Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
This Bill is a fundamental part of the agreement reached last week after 10 weeks of intensive talks involving the Northern Ireland parties, the Secretary of State and the Irish Government. The talks resulted in an agreement called A Fresh Start: the Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan. As part of this agreement, the Government are committed to bringing forward this Bill, which will enable it to legislate for welfare reform in Northern Ireland.
Noble Lords will be aware of much of the background to why this legislation is necessary, so I will not go into a great deal of detail now. In summary, while welfare is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, it has in practice maintained parity with the rest of the United Kingdom. This parity principle has served Northern Ireland well. It means benefit claimants have been able to avail of the same rates of benefit as those in the rest of the United Kingdom, something that would not have been affordable if Northern Ireland had to support its own system.
However, over the past three years, the Northern Ireland Assembly has been unable to implement welfare reform legislation mirroring that of the Government’s Welfare Reform Act 2012. This has resulted in Northern Ireland’s welfare system being not just slightly different but fundamentally and structurally different from that in place in the rest of the United Kingdom. This difference is simply unsustainable. Once Great Britain moves entirely to the new system based around universal credit, Northern Ireland will no longer have access to the DWP computer systems on which it relies to assess and deliver people’s benefits. It would be left with no option but to devise, implement and maintain an entirely separate and more expensive system and meet the massive costs of the IT needed to support it. For a small devolved Administration, this would be prohibitive. Budgets for other departments would have to be cut very significantly to pay for it with an inevitable impact on front-line services and the capital spending available for crucial infrastructure, such as road improvements. This would undermine the credibility of the devolved institutions and would also do irreparable damage to the political relationships which are central to making them work.
This scenario was dangerously close to becoming a reality following the Assembly’s failure in May to pass its Welfare Reform Bill. On 26 May, the Bill passed its final stage with the backing of three of the then five parties in the Executive, but it was blocked by the other two parties using a device in the Assembly known as a petition of concern meaning that the legislation had to have cross-community support, which it failed to achieve. Northern Ireland’s devolved institutions were once again faced with almost complete deadlock and, by early autumn, it looked increasingly likely that welfare reform would bring down the Executive itself.
This is the context in which the agreement was reached and in which the Government have agreed to bring forward this Bill. The Bill provides the Government with a power to legislate for welfare in Northern Ireland via an order in council. The power provided is a broad power, for a number of reasons. In providing a broad power, the Bill allows the Government to implement various Northern Ireland-specific flexibilities and top-ups. In doing so, the Government are demonstrating that their intention is not to impose Great Britain’s welfare system on Northern Ireland. Instead, we are proposing to use the power provided by this Bill to legislate for the Northern Ireland-tailored welfare system agreed by the Northern Ireland parties. The order in council that will follow this Bill, if passed, will make this clear. The second reason for opting for a broad power in this Bill is that it enables the Government to help implement other welfare reforms, including those contained in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill currently being considered by noble Lords.
It is important to stress three important considerations at this point. First, this Bill does not affect the legislative competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly. In other words, if the Assembly can agree to do so, it can continue to pass welfare legislation. The Bill therefore creates a situation in which welfare is both devolved—meaning that the Assembly can legislate for it—and effectively reserved, meaning the Government can legislate for it. Secondly, the legislative approach outlined in this Bill has arisen at the request of the Northern Ireland parties. The Assembly last week granted its consent, by an overwhelming majority of 70 votes to 22, to this Bill. Thirdly, I assure the House that the UK Government have no intention or desire to legislate on an ongoing basis for welfare in Northern Ireland. This is why Clause 3 time-limits the power so that an order cannot be made after 31 December 2016.
In closing, I shall comment briefly on the speed at which this Bill is being taken through both Houses. I fully accept that what we are asking the House to do today is exceptional. I agree that taking all stages of a Bill through the House in a single day is not ideal and I fully understand that a number of noble Lords have misgivings about it. The Government would very much prefer not to have to take this approach. I can assure the House that the Government are fast-tracking this legislation only because we view it to be absolutely necessary in this specific case; necessary to ensure that welfare reform is no longer an issue undermining the political process in Northern Ireland; necessary to implement the agreement that was reached at Stormont last Tuesday; and necessary to underpin the stability and survival of the power-sharing devolved institutions at Stormont.
If we do not get this legislation on to the statute book and continue with the implementation of last week’s agreement, there will be a very serious risk that devolution will collapse, leading to a return to direct rule. A resumption of direct rule would inevitably mean many items of long and complex primary legislation being taken through by order, month after month. This would mean not only denying such legislation scrutiny in the Assembly but would also inevitably take up large amounts of parliamentary time. The Government’s approach may be unconventional, but it does have the cross-community support of a vast number of Northern Ireland’s elected representatives. This is a Bill which will help resolve the long-running, politically divisive stalemate over welfare reform. It is a crucial element of establishing and building upon the fresh start announced last week and it offers the only realistic prospect of resolving Northern Ireland’s welfare reform impasse. I beg to move.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I begin by thanking speakers from all sides of the House for their helpful, constructive and supportive contributions to this debate and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his generous words. I echo what several noble Lords have said about Peter Robinson. It is always useful to hear views from across the spectrum and I shall try, in my closing remarks, to address as many of the points raised as I can.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked why we had not moved more quickly. The Government were keen not to absolve the Northern Ireland parties of the responsibility that devolution brings, and the Secretary of State was clear throughout that legislation in this Parliament was a last resort. We were also very mindful of the need, were we to legislate in this Parliament, to get legislative consent from the Assembly. The noble Lord also mentioned the issues around legacy. It is very regrettable that consensus on all aspects could not be reached. The Government have worked hard to build consensus with the Northern Ireland parties over many weeks of intensive discussion, and the Government remain committed to continuing to work to build consensus on legacy issues. That is very much for the reasons about which the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, spoke so powerfully, with his focus on finding closure for victims. I was very much encouraged by his message of hope.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, also mentioned a body to monitor paramilitary activity. The establishment of a monitoring body to assess the impact of paramilitary activity on local communities is a crucial part of the final agreement between the Northern Ireland parties. The new body will measure the impact of paramilitary activity on local communities, as well as monitoring the delivery of the strategy to be developed by the Executive to bring an end to all paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland.
Turning to what the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, asked on the review of the sunset date after the Assembly elections, the Government’s strong view is that it is essential that the sunset clause runs until 31 December 2016. An earlier end date would mean that the necessary structural changes to the Northern Ireland welfare system could not take place. In other words, there has to be sufficient time to undertake other reforms such as those provided for by the Welfare Reform and Work Bill. This was a point accepted in the agreement reached last week and confirmed by the legislative consent motion passed by the Assembly last Wednesday.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, raised a number of issues about the Fresh Start agreement and I very much agree with what he is saying about the future in Northern Ireland, which is really about getting a strong economy in Northern Ireland. He talked about the finances of the Northern Ireland Executive and said that securing the implementation of welfare reform legislation is absolutely critical to putting those finances on a more secure footing. It is not a free lunch and included in the Fresh Start agreement is enhancing the fiscal responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive through additional financial controls to limit the Executive’s potential to set unrealistic budgets in future. Key to that is a new, independent fiscal council for Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Hay, talked about the cost of not implementing welfare reform, and he was right to highlight that failure to implement welfare reform is costing the Executive around £2 million a week. That is the difference between what the Treasury is prepared to fund up to parity with Great Britain and the cost of continuing to run the old, unreformed welfare system. The Northern Ireland Executive estimates that the cost to their budget next year will rise to more than £200 million and to more than £500 million by the end of this Parliament. That is clearly unaffordable, and these figures do not even take into account the cost of IT.
In terms of some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, I am very happy to write to him. We have taken this broad power because, when the 2012 welfare reform measures were first introduced, Northern Ireland’s Department for Social Development agreed certain administrative flexibilities with the Department for Work and Pensions. These included, for example, a slightly different sanctions regime and the ability for welfare payments to be made to claimants on a fortnightly rather than a monthly basis. Clearly, as I have said already, we have chosen a date that makes it possible to implement other 2015 reforms that are still in train.
I hope that answers most of the points. If I have not answered all the points then I am of course very happy to write to the noble Lord.
Scotland Bill
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, the United Kingdom is the most successful multinational state the world has ever known. On 18 September last year, people in Scotland voted in record numbers and by a clear and decisive majority to keep together our United Kingdom. However, last year’s referendum showed that nothing can be taken for granted; our union is precious, to be sustained and cherished day in, day out. There is no national forum more committed to protecting and strengthening the union than your Lordships’ House. Time and again the United Kingdom has shown its resilience and capacity for renewal in order to meet the needs and aspirations of successive generations. This Scotland Bill sits within that tradition. The Bill balances the strong desire of people in Scotland for more decisions to be taken in Scotland, closer to those they affect, while retaining the strength and security of remaining part of the larger UK.
I have only been in this House a short time, but long enough to appreciate the wealth of constitutional knowledge and experience in all parts of the House. This wealth is evident in the quality of those listed to speak today. I look forward to hearing what I know will be thoughtful and well-informed contributions, in particular the maiden speeches of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem.
Your Lordships have already made valuable contributions, including in the recently published reports of the Constitution Committee and the Economic Affairs Committees. From the outset of this debate, I want to recognise and acknowledge with respect the strong feelings already expressed, both about process and substance. I accept that the process has been unorthodox. Then again, the events of last September were unprecedented. The very future of the United Kingdom was at stake. In those circumstances, no stone was left unturned in the defence and preservation of our country. Who among us can say honestly that, faced with the same circumstances and responsibilities of national leadership, we would not have responded with the same sense of urgency and determination?
The task now is to help Scotland move on, building on our shared values and experiences, to forge anew the close bonds of kinship and friendship and sense of common purpose and endeavour that is the glue of any successful nation state. In rising to the challenge, we have a clear choice. We can continue either to pump things up, or we can try to calm things down. I confess to being a firm supporter of the second approach, not least because I am certain that those who want separation would prefer the first.
I hope that we all share a strong desire to work together to bring our nation together, and for those of us who believe passionately in the union to be united in delivering, through this Bill, the promises made to the people of Scotland.
Lord Maxton (Lab)
Is the Minister saying that the vow was the way in which the referendum was won? My view is that the vow was not necessary; the no vote would have won anyway.
Lord Dunlop
Fundamentally, I think it was the economic arguments that were decisive in the referendum. When the country is at stake, you want to do everything possible to maximise the no vote. That was what was done.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
Could my noble friend confirm that, according to the article written by the editor of the Daily Record, the vow was all his idea and was put together by Gordon Brown and the editor of the Daily Record as a publicity stunt?
Lord Dunlop
I am not quite clear whether he is saying that it was my idea or Gordon Brown’s. The key point about the vow is that three UK party leaders agreed it.
On the night of the referendum, as I waited for the results to come in, I listened carefully to what my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean had to say on the BBC’s “Scotland Decides” programme. He cut straight to the chase, as he so often does:
“The three party leaders made a promise—which I think they’ll find very difficult to deliver—but it has to be delivered”.
I agree with him—no one said it would be easy. Indeed, I can safely say to this House in all humility that, today, I am gaining some appreciation of what my noble friend foresaw. This Bill is the fulfilment of that promise. It has to be delivered. Yes, there has been scepticism. Would all parties come to the negotiating table? Would they stay? Would someone walk out before a deal was struck? Could all the milestones be met? For the first time in the history of devolution, all five of Scotland’s main political parties came together, stayed and reached a unique agreement. Every one of the milestones have been met on time.
Here, I want to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin. Hot on the heels of leading the fabulous Glasgow Commonwealth Games, he skilfully steered the process to a successful conclusion. We owe him a debt of gratitude. It is good to see him in his place today and back in rude health.
Much has been said about the Smith commission reaching an agreement of such great constitutional significance after only an eight-week process, yet the agreement was the culmination not of an eight-week process but a four-year process which started in 2011 with the election of a majority SNP Government. So the Smith commission agreement did not emerge from a vacuum. It emerged from four years of lively constitutional discussion and debate in Scotland, which was informed by the body of evidence compiled by the Calman commission, and from a discussion punctuated by the publication of numerous reports from Scottish Labour’s devolution committee, the home rule commission chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, and the commission chaired by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, alongside academic and think tank contributions, such as Reform Scotland’s devo plus and IPPR’s devo more reports. Indeed, I believe the Smith agreement was made possible because common ground had already been established by this body of preceding work.
Delivering the agreement in full is therefore a manifesto commitment of not only the Conservative Party but the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrat party and the Scottish National Party. So this Scotland Bill is not just a manifesto Bill; it is a super-manifesto Bill. Its provisions were agreed in the other place, where the Government listened to the debate, responded to the scrutiny and tabled more than 100 amendments on Report, and where the Bill was passed unopposed at Third Reading.
The Daily Record declares its famous vow met, and Gordon Brown says that the Smith commission recommendations, which arose from the vow, are delivered. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, has confirmed that the Bill honours what was agreed by the five parties. “A promise made is a promise kept” is surely an absolute precondition for earning the trust of the people of Scotland. Ahead of next year’s Scottish Parliament elections, the debate in Scotland is increasingly turning to how the powers are used, as it certainly must.
This Bill is not simply about keeping a promise. It is about bringing a better balance to Scotland’s devolution settlement and strengthening the union as a result. The Scottish Parliament was created with extensive spending powers—its budget today is around £30 billion— but little responsibility for raising the funds it wants to spend. The result is a fiscal gap and an accountability deficit. Before the Scotland Act 2012 is fully implemented, the Scottish Parliament controls almost 60% of public expenditure in Scotland yet is responsible for raising only some 10% of its funding. Once this Bill comes into effect, the Scottish Parliament will be responsible for raising more than 50% of what it spends. Holyrood will be transformed from a pocket-money Parliament, reliant on an annual cheque from the Treasury, to the powerhouse Parliament the people of Scotland want it to be. If the Scottish Government want a higher level of public services than the rest of the UK, they will have first to explain to voters in Scotland how they intend to pay for them.
Of course, some argue this Bill does not go far enough, yet it will make the Scottish Parliament one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world. No amount of devolution is going to be sufficient for those who believe in independence, but a majority of people in Scotland rejected independence and voted to retain the benefits of being part of the UK: the security of our own shared independent currency, backed by the strength and stability of the Bank of England; the job and business opportunities of a deeply integrated single market; our social union, in which risks and resources are pooled; and common defence and security in an uncertain world. Indeed, I am delighted that Scotland is to be home to the new maritime patrol aircraft and another squadron of Typhoon fast-jets. These are the UK benefits that the Smith agreement and this Bill are careful to protect. We have heard a great deal about full fiscal autonomy. I will be clear: full fiscal autonomy ends the pooling and sharing of risks and resources across the UK. It would be bad for Scotland and bad for the UK as a whole, and that is why we rejected it.
I turn to the provisions of the Bill itself. Part 1 takes forward the Smith agreement that the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government be set out in UK legislation, and that the Sewel convention be put on a statutory footing. This reflects the existing political understanding and does not alter the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The Scottish Parliament will be very largely responsible for how it runs itself, how it is elected and the people who can vote to elect it. Part 2 covers taxation. Maintaining the integrity of our single market and minimising business burdens means that not all taxes are candidates for devolution. Central to the debate is the devolution of income tax on earnings, building on the Scotland Act 2012 tax devolution, which comes into effect in April, and providing the Scottish Parliament with £11 billion of revenues. Income tax is paid by voters and is highly visible; whoever levies it is accountable to those paying it in the most direct way. While the definition of income remains reserved, the Scottish Parliament will have full control over rates and bands of income tax. It will be able to set a 0% rate, if it can afford to do so.
However, the Smith commission agreed that national insurance contributions should be reserved, so Scottish taxpayers will continue to help fund UK-wide services. Alongside income tax devolution sits VAT assignment. Differential VAT rates inside a member state are against EU law. This Bill assigns half of all VAT receipts raised in Scotland: £4.5 billion of revenue. Assigning a share of VAT was first suggested by the Calman commission. The more the Scottish economy grows, the greater the share of VAT revenue Holyrood will keep. That is an incentive to achieve growth. With the devolution of location-specific air passenger duty and the aggregates levy, the Scottish Parliament will have a mix of taxes and vitally important decisions to make.
