. It is clear that we need urgent change to the current legislation.

As the Minister explained, under the current rules, foods packaged on-site before sale do not require a specific allergen label attached. Natasha’s parents have been campaigning to change food labelling laws, which they describe as having played “Russian roulette” with their daughter’s life. Will the Minister commit to amending the regulations to require all produce to be individually labelled with allergen and ingredient information, and will he ensure that such information is meaningful? It is not enough to have a default warning placed on all products, such as the unhelpful “may contain nuts” warning, which appears to be more about protecting businesses from liability than assisting the consumer to make an informed assessment of whether an item is safe for them to consume. This is a public health issue which should have the protection of the welfare and lives of allergy sufferers at its heart.

Finally, I should also be grateful if the Minister could clarify the responsibility of suppliers involved in the manufacture and preparation of food in relation to allergy labelling. Celia Marsh died after consuming guaranteed dairy-free flatbread at Pret A Manger. Although the inquest has not yet been held, I am aware that CoYo, which manufactures the dairy-free coconut yoghurt used in the flatbread prepared by Pret, disputes that its produce was contaminated.

There is a danger of blame being passed up and down the line here, which raises important questions about checks in the supply chain. Can the Minister make clear who is ultimately responsible for the content and accuracy of labelling in such cases, where a number of suppliers and subcontractors are involved? I look forward to his response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I echo a great deal of what the noble Baroness said. The urgency of this is imperative. The Secretary of State has been in touch with Natasha’s parents. Obviously, we want to ensure that what happened to Natasha, and her parents, wider family and loved ones, does not happen again. That is why the review will be urgent. We will be working closely with the Food Standards Agency and the Department for Health and Social Care and, as I said in the Statement, we will be communicating with the devolved Administrations tomorrow. We will look at the coroner’s report in Natasha’s case, which was received this morning. I should say that in the case of Celia Marsh, as the noble Baroness alluded to, not only is the coroner’s investigation in process but there is a legal dispute between Pret A Manger and CoYo. In those circumstances, I should not want to go any further on that case.

I assure your Lordships that, whether it is suppliers or retailers, the importance of this, as the noble Baroness outlined, is that it is a public health matter. People in this country, particularly those with allergies, should have the right information to know whether something is safe for them to eat. The FSA has campaigned on this over a considerable period. It is not only about raising awareness and issuing guidance for businesses but raising awareness among people with allergies that they must ask—because, as I said, the requirement is that all shops should be in a position to advise the consumer by signs and verbally. I assure your Lordships that we shall look at this with rigour and urgency.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment would mean that persons could not use a defence that they did not know or suspect, or ought to know or suspect, the item was ivory. I should therefore explain why this provision was included and how it would be applied.

This provision has been included to help tackle the problem of illegal ivory items being deliberately mislabelled as another substance, such as bovine bone. It is also to protect those who fall victim of mislabelling of ivory and who, and I underline this, genuinely did not know that the item they were buying contained ivory. The purpose of the Bill is not to penalise or criminalise unnecessarily people who have made a genuine mistake. This provision also allows the police, enforcement bodies and courts to use their professional discretion when considering the most appropriate approach to deploy for individual defendants.

The issue of labelling ivory as another substance when it is sold is a common one. Illegal ivory items are often deliberately mislabelled as another substance, such as bovine bone, in order to evade existing restrictions on ivory sales. For this reason, the Bill ensures it is an offence to deal in ivory where that person knew or suspected, or ought to have known or suspected, that it was ivory. In practice, this means that, where it is clear that a person is deliberately mislabelling ivory as some other substance in order to attempt to circumvent this ban, this will be an offence. Likewise, anyone buying items of mislabelled ivory who could reasonably be expected to know it is elephant ivory will also be liable.

The enforcement bodies and courts will consider the position of the person when taking a view as to whether they should have known or suspected the item was ivory; for instance, if the person is an antiques dealer or a member of the public. They may also, for example, take into account if it is a repeat offence or if the seller deliberately mislabelled the item and then provided other information to indicate more discreetly to potential buyers that the item was in fact ivory. For example, sellers have been known to include close-up photographs in order to show the tell-tale lines or crosshatching, which are characteristic of ivory.

I will need to reflect on what on my noble friend Lord De Mauley said, but the Bill at this moment relates to elephant ivory. We will come on to further amendments that relate to the ability of this legislation potentially to extend to other species. For the moment, the Bill is dealing with elephant ivory.

Clause 12(2) is phrased to capture some instances of genuine mislabelling, where there was no intention to breach the ban and where the person could not reasonably be expected to know the item was ivory. This element of the Bill is designed to protect such people, who may be buyers, sellers or those facilitating a sale or purchase and whose prosecution I think your Lordships would accept is not what we are seeking in this legislation. I hope for those reasons the noble Baroness is able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I think that we want to achieve the same thing here. It is a question of whether the existing wording achieves what the Minister has outlined. We do not want to penalise or take to court any innocent person who is trapped in this way. That is not our intention and clearly it is not the Government’s intention. However, I do not know how you can prove that someone genuinely did not know that something had ivory in it. I have a feeling that we are trying to prove a negative here, which in terms of enforcement will be quite difficult.

Therefore, we are in the game of asking how you prove that somebody ought to know and how you prove that somebody could not possibly have known. It is quite unusual to have a get-out clause in a Bill that says, “If you didn’t know about it, we’ll let you off”. With most legislation—it might be banning smoking in cars—it is not normally a defence to say, “I didn’t know”. Equally, I find it odd that the Bill is introducing a situation where someone can say, “I didn’t know, so maybe I should be let off on this occasion”.

I think that we want to achieve the same thing; I just do not feel that the wording here delivers what the Minister is trying to get at, and I would like to reflect a little more on his response. I hope that, in return, he will listen to what I am saying because, as I said, I am not sure that this wording delivers his exact intent. Maybe there is another way through this but, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, we very much welcome the interventions by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, members of the Constitution Committee and other noble Lords who have raised concerns about the status and powers of accredited civilian officers. The noble and learned Lord has done a fantastic demolition job on the provisions in the existing clause. I also welcome his overall support for the objectives of the Bill, which are indeed very welcome.

While we have argued throughout that there need to be robust enforcement mechanisms in the Bill, we equally accept that the creation of a new breed of civilian enforcers, with the widespread powers envisaged in the Bill, goes far too far. We would have hoped that providing extra resources for the National Wildlife Crime Unit would provide a more acceptable alternative to the challenge of effective enforcement.

I do not intend to say a great deal because I know that the Minister is keen to find a way to resolve these concerns. I hope that he is able to reassure us that the Government will be tabling their own amendments to bring enforcement back in line with the practice of legal enforcement using comparative situations. I therefore look forward to hearing his response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to the Constitution Committee for publishing its valuable report, which raised some important points regarding the powers conferred by the Bill on accredited civilian officers. I place on record that I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for meeting me and officials so that we could discuss and, in turn, reflect on the concerns that he and the committee expressed. I am also mindful of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack.

The issue of enforcement is critical and I am sure that the Committee would agree that it is paramount that the enforcement of the ivory ban must be both proportionate and robust. As noble Lords will be aware, when I refer to accredited civilian officers, I am referring to the officers of the regulator, which will be the Office for Product Safety and Standards. OPSS is part of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It is an experienced enforcement body that currently enforces a range of regulations on behalf of the Government, including regulations on timber, biodiversity, waste and chemicals, and carbon reduction. For example, OPSS ensures that timber traders are complying with the regulations to ensure that their products are made from legally sourced timber.

OPSS also has experience of co-working with the police, the National Wildlife Crime Unit and Border Force, which will also play a critical role in the enforcement of the ivory ban so that we make sure that the enforcement is effective and that all parties are clear on their role and remit. For all those reasons it was considered to be the most appropriate regulator.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, this amendment would insert a preamble linking the Bill to the resolution adopted unanimously by Governments at the 2016 Conference of the Parties to the UN Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, or CITES. This called on all Governments to close domestic ivory markets which contribute to the poaching of, or illegal trade in, ivory.

