Legislative Reform (Constitution of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) Order 2018

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trees (CB)]

First, I should declare my close association with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons as a former council member and former president, and I am still proud to be a registered member of the college, albeit non-practising.

Unlike the medical royal colleges, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has a regulatory as well as a professional responsibility, and that needs to be borne in mind when considering the size and composition of its council. We also all need to understand that it is not a representative body for the veterinary profession—that is the role of the British Veterinary Association. The RCVS’s duty is to protect animal health and welfare and the public interest by ensuring optimum standards in education, veterinary practice and professional conduct. Those key regulatory powers, as we have heard, are enshrined in the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966, which, incidentally, by virtue of that fact, is one of the most important measures we have in safeguarding animal welfare.

Given that there has been little government desire since 1966 to produce primary legislation, the college has initiated—with stimulus from other reports, it has to be admitted—a number of progressive reforms over the intervening years: for example, the whole development of the veterinary nursing profession, with, now, a register, accredited education, CPD and a disciplinary procedure. The most significant recent change with respect to veterinary surgeons was the legislative reform order of 2013, which completely separated the professional conduct activities of the preliminary investigation committee and the disciplinary committee from the council of the royal college, so that now, nobody from the council sits on those committees. Through that LRO, those committees have statutory lay membership, in line with current regulatory practices. Your Lordships may be interested to know that, even more recently, an alternative resolution dispute system has been introduced, to which the public have recourse for complaints that do not involve professional misconduct.

Thus, the LRO before us is but the latest in a whole series of progressive reforms, and I am sure it will not be the last. It is concerned, as the Minister has explained, partly with improving the operational efficiency of the RCVS council, but importantly it also specifies the formal inclusion of lay persons on the council—something which, it must be admitted, has been happening for some years, but by informal arrangement. Also importantly, it provides for the statutory inclusion of veterinary nurses. Although the new council will be smaller, these changes will increase the relative representation of lay persons on it from about 14% at the minute to 25%. The changes will improve the working efficiency of the council and are in line with modern governance practice in terms of lay membership. But it is also important to say that they will provide for a council of sufficient size to populate the various technical committees, reflecting the unique role of the royal college as one that regulates.

These measures, as has been said, have the full support of the current council. I suggest that they are uncontroversial—although I am sure that the college will take good cognisance of the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter—and they are very much to the public good. They are welcome, and I fully support this LRO.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the background to the order with such clarity. I also found helpful the explanatory document which gives the background.

However, I was concerned to read that no impact assessment had been prepared, with the reason given that there was no significant impact on the private, voluntary or public sectors. I would hope that the Minister will acknowledge—as I think he did—that vets have a significant impact on public health: for example, in relation to food standards, the breeding and feeding of livestock, research facilities and drug companies. Therefore, the regulation of veterinary practice has a wider public interest. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Having said that, in line with all noble Lords who have spoken we support the proposals and regard them as a helpful step in modernising the functions of the RCVS. Its aspiration to be a first-rate regulator has to be welcomed. By any stretch, as noble Lords have said, a council of 42 people is unwieldy, and that results, as appears to be the case here, in split responsibilities between the council and operational board, which raises concerns about where the ultimate responsibility lies. We also welcome the steps to broaden expertise on the council by adding lay members and veterinary nurses to the representation.

Having said that, I have a few questions for the Minister. First, the current RCVS council is supported by a system of statutory committees, standing committees, sub-committees and working parties. It also has, as I just said, an operational board which oversees college management, governance and the management of resources. Can the Minister clarify how the proposed changes to the size of the council might impact on the delegation of duties to the operational board and those committees? How will that work with a council half the size of the original, and is he confident that the existing workload can be covered by a much smaller council?

Secondly, given the regulatory and animal welfare roles of the RCVS, this is an instance where size and composition could matter. Could the Minister therefore clarify what consideration has been given to the potential loss of expertise that will result from the proposed changes? What procedures are in place to ensure that appropriate skill sets and expertise are maintained? In particular, the LRO proposes a big reduction in the number of members appointed by veterinary schools. At a time when our scientific understanding of animal disease and public impact is moving at a fast rate, how will the council maintain and stay abreast of scientific developments that affect its public reputation and trust? The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, touched upon this issue but it goes wider, as it is about the fast-moving science and being up to date and aware of all that.

