Offshore Petroleum Licensing Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, tabled notice of her intention to oppose Clause 1 standing part of the Bill so let me begin my remarks by briefly outlining the purpose of that clause. Under the Petroleum Act 1998, offshore oil and gas licences are administered by the Oil and Gas Authority, which is operating as the North Sea Transition Authority. A seaward production licence grants exclusive rights to the licensee to explore, bore for and produce oil and gas from the geological formations that lie beneath the UK’s offshore waters, within an area defined by the licence. Additional permissions are required before any activity can take place.

Periodically, the NSTA launches licensing rounds inviting companies to apply for such licences. During this process, interested companies submit bids and licences are awarded to bids that promise to ensure the economic recovery of the UK’s oil and gas resources, while of course supporting the drive to net zero by 2050. This existing arrangement means that industry does not have certainty as to when—or, indeed, if—the NSTA will launch a new licensing round. This clause provides that certainty by amending the Petroleum Act 1998 to place a duty on the NSTA to invite applications for seaward production licences in each annual period, which runs from October to September each year. This is subject to two tests being passed: that the average carbon intensity of domestic UK gas is lower than the average carbon intensity of imported liquified natural gas; and that the UK remains a net importer of both oil and gas.

Together, these tests, which will be conducted by the NSTA, will ensure that the annual duty on the NSTA applies only where this supports our wider energy security and energy transition objectives. If the annual duty is triggered, the NSTA proceeds with the current licensing process. It will remain a matter for the NSTA as an independent regulator to decide how many and which blocks or part-blocks to offer for applications—with a minimum of one block—and to ensure and apply the appropriate criteria for determining those applications. It will remain the responsibility of the NSTA to decide whether to offer and grant any licences at the conclusion of that process and whom to offer them to; the NSTA will retain the discretion to grant licences outside of this new annual process in the usual way where needed.

I assure noble Lords that the offering and granting of licences under the new annual process will remain subject to the existing rigorous environmental regulatory requirements. These include the obligation written into the NSTA’s strategy to assist the Secretary of State in meeting the target of net zero by 2050. Indeed, I want to be clear that nothing in this clause contradicts our steadfast and, of course, legally binding commitment to achieving net zero by 2050. We do not need to choose between either delivering net zero or supporting our domestic oil and gas sector; the two things are not mutually incompatible.

Amendments 11, 13, 14 and 16 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and Amendments 12 and 15 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, seek to amend the carbon intensity test. This test looks at historical carbon dioxide emissions from the production and supply of natural gas during an assessment period spanning the preceding three years. The test is passed if, during that timeframe, per unit of energy, the carbon emissions of producing gas domestically were lower than the average carbon emissions from the production and delivery of liquefied natural gas from all geographic locations.

The amendment put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to change the test to include in the comparison all imported and produced petroleum products, including crude oil, and all forms of natural gas. The amendments put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, seek to include an assessment of the carbon intensity of all imported natural gas.

It is important to recognise that the markets for oil and gas work very differently; it is not possible to make the same comparisons for oil as it is for gas. In the case of gas, we have a choice either to maximise domestic production or to import more. The more gas we produce domestically, the less we need to import; that seems obvious to me. For oil, we do not have that same choice because oil has to be refined before it is used. For historical reasons, UK oil is generally processed abroad—predominantly in Europe, where our production supports the energy security of our European allies. So a comparison of the carbon intensity of imported oil versus domestically produced oil would be the wrong one to make.

Turning to the test for gas, LNG has been chosen as the relevant comparator as it is a critical marginal source of energy, providing an essential buffer source—especially in winter, when gas demand is higher. Over the past decade, LNG has become an increasingly important method of moving natural gas to market. This will only intensify in the coming years because UK natural gas production peaked in 2000 and the UK has been a net importer since 2004 in order to meet domestic demand.

It is fortunate that some of the UK’s gas imports, in particular pipeline imports from Norway, have relatively low production emissions. However, it is a fact that Norwegian production, like our own, is declining. We will still need gas in the coming years as we transition to net zero. With both UK and Norwegian production declining, it is likely that LNG will play an increasingly important role. During periods of high demand in winter, LNG is a key, flexible source of supply; this role will only increase over time as UK and Norwegian production declines. Producing less domestically means importing more carbon-intensive LNG, which is why a comparison with LNG is the right one to make, in our view, and why we have included it in the Bill.

With the explanation I have been able to provide, I hope that it is clear why the test focuses on LNG and not comparators with oil, which is completely different, or other forms of gas. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It is hard to summon up the energy to rebut anything. What the Government proved to us yesterday with the Rwanda Bill is that they are prepared to deny reality. So I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Advanced Modular Reactors: Criticality Tests

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I refer my noble friend to the answer I gave to my noble friend Lady Bloomfield. We have selected high-temperature gas reactors for research and development purposes in the AMR R&D and demonstration programme.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, do the Government give any assistance to these developers in terms of the environmental impact of the entire life cycle of their systems, or is that completely disregarded?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course it is not disregarded. The safety of the UK’s nuclear programme—the disposal of waste nuclear fuels, et cetera—is one of our highest priorities. We have an excellent record when it comes to nuclear in this country.

Biomass: Power Generation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Lord knows—we have been in correspondence on this—I do not agree with him. As I said, we are in discussions with the British Columbia authority. This is not a third-world country; it is perfectly capable of sustainably managing its forests in its own way. There are internationally agreed strict sustainability criteria. It is important that Drax follows those rules. Ofgem is studying its application and will not hesitate to take action against it, as I have said.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I think we are missing a point with some of these answers. The fact is that this is taxpayers’ money going on a business scam. Why can the Government not see that?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not agree with the noble Baroness—I often do not agree with her. This is not a business scam. It is actually bill payers’ money, not taxpayers’ money, but we spend it on a number of different sources, including those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Birt. It is not an either/or equation; we need a variety of different sources of fuel for our electricity and our energy uses. If the energy crisis taught us anything, it is the importance of not relying on one particular source. Yes, we need wind, solar, biomass, nuclear and some gas-fired generation in the short term. We need a resilient energy mix across all the different sources.