Unfortunately, the government amendment introduced on Report in another place had the accidental consequence of removing the only explicit link between this Bill and CITES. There is now nothing in the Bill to make it clear that this legislation was drafted partly in response to the resolution adopted unanimously at the 2016 Conference of the Parties to CITES.

An amendment of this type was specifically requested by the David Shepherd Wildlife Foundation and the Born Free Foundation, which shared our concern that the link to the conference commitment had been deleted. We believe that such a preamble would strengthen the Act against possible judicial and equalities challenges by confirming that the legislation enables the UK to comply with international obligations to control domestic ivory markets under a UN-backed treaty. There are already precedents for this, notably in the original legislation to implement CITES in the UK—the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976—so this amendment would protect the Government’s resolve to comply with international treaties and strengthen their legal defence. I hope that noble Lords and the Minister will see the sense of the amendment and feel able to support it. I beg to move.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s amendment would insert a preamble at the beginning of the Bill to draw a link between the provisions in the Bill and the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.

The United Kingdom is a party to CITES in its own right and will continue to be bound by and committed to its obligations under this important convention. Indeed, the UK is a very active participant in CITES. At the last CITES Conference of the Parties in 2016, the UK played a major role in achieving strong outcomes for endangered species, which will help ensure their survival in the wild. The UK ivory ban is consistent with both CITES and the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations. Under the withdrawal Act, these regulations will become part of UK domestic law. The UK ivory ban goes further than CITES and the EU in restricting commercial dealing in ivory.

Clause 35, which deals with the definition of ivory, previously referred to CITES for a specific reason—in order to limit the future application of the Bill to CITES-listed ivory-bearing species. As I alluded to in the previous group, the amendment made in the other place made it possible to broaden the scope of the Bill in the future to all ivory-bearing species, thus removing the need for a reference to CITES. No other provision in the Bill could be limited by a reference to CITES.

The Ivory Bill will apply alongside our existing obligations under CITES and the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations, and therefore there is no need to reference CITES or indeed the regulations in the Bill. As is customary, the Long Title of the Bill outlines the matters covered by it. As I said, we are acknowledged as one of the strongest participants in CITES but, given the amendment introduced in the other place, we do not think that CITES requires to be cited in this Bill. For the reasons I have set out, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. The purpose of the amendment was to strengthen our hand in the Bill so as to avoid legal challenges that might otherwise have been made. In seeking to insert this preamble, I do not think that it was ever our intention to restrict what the Bill could achieve in terms of broadening out beyond CITES-specified endangered species. Nevertheless, I hear what the Minister says. I will again reflect on his views and his response, and I will take some soundings from those who have encouraged us to put forward this amendment. However, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 10 in this group. I rather resent the implication that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and I do not understand the significance of beautiful works of art. That is clearly not the case. The debate that we are having is about—and we are repeating this time and again—how we can stop the illegal poaching of elephants to create, if you like, imitations of beautiful works of art.

We take a very different view from other noble Lords who have spoken to amendments in this group who have in some way wanted to water down the application of the Bill. We believe that the current definition of,

“outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical value”,

is too subjective and too widely framed and therefore too difficult to apply with any certainty. We therefore believe that we should set the bar higher and make the definition clearer. These categories were all debated during the consultation and were framed by examining global best practice in this sector in terms of how you apply and enforce these definitions. They are designed to cover items that, when sold, do not directly or indirectly fuel the poaching of elephants, so we are back to that issue again.

We are concerned that the test has been toned down, given that there was an earlier form of wording. The earlier wording talked about the “rarest and most important” pieces, which appears to have been changed to a consideration of an item’s rarity and the extent to which it appears to be an important example of its type. Our concern is that that is difficult phraseology to apply with any certainty.

It is important that we get this wording right. If we do not, there may be other consequences that do not help what we are trying to achieve. We know that the sale of items that seem to be important and the best of their type is fuelling the market in Asia by making some items more desirable. Those who cannot afford the items classified as best of their type go out and try to find imitations, which is where we come back full circle to the reason for the Bill and the need to ensure that whatever we do does not carry on fuelling the demand for newly poached ivory. Despite what noble Lords have said, there is a link between antique and modern ivory and, therefore, a need to close that market. As I have said, the exemptions in the Bill have to be rigorously defined and enforced.

Although I shall not go to the wall on this, I would expect religious items to be covered by the current definitions. I am not convinced that we need a separate category; I would have thought that the cultural definitions covered that.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said that he was worried about local and regional significance not being taken into account. Again, I think that the professionals assessing whether items meet the grade for an exemption certificate would be expected to take account of those local variations rather than just assuming that everything has a value only in the London markets.

Noble Lords are right that whatever we do in the UK is only part of tackling the problem. In many ways, we are only the middle people in an international trade that is passing through our country. That is why the Secretary of State is right in wanting to use the forthcoming international wildlife crimes conference as a means for the UK to put pressure on other countries. There is no point in us trying to do it in isolation; we have to make sure that other countries follow suit, as a number already have. This legislation is only part of the jigsaw, but we have to play our part in all this. To do that, we have to get rigorous, enforced definitions right. I am not sure that we have got them right at the moment and worry that there is too much room for subjectivity, but I am sure that the Minister will reassure me and others that the current definitions hold up.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friends’ amendments would widen the scope of Clause 2 to allow more items to fall under this category of exemption, while the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, strives to tighten it. As noble Lords will know from Second Reading, the Government came forward with the current set of exemptions in discussion with the antiques and museum sector.

The Bill’s intention is to prohibit commercial activities concerning ivory in the UK and the import and re-export of ivory for commercial purposes. My noble friend Lady Rawlings and other noble friends mentioned the UK’s market. Between 2005 and 2014, 31% of ivory exported from the EU for commercial purposes was from the UK; the number of worked ivory items exported to mainland China increased from 2,000 to 11,000 between 2010 and 2014, and the UK Border Force recorded 602 seizures of illegal ivory items moving into and out of the UK in the four years between 2013 and 2017.

This is the scenario in which we exist and why what we have had before is simply not good enough. I emphasise that we intend this to be one of the toughest bans in the world. We are clear as a Government that this is the right thing to do in terms of leadership. We also recognise—I feel that my noble friends in particular as owners of ivory see this differently from me—that the public interest of saving the elephant has the supremacy on these matters. However, we have sought as a responsible and reasonable Government to ensure exemptions that we think are proportionate. That is why the limited and targeted exemption from the prohibition on dealing for pre-1918 ivory items which are of outstanding,

“artistic, cultural, or historical value”,

have a rarity value and are important examples of their type is legitimate.

As has been said before, it is not the Government’s intention to affect our artistic and cultural heritage unduly. This exemption recognises that a certain stratum of ivory items are traded not because they are made of ivory, but due to their artistry or rarity. I assure both my noble friends and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that the Government have worked extensively with conservation NGOs and the arts and antiques sector to shape this exemption. We believe that the clause, as it stands, is a proportionate approach and any change would undermine this carefully balanced position. Indeed, the chairman of the Society of Fine Art Auctioneers welcomed the distinction our proposals make,

“between the market for ivory as a substance … and the market for works of art whose significance lies in their status as works of art, not for what they are made of”.

The criteria which must be met for an item to qualify under this exemption are intentionally narrow and will be detailed in statutory guidance. My noble friends Lord De Mauley, Lord Cormack and Lord Inglewood referred to religious significance being a key factor for consideration when determining whether to issue an exemption certificate. We consider religious significance to be a factor of both cultural and historic significance—a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, made—so we do not believe that it is necessary to reference it separately in the Bill.

On the rationale behind the 100 years backstop, this date has been chosen as it is in line with the commonly agreed definition of “antique” as being items that are 100 years old. It represents 100 years before the Bill was introduced. The amendment from my noble friend Lord De Mauley seeks to widen this exemption to items,

“suitable ... to the collection of a qualifying museum”.

