Media Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, it is an extremely surreal moment to stand up just as the Prime Minister is about to walk out of the door of No. 10, maybe to announce a general election for 4 July. Of course, if that does happen it means we will be dealing with these very important issues during the wash-up process.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

I just wanted to let the noble Lord know that Downing Street is delaying the announcement for 10 minutes so that we can hear his speech in full.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I am always grateful for suggestions from my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey.

The amendments that have already been debated are extremely important. I am particularly grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, for explaining the somewhat complex details surrounding the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge. These amendments are really important in the context of going back to the sort of local radio stations we used to enjoy. He is also right to point out that a number of our debates have already demonstrated how important it is for Parliament to give a clear direction to Ofcom about its various activities.

I will concentrate on my Amendments 75 and 76. On Monday, I referred to the vital importance of Sections 319 and 320 of the Communications Act in creating an impartiality framework for TV and radio, building on earlier ones. That tradition of impartiality is the basis for the very high level of trust in our broadcast journalists—a tradition as vital for radio as it is for television. As I said on Monday, in an era of disinformation and conspiracy theories, spread so easily and quickly via social media, those impartiality requirements and the trust they engender in broadcast news and information are more important than ever. However, they are now under threat from a combination of a new generation of opinionated news stations and what appears to be the increasing reluctance of Ofcom to implement Parliament’s will.

Those impartiality rules, laid down by Parliament in 2003, are very clear. Section 319(2)(c) of the Act lays down that one of the standards objectives to be enforced by Ofcom is that

“news included in television and radio services is presented with due impartiality and that the impartiality requirements of section 320 are complied with”.

Section 320 states clearly that, for every radio and television service, due impartiality must be preserved in—this is critical—

“matters of political or industrial controversy; and … matters relating to current public policy”.

In simple terms, I believe that means that the due impartiality requirements must apply equally to both news and what we might call current affairs.

Recently, however, Ofcom seems to be making a distinction, allowing greater latitude for current affairs programmes to escape the due impartiality requirement. The distinction was first raised on 21 March last year in an Ofcom blog posted by its then group director for broadcasting and online content, Kevin Bakhurst. It was headlined, “Can politicians present TV and radio shows? How our rules apply”. Mr Bakhurst stated that,

“generally speaking, if it’s a news programme, a politician cannot present”,

but

“They are allowed to present other kinds of shows … including current affairs”.


Yet that distinction between news and current affairs appears nowhere in the relevant statute; nor did it appear in Ofcom’s Broadcasting Code or in the guidance that accompanies the code, yet Ofcom now clearly sees a distinction.

Last month, looking further into the issue of politicians presenting programmes, Ofcom commissioned IPSOS to carry out some focus groups among audiences. One of the conclusions in the IPSOS report was:

“Participants thought they could easily distinguish between news and current affairs … However, in practice, the presentation and style of these types of content blurred the line between news and current affairs which confused participants”.


IPSOS concluded that:

“The most prevalent opinion was feeling uncomfortable with politicians presenting current affairs content”.


While Ofcom appears to want news and current affairs to be treated separately, audiences have difficulty distinguishing between the two, so, just as the 2003 Act intended, news and current affairs programmes should both be covered by Sections 319 and 320 of the Act. The arbitrary distinction that Ofcom appears to have made between news and current affairs has no basis in law. After all, both quite clearly relate to

“matters of political or industrial controversy; and … matters relating to current public policy”.

Were the distinction to continue, it would significantly weaken the impartiality framework, so Amendment 75 makes it clear that Parliament always intended news to incorporate current affairs, in line with audience expectations.

This brings us back to the issue about partisan presenters. We have some outstanding radio show presenters with well-known political allegiances, including some from this House. I mention in passing the excellent programmes on Times Radio presented by the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, and the newly ennobled noble Baroness, Lady Hazarika. We would not want to banish them from the air waves any more than we would want to banish, say, Nigel Farage from GB News. We are a liberal democracy, and we want to protect those contributions, but surely only if their shows live up to the same standards of impartiality required for news programmes.

Given the very high trust that audiences have invested in our broadcast services, as well as the clear audience discomfort with politically partisan presenters, we should seriously consider whether additional impartiality guardrails might be necessary for programmes hosted by well-known figures with well-recognised political allegiances. Amendment 76 addresses the rules around partisan presenters, whether on news or current affairs programmes, and it offers the simple proposal that the Secretary of State should review whether an enhanced duty of impartiality for such presenters might be necessary. The current rules around impartiality should not be allowed to be weakened by a regulator, certainly not without Parliament’s permission. Taken together, Amendment 75 and 76 seek to protect the legacy of trust which our broadcast media has taken decades to construct and which must not carelessly be disregarded.