Part 3 of the Bill means that the Scottish Government will be responsible for welfare provision in Scotland, worth approximately £2.7 billion last year, and able to take decisions for a number of types of social security benefit, discretionary payments, and employment support. Universal credit and its legacy benefits, such as pensions, remain reserved, although Scottish Ministers will be able to vary certain limited aspects. Devolving labour market benefits would undermine their role as automatic stabilisers and potentially put undue pressure on Scotland’s finances in the event of a localised economic shock. What the Bill does devolve are benefits strongly linked to powers already exercised by Scotland, such as social care and health. The Scottish Parliament will have responsibility for benefits to meet extra costs paid to carers, disabled people, those who are ill, and those who require help with winter fuel, funeral, and maternity payments. When people most require help, the Scottish Government will be able to tailor that help to particular Scottish circumstances.
The Smith agreement was also of the view that the Scottish Government should be able to top up reserved benefits: the Bill allows this to happen. On Report, the Commons approved a new government clause enabling the Scottish Parliament to create new benefits in devolved areas of responsibility. We must be clear about these new welfare powers. If the Scottish Government wish to make supplementary payments to people in receipt of a state pension or universal credit, for example, or create new benefits in devolved areas, they should be able to do so. However, crucially, they must be able to pay for it from their own revenues.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am sorry to interrupt again, but can my noble friend explain what the second no-detriment principle contained in the Smith commission report means—the idea that both sides, north and south of the border, should compensate each other for changes in policy—and how that relates to the welfare and other provisions in the Bill?
Lord Dunlop
I shall come on to speak about the fiscal framework. The Government of Scotland and the UK Government are negotiating the fiscal framework and exactly how we put those principles, including the no-detriment principles, into practice. I will come back to that.
The Bill also enables the devolution of many other responsibilities, from the management of the Crown Estate’s economic assets in Scotland to the management and operation of reserved tribunals. The Commons also agreed the devolution of abortion policy, which the Smith agreement concluded was an anomalous reservation. There are also significant measures relating to transport and energy.
I want to say something about the fiscal framework, to which my noble friend has alluded, the importance of which is rightly recognised by many of your Lordships. I am particularly grateful for the work done on this by the Economic Affairs Committee. The Government agree with the committee that the relationship between the fiscal framework and the legislative powers in the Bill is critical. It underpins the transfer of tax and welfare powers to Holyrood. The issues raised by the committee’s report are exactly those being addressed in the detailed negotiations between the UK and Scottish Governments. Both Governments have agreed not to provide a running commentary—negotiating in public is not conducive to reaching an agreement.
We are committed to reaching an agreement as soon as we can after tomorrow’s spending review and the draft Scottish budget on 16 December. We cannot guarantee when the negotiations will end—that is not in our gift—and to try unilaterally to set a specific date risks weakening our negotiating position. I hope the House will understand both Governments need time and space to reach an agreement that is right for Scotland and the UK as a whole and is built to last.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
I am sure the House will recognise that, but can the Minister help us? If, during the discussions on the fiscal framework, the Scottish Government’s representatives conclude, as they may well do, that they are better off with a block grant based on the current arrangement of the Barnett formula than raising money through the tax powers on a low tax base, and if they do not accept the proposal from the UK Government on the fiscal framework and the Scottish Parliament fails to give legislative consent to this Bill, what is the Government’s plan B?
Lord Dunlop
I seem to have heard “plan B” somewhere before. I say to the noble Lord that we are planning for success here. We working for success and the UK and Scottish Governments are saying the same thing. We are working constructively together to reach an agreement as soon as we can and good progress is being made.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
I would just like to probe a little on the Government’s view that it is unhelpful to have a timeline for this and to envisage potentially indefinite discussions. I heard what the Minister said about unilateral declarations of times being unhelpful, which surprised me because the vow, of which he has spoken very much, unilaterally declared three timetables: St Andrew’s Night, Burns Night and so on. I wonder why the Government have changed their mind. Would it not be helpful at least to have some indication of the timescale in which they would hope to reach agreement? I declare an interest as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, where things tended to drift on for years rather than months.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord. In broad terms, the Scottish Government and the UK Government are working in sync on this. On Friday, the Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, said,
“I think fundamentally we need to make progress on the Scotland Bill so that the Scottish Parliament can take its final decision on whether the bill is to be adopted before we get to the Scottish Parliament elections next May”.
Our firm intention is for the fiscal framework to be available to both Parliaments before the Bill completes its passage.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way; he has been very generous. One of my concerns following what he has just said is that we are going to be legislating in this Chamber on a wing and a prayer. I have taken Finance Bills through the other place. Changes to taxation have to be looked at meticulously because they have an impact on other parts of the taxation system. I can appreciate the difficulty that the Minister is in because of the commitments made by the leaders of the three parties, but I am extremely worried that we will end up taking decisions that we cannot back out of and that will have a negative effective not just on Scotland but on the whole of the United Kingdom. Can he give me any reassurance on this?
Lord Dunlop
As I said, we are working very hard to get this fiscal framework agreed as quickly as we can. This House considered the tax provisions of the previous Scotland Bill on their merits but, when it did so, aspects such as the block grant adjustment had not been agreed, so there is a precedent here. However, as I said, these two processes need to come together, and that is what we are working hard to achieve.
This House will be involved in the normal way if legislation is needed to implement aspects of the framework. To help the House fulfil its scrutiny role, the order of consideration for Committee will ensure that Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill—its tax and welfare clauses—are scrutinised at the end of Committee, giving more time for the negotiations to progress. As I have already said, it is the firm intention of the UK Government that the fiscal framework should be available to both the Scottish Parliament and both Houses of the UK Parliament before the passage of the Scotland Bill is completed. I shall be happy to say more about the fiscal framework in my closing speech and I particularly look forward to listening to what the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, has to say.
The Government believe that the new powers contained in the Smith agreement provide the basis for a stable devolution settlement for Scotland. Both Governments will need to work together to ensure that the powers are used effectively. The powers in the Bill are substantial and offer real opportunities to develop Scottish solutions to Scottish issues. This is not devolution in isolation but part of a broader process that recognises the need to reflect changes in other parts of the UK and that one size does not fit all.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
I get the impression that the Minister is getting towards the end of his speech. If I heard him correctly, he said that he would give an explanation of the second no-detriment principle, and I very much hope that he is going to do that.
Lord Dunlop
I need to make progress, as a lot of noble Lords want to speak. I have a closing speech and will say more about the fiscal framework in response to points made during the debate.
At this stage, let me conclude by saying that I am confident that the settlement agreed by the Smith commission, as set out in the Bill, will show itself in time to be durable. I beg to move.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, this has been a lively debate, to say the least. It has been a good, informed and productive debate, and has demonstrated once again the important role of this House in scrutinising legislation. The House has had the benefit of the experience and wisdom of many of your Lordships who have helped shape the destiny of Scotland over many years—before the Scottish Parliament, at its birth and in the years since—including the noble Lords, Lord Steel and Lord Reid, my noble friend Lord Lang, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and of course my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who delivered another tour de force today. I have to say that the prospect of being given a Glasgow kiss by my noble friend does not bear thinking about. The prospect of spending many hours with him in the coming weeks in Committee is something I hope I can look forward to.
The Scotland Bill implements the Smith commission, and the House has benefited enormously from the participation of the noble Lord, Lord Smith, himself and his fellow commissioner, my noble friend Lady Goldie—two people who were actually in the room as the agreement was reached. I am sure, once again, that the whole House would wish to express thanks to them for their work. I also congratulate, as others have done, my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, on their superb maiden speeches.
A number of viewpoints on the Bill and the Smith commission agreement have been expressed in the debate, and the House has benefited from a broad range of views. Noble Lords have indicated areas of the Bill to which they will return as it proceeds through the House. I am pleased that, whatever the views on the particulars of the Bill, the debate has shown that delivering the Smith commission agreement is a commitment of the three principal UK parties represented in this House and the other place. Indeed, the Government were elected on this commitment, and I am grateful to noble Lords who have recognised this and indicated their support, in particular for the support from the two Front Benches opposite. It is right and proper that the House scrutinises the Bill, and I am sure we will return to many of the points raised in the debate.
I now turn to the points that have been raised. There are so many that I apologise in advance that I will not be able to do justice to them all, but I will try to pick up the main themes that have been raised in the debate. There was some discussion this afternoon and evening about the constitutional provisions. My noble friends Lord Lang and Lord Norton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, mentioned these provisions specifically, as did other noble Lords. The Advocate-General and I look forward to engaging with noble Lords on these matters in more detail in Committee.
Clause 1 delivers paragraph 21 of the Smith commission agreement which sets out that the UK legislation will state that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are permanent institutions. Last September, more than 2 million Scottish people voted to remain part of the United Kingdom and to retain Scotland’s two Parliaments and two Governments. This clause is set within that context and underscores the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government while at the same time remaining loyal to the fundamental principles of the UK’s constitutional arrangements.
This clause states in law that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government are a permanent part of the UK’s constitutional arrangements. The constitution of the UK Parliament cannot bind a successive Parliament. The sovereignty of Parliament remains. The Smith commission’s intention here was not that the constitutional position be changed but that legislation should accurately reflect what the political understanding already is, that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government are permanent parts of the UK’s constitutional arrangements. This clause therefore delivers the Smith commission agreement while respecting the UK’s constitutional arrangements. The amendments made to this clause in the other place put that beyond all doubt.
Clause 2 delivers paragraph 22 of the Smith commission agreement which sets out that the Sewel convention will be put on a statutory footing. The Sewel convention was never intended to change the sovereignty of the UK Parliament—nor was it intended to prevent the UK Parliament from making laws across the United Kingdom. As with Clause 1, the intention of the Smith commission was not that the constitutional position be changed but that legislation reflects accurately what the political understanding already is. Clause 2 simply sets out that where legislation in the UK Parliament relates to a devolved area consent will normally be obtained. Since the Scottish Parliament came into existence, the UK Government have consistently adhered to the Sewel convention. A legislative consent motion is always sought before Westminster passes legislation for Scotland in relation to devolved matters. The practice set out in the devolution guidance note 10 works well and we expect this to continue but if the Smith commission had intended for the guidance note to be placed on a statutory footing it would have specified that and it did not. The convention is that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. The Sewel convention is a political convention which does not give rise to justiciable rights. It is right that this Parliament, while respecting the views of the Scottish Parliament and its right to legislate, continues to be able to legislate for all matters without restriction on its sovereignty.
A number of noble Lords raised the question of a constitutional convention; the arguments have been well rehearsed in this House. This Government are ensuring that we work hard to govern in the interests of one nation and one United Kingdom. It has already been made clear many times before that the Government do not believe that there is a popular demand for a convention. Our priority is to deliver Smith, the St David’s Day agreement and the Stormont House agreement in full.
Another important element of the Smith commission agreement that has been raised—in particular by the noble Lords, Lord Lang and Lord Kirkwood—is the need to improve intergovernmental working. As noble Lords will be aware, historically the arrangements for intergovernmental relations within the United Kingdom have certainly not been perfect. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, drew our attention to this in his personal recommendations and the work of the Constitution Committee of this House, chaired by my noble friend Lord Lang, highlights the value of ongoing evaluation of our formal structures to ensure their relevance. None the less, your Lordships will be aware that there are already many positive examples of intergovernmental working at both bilateral and multilateral levels. I can testify from my own personal experience that whatever the public differences, the two Governments work constructively together on a whole range of issues. A good practical example of improved intergovernmental working is the joint ministerial group on welfare which was established to provide a forum for discussion to ensure the effective implementation of welfare-related aspects of the Smith agreement and has facilitated increased engagement. This group is tackling the practical issues of implementation, and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, talked about concurrent powers. A good example of this close working is on the universal credit flexibilities in the Bill.
In addition, the Prime Minister and the heads of the three devolved Administrations agreed at the Joint Ministerial Committee last December that existing intergovernmental mechanisms should be reviewed. This is an important part of the agreement, and one that this Government take seriously. That work is ongoing, and the outcomes of that review will be considered by the heads of the four Governments at the next plenary meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee. I will of course be happy to update the House with any developments. The Government are clear that positive intergovernmental relations, whether through formal or informal structures, will be absolutely key to making the powers a success for the people of Scotland.
Turning to more specific matters, the Crown Estate has been raised by several noble Lords. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and my noble friend Lord Sanderson raised the issue of whether the Bill should provide for further double devolution of Crown Estate management. The Smith commission agreement stated that following the transfer of the management of the Crown Estate’s Scottish assets, responsibility for the management of those assets would be further devolved to local authority areas.
Further devolution within Scotland is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to determine. Clause 34 enables the Scottish Parliament to make its own legislation about the management of the Crown Estate in Scotland after the transfer—and beforehand, should it wish to have arrangements in place in readiness for the transfer. It would not be in keeping with the principle or spirit of devolution for the UK Parliament to determine how the management of the Crown Estate in Scotland should be further devolved.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, also raised concerns that the management is being transferred to a political body. The Bill provides for the transfer of the management of the Scottish assets to Scottish Ministers or to a person nominated by them. I would expect the Scottish Government to want an arm’s-length body to take over the management, but it will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament to decide. This is not entirely dissimilar to the current arrangements. The current managers of the Crown Estate are the Crown Estate commissioners, which is an independent commercial organisation established under statute. It is not an instrument of government policy; nevertheless, it is a public body. The Treasury is its sponsor department and has general oversight of the Crown Estate’s business.
I turn to the fiscal framework and the timing of Committee. Noble Lords’ important points about the fiscal framework and the next stages of the Bill’s passage through this House have been a consistent thread running throughout the debate. I reaffirm my thanks to the Economic Affairs Committee and the Constitution Committee of this House for their reports —in particular to the noble Lords, Lord Lang and Lord Hollick, who set out so clearly the conclusions of their committees. I can, however, reassure noble Lords, as I said in my opening speech, that the negotiations absolutely address the issues raised in the Economic Affairs Committee report, including the point raised by my noble friend Lord Sanderson about the robustness of the independent fiscal scrutiny.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth raised the second no-detriment principle, and the Smith agreement says that there should be:
“No detriment as a result of UK Government or Scottish Government policy”.
The negotiations between the UK and Scottish Governments are discussing how this principle and others outlined in the Smith agreement can be applied in practice. This is all about fiscal responsibility and a proper allocation of risk between the UK Government and the Scottish Government, so that the Scottish Government reap the rewards of good policy choices and accept the costs and consequences of poor ones. This is not just an objective of the UK Government. John Swinney has said publicly that that is his objective, too. He said recently before the Scottish Parliament’s Finance Committee:
“Scotland should retain the rewards of her success in the same way as we must bear the risks of the policies and actions that we pursue”.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
Before the Minister leaves this subject, let us get to the heart of the matter. The thread that has been running through tonight’s discussions has not been about the coherence or otherwise of each individual element of the fiscal framework. It has been the question of whether this Parliament can possibly proceed with the Bill without knowing the fiscal framework that is the crucial, central element that determines all its other aspects, particularly in view of the fact that the Scottish Parliament has, very sensibly, under the leadership of the SNP, taken the view that it cannot and will not ratify the terms of the Bill without first knowing the fiscal framework. That is the question—not any individual, tactical item of the framework, but whether we are flying blind. Will the Minister therefore address the question that I put to my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench, which he generously offered to share with the Minister: why is it that, if we can envisage simultaneous negotiations outside Parliament with proceedings inside Parliament, we cannot envisage simultaneous conduct and conclusion of the Bill, including the financial framework, on terms that the Scottish Parliament itself thinks are reasonable? Would he respond to that? I hope he will say that he will inject this into the cordial and constructive negotiations that are going on, but if he is not prepared to do that, will he tell us why not? Is this just a matter of parliamentary timetabling, or is there some matter of principle that the Scottish Parliament should be encouraged and permitted to make a decision in the full light of all the facts while the British Parliament should be asked to make a decision with half the facts missing?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord anticipated what I was going to talk about. He is always very prescient about these matters. I want to explain why the Government believe that the Bill can proceed without delay and without compromising the detailed scrutiny of the fiscal framework, which Parliament rightly expects to carry out. First, there are the practicalities around delivering the promises that we made. People in Scotland made a decisive choice to remain part of the United Kingdom. They voted for a more powerful Scottish Parliament with the strength that comes from our union of nations. To achieve this, voters in Scotland will expect to go to the polls next May knowing what powers the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government will have, so they can cast their votes knowing how the parties will use those powers.
It is important to get the Scotland Bill to Royal Assent before the Scottish Parliament elections next year. A number of noble Lords have made that point in this debate. That is for a very good reason. It is not just a political priority for the Government. I believe—this has been confirmed in the debate today—it is a priority shared by the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, too. If we seek to delay the Bill now, it will be very difficult to meet that timetable, which is one that Scottish voters expect and one that the UK Parliament has adhered to every step of the way so far.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am very grateful to the Minister for picking up the question of when we will see the fiscal framework. Everyone without exception said that it was really required. Will he explain what he means when he says that the Bill must “be there” before the Scottish elections? Does he literally mean the Scottish elections, or does he mean when purdah starts before the Scottish elections? Is the deadline the first Thursday in May or the last week or March?