Carbon Capture and Storage Infrastructure Fund

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how much of the Carbon Capture and Storage Infrastructure Fund they have awarded in contracts to companies involved in the oil and gas industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, no contracts have yet been awarded through the cluster sequencing process. The amount that may be awarded to individual projects is still subject to negotiations. Project sponsors are from a range of industries including cement, industrial gases, energy from waste, et cetera. In addition, up to £40 million of the CIF is being spent under the UKRI industrial decarbonisation challenge fund, which aims to deliver significant reductions in industrial carbon dioxide emissions.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

That is sort of good news, because I hope that this Government are not going to give any of that funding to fossil fuel companies, or to any other industry that has not only had tax breaks in the past and made massive profits but trashed the planet knowingly. Will the Minister give me any sort of promise that fossil fuel companies will not be entrusted with this sort of technology, which is already considered very risky and ineffective?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No, I will not give the noble Baroness that assurance, for a number of good reasons. First, in the real world, as opposed to in the noble Baroness’s fantasy green world, CCUS is an essential technology.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Climate Change Committee has said that CCUS is essential and not an option if we are to meet our net-zero goal, which we wish to do. Secondly, in a number of industries—cement and energy from waste, et cetera—CCUS is the only option to decarbonise those industries. Unless the noble Baroness is saying that she wants them all to close down, so that we have no building in this country and import all our cement from overseas, what is her practical solution in the real world to delivering these technologies?

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I will send the Minister a manifesto.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just confirmed that no commercial plants are yet operational in Britain. Is the Government’s plan to capture 20 million to 30 million tonnes of CO₂ by 2030 not therefore unachievable? Why are the Government subsidising this with £1 billion, at the expense of proven renewables?

Cement Industry: Carbon Dioxide

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There is too much agreement in the House today with the Liberal Democrats. Setting aside personal views, his overall point is right: of course we should look at adaptation and reuse if possible.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

What are the Government doing about adaptation—not just looking at it; are they doing anything?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

This is one of a number of different policies that we need to look at. Does the noble Baroness mean adaptation to climate change, or does she mean adaptation of existing buildings? Of course we are looking at both.

Drax Biomass Power Station

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, you have to admit that the “Panorama” programme had some interesting facts. In fact, a lot of that information comes from Canadian environmentalists who are on the spot and see the ancient forests being destroyed for those wood pellets. So why on earth does the Minister still persist in saying that we are jumping to conclusions when he is just burying his head in the sand?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As somebody famous once remarked, recollection of facts may vary. Forgive me if I do not necessarily take as absolute fact the statements of some Canadian environmentalists. Officials have looked into it. Ofgem is investigating whether the biomass is sustainable or not. Let us wait for the outcome of that investigation.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

3rd reading
Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Well, my Lords, if the Opposition are not enthusiastic about my noble friend’s amendment, I am.

Before I address the amendment, I shall deal with some of the points that Members have raised. First, on the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh about post-devolution rule, that is rule for the devolved Administrations. The reality is that they have not wanted to add anything to the dashboard, and of course we are in no position—and do not wish to force them—to do so. If they wish to add some of their rule to the dashboard then they can, but for now it is just rule made by Her Majesty’s Government. It of course contains UK government legislation that has been made post devolution—just not the rule made by the devolved Administrations.

To answer my noble friend Lady McIntosh’s point, the dashboard has no legal status as such; it is just a list of retained EU law.

Moving on to the main points about my noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendment, the Government have already reformed or revoked over 1,000 pieces of retained EU law, but that is not the limit of our ambition. Departments will continue to review the rule that is not already revoked, reformed or planned for revocation this year in order to identify further opportunities for reform, and we are committed to reducing the burdens on businesses and unlocking the economic growth that will flow from that. As a down payment on our commitment to deliver meaningful reform, the 10 May policy paper Smarter Regulation to Grow the Economy set out our intention to reform regulations and remove burdens on businesses.

We announced changes that will reduce disproportionate EU-derived reporting requirements and could save businesses around £1billion a year. This will just be the first in a series of announcements that the Government will be making in the coming months on reforming regulation in order to drive growth. In addition to the revocation schedule, the powers in the Bill will still enable us to revoke, replace or reform any outdated EU laws that remain on our statute book right through until 2026. This new approach will provide the space for longer-term and more ambitious reforms and the Government intend to do just that. It will also mean that fewer statutory instruments will be required to preserve EU laws that are deemed appropriate or necessary to maintain.

The Brexit Opportunities Unit, spearheaded by the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, has been pivotal in driving the development and delivery of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill and the wider associated retained EU law reform programme. These efforts are being supported by specialist legal expertise from outside government. Parliament will be able to easily monitor government progress on REUL reform, as we update the dashboard every quarter. That answers the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox: we will continue to update the dashboard.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Did I understand the Minister correctly? Has he just boasted that there will be less parliamentary scrutiny and that we can look it up online?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

You can look up progress online, but of course there will be parliamentary scrutiny. If we propose to make any changes to retained EU law using the powers in the Bill, they will come to Parliament in the normal process of the examination of secondary legislation.

The Brexit Opportunities Unit drove the aforementioned 10 May regulatory reform announcement, setting out a long-term plan to reform UK regulation over the coming months. Furthermore, we have committed to future announcements on how we will reform regulations to reduce the cost of living, deliver choice to consumers, establish trailblazing regulation to catalyse innovation and make the UK a science superpower, and remove obstacles to building world-class infrastructure.

However, it is crucial that Parliament and the public are able to hold the Government’s feet to the fire and ensure that our momentum continues with regard to the retained EU law reform programme. I am therefore delighted to support Amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled by my noble friend Lady Noakes, to which I have added my name. These amendments insert a new clause into the Bill requiring the Secretary of State to update the retained EU law dashboard and to report on the revocation and reform of retained EU law in periods up to 23 June 2026, at which point, of course, the main powers in the Bill will sunset, and the vast majority of retained EU law reform will have been completed. The reports will summarise the REUL dashboard data, provide an update on whether and how REUL on the dashboard has been revoked and reformed, and detail future plans for further revocation and reform.

I thank in particular my noble friend Lady Noakes for her collegiate engagement in preparing the amendments that she has tabled today. I also extend my thanks to my noble friends Lord Frost, Lord Jackson and Lady Lawlor for their valuable engagement on this matter. These amendments will hold the Government to account in providing the additional transparency both Parliament and the public need to scrutinise the Government’s progress and future plans on retained EU law reform. I therefore hope the House will join me in supporting these amendments.