BBC

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Given your previous life as a journalist, I am sure that you were itching to participate in the debate, but you have carried out your duties with suitable neutrality and aplomb.

I congratulate my hon. Friend—I mean that—the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), for whom I have spoken in the past and to whom I am utterly devoted for securing this important debate. Regardless of whether or not I agree with parts of his speech, if it does not win The Spectator speech of the year award at the parliamentarian of the year awards, I will want to know the reason why. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster), who spoke with his usual verve, the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), my hon. Friends the Members for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), and for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), and the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), on their important contributions. If I may say so, drawing myself up to my full patronising height, very few political points were scored and all hon. Members made their contributions as, I think, critical friends of the BBC.

May I use this opportunity to offer my congratulations to George Entwistle, the new director-general of the BBC, who was appointed last week? I am sure that he will prove to be a fine director-general. I have met him only once, but he seems to have received, from those who live and work in that world, a uniformly good press on his talent and ability to work with people.

[Mr Foster]

May I join my hon. Friend the Minister on congratulating George Entwistle on his appointment as director-general of the BBC? Does he give the same praise to the person who wrote the caption that spelled his name incorrectly on the BBC news?

[Mr Vaizey]

I gather that that was an inauspicious debut for the new director-general. I join my right hon. Friend in saying that I, too, am a fan of the BBC. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire for highlighting additional work the BBC does under the radar. For example, in Wales, the BBC supports the orchestra—an important reminder of its wide-ranging work. When we focus on aspects that we do not like or that merit criticism, we should remember the many wonderful things the BBC does.

I was unfortunate not to see the BBC’s jubilee coverage—I watched the event live—so I cannot comment on its quality, but perhaps I can use this moment to congratulate Lord Sterling, the chairman of the National Maritime Museum, on commissioning Gloriana, the wonderful barge that sailed down the Thames as a tribute to Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee. I recently visited the BBC headquarters in Scotland. It was a useful reminder of the BBC’s important presence in the regions—not just in Scotland or Wales, but in Salford and other cities in England. Of course, I bow to no one in my praise of the excellent quality of the output of BBC Radio Oxford.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 16th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

That is exactly what we intend to do.

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

Further to the Minister’s earlier answer, he will recall that Liberal Democrats argued that the web blocking proposals simply would not work. Has he come to the same conclusion, and will he accept that it is vital to find ways to protect the internet protocol of creators from illegal websites? Will he tell us what will happen on that?

[Mr Vaizey]

As I have said, we will announce our proposals shortly. We asked Ofcom to prepare an independent report on the effectiveness of technical measures to block websites, which we will publish at the same time as our conclusions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 28th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

11. What discussions he has had with the BBC Trust on the contribution of the BBC to the provision of high speed broadband.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

Following discussions at official level with the BBC and BBC Trust, the BBC agreement is being amended to reflect its new funding obligations arising from the television licence fee settlement, including the obligations related to support for broadband roll-out. The draft text of the amended agreement is currently with my Secretary of State for approval.

[Mr Foster]

May I take this opportunity to congratulate all the staff who have worked so hard to help to ensure that tomorrow will be a great day for the royal family, especially the royal couple, as well as a great boost to UK tourism? Does the Minister agree that, with only 1% of households currently having high-speed broadband, if we are to achieve our target of being the best in Europe by 2015, we have to drive up demand? Does it therefore make sense for the BBC to use some of its ring-fenced licence fee money for that very purpose?

[Mr Vaizey]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an effective point. May I also take this opportunity to thank the many people I met in Bath for making my visit to his constituency at the beginning of the month so enjoyable? As he knows, Martha Lane Fox is leading the Race Online 2012 campaign to encourage as many people as possible to get online. Public libraries, through the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, have set a target of getting 500,000 people online, and I know that the BBC is pushing forward interesting initiatives to encourage people to get online, which I discuss with it regularly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

It is the first time that that issue has been raised with me, and I would be delighted to sit down with the hon. Lady and discuss it further.

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

As currently drafted, the Localism Bill would allow local development plans to circumvent the existing rules on listed buildings. Does the Minister agree that this could play havoc with our current built heritage? What discussions is he having with the Department for Communities and Local Government to avoid that problem?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 20th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, a number of officials will move over from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—indeed, they used to work for him. They are very experienced in working with internet service providers and others.

