European Union (Referendum) Bill Debate
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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European Union (Referendum) Bill
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The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
I remind your Lordships that, if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 2 to 7 by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
As some commentators have noted, I have tabled one or two amendments, and one or two are included in the first grouping. However, I say first of all that, like the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, I intend to be brief. This Bill is a disgrace; it is not fit for purpose. A senior official of the Law Society of Scotland told me that he had never seen such a badly drafted Bill. It has been hastily got together, and it shows. For example, it has none of the schedules necessary for such a major constitutional Bill. That is why it is only three pages long. We have been accused of having tabled lots of amendments for what is only a three-page Bill, but a normal constitutional Bill would have schedules outlining how the referendum would be conducted and the rules of the referendum. None of that is included in this Bill. It is a government Bill trying to patch over divisions in the Tory party and trying to outflank the UK Independence Party—which deserves to be outflanked, by the way.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
If the Bill is so bad and such a shambles, why did not the noble Lord’s colleagues in the House of Commons vote it down?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Presumably they thought that there was a greater intellect here to be able to examine it in more detail, with such people as the noble Lords, Lord Armstrong and Lord Kerr, and a whole range of people like that. I am sure that they will welcome all the suggestions from this House, as well as the wisdom that we are about to receive.
Lord Cormack (Con)
I am grateful, but the noble Lord knows only too well that the other place had neither the stamina to talk the Bill out nor the courage to go into the Lobbies in any numbers from either his party or the Liberal Democrats. All the Divisions had huge majorities, where the negative vote was derisory. He knows full well that the question asked by my noble friend Lord Forsyth comes to the heart of the matter. We are being used.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Maybe the noble Lord does not realise that those Divisions in the House of Commons were artificially constructed. The Conservatives put in the Tellers on both sides; they manufactured those Divisions deliberately.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Everyone knows that this is a Tory party Bill masquerading as a Private Member’s Bill. Today it is also a disgrace that we are discussing it because the coalition government Chief Whip, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has used her position, I think improperly, to put it ahead of all other Private Members’ Bills. There are 23 Private Members’ Bills waiting to be discussed—
Baroness Quin
My Lords, this is important because the Chief Whip said that she acted in accordance with the actions of previous Chief Whips. However, this situation is unprecedented as only one part of the Government is imposing business on us in this way. She is not acting in accordance with the actions of previous Chief Whips because she acting only as part of the Government and not the whole Government. That is a very big difference from what has happened before.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am grateful for those interesting interventions, which clarified quite a lot. As my noble friend Lady Quin rightly said, it is unprecedented for a Tory Chief Whip to use her position as a government Whip to put Tory party Bills high up the agenda. Perhaps she can give me an example of where a particular Private Member’s Bill has been given precedence over every other Private Member’s Bill. All the others have been kicked to the sidelines. I understand that she is making promises to promoters of Private Members’ Bills that their Bills will be given priority next year because they have been kicked out in the current Session.
The other outrageous matter is that because of the procedure here and in the other place, and because this is a Private Member’s Bill, not a government Bill, we are told that we cannot discuss it in the detail that we should discuss it in and we cannot scrutinise it in the way that we should scrutinise it. An artificial deadline has been imposed on us that we have to finish it by a particular time. This is no way to treat a major constitutional issue.
That brings me to the first group of amendments. My amendments, like others, say that the key issue of the question on the ballot paper should be based on the impartial advice of the Electoral Commission. We have set up the Electoral Commission to give advice on these questions. The Scottish Government have accepted the Electoral Commission’s advice regarding the question in the Scottish referendum. This Government should do the same and accept the advice of the impartial Electoral Commission.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, who is today a proxy for the Government—that is what he is; he is a government stooge—that if he refuses to accept this amendment, it will be clear confirmation that this Bill is a party political ploy and not a serious attempt to legitimise and legislate for a fair and genuine referendum.
Lord Quirk (CB)
My Lords, I have put down my name to two of the amendments in this group but I shall be brief—pedantic, but brief. Our verb “to be” is highly irregular, drawing strands of form and meaning from four different roots. They are represented in today’s English by, for example, “is”, “are”, “was” and “be” itself. I put this list before the House because “be” is, as your Lordships know, always tinged with the future. Indeed, as your Lordships will also know, “be” is actually cognate with the word “future” itself. When somebody calls out, “Please remain seated”, we know that she accepts that we are all seated. By contrast, the injunction, “Please be seated”, acknowledges that most of us are not. So it was that when, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has just reminded us, the Electoral Commission was advising on this year’s referendum in Scotland, it did not suggest that Scotland should remain an independent country because, of course, it is not. Instead, it recommended the wording, “Should Scotland be an independent country?”. The Scottish Government sensibly accepted this advice.