Climate Change: Net Zero Strategy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the effectiveness of their Net Zero Strategy in meeting the goals under the Climate Change Act 2008.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the path outlined in the net zero strategy is the right one and we are delivering against it; for example, by announcing an unprecedented £20 billion investment in the early development of CCUS. The net zero growth plan reinforces this and the details set out in the carbon budget delivery plan sets out the package of proposals and policies that will enable us to meet those carbon budgets.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, which does not quite match the picture generally, I am afraid. I had intended to find one area where I thought I could suggest improvements, but actually the whole gamut of policies we have are failing. The Government are failing on energy, on housing, on transport—everything. So will the Minister please explain to his department just how bad it is at doing what it is meant to be doing? Perhaps it could bring in people such as the UK Climate Change Committee, or even our House of Lords Climate Change Committee, and actually take their advice. Failing that, will the Government please look at the Green Party manifesto, which has superb, sensible policies? They could really use them.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, as always, I am immensely grateful to the noble Baroness for her constructive advice, but I am afraid that, yet again, she is wrong. We are on track to meet our budgets; the evidence is there. We met the second and third carbon budgets; in fact, we exceeded our targets. We are on track to meet carbon budgets 4 and 5 and we recently announced our plans to meet carbon budget 6, which goes through to 2037—so all the policies are in train. I know the noble Baroness always wants to go further, and she is right to keep pressing us, but we are making progress. It is a long transition, but we are making faster progress than any other country in the G7. Our decarbonisation since 1990 is almost 50%, which is far in excess of every other G7 country, including the likes of Germany—where, of course, the Greens are in government.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I readily concede to the noble Baroness that many public services are under pressure, despite the record sums that we are spending on them. Of course, there are pressures on many public services; I entirely accept that. I do not know the details of the fire and rescue services consultation, but I know that the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, is very happy to continue to engage on that issue.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am so sick of that line about the record amounts being spent on our public services when a lot of that money goes to private companies, which employ nurses and doctors because the Government have allowed our public services to be so understaffed. Please stop misrepresenting the situation.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is getting off the debate. I am very happy to debate these points with her another time, but I think I will stick to the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I am following you.

[Lord Callanan]

It is the fact that we are spending record amounts on these services.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I appreciate that the noble Baroness has a different opinion on how the money is spent, and with whom. That is an unarguable fact. Perhaps we can save the debate for another occasion when we are not talking about this legislation.

Minimising what the minimum service level could be sets a significant legal restriction on the ability to achieve this balance and would likely result in the public continuing to suffer the disproportionate impacts that strikes can have. Let me again thank my noble friend Baroness Noakes for her contribution; she eloquently highlighted the potential perverse consequence of Amendment 13, and I totally agree with my noble friend.

The Government value employers, employees, trade unions and their members, and members of the public, who pay for many of these services, being able to participate in the process of setting minimum service levels through the consultations that are required by the legislation. This amendment would reduce the importance of that process, and in turn reduce the influence that these important groups have.

The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has left us, but it remains the case that any regulations that set minimum service levels in specified services will need to be compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, including Article 11. Should any regulations go beyond what is necessary to achieve the aims of setting minimum service levels, which resulted in a breach of the ECHR, a court would be able to grant such remedy as it considers just and appropriate, following a judicial review. Levels of staffing on non-strike days will no doubt be one of the factors that they may wish to consider. I hope that this reassures noble Lords that we will act in a way that is proportionate, and so that there are appropriate routes for stakeholders to challenge any MSLs that they believe have been set at too high a level.

Amendment 18 deals specifically with health services. It seeks to delay any implementation of minimum service levels in health services on strike days by first requiring the Government to establish appropriate staffing levels on non-strike days through primary legislation. As always, it was a pleasure for me and the noble Lord, Lord Markham, to meet yesterday with the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Kakkar, to discuss the amendment. I am grateful that both noble Lords took the time to explain their concerns. I bow to their superior knowledge of and service to the healthcare system, and for their contribution to the debate which, as ever, was constructive. Many of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, were discussed in the earlier grouping; I know that the noble Lord was listening so I will not repeat all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, but I am very happy to have further discussions with both noble Lords if they think there are outstanding issues that we have not sufficiently covered.

I would say that the responsibility for issuing work notices is with the employer, rather than the Secretary of State, precisely because individual employers know better what level of staffing is required to achieve minimum service levels. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, will be irritated but I also repeat and emphasise the point that there is no statutory duty in the Bill on an employer to issue a work notice.

As we discussed, however, strike action in some areas of health services can put lives at risk or cause serious harm to patients. In many cases, it has the potential for far-reaching consequences for members of the public who are not directly involved in the dispute. As the consultation for applying minimum service levels in the ambulance services sets out, the aim is to protect life and health, and it is only right that the implementation of minimum service levels, where required, is not unnecessarily delayed.

I will pick up the point on non-strike days. Responsibility for staffing levels, in the Government’s view, should remain with clinical and other leaders at a local level, responding to local needs and supported by guidelines and national and professional bodies and overseen and regulated in England by the Care Quality Commission. People have been unable to access work, healthcare and education and been left worrying whether an ambulance would even be there when they needed one. Businesses have also been severely impacted. It is the Government’s view that these amendments would only delay or disrupt our ability to act on the disproportionate impacts that strikes can have on the public. Therefore, I hope the noble Lord will be able to withdraw Amendment 13.

Business: Greenwashing

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness referred to looking at information online. I am sure she will be pleased to know that the CMA has launched a website to help consumers to identify and understand genuine environmental claims about the products and services that they are purchasing. It is designed to encourage them to ask themselves simple questions about whether they can believe the claims that manufacturers are making or not.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I was going to mention Amazon as a prime example of a company that uses greenwashing, but the Government are also very much a greenwashing organisation. They constantly laud their environmental principles, but then the Prime Minister, for example, hops into a private jet to go to Leeds instead of taking the train like the rest of us. Does the Minister agree that the Government need to correct some of their greenwashing?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There are things we could all do. The noble Baroness talks about the Prime Minister taking jets; she might want to talk to one of her Green council colleagues who, I believe, flew up to COP 26 in Glasgow. There are always improvements we can all make in our personal behaviour.

Prime Minister: Trade Unions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 19th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not overly familiar with the pay grades in the National Health Service—perhaps my noble friend Lord Markham could have answered that on the previous Question better than me.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Government have lost the public opinion battle? Nobody believes that the independent pay review is independent or the Government’s figures about how much it will cost per household. The Government frittered away billions on the PPE scandal, so people just do not believe them any more. Will the Minister accept that it is time to sit down and talk money with nurses, posties and railway workers?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is very easy for Opposition Members to say that we should grant this and that pay rise, but only a limited number can be funded. The noble Baroness talks about PPE; I seem to remember that, when we had these debates in the House at the time, the Opposition Benches were united in telling us that we needed to procure more of it as quickly as possible and not let other things get in the way of delivering essential PPE for our health service professionals. That is what we did.

