12:30 - Division on Amendment 1 - Ayes: 245 / Noes: 158 - Amendment 1 agreed.
14:02 - Division on Amendment 9 - Ayes: 183 / Noes: 157 - Amendment 9 agreed.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I am not sidestepping the question. The number of times that noble Lords on all sides of the House have said that the affairs of the House of Commons are determined by the House of Commons, and that we are not the right people to try to do it, is a statement about the proper constitutional relationship that we have with them. That is not a trivial point; I would not presume to do that with the elected House.
I wanted to say that the pressures to act precipitately and move repeatedly, as I think Mr Cameron has, are not the right way. We will have to live with this Bill and it had better be the right Bill. I believe that this change will give it at least a chance of being the right Bill.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, the House has now been sitting for more than two hours and I will therefore try to deal with the amendments in this group with some general summing-up statements. A number of issues were raised today about the question in the Bill, and whether it is one which the public will understand and which will allow the people to have a say—an opportunity to decide and to reconnect with politics, as my noble friend Lord Phillips said.
Lord Lipsey
Before the Minister proceeds to address the amendments, will she please inform the House whether she is speaking as a government Minister or a spokesman for the Conservative Party—or in what other capacity she is addressing us?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, it is as spokesman for the Conservative Party. The Bill’s wording of the question—
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, this is a Private Member’s Bill and in the usual circumstances it is normal for the Minister to give just a general view. It is not for the noble Baroness to give the Conservative Party’s view on each of the amendments. That would be entirely improper, in my view.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I was not proposing to give the Conservative view on each of the amendments. I was going to make some general points. The Bill’s wording of the question is, I submit, fair and clear. It is the right question to put to the British people.
Lord Lea of Crondall
We have been going for more than two hours, as the Minister said, yet in one sentence she has just said that she will not respond to the point about why the question is the wrong one and why the Electoral Commission’s is the right one. How is that, unless there is no answer to the question—in which case she should accept the amendment? What is the justification for not accepting the question put by the Electoral Commission? That has not been answered from those Benches.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, clearly the House wants to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, so in those circumstances I will simply finish by saying that the Electoral Commission’s key finding was that the question in the Bill did not lead voters to favour one answer or the other. Its concern was that some voters who do not know whether we are currently in the EU would be confused. However, we feel that following a full referendum campaign, the number of people this would affect would either be very few or none.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am terribly sorry, as I know that the noble Baroness has a job to do, but when she says things like, “We believe”, that is extremely difficult. I know that the noble Baroness is in a difficult position. I do not know whether she is there as a government Minister or as a Conservative, but great care has to be taken.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, the Bill is about the British people having their say on the UK’s membership of the EU. That is what they want to decide upon and this is a simple binary choice: in or out. I will leave the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, to respond.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, on this side of the House, we regard this as a significant amendment. Given that the House has decided by an overwhelming majority that the Bill is amendable, we very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, will consider it favourably. It is a serious attempt on our side to improve the referendum proposal and make an independent impact assessment a vital condition before a referendum can properly proceed. We want rational, independent consideration of the costs and benefits of our EU membership and of the alternatives to it. The amendment is, we hope, a way to facilitate that rational consideration of the issues at stake.
Why is it important to look at alternatives? Those of us who have spent a lot of our lives in politics know that opinion polls do not always give a very accurate reading of what is likely to happen at a general election. You can often be miles ahead, but the result at a general election can be very different. Why is that? It is a point of key relevance to the Europe debate. It is because, in the mid-term of any Government, people are simply thinking about what they think of the Government. It is only when they get to the election that they start thinking about it as a choice between the Government of the day and the Opposition. If we are to have a sensible debate about the European Union, it is vital that people do not just see it as expressing an opinion in a poll in a TV reality show about what they think of Brussels, the Commission, the European Parliament and all the rest, where we know what the result would be, but that they think about what are the alternatives to our present EU membership. They need to be explored independently and objectively.
A recent attempt to do this was in the CBI’s report, Our Global Future. That is on the economics. The CBI came to the conclusion that no alternative option to full EU membership can combine all the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs. I shall not risk being accused of wasting the House’s time by reading out the report, but it went through in meticulous detail all the different options, such as the so-called WTO option, becoming a member of the EEA, the Swiss option, or having some kind of free trade agreement with the European Union. It went through all the options. Those options need to be explored properly. That was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, was driving at. We cannot have a sensible discussion in a referendum on our EU membership without the Government saying what they would do if the people voted to come out, because it is only in those circumstances that people can make a proper choice. That is one of the reasons why we support this.