Lord Dunlop
To answer the noble and learned Lord’s last point, we absolutely need the Act by the time the Scottish Parliament breaks for the election.
The second point I wanted to make is on ensuring that the fiscal framework receives detailed scrutiny. There has been widespread support around the House for that concept. I reassure noble Lords that both Governments aim to complete the framework as soon as possible to give both the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament time for due consideration of it. As mentioned by several noble Lords, the Government will keep updating Parliament after each negotiation session, as we have done. We will invite all relevant committees to look at the framework, including Lords committees and the Scottish Affairs Committee in the Commons. We will welcome their comments.
If legislation is needed to implement the framework, both Houses would be involved in that in the normal ways. There was such legislation in 2012, with primary legislation debated in both Houses. As I said in my opening speech and reaffirm now, the Government’s firm intention is for the fiscal framework to be available to the Scottish Parliament and both Houses of this Parliament before the Bill completes its passage. In response to my noble friend Lord Griffiths, I confirm that the intention is for this to be a detailed written agreement.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Forgive me but, as I mentioned in my speech, my noble friend answered a Written Question in July saying that he expected the fiscal framework to proceed in parallel with the consideration in both Houses. He told us that the relations with the Scottish Government are very cordial and doing well. Why, then, is it taking so long to reach agreement? I listened to his words very carefully. Is he saying that he would be prepared for this Bill to complete all its stages without the fiscal framework being known because it is just so politically important to have it on the statute book before the elections? I cannot believe that he is.
Lord Dunlop
On my noble friend’s first point, it has been evident from the debate today that the framework is of critical importance. It raises very complex issues that need to be worked through to get it right. That is exactly what we are doing. I repeat what I said: the Government’s firm intention is for the fiscal framework to be available to the Scottish Parliament and both Houses of this Parliament before the Bill completes its passage. Clearly, a range of procedural options are available. We will need to consider them nearer the time in light of how negotiations progress.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I would be grateful for further clarification from the Minister because he said, I think, in the very useful briefing he gave for Peers last week, “If the fiscal framework gives rise to further legislation”. Could he elaborate on what he has in mind there? What kind of legislation would that be? Would it be amendments to this Bill, or fresh primary or second legislation?
Lord Dunlop
That all depends on what is agreed in the fiscal framework. For example, if you look at the last Scotland Bill, there were issues to do with borrowing that needed to be put in primary legislation. The outcome of the fiscal framework will determine what legislation we need to underpin that.
The third point I wanted to make was on the legitimacy of the process. Given the degree of cross-party consensus on the devolution of further powers to Scotland, whatever the result of the general election in May there would have been a UK government Minister standing here arguing for the Smith agreement to be implemented in full. That is the nature of the cross-party agreement. The Scotland Bill and delivering the Smith commission agreement in full was, as I said, a manifesto commitment of all three UK parties. Against that background, I ask the House to consider how it would play with voters of Scotland, six months out from important Holyrood elections, if your Lordships were seen to hold up the passage of this Bill.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I wonder if the Minister could answer the question I asked right at the start. I have waited patiently for the last seven hours for him to do so. If there is no agreement on the fiscal framework —that is entirely possible—and, as a result of that, the Scottish Parliament refuses to give consent to this Bill, what is his alternative?
Lord Dunlop
I am afraid that I am going to give to the noble Lord the same response that I gave earlier. We are working very hard to get a success and an agreement on this fiscal framework.
I think that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was one of those who suggested that the Scottish Government do not want a fiscal framework agreed or to take on the new powers in this Bill. I do not accept that—and I have to say that I think there has been a tension in this debate. On the one hand, the noble Lord, Lord Lang, and others, have called for improving intergovernmental relations and, on the other hand, we have heard it said that actually we should not trust the Scottish Government. We have to operate on the basis that the Scottish Government are negotiating in good faith.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Could the Minister answer the question that I put to the noble Lord, Lord Smith? John Swinney signed the Smith agreement, which was meant to be agreed by all parties. Then he came out immediately and denounced it. How can you describe that as good faith?
Lord Dunlop
I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, answered that question very well. He put it in the context of an agreement, every aspect of which they signed up to—but, clearly, the SNP is a party that believes in independence, and therefore the whole context should be seen in that light.
The Deputy First Minister has agreed that finalising the fiscal framework is essential to delivering the Smith commission proposals. To touch on what the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said earlier, in the debate, he has spoken to both Governments and is confident that talks will deliver a fiscal framework in line with the principles set out in the agreement. As I said in my opening speech, talks have been constructive. We have agreed every step jointly with the Scottish Government and are working hard to agree a fiscal framework that is built to last, and is fair for Scotland and for the UK as a whole.
Lord Gordon of Strathblane
Without in any way wishing to hold up the Bill, is it not possible to increase the work rate of those working on the fiscal agreement? Meeting once a month seems pretty leisurely to me.
Lord Dunlop
I assure the noble Lord that these are ministerial meetings of the Joint Exchequer Committee. In between those meetings, very intensive work is going on to agree the fiscal framework. If, unlike me, you believe—
Lord Purvis of Tweed
I know that the hour is late and do not want to prolong the debate, but could the Minister address the question that I put in my speech? What standing will the agreement or framework have? Is it a revision of the statement of funding policy, which is a Treasury policy, or will it be a stand-alone agreement between the two Administrations? What standing will that have, as a document, and will it require ratification by the Scottish Parliament, which obviously involves a timetable entirely in its hands?
Lord Dunlop
The Deputy First Minister has made it clear that, for the Scottish Parliament to give its legislative consent to the Bill, it would have to be satisfied that there was an agreed fiscal framework in place.
I return to the argument that I was making. If, unlike me, you believe that the Scottish Government are not serious about reaching agreement, that is not a good reason to delay the Bill—far from it. Doing so would hand the Scottish Government a get-out-of-jail-free card, which is not right for the people of Scotland, who expect these powers to be implemented.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Could the Minister explain to me—perhaps I am being a bit thick—whether he thinks that the Scottish Parliament is right to insist on considering the Bill with a fiscal framework? I do. If so, why does he think that it is okay to have the House of Commons consider it without the fiscal framework and, perhaps, to have this House consider it without the fiscal framework?
Lord Dunlop
As has been clear from everything I have been saying, we want to get a fiscal framework agreed so that this House and the House of Commons can look at that agreement. This is what we are working to achieve.
The Smith commission secured the cross-party agreement of all five of Scotland’s political parties. The parties subsequently included manifesto commitments to deliver it and supported the introduction of the Scotland Bill. While there are those in the other place who do not consider the Scotland Bill goes far enough, there is support for it and for further powers for the Scottish Parliament. As the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, pointed out, the nationalists like nothing better than to talk about process. We want political debate in Scotland to move on to a debate about policy and how the powers in this Bill that rebalance the devolution settlement by reintroducing real fiscal responsibility to the Scottish Parliament will be used. The Government look forward to engaging with this in full and I commend this Bill to the House.
Lord Hollick
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. In particular, there have been two outstanding maiden speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, and from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. As one of the few English speakers in the debate, it was a privilege for me to hear our Scottish brothers and sisters—all part of the union, I am pleased to say—making such fine speeches, analysing the issues very well and intervening in a pugnacious way—all laced with good humour. It has been a privilege to be part of it.
I think the Minister has struggled to answer the question which has been put to him on a number of occasions. He has heard everybody in the House say that the fiscal framework is necessary for the proper scrutiny of the Bill. I think he accepts this. If the fiscal framework is delayed—and it has been delayed so far—what steps will the Government take to ensure that both Houses of Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in the light of the fiscal framework?
My noble friend Lord Reid has come up with an interesting proposal. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has intervened on a number of occasions. The question still hangs in the air and it is one that we will continue to follow closely. If the fiscal framework is not available and the Government seek to pass this legislation, this House will need to look at it very carefully, because I do not think it is the wish of this House. It may well be, on that occasion, that the House will need to divide and give its decision. On this occasion I do not think that is necessary. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Northern Ireland (Elections) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2015
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the draft Order laid before the House on 2 November be approved.
Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, this statutory instrument, the Northern Ireland (Elections) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2015, makes a number of changes to the legislative framework for Northern Ireland elections. Some are minor administrative points, and I will focus on the two most substantive provisions.
The draft order makes provision to allow the retention of certain entries on the Northern Ireland electoral register for a further year. Northern Ireland is unique within the UK in that it does not hold an annual canvass to refresh its register. Since 2006, the register in Northern Ireland has been maintained not via a canvass but through a system of continuous registration which relies on cross-checking electoral data against prescribed official data streams. This approach is possible because all electoral registration in Northern Ireland has been individual registration rather than household registration since 2002.
Following the last full Northern Ireland canvass in 2013, provision was made to retain some entries on the register where the individuals in question had not returned the canvass form but where the Chief Electoral Officer had no reason to question the validity of their entry. The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland was able to assess the validity of entries for these non-respondents, as all the individuals in question were individually registered and the electoral office’s data-checking facility with both DWP and health service records allows a high level of assurance on people’s current address and other key information.
Let me be clear that the entries that relate to these non-respondents were all checked after the 2013 canvass and have been continuously checked since then in response to alerts from other government data sources. The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland receives regular updates of data from a variety of official sources, including the DWP, the Registrar-General and Business Services Organisation. BSO holds all the details of individuals on GP and dentist lists in Northern Ireland. If there is an inconsistency between the data on the register and that received from the other data sources, the electoral office issues chasing letters to the individual and then a final warning. If the individual does not respond, they are removed from the register.
Of the 112,000 registered electors who did not respond to the 2013 canvass, about 10,000 have been removed from the register and more than 20,000 have been successfully re-registered. Approximately 82,000 voters are therefore affected by the provision we are considering today. The original provision made in 2013 to retain these particular entries on the register was for two years and will expire at the beginning of December this year when the new register is published. However, it was always the intention that the retained entries should not be removed in advance of the next Northern Ireland Assembly elections. Due to the clash of the parliamentary general election and the Assembly election which was originally scheduled for 2015, the date of the Assembly election was postponed until May 2016. That postponement is the reason we need the extension of these provisions for one further year.
Both the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland share the Government’s view that the retention of these entries for a further year is desirable in the context of the continuous registration system employed in Northern Ireland. We fully intend that this will be the final provision made to retain non-respondent voters. We propose to introduce digital registration in Northern Ireland in 2016, and in the context of easier online registration and the publicity associated with its introduction, non-respondent voters will be given clear notice that they will come off the register in December 2016 if they do not take action.
The second substantive provision made by this order is to allow the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland not to be guilty of an offence if they take steps to fully correct procedural errors made at Assembly elections that would otherwise be a breach of their official duty. Currently, for all Northern Ireland elections, with the exception of those for the Assembly, the relevant legislation provides for the Chief Electoral Officer not to be guilty of an offence if they take steps to remedy in full an administrative error or omission. The order will correct this anomaly and bring the provision in respect of Assembly elections into line with the provisions for parliamentary, European and local elections in Northern Ireland. Although this is an electoral matter, which is therefore not devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, it tangentially touches on criminal justice matters. Your Lordships will wish to know that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Ben Wallace, has written to the Northern Ireland Minister for Justice to inform him of our intentions in this as a matter of courtesy.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Tyler, Lord Bew, Lord Kennedy and Lord Empey, for their contributions. The noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Kennedy, have reminded us of the recent debate over the end of transition to individual electoral registration in Great Britain, particularly regarding the concerns that they have over the impact on GB registers of removing the remaining carry-forward entries this December as opposed to in December 2016. However, what we are considering today are provisions for Northern Ireland alone, and I do not propose to rehearse the arguments and merits of what was determined in that case for Great Britain.
The fact is that the framework in place for ensuring the integrity of the Northern Ireland register is entirely different from that for Great Britain. In Great Britain, we are moving away from household registration and have decided not to carry forward entries that are not IER-registered by this December. We are acting to tackle concerns about ghost entries that the system of household registration gave rise to.
In Northern Ireland we have had individual registration for well over a decade. Every elector on the Northern Ireland register is individually registered. Because Northern Ireland does not have an annual canvass but instead checks entries through data streams, we can and do check the validity of non-respondents.
Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different systems for registration. We believe that there is merit in retaining these individuals on the Northern Ireland register, but that it is simply not appropriate in the case of Great Britain to retain non-IER-registered entries that have not been validity-checked and have not responded to the sustained programme of contact that GB councils have carried out. The chief electoral officer has made it clear that he has no reason to think that non-respondents retained on the Northern Ireland register are anything other than eligible voters. Given the framework of individual registration and data checking in place in Northern Ireland and the current expectation of voters and activists alike that non-respondents who have been validity-checked will remain on the register for the Assembly elections, I urge noble Lords to support this order and the range of provisions in it. I therefore commend this order to the House.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Before the Minister sits down, I remind him that I put a number of points to him about when these decisions were taken—whether before or after 27 October—on what he knew when he was voting on 27 October and with regard to timelines. He has not addressed them at all in his response.
Lord Dunlop
I do not have that information, but I am happy to write to the noble Lord.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, despite the advice of the Companion, on 27 October I was denied the opportunity to reply to the debate on my Motion or even to indicate whether I wished to withdraw the Motion or to test the opinion of the House. It seems to be my fate that this evening when I do not need it, I am getting that opportunity. As I shall explain, I do not intend to press this amendment to a Division.
If in Northern Ireland the process that has been described well by a number of colleagues is so much better and does not need an annual canvass, why do the Government not introduce those improvements instead of creating the entirely phoney spectre of ghost voters, as they did when they were dealing with England, Wales and Scotland? The Government have shown themselves to be adopting double standards on this issue. That does no credit to Ministers or indeed to the House or to the Government themselves.
This particular order is much more helpful than the one that we were addressing last month, and I support it. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Northern Ireland: Political Agreement
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, I would like to make a Statement on the agreement reached this week in the cross-party talks at Stormont. But first I would like to pay tribute to Peter Robinson, who announced this morning that he will soon be standing down as First Minister and leader of the DUP. Peter has been a central figure in Northern Ireland politics for over four decades. In his long and distinguished record of public service both in this House and the Assembly, he has championed the interests of Northern Ireland with unparalleled effectiveness, determination and dedication. Peter was key to the agreement reached this week and he can be rightly proud of his contribution. I am sure the whole House will join me in wishing him a long and happy retirement.
Last December, the Stormont House agreement was reached after 11 weeks of negotiations between the five largest Northern Ireland parties and the UK and Irish Governments. That agreement addressed some of the most difficult challenges facing Northern Ireland, including: the finances of the devolved Executive; welfare reform; flags and parades; the legacy of the past; and reform of the Assembly to make devolution work better. All of this was underpinned by a financial package from the UK Government that would give the Executive £2 billion in extra spending power.
In the Government’s view, the Stormont House agreement was, and remains, a good deal for Northern Ireland. By the summer, however, it was clear that implementation had stalled. There were strong differences of opinion within the Executive over the budget and the implementation of the welfare aspects of the agreement, and these were preventing other elements of the agreement going forward. We were facing a deadlock, which, left unresolved, would have made early Assembly elections more and more likely, with an ever-increasing risk that the collapse of devolution would follow. After all that has been achieved in Northern Ireland over recent years, a return to direct rule from Westminster would have been a severe setback, and it is an outcome which I have been striving to avoid.
In August, a second issue arose to threaten the stability and survival of devolution. The suspected involvement of members of the Provisional IRA in a murder in Belfast raised the spectre of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland and its malign and unacceptable impact on society. Faced with these circumstances, we concluded it was necessary to convene a fresh round of cross-party talks with the five main Northern Ireland parties, and the Irish Government on matters for which they have responsibility, observing the well-established three-strand approach.
The talks began on 8 September and ran for 10 weeks. The objectives we set were twofold: first, to secure the implementation of the Stormont House agreement; and, secondly, to deal with continued paramilitary activity. I believe that the document published on Tuesday, A Fresh Start: The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan, makes real progress towards fulfilling both these objectives. Crucially, it tackles the two issues that have posed the greatest threat to the stability and survival of devolution in Northern Ireland.
First, on the Stormont House agreement, the new agreement will help give the Executive a stable and sustainable budget, assisted by further financial support of around £500 million from the UK Government. These funds are to help the Executive tackle issues unique to Northern Ireland. They include support for their programme of removing so-called peace walls and an additional £160 million to assist the Police Service of Northern Ireland in its efforts to combat the threat from dissident republican terrorists. The package also paves the way for completion of the devolution of corporation tax powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, something which could have a genuinely transformative effect on the Northern Ireland economy. The measures in the Stormont House agreement designed to address issues around flags and parades will now go ahead. There is also agreement on reforms to the Executive and Assembly to make devolution work better, including on the size of the Assembly, the number of government departments, use of the petition of concern and provision for an Official Opposition.