Renewable Energy: Generation Licences

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to increase the number of renewable energy generation licences.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the acceleration in renewable deployment will be supported by the UK’s main renewable energy scheme, contracts for difference. The latest round delivered almost 11 gigawatts of new renewable projects, almost double that achieved in the previous round. The next CfD round will be brought forward to March 2023, and future rounds will run annually to further drive deployment of renewable power. The majority of CfD applicants are exempt from the requirement to hold a generation licence.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

So far, it has been much more difficult to get renewable licences. One thing that might help, as well as the Government’s investment, is if the Minister could go back to his government colleagues and ask them to stop taking party donations from fossil fuel companies. That might give renewables a fair chance.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that, which is totally unrelated to the Question she tabled. There have been almost 1,000 generation licences issued. It is a demand-driven process. All generators below 50 megawatts are exempt from having a licence in the first place.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

No.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

That is not true.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Let me finish, then the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will be able to come back.

I will start with Amendments 125 and 126. With Amendment 125, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, calls for an adequate level of information to be provided to consumers in the trial area concerning safety, long-run bill impacts and opting out of the trial. I agree that these are important issues. Support from local people will be crucial to the success of the trial, and gas transporters are already working closely with communities in the potential trial locations. In fact, the relevant Members of Parliament have already been in touch with me, and I already have meetings in my diary to talk with them and residents from the local areas about this.

Steps have already been taken to ensure that people have all the information required to make an informed choice about whether they wish to participate. Both gas transporters have opened demonstration centres in the two shortlisted local communities to raise awareness of what the trial would involve.

Clause 109 provides the Secretary of State with the power to require the gas transporter running the trial to take specific steps to make sure that consumers are properly informed about the trial. In meeting their responsibilities to inform consumers, we fully expect gas transporters to provide clear information about each of the important topics listed in the noble Lord’s amendment.

I turn to Amendment 126. The Government have been very clear that no consumer in the trial location should be financially disadvantaged due to taking part in the trial. Last year, the Government published a framework of consumer protections that will underpin the trial. Consumers in the trial location will not be expected to pay more for their heating than they would if they had remained on natural gas or to pay for the installation and maintenance of hydrogen-capable appliances.

The village trial will be paid for through a combination of government and Ofgem funding and contributions from the private sector. All gas consumers pay a very small amount towards Ofgem’s net-zero funding for network companies, which supports projects to decarbonise the energy sector; that includes this trial. All gas consumers will benefit from well-informed strategic decisions on how to decarbonise the way we heat our homes.

I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Lord that the important issues he has raised, about which I agree with him, are already effectively addressed by the Bill, and therefore that he feels able not to press his amendments.

I move on to Amendment 127 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. As I have said, local support will be crucial to the success of the trial. Gas transporters are already working closely with communities in the potential trial locations to develop an attractive offer for people who want to convert to hydrogen. However, we understand that not everyone will want or be able to connect to hydrogen, and the Government are clear that nobody will be forced to do so. The gas transporter running the trial will have to provide alternative heating solutions and appliances for people who do not take part in the trial. In May 2022, this requirement was clearly set out in a joint letter from BEIS and Ofgem to the gas transporters, alongside the other requirements that must be met before any funding is provided for the next stages of the trial. The gas transporters will need to demonstrate that they have a viable plan for providing alternatives to hydrogen. There is already an effective way to ensure that they provide alternatives to hydrogen, through the Government’s funding requirements.

We therefore do not believe that this amendment is necessary. I fully appreciate the noble Lord’s intention—which I share—to ensure that the trial is conducted properly, with alternative heating systems offered to people who do not take part. With that information, I hope he feels reassured that there are already steps in place to ensure this and will therefore feel able not to move the amendment.

I will say a few words about the stand part notices on Clauses 108 and 109. I know that the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Worthington, and my noble friend Lord Moylan, who is not here now, have registered their intention to vote against these clauses. I have already established that the overall intent of these clauses is to support a safe and effective trial for hydrogen heating.

Clause 108 allows the Secretary of State to designate a hydrogen grid conversion trial, ensuring that both this clause and Clause 109 are narrow in scope and would apply only for the purposes of such a trial. Importantly, the clause expands the duty to participants of the gas transporter running the trial to undertake the required work without charge. It also makes certain modifications to the Gas Act 1986 to build on existing provisions concerning powers of entry. This will ensure that the gas transporter running the trial has clear grounds to enter private properties to: carry out any essential works, including replacing appliances and installing and testing safety valves; undertake inspections and tests for the trial, such as safety checks; and safely disconnect the gas supply in a property.

It is important to emphasise that gas transporters already have powers of entry into properties through the Gas Act. We are merely extending these powers in a very limited way to conduct the necessary work to set up and deliver the trial. Gas transporters will only ever use these extended powers as a very last resort once all other attempts to contact property owners and reach an agreement are exhausted. The existing rules on powers of entry requiring a gas transporter to obtain a warrant from a magistrates’ court will continue to apply, of course. I reiterate once again that nobody will be forced to use hydrogen. I have already covered the plans for alternative arrangements in my comments on the amendment earlier.

Finally, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the majority of responses to the public consultation the department ran last year on facilitating a hydrogen village trial were broadly supportive of our proposals to change legislation in this way. I therefore urge that Clause 108 stands part of the Bill.

Clause 109 provides the Government with the powers to establish consumer protections for people taking part in this world-leading hydrogen village trial. It will do this by giving the Secretary of State two delegated powers to make regulations which require the gas transporter running the trial to follow specific processes to engage and inform consumers about the trial, and ensure that consumers are protected before, during and after the trial.

The department is of course working closely with the gas transporters as they develop their plans for consumer engagement and protection. It is worth saying that there is quite a bit of support in these communities for the trial. The council leaders in the areas concerned have expressed their support and one MP in particular is actively campaigning for their area to take part in the trial. Opinion is obviously mixed in both communities, but we want to make sure that it has the maximum level of support required. I have already highlighted the importance of consumer engagement and support in my earlier comments. Regulations made under this clause will ensure that people will have all the information required to make an informed choice about whether they wish to participate.

The second power in this clause, to introduce regulations for consumer protections, will work alongside existing protections such as the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the Gas (Standards of Performance) Regulations 2005. This recognises that it is a first-of-its-kind trial and will allow the Government to introduce additional protections for consumers in the trial area. These might include regulations to ensure that consumers are not financially disadvantaged by taking part in the trial.

