Animal Welfare: Cats and Dogs
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Black on securing a debate on this important subject. I echo the generous comments made by him and other noble Lords about the wonderful charities operating with pets. My noble friend reminded me, as did the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that I, too, should declare an interest as a 50% shareholder in a rescue poodle crossed with a Shih Tzu. I am not sure of the breed name for that.
Although I am the Minister with responsibility for companion animal welfare, my ministerial remit applies only to England. As noble Lords will know, animal welfare is a devolved policy area in the United Kingdom, so I hope my noble friend Lord Lexden will forgive me if I therefore focus on what we are doing to improve welfare for cats and dogs in England. He might like to know that I regularly meet with Ministers from the devolved Administrations and our discussions range widely.
Promoting responsible pet ownership—something referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle—remains a clear element of the coalition commitment. More responsible pet owners lead to improved welfare for all pets. The comprehensive legislation providing for and underpinning the welfare of all pet animals is the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and my noble friend paid a fitting tribute to the previous Government for so legislating. That Act not only introduces offences for animal fighting and cruelty, but offers a preventive element by placing a duty of care on owners to provide for the welfare needs of their animals. There are statutory codes of practice on the welfare of cats and dogs that summarise the important things to consider when making decisions on how to care for a pet.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend, spoke of the sale of pets and in particular the Pet Animals Act 1951. I understand that there were proposed plans under the previous Government to review existing legislation following the introduction of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. However, they did not pursue the matter. This Government are not pursuing an overhaul either. Having said that, legislation is already being looked at under the red-tape challenge. In the context of my noble friend Lady Parminter’s broad question, perhaps I can return to that later.
In addition, noble Lords are well aware of timetabling pressures. We need to focus on the most urgent changes necessary to protect public safety. We see those changes now in Clauses 98 and 99 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill currently before your Lordships. Rather than take time now—and we will be short of time—I hope that noble Lords are prepared to have those debates when we come to those parts of the Bill.
Where someone is in the business of selling animals as pets in a pet shop or through any other medium, they must be licensed under the 1951 Act. Despite being more than 60 years old, the Pet Animals Act still requires someone who is in the business of selling animals to have a valid licence from their local authority. I will return to that subject in a moment.
As well as important legislative changes we are making to improve the welfare of cats and dogs in United Kingdom, we are also taking forward important non-legislative policies and tools. The key issue here, as my noble friend Lord Black said, is the advertising and selling of cats, dogs and other pets online, which is increasingly controversial as the use of the internet to facilitate such sales increases. We have seen prohibited dogs for sale and cats and dogs kept in unacceptable conditions being advertised. I know that some organisations have called for the advertising of pets online simply to be prohibited. However, having considered this very carefully, my position is that such an approach would be very difficult to enforce and indeed would be likely to increase the risk of pushing unscrupulous advertisers underground.
We stand a much greater chance of success by engendering an improved culture in how our pets are bought and sold in this country. This must be done by better education of buyers, sellers and those in the middle, such as advertising sites that link the two. To that end, I thank the members of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group for their work in this area and their successes so far.
PAAG is a group of animal welfare, keeping and veterinary organisations that have come together to look at the issue of pet advertising. In September, I was privileged to represent the Government in endorsing their minimum standards for classified websites, attending the launch of the standards and holding a meeting with representatives from seven of the most prominent classified ad sites in the country. The engagement with PAAG and the Government on this matter by the sites has been really very encouraging, and I am grateful.
We are also working with PAAG and the sites to ensure that potential new pet owners are as fully informed as possible about ownership and the responsibilities that it brings. This is especially important today when purchasing a pet is so easy. Most of the websites already provide welfare advice and we are aiming to top this up with on-screen devices such as pop-ups that will further remind new owners of their duties under the Animal Welfare Act and the responsibility that comes with owning a pet.
In the past year, and as part of the move to the new GOV.UK website, we have included additional information on points to consider when buying a puppy and highlighted important organisations, which are well placed to offer detailed advice in order to ensure that your puppy is healthy. We will continue to remind the public of using the valuable resources that are already available—such as the BVA AWF puppy contract when considering buying a puppy. The wonderful pet charities have extensive user-friendly information available. Above all, we urge the public to consider re-homing a rescue cat or dog before buying a kitten or puppy.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, I am conscious that we are approaching the festive season when people begin to consider pets as presents. I reiterate the 35 year-old message that a pet is for life. It is a message that the Government will be sending out over the next few weeks to ensure that pet ownership is not seen as a light undertaking.
The work on advertising of cats and dogs crosses over into that of breeding, as we see significant numbers of puppies and kittens for sale, as noble Lord, Lord Trees, and others mentioned. As noble Lords will know, there is legislation on the breeding of dogs to protect the welfare of all dogs involved.
Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, local authorities have the power to license those in the business of breeding dogs. I reiterate that the so-called five litter test, which is referred to in the legislation, is a maximum, not a minimum limit. Whether someone needs a licence is first and foremost about whether they are in the business of breeding and selling dogs. There is an obvious read-across into how HMRC defines trading for tax reporting purposes. It helpfully provides nine indicators to aid individuals and authorities in determining whether their earnings are from trading. If some of these indicators are met by dog breeders, then they are in the business of breeding dogs and must be subject to licensing conditions. But even if someone is not in the business of breeding, anyone producing five litters or more per year must be licensed.
For further clarity, I think it is worth addressing the issue of so-called “hobby breeders”, which some noble Lords have referred to. Where hobby breeders are in the business—for instance, there is a profit-seeking motive or a systematic selling system—then these too should be licensed, even if they breed only two litters per year.
I should also emphasise that all breeders of dogs and cats, regardless of their licensing status, may be investigated by local authorities under the Animal Welfare Act where there are welfare concerns. It is for local authorities to prioritise such activities in their area and demonstrate the level of necessary resource that should be allocated. The public should alert their local authority where they have welfare concerns on any breeding establishment or if they believe an unlicensed breeder should be licensed.
The noble Lord, Lord Trees, spoke of standards of breeding. I am very heartened by initiatives such as the BVA and the Kennel Club canine health schemes, and veterinarians are generally being proactive in educating breeders and owner clients on the health consequences of breeding dogs with inherited disease or extreme conformation. The work here of the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding to improve standards is very welcome. The noble Lord, I hope, will be pleased to hear that Defra is assisting in supporting updating of the guidance for breeding establishments, which will be released shortly and should contribute to better implementation and enforcement of the regulations.