Secondly, the agreement takes Northern Ireland’s leaders further than ever before on paramilitary activity. It strongly reaffirms the commitment to upholding the rule of law and makes it absolutely clear that in no circumstances will paramilitary activity be tolerated. The agreement places new shared obligations on executive Ministers to work together towards ridding society of all paramilitary groups and actively challenging paramilitary activity in all its forms, and commits all participants to a concerted and enhanced effort to combat organised and cross-border crime, which the UK Government will help to fund.
A key element of the Stormont House agreement on which we were unable to agree a way forward was the establishment of new bodies to deal with the past. We did establish common ground between the parties on a range of significant questions on how to establish these important new structures but, sadly, not enough to enable legislation to go forward as yet. The Government continue to support these provisions because of the pressing need to provide better outcomes for victims and survivors—the people who, we must never forget, have suffered more than anyone else as a result of the Troubles. So it is crucial that we all now reflect on what needs to be done to achieve wider consensus to get the new legacy bodies set up.
I want to emphasise that in very large part, the agreement takes on board a wide range of points made by all five Northern Ireland parties during the 10 weeks of talks that have just concluded. As the overwhelming majority of issues were in devolved areas, this agreement has rightly been driven by Northern Ireland’s elected leaders, in particular the First and Deputy First Ministers. I reiterate my sincere thanks to them and to all the five parties which worked with determination and commitment in the talks. Thanks go, too, to my honourable friend the Northern Ireland Minister and to Ministers Charlie Flanagan and Seán Sherlock from the Irish Government, who devoted many long hours to this process and made an invaluable contribution to its successful outcome.
Implementation of this week’s agreement is already under way. On Tuesday, the Executive voted to support it. Yesterday, the Assembly passed an LCM on welfare reform legislation at Westminster and the Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill will be introduced to Parliament this afternoon. I believe this package as a whole gives us the opportunity for a fresh start for devolution. It is a further stage in delivering the Government’s manifesto commitment to the implementation of the Stormont House agreement. It is another step forward towards a brighter, more secure future for everyone in Northern Ireland, and I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement in your Lordships’ House and endorse fully what has been said about Peter Robinson, who announced overnight that he was stepping down as leader of the DUP. He has played a significant role in Northern Ireland politics for some 40 years.
We welcome the fact that the DUP and Sinn Fein have been able to reach an agreement with the British and Irish Governments, but we are disappointed that the agreement was not more comprehensive. Significantly, the parties were unable to make progress on the fundamental issues arising from the Haass talks in 2013—for example, on parades, flags and dealing with the past. This is a considerable failure for the agreement. However, although the deal has been agreed and will prevent the collapse of the devolved institution, the package of measures is not a comprehensive outcome and does very little to tackle the underlying issues of the divided society in Northern Ireland. The failure of the political parties to come to an agreement on those issues has the potential to undermine public confidence in politics, devolved institutions and the peace process as a whole. It is clear that these issues will have to be settled for the good of everyone in Northern Ireland.
Of course, we welcome any agreement that sustains the Assembly and we are content to support the fast-track welfare Bill. But is it not the case that this agreement does not take us beyond or even, arguably, as far as the Stormont House agreement of 2014? How do the Government propose to assist, or at the very least encourage, the parties to address the unresolved question of flags, parades and the legacy of the past? What further progress can be made towards a genuinely shared future in Northern Ireland? The additional government financial support of £500 million to assist the Executive in tackling issues unique to Northern Ireland, including support for the programme to remove the peace walls, is welcome.
We very much welcome the agreement’s initiative to tackle paramilitarism and organised crime. The new commitment by all politicians to uphold the rule of law is to be strongly welcomed. There is no place in a democratic society for paramilitary activity. We also welcome the additional funding for the PSNI. Can the Minister give further details on how this will be used? Will there be scope for some of this funding to be used for further recruitment of officers to continue to tackle all crimes in Northern Ireland?
Lord Dunlop
I thank noble Lords for their words and for the indication of bipartisan, cross-party support, particularly to get the legislation on welfare reform through this House. I agree very much that the implementation of the deal is absolutely crucial, and we should be in no doubt that the agreement has broken a real impasse in Northern Ireland politics and offered a prospect of a brighter future for Northern Ireland. Critical to this is a thriving economy. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, mentioned this and it will be critical as we go forward. The deal unlocks not just the corporation tax powers but £2 billion of additional spending power that was part of the original Stormont House agreement.
The noble Lord mentioned the need to stop young people being drawn into criminal activity, and I agree very much that that is a crucial part of any strategy to deal with paramilitarism. Of the new money coming forward in this agreement, £25 million will be used to support the strategy to deal with paramilitary activity. Further work is required on the details of the joint agency task force, but it will be underpinned by £160 million extra security funding to make that activity fully effective.
On the importance of dealing with flags, identity, culture and tradition, the agreement makes provision for the creation of a new commission on these matters and on the commitments into which the Northern Ireland Executive has entered. We are all disappointed that it has not been possible to include the institutions that were part of the original Stormont House agreement to deal with the past as part of this agreement. The Government are committed to reflect with the parties the best way to take this forward because, as I said yesterday, victims and their families need to achieve closure in these matters.
I reiterate that I welcome the commitment that the parties opposite will not stand in the way of the welfare reform legislation.
Disclosure was mentioned. It is a tricky issue, and it is important to balance transparency with a duty to ensure that information release must not damage our ability to protect people.
This agreement offers Northern Ireland the prospect of a brighter future, and the important work of detailed implementation now starts.
Lord Trimble (Con)
My Lords, the existence of private armies anywhere within the United Kingdom presents a challenge to the authority of the United Kingdom Government, and responding to the existence of private armies should be with the Government in the lead. Pretty words said in the Executive are all very good and well, but it requires something more effective. The reason that the original Independent Monitoring Commission was effective at dealing with paramilitaries was that it had the power to sanction those bodies. Furthermore, not just the character of the persons who were in it but its independence had the effect of keeping the Northern Ireland Office honest and inhibiting its tendency to brush things under the carpet. We are missing on both those counts.
Lord Dunlop
My noble friend speaks with huge authority on these matters. With regard to paramilitary activity, the assessment done a few weeks ago showed that all parties in Northern Ireland are committed to the political path. Under this agreement, all the parties have signed up to ambitious commitments to eradicate paramilitary activity. A strategy must be agreed. It needs to be backed by the joint agency task force. The monitoring body is a crucial part of this agreement. It will need, at a date in the future, to be given statutory underpinning and will be the subject of an international agreement with the Irish Government.
Lord Eames (CB)
I declare an interest as co-chairman of the Consultative Group on the Past in Northern Ireland, which published its report some years ago. Will the Minister tell us more about the efforts of Her Majesty’s Government to unravel the continuing problem of how we deal with the legacy issues, because so many other issues that he mentioned in the Statement are linked with the way in which we deal with the past? Will he enlighten the House about how the Government propose to tackle that part of the problem?
Lord Dunlop
I am not sure that at this stage I can give more detail than I have already given. The Government are disappointed that creating the institutions to deal with the past does not form part of this agreement. However, it remains a huge priority for the Government to deal with the issues of the past and take forward what was in the original Stormont House agreement to get these institutions set up. I think we can be optimistic that some very intractable issues, such as welfare reform and budgetary issues, have been dealt with in the agreement. That shows what can be achieved with good will and all the parties getting around the table. We need to bring that same spirit to how we take forward the issues that were not included in the agreement, and that will be a high priority for the Government.
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I very much welcome the successful conclusion of the talks and the new fresh start agreement, which sets out a practical course to consolidating peace, stability and helping to promote economic development in Northern Ireland. I, too, pay tribute to my party leader, Peter Robinson, for his tireless work on achieving reconciliation in our community over a number of years.
I particularly welcome the additional security funding of £160 million for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to address the continuing severe national security threat, and to tackle continued paramilitary activity and criminality. However, will the Minister provide clarification about the nature of the severe national security threat and what steps the PSNI will be expected to take to address it?
Lord Dunlop
In this House a few weeks ago we had a Statement about the assessment that had been made. The Government continue to agree with that assessment, and I am not sure that I can add more at this stage to what was said on that occasion. Clearly, though, we are determined to tackle organised criminal activity, which has such a corrosive effect on the well-being of Northern Ireland.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I take this opportunity to wish Mr Robinson well in his retirement. However, I wish to disabuse the House of any idea that this is a five-party agreement. The document was pushed in front of our faces at 3 pm on Tuesday, and that applied to three out of the five parties. The final plenary session of the talks process was one hour later, and no one should be required to absorb a 67-page document in one hour. So let us be clear: this is a two-party agreement, it is less than the one that we had Statements on a year ago and huge areas are unresolved.
Will the Minister address the fact that the reason why we have a huge impasse here is not only that Sinn Fein reneged on the agreement on welfare that was made a year ago but the four consistent years of massive financial mismanagement? We are now faced with the situation that the budgets were known four years ago but no action was taken to meet expenditure on budgets, which meant that for the first time since 1921 Stormont could not balance its books. Secondly, and worse, we are now being allowed to borrow £700 million to pay off 20,000 public sector workers, instead of action having been taken at the time to gradually run things down by natural wastage and other mechanisms that would have cost the taxpayer nothing. Why did the Northern Ireland Office allow this situation to develop, watching millions of pounds of public sector money being squandered and wasted? What steps will the Minister take to ensure that the budget will be operated properly in future and that taxpayers will get value for money?
Lord Dunlop
I thank my noble friend. I note what he says about the position of other parties. All the parties have been engaged over a 10-week process and, as I said, it has broken a very damaging impasse. I hope that all Northern Ireland politicians will want to get behind the agreement and build upon it.
As for the finances, welfare reform and putting the budget on a sustainable footing have been two of the most intractable problems that we have been grappling with. It is important to say that all the new money that is part of this agreement is contingent on the Northern Ireland parties meeting the commitments that they have entered into. The agreement includes spending to save measures and there is no free ride in it. In addition to the implementation of welfare reform, instilling fiscal responsibility into managing the finances of Northern Ireland is critical to the agreement. Additional financial controls are part of the agreement—it is no longer possible to set unrealistic budgets—and it makes provision for a new, independent fiscal council. These are all things that are really important to ensuring that we do not get into the financially risky situation that we have seen over the last few months.
Lord Lexden (Con)
What has been the actual cost of the prolonged welfare stand-off between Stormont and Westminster? When will the paramilitary structures highlighted so worryingly in the report published in September actually be dismantled? Are the Northern Ireland parties now confident that they can handle the consequences of the devolution of corporation tax, which I have long supported?
Lord Dunlop
I cannot give my noble friend precise figures on the cost of welfare reform, but I am very happy to write to him with as much information as I can provide. Clearly, I cannot give a specific date for when paramilitarism will be eradicated from Northern Ireland, but I can give an absolute assurance to this House that this is a top priority for the Government.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned that Sinn Fein was against the welfare changes. To avoid any blame game in the future, will the Minister confirm that all parties, including Sinn Fein, gave the Westminster Government power, through an Order in Council, to pass these welfare changes?
Lord Dunlop
It was a very positive sign of the commitment to see that this agreement goes forward that the Northern Ireland Assembly passed a legislative consent Motion yesterday. That is a very positive development.
Lord Elton (Con)
My Lords, paramilitarism will continue, even if the paramilitary forces are dismantled, for as long as the paramilitary instinct can find recruits among young people. I have some experience in this area and I remind my noble friend that one of the top priorities of young people emerging into adulthood is to achieve an identity of their own. They wish to stop being somebody’s son or somebody’s nephew and want to be themselves. An easy way to do that in times when paramilitarism is rife is simply to undertake acts of criminality, preferably very public and very damaging, whereupon they cease to be Paddy’s son or Maeve’s brother and become “a hard man”; they become recognised as somebody to be respected among their equals. Unless we provide them with alternative activity this will go on. It is no good waiting for the economy to pick up and for jobs to bloom; there have to be accredited voluntary organisations giving such people meaningful, constructive things to do. I hope that my noble friend will see that this is treated as a priority.
Lord Dunlop
My noble friend has great experience of these matters and I agree very much with what he says. Community groups and organisations have a big part to play in creating a more prosperous, more stable future for Northern Ireland and we will certainly do what we can to support those groups.
Northern Ireland
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, with permission, I will repeat an Answer to an Urgent Question asked by Sir Gerald Howarth MP in the House of Commons earlier today. The Statement is as follows:
“As part of an ongoing investigation by the Police Service of Northern Ireland into the events surrounding Bloody Sunday in Londonderry in 1972, a former soldier was arrested for questioning on 10 November 2015. He was subsequently released on bail.
Criminal investigations and prosecutions are a matter for the police and prosecuting authorities, who act independently of government. The Government cannot therefore comment on an individual case.
This Government are committed to the rule of law. Where there is evidence of wrongdoing, it is right that it should be investigated.
We remain unstinting in our admiration and support for the men and women of the police and Armed Forces whose sacrifice ensured that terrorism would never succeed in Northern Ireland and that its future would only ever be determined by democracy and consent.
Whether the current investigations will lead to criminal prosecution is a matter for the police and prosecuting authorities in Northern Ireland. The overwhelming majority of armed services personnel carried out their duties with courage, professionalism and integrity. This Government will never forget the debt of gratitude that we owe to them”.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer given in the other place. As my honourable friend Vernon Coaker said there, it is only right and proper at this time to pay tribute to our Armed Forces, who are at this very moment engaged in defending our freedoms and are in harm’s way. They operate to the very highest standards and we should always remember the difficult circumstances in which they serve. That is why it is always difficult to criticise our Armed Forces if they fall below these high standards, but we cannot and must not fail to do so if evidence of wrongdoing should exist. The Saville inquiry of 2010 was clear. As the Prime Minister said at that time in his Statement to the House,
“there is no doubt; there is nothing equivocal; there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/10; col. 739.]
He also apologised on behalf of the British Government. The whole report makes very uncomfortable reading for all of us, and none of us should ever forget the victims and families of those who were killed both on Bloody Sunday and throughout Northern Ireland on so many other occasions.
Can the Minister confirm that evidence given at the Saville inquiry is precluded from being used in any court proceedings against a particular individual? Can he confirm that the arrest of Soldier J was based on evidence gathered since January 2014 by the PSNI, which has announced a new investigation? The PSNI has said that there will be no further arrests until the results of a judicial review brought by other affected soldiers has concluded. Can the Minister tell us when he expects this judicial review to be concluded? Can he also tell us what work the Northern Ireland Office is undertaking pending the outcome of that judicial review?
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord for his words and will take each of his points in turn. Yes, I can confirm that evidence given to Saville cannot be used to incriminate the person who gives it; the evidence is protected. On the specific case, it would not be appropriate for me to comment; it is a subject of an ongoing criminal investigation and the question of arrest is a matter for the PSNI. With regard to the ongoing legal proceedings, again, I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to comment, but I understand that the PSNI is committed to not making any further arrests in relation to Bloody Sunday until the outcome of those legal proceedings.
Lord Glentoran (Con)
I have two points to make, First, I had a private meeting with Martin McGuinness soon after the Prime Minister’s apology to find out how the apology had gone down in Londonderry. He assured me that it had been very welcome and had been accepted. Secondly, Bloody Sunday—I was living there at the time—was very early in what we loosely call the Troubled times. There had not been much time for training and briefing of soldiers. The Paras are briefed and trained as an aggressive attack force. It was just very unfortunate that they were committed to Bloody Sunday.
Lord Dunlop
I thank my noble friend. When the Prime Minister made his Statement, I think that it was widely welcomed for the tone that it struck. I very much note my noble friend’s other point.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, while it is of course important in any case to follow the evidence wherever it takes the authorities, and even though the mills of justice often grind exceeding slow—in this case, we are talking about events of almost 50 years ago—does the Minister agree that it is extremely important in these circumstances for the police, the press and people generally to understand that an arrest is not a conviction? We have the experience in recent times of a whole series of arrests by the PSNI which led to a political crisis we are still trying to find our way through in Northern Ireland, and all of those arrested have been released without charge. Is it not important to point out that the same is the case in respect of this soldier—that an arrest is not a conviction and assumptions should not be built on it until the proper processes are proceeded with?
Lord Dunlop
I very much agree with the noble Lord. I absolutely agree that an investigation is not the same as a prosecution. Indeed, an investigation is also an opportunity for someone to clear their name.