I am sure that all noble Lords will agree that these provisions, which—as I said, again—were well received by stakeholders when we consulted on them last year, are crucial to ensure the fair treatment and protection of people in the selected trial area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am giving the noble Baroness that assurance now, and it will be in the regulations. I am happy to put it in writing, if she wishes. It is not in the Bill, because that is not the place for secondary regulations. The Bill provides the principles and the powers for the Secretary of State. Of course, when we make the regulations, there will be further potential for that to be discussed both in this House and in the House of Commons, and I am sure that it will be.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Minister mentioned having meetings. Has he actually met scientists, who know more about this than do people involved in financing the scheme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I have met a lot of people to discuss these schemes.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Scientists?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has her very passionate views, but there are lots of alternative views out there as well. We are saying that it needs to be properly looked at and studied on the basis of evidence—I know that the Greens are sometimes not big on evidence, but we believe that policy should be properly evidenced and studied. That is why we think that it is important that we should do these trials.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who spoke on this group. I understand many of the points that they made.

Let me first respond to the interesting points the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made. I honestly do not think there has been any radical change from when he was a Minister. When he was speaking, I was racking my brains trying to remember. I have been responsible for bringing a lot of Bills to this House, taking them through, developing them in three different departments, and I honestly cannot remember ever having a direct meeting with OPC to give it the so-called instructions the noble Lord referred to. Clearly in PBL meetings, which he will be familiar with, they attend and report to PBL. However, I suspect my experience has been very similar to his experience as a Minister, in that Ministers are involved in discussing policy intent with the department, officials and department lawyers. The instructions to parliamentary counsel are given by department lawyers, obviously acting on ministerial direction and steers about what we want to achieve through certain policies. I can only speak for myself, but I think the noble Lord is saying “a conspiracy too far” here. I genuinely do not think things have changed rapidly since his time.

I will respond briefly to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, who posed me two questions. She asked, “Will this Bill will help people with their bills?” Absolutely, that is the whole purpose of it. It is to provide a subsidy to people for their bills, albeit indirectly via the suppliers, because otherwise they would be incredibly high, as the noble Baroness knows. Secondly, let me address her further conspiracy theories about this somehow being a hidden subsidy to the oil and gas companies. The noble Baroness is completely wrong. The oil and gas companies are not in scope of this Bill at all and there are no subsidies involved.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am so sorry to interrupt, but I would like the Minister to withdraw the word “conspiracy”. I have legitimate and reasonable fears. It is not a conspiracy; it is actual fact.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is not a fact. The noble Baroness is absolutely wrong. Anyway, I am happy to take her reassurance on that. She was posing the question and I am giving her a direct answer. There are no subsidies involved for oil and gas companies in this Bill. They are not even in scope of the Bill. To answer her question directly, it is about direct support for people to help them with their electricity and gas bills.

Group 1 speaks to delegated powers in the Bill, including procedure, sun-setting use and scrutiny. I thank all those who spoke, those who tabled their thoughtful, well-intentioned amendments and the noble Lords, Lord Cunningham and Lord Rooker, who spoke on them. I also pay tribute, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, did, to the work of the DPRRC for its report on the Bill published last week. I have carefully considered and responded to it.

The first set of amendments would make certain regulations in the Bill subject to the affirmative procedure. I will go through all of them in turn. Amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 relate to the energy price guarantee schemes in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Committee will be aware that the schemes have been operational from the first of this month. I am happy to tell the Committee that the regulations in the Bill to designate the schemes will be extremely brief and will simply identify scheme documents. They will therefore be technical in nature and I deem them perfectly appropriate to be subject to the negative procedure.

Energy Supplies

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of (1) increased fracking and oil and gas extraction on energy costs for consumers, and (2) the time frame required for such supplies to come on stream in comparison with renewable energy capacity.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, measuring the impact of any specific gas project or energy costs for consumers is inherently complex. The UK is not isolated from international markets. Shale gas can also support energy security. Renewable energy sources have a wide range of development timeframes. The process of extracting onshore shale gas can be relatively rapid and scalable but will always depend on specific development factors.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his reply; I will not call it an Answer. I am sure that he is extremely embarrassed by his Government’s ditching of one of their election promises not to frack any more. I would like a yes or no answer to a question. If local people—and perhaps even the local council—are against fracking in their area, as for example is the Tory-led council in East Riding, will the Government accept that and allow no fracking in their area?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have said that local support for fracking projects is very important. It is one of the factors that we will take into account.

Prepayment Meters: Pricing

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The answer to the noble Lord’s question is the massive programme of support we have put in place, which amounts to about £60 billion of direct payment support. Had we not put these measures in place, the average unit cost would have been about £6,000 per year; now it is down to an average of £2,500 per year. I emphasise that that is not a maximum but an average of the unit costs of energy that are capped under the price guarantee.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that renewable energy is nine times cheaper than fossil fuel energy? If there were not an anti-science coalition in the Conservative Party—including previous Prime Minister Cameron, who said to cut the green “stuff”—bills would not be as high and we would not be in this mess now.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Happily, on this matter I can partly agree with the noble Baroness, which will shock her. Some renewables are considerably cheaper than gas- fired generation, although it varies—we are experiencing a price spike in gas at the moment. That is one of the reasons why we have in place the largest programme of offshore wind in Europe; we have the second-highest level in the world, and it is something we want to ramp up greatly, to 50 gigawatts by 2030, because at the moment it is the cheapest form of generation.