It is important to emphasise that this is not only a matter of economic and social costs and benefits. It is also about the rights of citizens, particularly our citizens living presently in other member states of the European Union, and how a withdrawal would affect their position. It is also about our security. The present Government have just been through a huge exercise on the JHA opt-out and have decided that it is essential to Britain’s security that we opt in to certain of these measures. They know that if we were not part of those measures, senior figures in the police force and in the intelligence services would have very serious doubts about government policy. We need to look at the whole range of issues to do with our EU membership.
This has to be done objectively and properly. If we are to have a fair debate, that is absolutely essential. We all know that large sections of the press are going to argue for Britain to withdraw. There is no fairness in the British press on this issue, where you have the Mail, the Express and the Sun, and to a lesser extent the Telegraph and the Times, united in their view against membership of the European Union. However, we also have a lot of misinformation now in social media. If we believe in democracy, it is the proper duty of the Government to ensure that the public are properly informed of all the options through a proper, independent analysis.
As my noble friends Lord Kinnock and Lord Giddens said in the earlier discussion, whether we are in the European Union or not is a fundamental choice for the future of this country. The debate about it must not be treated as some way of papering over the cracks in one of our political parties. It has to be treated as one of the most fundamental decisions that, in our lifetimes, we will ever take.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, perhaps I may briefly refer back to what I said at Second Reading. I said that the Bill was not about being pro-European or anti-European but about being pro-democracy. The noble Lord raised a number of issues about the people being informed and I agree with him. One of the positions that the Government have taken in relation to the balance of competences review has been on having an independent review of each individual area, where organisations and individuals are given the opportunity to give evidence, and for those reports to be presented in an independent way so that people can see where the European Union helps and where it hinders.
Such a referendum will generate a huge amount of interest and a great deal of campaigning. I think of my own experience of campaigning during the AV referendum. It becomes apparent as the referendum date comes nearer that the campaign steps up and a huge amount of discussion takes place. Members of this House and of the other House will have the opportunity to have their say. Business will have its say, NGOs will have their say and both sides of the case will be put. I am convinced that when this referendum is eventually held, the yes campaign and the no campaign will have long and detailed campaigns which will allow the British public to hear both the case for and the case against. This is an opportunity to allow that debate and those campaigns to start, and to allow the British people to have their say. There is overwhelming evidence that a referendum is what the people of this country—
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I thought that with the Minister’s reference to the balance of competences in her opening remarks, she was about to turn and recommend to her noble friend that they should accept the amendment. Is that the case? If not, why not? She is in government; if there were a referendum tomorrow, would the Government ensure that the sort of information called for in the amendment was provided? I hope that the answer is yes, and if it is then I hope that she will recommend this amendment to her noble friend.
Baroness Warsi
As the noble Lord is aware, the balance of competences review is to be done over four terms. The first set of papers has already been published and the second is being published as we speak. It is important that there is a timeframe within which this proper process is allowed to take place, and that is why the date as set in this Bill is not before the end of 2017. In those circumstances, I would say that the overwhelming feeling of the British people is to allow the referendum to happen.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, someone has just passed me a note to remind me that today is the anniversary of when the Emperor Caligula was deserted by his noble friends in 41 AD and came to a sticky end. I am not quite sure what they meant by that.
Another amendment, another hour, so I will be brief. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Roper, for the dignified way in which he has introduced the amendment. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes; I hope that it will not embarrass him if I confirm that we have extremely cordial personal relations outside this Chamber, but I assure noble Lords that that has never done anything to undermine the asperity of our politics.