When this same Electoral Commission advised the promoters of the Bill before us today, it saw, of course, that the boot was on the other foot. In this case, it favoured the wording, “Should the UK remain in the European Union?”, because we already are, and stoutly rejected the wording, “Should the UK be a member?” because this might imply to voters that we were not. It may seem absurd to suggest that, after 40 years, any British voter might not know that we were a member of the European Union. However, let us remember that we have a hostile press and that successive semi-hostile, or at least semi-detached, Governments have belittled, demonised or at any rate done their best to ignore the EU and its relevance to British lives. It is not just the EU itself, of course. Think how much better our school system would have been if Governments over the past 40 or 50 years had bothered to notice how much better they do things on the other side of the North Sea.
But back to the present: at Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington of Ribbleton, supplied telling examples of public ignorance of trans-Channel institutions. For example, she referred to people confusing the EU with the Council of Europe. She might well have added that since 2000 there has been an even more dangerous source of confusion—the existence of the eurozone. How many British voters faced with the question in this Bill might interpret it as asking, “Should the UK be a member of the eurozone?”.
It beggars belief that one with such a command of subtle nuance as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, could possibly be unaware of all this. But he is a busy man. Now that he most certainly has had dispelled for him any cloud of unknowing that has interposed, I have no doubt that he will be on his feet and, through grateful tears, hasten to accept these amendments.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and I go back a long way. We are of different parties and we come from different parts of Wales, but on this as on most things he speaks eminent sense. There is an elephant in the room, the elephant being the Scottish referendum. We do not know what the result of that referendum will be but, if it be for independence, it will clearly have profound implications for this Bill generally and for a number of facets of the Bill. Therefore, I am pleased to follow his wise words.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I, too, express my support for the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. The Bill as drafted has not taken account of the Scottish referendum in any way whatever. That is why there are other amendments in my name in relation to eligibility to vote for 16 and 17 year-olds and in relation to the count, and a number of other matters.
I take the opportunity to say now to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, because I did not want to interrupt his fine reply to the previous amendment, that at the same stage in the consideration of the Equality (Titles) Bill, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, nearly 90 amendments were tabled, and in exactly the same stage of the passage of the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to further reform the House of Lords, 160 amendments were tabled. Therefore, 80 amendments is not an excessive number, and it ill behoves him and others to criticise Members of the House of Lords for tabling amendments that seek to improve a very bad Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has done and I have done.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, this is a helpful amendment, and I have only one very brief comment to make. We have had a number of proposals coming through this and the other House over a period of time that have changed our unwritten constitution in quite significant ways. It is very difficult to know how they all mesh together, because they are almost never spoken of in terms of taking a helicopter view of the whole set of proposals. That probably leads towards the laws of unintended consequences on occasions because we do not have a holistic view. It would be incredibly hard before the Scottish referendum, allowing for one of the possible outcomes of that referendum, to make any intelligent decisions in this area. I do not think that we would be thanked by the people of Scotland, as it might very well be that they would feel that it took an element of their choice away from them, in the full sense of a choice about their future in Europe, in relation to the currency, and so on. It is a very sensible proposal, and I hope that the House will give it proper consideration.
Lord Roper (LD)
My Lords, Amendment 9 is included in the group we are discussing, along with Amendment 74, and is not part of the second group headed by Amendment 2 as it appears in the groupings list, because Amendment 2 was pre-empted by your Lordships’ decision on the previous amendment.
Amendment 9, together with Amendment 74, has the same effect as Amendment 2 would have done. As the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, said of the amendment he moved some time ago, this amendment in no way goes against the principle or the objectives of the Bill—nor does it have any effect on the date—it merely tries to ensure that if a referendum takes place, it will be more satisfactory.
The two amendments in this group in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, and the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Anderson, seek to ensure that effective impact assessments are undertaken of the effect of the United Kingdom ceasing to be a member of the European Union. Throughout our discussion on the previous amendment and on Second Reading, everyone was clear about the importance of the decision which the British people would be taking in such a referendum. If the British people are to take such a decision, they need to take it with the necessary knowledge before them. Therefore, Amendment 74 suggests that the Government should publish such information and lay it before Parliament.