We believe that this is too broad a definition to be included as part of what is intended to be a clearly defined exemption. It is worth noting that any accredited museum may purchase an item of ivory whether or not it meets one of the categories of exemption under Clause 9. This ensures that the decision to purchase rests with the relevant experts at accredited museums.

I repeat that the rationale behind this Bill is the need to curtail the demand for ivory that is driving the disastrous poaching of elephants in increasing numbers. I noted in my Second Reading speech and, indeed, today, that this demand is fuelled by both the illicit and the licit trade. This is what the African leaders are asking to do. It is what is coming out of the UN report. It is not a Minister just saying it. People in Africa and the UN are saying to us: “Please will you bear down on your licit trade because it is part of the problem”.

I am sorry to disappoint my noble friends, but I am sure they will understand that this is designed as a narrowly drawn exemption. I am not in a position to accept the amendments and I emphasise that a great deal of attention has been paid to what are tightly defined packages of exemptions, of which this is one. I believe that the Government have produced something that is proportionate and on those grounds I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s amendment recognises an important issue: to ensure that we avoid any loopholes that could be exploited by those wishing to circumvent the ivory ban and continue to trade ivory illegally. I understand the concern that an individual may exploit the provision included in the Bill to issue replacement exemption certificates under the exemption for the rarest and most important example of its type. The concern is that an individual might fraudulently use replacement exemption certificates for non-exempt items, and I am clearly interested in ensuring that that is not possible. But I say to the noble Baroness and my noble friend Lord De Mauley that such an action would be an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 and may be subject to criminal sanctions—a custodial sentence or a criminal fine.

The Bill is clear that a replacement certificate will be issued only if the original has been lost, the original was not passed on by the original owner when the item was sold, or for any other reason that the Animal and Plant Health Agency acting on behalf of the Secretary of State considers appropriate. I reassure the noble Baroness that the process that an individual must follow to request a replacement certificate will be carefully developed with APHA to avoid any potential loopholes that could be exploited by unscrupulous individuals.

First, the owner will need to declare why a replacement is required. APHA should also be able to check the application against a database of exempt items. Secondly, a unique identification number will be included on the certificate which associates it with the exempt item. Certificates will include photographs of the item as originally submitted when applying for the exemption and a narrative description of the item. Given the nature of items exempted under this category, it is highly unlikely that there would be another item of such close similarity that it could reasonably be taken to be covered by a certificate issued for another item. Officials will be working with APHA because this is an area that we are clear on. We do not want to find any loopholes in what we do. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising this issue, but we are very much alive to the need to ensure that the replacement certificate regime is robust and, at the same time, that replacements can be issued.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, for those comments. I am grateful for the Minister’s reassurance. The situation that we envisaged is that there would be more than one certificate and more than one item that looked similar in the market. There would then be the problem of identifying which was the original and which was the fake. As we develop our exemption certificate regime, I can imagine that they will have some kudos abroad. They will not just be used for enforcement under our regime but could give some additional value to properties that are traded in other countries as proof of the item being of the highest quality and so forth. I would like to look a little more at the Minister’s comments, but I will not pursue this any further today so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is trying to achieve but, with the best will in the world, I am not sure that it is practical. If an item is important enough to be passed down through inheritance to another family member, it is also important that the new owner has an up-to-date registration certificate for it.

The Bill requires that if there is a change of owner a fresh application should be made to register the item. This is important because it will ensure that the registration system has an up-to-date record of the name of the owner and their contact details and so on. Without this change of ownership recorded on the register, we are concerned that confusion might arise as to who has the legal obligations of ownership spelled out elsewhere in the Bill. If an item appears on the market or if it is suspected of being a forgery, the enforcement officers will not know whom to contact to clarify the position.

I am trying to give the noble Lord something to be cheerful about but I do not think that this is the way to go about it. I do not think an automatic transfer of an item and the registration certificate would work without the associated paper trail to show the current ownership.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the intention behind my noble friend’s amendment is to provide that a person who inherits a registered ivory item from a family member would not need to reregister it under Clause 10, regardless of whether he or she intends to deal in the item themselves. Clause 11(2) places duties on a registered owner to notify the Secretary of State when he or she becomes aware of any relevant information relating to the registered item becoming invalid or incomplete. A person inheriting a registration in an ivory item would therefore be subject to this duty at the point he or she became responsible for the registration. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, outlined very compelling reasons. If a person inheriting or taking possession of an ivory item is unaware that the item is registered, the Government would expect that person to decide whether he or she wants to sell or hire the item and to register it accordingly.

The main point I want to reference is that we are working extremely hard with all concerned to ensure that the self-registration of ivory items will be straight-forward and as simple as possible for those expected to use the registration system. For the security of the next generation in ensuring the item is as it should be and is properly registered, I am very sorry to have to disappoint my noble friend. It is in the interest of the next generation that we have the provisions for the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, outlined rather better than I have. On that basis, I respectfully ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

Water: Bills and Executive Remuneration

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of increases in customer water bills and levels of remuneration paid to water company executives.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, average water and sewerage bills fell in real terms from £420 in 2009-10 to £395 in 2017-18. Bills will continue to fall. Ofwat expects a further average reduction of 5% in 2020-25. The Government support Ofwat’s action to increase transparency of executive pay and bonuses, which must be based on better services for customers.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but he will know that water bills have risen by 40% above inflation since privatisation and nearly 2 million will need help to pay their water bills by 2020. Despite poor levels of customer service, water company bosses are paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses, with CEO pay averaging £1.2 million. Some of them are paid twice that amount. At the same time, water companies are hiding behind complex financial structures and offshore havens to avoid paying taxes. The Secretary of State has been critical of the water companies, but what is he actually doing on the ground to make sure that profits are focused on better preparation for weather extremes, not just paying excessive bonuses to the few?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s question is extremely timely. Only today, Ofwat published a summary of the changes to the upcoming price review process, which were discussed with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who agrees entirely with Ofwat’s actions. It will require companies to share the benefits of high levels of debt finance with customers, ensure that performance-related executive pay rewards genuinely stretching performance —which benefits customers—and be transparent about dividends and explain how they relate to costs and service delivery to customers. If necessary, we will go further.

Flood Risk

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we are consulting on the new body, but we have strong aspirations, particularly with our 25-year environment plan, to enhance the environment, and of course that involves reducing risk from natural hazards such as flooding. Given the responses to the Health and Harmony consultation on future farming arrangements, we are also exploring ways to incentivise farming methods that reduce flood risk. Slowing the Flow, at Pickering, to which my noble friend refers, is a good example of natural flood management.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the flooding of Millbank House and its subsequent closure shows how quickly flash flooding can affect any infrastructure, particularly vital infrastructure. We know that tube stations, electricity substations and so on have been knocked out in the past. Has a national survey been done of vital infrastructure where flooding could knock out services, what steps are being taken to ensure that we protect it from flash flooding, and when can we be assured that the things that keep the country moving will be protected in the longer term? What is the deadline for doing all the repair and protection of that infrastructure that will allow us to sleep more soundly in our beds?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, surface water is often much more difficult to forecast than flooding from rivers. Obviously, flash flooding has occurred, but following earlier floods the National Flood Resilience Review, published in September 2016, specifically examined the scale of flood risk and the resilience of infrastructure to flooding. That is why there are many examples of utility companies and other national infrastructure locations ensuring, rightly, that their assets are better protected from flooding. Much of this work will continue for the long term: adapting to climate change, changing with coastal erosion and deciding where the coast is to retreat and where we need to replenish. All this is part of a cocktail that we will always continue to consider.

Transport Emissions in Urban Areas

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Statement. He will know that the Question focused on transport emissions because of their glaring omission from today’s published clean air strategy. Defra’s own research makes it clear that the quickest way to tackle nitrogen oxide pollution is to introduce a network of clean air zones in urban areas. Can the Minister explain why this Government are adamantly refusing to take this action?

At the same time, there is an urgent need to phase out diesel cars and vans. The Government’s current target is a very unambitious 2040. Does the Minister accept that it is both feasible and desirable to bring that date forward?