Small Modular Nuclear Reactors

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend’s point: Rolls-Royce is indeed an excellent company, which is why we are funding it to do this work.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I am so glad that the Minister mentioned safety because a recent study from Stanford University says that, overall, small modular designs are “inferior” to conventional reactors—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It is not my work; it is from a university. The study says that they are inferior with respect to radioactive waste generation, management requirements and disposable options. The researchers make the point that they should not be doing this research; the vendors should. Will the Government make sure that such research is done by vendors?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course they are doing that research. A vital part of the work and the financing model will be to make sure that all decommissioning costs are taken into account, which is one of the advantages of the SMR process: SMRs will, we hope, be easier and cheaper to decommission. But this is all part of the design process that we are going through, and it will be subject to the proper regulatory approvals. I obviously do not agree with the noble Baroness’s anti-nuclear stance, but it is nevertheless important fully to take into account the safety approvals process.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 13th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The figures that the noble Lord quotes are, of course, using different metrics. There is a big debate about which is the appropriate metric to use, but we can all accept, whatever metric we use, that this a very difficult time and people are suffering. The best route to end fuel poverty is through energy-efficiency measures, and that is why we are spending £6.6 billion this year in precisely targeting energy-efficiency measures—home improvements, retrofits—towards those in society on the lowest incomes, but of course we will need to do more.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Government’s windfall tax was clearly very good, because it helped householders pay their bills, but at the same time that money went into profits for the oil and gas companies. The Minister talks about sustainable homes, retrofit and so on, but actually the Government are not putting enough into this, and I wonder whether government policy is influenced by the fact that the Conservative Party gets donations from the oil and gas sector.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The windfall tax is taking profits off the oil and gas industry, as the noble Baroness refers to, but as I just mentioned in a previous answer—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It is not enough.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness says that this is not enough, but of course, we also need many of those companies to continue to invest both in North Sea production and in renewable production. If we are going to move to the totally renewable power system that I am sure the noble Baroness wants to see, as I do, we need tens of billions of pounds of investment, often from the same companies; you cannot spend the same pot of money twice. We are spending £6.6 billon this year on home efficiency measures, and there is a huge amount of work going on behind the scenes on retrofitting and home insulation measures, and through ECO, the local authority delivery scheme and the home upgrade grant. So, a lot of work is going on in this space.

Costs of Living

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the point that the right reverend Prelate is making, but, of course, those households are also subject to a price cap. The slightly higher price for prepayment meters reflects the fact that they cost energy suppliers more to serve.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain to me very simply why energy prices are going up when renewable energy prices are as cheap as they have ever been, and falling? Does that mean that the Government did not invest enough in renewable energy when, for example, the Greens started telling them that they should?

Energy Security Strategy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As usual, given his experience of the subject, my noble friend makes important points. On the subject of a debate, regrettably that is above my pay grade, but I will pass on his comments to the Chief Whip. Obviously, I stand ready to assist the House in any debates that it wishes to have. Regarding my noble friend’s comments about North Sea oil and gas, I say that he is completely correct. We are clear that oil and gas will continue to have a role as a transition fuel in the medium term. In carbon footprint and security terms, it makes eminent good sense to source these from the North Sea. That has to be preferable to importing them either from Russia or as LNG. That is why we will ensure a future for the North Sea, making use of our great reserves as we transition. We are holding a new licensing round in the autumn subject to the climate compatibility checkpoint.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I am going to ignore the quagmire of nuclear, which cannot come on stream for decades, and the quagmire of fracking, which is a ridiculously expensive and disruptive process, and all the other ridiculous ideas about more oilfields in the North Sea. I will talk specifically about biomass companies like Drax, which in fact produce more carbon than burning fossil fuels, yet the Government choose to give them renewable subsidies. Will the Minister meet me and one or two scientists who can explain the whole process to him, and possibly take that back to his department?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry that the noble Baroness has ignored the quagmire, as she puts it, of some very important subjects. I am sure we will want to debate them in future. She raised this matter with me yesterday. In principle, I understand the point she is making, but I point her to the website of Ofgem, which does the appropriate sustainability checks on the biomass used in Drax. It is from waste sources, and it is renewable. The Greens are shaking their heads, but I am afraid there is a case for it. It is sustainable and renewable, which is why it qualifies, but it is subject to strict sustainability criteria. They are checked and published.

International Energy Agency Report

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The House has debated this subject on many occasions, and we will continue to be led by the science. My noble friend will be aware that the Secretary of State recently commissioned the British Geological Survey to have another look at the scientific evidence for fracking, but we cannot ignore the problems that were caused by the Cuadrilla test wells. If those objections can be overcome and we can gain the support of local communities, there is no reason why we cannot do it, but let us not think that this will be a short-term answer to our problems.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, speaking of responsible decisions, the last three words of the title of the International Energy Agency’s report are “help the planet”, yet the Government are currently subsidising polluting companies—for example, Drax—to the cost of £2 million a day. Will the Minister take that back to his department and explain that biofuel companies such as Drax do not produce renewable energy?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

To respond to that point would take longer than I have for this answer, but I disagree with the noble Baroness—although I have great respect for her—that biomass is not renewable. This has been studied at great length, and supporting Drax and other power stations to move to renewable sources of power with waste wood is an environmentally responsible thing to do, in our view. The energy pathway for that is audited.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group are technical amendments that would update the Bill to permit regulations made on gross cash equivalent to apply to all parts of the Bill to which they are relevant. These amendments have the same basic purpose so I will take them together.

Subsidies can come in many different forms, from cash grants to discounted contributions in kind. It is important to establish a common methodology for calculating the value of the latter kind of subsidy as this will avoid public authorities taking different, and difficult to compare, approaches to this issue. Clause 82 enables the Secretary of State to make provisions by regulations, which will be subject to the negative procedure, for how the gross cash amount and the gross cash equivalent amount are to be determined for four different clauses that are listed in the Bill. These regulations will set out a methodology for calculating the value of any subsidy or scheme for use by public authorities. This will avoid public authorities using to calculate gross cash equivalent a range of methodologies that may not be wholly or easily comparable with each other.

Clauses 10 and 11 concern the creation of subsidy schemes and streamlined subsidy schemes, and enable the Secretary of State to make regulations defining the meaning of subsidies or subsidy schemes of interest or of particular interest. The amendment to Clause 82 would ensure that regulations made under it, which make provisions about how the gross cash amount and the gross cash equivalent are to be determined, are applicable to all regulations and schemes made under the terms of the Bill.

The other amendments to Clauses 10 and 11 would enable the values of subsidies of interest or of particular interest, subsidy schemes and streamlined subsidy schemes to be defined by reference to the gross cash amount or gross cash equivalent amount of the subsidy or scheme. I hope noble Lords will agree that these are minor and technical amendments that will avoid any need for complex cross-referencing in the regulations and reduce any confusion for public authorities; I therefore ask that they be accepted. I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I would like to raise a small, technical point; I think that the Minister skimmed over it in the debate on Amendment 33 in my name, possibly because I did not explain it properly. Subsidies for fossil fuels should be calculated using the IMF definition of financial assistance for fuel consumption multiplied by the difference between existing and efficient prices. In his reply, the Minister explained that he would not want to ban subsidies for fossils fuels, but he did not say anything about the merits of the IMF definition of fossil fuel subsidies. This is an important issue because it factors in the negative impacts of environmental and social costs, which are otherwise ignored. When we look at fossil fuel subsidies holistically, we realise just how much more expensive fossil fuels are than renewables. I do not expect an answer today, but it would be good to have an answer in writing whenever possible because the Minister did not mention it.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That issue is not covered by these amendments, but I will come back to the noble Baroness in writing.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed—[Interruption.] I will let the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, come in as well.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

We may have had this debate many times but the fact is that the Government do not listen. For example, the Government could have already reduced by a huge margin our reliance on fossil fuels and gas by helping people insulate their homes. They have given little bits here and little bits there, but they have not invested heavily. They could do more but they refuse to do so. I do not understand why. So, we are going to continue having these debates until the Government actually fulfil some of the promises they have made.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We will continue to have these debates: I just point the noble Baroness to the fact that we are spending £3.4 billion over the next few years on precisely the schemes that she mentions. By all means, argue that we should be spending even more, but it is just not true to say that we are not spending anything at all. We will continue to have these debates.