However, unlike what is suggested in a subsequent amendment, the Government are not necessarily expected to prepare the reports on the impact assessment. They may ask other bodies to do that, such as the Office for Budget Responsibility or the National Institute of Economic and Social Research. We are anxious that objective information should be made available to the public so that serious discussion of the impact of the UK ceasing to be a member can take place.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I think that the noble Lord was referring to my Amendments 5, 6 and 7 in relation to the renegotiation, the balance of competences and the transfer of powers, where the Secretary of State will have to report, which we will come to later. I hope he is not saying that he thinks those are unnecessary, and that he is saying that the impact assessment would be in addition to the reports by the Secretary of State.
Lord Roper
My Lords, the noble Lord is right. We will come to his amendments with their new numbers, which I think are 42A and 43A. I was going to refer to them a little later—Amendments 5, 6 and 7, like my Amendment 2, having been pre-empted. Those amendments refer to reports being prepared by the Government, and the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, refers to an assessment being prepared by the Secretary of State.
Amendment 74 suggests that it is necessary to provide the electorate with information on four matters, the first being an assessment of the impact on the UK economy of the UK ceasing to be a member. I was encouraged to read in the press this morning of the speech which the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, Sir Nicholas Macpherson, made to the Mile End Group earlier this week, in which he pointed out that the Treasury would certainly provide information on what it considered to be the negative impact of the UK leaving the European Union. In recent weeks we have seen the information which bodies such as the British Bankers’ Association and other banks based in the United Kingdom have submitted to the Treasury as part of the balance of competences study. It is important that this information is brought together so that people know what the effect of our ceasing to be a member would be.
Secondly, we believe that a report ought to be produced showing the impact of the UK leaving the European Union on the rights of individuals within the United Kingdom. Individuals, our fellow citizens, at the moment have various rights as part of our membership of the European Union, including—as has been discussed recently—the right to free movement of labour, as well as other rights. Those, again, would be affected by our ceasing to be a member. It is important that people should be aware of the implications.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I will speak briefly to support the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Roper. I believe that the provisions of this pair of amendments are absolutely fundamental to holding any meaningful referendum. Unless the implications of a change—and, indeed, the implications of staying in—are spelt out quite clearly, how are the public to be in a position to make an informed judgment? If we believe in referenda—I indicated earlier that there are circumstances in which I do—it is absolutely essential that we have this sort of provision. We have had a number of referenda in Wales; the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred a moment ago to the referendum on opening or closing pubs on Sundays. There was also the 1979 referendum, which the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, will remember very well as he left me with some bloody noses on that occasion. There was one in 1997 and a subsequent one in 2011. In each, it was necessary to spell out the implications of what was taking place. As far as we in Wales are concerned, there would be far-reaching effects, on two sectors in particular.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the importance of the Japanese manufacturing sector in Wales and the excellent work that was undertaken by the Welsh Development Agency in attracting more than 50 Japanese companies to Wales. Companies in Japan and Wales have indicated their concern if their strategy of locating their manufacturing capacity in the UK in order to sell to the European market was to be undermined by a change of this sort. The implications of pulling out of the European Union certainly need to be spelt out in those terms. In Wales, we have one very significant manufacturer, Toyota, on Deeside. If anything was to undermine that, it would be a body blow. We also have British Aerospace on Deeside, which works very closely with European partners. There would be immensely damaging implications for the company and the 7,000 or 8,000 jobs in north-east Wales. That needs to be spelt out so voters in the area know.
The other sector that would be affected is the agricultural sector, where up to 80% of income is now related to activity on which the European Union has a bearing. My friends in rural Wales in the farming fraternity most certainly have great fears—those, too, need to be spelt out for residents in rural Wales who may not be farmers themselves but will need to know the effect on their community if the main industry in the area is undermined. For those reasons I support the amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I will say a very few words in support of the excellent amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Roper. First, I underline what my noble friend Lady Quin said at the start and what was repeated by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lord Radice. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, finds himself in new territory now, which I am sure he will welcome. The fact that one amendment has been passed means that he is free, at last, to exercise the discretion that I know he has. If I may say so modestly, I think that he would increase his stature greatly if he now exercised that discretion from time to time. It will not delay the Bill any further, undermine it in any way or create problems with the House of Commons—it is not going to create any problems. Knowing him well, admiring him and respecting him, and having had a number of conversations with him, I hope that he will see himself as free to accept this amendment and, perhaps, some later amendments. That would go a long way to legitimising his position, and that of the Bill.