Finally, today’s clean air strategy has been produced in part to satisfy the courts, which have demanded urgent action. Does the noble Lord recognise the important role that courts can play in defending environmental standards? Will his Government now pledge to support our amendment, giving greater powers, including recourse to court action, to the UK green watchdog post Brexit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is an extremely ambitious strategy. New legislation will be introduced to give local government new powers to take decisive action. We have deliberately said that this is for local government because, with the funds that we are providing of £3.5 billion, we want to work with local government because we think that that is the place where local decisions can be best made. That is why we need to work in partnership—and we are intending to, because that is how we will receive the greatest remedy.

The noble Baroness suggested that, in effect, the Government were not proceeding with vigour. In fact, we are bringing forward some of the most ambitious proposals for any developed economy. Many of them exceed what other EU countries are doing—and I think that that is very important indeed.

On the point about the courts, clearly we are mindful of what court proceedings have said. We were very pleased that the court in the last case acknowledged the right course of action. Where it did not agree was in saying that we should have directed local authorities, which we have now done; we will work with 61 local authorities where the most concern is directed. That is precisely where we will solve a lot of problems, particularly of nitrogen dioxide. Certainly, that is what we intend to do.

Animal Products: Labelling and Packaging

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I shall certainly take back what my noble friend has said. It is clear that we have some of the best food standards in the world. We are exporting much larger numbers— £22 billion in the food and drink sector—so it is vital for our reputation that all provenance of seeds and food is of the highest order.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, according to Which?, one in six Americans get food poisoning whereas the figure in the UK is only about one in 66. Will the Government introduce a mandatory food labelling scheme post-Brexit so that consumers can make an informed choice about the country of origin, as well as the welfare standards, of the meat products they will be consuming so they can keep their families safe?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness knows that with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill we are bringing back all the requirements under our domestic legislation, and of course that requires that countries of origin should be on the label.

Legislative Reform (Constitution of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the background to the order with such clarity. I also found helpful the explanatory document which gives the background.

However, I was concerned to read that no impact assessment had been prepared, with the reason given that there was no significant impact on the private, voluntary or public sectors. I would hope that the Minister will acknowledge—as I think he did—that vets have a significant impact on public health: for example, in relation to food standards, the breeding and feeding of livestock, research facilities and drug companies. Therefore, the regulation of veterinary practice has a wider public interest. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Having said that, in line with all noble Lords who have spoken we support the proposals and regard them as a helpful step in modernising the functions of the RCVS. Its aspiration to be a first-rate regulator has to be welcomed. By any stretch, as noble Lords have said, a council of 42 people is unwieldy, and that results, as appears to be the case here, in split responsibilities between the council and operational board, which raises concerns about where the ultimate responsibility lies. We also welcome the steps to broaden expertise on the council by adding lay members and veterinary nurses to the representation.

Having said that, I have a few questions for the Minister. First, the current RCVS council is supported by a system of statutory committees, standing committees, sub-committees and working parties. It also has, as I just said, an operational board which oversees college management, governance and the management of resources. Can the Minister clarify how the proposed changes to the size of the council might impact on the delegation of duties to the operational board and those committees? How will that work with a council half the size of the original, and is he confident that the existing workload can be covered by a much smaller council?

Secondly, given the regulatory and animal welfare roles of the RCVS, this is an instance where size and composition could matter. Could the Minister therefore clarify what consideration has been given to the potential loss of expertise that will result from the proposed changes? What procedures are in place to ensure that appropriate skill sets and expertise are maintained? In particular, the LRO proposes a big reduction in the number of members appointed by veterinary schools. At a time when our scientific understanding of animal disease and public impact is moving at a fast rate, how will the council maintain and stay abreast of scientific developments that affect its public reputation and trust? The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, touched upon this issue but it goes wider, as it is about the fast-moving science and being up to date and aware of all that.

Finally, I have seen in the press that the posts for the lay members are already being advertised, with applications to be sent to the royal college. Does the Minister agree that it is important that these appointments are carried out with transparency and overseen by an independent body? Can he explain how it is intended that these appointments are made, and how we are to have trust that genuine lay member independence will be achieved if the royal college is to be involved in those appointments?

I very much look forward to the Minister’s response to those questions, but overall I echo the comments made by other noble Lords as we agree with the proposals.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and for the warm welcome for these proposals, which have been the result of the department working in consultation with the royal college to make sure that we get this right and that it serves the purpose of achieving a balance.

I would like to take head-on what the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to when they mentioned the reduction of the veterinary surgeon element of the council. There was a concern that there may be a loss of expertise and experience if that came about. In a sense, it is precisely one of the reasons for this order. We all wanted to ensure that there was this range. We recognise what the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said about the range of vets in practice, in corporate situations and in the state veterinary service, and the range of the duties of that profession. It is in effect why, in taking into account a number of representations, specifically on these points, the Government and the RCVS settled on a council that actually will be bigger than that recommended by the First Rate Regulator initiative. It is precisely a recognition that we wanted there to continue to be a range of expertise. We and the college thought that this would ensure that the necessary expertise was there.

There is always a balance to be achieved when we try to get things right, and there was also the existing concern about the council’s efficiency. My noble friend Lady Byford could not have chimed in more helpfully with the experience that she brings to these matters—the experience and knowledge of the unwieldiness of the current arrangement and the desire of the college to have good governance and better regulation, as well as recognising the vital role that the college plays. That is why we have the numbers to ensure precisely that there is this experience on the council.

A number of points were raised. It is right that we send a message to the college. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke about new blood and the length of service dynamic. Yes, it is very important to the profession that innovative thinking and new knowledge are always available to the council, which is why the veterinary schools composition on the council is so essential. But it is also important that younger vets come on so that there is a diversity in the council.

I should have declared this before, but it is not really a declaratory interest. Two members of my family are members of this profession, so I get a considerable amount of background information, and one thing that is really important is how every practice relies on the professionalism of the veterinary nurses as well as the veterinary surgeons. In the blend of what this council will have, the experience of two members of the veterinary nursing profession coming on to the council will make a significant difference to the way in which the council can think about these things.

I am going to dance on a pin, as it were, with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about the no impact assessment. The proposed changes address the efficiency and accountability of decision-making by the council, but do not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves. They will therefore not have any impact on businesses or charities. That may be something that the noble Baroness and I reflected on when we met. But that is the precise reason why there was no impact assessment. The order does not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked a number of other questions. She mentioned university vet schools. She is absolutely right that it is vital that vet schools provide expertise in certain areas for the council. All the vet schools are content with the proposal for collective representation in place of individual allocations. The current arrangements would lead to a continued increase in the size of the council, as any new vet school would automatically be allocated two places on the council. There is a reflection that we probably should be training more vets in this country; I know that some universities are thinking of opening a veterinary school. This new arrangement also addresses the fact that potentially, if many more veterinary schools were to open, we would automatically add a further two to the council, which would be unhelpful to good governance and to the profession.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I thank the Minister for a number of very helpful responses. However, he did not address the issue of the appointments of lay members, with the royal college seeming to be fully hands-on with that, and the need for more independent scrutiny of that process. I do not know whether he can answer that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The important thing about lay members is that they are independent of the profession. I will write to the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have participated so that I can give a little more detail on the mechanism for the appointment of lay members. Obviously, it must be done in a punctilious way, through all sorts of processes. This is a three-year transition and, subject to your Lordships’ consent, one of the reasons for the advertisements—I admit that it might be suggested that this is jumping the gun—is the strong desire in the profession to get on with this and begin the transition in July. If your Lordships and the other place did not consent, this would obviously be premature. There was a strong desire to start the process and not wait until 2019, but to get this transition to bring in immediately six lay members and then contract down over three years the number of veterinary surgeons and introduce the other membership I have outlined. That was precisely because this is work we need to get on with. I will write to the noble Baroness with the fullest detail.

Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the intent behind the regulations. As he says, the proposals provide a long overdue update on a number of aspects of the regulations about keeping and selling animals as pets, which, as he says, are well out of date. We welcome much of the content, which would improve the licensing requirements of owners, breeders and sellers alike. I might have been guilty of this, but while we have used the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee reports to criticise the department, it is also worth placing on record its unusual praise on this occasion in drawing the regulations to our attention. It says:

“We commend Defra on a well-judged and informative”,


Explanatory Memorandum. I echo that and say well done to the staff.

We welcome the new licensing approach, which encourages businesses to become low risk through delivering high standards, with those that conform being able to have licenses for a longer period, rather than having to reapply each year. That seems to make sense. However, it is important that this flexibility is used for the right reasons and that it is not just seen as an easy option for local authorities that do not have the staff or the resources to visit premises only every two or three years. It is important that that high standard underpins all this and that it is not traded off for financial constraints. We also welcome the obvious thing of having one standard licence rather than multiple licences. Again, that is good common sense, but we have some concerns about the application of the licensing system, which I will come back to shortly.

In addition, we have campaigned for a long time to require puppy sales to be completed in the presence of the new owner, for a ban on the sale of puppies and kittens under eight weeks old, and for the licensing threshold for dog breeders to be reduced, so we welcome all of those developments. However, as the Minister knows, we very much regret that the opportunity was not also taken in these regulations to ban the third-party commercial sale of puppies and kittens. Indeed, it is not really clear how many of the other improved welfare standards that underpin these regulations can be enforced while third-party sales continue, many of which happen under the radar and are not properly regulated.

The reality is that, as the noble Lord said, there has been a huge rise in online sales of puppies and kittens fuelled by “rogue traders”—I think that was his expression—which are often overseas and are sadly renowned for having poor welfare standards. This all has a knock-on effect. The poor animals that are traded on this basis have health and behavioural problems associated with long journeys, often travelling many hundreds of miles in unhygienic conditions, and often with premature separation from their mothers, who themselves are often kept in exploitative and inhumane puppy farms abroad. There have been numerous whistleblowing cases where we have seen examples of this—in particular in eastern Europe, but they come from all sorts of places across the continent.

I still do not feel that the measures before us address this problem. The noble Lord was talking about curtailing adverts. Obviously those sorts of measures are welcome, but we are still seeing that illegal trade taking place. I do not see that it will be dealt with until we have that third-party commercial ban. We believe that it is time to stamp out this trade, which is why we support such a ban. However, the fact that the Government have now issued a separate consultation that revisits this issue has given us some hope. We look forward to participating in that debate and hope that, in time, the Government will see the error of their ways on this issue.

In the meantime, I have some questions for the Minister arising from the regulations before us. First, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, there seems to have been a very long delay between the end of the consultation in March 2016 and the appearance of these regulations today. That seems to be a bit of a hallmark of the department. Can the Minister explain why it has taken two years to process the regulations?

Secondly, the regulations are to be supported by more detailed schedules and guidance, but the way in which they are written at the moment uses very simple language. In one sense that is great, because it is easy to understand. However, they use phrases such as “adequate” facilities, “sufficient” space and a “suitable” environment, all of which are open to interpretation, so it is important that as soon as possible we have measurable requirements so that local authorities can make a proper assessment of whether welfare standards are being maintained. When will that more detailed guidance be provided so that we can be assured that there will be proper ways to measure the improvement in welfare standards?

Thirdly, has any further thought been given to introducing a microchip database recording microchip numbers on entry to the UK and extending microchipping to cats? Does the Minister agree that this would help to cut down on the illegal trade in puppies and kittens?

Fourthly, a number of noble Lords have talked about the new inspection arrangements. We are concerned that local authority inspectors will be undertrained and underresourced to manage the new licensing regime successfully. What, if any, additional resources are being provided to local authorities to carry out these duties? Is the Minister concerned that the proposal for level 2 qualifications for inspectors is not really high enough for them to understand the complex animal welfare needs that they will be required to inspect? Indeed, what plans are there to require licence holders themselves—the actual owners of these animals—to demonstrate minimum competence standards and meet best practice?

The impact assessment assumes a one-off familiarisation for businesses and local authorities of two hours a week. Does the Minister agree that this is wholly inadequate and that a much more rigorous training regime needs to be developed? Can he shed some further light on how the licensing fees will be established? In response to questions in the Commons, the Minister there said that the licences would be,

“funded by full cost recovery … so there is no financial burden on local authorities”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/03/18; col. 5.]

We understand what that means, but how will it be calculated in practice? We are talking about a differential cost for licence holders in every different local authority. Will all licensed operators be compelled to pay a contribution not just towards the inspections of the good guys, if I can put it like that, but towards the enforcement activities taken against all the illegal operators too? The people who own up and pay up will be paying for the policing. It differs in different parts of the country, but there could be quite widespread potentially illegal activities, and that does not seem very fair. Is that not a case of penalising those who play by the rules, rather than getting everyone to up their game?

Lastly, the regulations address only certain kinds of commercial animal services, such as providing boarding for cats and dogs and day care for dogs. Several noble Lords have mentioned other kinds of commercial animal services. My bugbear, which I have mentioned to the Minister in the past, is that commercial dog walkers are becoming big business these days: they often deal with large numbers of dogs during the day, yet they do not seem to be covered by these regulations. Has any thought been given to requiring commercial dog walkers to have a licence? Are any reviews of other animal licensing arrangements currently taking place for new businesses that are developing?

In conclusion, while we welcome many of these proposals, there seems a lot more work to be done in raising animal welfare standards across the board. We therefore look forward to receiving these details from the Minister in due course. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the many very pertinent questions that have been raised today.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has been a very important discussion, and I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for recording what I would call some praise, but some chastisement as well. Her genuine praise was for the officials who have been engaged on this matter over a considerable period. I will be in longer form in a moment but the most important thing is to have got these regulations right. They may have taken some time but it is better to get them right, because this has involved fairly intricate work with a number of parties, which I will explain in greater detail.

I am very struck by the universal endorsement of the spirit of what the regulations are seeking, which is to enhance animal welfare. Again, I acknowledge that it would not have been possible to get to the detail that we will have without the support of the Canine and Feline Sector Group, the Equine Sector Council, the local authorities, vets charities and participants in this sector generally. We always want to root out the bad but we should also remember that there are some extremely good and dedicated dog and cat breeders, who care immensely for their animals and would not dream of selling them to what they identified as an indifferent home, so these things can work both ways. The purpose of much of what we have been wrestling with is to ensure that we endorse the good, raise the standard of the intermediate and root out the bad. In my lay man’s terms, that is how I see our objective.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Bakewell, raised the issue of third-party sales. As has been mentioned, we have issued a call for evidence in relation to a ban on the third-party sale of puppies and kittens. I should say that part of the issue was that not all the interested parties in the animal charity world were of a common view on this. But—I stress “but”—I acknowledge that there are strong feelings on this issue, and such a ban would prevent commercial sellers selling puppies and kittens unless they had bred the animal. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, the call for evidence closes on 2 May, after which we will consider the way forward. We are seeking to publish that by the end of July. One possibility, if we were to go down this route, would be to amend these regulations using the powers under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. However, we felt that in the meantime it was not sensible to delay the implementation of what are already advances in the range of these regulations. Clearly, as always, guidance is where we will have further and better particulars, and I say to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that we are very conscious that guidance needs to be published. We aim to publish by the end of July precisely for many of the reasons that have been outlined.

I will seek to answer some of the questions asked and if, in my view, I have not answered any sufficiently, I will of course write to noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, queried whether organisations such as charities that provide riding for the disabled would require a licence for the hiring out of horses. I can confirm that the regulations apply only to commercial businesses, so it is extremely unlikely that a registered charity would be required to hold a licence. But I emphasise that it depends on what might be undertaken in each individual case. The point is that these regulations deal with commercial businesses.

Brexit: Fisheries Management

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but he will know that the Secretary of State made great play of how he would fast-track our rights to fish in our own coastal waters on EU exit day and outside of EU constraints. The fact is that he has now been overruled by others in the Cabinet, which has accepted this deal. That is why we have real concerns that, despite the Secretary of State’s promises, he will be overruled again and again—for example, when the Cabinet is confronted with the choice of new trade deals, or retaining future animal and food quality standards.