Once again, this is a specific matter that was debated in the other place at some length and was turned down by a resounding margin. I understand why. The amendment could be taken as implying a lack of belief in our democratic process and the ability and capacity of people to come to a sensible conclusion. Of course they should be fully informed. That is the basis of our democracy; it is what election and referendum campaigns are all about. We have the most mature democracy in the world. The people are more than capable of understanding that the press often talks complete nonsense, as do the political parties and even perhaps the CBI. We have heard a lot about the CBI on this particular amendment; I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and others would like the CBI to have a role in this independent, objective and dispassionate—to use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock—assessment. Is that the same CBI that a few years ago was chiding the then Labour Government to get off the fence and join the euro? You see, it is not quite as simple as—
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, gets up to speak, perhaps I may say one thing. I will be brief. The noble Baroness knows that I have the highest possible regard for her, but she is playing a very sticky wicket today. I do not want to make her life more difficult, but I say for future amendments that it is extremely difficult for there to be a Government position on this Bill. If there is a Conservative position, the Conservative Benches are behind the government Front Bench—unless, as in the Leveson debate, we might have two views on every group of amendments. That is what coalition is all about. If there are not two views, I think it is more appropriate for the views of the Conservatives to be given from the Conservative Back Benches. However, that has nothing to do with the noble Baroness.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, perhaps I should just repeat what I said in the debate on Second Reading, which is that of course I speak only for the Conservative part of the Government. I have absolutely no objection to, and in fact would be delighted to hear from, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, if he were to give a Front Bench view of what the Liberal Democrats think.
I want to raise one issue in relation to reform. A number of noble Lords asked how much reform could be achieved or what the Prime Minister saw as constituting reform of the EU. On a number of occasions at the Dispatch Box, I have said what the Prime Minister’s vision is, and he referred to it in his Bloomberg speech. He has talked about a Europe which is more competitive, more flexible and more democratically accountable. I have spoken at the Dispatch Box as to what I mean by that. The Prime Minister laid it out in his Bloomberg speech: a more competitive Europe, with further completion of the single market in, for example, services, energy and digital; a more flexible Europe, where powers actually flow both ways; and a more democratically accountable Europe to deal with the worrying disconnect between the EU and its people. Another element of that is, for example, more parliamentary scrutiny, which we are already looking at.
We are making progress. A number of noble Lords asked what can be achieved. Of course reform can be achieved. We delivered the first ever cut in the EU budget—something we were told could not be achieved and, indeed, was not achieved by those on the Benches opposite when they were in government—working with Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark. Many lamented that fish discards could not be dealt with, but we worked with other states in dealing with that.
Lord Davies of Stamford
Why is the noble Baroness continuing to use “we”, referring to the Government, when she says that she speaks merely on behalf of the Conservative Party? The list of so-called achievements she has just reeled off are—if they are achievements—achievements of the Government as a whole.
Baroness Warsi
They are—and that Government are headed by a Conservative Prime Minister and a Conservative Foreign Secretary, who have led on these matters in the negotiations.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
The noble Baroness suggested that, if the Liberal Democrats had a different position, perhaps my noble friend Lord Wallace would be welcome to come and speak from the Dispatch Box. I remind her, and clarify for the House, that my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire is a government Whip. If there is anything analogous to a Liberal Democrat Front Bench, I believe it is represented by me, who am chairman of the House of Lords parliamentary policy committee on foreign affairs.
Baroness Warsi
It is good to hear that we have consistently heard from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench. There should therefore be no concerns in your Lordships’ House.
I will just end by making the point that, for some, there will never be the right time for a referendum; others, I know, hold sincere views as to why a certain time is not the right one. However, the British people are deeply sceptical about the status quo—they want to know that they will have a say and when.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I really would ask the Minister to perhaps have a word with her noble friend Lord Trefgarne, who is sitting there with a copy of the Companion on his lap. It would be really useful if he gave the noble Baroness the advice he gave another noble Lord earlier about speaking to the amendments.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, a number of noble Lords have raised the issue. The amendment is specifically about the date and that is what I am referring to. It is important that we let the British people have their say by allowing the Bill to proceed as it stands. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, called 2017 the “leave the EU date”. We must not let today become the “never give the people a choice date”.
Baroness Boothroyd
I have been a Member of Parliament for more than 40 years. In my experience, I have never yet seen either the Opposition or the Government speak from the Dispatch Box and have two views, one from the Dispatch Box and one from the Back Benches. I have never known this situation before—it ought to have been sorted out right at the very beginning. The noble Baroness speaks for the Conservative Party and the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, speaks for the Conservative Party. We are having two wind-ups from the Conservative Party.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I have huge regard for the noble Baroness. There are clearly strongly held views on this matter so I will take advice and ensure that matters are clarified.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, this has been a very serious and significant debate. It is the sort of debate that we should have had on this Bill. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, for the dignified and detailed way in which he introduced his amendment. If I may be forgiven, because it is a very significant amendment, I will take a little time in dealing with it.