I was very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, said that his amendment was complementary to those of mine that are now numbered as Amendments 42C, 42D and 42E, which relate to reports by the Secretary of State on the transfer of powers, the negotiations and the competencies. It is also complementary to the excellent amendment that my noble friend Lord Lipsey put forward and which I have had the pleasure of adding my name to, Amendment 69, on the public information office. That, too, would be complementary and helpful.
I have two substantial points to make. One is to compare this with the Scottish referendum. Those of us from Scotland are beginning to think that it has been going on for ever, and we still have a long way to go—but the one thing we cannot say in relation to the Scottish referendum is that we have not been provided with information. We have had assessment after assessment by each of the departments of the United Kingdom Government, and there are more to come; we have had the so-called White Paper, Scotland’s Future, from the Scottish Government; we have had the no campaign arguing its case, Better Together; we have had think-tanks galore; and there will be more over the next few months until 18 September. If and when it comes, this European Union referendum will be no less momentous than the Scottish referendum.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
I should advise the Committee that if Amendment 10 is agreed, I cannot call Amendments 12 to 15 by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I want to say a few words on the amendments in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Anderson and Lord Davies of Stamford. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, can hear me, although whether he wants to or not is another matter.
I, along with my colleagues, have tabled about 10 amendments in this group. Some commentators outside this House have said that this is a disgrace and really dreadful. I see some nodding across the House—I presume in agreement with those commentators. It is our right and privilege to put down amendments and we should consider them carefully. I tabled a large number on this issue so as to give various options for the date—that is all. Some other commentators outside have said that the amendments are completely contradictory because they give different dates, but that misunderstands the purpose of Committee stage. As I understand it, the Committee stage of a Bill is for examining various options, and I have put down options for before the general election, after the general election and, as it happens, at the general election.
Some people argue—I know that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, might do it from his own perspective—that there should be an “in or out” referendum as soon as possible. Some pro-Europeans also argue that—in other words, in order to clear up the matter for another generation, just as we supposedly did in 1975, let us have an “in or out” referendum. If we are going to do that—forget about the renegotiation; this is just about whether we think that the principle of the European Union is right—then the early dates we have suggested in Amendments 13 and 14 of 22 May 2014 and 15 May 2015 would be ideal. One is the date of the European election and the other is the date of the general election. If you wanted to carry out a referendum, you could do it on the same day as either the European election or the general election. That would be quite possible, and those dates are just put forward as options for consideration.
The other option is 2020. Again, if you want to have a proper, thorough and widespread renegotiation, then the more time you have to do it, the better. As others said earlier, we still do not know exactly what the Prime Minister wants to renegotiate. When he was interviewed on the Andrew Marr programme, he did not seem to know which areas he wanted to renegotiate. We do not have the details of all the areas, so perhaps more time is necessary.
Amendments 16 to 20 would provide the opportunity for Ministers to decide the date depending on the outcome of the renegotiation. They would provide sensible flexibility in relation to the decision on the date and that might be better. Amendment 21 would insert,
“after consultation with the First Ministers of the devolved administrations”.
A journalist writing for the Daily Telegraph said that that would give Alex Salmond a veto.
As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, knows, I am the last person—perhaps the second last person; he is the last person—who would want to give Alex Salmond a veto on anything at all. It does not provide a veto: it is just a consultation with the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about the date.
The noble Baroness opposite agreed with my critics but I hope she will agree with me now that these amendments provide the options for consideration by this Committee, which is its purpose. No doubt when we get to Report we will have firmed up the dates and will be clearer of what the desirable date should be.
Lord Wigley
On the point of consultation with the First Minister of Wales, for example, will he bear it in mind that in the period 2014-20 we are in receipt of structural funds? If we pull out half way through that period there will be considerable uncertainty and therefore his input would be significant.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, because that is exactly the kind of thing that the First Ministers of the devolved Administrations could put into the debate. It is not a veto. It simply provides an opportunity for them to say, “Look, if you do it on this particular date it is going to be unhelpful and difficult because of certain circumstances”. For example, we are having the Commonwealth Games in Scotland and there may be other events in the future during which it would be undesirable to have a referendum, or before or after. The amendment will give the devolved Administrations the opportunity to consult.
This group of amendments provides the opportunity for Euroenthusiasts to have an early date if they want to settle matters once and for all; equally Eurosceptics or Europhobes will have the same opportunity—and here is a Europhobe just to prove it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, from listening to the noble Lord it is obvious that the purpose of his amendments is to give him an opportunity to make a long speech. For example, Amendment 13 suggests that we should have the referendum on 22 May of this year. The Bill will have hardly received Royal Assent. How can that possibly be a realistic expectation? This is a good old-fashioned filibuster for which he is famous.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
That is an absolute calumny. [Interruption.] The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, is known for his acerbity on these matters. I have been going for six minutes; when did we last take six minutes on a filibuster? In my main speech earlier in the day I was less than 10 minutes whereas the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, rambled on for nearly 30 minutes. He was the one doing the filibustering, not me.