I am about half way through what I wanted to say, but I have just been told that I have no more than two minutes left. I will go as far as I can and then if I may write to noble Lords on points that I am unable to cover. My noble friends Lord Black and Lady Fookes made important points about the benefits of neutering. The Government recommend that owners ensure their pets are neutered in order to limit the number of accidental litters and safeguard the welfare of existing animals. I know that a number of charities are strong advocates of neutering. I cannot commit to a government-backed national neutering day, but we will certainly work with those I have mentioned in order to ensure that the public receive the right message on neutering.
My noble friend Lord Black referred to attacks on cats. Such attacks are immensely distressing for owners and, clearly, for the pets involved. I can assure my noble friend that this is something the Government take very seriously. It is not the norm for dogs routinely to attack cats, although many naturally have a chasing instinct. I will write to my noble friend further on that.
I know that I have to write my noble friend Lady Parminter on the consolidation of the dog legislation—not something that we propose to do, but I need to explain to her why not. Likewise, I must write to my noble friend Lady Fookes about electronic training aids, which is an important subject. I have made sure that I have personally experienced those aids, so that I can form an opinion on them. Yes, I survived.
I wanted to find a moment to tell my noble friend that Defra’s chief vet will be holding an “Ask Defra” session on cat welfare and cat protection shortly.
In closing, I thank noble Lords for an interesting debate on this important issue which is, as your Lordships know, something in which I am particularly interested. I hope that what I have said this evening, perhaps combined with what I shall say in writing, will be useful to clarify what the Government are doing and the work we continue to do in this area.
Food: Waste
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Parminter
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with supermarkets about food waste.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, we are working with retailers through the Waste and Resources Action Programme to reduce food waste. We have set targets on reducing food and packaging waste for food retailers and manufacturers under the third phase of the Courtauld commitment which runs from 2013 to 2015. This phase targets a further 1.1 million tonnes of waste reduction. Forty-nine signatories have already signed up to the commitment, with a combined share of more than 90% of the UK grocery market based on sales.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that only one supermarket—Tesco—has published its food waste figures? How can the appalling levels of waste be driven down without more monitoring and reporting? Will the Government require all major food businesses and supermarkets to publish their food waste figures in their annual reports?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, retailers are already reporting their food waste figures to WRAP under the voluntary Courtauld commitment, so legislation specifically is not needed. Tesco’s initiative, which I warmly welcome, shows that the voluntary approach is working. Retailers like Tesco recognise that food waste is a global issue. Knowing where the waste is occurring is the first step to dealing with it and means they can focus their efforts in the right places.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, as this is a global issue, and indeed a European issue, what are we doing with Europe to look at the framework and to develop that in a European context?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we are working extremely closely with the EU. EU drivers of food waste policy include the landfill directive’s targets to reduce biodegradable waste going to landfill and the revised waste framework directive’s requirements to manage waste according to the waste hierarchy, recycle 50% of household waste by 2020 and ensure that biodegradable waste is treated sustainably. We will continue those discussions.
Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con)
My Lords, I echo my noble friend’s point about the Tesco waste figures, which are independently audited. It is also donating 2,300 tonnes of surplus fresh food waste, which is 7 million meals, to FareShare. While I agree that that shows that other supermarkets should do the same, will the Government please encourage them all to do as much as they can?
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend makes a very important point. Indeed, that is why we are continuing to pursue the Courtauld commitment initiative, which was started under the previous Government and which has been extremely effective.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, as the growth in popularity of TV food programmes shows, we Brits love our food but we also love a two-for-one offer and the convenience of bagged salad. Between bake-off and BOGOF is the contradiction that many of us throw away more and more food while the numbers becoming reliant on food banks are spiralling, as people struggle with the cost of living crisis. Is there not a need therefore for the Government to work with retailers, broadcasters and others to help educate consumers, rather than having an Education Secretary who stigmatises and blames food bank users while downgrading the importance of cooking in the curriculum?
Lord De Mauley
I was with the noble Lord until shortly before the end, which is why we place such store by the “Love Food Hate Waste” programme, which was initiated by WRAP. The good news, which the noble Lord may not know, is that “Buy one, get one free” deals represent a relatively small proportion of supermarket promotions. The majority of promotions are temporary price reductions: for example, “Was £8, now £6”. “Buy one, get one free” deals are often on non-perishable items or items with long lives, and WRAP is working with retailers to encourage alternative promotions for perishable foods.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, in his initial reply, my noble friend the Minister mentioned excessive packaging. What success has there been in reducing excessive packaging? We still have lots of wrapping around our shirts and around cucumbers, all of it unnecessary, yet at the same time we are telling local authorities to increase recycling.
Lord De Mauley
That also is a very important point. We have some pretty aggressive packaging recycling targets, which go up to 2017. However, particularly in respect of food, there are relatively limited opportunities for more substantial reductions without resulting in product damage due to underpackaging. The environmental impact of that would be greater than that of the packaging itself.
Lord Vinson (Con)
My Lords, 100 years ago food waste was fed to pigs. Today, food that is consumed by humans one day is regarded as unfit or unsuitable to feed to pigs the next. Here is a natural, sensible recycling course to use up this waste. Will the Government look at the regulations, particularly those EU regulations, that prevent the feeding of surplus foodstuffs to pigs, with a view to opening up a sensible recycling route and saving a massive amount of waste?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, of course human safety has to be our key concern. There is EU regulation in place, to which my noble friend referred, that restricts the feeding of food waste to farm animals, although I am sure he is aware that there are some exceptions with low-risk foods such as bread, vegetables and fruit. We keep the situation regarding disposal of food and catering waste under review but, as I say, the main focus must be on human safety. There are of course other routes for food waste, such as anaerobic digestion.
Natural Capital Committee
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
I start by thanking my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer for raising this important issue today. I welcome the chance to discuss the vital topic of England’s natural capital. As my noble friend set out, our natural capital provides a range of essential services to society. We all rely on the benefits of natural capital for our clean air, water, food, energy and well-being.
The contents of my noble friend’s speech and, indeed, that of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, draw me to make a couple of declarations of interest. I have a farm with a river running through it and some trees growing on it, so I hope noble Lords will appreciate that I come to this with an interest in, and a limited amount of knowledge of, some of the issues.
Lord Grantchester
The Minister’s comments remind me that I omitted to declare my interests in the farming field.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, natural capital therefore underpins two of the Government’s key priorities: encouraging economic growth and enhancing the natural environment. These two agendas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the sensible use of our natural assets is an essential precondition of our prosperity.
In its first report, The State of Natural Capital, published in April this year, the Natural Capital Committee made just this compelling argument: that long-term economic growth will be undermined if we continue to erode our natural capital. The Government agree: long-term prosperity is possible only if we preserve the foundations on which our economy and well-being are based.