The Secretary of State has made a number of promises that are now open to question. Can the Minister clarify who exactly in the exit talks is leading the negotiations on fishing? Can we be assured that those negotiators will now be more honest with fishing communities about their negotiating position in the future? What guarantees can the Minister give that at the end of the transition period, our fishing rights will not be traded away for some other economic priority? What steps will the Government take to provide immediate support for those coastal communities who are bitterly disappointed by this decision and who, as we know, are already suffering acutely from economic hardship?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, along with my colleagues in the department we share the disappointment that the noble Baroness has suggested, but of course the UK share of quotas will not change during the implementation period and we will be attending the international negotiations. This is an extension, and the implementation period is due to conclude in December 2020, so that during that time we will be in a position to advance the things we think are absolutely right and to ensure that we fish in a sustainable manner. This country has been in the lead on that and we want to ensure, through our negotiations not only with EU members but with other independent coastal states, that the fisheries in this part of the planet are sustainably fished. That is a very important prize for us because the seafaring communities of this country are vital to us and, as I say, the changes that our negotiators have been able to secure are valuable because there is certainty. However, now we shall work on the access that we will have as an independent coastal nation, which I think is a very strong prospect for the future.

Northern Forest

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, tree planting needs to take place across the United Kingdom. HS3 and the northern powerhouse will bring an improvement for all the communities of those cities. It is really important that we plant more trees and achieve our objective to increase tree cover across the country.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously we welcome this initiative but, following on from the noble Baroness’s question, I point out the real challenge about protecting existing ancient woodlands. When I put a Written Question to the Minister a couple of months ago about how many trees were felled each year, rather than how many were planted, I was told that the Government did not keep that information. Is not there a need to have better protection for existing ancient woodland as well as the good initiatives that the Minister has described today?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, ancient woodland is clearly very important as part of the glories of our country. In fact, overall in England, the level of permanent ancient woodlands lost to other land uses was 57 hectares—0.02% between 2006 and 2015—but, actually, 13,481 hectares of planted ancient woodland sites have been restored since April 2011. We want to ensure protection, which is why Defra and other departments are working in terms of the National Planning Policy Framework, because we should cherish our ancient woodlands.

Air Quality

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my involvement with the charity ClientEarth and thank the Minister for repeating that Answer. Surely he recognises that this court ruling is a damning indictment of the Government’s handling of the air quality issue. Let us be clear: yesterday, the judge ruled that the Government’s 2017 air quality plan was “unlawful” and went on to say:

“It is now eight years since compliance with the 2008 Directive should have been achieved. This is the third, unsuccessful, attempt the Government has made at devising an AQP which complies with the Directive and the domestic Regulations”.


He was so critical of the Government’s response that he is now considering direct court supervision of the Government’s future plans.

Meanwhile, the Government issued a completely misleading press release yesterday claiming that this was some sort of victory. I am sorry to say that the Minister’s Statement today has similar shades of complacency. This is an issue about which there is, quite rightly, huge public concern. We have previously heard of the estimated 40,000 premature deaths a year from heart attacks, strokes and respiratory problems. This is a public health crisis.

Are the Government planning to appeal against this judgment again? Alternatively, will they now take the advice of their own officials and implement a network of clean air zones in the 33 towns and cities which are projected to have continuing illegal levels of pollution? Can the Minister explain the difference between the action that he is now proposing and what was presented to the court and has already been rejected by the judge? I suspect that the court will want a great deal more than the outcome of feasibility studies in the non-compliant cities by October this year.

There has been real concern around this House that the Government are not taking this issue sufficiently seriously. I hope that the Minister can now convince us that a major rethink is going on in the department and that the Government will finally come back with solid proposals that will deliver a proper legal deadline for clean air zones in the shortest possible time.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I think that all your Lordships want clean and cleaner air. That is why the Government have invested considerable sums of money, amounting to £3.5 billion. I can go through some of that expenditure in detail, but much of it is in support of things such as cleaner buses. For instance, retrofitting school buses in Manchester has resulted in a 92% reduction in emissions; the level of nitrogen dioxide fell by 27% from 2010 to 2016 and by 10% from 2015 to 2016. So progress is being made, but we want to do more. That is why, across the piece, we are going to bring forward our clean air strategy.

However, I want to be clear to the noble Baroness that the judge acknowledged that very considerable time and effort had been invested by both Ministers and officials. The judge also said, in relation to the five main cities where there is a considerable problem, that what was being brought forward was lawful. I do not want to trade elements of the judgment, because we should take it seriously. That is why, instead of requesting the 33 local authorities to undertake measures, we will be requiring and directing them to do so, because we want to make progress.

It is interesting that, of those 33 areas—which is really what the judgment came down to: what we are going to do about those 33 areas where we need to achieve compliance—10 are projected to come into compliance next year, 13 in 2020 and the final 10 in 2021. In looking at this, a lot of what can be done could be done comparatively cheaply—for instance, the rephasing of traffic lights, including at roundabouts. There are a number of ways in which we want to work with the individual local authorities concerned. The reason we have requested and required the leaders to come to the meeting next Wednesday is precisely so we can get what we all want, which is cleaner air for everyone.

Abattoirs: Non-stun Slaughter

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 7th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the labelling issue is very important. We think it is absolutely essential that everyone can make an informed choice. We will be considering this issue in the context of our departure from the EU. I also say to my noble friend that farm assurance schemes, such as Red Tractor and the RSPCA Assured scheme, require stunned slaughter. That is an important feature.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we all welcome the introduction of compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses, which should assist with proper welfare standards. The noble Lord will know, however, that the recent incident at 2 Sisters came to light not because of the CCTV but because of undercover reporters. Unless the Food Standards Agency has the proper resources to look at the footage, we will get no further forward. Will the Minister explain what extra resources will be put in place so that the CCTV footage is used and not just sitting there in a dead camera?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is very important that the official veterinarian takes his or her duties extremely seriously. That is why the footage will need to be stored by the slaughterhouse operators for 90 days. The official veterinarians will have access to the CCTV systems and their recorded images. It is important that CCTV recording may be used as evidence. On resources, the official veterinarians, who are essential to this, have their duties. There have to be official veterinarians in slaughterhouses. As I said, this will be an important part of the work of enhancing animal welfare at the end of animals’ lives.

Recycling: Chinese Import Ban

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the resources and waste strategy will be very important in that regard, and it is encouraging that industry is picking this up. We have already had announcements from businesses about plastic-free brand products, and it is interesting that we are now recycling 60% of our packaging. Therefore, although we need to seek further increases in recycling rates, we are now going in the right direction.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not time that the people at the top of the supply chain started taking more responsibility for the materials they produce? Manufacturers are always very quick to blame recyclers for allowing a build-up of waste to occur but, rather than just relying on manufacturers to take a voluntary approach, what are the Government doing to hold them to account for the plastic pollution they produce? That is at the heart of the problem. They need to produce alternatives to plastic but they are not doing that in sufficient numbers.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we certainly need research and co-operation from all to increase recycling rates. Business is beginning to make some important strides. The Co-op, Iceland, Unilever and the packaging industry have committed to implementing solutions to enable the sustainable recycling of all black plastic packaging by the end of this year. We need to collaborate and work with business. We have strong targets and we all have to change many of our attitudes.

Fisheries: London Convention—Withdrawal

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 11th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, one of the key elements is that we have a responsibility to fish all these waters sustainably, and those in this country and in the EU should be proud of that. One of the great things we have been able to do co-operatively, and what I would like us to do afterwards, is ensure that in UK waters we fish all stock sustainably. We need to work in collaboration.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord will know that the Government played a significant role in creating the new EU multilateral management plan for the North Sea, and have indicated that we want to carry on participating in this plan or a similar one in the future, post Brexit. Does he believe that the EU 27 will take this commitment at face value in the light of the unilateral decision to withdraw from the London Fisheries Convention? Will not the rest of the EU think this is rather provocative and respond accordingly?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the countries involved in the London Fisheries Convention expected this to happen. It deals with the six to 12 miles issue when already we will leave the 12 to 200 miles agreement when we leave the common fisheries policy and the EU. This is why we took the decision that we did. As I have said, we want to work with partners, because fish stocks need to be sustainably driven. However, it gives an opportunity for the excellent fishing fleets in all parts of our kingdom to fish productively, sustainably and profitably.