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

About 50% of households have access to high-speed broadband, but sadly only about 0.2% of them have bothered to sign up. Does the Minister agree that if we are to get what he wants, which is the best high-speed broadband in Europe, we have to stimulate demand for it? Does he agree that the BBC should use some of the money allocated to it for this area of work to stimulate demand, rather than just building infrastructure?

[Mr Vaizey]

It is important to make it clear that the money from the TV licence fee will be used to roll out superfast broadband, but an important part of our broadband strategy—what is known as demand stimulation—is that more people take up superfast broadband. Martha Lane Fox and others are working to increase take-up of broadband.

The Internet and Privacy

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 28th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend has raised two very important points that encapsulate the two principles behind the debate, which is unsurprising, given that he secured it. First, the internet is an enormous step change in the collection of personal data. What are the implications of that? Secondly, given that enormous step change, what rights—I use the word advisedly—should consumers have to protect their personal data when they interact with organisations on the internet?

Another general point about internet regulation is that a consistent approach to it is rarely adopted. It is always interesting to see those who want the internet to be regulated and those who do not. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who made a useful speech attacking the Digital Economy Act 2010, does not want the internet to be regulated when it comes to combating illegal file sharing, but he does want it regulated when it comes to protecting personal data. He kindly let me know that he would have to leave the debate at 4 o’clock to attend an event that he is hosting. He is very knowledgeable on the subject, and I hope that he will be prepared to share with me—an erstwhile colleague—the findings of the Liberal Democrat policy group on that issue, which will be an extremely useful contribution to the debate.

[Mr Foster]

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) will share that information not only with the Minister, but with me; that is proving a little difficult at the moment. On a more serious note, I say to the Minister that one problem we all have in the debate is recognising that a balance has to be struck; we want to protect people’s privacy on the one hand, and their livelihoods on the other. That is the difficulty, and it is probably one with which my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge is still struggling.

[Mr Vaizey]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says; when a senior Liberal Democrat comments that a junior Liberal Democrat is struggling with an issue, the junior Liberal Democrat should certainly take note of his colleague’s experience in the matter. The hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) made an incredibly useful contribution to the debate, as he always does, and mentioned the report published today by the Boston Consulting Group, which might have been commissioned by Google. The report estimated that in the UK alone, the internet economy is worth £100 billion. He was right to point out that a balance has to be struck between how we regulate the internet and protect personal privacy online on the one hand, and the fact that it is now an incredibly important economic force on the other. One of the reasons for its economic importance is that it has had the freedom to develop and businesses have had the freedom to establish themselves online.

We should make no mistake that the internet is regulated, a point that I make time and again. There sometimes seems to be a lazy assumption that what happens on the internet is beyond the law. That is absolutely not the case; illegal activity is still illegal, whether or not it takes place online. Indeed, we have a sophisticated and comprehensive regulatory framework that is intended to protect the individual, both offline and online. Matters of online privacy are regulated through the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Privacy and Electronic Communication (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, not to mention the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Much of that is enforced through the Information Commissioner’s Office, which is responsible for upholding information rights, promoting openness by public bodies and enforcing data protection rights for individuals. Where a breach of those laws amounts to a criminal offence, appropriate enforcement action can be taken, either by the police or the Information Commissioner.

We all recognise, however, that there are practical differences between the online world and the physical world, which can cause difficulties for individuals and companies. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow suggested that perhaps the time has come for an internet Bill of Rights, and I hear what he says. The Information Commissioner has published a code of practice on the collection of personal information online, and I have a copy here. It is 36 pages long and densely printed—I do not think the commissioner has worked in public relations—so I am not sure that it is being read in the Dog and Duck, but at least the detail exists. The commissioner would do well to meet my hon. Friend to discuss how the code of practice could be promoted and whether it meets some of the concerns that his proposed internet Bill of Rights would seek to address.

The code of practice sets down detailed guidance for public and private sector organisations operating online. It covers topics such as online marketing, cloud computing, the protection of young people online and, of course, privacy settings. The document is not set in aspic, and we continue to debate with a range of stakeholders how we can improve privacy online and other concerns. Only yesterday, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills held a meeting with more than 100 stakeholders from across the sectors, including consumer interest groups and Consumer Focus, to discuss that issue. The ICO, as well as publishing the guidance, expects organisations to recognise that online processing brings with it new risks to individuals and that the mitigation of those risks requires careful consideration of privacy impacts before products and services are launched.