Finally, I have seen in the press that the posts for the lay members are already being advertised, with applications to be sent to the royal college. Does the Minister agree that it is important that these appointments are carried out with transparency and overseen by an independent body? Can he explain how it is intended that these appointments are made, and how we are to have trust that genuine lay member independence will be achieved if the royal college is to be involved in those appointments?

I very much look forward to the Minister’s response to those questions, but overall I echo the comments made by other noble Lords as we agree with the proposals.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and for the warm welcome for these proposals, which have been the result of the department working in consultation with the royal college to make sure that we get this right and that it serves the purpose of achieving a balance.

I would like to take head-on what the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to when they mentioned the reduction of the veterinary surgeon element of the council. There was a concern that there may be a loss of expertise and experience if that came about. In a sense, it is precisely one of the reasons for this order. We all wanted to ensure that there was this range. We recognise what the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said about the range of vets in practice, in corporate situations and in the state veterinary service, and the range of the duties of that profession. It is in effect why, in taking into account a number of representations, specifically on these points, the Government and the RCVS settled on a council that actually will be bigger than that recommended by the First Rate Regulator initiative. It is precisely a recognition that we wanted there to continue to be a range of expertise. We and the college thought that this would ensure that the necessary expertise was there.

There is always a balance to be achieved when we try to get things right, and there was also the existing concern about the council’s efficiency. My noble friend Lady Byford could not have chimed in more helpfully with the experience that she brings to these matters—the experience and knowledge of the unwieldiness of the current arrangement and the desire of the college to have good governance and better regulation, as well as recognising the vital role that the college plays. That is why we have the numbers to ensure precisely that there is this experience on the council.

A number of points were raised. It is right that we send a message to the college. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke about new blood and the length of service dynamic. Yes, it is very important to the profession that innovative thinking and new knowledge are always available to the council, which is why the veterinary schools composition on the council is so essential. But it is also important that younger vets come on so that there is a diversity in the council.

I should have declared this before, but it is not really a declaratory interest. Two members of my family are members of this profession, so I get a considerable amount of background information, and one thing that is really important is how every practice relies on the professionalism of the veterinary nurses as well as the veterinary surgeons. In the blend of what this council will have, the experience of two members of the veterinary nursing profession coming on to the council will make a significant difference to the way in which the council can think about these things.

I am going to dance on a pin, as it were, with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about the no impact assessment. The proposed changes address the efficiency and accountability of decision-making by the council, but do not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves. They will therefore not have any impact on businesses or charities. That may be something that the noble Baroness and I reflected on when we met. But that is the precise reason why there was no impact assessment. The order does not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked a number of other questions. She mentioned university vet schools. She is absolutely right that it is vital that vet schools provide expertise in certain areas for the council. All the vet schools are content with the proposal for collective representation in place of individual allocations. The current arrangements would lead to a continued increase in the size of the council, as any new vet school would automatically be allocated two places on the council. There is a reflection that we probably should be training more vets in this country; I know that some universities are thinking of opening a veterinary school. This new arrangement also addresses the fact that potentially, if many more veterinary schools were to open, we would automatically add a further two to the council, which would be unhelpful to good governance and to the profession.

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The noble Lord also referred to progressive reform and the increase in lay persons. I generally take on board your Lordships’ contributions that this will be helpful to the profession. I am most grateful for your Lordships’ support, but the bulk of the work goes to the veterinary profession, the college and my officials, who have produced a piece of work that we can all be proud of.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I thank the Minister for a number of very helpful responses. However, he did not address the issue of the appointments of lay members, with the royal college seeming to be fully hands-on with that, and the need for more independent scrutiny of that process. I do not know whether he can answer that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The important thing about lay members is that they are independent of the profession. I will write to the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have participated so that I can give a little more detail on the mechanism for the appointment of lay members. Obviously, it must be done in a punctilious way, through all sorts of processes. This is a three-year transition and, subject to your Lordships’ consent, one of the reasons for the advertisements—I admit that it might be suggested that this is jumping the gun—is the strong desire in the profession to get on with this and begin the transition in July. If your Lordships and the other place did not consent, this would obviously be premature. There was a strong desire to start the process and not wait until 2019, but to get this transition to bring in immediately six lay members and then contract down over three years the number of veterinary surgeons and introduce the other membership I have outlined. That was precisely because this is work we need to get on with. I will write to the noble Baroness with the fullest detail.