Lord Dobbs
At the risk of wasting any more time, dare I suggest that it is not a filibuster but a “Milibuster”, something designed by the Labour Party to cause so much delay and confusion that we will all have forgotten where we started from?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has read the people’s tweets. They coined the word “Milibuster" and he is using it. The interesting, remarkable and ironic thing is that if the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Dobbs, had not intervened, I would have sat down two minutes ago.
“(2) The Electoral Commission shall publish a report setting out its recommendations for the terms of the referendum, including proposing a suitable question and date.
(3) Before the referendum can take place, the Electoral Commission’s recommendations shall be subject to a vote in both Houses of Parliament.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I was expecting to be called for Amendment 12. However, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has a book on his knee, and if the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, and the noble Countess, Lady Mar, were here they would also refer to the Companion, which says that on a Friday this House normally rises at 3 pm. Since we are constantly asked by those on the other side—the noble Lords, Lord Trefgarne and Lord Geddes, and others, and by the Government—to abide by the Companion and not to walk in front of certain parts of the House or get up and about when a Motion is being called, surely we should abide by this part of the Companion as well. I wonder what is going to happen. Are we not going to pay any attention to the Companion whatever?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I think that the Lord Speaker asked about Amendment 11. That was taken along with Amendment 1 and we have already debated it.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am really being very co-operative today. Amendment 12 is not moved either.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, People’s Pledge and all the other critics are keeping a note of this: I shall not be moving this or the following amendments.
“( ) If the turnout for the referendum is less than 25 per cent of those eligible to vote, the referendum shall be considered invalid.”
Lord Higgins
My Lords, I think that is correct. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, should now move Amendment 33.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, there is a problem here. I am ready to move Amendment 40, but no explanation has been given to my noble friends Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley on why their amendments have been pre-empted. With respect, either the Chairman, the Clerk, the Government or the mover of the Motion—there is an option; all four of them—should let the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley, know why their amendments have been pre-empted. If they have, I am ready to move Amendment 40. If they have not, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is ready to move Amendment 33.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, it may be helpful if I read from the brief, which suggests that, if Amendment 28 is agreed to, we cannot call Amendments 31 to 39 inclusive because of pre-emption. That is the reason why we are moving to Amendment 40.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, the point, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is this: he is seeking to amend a part of the Bill which no longer exists. With great respect, I do not think he can do that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
All I said earlier, with respect, was that I was ready to move Amendment 40, but if the Whip wants to move the adjournment, I shall give way to him. I see that he is indicating dissent, so we have 35 minutes left.
Amendments 40, 41 and 47, and Amendment 49, which is in the name of my noble friend Lady Quin, are all grouped. Again to be as helpful as possible to the House, I shall deal with all of them together. Amendment 40 states:
“If the turnout for the referendum is less than 25 per cent”—
all these amendments deal with the legitimacy of the referendum—
“the referendum shall be considered invalid”.
Where one sets the percentage is open for discussion, but I should have thought that there is no doubt whatever that if the turnout is less than 25% the referendum should be invalid.
Amendment 41 is somewhat different, in that it sets a higher threshold in two ways. It states that the Secretary of State shall,
“lay before Parliament the draft of an order for the repeal of this Act”,
if two conditions are not met—if less than half the votes have been yes, or if the turnout is less than 40% of those registered to vote. A similar provision was included in the first Scottish referendum through an amendment proposed by the then Member of Parliament, George Cunningham, known as the Cunningham amendment. So there are two thresholds in order for the referendum to be successful. First, it has to get half plus one of those who vote—that is obvious—and the other is that 40% of those eligible to vote, those people on the register, would have to have voted. If the referendum does not pass both thresholds, it should not pass.
The third amendment in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley, deals with each part of the United Kingdom, and states:
“The referendum may not result”—
in other words, it will not be legitimate or take effect—
“unless there is … a simple majority and”,
again,
“40 per cent of those registered to vote in every component part of the United Kingdom in which the count is taken separately”.