I see the logic of so much of what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others have said. I take a different logic, and I need to explain that. This amendment goes right to the heart of why I got involved with this Bill in the first place. I do not want to destroy—far from it, I want to build, and I want to build trust. I do not want to fan any flames; I want to put them out once and for all. I have heard a lot during this debate about our relationship with our European partners, but I think that we should show at least as much if not more concern for the feelings of our own people.
Why do we need a date, or at least a timeframe, because that is what it is? The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, explained with great eloquence and experience how complicated these things are, and he is right. That is why, despite all the promises that have been made, all the forests that have been felled in order to print political manifestos, nothing has been done. That is the cause of the distrust. People have been promised a referendum and have been denied it, time and again. Those are the flames of discontent that I wish to put out. We need a timeframe in order to stop that further decay of trust. Less than 10% of this House would have been too young to vote in the referendum in 1975, but more than 70% of the population of our country fall into that category. We are not representative of the country, least of all in its desire for a referendum.
Let us suppose that the referendum is held in October 2017. Of course, there will be shopping lists of what we have got right, what we have got wrong, where we have failed, where we will gain and where we will lose. But the job will not be finished then. These relationships are never once-and-for-all matters, whether we are in or out of the EU. We will have to deal with it and our relationship will carry on developing. Of course, there will be more to be done. It will not all be finished by October 2017. There is always more to be done. We will not be saying that the job is over once and for all but we will be asking the people if they are willing to support a future in the European Union or outside it.
Why 2017? It is because we as politicians have consistently failed. We have talked the talk but never walked the walk. We have never provided the referendum that we all have talked about at various times. The people want something more solid than yet more broken promises. The question I asked at Second Reading, which the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, was kind enough to acknowledge, was: if not 2017, when? Answer comes there none.
Let us go back eight years. During the past eight years, when would we have said that it was a good time for a referendum? I cannot think of one. There are always reasons not to do something.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, when we debated earlier the level of confidence that people would have in the outcome of any referendum, I took the liberty of reminding the Committee of the kind of terminology that was used during the original Scottish referendum and, indeed, the whole process that led up to it. The idea of the settled will of any people must depend on it being a will that is expressed by an appreciable proportion of those people. There must be any number of us who have been involved in decisions where a very small number of people have taken them, often in gatherings called at inconvenient times and in inconvenient places, and have not felt even at that micro level that it was a reasonable way of proceeding. For those reasons, a threshold amendment has a great deal of merit. The biggest advantage is that in the following years people will draw the conclusion that it was an expression of views which commanded a significant number of people to take part and a significant proportion to vote in favour. It is a matter of confidence.
I suspect that noble Lords would not want to come back to the issue of the European Union again and again were it to be the case that the people of the United Kingdom decided that they wished to continue membership. Nothing is for ever, but we would want to feel that the matter had been settled for at least the period that it had been settled for in the past. No one could involve themselves in serious business plans or make plans about where they were going to live and draw their pensions in the character of the broader community in which they were going to do so. I therefore ask the House in a spirit that I hope will not be regarded as wrecking anything, but which is about securing the future in a more stable and happy frame of mind, to try to ensure that everyone who looks at the results says that a significant proportion of the population took part and a significant proportion of those who took part made the decision. That is where our confidence lies.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I speak as a government Minister and, as always, as a member of the Conservative Party. Perhaps I may express the Government’s view in relation to referendums. Their view is that referendum results should be determined by a simple majority, and we do not believe that thresholds apply. This is the approach taken in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 and follows the recommendation of the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution in its 2010 report, Referendums in the United Kingdom.
Lord Dobbs
My Lords, you wait for one amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, to come along and then three or four arrive at the same time. I am grateful to him. This is clearly a serious issue and the points that have been made are well taken. Personally, I cannot conceive of circumstances in which, for instance, Amendment 40, which requires a 25% turnout, would ever arise. This is far too important a decision, which I am sure the British people would acknowledge and do justice to. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, correctly pointed out the difficulties around setting a threshold. We would all like a very clear decision in a referendum, and there are dangers in being too prescriptive about the form that that decision should take: turnouts, majorities and so forth.
There is what I think is an important safety valve in the Bill. We are not talking about a binding referendum. It is not like, for instance, the AV referendum we had recently; it is a consultative referendum. Parliament would have to deal with the consequences of an out vote. How they would deal with the difficulties and uncertainties that might then arise would depend entirely upon the circumstances of the time.