Lord Trimble (Con)
My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to a potential anomaly. I am not talking about this individual’s case. If, out of all of the proceedings of the Saville inquiry, any charges are brought and a conviction obtained, the person convicted will not be able to apply for early release under the terms of the Belfast agreement. I do not know why the authorities, in drafting that scheme, put a starting date of after 30 January 1972. It was never a matter of discussion and I was not aware of it until long after the agreement. However, it is there and I am making this point because, if this anomaly arises, steps should be taken to ensure that the person is treated in the same way as other persons convicted of criminal offences during the Troubles. It would be wrong to treat people in similar cases to this person’s case in a worse way.
Lord Dunlop
I thank my noble friend and note what he says. I will ensure that his views are reflected to the appropriate people.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. One other aspect worries me. I understand that the witnesses to the Saville inquiry were promised anonymity. On this occasion, three police cars turned up at this man’s house in Antrim to arrest someone who had indicated that he was willing to go to the police station of his own accord and give evidence. I hope that this matter is taken up because it is obviously worrying and may be extremely dangerous for him and his family.
Lord Dunlop
I note what my noble friend has said. His point was also raised in the other place earlier today and the Minister said that if there were concerns about the way in which the arrest happened, the matter should be taken up with the chief constable.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, as a Member of this House from Londonderry who lived through some of the difficult years in that city, it is important to say that we have now moved on to a better place. Sometimes when an atrocity such as this once again raises its ugly head, we forget where we have come from. I believe that in the city of Londonderry we have moved on from issues that were difficult many years ago. I agree that we should never forget the sacrifices of the security forces in protecting the people of Northern Ireland through a bloody terrorist campaign.
There was a clear belief when the Prime Minister apologised to the families of the victims of Bloody Sunday that that would more or less draw a line under it and we could all move on. Obviously that has not happened. I agree that no one should be above the law and that the police should be allowed to do their job irrespective of who the person may be.
Does the Minister agree that the new Stormont agreement announced yesterday is an important turning point for Northern Ireland? There have been five attempts to resolve the legacy issues of the past but, for whatever reason, all political parties in Northern Ireland are finding it difficult to get a resolution to the past. While we cannot get that resolution at this minute in time, it creates problems in legacy cases such as this and in dealing with the past. Will the Government and the parties continue to try to resolve this issue because, if we can, we can move Northern Ireland forward to a better place?
Lord Dunlop
The agreement that was reached yesterday was a significant achievement. I am sure the whole House will wish to congratulate all the Northern Ireland parties on reaching that deal. It has broken an impasse and created the opportunity to develop devolved institutions that work for the people in Northern Ireland. As the Minister in the other place said, it is a matter of regret that legacy was not part of the deal. We must find ways to take these matters forward and give victims and their families closure and see justice served. The Government stand ready to play their part in that process.
Northern Ireland: Paramilitary Groups
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows.
“With permission, I would like to make a Statement on the assessment of the structure, roles and purpose of paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland, which I am publishing today and placing copies of in the Library of the House.
Before I turn to the assessment, it is worth reminding the House of the phenomenal progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years. We have moved on from a time when terrorism was an almost daily fact of life to one where the overwhelming majority have completely rejected violence as a means of trying to secure political ends.
The political settlement which sees people who were once enemies working together for the good of the whole community has transformed life for the better. However, as the murders of Gerard Davison and Kevin McGuigan have highlighted, there are still serious legacy issues that need to be addressed, and that includes the structure, role and purpose of paramilitary groups.
I commissioned an assessment of those matters following the statement in August by the Police Service of Northern Ireland that a line of inquiry in relation to the murder of Kevin McGuigan was the involvement of members of the Provisional IRA. The assessment has been jointly drafted by the PSNI and MI5, drawing on current intelligence, and has been reviewed by three independent figures: Lord Carlile QC, Rosalie Flanagan, and Stephen Shaw QC.
The reviewers have confirmed today that the PSNI and MI5 engaged fully with them, consistent with their duties and constraints, and that the assessments were, in their words, ‘fair and balanced’, ‘evidence-based’ and ‘credible’. The reviewers state that they are,
‘satisfied that the assessments meet all the requirements placed upon us’.
I wish to thank PSNI, MI5 and the independent reviewers for carrying out this important work within the timeframe I gave them.
I would like to set out the Government’s position on paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland. Paramilitary organisations have no place in a democratic society. They were never justified in the past, they are not justified today and they should disband. These organisations brought misery and suffering throughout the 30 years of the Troubles. Together, they were responsible for over 3,000 murders, with thousands more injured.
Only last week a service was held to mark the 25th anniversary of the IRA murder of that great champion of freedom and democracy, Ian Gow, and today I believe that the thoughts of the House should be with all those who suffered directly at the hands of paramilitary organisations. We should be mindful that, thanks in large part to the efforts of the police and our Armed Forces, along with the determination of the overwhelming majority of people across these islands, the future of Northern Ireland will only ever be determined by democracy and consent.
The assessment sets out the position in respect of those organisations which declared ceasefires in order to support and facilitate the political process. It does not cover in any detail the threat posed by dissident republican groupings, which is the subject of separate, regular reports that I make to the House. The assessment does, though, confirm that dissident republicans remain a severe threat and that at any given time a terrorist attack from them is highly likely. For our part, the Government will always give the police and security services the fullest possible backing in their efforts to keep people in Northern Ireland safe and secure.
The assessment confirms that all the main paramilitary groups operating during the Troubles are still in existence, including the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Red Hand Commando, the Ulster Defence Association, the Provisional IRA and the INLA. On structures, the assessment says that:
‘The majority of paramilitary organisations in this report still have leadership structures’,
and,
‘organise themselves along militaristic lines’.
It goes on to say:
‘These labels make the groups look more prepared for a campaign of violence than they are’,
and that,
‘in the highly unlikely event that the groups were minded to return to terrorism, we judge they would be unable to resurrect the capability demonstrated at their peak’.
On role of these groups, the assessment concludes that:
‘None of these groups is planning or conducting terrorist attacks’,
although some INLA members have provided help to DR terrorists. The report also states that:
‘Members of these paramilitary groups continue to engage in violent activity, both directed by local leadership and conducted without sanction’.
It says that,
‘members of all groups have carried out murders since the 1998 Belfast Agreement’.
In addition, the assessment makes it clear that:
‘Members of these paramilitary groups, to different degrees, are also involved in other serious criminal activity. This includes large scale smuggling operations, fuel laundering, drug dealing and extortion’.
Regarding weapons, the assessment says that:
‘Although the majority of paramilitary weapons were decommissioned, some were not’.
On the purpose of these groups, the report concludes that:
‘It is our firm assessment that the leaderships of the main paramilitary groups are committed to peaceful means to achieve their political objectives’,
but that,
‘we judge that individual members of paramilitary groups with a legacy of violent activity still represent a threat to national security’.
The report is in no doubt that these groups,
‘cause serious harm to the communities in which they are embedded and undermine support for policing’.
On the individual groups, the assessment confirms:
‘The structures of the UVF remain in existence and there are some indications of recruitment’.
It states:
‘The UVF’s leadership has attempted to steer its membership towards peaceful initiatives and to carve out a new constructive role in representing the loyalist community’.
However, the assessment goes on to confirm that,
‘a larger number of members, including some senior figures, are extensively involved in organised crime’.
UVF members are also involved in paramilitary assaults. In respect of the UDA, the assessment concludes that while its structures remain in existence they have ‘become increasingly fragmented’ and are split into ‘discrete geographic areas’ that ‘act almost completely autonomously’. The assessment states:
‘With the support of some leadership figures, there are UDA members who have continued attempts to steer the group into positive community-based activism’.
Others, however, remain engaged in criminality and violence, with individual members and some senior figures involved in organised crime, including,
‘drug dealing, robbery, extortion and the distribution of counterfeit and contraband goods’.
There is also involvement in paramilitary assaults, street disorder and violent protest.
In respect of the Provisional IRA, the assessment says:
‘The structures of PIRA remain in existence in a much reduced form’,
including,
‘a senior leadership, the ‘Provisional Army Council’ … and some ‘departments’’.
The authors of the report do not believe that the group is actively recruiting. They state that, while decommissioning took place between 2001 and 2005, the Provisional IRA continues to have access to some weapons. However the assessment judges that,
‘PIRA has not conducted organised procurement of new weaponry in the period since the last IMC report of 2011’.
While the assessment states that,
‘PIRA members believe that the’,
Provisional Army Council,
‘oversees both PIRA and Sinn Fein with an overarching strategy’,
it judges that this has a ‘wholly political focus’. The report points out:
‘Individual PIRA members remain involved in criminal activity, such as large scale smuggling, and there have been isolated incidents of violence, including murders’.
The report concludes that:
‘The PIRA of the Troubles era is well beyond recall. It is our firm assessment that PIRA’s leadership remains committed to the peace process and its aim of achieving a united Ireland by political means. The group is not involved in targeting or conducting terrorist attacks against the state’.
That is a direct quote from the assessment, and I will not seek to hide from the House that much of the assessment makes very uncomfortable reading. These organisations should never have existed in the first place, and 21 years after the first ceasefires, it is clearly unacceptable that they still exist today. For all that, the assessment judges the leaderships of the main paramilitary groups to be committed to peaceful means—such groupings have no place in a democratic society.
Members of these groups continue to exert a malign influence, which, as the assessment puts it,
‘harms communities and damages the financial prosperity and reputation of Northern Ireland’.
Inevitably, a document of this kind does not provide all the answers but I hope it will assist in identifying the nature and scale of the problem, and in framing the debate about the way forward. Working with the main political parties and society more broadly, we need a strategy to lead us to a point where these organisations no longer exist and their influence is removed from Northern Ireland once and for all.
That is one of the two main goals of the talks I am chairing at Stormont, and it is an outcome to which all parties say they are committed. The other goal is to secure the full implementation of the Stormont House agreement. I believe that those talks represent the best chance of making progress on both these crucial issues and the best chance of finding a way forward that builds a brighter, more secure future for everyone in Northern Ireland. We all now need to engage intensively in those talks in the days ahead, and I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, for repeating the Statement; indeed, I also thank the PSNI, MI5 and my noble friend Lord Carlile’s trio for the work they have done. We recognise and remember today that one of the reasons for this Statement is because there are victims and families who we must be thinking about.
Of course, I have not seen the underlying document, but only the Statement which has been repeated today. It states that the main paramilitary groups which operated during the Troubles are still in existence, but that there is a positive in that none of these groups is planning or conducting terrorist attacks and that the leadership of the main paramilitary groups is committed to achieving their political objectives. We should note the word “leadership”. On the negative side the members of these groups—it does not say the leadership—are to different degrees involved in serious criminal activity: large-scale smuggling, fuel laundering, drug dealing and extortion. It is now 17 years since the Belfast agreement and these organisations still exist. They have not been disbanded or wound up or ceased to function. One might ask when that will happen. It seems that those who have previously been involved in paramilitary activity 17 or more years ago still have a sense of fraternity. Can not the Stormont Government and the Irish Government assist the leadership of these organisations to convert these former terrorists into groups of law-abiding old boys’ or comrades’ associations, or turn them into new organisations that do positive work in Northern Ireland?
It would be helpful if the Minister could give us an update, if it is possible, now that the Statement has been aired and published, on what the future is for the Stormont Government and whether we are likely to see a proper resumption of activities there.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lords for their responses and for their continuing support for eradicating from Northern Ireland the scourge of paramilitary activity and providing justice for all of its victims. I am sure that noble Lords from all parts of the House will wish to send a strong message to all of Northern Ireland’s main parties about the need to unite together in a commitment to ending this activity once and for all, to making the democratic institutions in Northern Ireland work effectively again and to resolving the very real political and financial problems that Northern Ireland faces. I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said about trust, the paramount importance of the rule of law and the principle of consent. We must all give the PSNI our full support in the very difficult and important job that it is doing.
I shall address some of the specific points made on the Kevin McGuigan murder. The assessment confirms that the chief constable’s August statement remains valid. I can confirm that the reviewers have been shown classified material. They also had access to individuals who put the assessment together and an opportunity to probe and challenge those authors. I agree with the noble Lord that the assessment does indeed provide a basis for agreement, even if it does not in itself provide all the answers to the many questions that have been raised.
There is now a pressing need for the parties to decide the best way of dealing with paramilitary activity. The assessment will help inform the urgent and intensive discussions that now need to take place. Of course, there have already been extensive discussions between the UK Government, the five parties and the Irish Government on implementing the Stormont House agreement. With regard to the introduction of the legislation, detailed work is still ongoing.
The noble Lord mentioned the loyalist initiative of the Loyalist Communities Council. I think that any initiative that helps to move people from criminality to a more positive way should be welcomed; but as the Secretary of State said in the other place, it must be judged on the results that it produces. In terms of what was said about helping the transition, I think the Secretary of State said in the other place that the assessment provides a mixed picture but some of the aspects in the assessment are not completely negative. I very much agree with what has been said about smuggling and extortion: they have no place in a civilised society.
The priority now is to have these urgent and intensive talks and to get the parties round the table. I hope this assessment will provide an important basis for moving that forward constructively.
Lord Trimble (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the publication of this comprehensive assessment. I ask the Minister to refer to paragraphs 12 and 13. Paragraph 12, with regard to the Provisional IRA, states that,
“some ‘departments’ with specific responsibilities”,
are still in existence. Is it not the case that the team of leading republicans who conducted an inquiry into the killing of Davison—which inquiry led them to conclude that McGuigan was responsible for that, which led then to the killing of McGuigan—were members of one of those departments with specific responsibilities, and it would have been part of their responsibilities to report their actions to the leadership of the republican movement?
With regard to paragraph 13, which refers to large-scale smuggling and other money-raising activities, as has been mentioned, is it not the case that the primary purpose of those criminal activities is to generate income for the republican movement to finance its political focus and objectives? This enables Sinn Fein to have the highest income of any political party in the British Isles. Should we not think about cleaning up this aspect of our political process?
Lord Dunlop
I note very carefully what my noble friend says, but I do not wish to speculate on detail that goes beyond the assessment. I note the conclusions in paragraph 13, which is the important basis on which we need to move forward. We judge that this strategy has a wholly political focus, that the PIRA of the Troubles era is well beyond recall and that PIRA’s leadership remains committed to the peace process. I do not wish to minimise for a minute the challenges that we still have. The important thing is to use this assessment to inform the urgent and intensive discussions that now need to take place among the five parties to resolve and eradicate for ever paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that the PSNI has the tools it needs to do the job? One of the real problems we see in Northern Ireland is that the paramilitary movement is taking on smuggling, drug dealing and that sort of thing. These are areas that the police should be involved in. I am still not convinced that the chief constable and the Police Service of Northern Ireland have all the resources they need to stop what is happening there. If these things were happening over here on the mainland, we would not in all conscience accept that the police could not deal with them. I hope the Minister can give me some assurance that the Government support what the Police Service of Northern Ireland is doing.
Lord Dunlop
We are of course very supportive of what the PSNI is doing. I am sure noble Lords from all parts of the House will want to ensure that the PSNI has all the support it needs to do the very difficult and important job that it has got to do. The UK Government have provided additional funding in the order of £230 million over the last five years. It also highlights the importance of resolving the very pressing budget and welfare issues. That is absolutely crucial to finding the right way through all this.
Baroness Blood (Lab)
My Lords, there is no comfort in this report for the communities of Northern Ireland, as it only reinforces what has been common knowledge in Northern Ireland for many years. But now that we have all this intelligence and it is all known—I follow on from the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris—will the police take further action against these so-called paramilitary groups? When will we be honest and stop calling them paramilitaries? They are criminals: let us stop giving them an importance and a status that is not warranted or, indeed, ever justified.
Lord Dunlop
It is absolutely right that the police need to pursue all leads and follow the evidence wherever it goes, because we want to bring to justice the perpetrators of any criminal actions. The issue is that, in order to bring criminals to justice, we need evidence, and sometimes it is difficult to obtain information from local communities, for reasons that are well known to noble Lords. I agree absolutely with the noble Baroness’s sentiment that we need to bring criminals to justice and leave no stone unturned in that mission.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the Statement and on the tone with which it was delivered, because this matter is fundamental. There will continue to be debates on some of the key points, in particular whether—as the Secretary of State said in the other place—there is no evidence that money obtained by crime is being used for political purposes. If that is true—and I have no evidence to challenge that view—it is the first time in the modern history of the republican movement, provisional or official, that crime has been carried out purely for the individual advantage of members. It will be a real novelty if it is true.