It is therefore crucial that we measure, value and protect our stocks of natural capital. Indeed, this is why the Government set up the independent Natural Capital Committee in 2012, the first of its kind in the world. The committee has been asked to provide expert, independent advice to government on the state of England’s natural capital assets. In the past, the benefits that flow from our natural capital have too often been taken for granted, and as a result our assets have become eroded.
The job of the Natural Capital Committee is to highlight where we are not on a sustainable path and advise the Government on how they should prioritise action to protect and improve natural capital. This will help us deliver on the White Paper commitment to leave the natural environment in a better state than that in which it was inherited.
I read with great interest the Natural Capital Committee’s first report earlier this year, which set out its views on why valuing, maintaining and restoring natural capital is important. It also presented initial evidence of the benefits of incorporating natural capital into decision-making at all levels.
As my right honourable friend Owen Paterson’s and the Economic Secretary to the Treasury’s official response to The State of Natural Capital makes clear, the Government welcome and fully support the analysis offered in it. However, the specific issue of what resources have been reallocated in light of the Natural Capital Committee’s assessments is as yet difficult to address. I shall discuss that a little more in a moment.
The committee’s first major publication was a framework-setting document that principally set out what it was going to do to inform its next annual report. It contained no substantive recommendations to the Government that required an immediate change in resource allocation. Rather, the majority of the recommendations referred to work that the NCC is undertaking. For example, one of the key recommendations was to develop metrics to value and measure changes to natural capital. This is a job that the committee is undertaking. It is currently doing excellent work to advance our understanding of England’s natural capital assets. This will be reported on in the second state of natural capital report.
As we have yet to be advised to take specific substantive action, it is not yet possible to attempt meaningfully to hold government to account on the Natural Capital Committee’s recommendations. One potential exception to this is the Government’s work to develop national natural capital accounts.
The Natural Capital Committee recommended that work led by the Office for National Statistics to produce UK environmental accounts should be,
“given the greatest possible support by Government”.
I can confirm that that is the case and, despite the scale of the challenge involved, work is progressing well. My department and the Office for National Statistics are working closely with the Natural Capital Committee to ensure that the accounts are completed on target by 2020. Resource had already been allocated to this work.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether we will produce a full response to the committee’s next report. We are very much looking forward to it. We will respond appropriately once we have seen what the report contains and have had chance to consider it.
Another area where resources are being committed to the important subject of natural capital is research—my noble friend Lady Miller referred to that. Following discussions with the committee, the Natural Environment Research Council recently announced that it was contributing £5 million to a programme that will deliver on the research priorities of the NCC and its aim to improve understanding of how the state of the natural environment affects the performance of the economy and individual well-being. This is good news and another sign of how seriously the work of the committee is being taken.
In addition to the Natural Environment Research Council’s important contribution, the Natural Capital Committee is undertaking some research of its own to enhance our understanding of natural capital, which it will advise on in its second state of natural capital report. We are very much looking forward to reading that report, the development of which is under way. It will be submitted to the Economic Affairs Committee in early 2014.
It is, of course, too early to speculate what resource implications this may have for the Government, but we will consider them at the appropriate time. I appreciate that there is eagerness to push forward with the natural capital agenda, and that eagerness is shared by Defra and the rest of government.
My noble friend Lady Miller highlighted the importance of soils, and I echo her enthusiasm for them. We recognise that soils are an essential part of our natural resources and support food production, carbon storage, water filtration, biodiversity and wildlife. I can find little to disagree with in what she said about them.
She also spoke about bees and pollinators. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, also mentioned them. Noble Lords may like to know that today we are holding a workshop of interested NGOs and other parties on the national pollinator strategy. We are working towards the publication of a document at the end of the year which will go for consultation with a view to finalising it in spring 2014. I am excited about that.
My noble friend asked about the common agricultural policy and the extent to which we are moving in what one might describe as away from subsidising production towards paying for environmental benefit. The United Kingdom has always made clear that we would like to move away from subsidies in the long run. We support a greener cap with the emphasis on Pillar 2, recognising that there is scope for using taxpayers’ money to pay farmers for public goods that the market otherwise would not reward, such as protecting the natural environment and supporting biodiversity. We negotiated hard to secure a final outcome that was a significant improvement on the Commission’s original proposals, but it is very disappointing that we did not get as far as we would have liked. Securing the flexibility to transfer up to 15% from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2 was a good outcome of this set of negotiations. The Government have always made the case that transferring funding from Pillar 1, which is subsidy, to Pillar 2, which is in favour of the environment and the rural economy, represents the best use of taxpayers’ money while supporting farmers to deliver the valuable goods and services that the market left alone would not provide.
As part of our consultation on the implementation of the new cap in England, we would welcome the views of interested parties, including, of course, noble Lords, on how much that transfer should be. That consultation will commence shortly.
My noble friend also mentioned the Thames tunnel, but in the interests of economy of time, I hope she will forgive me if I leave that until the next debate.
My noble friend Lord Courtown mentioned work he has been doing in the north Swindon area, which I know well. He talked about retaining existing features—hedges, trees and so on—while conducting development between them. I congratulate him and thank him on that.
My noble friend asked about co-operation between Defra and other government departments on natural capital. The natural environment White Paper is a cross-government document. It contains a number of important cross-government commitments, and we have made good progress on them. We work closely with the Treasury and have produced new supplementary Green Book guidance for all government departments on valuing nature in policy appraisal. The Natural Capital Committee will report to the Chancellor’s Economic Affairs Committee. In the planning system, the new NPPF is a good outcome. I regularly meet Ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government. There is also good work in the area of schools and health, so I can confirm to my noble friend that we work across government departments.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised a number of issues. In forestry, he will know that we have accepted the vast majority of the recommendations of the independent panel led by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who we thank enormously for his work.
The noble Lord spoke about tree diseases and pests. He will know that since concerns about Chalara arose some 12 or 13 months ago, we have developed a risk register of pests and diseases, and we have progressed substantially with contingency planning. Both those elements were recommended in a report by the experts we convened.
He asked whether the Government will provide advice on marine conservation zones. The NCC’s terms of reference are very clear that the committee may not perform a watchdog or advocacy role with respect to government policy decisions or be policy prescriptive in its advice. However, the NCC is interested in all categories of natural capital and will provide advice on whether all assets are being used sustainably.
I am running out of time. If I have not answered all noble Lords’ questions, I will write to them. I ask your Lordships to accept that we have already shown international leadership in this field and no longer take our natural capital assets for granted. We recognise that natural capital is integral to delivering sustained, and sustainable, economic growth in England. As a result, the Government fully support the work of the Natural Capital Committee and are looking forward to its upcoming advice.