I have a later amendment that states that the count should be held separately in each of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Let me put the reasoning behind those requirements in turn. The result of any referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU must, in order to maintain legitimacy, have the backing of all four nations of the United Kingdom, not just the United Kingdom as a whole. Given the momentous nature of such a referendum, I fear that national discrepancies in outlook may cast doubt on the final outcome. I therefore believe that an issue of such importance deserves the legitimacy bestowed upon it by the requirement of national electoral consensus.
Baroness Quin
My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments standing in my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord Roper, Lord Bowness and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. We have tabled an amendment that says that the referendum may not result in the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union unless at least half of those eligible to vote have voted. This is very much a probing amendment at this stage, given that there are various ideas around this Chamber about thresholds or indeed whether any threshold should exist at all. Certainly, looking at the history of debates on referendums in both Houses over many years, I do not think that there has ever been a proposal for a referendum without someone putting forward the notion of some kind of threshold.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am really sorry to interrupt, having just spoken. I should have said— and I forgot because of all the other things going on with the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson —that my amendments are probing amendments as well.
Baroness Quin
I am grateful to my noble friend for clarifying that. It would be good to look before Report at the different views expressed on thresholds to see how the matter might be taken forward at a later stage, if indeed there is a feeling that it ought to be pursued.
Quite understandably in all the various debates about thresholds the concern has been that on issues of major importance people feel uncomfortable if the vote is decided by a very tiny margin on a very low turnout. That, of course, explains why there have been so many initiatives in the past about having thresholds in such legislation. Looking through the history of this I cannot discern any particular party affiliation to any one notion about any particular threshold. Looking at the amendments tabled in the past on referendums legislation, some have been tabled by Conservative Members in the other place, some by Labour Members and some by Liberal Democrat Members and, as I say, these issues have come up on practically all issues where a referendum has been proposed. In a way, we need to bear all this in mind when deciding how to move forward.
I was helped in my own thoughts about it by an excellent research note prepared by the House of Commons on thresholds in referendums, which gives a lot of food for thought. It could be food for thought that we ourselves could have before Report. I should say too that how we are looking at this issue is also very much part and parcel of political debate about referendums in other countries. The very good research note from the House of Commons looks at countries around the world—not only in the European Union but in Australia, for example, and in non-EU member states such as Switzerland—and it looks at the various requirements in those countries for thresholds in referendums.
At this stage, this is very much an opinion-gathering exercise in order that I and my fellow signatories may decide how we might pursue this issue later in our proceedings.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
Following up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, I am sure that the noble Lord has taken advice and that what he said is correct. But how many of his fellow citizens are going to understand that? If you read the daily press, you would believe that they think that the Bill is going to provide for a mandatory referendum. They think that the outcome of the Bill will be binding on the Government and on Parliament. If that is not the case, the noble Lord should consider very carefully—in the interests, quite rightly, of this being clear and transparent, and so that people know what they are letting themselves in for beforehand and what they are getting afterwards—whether that needs to be made clear in the Bill in some way or another, whether it is by the tense of the verbs used or something like that. Frankly, I do not believe that we can just sail through this process on the advice that he has been given and that the rest of our countrymen will understand that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, with respect, the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Dobbs, seem to have overlooked the fact that we are about to move on to Amendment 42A, which deals with precisely this point.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, I believe that the Bill is phrased in the traditional and correct way. Of course, there may be other views and I will listen to those very carefully. It is certainly my understanding that, if the Bill goes through, Parliament will have the final say. That is a very important safety valve and deals with many of the issues and thresholds which we have, quite rightly and sensibly, discussed. I believe these amendments to be unnecessary for that reason. Although the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has sent along many of these buses, I do not think it is necessary to climb on any of them and hope he would be so kind as to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I did say that they were probing amendments and, in the light of what the noble Lord has said, I unhesitatingly agree to withdraw this one.
“( ) Any referendum held under subsection (1) shall be consultative.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Amendment 42A puts in the word “consultative”. This is the point I made earlier. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, said that it is implicit in the Bill; this would make it explicit. Why do I want to do that? All referenda that we have had in Britain have been, by nature, consultative, and Parliament has chosen to comply with the will of the people as expressed through referenda. In other countries, such as Italy, France and Turkey, legislative assemblies have no choice but to accept them as binding referenda. Because it happens in other countries, some people have come round to the view that referenda can be binding. There is a fairly widespread—although incorrect—feeling that they are binding. If referenda are consultative by constitutional design, Parliament will surely, as always, go along with the choice of the majority in any future referendum. However, I want to guard against the possibility of a disputed result, numerous varieties of which may call for a second referendum.