However, the really important thing is what the Minister said at the end of the Statement, when he acknowledged that the assessment does not provide all the answers. The Secretary of State said in the other place that there are still important questions to be asked about paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. That tone is important. We have difficulties in the peace process not because of the dark side of certain developments—which the people of Northern Ireland well understand—but because, at the time of the re-creation of the institutions, certain achievements of the IRA ceasefire were oversold. Claims were made—that there would be no further recruitment, that the IRA had ceased to exist entirely—that, in retrospect, no longer stand up to examination. The people of Northern Ireland are well aware of that.
This is a difficult situation, but it could be got through by the Government maintaining a constantly honest, open and questioning attitude to the realities. That would help the peace process. Does the noble Lord agree?
Lord Dunlop
I very much agree with what the noble Lord said. I do not wish to add to what the Secretary of State said in the other place, but I agree that tone is important—being open, transparent and not shying away from the difficult questions that have to be addressed. That is what the job will be over the coming days as the talks proceed.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I also thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I especially thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and his two colleagues for the work they did in making this assessment.
The assessment clearly states that the Sinn Fein/IRA high command, the Provisional Army Council, remains in existence. It further states that members believe that the Army Council oversees IRA/Sinn Fein strategy. Past Army Council membership included senior Sinn Fein politicians. Do Her Majesty’s Government believe that the current Army Council includes Sinn Fein politicians? Further, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, what is the Government’s assessment of the role and purpose of the PIRA departments, as emphasised in the assessment?
Lord Dunlop
I echo what was said about the reviewers. They bring great experience and integrity to the job they were given. The links between PIRA and Sinn Fein are long-standing and well known. As I said, I do not wish to speculate on further detail beyond what is in the assessment.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I also welcome the Statement. It certainly gives us further insight into paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland and its structures, more than anything else. Some of us in this House certainly did not need a report to tell us that paramilitary structures are still very much there in Northern Ireland. Also, it is important that we say it clears the chief constable when he said a number of weeks ago that paramilitary organisations still exist and the IRA were involved in the murder of Mr McGuigan. It is important that that is repeated.
On the issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, raised, I have to say that we do give them a platform if we describe them as “paramilitary organisations”. We need to get away from that. They are criminals and should be dealt with by the PSNI. I have some worries whether the PSNI has the proper resources to deal with the criminality, which is not just right across Northern Ireland but right across the island of Ireland, on both sides of the border. I have said for some time that there are issues in and around resources for the PSNI. It is something that the Government should look at seriously.
On the other issue that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, raised, I would go much further. We have seen the report today and we have heard the Statement. I have believed for some time that the criminality and the money made from criminality goes to political parties. We should say that. We have a political party on the island of Ireland that is almost the richest anywhere in Europe. It is the second-richest party in Europe. That is something that the Government ought to look at and continue to look at: whether that criminality and those unearned gains are going to a particular party.
I ask the Minister: do the Government see a further role for this panel in Northern Ireland, as we try to move on the political process? I hope that the Statement helps the political process to move on. That is important.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord. With regard to his question on whether I see a role for the review panel, I am not certain about that. However, it is certainly true to say that, as part of the talks process, there needs to be discussion and agreement over a verification mechanism and a broader strategy to see paramilitary groups disband once and for all.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, said, it is no surprise that these paramilitary groups exist, so it is very important that talks continue to take place. However, the perpetual lesson from Northern Ireland is that when there is a vacuum, the Government must fill it. There is a case here for saying that perhaps the Government have not been robust enough in that area. I am mindful of the Protestant paramilitary groups. I remember talking to them just after the peace process many years ago. They said that they did not get support for building community structures and that they felt isolated from the mainstream unionist community as well as from the rest of Northern Ireland. So there is a case for having active community polices in recognition of the high unemployment, deprivation and poverty there. If we do not support the enlightened members of those communities, they will remain isolated and we will not be able to tackle the problem at root. That is a lesson for the Government.
Lord Dunlop
I agree with the noble Lord about the need to support community groups. That is very much part of the long-term solution here. The Government are leaving no stone unturned to keep the five parties around the table focused on the twin objectives of dealing with this paramilitary activity and implementing the Stormont House agreement. That is what we will be focused on in the coming days.
Lord Lexden (Con)
We have heard a depressing report and been told that a strategy to address it is being discussed at Stormont—discussions which have been going on for some time. Can the Government say when those discussions are likely to conclude? I think that a month was indicated when we last discussed Northern Ireland in this House. Can the Government say what they will do if the talks should fail? Of course, we hope that they are crowned by success but, if they fail, what will the Government do?
Lord Dunlop
We hope that the talks can conclude swiftly but I will not put a specific timetable on that. I do not think that it would be helpful for me to speculate on what might happen in the event of failure. We are working very hard for success.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I refer the Minister to page 11 of the Statement and the paragraph in it that my noble friend Lord Rogan mentioned. I also associate myself with the thanks expressed to the panel for its work. However, this goes beyond what the chief constable said in August this year. The paragraph on which I wish to focus states that,
“the assessment states that: ‘PIRA members believe that the PAC’”—
that is, the Provisional Army Council—
“‘oversees both PIRA and Sinn Fein with an overarching strategy’”.
Will the Minister, on behalf of the Government, tell the House whether or not the Government accept this paragraph of the report?
Lord Dunlop
The Secretary of State said in the other place that we did accept the assessment in this report, which has been reviewed by three very credible, experienced reviewers of high integrity.
Northern Ireland: Political Developments
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows.
“With permission, I would like to make a Statement about political developments in Northern Ireland. First, I welcome back the honourable Member for Gedling as shadow Secretary of State. I hope that we can continue the constructive working relationship we had when he last held this important post. With that in mind, the new Labour leader and the shadow Chancellor are on record many times as expressing their support for a united Ireland. That is an entirely legitimate view, as is the clearly held preference on these Conservative Benches that our country stays together and Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom. It would be helpful for the shadow Secretary of State to confirm when he responds today that, under his party’s new leadership, the consent principle at the heart of the Belfast agreement will remain paramount.
Last week we started a new round of cross-party talks focused on two issues: the continued presence of paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland and the pressing need to implement the Stormont House agreement. The talks began on Tuesday with a meeting of all the participants, at which everyone agreed that these two issues needed to be addressed as a matter of urgency, although views differed on the sequence in which they should be considered. On Wednesday morning, the Police Service of Northern Ireland arrested three well-known members of the republican movement, including the northern chairman of Sinn Fein, in connection with their ongoing investigation into the murder of Kevin McGuigan. It would not be appropriate to comment on a live police investigation, save to say that all three were subsequently released unconditionally. These developments had dramatic political consequences.
On Thursday evening, Peter Robinson announced that DUP Ministers, with the exception of Finance Minister Arlene Foster, were resigning from the Northern Ireland Executive. The First Minister himself has stepped aside, with Mrs Foster taking over the functions of that office for a period of six weeks. That does not trigger an early Assembly election—that would only happen if either the First Minister or Deputy First Minister were to resign. Nor does it mean suspension of the institutions or a return to direct rule—that would require primary legislation at Westminster, which is not something that the Government believe would be justified in the current circumstances. It does not mean that the Assembly and the Executive cease to function, but the situation is very grave.
A number of departments are left without ministerial leadership and relationships between the parties have almost completely broken down. That leaves the devolved institutions looking increasingly dysfunctional. Over recent days, I have been maintaining close contact with the five main Northern Ireland parties and with the Irish Government, and I have kept the Prime Minister constantly updated on the situation. Yesterday, I held a series of bilateral and trilateral meetings at Stormont, aimed at establishing a basis for further intensive talks. I plan to hold further such discussions at Stormont tomorrow and in the days ahead.
The events I have outlined do not alter the fundamental issues that need to be resolved. First, the brutal murders of Gerard Davison and Kevin McGuigan have brought into sharp focus the continuing problems around the existence of paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland, and the involvement of some of their members in criminality and organised crime. The Government are clear that paramilitary organisations have no place in a democratic society. They were never justified in the past, they are not justified now and we all need to work together to find a way to bring to an end this continuing blight on Northern Ireland society. The Government are working with the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive on how to achieve that goal.
For example, serious consideration needs to be given to whether the time is right to re-establish a body along the lines of the Independent Monitoring Commission. The remit the parties might wish to give such a body is likely to be very different from the matters addressed by the original IMC, reflecting changed circumstances. But there might well be scope for such a body to play a part in providing greater community confidence and repairing working relationships within the Executive. The Government will also actively consider whether there is more that we can do to support efforts to tackle organised crime and cross-border crime in Northern Ireland. In the days to come, we will continue to listen carefully to representations made to us on the best way to ensure that all parties can engage in this process.
The second issue on the agenda is just as important as the first. Resolving the differences which have been blocking the implementation of the Stormont House agreement is crucial if the finances of the Executive are to be placed on a sustainable footing. Without welfare reform and steps to tackle in-year budget pressures, there is a real danger that the executive departments could start running out of money, becoming steadily less able to pay their bills, with the serious negative impact that could have on front-line public services. As we have seen in those parts of Europe where Governments are unable to control their debts and live within their means—some of which are supported by the new leader of the Labour party—it is the vulnerable and most disadvantaged who suffer most in such situations. We have therefore made clear that if these matters are not dealt with by the parties, as a last resort the Government would have to legislate here at Westminster—a position on which I hope we would have the support of the honourable Member for Gedling.
As things stand, every day that passes is likely to see the devolved institutions become less and less able to function effectively. We have limited time, so once again I urge all parties to engage intensively and with focus, determination and good will in the talks under way. We on these Benches, and I hope the whole House, continue to give our full support to the Belfast agreement and the institutions it created. There can be no doubt that power-sharing, inclusive government comes with its frustrations and difficulties—indeed, I hear about them every day—but as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister often reminds this House, the Northern Ireland political settlement was a huge achievement. It has transformed life in Northern Ireland for the better and it is an awe-inspiring example of what can be achieved with political leadership and vision. On so many occasions in the past 20 years, Northern Ireland’s politicians have come together to achieve the seemingly impossible. It is time to do so again, so that we can continue on the road to a brighter, more secure future for Northern Ireland. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating this Statement, which does not seem to take us much further down the road from the events of last week. That is a little disappointing. There have been relationship breakdowns between power-sharing parties on and off now for a number of years, and we lurch from semi-crisis to crisis all too often. The poor electors of Northern Ireland must be getting utterly disheartened by the bad behaviour of some of their leaders. Do the Government agree that there is a need to address paramilitaries of all kinds, whether unionist or nationalist, and that there must not be any relationship between democratically elected politicians and paramilitary organisations?
The Statement says that the talks are focused on two issues: paramilitarism and the implementation of the Stormont House agreement. Are the Government content that tackling these two issues will be enough to break the cycle of crises that has befallen the Northern Ireland Executive in recent years? Is there not merit in taking a wider view, including consideration of institutional structures and processes that prevent the kind of political progress that is required if public services are to be maintained?
Do the Government have a view on whether the actions of these Ministers in recent days amount to a breach of the pledge of office that all Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive are required to take? They pledge to,
“discharge in good faith all the duties of office”,
and to,
“participate fully in the Executive Committee, the North/South Ministerial Council, and the British-Irish Council”.
The structures of Northern Ireland are in grave danger of not working for much longer. That would be tragic for the people of Northern Ireland, who have rightly enjoyed the peace that was predicated on the Good Friday agreement 17 years ago. They want a stable society, and it is up to the Government, both here and there, to deliver that to them.
Last week, speaking on Northern Ireland in the previous Statement, I talked about the real problems the police in Northern Ireland face day in, day out. I was therefore very pleased to hear in the Statement that more work will be going on to support efforts to tackle organised crime and cross-border crime. That surely will mean more financial support for the police, who have lost so many officers in recent years. This past season has seen 45 police officers injured in civil disorders. If that happened here, we can imagine the sort of outcry that would ensue. Moreover, concessions should not be made to just one part of the power-sharing parties. They must be seen to be fair to all, and I urge the Government to ensure this.
The Statement says that the talks and negotiations are time-limited. On the one hand, the Statement says that time is limited, and with every day that passes, the devolved institutions are likely to be less able to function effectively. On the other hand, the Secretary of State appears to be telling the House that, rather than there being the intense, focused negotiations which she told us just last week were urgently needed, the furthest the discussions have reached thus far is a series of bilateral talks about talks. How do the Government believe that real urgency and momentum can be injected into the process to halt what appears to be a slide towards ever more gridlock?
On the relationship of the body along the lines of the Independent Monitoring Commission, have the Government given any consideration to the remit that such a body might have? The noble Lord mentioned that earlier. In addition to monitoring the activities of paramilitary organisations, might there be a role for that body, for example, to monitor the implementation by politicians of agreements reached between themselves, particularly those intended to address the legacy of the past? It is critical to reach the point where political agreements are not left to sit unimplemented, with all the damage that that does to public confidence in the political process.
If these vital talks are to be jointly shared by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Irish Government, can the Minister assure me that those relationships are strong and constructive? How often do meetings take place between them? If there is sufficient will to make these talks work, the problems confronting the Executive can and should be solved quickly.
Lord Dunlop
First, I thank the two noble Lords opposite for their contributions. I particularly welcome the confirmation from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that his party intends to continue a bipartisan approach to Northern Ireland and remains committed to the principle of consent. It is a great strength when we in this Parliament can demonstrate a bipartisan approach to Northern Ireland. Having said that, the current situation is undoubtedly grave. We remain totally committed to devolution in Northern Ireland. That is why my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary is holding intensive talks with the five parties, and why we urge all parties to engage with the talks process with focus, determination and, of course, good will.
Turning to specific issues raised by noble Lords, the first was that of full authority. I confirm that we will bring to bear the full authority of the UK Government in these talks, and will focus on implementation of the Stormont House agreement and the paramilitary activity. On the chief constable’s assessment, the Government agree with it but we would be cautious about expounding upon what is already in the public domain. On the ongoing PSNI investigation, again it would be unhelpful to speculate about that. It is not in the interests of justice. The police must be able to follow the evidence without fear or favour. On the issue of police resources, of course the PSNI needs the resources to discharge its very important responsibilities.
On the ambiguity issue that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, raised, there is no room for it here. There is no place for paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland. They are a blight on society, they are not wanted and they should disband. On cross-agency working, yes, we see the need for agencies to work together and to involve community groups so that we can find a solution to the problems Northern Ireland faces. On the IMC, I do not want to prejudice what parties might propose as part of the talks process, but the Government recognise that such a body could play a role and any remit that such a body had would need to reflect the changed circumstances.
I was asked about Stormont House agreement implementation and legislation. As has already been said, the Stormont House agreement was a great achievement. It is very important that the UK Government deliver on their commitments, so we continue to work on the Bill. Our aim is to present to Parliament next month the legislation as planned.
On welfare reform and the special circumstances of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State made very clear that the Government will not fund a more generous Northern Ireland welfare system, but we have to recognise that funding already acknowledges Northern Ireland’s special circumstances. Northern Ireland’s spending per head is already 23% higher than the UK average and, of course, a key part of the Stormont House agreement was the inclusion of £2 billion additional spending power. These talks need to be urgent, focused and intensive—talks that take weeks, not months—and we will work very closely with the Irish Government to get people round the table and find solutions to the problems Northern Ireland is facing.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, of course we want the bipartisan approach to continue, and of course we want the Good Friday agreement and the institutions to be brought back as soon as possible, but I wonder if the Minister could clarify something. Surely there is a difference between criminality and paramilitary activity, even if the people who are alleged to have done it were former members of a paramilitary organisation. Are we not endangering Northern Ireland by suggesting that the tragic murder of Kevin McGuigan was definitely to do with paramilitary activity, when a lot of evidence suggests that it was ordinary—common or garden, very nasty—criminality?
Lord Dunlop
As I said earlier, we agree with the chief constable’s assessment that the Provisional IRA continues to exist organisationally although its purpose has radically changed. The noble Lord is absolutely right: the chief constable’s finding was individuals engaged in criminality for personal gain while the organisation itself is no longer involved in terrorism. We accept and agree with that assessment, and it is very much part of the priority for the talks process that we focus on the activity that is taking place. That will be a key priority for the talks.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I begin by saying how delighted I was to hear the words of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, because there has been some concern in Northern Ireland about the forthcoming attitude of the Labour Party. We are most grateful for what he had to say.