Thames Tideway Tunnel
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, this has been a most interesting and informative debate, with a good exchange of views on many aspects of the Thames tunnel project. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his assiduousness in pressing the Government on this subject. I will try to address as many of the issues raised as I can, but before I do that, I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, for his thoughtful contribution, but no one do I thank more than the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for confirming that the Opposition support the project.
I believe that there is widespread acceptance that it is unacceptable for a leading European city in the 21st century to have a major river flowing through it that is increasingly taking on some of the characteristics of an open sewer. However, this situation in London is not new. We have known about it for well over 10 years. In that time, there has been much consideration and study of possible solutions to the problem, from all angles by a range of experts.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what assessment the Government have made of the proposals for the Thames tideway tunnel. A tunnel-based solution first emerged from the Thames tideway strategic study. That group, which was established in 2001 and reported in 2005, comprised the Greater London Authority, Defra, Thames Water, the Environment Agency and Ofwat, in an observer capacity, with an independent chairman. The group considered a range of alternative solutions, drawing on the technical expertise of numerous bodies and professional advisers, before arriving at its conclusion that a full-length tunnel was the preferred solution for reducing the number of combined sewer overflow spills and meeting the environmental objectives for the river.
In 2007, the then Government published a regulatory impact assessment of sewage collection and treatment for London which examined these and a range of other proposed options. The overall conclusion was that only a full-length tunnel would provide a cost-effective solution that met the tideway environmental objectives for the river within a reasonable timescale. Accordingly, the then Government asked Thames Water to proceed with developing detailed proposals for a tunnel. Since then, Thames Water has refined its proposals and consulted extensively on them.
Defra officials are working closely with Ofwat and Thames Water to ensure that the costs are tightly controlled, so that customer bill increases over time to pay for the financing of the tunnel are kept as low as possible and provide value for money. In addition, in November 2011 Defra published an updated assessment of the proposed options to address sewage in the Thames and an updated cost-benefit assessment. These were entitled Creating a River Thames Fit for our Future—A Strategic and Economic Case for the Thames Tunnel and Costs and Benefits of the Thames Tunnel.
In 2012, Parliament considered and approved the Government’s National Policy Statement for Waste Water, with debates in both Houses. This set out the need for major wastewater infrastructure, compared the alternative solutions for the Thames, and concluded that a tunnel was the preferred solution. The National Policy Statement for Waste Water will be used by the Planning Inspectorate in considering Thames Water’s current application for a development consent order for the tunnel. In 2012, my department also published its Thames Tunnel evidence assessment, to ensure that due consideration had been given to the full range of evidence available on all the proposed options to address the problem of sewage pollution in the River Thames. This included an annex listing all 36 of the relevant supporting studies and reports.
Earlier this year, in view of representations being made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, among others, that some US cities were implementing sustainable urban drainage systems, or SUDS, and green infrastructure to address their overflow problems, we asked the Environment Agency to carry out an assessment of the evidence on whether SUDS could deliver the environmental standards set for the River Thames. The review, published last week, concluded that all the available evidence, comprising more than 70 relevant studies, shows that SUDS alone could not achieve this.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred to Philadelphia. If I may, I will dwell for a moment on what some major US cities are doing, because the US has federal standards which are not dissimilar to those set by EU law. Washington DC has just started boring a deep five-mile tunnel of similar dimensions to the Thames tideway tunnel. This is part of a 12-mile tunnel system that aims to reduce combined sewer overflows by 96%, a similar standard to that proposed for the Thames tideway tunnel.
Major storage and transplant tunnels are also a key feature of solutions put in place to tackle combined sewer overflows in Milwaukee and Wisconsin. Pittsburgh is attempting to achieve a similar standard through the 25-year implementation of sustainable drainage systems. In Portland, Oregon, SUDS have been used to remove approximately 8 million cubic metres of storm water a year. This is 35% of its total sewer overflow volume, but tunnels still prove necessary to meet the required levels of control. Philadelphia aims to tackle 85% of its sewer overflow discharges using SUDS over a 25-year period. The work has been going on for five years now, but a tunnel solution may still be necessary to meet the required environmental standards.
Unlike London, Philadelphia and Portland have a geology which is suitable for SUDS. The soils underlying the cities’ SUDS areas are more porous and more able to soak up excess rainwater. The main point is that each solution reflects the particular building density, geology, rainfall patterns and existing sewer system of that city.
There does not therefore appear to be any case to revisit the case for the tunnel as it is set out in the national policy statement. I have also seen compelling recent evidence of the scale of the problem with wastewater discharges into the Thames, and I am advised that the serious rainfall event last weekend resulted in more than 1 million tonnes of wastewater being discharged into the river over a very short period of time. A tunnel would have captured these discharges, and transferred them for treatment in time to handle any subsequent heavy rainfall events. I do not believe that supporters of SUDS as an alternative to the tunnel have demonstrated how they would handle events of this type.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, also referred to the work of Professor Binnie. We believe that the environmental criteria set in 2007 remain robust, are not gold-plated, and should not be downgraded. Alternatives such as a shorter western tunnel combined with SUDS would not meet the environmental objectives for the Thames tideway in an acceptable timeframe or at lower cost than the full-length tunnel.
A further important factor is the 2012 European Court of Justice ruling that the UK was in breach of the urban waste water treatment directive in London, which means that there is an increased likelihood of very significant infraction fines if we do not comply within a reasonable period of time. The risk of fines has been reinforced by the very recent fines ruling against Belgium for not complying quickly enough with a previous adverse court judgment with regard to waste water collection and treatment.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what the tunnel solution will deliver. The Thames tideway tunnel would reduce the frequency of spills from the 34 combined sewer overflows in London intended to be caught by the proposed tunnel from around 50 to 60 to just three or four times a year during extreme rainfall events, with the estimated overflow volume falling from around 18 million to 2.5 million tonnes. That would improve water quality, with benefits for wildlife and river users. It will also ensure that we continue to meet the UK’s obligations under the urban waste water treatment directive and the water framework directive. We are clear that the overflow volume to be addressed by the tunnel is 18 million tonnes, not the 39 million stated by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, as quoted by Thames.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, also asked about the financing of the project. The Government believe that the private sector can and should finance this project. Although the Government can provide financial assistance in any form in relation to the tunnel, we have stated that this will be contingent financial support for exceptional project risks, to help ensure the cost of financing the project is kept to a minimum and offers best value for money for customers and taxpayers. However, we will want to be assured, when offering this contingent support, that the taxpayer is appropriately protected by measures that minimise the likelihood of these exceptional risks materialising.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked about customers outside London paying for the tunnel. It is worth saying that London customers have helped to finance major sewerage investments outside the capital that serve a much smaller population. When improvements are needed, for example, in rural Oxfordshire, the cost is spread among all customers of sewerage services, including those living in London. This approach, which is supported by Ofwat, is standard across England and Wales and is the fairest way of apportioning the costs of investment in water and sewerage services.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, suggested that Thames Water should pay for the tunnel from existing funds. Paying for the project from any accumulated reserves would neither reduce the cost to customers nor remove the requirement for some type of government support. This is a major tunnelling project and has a risk profile significantly beyond that typically expected of a water and sewerage company. That is why the tunnel is expected to be financed and delivered by an independent infrastructure provider with its own licence from Ofwat and backed by some form of government support related to exceptional project risks.