For example, there might be a low turnout or perhaps, as with the AV referendum, there might some allegations of dirty tactics. Equally there might be an incredibly close result. As my noble friend Lord Anderson said, it was not close in 1975, it was a very clear result, but a referendum might be incredibly close, by one or two percentage points. In all those scenarios, a rerun may be the only way to definitely resolve the question. However, a rerun may also frustrate and alienate many voters who have assumed that referenda are binding. In order to avoid any feelings of betrayal or anger, we must make clear that it is a consultative referendum and that Parliament is sovereign at the end of the day and could, if it wished, ignore or repeal a referendum, should circumstances demand it.
The 1979 referendum was mentioned earlier. It would have been open to the Government, if they had been a Labour Government after 1979, to accept the result of the referendum, notwithstanding the 40% rule. However, because they were a Conservative Government, they decided to abandon devolution.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, the noble Lord will acknowledge that it was an amendment tabled by a Labour Member of Parliament, George Cunningham, that led to the threshold.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Indeed. Perhaps the noble Lord was out having his tea earlier when I said precisely that in a previous speech.
The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has said that trust in politics and politicians is very low. Therefore, we must not allow the fact that it is a consultative referendum to remain unclear; otherwise, what he said earlier will apply a fortiori—we will be deceiving the people. The people deserve not only a say, which is their democratic right—I hope that the people’s choice organisation is listening to me—but full disclosure. I hope that we will therefore clarify the situation and put in the word “consultative”.
We have already had two amendments agreed. This would clarify things. It is a very simple thing, putting in just one word. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, that he should not feel inhibited by the procession of Tory Whips I have seen whispering in his ear. He should have the courage to say, for once, “That is a good amendment even though it is proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, so I will accept it”. I hope he will.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, I am rather heartened by the exchanges we have had in the past few minutes. I sat through the whole of the Second Reading debate. I did not take part because it seemed that everyone would say everything that needed to be said—a great many times over. Strangely enough, as far as I can recall, and I was here for almost the entire proceedings, no one raised this issue, which is the most important amendment on the Marshalled List.
Throughout my 33 years in the other place, I always told my constituents very strongly that I supported the view of Edmund Burke that Members of Parliament were representatives not delegates. I explained that, often at great length. Whether this explains why my majority over the period fell from 32,500 to less than 18,000, I am not sure. But I believe they accepted that even if I had had a machine that would tell me exactly the opinion in my constituency, I would not feel it right or necessary to take that as decisive. I strongly believed that one would take the views of one’s constituents into account every Friday evening and by correspondence and so on, but at the end of the day a Member of Parliament has to take into account all the other representations he has received, all the research he has done and so on, and make up his mind on the basis of that.
I have always been totally opposed to the idea of a referendum that was mandatory. I used to be totally opposed to referendums in all shapes or forms. I have come round slightly from that view, but I certainly maintain the view that I have just expressed. It would be appalling for us to agree with a referendum which would then impose on the House of Commons a particular decision where it had not been able to take the action that I believe is a fundamental feature of our democratic system in this country.
I very much welcome the noble Lord’s amendment. It is important that it is made clear. I equally welcome my noble friend the proposer of the Bill’s view that it is anyway covered by convention. But I entirely agree with those who have said that it needs to be in the Bill. Therefore, I hope very much that my noble friend whose Bill it is, in responding to this debate, will make it absolutely clear that he accepts this amendment, and then we will know where we stand; otherwise, there is a grave danger that there will be uncertainty about this, which will cause great confusion in the future.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, would it not be extraordinary if we had a referendum on whether we should break up the United Kingdom—which is, as I understand it, a binding referendum, not a consultative one—but did something completely different in respect of our membership of the European Union? Why would there be one rule for deciding the composition of the United Kingdom—
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
On what basis does the noble Lord say that the Scottish referendum is binding? My own understanding is that because the Prime Minister has signed the Edinburgh agreement, he has said that he will implement it. However, that does not mean that it is necessarily binding on Parliament. It is still technically a consultative referendum. If there were a yes vote, before it could be implemented there would have to be legislation through this Parliament to do so.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Of course there would have to be legislation through Parliament. The noble Lord is normally very careful in his words but I suggest that he should be careful about what he says here. If he gave the impression in Scotland that the results of the referendum would not be absolutely binding when the Prime Minister has called for a clear question and decision which would be a one-off, he would get into difficulty. This would not be the first time I had rescued him.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am grateful; it is a technicality, but because the Government have said that they will accept the result of the referendum, it is de facto binding, if not de jure.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I do not want to detain the House, but the position is quite clear in Scotland. If the Scots vote to leave the United Kingdom, that is that and the Government will get on with it, whoever the Government are, because that has been the clear understanding. We very much hope that that will not happen. It would be extraordinary to amend my noble friend’s Bill to say that it is only consultative, because those people who want to have their say will say, “Why is it one rule for the Scots and another for the rest of the United Kingdom?”. The noble Lord is on very dangerous ground.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, would it help us if I made this suggestion? I agree with the passion that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, puts forward on this and with so many comments that have been made by my noble friends. If it is consultative, it is perhaps up to me to find a way to make sure that it is unambiguously consultative. If the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will allow me to engage in some conversation with him at a little later date, I will see what I can do. Certainly, my heart is entirely in line with his on this issue and on that basis, I beg him to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
On that very helpful basis—this deadline is working well, as my noble friend Lord Kinnock said earlier on—I very much agree to withdraw it.