Going back to the points by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, I think we are in danger of violently agreeing here. Of course, there has to be a transition and we have to reduce our reliance over time, but my point is and will remain that in the meantime, we still require unabated gas-fired generation unless she is proposing to turn the lights out, which I know she is not. Therefore, we are effectively agreeing. We could have a long and detailed debate about the scale of the transition and how we should progress the transition, but in essence we are saying the same things.

National Living Wage

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 17th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, I am happy to pay credit to the Labour Government of the time for introducing the national minimum wage and I am happy to take credit for the biggest increases in the national minimum wage that we, as a Conservative Government and a Conservative-led Government, have implemented since we came to power. As I said, these are difficult issues. We all want to see it increasing; that is why we have the independent Low Pay Commission to provide independent advice to the Government on what is affordable for business. We are working towards the manifesto commitment to increase the level to two-thirds of national median pay.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to see this rise in the national living wage, but is the Minister aware that if one works a 35-hour week at £9.50 an hour, that makes a weekly total of £332.50? If it is the national living wage, has anybody in the Government actually tried living on it for a week?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness feels passionately about this and, as I said in response to earlier questions, I think the whole House is united in wanting to see increases in the minimum wage and the living wage as much as possible. However, it benefits nobody if it drives people into unemployment and further poverty. We want to see increases in the national minimum wage, but we want to see them on a sustainable basis.

Net-zero Test for New Policies

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are indeed committed to publishing this, exactly as I said, and we are making a considerable commitment towards meeting our targets. We have the most ambitious programme of emissions reductions in the whole of the G7. Let me give an example of how difficult these areas are. It is easy to say that, yes, we must embed net zero in all our policies, but the other place is currently having a debate brought forward by the noble Lord’s party on removing VAT from domestic fuel. Everybody can see why that might be important at the moment but, arguably, such a test would fail the commitment on net zero, since most fuel is still produced by carbon-intensive methods. These are difficult policy areas; we have to balance the overarching aim of net zero with other commitments on fuel poverty, et cetera.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Anyone watching the Government can see that there is no coherence and that they do not understand net zero. That is why it is so important to take up this idea. Any Government who understood net zero would not have made a deal with the Australian Government for lamb and similar things. That is not a net-zero deal. At the same time, they are condemning British farming to sometimes going out of business. Does the Minister agree that the Government have to step up a bit and be a little more ambitious on net zero?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the point that the noble Baroness is making—I know that she is very passionate on this subject, and we have debated it many times—but we have the most ambitious net-zero goals of all of the G7. The noble Baroness puts her head in her hands, but that is true. Of course, you could always argue that we should go further or faster, but that would be expensive and would affect our competitiveness. At the end of the day, the UK is responsible for 1% of worldwide emissions. We need to make sure that we go forward in a co-ordinated manner with other countries across the world and approach this problem together.

Construction Sector: Roadmap to Zero Retentions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 15th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There are a lot of different factors to take into consideration. This is a complicated area with widely differing views across the sector. In considering the abolition of this contractual practice, there would need to be the development of alternative surety products for the whole industry. That could mean the adaption of existing products, such as performance bonds, or the introduction of new products. It may also involve a range of different products. It is a complicated area, but we continue to take forward work with the Construction Leadership Council.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I regret that I was not able to come to the briefing that the Minister gave. It strikes me that this distorts all the figures that come out of the building industry, because even smaller and very trustworthy builders start to pack their quotes in case of retentions. When you look at this as part of the economy, the practice of retentions distorts the whole picture. Getting rid of retentions would allow the numbers to be better and clearer.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that if we could achieve that, it would be a great result. One of the workstreams that the Construction Leadership Council is taking forward, as I mentioned in my Answer, is based on the Get It Right Initiative, which would see firms with a demonstrable trade record of good performance and quality products not having retentions levied on them. In my view, that is a hopeful development.

Drax Wood Pellets

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Where the evidence is published, I will certainly make sure that the noble Lord receives a copy of it, but I think he is wrong on this. As I said, these are not primary trees but trees that are being harvested anyway; these are branches and other offcuts from the forestry process. It is sustainably managed and the criteria are checked, including for biodiversity.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Do the Government understand that Drax has been taken to court twice this year for air pollution offences and reported to the OECD for misleading and, frankly, untrue statements about its environmental impacts? Does the Minister think the Government are being a bit naive in not doing due diligence with somebody who actually knows what they are talking about from the green point of view?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I would challenge the noble Baroness’s statement that some of the green groups know what they are talking about, but we make sure that the process is independently audited and all of the biomass is—I repeat—sustainably produced.

Net-zero Emissions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 7th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct about the target that we have set. I mentioned the boiler upgrade scheme starting next year. We also have changes to the building regulations, as referred to in earlier questions, which will kick in in 2025, making it virtually impossible to install fossil-fuel heating systems. That will produce a large increase in heat pump installations, as will the other schemes that we have talked about; low-carbon heating can be installed under all of them.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the campaign group Insulate Britain, which has annoyed people so badly, was asking for a national programme to ensure that homes are insulated to be low energy by 2030. The Government are nowhere near on track to do that, but it is a sensible request; it would ensure that not only would millions of people use less energy, they would be able to pay for what they use. Why not do it?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Baroness that Insulate Britain has managed to annoy everybody. I cannot remember a campaign in this country that has been less effective at mobilising public support behind an important issue. We need to take people with us on this; irritating them, disturbing their daily lives and stopping them going about their lawful business is really not the way to do it. I hope that the noble Baroness will not continue to support these ridiculous, irresponsible campaigns. Having said that, we are spending £3.9 billion over the next few years to insulate homes, upgrade their performance and install low-carbon heating systems. We are getting on with the job quietly and successfully.