The Government believe that the private sector can and should finance the project but accept that there are some risks that are not likely to be borne by the private sector at an acceptable cost. The Government are therefore willing, in principle, to provide contingent financial support for exceptional project risks where that offers best value for money for customers and taxpayers.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am sure I will in a minute. We will want to be assured that when offering contingent support, taxpayers’ interests remain a top priority. The taxpayer must be appropriately protected by measures that minimise the likelihood of these exceptional risks. We are working on the detail with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK, Her Majesty’s Treasury and Thames Water to ensure that there is a minimal likelihood of contingent government support ever being called on.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about the status of planning. Given that Ministers have a quasi-judicial role in the planning process, I hope the noble Lord does not expect me to go into detail at the moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked about bill increases. We have always made it clear that the estimate of £70 to £80 is, indeed, only an estimate and should not be used, as it was in a recent paper, to reverse engineer a notional investor return. If the project is delivered through an infrastructure provider, the actual figure that appears on Thames bills will be set following the competition for the financing of the project. That will ensure best value for money for customers and keep bill increases as small as possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked just now what contingent financial support really means. The support will occur in the case of unlikely events such as severe debt market disruption, significant cost overruns due to extreme tunnelling conditions and any caps on commercially available insurance.
Over the past 10 years, the Government have undertaken lengthy and thorough assessments of the Thames tideway tunnel project and alternatives. They have concluded that the tunnel represents the most cost-effective, timely and comprehensive solution to the problem of sewage pollution in the River Thames in London.
Golden Rice
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hayman
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they are taking to support the introduction of “golden rice” to help alleviate childhood blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, golden rice is being developed by the independent, non-profit, International Rice Research Institute. The UK is providing £120 million of core funding over three years to the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research, of which IRRI is a member. The Government are also providing up to £30 million of support for the CGIAR’s Harvest Plus programme, which researches nutritionally improved or bio-fortified food crops.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply and for the robust and principled attitude that I believe Her Majesty’s Government are taking in this matter. The World Health Organisation estimates that half a million of the world’s poorest children go blind every year, and half of those children die every year because of vitamin A deficiency. Against that background, should we not all agree that we should welcome the philanthropic and scientific work that has gone into the development of golden rice, enriched by vitamin A? Should we not be prepared to challenge the opposition of those who fight its introduction on a basis of ideology and zero tolerance to anything that has the initials GM against it, regardless of the cost in children’s lives?
Lord De Mauley
I so agree with the noble Baroness. It is worth quoting from Professor Tom Sanders, who is Professor of Nutrition & Dietetics at King’s College London, who said:
“Vitamin A deficiency remains a major problem in South Asia contributing to increased childhood mortality from infectious diseases such as measles as well as being a major cause of blindness. Rice is the staple cereal in most of those countries and golden rice, which contains the precursor of vitamin A, beta-carotene, has been shown to be effective at improving nutritional status with regard to vitamin A”.
Lord Taverne (LD)
My Lords, will my noble friend warmly congratulate the Secretary of State on his remarks? As for the NGOs, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth do much good work and have noble aims. However, their total disregard of the overwhelming evidence in favour of genetically modified crops, which has been available for more than 15 years, means that, on balance, they have probably done more harm than good. Will he ask the Secretary of State to show the same robust approach and transfer the millions of pounds that are available for conversion to organic farming, whose claims are also unfounded, and perhaps make those funds available to our first-class research institutes such as Rothamsted and the John Innes Centre for their excellent work on genetic modification?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, there is quite a lot in that question. There is increasing evidence that the development of golden rice is being blocked by anti-GM NGOs, perhaps because they fear that its successful deployment might generate broader public acceptance of a technology against which they actively campaign. As my noble friend said, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State recently drew attention to the damaging impact that such opposition can have, particularly in those parts of the world where its benefits would be most keenly felt. On my noble friend’s point about funding, our recently announced agrotech strategy will go a long way towards achieving the objectives that he desires.
Lord Walton of Detchant (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the lengthy, mischievous and misconceived opposition in this country to GM modification of foods has done considerable harm? Does he also accept that there is no conceivable scientific evidence to suggest that the current techniques used in genetic modification have any damaging effect on human health, and that in fact GM modification improves many foods and therefore should be pursued? Finally, will he try to persuade his colleagues in the European Union to reverse and abolish the ban that they imposed on GM modification in the Union?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I say a very strong yes to every aspect of the noble Lord’s question. I will also say that what the opponents of this technology have done and are doing is a cause of huge disappointment. We have consistently said that we will need all the tools in the box to feed the global population as it grows to 2050. To deny this will be to deny desperately poor people in developing countries a nourishing diet, and potentially life itself.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that there is no real difference between genetically modified crops and F1 hybrids, which have been with us for decades?
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend is entirely right that there are a large number of technologies, of which GM is but one, all of which are what I describe as tools in the box.
The Countess of Mar (CB)
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that vitamin A rarely occurs in isolation, and that it is necessary to have a substantial amount of fat in the diet for it to be absorbed? What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to promote a good, all-round diet for these children, in order for the vitamin A to be made useful?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, of course the noble Countess makes a really important point. However, we have to say that developing countries are capable, and are proceeding and doing a lot of work themselves to feed their populations. We are talking specifically about how we can help them in the area of genetically modified food, which will increase the vitamin A that is so necessary, in particular to reduce blindness.
The Earl of Selborne (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that the exciting new technologies owe much to research in this country, and does he therefore accept that funding research here is a very effective way for us to tackle the urgent issue of food security around the globe?
Lord May of Oxford (CB)
Does the Minister agree that golden rice is part of a much larger problem? Climate change will exacerbate the difficulties that we already have in supplying food to the growing number of people we will have to deal with. This is best addressed by creating drought-resistant and other kinds of crops into which, with surgical precision, we can put the relevant genes, as distinct from what are regarded by the opponents of GM as natural crops, which have been produced by irradiation and picking things out in a much more Frankensteinian process? Does this topic not stand for a much larger issue?
Lord De Mauley
I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. I focused on golden rice because the Question encapsulated it. Of course, the noble Lord is absolutely right.