Is the Minister aware that the Sinn Fein leadership gave a press conference at the weekend at which the northern chairman of that organisation described the evolution of the IRA as being from a caterpillar to a butterfly? Does the Minister agree that there could be no more appalling, outrageous and false analogy of the development of that organisation? Does he also agree that the members and victims who suffered at the hands of that organisation, and continue to suffer, were outraged, horrified and angered by such a statement? Can he assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government will not sweep issues like this under the carpet? The fundamental lie that was being propagated at that press conference is the reason why trust has been so undermined. Until that lie is confronted and dealt with and separated out from the rest of the day-to-day problems—such as the financial mismanagement on a massive scale that exists in Belfast—I believe we will have huge difficulty. Will he undertake to ensure that his right honourable friend in the other place is aware of this issue?
Lord Dunlop
I certainly undertake to make my right honourable friend in the other place aware of my noble friend’s comments. As I have said already, paramilitary activity of any kind is a blight on society and we need to deal with it and banish it from Northern Ireland. The other point I would make is that victims must absolutely be centre stage in everything we do.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, I share my noble friend Lord Empey’s appreciation of the position and comments of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Have Her Majesty’s Government themselves reached the stage of having very different draft terms of reference for the possible substitute for the original Independent Monitoring Commission, and if so, are the Government encouraged by the reaction to them to date?
Lord Dunlop
Before replying to my noble friend’s question, I take this opportunity, on the eve of his retirement from this House, to pay tribute to the many years of public service he has given and his distinguished record as a former Northern Ireland Secretary.
Clearly, as I have said already, the IMC is very much an option for consideration. We do not want to prejudge what proposals the parties might put forward, but as I said earlier, the remit would be very different because the circumstances are very different.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, I cannot prevent myself joining in the tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, who was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland at such a difficult time and carried out the job with such distinction.
I very much welcome the tone of the Minister’s remarks today about the IMC and, indeed, the broad tone in the other place. As he rightly said, it cannot be a simple return of the IMC, and there is much discussion to be had about this. I shall put to the House the most profound reason why it is a good idea. Some months ago, Committee A of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly—on which the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and I serve, as do members of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil—presented a report in the Dáil Éireann on these issues of criminality and cross-border smuggling and their relationship to politics. There was a good debate and a couple of good newspaper follow-up stories but ultimately, after that, Committee A’s report was forgotten about. It goes right to the heart of these matters of criminality. The return of the IMC would, tragically, not have stopped the two deaths that we have just seen. However, as I hope the Minister will agree, an open and honest discussion of issues relating to criminality and politics in Northern Ireland, such as we have tried to have in Committee A, would provide greater clarity and carry greater clout with the media. It can only be healthy. It would not have saved these two men’s lives or solve all problems, but it would be a contribution to a clear atmosphere. Yesterday, Mr Gerry Adams very helpfully said that he wants to address the unionist community and say something reassuring, and I do not dismiss that. I am glad that he at least said that. But there is no possibility that anything that he says can have any weight. The crucial thing is to have a new independent body that will have control of the media agenda. That is the great case for the return, in a modified form, of the IMC.
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord brings great experience of these matters to this debate and I very much take on board what he has said. I will make sure that his points are reflected to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Will my noble friend clarify the role of the Government of the Republic of Ireland in the discussions that are taking place?
Lord Dunlop
Obviously the Irish Government have a strong role in supporting these talks, and we work very closely with them in that. As participants in the Belfast agreement and as a Government who have commitments under the Stormont House agreement, they will be very much involved in these talks.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
Will the Minister make perfectly clear the role of the southern Irish Government? In the Belfast agreement, there were three strands. The southern Irish Government were allowed to be involved only in strand 3. Does that continue to be the case?
Lord Dunlop
Our priority is getting the parties round the table because unless they are round the table we cannot have talks that will make progress. The priority of both Governments—and any influence that the US Government can bring to bear—is focused on getting all the parties round the table.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I, too, very much welcome the Minister’s Statement on the current political crisis in Northern Ireland. I also welcome the statement to the House of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, to clarify the Labour Party’s position. In the last few days the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been meeting the five main political parties in Northern Ireland to find a way forward—in her own words, so that “intensive talks” can take place to address all the outstanding issues. Are we any closer to those talks taking place so that we can address all the issues, or are there still issues that need to be addressed by the individual parties to try to get them round the table?
Does the Minister also agree that if the institutions in Northern Ireland are to function effectively, paramilitary activity needs to be addressed once and for all? The island of Ireland is awash with criminality which has been going on for many years—both in the north and in the south. It is almost 20 years since the signing of the Good Friday agreement, yet we still have paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland that are still active, still killing and still involved in criminal activity.
In his Statement, the Minister talked about some sort of IMC body. I think we are in a different place and at a different time for which we need a different body. My only worry is that the ideas seem to have to come from the five main political parties—regarding the format, the powers and the terms of reference that such a body might have. Addressing that matter would be very useful because I can see it, too, turning into a political football in Northern Ireland. Would it not be better if the Minister and the Government would lead on and address those particular issues?
Lord Dunlop
I agree very much with what the noble Lord said about criminal paramilitary activity. As I have said previously, I do not think it would be helpful to provide a running commentary as talks proceed. The Secretary of State said in the other place that she will hold further talks tomorrow. We must see what transpires from those.
Lord Hylton (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness speaking from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench raised the question of whether some Ministers might be in breach of their oath of office. The Minister may not be able to answer today, right now, but could he at least ensure that legal advice is taken on that point?
Lord Dunlop
It is for the Ministers who have taken those actions to answer for them. We remain absolutely focused on getting the parties round the table and seeking a resolution to these difficult issues.
Northern Ireland Assembly
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, the question of an adjournment of the Northern Ireland Assembly is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly. I understand that the Assembly Business Committee is meeting this afternoon to consider this proposal.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
I thank the Minister for that Answer, which of course did not refer to suspension of the Assembly, which is not within the remit of the Northern Ireland Business Committee but within the powers of the British Government. Only two days ago, the Government said that they had no intention to suspend the Assembly. Yesterday, in what is effectively an ultimatum, the First Minister of Northern Ireland said that unless the Assembly was adjourned by the Northern Ireland Business Committee, which is meeting today, or suspended by the British Government, he and the DUP members of the Executive would resign, effectively bringing down power-sharing in Northern Ireland.
I understand the difficulties the Government have, since one of the options does not take place until 2 o’clock this afternoon, and they will not know the outcome of whether there is to be an adjournment within the power of the Northern Ireland Business Committee until that stage. I do not wish to add to the Minister’s difficulties, and I understand that the Government will not wish to say anything prematurely. However, this is a very grave issue indeed.
I will ask the Minister two simple questions. The first refers to the Government themselves. Will they assure us that, at the earliest possible moment after the Northern Ireland Business Committee has met this afternoon, they will bring this issue back to the British Parliament? Secondly, as regards the talks being convened by the Northern Ireland Secretary, which may be under way at present, will the Government give us an assurance that these will be time-limited? If they are not, I can assure him from experience that they will drift on indefinitely, and this crisis will just get worse.
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord brings vast experience of Northern Ireland to these matters. Indeed, when he was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, he went through a period of suspension, and he will appreciate the seriousness of any step to suspend. As the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has already set out, the Government do not think that the time is right to suspend devolved institutions. If circumstances change, the Government will review their options. Clearly, this is a fast-moving situation, and I am sure that the Government would want to keep Parliament informed, and will certainly do so. We had exchanges on this yesterday, and I very much agree that any talks need to be focused, intensive and urgent and, therefore, time limited.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, for bringing this PNQ forward and to the Government for responding to it. We are also grateful for the assurance from the Minister that Parliament will be kept informed of the situation as it develops because, as has been agreed, it is so important that that happens. As the Minister also rightly said, this is and will be a fast-moving situation, and we welcome his assurance that they will report back to Parliament as soon as possible. I am sure that all noble Lords are aware of the deep concern across Northern Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom about this situation, which is a dangerous one. We place on record that we are fully behind the Government in their efforts to resolve this very serious situation.
Lord Dunlop
Just to reiterate, this is an ongoing situation, and the parties will consider the issue of adjournment this afternoon in the Business Committee. While we want to keep Parliament informed as appropriate, it is also worth saying that, in a fast-moving situation, it would not be helpful for the UK Government to give a running commentary on what are very sensitive and serious matters.
Lord Mawhinney (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, when the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my noble friend Lord Brooke, and I conducted the very first set of round-table talks, the end-point of which many years later was the agreement, we made it clear that those talks were time-limited? Both of us believed that the fact that they were time-limited and that we kept to the limit was a significant factor in moving the talks forward. Bearing in mind the well-established allegations that Northern Ireland may run out of money at the end of October, would he not strengthen his original Answer and agree that time-limiting the talks is of itself an important factor?
Lord Dunlop
My noble friend is absolutely right—the budgetary situation in Northern Ireland is acute, which is why the Secretary of State has made it clear that these talks need to be focused, urgent and intensive. The expectation is that they would last between three to four weeks.
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
I welcome the PNQ from the noble Lord, Lord Reid, the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that the situation in Northern Ireland is extremely serious and it is vital that important and constructive discussions on the future of devolved government and on the Stormont House agreement take place. Surely, this is the time for all Northern Ireland parties to consider the welfare of the whole community, rather than seeking short-term political advantage. Does the Minister agree that it would be useful to have a short adjournment of the Assembly, as that would facilitate positive discussions, free from the wrangling that inevitably accompanies everyday parliamentary business?
Lord Dunlop
I very much agree with the noble Lord that there is support for devolution across the community in Northern Ireland. Our priority remains keeping the devolved institutions functioning. As I said earlier, the adjournment of the Northern Ireland Assembly is a matter for the Assembly, and we await the outcome of the Business Committee’s considerations this afternoon.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, on the one hand, we hear of suspension; on the other, there is the threat of abdication. I am absolutely certain that talks are the most important thing. First, will the Minister assure us that the Government will go to every length to ensure that talks take place and that they keep going? Secondly, will he assure us that, if there is failure, alternatives are in place for the good governance of Northern Ireland?
Lord Dunlop
I can certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that our focus is on the talks and on those talks reaching a successful outcome. That is the focus of all our activity at the moment.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
My Lords, first, can the Minister confirm that the present crisis is due to some members of the IRA being involved in terrorist activity and killing people? That has brought about the crisis. Secondly, can the Minister confirm that adjournment is far preferable to suspension? Adjournment means that devolution continues in Northern Ireland; suspension means that it is abolished and will later have to be restored. Will he therefore confirm that adjournment is the preferable option? Thirdly, does he agree that something similar to the Independent Monitoring Commission, which was abolished, would be helpful in the present security situation? Finally, does he agree that one of the weaknesses of the cross-party Executive at Stormont was the fact that there was no cross-party Opposition? Will he bear that in mind?
Lord Dunlop
Paramilitary activity is clearly a very serious matter. The scope of the talks is one of two aspects, the other being the implementation of the Stormont House agreement, which is very much the focus of the talks. The IMC is one option for consideration. As we discussed yesterday when these matters were brought up, the current situation is very different from the one that existed in 2004, when the IMC was originally set up. Clearly, we would have to ask such a body very different questions today.
Northern Ireland: Political Situation
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place.
“Over recent days I have been involved in a series of discussions with the Prime Minister, the five largest Northern Ireland parties and the Irish Government. On Thursday, we announced a fresh round of intensive cross-party talks. Those talks will begin at Stormont this evening and will be conducted in accordance with the established three-stranded approach.
The Government’s objectives are clear. We are committed to working with Northern Ireland’s political leaders to ensure that we have a fully functioning Assembly able to deliver for the whole community, a Northern Ireland where a stronger economy brings greater prosperity for all and a Northern Ireland that is no longer defined by its divided past but by its shared future. But to achieve this, we need urgently to tackle the two main sources of current political instability. These are, first, the issues arising from continued paramilitary activity and, secondly, the implementation of the Stormont House agreement.
Turning to the first of these, on 12 August, a prominent republican, Kevin McGuigan, was brutally murdered in the Short Strand area of East Belfast. This followed the gunning down of another senior republican, Gerard Davison, in the Markets area of Belfast in May.
Although it is not yet possible to know with certainty who was responsible for these murders, on 22 August the chief constable set out the PSNI’s assessment of the McGuigan case. This was the chief constable’s estimate at that date, but we should recognise that we do not yet know where the investigation will ultimately lead.
The chief constable confirmed that the police were following a line of inquiry that indicated that members of the Provisional IRA were involved in the crime. He said that the PSNI did not at that stage have information to indicate that this involvement was sanctioned or directed at a senior or organisational level in the Provisional IRA.
On the status of the Provisional IRA, the chief constable’s assessment was that some PIRA organisational structures still exist, but for a radically different purpose than before. His view was that the organisation was committed to a political path and was no longer engaged in terrorism although some current and former PIRA members continued to engage in criminal activities for personal gain and for personal agendas.
I do not intend to comment further on what is a live police investigation. The PSNI must be allowed to pursue its lines of inquiry wherever the evidence leads. The police assessment that I have outlined may change over time, but I do want to make this clear: there was never a justification for politically motivated violence in Northern Ireland, from whichever side of the community it came. During the Troubles, paramilitary organisations inflicted huge suffering on thousands of ordinary people. These organisations should never have existed in the first place; they should not exist today; and they should disband.
For our part, the Government believe fundamentally in the rule of law. We will not compromise it. We stand fully behind the Mitchell principles of democracy and non-violence. Only parties committed to exclusively democratic and peaceful means can or should be eligible to participate in Northern Ireland’s political institutions.
I believe that all the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive are committed to these principles, but I am fully aware that the fallout from the murder of Kevin McGuigan and the continued existence of PIRA structures is a cause of grave concern, as is the continued existence of other paramilitary groups, so we have moved swiftly to convene talks to address these matters and to consider how best we can make progress towards the day when paramilitary groupings are consigned to Northern Ireland’s history.
The second matter for the talks is the implementation of the Stormont House agreement. The Government believe that the agreement is the best hope of building a brighter, more secure future for Northern Ireland, but for that to happen it is essential that the agreement is implemented in full by all those who participated in the negotiations last autumn.
We are delivering on our side of the deal. In March, we passed legislation to open the way for the devolution of corporation tax powers. In line with the Queen’s Speech, we are on course to introduce a Bill in October to set up important new institutions to help deal with the painful legacy of the past. We are now releasing funding to enable the planned voluntary exit scheme to proceed in order to take forward much-needed public sector reform.
The manifesto on which we were elected commits us to working with each of the other participants to ensure that all aspects of the agreement are implemented. That has to include the financial provisions of the agreement, including welfare reform. Without welfare reform and measures to deal with in-year pressures, the Budget passed by the Executive in June simply does not add up. That raises the real prospect that the Executive will start running out of money, with resulting damage to front-line public services such as hospitals, schools and policing.
In those circumstances, the Government cannot stand by and let the situation drag on indefinitely, with Stormont less able to deliver key public services. As a last resort, we would be prepared to legislate here at Westminster for welfare reform in Northern Ireland, but I must emphasise that we would do so reluctantly and only after we had exhausted all the other realistic alternatives. By far the better outcome would be for the Northern Ireland parties to reach agreement to resolve this blockage themselves without the need for Westminster intervention. I still believe that is possible, and that is why we will press ahead with talks this evening, determined to see the implementation of all aspects of the agreement.
We are a one-nation Government, and we want to build a Northern Ireland where politics works, the economy grows, and society is stronger and more united. We strongly support the power-sharing devolved institutions established under the Belfast agreement. The future of those institutions is in jeopardy if the two very serious matters I have outlined today are not resolved. I do not underestimate the challenges that we face, but I believe that a way through can be found, and that is what we will be striving to achieve as we embark on this new talks process with urgency, focus and determination.
Northern Ireland’s political leaders have shown remarkable courage over the past 20 years and have achieved great things working together. We need to show the same spirit over the next few short weeks. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, for a number of years when I was on the IMC I focused a great deal on the monitoring of paramilitary organisations. Is the Minister aware that the balance and order of things in this Statement could potentially be misleading? It focuses heavily on the question of whether there has been IRA activity, as though that was the real primary cause of the current crisis, when in truth this crisis has been developing for months and months over the failure of the political parties—particularly the two leading political parties—to work together in a proper governmental way. This recent event is important, but it should not be allowed to distract us from the fact that if it were magicked away tomorrow morning, the problems would remain.
Secondly, is the Minister aware that even if welfare reform were taken back to Westminster—and if it has to be so, I certainly would not oppose it—that would still leave a complete breakdown in the relationship between the Democratic Unionist Party leadership and the Sinn Fein leadership? Without a working relationship together, the devolved structures will not be able to continue, whether or not they have a problem of welfare and whether or not there is any indication of IRA activity. One must say that Sinn Fein has said the kind of things that many people wanted it to say for years on the IRA: that this was criminal activity; that people should go to the police with information; and that there was absolutely no justification. The Statement refers to “politically motivated violence”, but I have the sense that everything we know about this incident means that it was personally motivated violence rather than for the purpose of destabilising Northern Ireland.