I want to take that further and to see businesses signing up openly to the ICO’s code of practice to demonstrate to their users that their services adhere to the highest standards. I cannot remember who asked, in an intervention, whether some sort of kitemark might be useful for internet sites. If an internet company signs up to the code of practice and adheres to it, I think that that information should be clearly displayed on their home page for the reassurance of consumers. Indeed, a link to that code of practice might be provided—not necessarily 36 pages of dense text, but an easy-to-read summary that aids the consumer in understanding privacy implications.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

If my hon. Friend gives me some evidence, I will look at it and have no hesitation in passing it on to the Information Commissioner, because that behaviour is clearly a breach of data protection.

[Mr Foster]

Given that the Minister is talking about the importance of freedom, openness and so on, could he make available to all Members a copy of the note he just received so we can have a word with his official and point out that the Minister does not need to speak for 20 minutes?

[Mr Vaizey]

I think that that would be a breach of my official’s privacy.

I shall turn briefly to Facebook and the consumer’s right to privacy. As I have already talked about the personal information online code of practice, hon. Members will be aware that there was great controversy earlier in the year about Facebook, because its privacy settings were seen as unclear. Its default settings put one in the public space as opposed to the private space, so, suddenly, one had to opt out of rather than into that sphere. I am delighted to say that Facebook has been working closely with colleagues at the Department for Education and is now a member of the UK Council for Child Internet Safety, as is Google and BlackBerry. As such, it follows the good practice guidance—produced to guide companies that provide internet services popular with children and young people—about what additional safeguards it can put in place to protect children online and provide a positive online experience. The guidance includes advice on companies’ obligations to ensure the privacy of their users’ information and on options and settings they can provide users to protect privacy further, and it recommends making information on safety and privacy easily accessible to users, so they understand the privacy options available. The UKCCIS continues to work with companies providing internet services used by children, including Facebook, to improve safeguards, including safeguarding their privacy.

On scraping and cookies, as I am sure hon. Members are aware, a cookie is a piece of text stored by a user’s web browser. There are many uses for cookies, including authentication, storing site preferences and shopping cart contents and as the identifier for a server-based session. Cookies are also used to speed up the user’s web browser as they help to remember the settings and options used the last time a website or page was visited. They have been a hot topic for some time. At the moment, information obtained through cookies can be used to categorise users’ internet interests to serve adverts that match broad interest categories, though the user should be able to refuse the import of cookies on to their machines. Clearly, that has commercial benefits, and, indeed, benefits to the individual—we should not be shy about saying that, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire was clear about the benefits of targeted marketing to individuals. However, organisations have to ensure that users are aware that they are collecting such information and know why.

The revised e-privacy directive will give users greater control by requiring organisations to get their agreement before the information is collected.

Local Media

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 24th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

What a great pleasure it is to open this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I thank hon. Members and hon. Friends for their early support for my remarks, which may have been heard as “noises off”.

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Benton. I apologise for interrupting the Minister. Would it be in order for hon. Members to take off their jackets?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

As the hon. Gentleman is fully aware, I have answered a parliamentary question on that point, and I refer him back to the answer I gave him some days ago.

[Mr Foster]

As some of us have not had the opportunity of seeing the answer, would my hon. Friend the Minister be kind enough to tell all hon. Members what that answer was?

[Mr Vaizey]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am against Government waste, and it seems pointless to repeat that answer here when it has already been printed in Hansard. I will write him a letter explaining what my definition of super-fast broadband is, but it certainly does not involve the word “megabit.”

We have always been clear that the previous Government’s plans for independently funded news consortia were the wrong way to go, and we opposed those plans from the beginning. We understood why the previous Government wanted to put the measures in place: it was their answer to the challenge of sustaining regional news. There is a legacy from the process that they started, in that it kindled innovative ideas among local media companies. Indeed, my understanding is that many of the consortia that formed as a result of that policy will continue to work together to look at ways of taking their ideas forward. We hope that by, for example, relaxing the cross-media ownership rules, they can follow a deregulatory path, rather than the subsidy path, to bring their ideas to fruition.

We always felt strongly that the issue of subsidy focused consortia on the best way to get access to the subsidy, as opposed to the best way to engage with viewers. That is why we opposed subsidies, and why we took an early decision not to go ahead with the pilots. The savings made from not going ahead with them will go into providing super-fast broadband, a definition of which is available in Hansard.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I agree with much of what my hon. Friend has said, but does he accept that in places such as Yorkshire, ITV regional news—the news programme there is called “Calendar”—is incredibly popular, and that there is great demand for it? Will he think again about the obvious solution that would help organisations such as ITV carry on with programmes such as “Calendar”? That solution is to top-slice the BBC licence fee. The BBC gets more and more money every year—so much money that in most years, it does not know how to spend it. That money could be given to an organisation such as ITV to do something worth while, such as providing real competition within regional news, which is much enjoyed in places such as Yorkshire.