Badgers
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, the Somerset pilot cull concluded on 6 October and current indications are that the pilots have been safe, effective and humane in delivering a reduction in the badger population of just under 60%. Natural England is considering an application from Somerset for a short extension of the culling period, as provided for under the agreement with the company there. In doing so, Natural England will take into account the practicalities on the ground. It expects to make a decision later this week.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I declare my interest as a resident of the cull area, where the excellent police force is hugely overstretched as a consequence of the cull. The House will be aware that the Government have been unable to see the wood for the trees on this issue, ignoring their own scientific advice that a cull would be both costly and ineffective in tackling bovine TB, and I dispute the Minister’s statistics. As we now have new evidence that this ill thought-through policy is not working, does the Minister agree that extending the cull will only compound the Government’s error of judgment?
Lord De Mauley
The purpose of the cull trials was to establish that this could be undertaken safely, humanely and effectively. The judgment on these will be made by an independent panel but our initial view is that they have been met. The contractors have worked under difficult conditions and considerable provocation and have been scrupulous in their attention to safety, which is the absolute number one priority. A figure of 60% is a significant achievement and the Chief Veterinary Officer endorses that this will lead to a reduction in the disease in cattle.
Lord May of Oxford (CB)
My Lords, this cull went ahead against the balance of advice from the scientific community, in particular that such a limited experiment was unlikely to yield much in the way of useful information. Does the Minister agree with me, however, that we have indeed learnt something important? We have learnt that those responsible for this so-called experiment are so incompetent that they could not even make a reliable estimate of the number of badgers.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I simply cannot agree. I repeat what I said in answer to a similar question earlier this year. The report following the visit to the United Kingdom by the European Commission’s bovine tuberculosis subgroup in March 2012 stated:
“It is however of utmost importance that there is a political consensus and commitment to long-term strategies to combat TB in badgers as well as in cattle ... There is no scientific evidence to demonstrate that badger vaccination will reduce the incidence of TB in cattle. However there is considerable evidence to support the removal of badgers in order to improve the TB status of both badgers and cattle”.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, is it not very early days to be saying that this experiment is not working? The trial has only just begun. Surely we have to wait until some time after the cull has ended to see whether the incidence of TB in cattle has dropped. At that stage, will the Government also look at other forms of wildlife and see whether there is a recovery in the numbers of hedgehogs and ground-nesting birds which have been ravaged by badgers in the past?
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend makes an important point. As I said in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, these judgments will be made by an independent panel. However, as I also said, our initial view is that so far the humaneness, safety and effectiveness tests have been met. I am grateful to my noble friend for his suggestions.
Lord Winston (Lab)
Will the Minister give an assurance that hedgehogs do not encourage tuberculosis in cattle?
Lord De Mauley
That is an extremely interesting and important question, so much so that I will have to write to the noble Lord. I thank him for raising it.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, the Minister said that the culls can be regarded as a success because they have met the criteria of being “safe, humane and effective”, but they have not been effective. The pilot culls have now failed one of those three in that they were set up within six weeks to meet the legal licensing target. What evidence do the Government have that any extension of the cull could increase TB infection, which would add weight to the calls to abandon these pilot culls?
Lord De Mauley
No, my Lords, I am aware of no such evidence. Indeed, as I said just now, the Chief Veterinary Officer endorses that what has happened so far will lead to a reduction in the disease in cattle, and that any more we can do will further contribute to a reduction.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, I accept that badger-borne bovine TB is the despair of the agricultural industry, but has the ministry ever made any calculation of how much bovine TB is non badger-borne? If it has not, how can it possibly indulge in detailed experiments, including culling, unless this information is to hand?
Lord De Mauley
I am grateful for that question because it gives me the opportunity to say that work by Professor Crystl Donnelly has shown that as much as 50% of the incidence of TB in high-risk areas can be attributed to badgers.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
My Lords, does not the Minister have to reflect on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord May? We were told by the experts that there were 2,700 badgers in the area concerned, and we are now told that the experts think there were actually fewer than 1,400. If the experts who supported the policy got the numbers so wrong in the first place, does that not undermine public confidence in the policy as a whole?
Lord De Mauley
I do not think that it should. Our policy is evidence-based and we have taken every opportunity to acquire the latest and most up-to-date information from the pilot areas to refine the estimate of the badger population. All wildlife population estimates have uncertainty around them. Appropriate steps were taken to audit the process, including data checks and independent audits of these figures.
Lord Rotherwick (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend recognise the vulnerability of deer in deer parks? Does he agree that they have to be looked at separately from the way that you look at cattle that succumb to TB? You cannot lock up deer from a deer park in a shed and humanely shoot them; they have to be slaughtered by high-powered rifles. What is my noble friend doing about the situation regarding the vulnerability to TB of deer in deer parks?
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend asks a specific question and I will, if I may, take it away to consider the point about deer in parks. As regards the suggestion that deer may be a reservoir of TB in wildlife as well, we have established that badgers are a particularly good—if I may use that word—host for TB. They are the part of wildlife on which we really have to focus.
Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there is general scientific agreement that the badgers that are left after a cull have a greater propensity to carry over and pass on TB to cattle and that it is a fine balance between the numbers killed and those that survive? Is he aware that there is deep concern that the figures we are provided with are not robust and that the result may be an increase in TB, not a decrease?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, with the greatest of respect, I do not think that the noble Lord’s proposition is correct. The randomised badger-culling trials showed something quite different, which was that above a certain percentage of badgers culled—indeed, the first-year trials in the randomised badger culls were in the 30s of per cent—there was nevertheless a significant effect on the incidence of TB in cattle.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, can we add the humble bumble bee to the list of animals and creatures that are being threatened by the badgers? Bumble bees nest underground, are a great source of delight for the badger to eat and are under threat.
Lord De Mauley
I am very interested in what the noble Earl has said because he will know that we will be launching a national pollinator strategy later this year. Perhaps we can discuss what he suggests in the context of that.
Agriculture: Common Agricultural Policy
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Lord Greaves
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made on greening the common agricultural policy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)
My Lords, agreement on common agricultural policy reform was reached in June at both the Agriculture Council and in the European Parliament. As part of the deal, from 2015, 30% of Pillar 1 farm subsidies will be dependent upon a series of greening practices being carried out on farms. We shall be working in the coming months to devise a greening policy for England. At the same time, we are making plans for the new rural development programme from 2015. I should declare an interest as a beneficiary under the current CAP.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, the progress made on the CAP is welcome, though not as radical as some people will allege. The increased requirements for environmental compliance by farmers who are getting the single payments are particularly welcome. The proposals for transferring more money from Pillar 1 to rural development, including environmental works, are also welcome. Will the Minister assure us that the Government will remain firm on these objectives and not give in to the short-sighted campaign by some people, including the NFU, to try to block these valuable changes?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we have a legal obligation to implement what is known as greening from 2015. No decisions have yet been taken on implementation. We will consult stakeholders, including farmers’ representatives and NGOs. We need to achieve genuine environmental outcomes from greening, without impacting unnecessarily on farmers’ business activities.