Food Safety Standards: Brexit

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 11th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that, after Brexit, current United Kingdom food safety standards are not undermined by the import of poorer quality food produced to lower animal welfare standards from the United States and other potential trading partners.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register. We want to advance the consumption of great British food both at home and abroad. Our food is held in high repute thanks to our animal welfare and food safety standards. The withdrawal Bill will transfer on to the UK statute book all EU food safety and animal welfare standards. Our current high standards, including import requirements, will apply when we leave the EU.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, but is he aware that Liam Fox has agreed with American officials that their trade talks will be held in secret and that the US Commerce Secretary has said that scrapping the hygiene rules that hinder US exports of food to the UK and others would be a,

“critical component of any trade discussion”?

Is he also aware that Liam Fox is previously on record as saying that there is nothing wrong with chlorine-dipped poultry, despite its use to disguise huge bacterial contamination, such as salmonella and E. coli, which arise from its inadequate hygiene standards? The Government are clearly desperate for a US trade deal, so how can we be sure that the interests of British consumers and farmers will not be sacrificed in pursuit of that bigger prize, or are the Government ultimately prepared to walk away if compromise is demanded in those negotiations?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity, because clearly, as I said, the withdrawal Bill will bring back legal requirements on to our statute book. Yes, of course we want to have a vibrant trade arrangement with the United States of America—I hope all your Lordships wish to have vibrant trade arrangements around the world; we are a trading nation after all—but we have been very clear that we are not going to water down or compromise on the standards I have set out. Indeed, they will be transferred into our own domestic law. The very points that the noble Baroness raised will be on the statute book.

Plastic Waste

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. What we want to do, through the resources and waste strategy which will be published later this year and the clean growth strategy which was published in October last year, is to see zero avoidable waste. We want to see less packaging and that the plastic we do use is readily recyclable.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that, apart from persuading consumers to use less plastic, the Government should be doing more to encourage emerging technologies in this area by creating markets for recycled plastics? Sadly, the first wave of plastic recycling companies could not survive because virgin plastic was cheaper than recycled plastic. Is this not an area in which the Government really should be intervening to ensure that there are proper markets for recycled goods so that the recycling companies can grow and prosper?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. We want to ensure that we use all the innovation and technology we can. It is interesting to note that a number of the key waste management companies see what has happened in China as, ironically, a real opportunity. Companies like Suez and Biffa are saying that there are real opportunities in this and they want to find alternative markets. This is a serious situation on an international scale. For example, some 56% of globally exported plastic waste ends up in China, so we need to address this issue on a global basis.

Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is precisely why we have published the report on a consistency framework, because we want better communications with householders and an improvement in the recyclability of packaging materials. There are some really good examples of what can be done. Stroud has seen a 14% increase in recycling, and Maldon an 11% increase, in one year. Indeed, the council which my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford led for such a long time now has a recycling rate of 61.3% and is the only really urban local authority on that top list. We are working particularly with urban local authorities to improve the situation.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is very good at choosing his statistics but he will know that I have drawn attention in the past to the success of Wales, which is now second in the world for recycling household waste—in comparison to England, which ranks 18th, behind South Korea and Slovenia among others. Is not the lesson here that the Welsh Government did not just leave the problem to local authorities but provided leadership, including on mandatory separate collections and statutory targets for recycling, which is what made all the difference? When are this Government going to follow their example?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am delighted to congratulate anyone in the United Kingdom who does well, and I am very pleased that Wales is doing well. I also endorse those English and Scottish local authorities that are seeking to improve a situation that we all know is hugely important. That is why we are working with WRAP, local authorities and industry. This is an issue for which we have responsibility. We have a target of 50% by 2020 and we need to achieve that target. I am very ambitious that we go beyond it in the future as well.

Rural Poverty

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions they plan to take to tackle rural poverty.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, government policy is based on economic prosperity and helping people out of poverty. The Government are again increasing the national living wage and tax thresholds, investing more than £9 billion in affordable housing, introducing the warm home discount, reforming the energy company obligation and providing 30 hours of free childcare. All these are intended to help people and families with low incomes across the country.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, but he will have seen the latest figures showing that UK poverty levels are increasing, with a 30% increase for children just in the past year. This is particularly damaging in rural areas, which are already being left behind economically in comparison to growth in the cities. This is a direct result of the Government’s policies. We know that rural employment is too low, low skilled and insecure. The abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board is making matters worse for those who work on the land. Further, young people in rural areas do not have easy access to decent schools, training opportunities or post-16 education. When are the Government going to accept their responsibility to tackle rural poverty and the lack of social mobility in these areas, which is holding their prosperity back?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely agree that we need to advance on these subjects. That is why I am pleased to say that since 2010 we have 600,000 fewer people in absolute poverty—a record level—200,000 fewer children in absolute poverty, 300,000 fewer working-age adults in absolute poverty, 3 million more people in work and 954,000 fewer workless homes. That is the way in which we will ensure prosperity across the country and, in fact, it is why rural areas have lower unemployment. We are working extremely hard on a range of issues to ensure rural prosperity; the Government are doing all they can on that.

Air Quality

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept Defra’s own modelling, which shows that the most effective measure to reach compliance with the law in the shortest possible time is to introduce charges for polluting cars entering designated clean air zones? Why do the Government not act on their own best advice and expect all polluting local authorities to act on it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, under our arrangements in the air quality plan to do with nitrogen dioxide in particular, there are all sorts of ways local authorities can take action, and they have ability to create clean air zones. That is on the statute book and is something we are working on with local authorities. Clearly there will be highly localised solutions to some of these problems with nitrogen dioxide.

Brexit: Non-chemical Farming Methods

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the ongoing concerns about pesticides are around not only their impact on the health of those living in rural communities but the impact on bees and other pollinators. Does the Minister agree that we should adhere to the precautionary principle when we authorise the use of these chemicals in the future?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have just come back from Kew; I presented the Bees’ Needs awards to primary schools and many other organisations, including large landed estates. The National Pollinator Strategy and the national plan on pesticides are designed to include the sustainable use of pesticides. The most important message of all is on the sustainable use of pesticides. Pesticides used in the right way are very important for agricultural production and for many of the things we want to do in urban areas, too.

Brexit: EEZ and Territorial Seas

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, the purpose of the JMOCC is to ensure the best co-ordination. Obviously, we rely on the Royal Navy, as we have traditionally. The offshore patrol vessels currently in operation will be replaced by five more capable Batch 2 OPVs, being built in Govan; then there is our Border Force, with six coastal patrol vessels and five cutters. Marine Scotland runs its own arrangements, and the 10 inshore fisheries conservation authorities have 31 “sea-going assets”, as they are described, ranging from small, inshore vessels to larger fisheries protection vessels. I want to be absolutely clear: we are analysing and working on how we can best enhance the capability.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the UK’s obligation under international law to co-ordinate with neighbouring states on access rights and sustainable management of fishing stocks. As not all of the EU 27 states have an interest in this, will the Minister tell us what bilateral discussions the Government are having with all our potential neighbouring fishing allies and competitors? How will the Lords be kept up to date with progress in those discussions?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there were a number of points there. We will be introducing a fisheries Bill, as was in the Queen’s Speech. Our objective is to publish a White Paper by Christmas.

Air and Water Pollution: Impact

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Thursday 26th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is why my noble friend will be very pleased that Grown in Britain is an initiative that I very much encourage.