Therefore, will the Minister take back to his colleagues who are engaged in this process that we do not need another monitoring commission or another short-term political fix but a change in the kind of relationships there are between the senior leaderships of the DUP and Sinn Fein? If not, we will be faced, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has suggested, with legislation in this place to take back powers, which would be a disaster.
Lord Dunlop
First, I thank the noble Lords, Lord McAvoy and Lord Alderdice, for their remarks and support. I do not think that anybody can doubt the seriousness of the situation or the Government’s commitment to help resolve the current challenges. I am sure that noble Lords in all parts of this House want to see devolved institutions in Northern Ireland that work and deliver for people in Northern Ireland. We all want to see, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, a Northern Ireland that attracts jobs and investment and where people can be optimistic about their family’s future. There can be no doubt at all that the best route to achieving this is to see the full implementation of the Stormont House agreement. That is why my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary is convening urgent and intensive talks to find solutions to the critical issues that threaten the effectiveness and credibility of Northern Ireland’s democratic institutions.
I turn to some of the specific points that have been raised. First, on the Provisional IRA, the chief constable of Northern Ireland has set out his view that the Provisional IRA continues to exist organisationally but its purpose has radically changed. Individuals are engaged in criminality for personal gain, but the Provisional IRA as an organisation is no longer engaged in terrorism. We share that assessment, which is why some of the key issues that these intensive talks has to address are the implications of that situation.
Secondly, a question was asked about the IMC. Certainly, that is one option for consideration. However, the current situation—as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, will know all too well, given his previous involvement in the IMC as a commissioner—is clearly very different. Were we to ask a similar body this time, the questions that we would have to ask would be very different.
Suspension would be a very big step. The Government’s view is that that is not right in the current circumstances but, clearly, should the circumstances change, we would need to look at the full range of options that are open to us.
In terms of the budget and its sustainability, in some respects it is already unsustainable, and departments are struggling to deal with the consequences of that. We have made it clear that the voluntary exit scheme should go ahead as planned, because it is only through that route that we will start to get the public sector reform that is such an important part of putting Northern Ireland’s finances on a sustainable footing.
Welfare reform is part of the package of the Stormont House agreement. The Government are delivering their side of the bargain and we would like to see the other parties deliver theirs. In our view, it is primarily for the parties to resolve this issue and to come together and find a way through. Clearly, were there to be a failure to agree then, as my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary has made clear, the Government would, reluctantly and as a last resort, be prepared to step in if all other options had been exhausted.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, the hazards are made clear in the Minister’s Statement and the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. No one among those who care about Northern Ireland would underestimate the gravity of the Statement that the Minister has had to make and the vital importance of finding an improved relationship going forward. Is not the reality of the current situation that the challenges and pressures of austerity, which are inevitable for all of us in this country, have brought to a head the tensions between the two major parties in the power-sharing agreement? If there is one statement that gives any encouragement, it is the Secretary of State’s comment that she believes it is still possible to maintain the agreement. I hope the message will go out from this House that, in the interests of everybody in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom, it is vital that the discussions at Stormont come to a successful conclusion.
Lord Dunlop
I thank my noble friend for those comments. I entirely agree that the whole purpose of these talks is to get all the parties round the table and to find a way through this very difficult situation. My noble friend mentioned austerity. I think it is worth putting all this into context. The Northern Ireland block grant is still higher in cash terms than it was in 2010 and is only 1% lower in real terms. I repeat that we need to put that into context. It does not diminish the responsibility of, and importance for, the Northern Ireland Executive and all the parties involved in it to undertake the measures to put Northern Ireland’s finances on to a sustainable footing for the long term.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I also thank the Minister for making this Statement. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice—unfortunately, I thought—moved the probable link between elected Members and paramilitary groups into second place. No democracy can function if such a link exists. The chief constable of the PSNI stated that the military wing of Sinn Fein still exists. Elected Sinn Fein Members of the Assembly have constantly denied the existence of the Army Council, but the fact remains that 17 years after the signing of the Belfast agreement, the IRA still exists. It retains a command structure and its members continue to murder people on the streets of Northern Ireland.
I ask a simple question: do Her Majesty’s Government believe the chief constable or Adams and Gerry Kelly? If the Government believe their security forces, what purpose do they think the IRA Army Council serves? What is its current status?
Lord Dunlop
As I said in my earlier remarks, the Government share the assessment of the chief constable of the PSNI, and that is why one of the two key focuses of this intensive talks process is to consider the implications of the existence of paramilitary structures —on both sides of the community—as part of this talks process.
Baroness Blood (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Of course we all agree that the way forward for Northern Ireland is a strong economy and an assured future. I should like to ask two questions that are bewildering ordinary people in Northern Ireland. We will hear today from some political people who will be able to describe that better, but I want to speak about ordinary people.
The first thing that confuses people in the community is: why did it take the Secretary of State so long to respond to the breakdown of the Stormont House agreement, which happened last March? Someone once said that in politics a week is a long time; well, I think six months sounds extraordinary, and yet Northern Ireland has been through the whole summer with this hanging over the people’s heads, and there has been no movement. All of a sudden, the Secretary of State has come to life. I just wonder: does it take a crisis on Northern Ireland to have some movement, or is there just a lack of leadership? I have to tell the noble Lord that people on the ground are, first, really worried—naturally. Secondly, they are really amused that people can make all this talk but nothing come out of it at the end of several months. Why did it take the Secretary of State six months before this breakthrough in the talks? I wish them well.
As to my second question, I know that the Minister will tell me that the PSNI is still investigating this matter, and I agree. However, I should like to know what makes this man’s murder so important. In the past 20 years, countless people have been murdered in Northern Ireland. I think back to young Paul Quinn a couple of years ago, who everyone knew that the IRA had murdered. Yet there was nothing. What makes this man’s murder more important than anyone else’s? As I say, I know that the PSNI is investigating, and that is right and true. Even the chief constable came out and said that while there was Provisional IRA involvement, he stated categorically that there was no hierarchy as we know it. What makes this different? People on the ground do not understand how this brought on the crisis.
I have to say that if anyone in this House, in this country or in Ireland believes that the paramilitaries on both sides have gone away, they must have been asleep for the past 20 years.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. First, this Government are very committed to devolution, which has widespread support in Northern Ireland. The crux of devolution is local elected representatives being responsible for local issues. As I have said, the Stormont House agreement is a package of measures and the UK Government are delivering their responsibilities under that agreement. We have already legislated on corporation tax and are bringing forward next month legislation to implement aspects of setting up institutions under the Stormont House agreement. However, we feel that it is important that the parties in Northern Ireland have responsibility for taking forward those aspects of the agreement for which they are responsible. The Secretary of State has now stepped in to facilitate these talks, and she will progress them with urgency over the next three to four weeks.
The noble Baroness is absolutely right with regard to the police investigation. We support it, and it is important that the lines of that investigation are pursued without fear or favour and that the perpetrators are brought to justice. It would be inappropriate for me to comment further.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, already in this discussion there has been mention of the IMC, and we all listen with enormous respect to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, on this subject. He is quite right: the return of the IMC is not a silver bullet—there are wider issues at stake here. However, does the Minister agree with the Irish Foreign Minister that it is something worth discussing, for two particular reasons?
One reason is that, since the Good Friday agreement in 1998, which had only a slender majority within the unionist community, there is now much wider acceptance within that community of the institutions of power-sharing devolution across a very broad spectrum. That underlying stability is helpful at this moment. However, there is also a need to send a signal of clarity about criminal activities. There are not just two choices; there are three. Is there a terrorist organisation in play here? Not in the old sense—the IRA is not that. But is this personal crime? That, I think, is open to question. The report of Committee A of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, on which I sit and which has support across this House and across all the parties in Dáil Éireann, drew attention to the fact that it appears to be a criminal empire designed to support a political party. That is a slightly different question. So there is need for reassurance. Lord Alderdice is quite correct: the IMC is not a simple solution to many problems. However, does the Minister accept that it could have a role in giving that reassurance and reinforcing the underlying political stability that does exist in Northern Ireland, because there is widespread community consensus in favour of the power-sharing institutions?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has drawn attention to quite a number of practical considerations. I can confirm that the Government do regard this as an option that is worthy of consideration and it will certainly form part of the talks that are about to start.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)
My Lords, the chief constable has said that he accepts the assurances Sinn Fein has given that it wants to support the police in bringing those responsible for these murders to justice. It would be a very good idea for Sinn Fein to demonstrate openly how it will do this. Producing internal door-to-door inquiries of its own is tantamount to providing an alternative police force and it cannot do this legitimately. Therefore, I hope that Sinn Fein will now actively help the police find those responsible for the murders.
Does the noble Lord agree with the comments made by Mark Lindsay, the chair of the Police Federation of Northern Ireland, when he said that:
“It is a very worrying development if a command structure can be activated at will. Our members view developments with great and justifiable concern. Officers are doing their best to police and safeguard this entire community and that means there is no place for murder gangs or paramilitary organisations which have nothing but misery to offer”?
The truth is that the leaders of some of the parties in Northern Ireland have not been doing their job to solve the problems that are still faced there. Some of the language they use is deeply unhelpful. It is vital now that they step up and help solve the problems that people living over here find incomprehensible after all the time and money that we have spent on Northern Ireland. It has been done in the past—it needs to be done now and urgently.
Lord Dunlop
I very much agree with the noble Baroness that the Police Service of Northern Ireland needs the support of the community in pursuing these investigations. If people have information that will help the police with their inquiry, we would certainly encourage them to come forward.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, there is very little in this Statement that anyone here would disagree with and I thank the Minister for it. However, I think the reason there would be very little disagreement is that there is actually very little that is new in it. As my noble friend Lady Blood pointed out, these events have been going on for some time now. There is, however, one significant new element, which is the expressed intent of the Government to, as they put it, as a last resort be prepared to legislate here at Westminster. For those of us with a sense of déjà vu—I declare an interest, as I was involved, I think, as Secretary of State in three suspensions—this is a profound statement wrapped up in rather quiet words. Can the Minister therefore confirm to us that what this actually means is a suspension of the legislative powers in that area at Stormont, or is there another way of legislating here on a subject which is, after all, devolved?
The second question relates to the predication of that intention not on the political differences per se and particularly not, as the Statement makes clear, on the murder of Mr McGuigan, but on the real prospect that the Executive will start running out of money, not least in the public services and no doubt starting with health. In view of that link between the Government’s intention, presumably, to suspend Stormont—or at least to take legislative powers here from Stormont—and the running-out of money, the Government must have carried out some estimate of how imminent that is. Given that Parliament will rise next week, this is an important question. I notice that the Minister said that the situation is already difficult, but is he in a position to be a little more specific and tell us whether we are talking about a period of a week, a fortnight, a month or two months? As I have said, these innocent-seeming words have a profound implication for those of us who have lived through such a situation before if it results in the suspension of power-sharing at Stormont.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord for his question. The first thing that I need to make clear is what I said earlier: that the Government do not think that suspension of the devolved institutions is right in the current circumstances. The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that the budgetary situation is acute. That is why these talks will be intensive, urgent and focused, and will last between three and four weeks.
On welfare reform, as I said earlier, if all other options have been exhausted and given the acuteness of the budgetary situation, the Government would be prepared as a last resort and extremely reluctantly to legislate here in Westminster on welfare reform.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, in the penultimate sentence of the Statement there is a reference to “few short weeks”, and the Minister has amplified that by saying three or four weeks. Pursuant to that, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, came back to the subject of time. Given the scale of the agenda which has been set out before us today, will the talks be time-limited and, if so, for how long?
Lord Dunlop
I thank my noble friend. I do not think that I have anything to add to what I have already said on that matter.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement. Let me say clearly to the House that these are very serious issues. We are probably in the worst situation in Northern Ireland since 2006 or 2007. I have been saying for some time to the parties in Northern Ireland that I believe the Assembly has been on a life-support machine for a long time—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was right. As far back as 2 June, after the Secretary of State met the five parties along with Charlie Flanagan, the Foreign Affairs Minister from Dublin, she made clear how bleak was the outcome of those talks and warned us of the possibility of Westminster taking back powers relating to welfare reform. I believe that that would be a backward step, and the Secretary of State has said that it would be a last resort.
The other issue in Northern Ireland is the breakdown of trust within the parties. This, too, has been going on for several months. I ask the Government what action they can take to try to build trust in all the political parties in Northern Ireland.
I also firmly believe—and say to the House—that the only way that this can be resolved is by staying in, not by walking away. It cannot be resolved by people standing at the door and shouting in; they must be in there, round the table, trying to resolve these very serious issues.
On the issue of recreating in some form the IMC, I have to say that it would not work at this moment, unless it had a different remit with different powers.
I also ask the question: given the seriousness of the situation, will the Minister tell the House whether the Prime Minister has any plans to visit Northern Ireland and take part in the talks?
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord for his question. On the latter point, I have no information to share with the House at this point. I very much agree with what he said about building trust and confidence. The best way to achieve that is to get people round the table to discuss in a very focused way the challenges that face Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that the best route forward for Northern Ireland is the full implementation of the Stormont House agreement. Without progress on that, there is a real threat to the devolved institutions of Northern Ireland. I reiterate that these talks are not a renegotiation; they are about a full and fair implementation of what the parties have already agreed.
Lord Cormack (Con)
Should not all of us throughout the United Kingdom remember the courage of my noble friend Lord Trimble and John Hume, and the courage and imagination of the late Lord Bannside and Mr McGuinness at that difficult stage, and should we not realise that if welfare reform is indeed taken back into the Westminster Parliament, that will be not the last resort but the first step towards direct rule being reimposed? That would be an ill vote of thanks to those who have struggled so much, and a very sad new chapter for that part of the United Kingdom.
Lord Dunlop
I echo what my noble friend said about the original architects of the Good Friday agreement. All of us in this House should recognise that the Stormont House agreement of December 2014 was a fantastic achievement by all the parties in Northern Ireland. I hope that the message will go out from this House that we want to build on that achievement. That is what the talks that will start this evening are all about.
Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2015
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the draft Order laid before the House on 8 July be approved.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, this statutory instrument makes provision to adopt for the purposes of Northern Ireland Assembly elections the same polling districts and polling stations already in place for parliamentary elections.
Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly are elected using parliamentary constituencies. However, at previous elections the polling districts, or wards, used were those drawn up for local government elections. Following the reorganisation of district councils in Northern Ireland in 2012, the local electoral boundaries were changed. This resulted in polling district boundaries that no longer sit discretely within the parliamentary constituencies.
The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland has made it clear that it is not possible for him to hold an election where the wards straddle two constituencies. So, in advance of the general election, the last Government introduced legislation that removed the formal link which provided for local government polling districts to be used at parliamentary elections.
Under the new provisions introduced for the general election, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland now has a duty to designate the polling districts to be used for parliamentary elections, and the Chief Electoral Officer a duty to designate polling stations within those districts.
The polling districts that the Secretary of State has designated for the purposes of the parliamentary elections are the ones that were in place before the reorganisation of local government boundaries in Northern Ireland. The effect is to retain for Westminster elections the same polling districts as previously used for the 2010 general election and the last Assembly election.
The purpose of this order is to seek to close the legislative gap that has existed for Assembly elections since 2013 by applying the parliamentary polling districts and polling places used for parliamentary elections to Assembly elections. This measure will have the effect of maintaining the status quo, retaining the polling districts that voters are familiar with.
The order provides that the polling places used for the Assembly election will be those listed in the polling station scheme drawn up by the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland. He will have a duty to amend the scheme in relation to Assembly elections if he considers that the parliamentary scheme does not adequately provide for voters at an Assembly election. As a result of this order, electors and interested parties will have recourse to the Electoral Commission to appeal the scheme if they are not content.
I hope that noble Lords will agree that making provision to re-establish the link between parliamentary and Assembly polling districts and polling places is a necessary and logical step to take in advance of the Assembly elections, and are reassured that these changes are fully supported by both the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer. I therefore commend the order to the House.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us about any contact taking place with the parties in Northern Ireland with regard to these measures, and perhaps a bit more about the appeal process, if they want to appeal them?
Lord Dunlop
The parties have been consulted and there is an appeal process. Indeed, an appeal is going on with regard to a polling station in Dungannon, and is currently being considered by the Electoral Commission.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, there is no need to repeat everything outlined by the Minister. The measure is absolutely necessary because of the redrawing of local government boundaries and has our support.