European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Richard Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, there is a very short and simple answer: because almost everybody in this House so far has supported the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, why on earth does not the mover of the Bill accept this amendment? There is no problem in the Commons.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords, I will deal first with the so-called constitutional argument that seems to have emerged in the past three-quarters of an hour or so, which is that somehow or other this House should not seek to scrutinise this Bill too closely, it should not seek to amend it and it should certainly not seek to do anything that sent it back to the House of Commons in a different form from that in which it arrived here.

Over the past two years I have listened ad nauseam to Members of this House, particularly some of those who have spoken today. I am thinking notably of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who lectured me continually on the virtues of the nominated House as we have it and the iniquities of possibly having an elected House and told me—as I say, very frequently and very loudly—that the function of this House was that we should scrutinise a Bill, we should revise a Bill, we should examine it in detail, we should send it back to the House of Commons if we thought it was right, and we should amend it. The phrase that I heard so often was that the main function of this House was to ask the House of Commons to think again.

I do not detect any dissent from the other side so I was rather disappointed when the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, at Second Reading and indeed today, repeated the argument that somehow or other this Bill is so special and so unique that we should not consider it, we should not try to amend it, we should certainly not succeed in amending it and we should certainly not ask the House of Commons to think again about what it has sent here. That is a nonsense: it is a constitutional nonsense; it is a political nonsense; and it makes absolute nonsense of the functions of this House.

We do have those duties. They are not just rights but duties. If proposed legislation comes before the House of Lords, the House of Lords has a duty to scrutinise it, particularly if it has not been done properly in the other place. The short answer to this issue and this amendment is very simple: it is that the Electoral Commission, an independent body, has looked at this issue and had some research done. It may be imperfect, as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, told us, but the general effect of all that work by the Electoral Commission is that it has come up with a proposal for a question that should be put in the referendum. It is a question which on the Electoral Commission’s analysis is clear, unambiguous, neutral and fair, and it should therefore be one which this House should be prepared to include in the Bill.

For the life of me, I do not understand the attitude on the other side. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, said that, somehow or other, we would be strengthening the UKIP argument that the United Kingdom should withdraw from the European Union. If the noble and learned Lord had looked in the rows behind him at the moment that he said that he was against that, he would have seen the faces of those whose predominant passion as far as Europe is concerned seems to be that we should withdraw. It is quite extraordinary that the people who are most vociferous in support of this legislation are not the democrats in the Conservative Party but are, as somebody has christened them, the Tea Party.

So be it. That is what we are faced with. For the House of Lords not to accept that that is what we are faced with and for the House of Lords not to do its duty in relation to this Bill would be a derogation of its duties. I hope therefore that the House will vote strongly in favour of the amendment.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I have great respect and regard for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Popat (Con)]

My Lords, the Chief Whip explained this last Friday. Although the Companion says that the House should rise at 3 pm, precedent has been set in the past that on a Private Member’s Bill the House has continued until 5 pm to 5.30 pm, so we propose that the House will continue till about 5.30 pm.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I am sorry to pursue this point but I was slightly involved in it last week. May I take it that the view now from the business managers on the other side of the House is that proceedings on this Bill will be adjourned in about an hour? Is that right?

[A noble Lord]

Yes, that is what he said.

[Lord Richard]

That is what he said?

[Lord Popat]

Yes, my Lords.

[Lord Richard]

Thank you.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I think that the Lord Speaker asked about Amendment 11. That was taken along with Amendment 1 and we have already debated it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

Yes.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, my name appears on the amendments. Obviously, I very much support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Wigley. This is an important issue in Wales. The language is a strong issue. It could be a divisive one but it is not at the moment, or not greatly so, because by and large English and Welsh are treated increasingly on a basis of equality. If we have the English version in the Bill, it seems only right that we should have the Welsh version too. I say to my noble friend that as a south Waleian, I did not entirely understand his pure accent as he comes from north Wales. Doing the best that I can with the Welsh language, which is not a great deal but is something, it seems to me to be a totally accurate translation.

[Lord Skelmersdale (Con)]

My Lords, it occurs to me that the words “a Welsh version” have been used many times, and Clause 1(5) states:

“In Wales, a Welsh version of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers, as provided by order”.

The other point that I will make briefly is that I wonder what noble Lords think the language generally spoken in Northern Ireland is because that is referred to in the amendment we are discussing.