I am very much looking forward to visiting in every diocese an ozone garden, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury outlined. While these achievements show what we can achieve, we know that more must be done. The evidence of the damage from poor air quality to health and the environment has grown significantly in recent years. The most immediate challenge is tackling nitrogen dioxide concentrations around roads—the only statutory air quality limit that the UK is currently failing to meet. In 2008, the UK Government, I am sure in good faith, signed up to tougher standards, based on the assumption that they would solve our roadside air quality problem, but this of course was to no avail. Current Euro 6 diesels emit, on average, six times the laboratory test limit. We should all be pleased that our country led the way in securing the new real driving emissions testing.

As the UK improves air quality, air quality hotspots are going to become even more localised, and the importance of local action will increase. I take a contrary view to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, in that the work we need to do with local government is going to be absolutely imperative. As we get to and reduce the hotspots, it is local knowledge that will enable us to resolve this issue. That is why, in May this year, the UK Government published a clean air zone framework, setting out the principles that local authorities should follow in setting up clear air zones in England. That framework empowers local authorities to make the most of the opportunities offered by the Government’s air quality plan.

The Government have committed £3 billion in varying ways to improving air quality. There is the more recent £255 million fund to support local authorities with persistent nitrogen dioxide concentration exceedances, and £1.2 billion for a cycling and walking investment strategy. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, raised this very important issue. There is £1 billion for improving the infrastructure for ultra-low emission vehicles, and £290 million to reduce transport emissions as part of the National Productivity Investment Fund. Indeed, that money is making a difference. The Clean Bus Technology Fund has reduced emissions of nitrogen oxides from almost 3,000 older buses by 75%. Retrofitting school buses in Manchester resulted in a 92% reduction after two years in service. The Local Sustainable Transport Fund has resulted in 780 km of new cycle routes, 230 upgraded rail stations, and 200 better bus services. Nitrogen dioxide emissions fell by almost 20%—

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but the issue that none of us can understand—not just we on these Benches, but lots of campaigners and so on—is why the Government will not just adopt a new clean air Act. It is such a simple thing, and would provide a framework for a number of the initiatives he is talking about. However, it would also provide statutory backing for some of the things that are currently voluntary requirements of local authorities, and which frankly are not happening.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I was going to get to that but I am afraid my time is getting increasingly short because of interventions, so I may have to write in more detail on a lot of these matters.

By next year, 92% of the road miles which we are monitoring—the ones more likely to be of concern—will comply with average annual concentration limits. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, will be pleased that, per capita, we have reduced emissions faster than any other G7 nation. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, and all other noble Lords that we must go further. The Government have announced they will end the sale of all conventional diesel and petrol cars and vans by 2040.

Animal Welfare Offences

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is the case that in addition to imprisonment we can impose through the courts an unlimited fine. My noble friend is right: one of the ways to protect animals is the disqualification route, and indeed that can be for life. It is very important that that includes having any influence over the way that an animal is kept, and obviously that could include an animal that belonged to another family member. The most important aspect of our sanctions is to reduce the scope for cruelty and to root it out.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we very much welcome the Secretary of State’s recent announcement of an increase in maximum sentences, as the Minister has described, but does he accept that the law is only as good as the people who will need to enforce it? For instance, the Dogs Trust has repeatedly highlighted the scandal of puppy smuggling into the UK. It is done not by individuals but by organised gangs which, as we know, frequently keep underage puppies in appalling conditions. Does he accept that more police and border control resources are needed to stop this cruel practice, otherwise the law becomes meaningless?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, what the noble Baroness has said is absolutely on the dot: we need to drive down on the illegal smuggling of puppies. That is why I endorse what the Dogs Trust has done in working with Kent County Council, Border Force and the transport companies. We absolutely want to rout out the illegal smuggling of puppies. That is one of the reasons why it is so important that we invite people who wish to have pets to consider rehoming and make sure that, if they want to buy a puppy, they see it interacting with its mother—look to those sources and do not go for puppies that very often arrive in this country ill.

Local Authorities: Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is intriguing, because in South Oxfordshire, for example, it is 66.6% and in the London Borough of Newham, it is 14.7%. One issue that my colleague Thérèse Coffey is dealing with is that many councils in urban areas of all political persuasions are finding recycling much more of a challenge, so we need to work on that.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we need to be realistic about the overall recycling rates. The fact is that in England, recycling levels are falling according to the latest WRAP figures. We are now in danger of not even meeting the 50% recycling target by 2020 in England. When we talked about this before, the Minister agreed that we could learn a great deal from the Welsh Government, where rates are already at 63% and rising: they are going up in Wales and down in England. What lessons has he taken from the Welsh Government about how we could improve things in England?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It is certainly important that we learn from where there are good examples. I referred to good examples in England; there are indeed good examples in Wales. We need to listen and learn from them. In Wales, a single blueprint is published; in England, there are three suggestions in the consistency document. This is all about how much we mingle—I gather that that is the word—recyclable produce. In some areas, it is easier to mingle it all and in others it is easier to separate it. The problem with that is that you might get five bins or you might get three. That is the issue that we need to wrestle with.

Inshore Fisheries

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the best thing may be if the noble Lord would be prepared to come with me to Newcastle to see the vessel-monitoring system, which I have learned a great deal about since his Question was on the Order Paper. It is a digital service which enables us to target those areas, so that we know every vessel that is at sea within our waters. I have some very interesting statistics on enforcement by the Royal Navy and others. In addition to that, not only are there three offshore patrol vessels but a further five new River class offshore patrol vessels are currently being built. They will be used for, among other things, fisheries protection. However, as I said earlier, we will have to review what we need to ensure that.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that if we are to have sustainable fishing in the longer term, which obviously will need to be based on clear scientific evidence, there has to be some alignment and co-operation with neighbouring countries? Fish stocks cannot be managed unilaterally—fish shoals can sometimes move hundreds of miles. Indeed, our own fishermen sometimes fish from the north of Russia right down to southern Portugal. This cannot be resolved by a unilateral declaration. There have to be detailed discussions because, as we know from the very good Brexit fisheries report produced by your Lordships’ House, there is an incredibly complicated set of agreements in place. I hope the Minister will take the message back to the Secretary of State that there is no point in just making a unilateral declaration on this; there have to be thoughtful, detailed discussions on the future.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I agree with a lot of what the noble Baroness says. We need to base our decisions on science. We have a responsibility under international law to have sustainable fish stocks, and I am pleased that in this country we have had some considerable successes in getting sustainable yields. The basis of this is that we have given two years’ notice that we intend to leave the London fisheries convention, which is necessary under legal advice. We now need to negotiate with our partners and friends in Europe so that, as I say, we have a sustainable fishing industry. Also, for the first time we will have the ability to decide who fishes in our waters.

Agriculture: Foreign Workers

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this produce is very vulnerable and the skills in picking fruit are therefore important—it is very perishable. There is, of course, skill in ensuring that we get our soft fruit in safely. We are now self-sufficient in strawberries for much of the year, which are a wonderful product, and there are many whom we rely on in the workforce from the European Union.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, apart from some of the emerging practical problems that have already been raised today on seasonal workers, and despite what the Minister has said, is the real issue not the fact that these EU workers no longer feel welcome here? Is it not the case that this is a problem entirely of the Government’s making? They have sought to make these workers bargaining chips in the EU negotiations and have said nothing publicly about the value they bring to our economy and wider society. It is no wonder if fruit growers and so on are reporting that people who have come time and again, year after year, now say they will no longer come. They do not feel welcome here.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I refer the noble Baroness to what I just said, which was that 171,000 more people from the EU have come to work here than there were a year ago—171,000. That does not suggest to me a climate in which people feel unhappy or unwelcome. They are very welcome and are vital in this industry and in others where they work. I honestly do not think that what she is saying is borne out by the labour market statistics. It is very important in this climate as well to remember that saying people are unwelcome can often engender the sorts of comments that I know all of your Lordships would say are reprehensible and undesirable. We need to create a climate in which this country sees the value of people coming here and working here, often doing jobs that some of our own people have, in recent times, not sought to do. They are very important to us.