“( ) A referendum under subsection (1) shall only be held if 1 million members of the electorate submit a petition to Parliament to that effect.”
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Andrews) (Lab)
My Lords, I should point out that this amendment was in a previous group. Amendments 42B and 42C to 42E have been grouped previously and should have been debated.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
Yes, Amendment 42B was grouped with the fourth group, with Amendment 4, and Amendments 42C to 42E were grouped in the fifth group.
“( ) In Wales, a Welsh version of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers; in Northern Ireland, an Irish and an Ulster Scots version of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers; and in Scotland, a Scots Gaelic version of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
We are getting near the end; this is wonderful. This amendment relates to language. In areas of the United Kingdom where other languages are spoken, surely it is right that the question should be in that language as well. It is incontrovertible that in Wales the question should be in Welsh. I also absolutely agree, and I am sure that my noble friends from north of the border would agree, that in the parts of Scotland where Gaelic is spoken it should also be in Gaelic. That means that there would be no doubt for those who are Welsh speakers or native Gaelic speakers, and they would know exactly what the question was. I do not think that there is any difficulty and I hope that some agreement could be reached on that.
I had tabled some amendments in relation to Cornish and Doric, which got some commentators a wee bit annoyed. If I can be permitted to speak a wee bit in Doric, and say what my granny would have said to them: “Dinna fash yersel’, ye daft wee loonies and quinies”. Not many people will understand that but one or two Scots do. In other words, “Don’t get bothered, young men and women”. It was just to enable discussion to take place but I withdrew those amendments just to keep those daft wee loonies and quinies happy. However, as far as Gaelic and Welsh are concerned the arguments are incontrovertible.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, my name is appended to this amendment and Amendment 45, which is grouped with it, stands in my name and makes express provision for the wording that would be put to the people of Wales in the Welsh language to be in the Bill. I do not need to tell noble Lords that the Welsh language has had official status in Wales for two or three years now and that it would therefore be expected that any such provisions would be in both languages. However, as the legislation enacting this comes from Westminster, we feel that if the English version is on the face of the Bill, the Welsh version should be as well. The translation I have of it here is one that I checked out with a person who had been translating for the National Assembly. It is in order as far as that is concerned, but it may need to be checked.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for that brief but culturally colourful debate. I wonder what my Welsh great-great-great-grandfather, who was a coal higgler, would have felt about what we are saying here today. Actually, he would have been astonished, because in those days his language would not have been given any consideration. I wish to confirm that it is absolutely not the intention in this Bill to treat Wales in anything like an inferior or secondary fashion. As my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale pointed out, Clause 1(5) makes provisions for a question in Welsh, and other provisions very clearly state that the job of making sure that the ballot paper is fair and valid is down to the Electoral Commission.
On that basis, and given the time that we are here, I entirely endorse the spirit of this amendment, but I do not think that it is necessary. I really think that the Bill already has enough provision to satisfy the main requirements, which are, of course, about Welsh, rather than Doric or the other languages that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has been talking about recently. As it relates to Wales, the Bill has enough in it to satisfy all those legitimate demands. On that basis, I ask him, particularly because of the late hour, to accept my apologies for a short summation and to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am not sure that the Bill does actually do what the noble Lord says. It is a very skeletal Bill, as I said at the beginning of the debate this morning. It is a Bill done for a purpose. However, we have time between now and Report to have a look at the questions in relation to Gaelic and Welsh. I hope that that will be done. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The referendum shall also be held in Gibraltar.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My noble friend Lady Quin has asked me not to move the amendment and to wish all noble Lords, on her behalf, a very good weekend—something with which I completely concur.