Lord Plumb
My Lords, I declare an interest as a farmer. First, to satisfy 28 nations with a policy that is acceptable to all, when we see such a diverse structure of farming there, is a recipe for an uncommon market rather than a common market. Secondly, does my noble friend the Minister not agree that the emphasis at this time should be on the growth of food and the food security part of that, rather than just on greening? The whole emphasis seems to have turned to greening, switching from one pillar to the other. How do the new greening rules overlap with the existing agri-environmental scheme commitments, and what changes will those produce, as against the existing commitments faced, when the greening comes into effect?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, there are a couple of questions in there from my noble friend. Our priorities for CAP reform have always been to help EU agriculture become more competitive and market-oriented while improving the capacity to deliver better environmental outcomes. It is unclear precisely what the greening requirements will look like since the detailed rules have yet to be drawn up. However, we are working to ensure that all these elements are complementary and coherent so that we have a smooth transition to the new programme in 2015.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, could I pursue with the Minister the issue of the existing environmental schemes referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Plumb? Many farmers have signed contractual agreements for the entry-level scheme, and I can claim some responsibility for that scheme, having recommended it. They are under an obligation under those contracts. Will these be jeopardised by the new greening arrangements? There is a lot of concern and some confusion among the farming community on this issue.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. If I have understood him correctly, no, it is very much our intention that they should not be adversely prejudiced.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, notwithstanding the progress being made on greening, what progress is being made on pruning the CAP?
Lord De Mauley
Well, my Lords, that is indeed a question. In the context of the reduced CAP budget, the UK’s key aims for the CAP reform negotiations were to increase the resilience, market orientation and international competitiveness of EU agriculture; to improve the CAP’s capacity to deliver environmental outcomes; and to simplify the CAP for farmers and authorities. We want an efficient and responsive agricultural sector in the EU and globally, and we want the future CAP to achieve this.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I declare my interests in the countryside. Does the Minister’s department recognise that success in greening policies relies very heavily on good will and implementation from farmers? Is the cart before the horse in this instance? Will the Minister outline what the Government want to achieve from greening measures, rather than transferring funds into Pillar 2 from Pillar 1 simply because they can?
Lord De Mauley
I understand the noble Lord’s question, and others have asked that. The Government’s view is that environmental outcomes can be more targeted and more effective if they are delivered through Pillar 2. There will be a new set of environmental measures within Pillar 2 but we will honour the obligation in Pillar 1 to achieve the greening that is set down.
Lord Tomlinson
Does the Minister accept that when we look at the European Union budget, it really does not reflect priorities? We have an agricultural budget that exceeds that of research and development and indeed that of employment measures. While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, on the need to maximise food production, we ought perhaps to take some lessons from the Cairns Group and put them into effect in Europe.
Lord De Mauley
I cannot find very much to disagree with in what the noble Lord says. We worked very hard in the direction in which he is moving. The cut to the CAP budget was €55 billion, which is roughly equal to the annual level of spending on the CAP budget and better than a real freeze.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
My Lords, given the very different patterns of agriculture across the 28 member states, to what extent is there flexibility within the new arrangements for member states to implement the greening measures in a way that suits British farmers and builds on some of the very real progress that they have already made?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. We have fought hard to achieve an element of flexibility in the greening requirements. Perhaps we have not got as far as we would have liked but we are negotiating with nearly 30 other states and, of course, the Parliament.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, can we inject some intelligibility into the language with which these things are described? It really is the most awful gobbledegook. How can people outside be expected to understand about caps, pillars, greening and all this nonsense?
Bees
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Lord Hoyle
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will implement the European Commission decision to restrict the use of neonicotinoid pesticides to protect bees.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)
My Lords, the European Commission implementing regulation requires the new restrictions to be in place by 1 December 2013. We will introduce the restrictions from that date.
Lord Hoyle
Will all these chemicals be monitored? Will the Minister also condemn those commercial interests which are introducing foreign bees with parasites that are damaging our own species?
Lord De Mauley
On the latter point, the noble Lord is right that parasites—particularly the varroa mite, but there are a number of others—are something that we really must watch out for. He asked whether the full range of neonicotinoids is subject to the restrictions. He is right to ask that. There are a couple that are not. I am not sure I can pronounce them but I will try: acetamiprid and thiacloprid—
Lord De Mauley
I am grateful. These are not covered by the restrictions as they are of relatively low acute toxicity to bees. The restrictions apply to the remaining three neonicotinoids—which I hope noble Lords will permit me not to pronounce—and are intended to remove those uses that might cause bees to be exposed to the compounds. Therefore, uses permitted include spray applications made to crops after they have flowered.
The Earl of Selborne
I declare an interest as food grower; my living therefore depends on pollination. Does the Minister accept that, while it is very important to protect bees, it is equally important to protect all insect pollinators? Therefore we have to make sure that their habitat is conserved, which is a much wider issue than just protecting honey bees.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, yes. We have had this discussion in your Lordships’ House before. I was pleased to announce recently that we are developing a national pollinator strategy precisely because of the concerns my noble friend raised.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, may I recommend, as an alternative to pesticides, the method used by the winner of this year’s St Andrews Prize? Around the crop growing areas, the trees were equipped with beehives because the elephants, which were doing the major damage in that area, were terrified of bees. This not only produced safe areas for crops but meant that there was honey money as well.
Lord De Mauley
I am really very grateful to the noble Baroness. Farmers have not been complaining to me recently about the numbers of elephants but I shall keep my ears open.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, reports this weekend that bees and other pollinators have bred well this year are most welcome. More concerning are reports that the lead government scientist on the effect of neonicotinoids on bees is joining Syngenta, one of the leading manufacturers of the insecticide. She previously worked on a Syngenta-funded project on bees and pesticides for Fera. Given the widespread concerns among the public about bee health, what assurances can the Minister give us that this closeness between policymakers and commercial interests benefits taxpayers more than shareholders?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, of course, all public servants go through the proper procedures before they take up a role outside government after they leave government.
Lord Jones of Cheltenham
Noble Lords may have seen a recent programme on ITV about bees, in which the Food Minister David Heath and Matt Shardlow of Buglife gave their views on neonicotinoids. Mr Heath said that there are other chemicals that are even more damaging to bees. Is my noble friend able to tell us what those other chemicals are and what action the Government are taking to ensure that they are not used? While ensuring that our Government implement the suspension of neonicotinoids as soon as possible, will the noble Lord encourage Ministers and officials in his department and scientists who advise them on this issue to take time to watch “Horizon” on BBC2 at 9 pm this Friday, when the presenter Bill Turnbull, himself an experienced beekeeper, investigates “What’s Killing Our Bees?”?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, as regards my noble friend’s second question, I am very grateful to him for resolving the thorny problem of how I should spend my Friday evening. As regards his first question, I am not absolutely sure of the chemicals to which my honourable friend referred. However, in the absence of neonicotinoids, we expect farmers to use the available products, such as pyrethroids and organophosphates, for their particular pest problems. Without something effective, the consequence for farmers could be a reduction in crop yields, potentially substantial in scope. Despite not being as effective as neonics, these other products are legal and have passed the safety tests set in legislation.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle
My Lords, the scientific evidence supporting this is sketchy at best. It appears that some useful work has been done in Australia. Are the Government researching the work that has been done in Australia to help us better understand the impact of these chemicals?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we certainly are aware of the work that has been done in Australia. In fact, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State went there recently and is certainly aware of it. We used that in making our case prior to the vote. That did not seem to work, so we are now working towards doing our own trials to fill out those evidence gaps.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, there is some evidence that bees can tolerate neonicotinoids. However, when combined with glyphosate, which is in the ubiquitous Roundup, their immune systems become affected. That is one of the reasons why they cannot withstand the varroa bug. Can the Minister say how much research is being done on combinations of pesticides and the way they affect bees, particularly their immune systems?
Lord De Mauley
The noble Baroness makes a point which has concerned a number of people. Considerable work has been done, which shows that chemicals with different toxic actions normally act independently. Chemicals with the same toxic action normally act additively. There is only limited evidence for combination effects in excess of those for individual chemicals.
Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2013
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Lord De Mauley
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 20 June be approved.
Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 22 July.
Thames Tideway Tunnel
Lord De Mauley Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that any support provided by HM Treasury for financing the Thames tideway tunnel project has minimal impact on customers’ bills and provides value for taxpayers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)
My Lords, we believe that the private sector should finance the tunnel. However, there are some risks that it may not be able to bear at an acceptable cost. We are willing in principle to provide contingent financial support that encourages private sector investment and offers an incentive to delivery partners to manage project risks and minimise costs. The Government are working to ensure that the tunnel offers value for money for customers and taxpayers, while being financed and delivered efficiently.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. But how will the Government explain to 6 million households that they are required to pay £80 a year extra on their water bills for 100 years or so to a company which last year paid no corporation tax but managed to pay £231 million in dividends to its offshore owner and which has reduced its assets to the extent that it cannot fund the project, with the Government not only guaranteeing it but agreeing to pay for it if they have to? How can this really be good for customers or the taxpayer?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we are faced with the problem of London’s sewers being at or close to capacity and millions of tonnes of sewage overflowing each year. The solution costs a great deal of money—more than £4 billion—so we need a sophisticated way to finance it. Thames Water pays its tax, and the entity which builds the tunnel will pay its tax, but water and sewerage companies have to make huge investments in infrastructure, the tunnel being a classic example. Therefore, while all companies are eligible for capital allowances, water companies perhaps appear to benefit more from them than others. We expect Thames Water’s customers’ bills to rise by about £70 to £80 a year to pay for the tunnel, which would still leave them paying below the national average. Removing capital allowances would of course mean that those bills would increase further.
The Earl of Selborne
My Lords, surely an infrastructure project of this lifespan, expense and complexity should deliver more than just a cleaner river. Is my noble friend confident that the project will deliver flood-risk management, drought management, nature conservation and reuse of water, all of which future generations would certainly expect from a project of this size?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. Of course, the primary purpose of the tunnel is to reduce the impact of sewage pollution on the river, thus, I think, indirectly contributing to recreation by giving us a cleaner river. However, my noble friend’s question leads me to the broader point, which is that the tunnel on its own is not enough. We also need sustainable drainage systems. I was visiting some very innovative solutions today in Herne Hill. Those solutions are not able to deal with the whole problem on their own either, but they can directly contribute to flood—particularly surface water—and drought management, conservation, recreation and better public places.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I fully recognise the need for the tunnel but is the Minister aware that most of the boating and swimming on the tidal Thames is upstream of Hammersmith and that, even with the tunnel and additional improvements, there will still be discharges of raw sewage in this area? Therefore, can he tell me why the tunnel is stopping at Hammersmith?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, when, some three decades ago, the Conservative Government privatised water, did they expect that a company such as Thames Water would pay no corporation tax in the past year, as has been stated, despite considerable profits and a major distribution of dividends, and that it would then come to the taxpayer for necessary investment on this major project? What will be the basis of equity in these terms as far as this private company is concerned?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thought I had addressed that question when I answered the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Thames Water does not avoid paying tax. HMRC’s capital allowance regime allows companies to delay—not to avoid—paying corporation tax, based on how much they invest. Capital allowances are simply the allowed amortisation of an asset for tax purposes and they exist to encourage companies to carry out crucial investment. The mechanism enables tax to be paid over the lifetime of the asset. If capital allowances did not exist, that would mean either less investment or higher bills for customers.
Lord Deben
Does my noble friend accept that this is an old-fashioned and unacceptable answer to the problem? It is like the Three Gorges dam: it is not the way to do it. Will he please undertake that before any public money is put into this scheme he makes sure that better schemes, which may not be so convenient for the water company concerned—I declare an interest in the water industry—but are more environmentally sensible than this wholly out-of-date proposal, are thought of by the Government?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, while I agree with my noble friend on many things, I do not agree with him on that. After years of work by Governments of both hues, we do not consider that there is a viable, cheaper solution that would simultaneously address the current sewer overflow problems relatively swiftly for the foreseeable future and deliver value for money.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Is not the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, the question being asked by the whole of the British environmental movement, which says that this was the wrong solution and that sustainable developments were possible as an alternative? Why are we wasting £4 billion on this project when there was another solution?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, over the past decade studies have looked at options which include green infrastructure solutions such as sustainable drainage systems. The purpose of the Thames Tunnel Evidence Assessment, published by my department in 2012, was to ensure that due consideration had been given to the full range of evidence available on all the proposed solutions to address sewage in the Thames and to provide an assessment of the nature of that evidence.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, is not the fundamental problem that since privatisation the privatised water utilities have failed to make the investment that is necessary, including in sewers? What are the Government doing to address that in terms of the regulatory environment?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am sorry, I simply do not accept the premise of the noble Lord’s question.