Homes: Environmental Standards

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There are a number of financial packages that private landlords letting to low-income tenants can take advantage of; I referred to some of the schemes earlier. Private sector landlords are entitled to take advantage of them, but the noble Lord is right and points to one of the dilemmas in the private rented sector, which is that the investment is made by landlords but the benefit is gained by tenants through lower fuel bills.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I hear the optimism and the claims, but, sadly, these are not carried through into government action and the Government know that full well. The Public Accounts Committee reported yesterday that the Government’s

“Green Homes Grant … Scheme … underperformed badly … and risks damaging … future efforts”

to deliver net zero. It also said that it is “not convinced” that BEIS has

“fully acknowledged the scale of its failures with this scheme.”

If you do not understand how or how badly you have failed, how will you ever deliver this green stuff that you clearly do not understand?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry the noble Baroness thinks we do not understand this “green stuff”—we have her advice to rely on, constantly, and she tells us all about it. To be serious, she is of course right that the National Audit Office acknowledged that the Green Homes Grant scheme did not deliver at the pace we would have expected. Nevertheless, we did deliver some 80,000 vouchers and spent some £300 million on precisely the kind of measures that I know the noble Baroness would support. We have certainly learned lessons from the Green Homes Grant and are taking those forward in future grant schemes, such as the boiler upgrade scheme to install more heat pumps, which I am sure the noble Baroness will also welcome.

Net-zero Emissions Target: Fossil Fuel Extraction Projects

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is indeed compatible with our climate change goals. The proposed development of the Cambo oil field, located to the west of Shetland, is covered by licences originally awarded in 2001 and 2004 by the noble Baroness’s Government, and no decision has yet been made. Proposals for the development of oil and gas fields under existing licences—such as Cambo—are subject to extensive scrutiny by the regulators. That scrutiny includes a full environmental impact assessment and a public consultation. No final decision has yet been made.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Our own dear Prime Minister, when asked about the coal mine in Cumbria, said that he was not in favour but that it was not his decision; it was for due process. Does our Prime Minister not understand how democracy and government work? He could amend the National Planning Policy Framework to ban new coal. Will the Minister take this idea to the Prime Minister so that we can stop at least one more fossil fuel extraction process?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am of course delighted to hear that the Prime Minister is dear to the noble Baroness. But, as I think she is aware, no decision has yet been taken on the proposed Cumbrian coal mine. The public inquiry began on 7 September. The formal part of the inquiry has now concluded. The planning inspector will write up his report by the end of the year and submit it to the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. It is now part of a quasi-judicial process, so the noble Baroness will understand that I cannot commit the Government to any action.

Climate Change: Global Temperatures

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, published on 9 August; and what policy areas they intend to reassess in response to the finding that global temperatures are rising faster and will have worse consequences than previously predicted.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

The IPCC report reaffirms the importance of net zero. On 19 October, we launched the net-zero strategy, supporting up to 440,000 jobs and leveraging up to £90 billion in private investment by 2030. Our strategy sets out clear policies and proposals for keeping us on track for our coming carbon budgets and our ambitious NDC.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

How on earth does that and the Government’s net-zero plan fit with the fact that the Chancellor has just given us a Budget that is so carbon intensive that we should all just give up everything that we are bothering to do? He has reduced the duty on domestic flights, which are the most carbon-intensive form of travel, and he has frozen the fuel-duty escalator for the 12th year. This Treasury does not understand the climate emergency, and the noble Lord, who hears us all here, has to take that back.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course I always take the noble Baroness’s comments back to the department for discussion, as she well knows. I think that she is being a little unfair with her comments and I know that she would not want to be. The Chancellor has also announced £3.8 billion-worth of funding for domestic low-carbon heat installation systems, social housing decarbonisation and public sector decarbonisation—we talked about that in our statement a few days ago. It is important to bear in mind that many communities in the UK—people who live on remote islands et cetera—rely on their air services. Domestic aviation accounts for less than 1% of UK emissions. I also remind the noble Baroness that the Chancellor recently announced considerable funding—something like £180 million—for sustainable aviation fuel.

Energy Prices: Electricity Bills

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I outlined earlier the support mechanism that we already have in place: the warm home discount, the winter fuel payment, cold weather payments and an additional £500 million household support fund, which has been available to councils to help the most in need over the winter.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Scottish Parliament, through the Green Party Minister Patrick Harvie—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It has committed £1.8 billion to home energy efficiency measures. Given that this Government want to be world leading and they have a bit of a gap to fill, will they commit a proportionate amount—bearing in mind that there are 10 times more homes in England—of £18 billion?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I have not had a chance to meet the noble Baroness’s colleague yet. I was supposed to meet him a couple of weeks ago, but the meeting was cancelled. I look forward to discussing these important matters with him. As the noble Baroness will be aware, we are already spending considerable sums on home insulation and heating upgrade measures—some £1.3 billion over the last year. Of course, I cannot predict what might happen in the Chancellor’s spending review, but we are already investing considerably in home insulation measures.

Climate Change

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord invites me to indulge in a long debate about the validity or otherwise of the various reports and the IPCC report. Perhaps we could discuss it separately outside. However, the IPCC report was a major piece of work taking on board many of the assessments from world-leading scientists, and we would do well to take it seriously.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, since 2007, the IPCC has rapidly increased its assessment of potential sea level rises. When will the planning process reflect the fact that siting nuclear power stations in coastal areas is not a viable option?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a valid point, because the effects of climate change include rising sea levels, but they are consolidated, considered and adapted throughout the lifetime of nuclear power stations. As the noble Baroness is of course aware, we have a robust regulatory framework. Planning permissions and environmental permit requirements mean that no site can be built or developed unless all these factors are taken fully into account.

Steel Sector

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

For HS2, our 2021 steel procurement pipeline estimates that 1.95 million metric tonnes of steel are required in phases 1 and 2. So far, all reported structural steel used has been UK-produced.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

In view of the climate emergency that we are all facing, the Swedish Government have pushed forward on their aims to be fossil fuel-free by 2024, using the hydrogen technology that somebody has just mentioned. How many years behind are the British Government?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that the noble Baroness feels passionately about these matters, and we share her enthusiasm for decarbonising the industrial sectors as quickly as possible. She will know that decarbonising UK industry is a core part of the Government’s plan for a green industrial revolution, which I am sure she will support. The industrial decarbonisation strategy commits the Government to work with the steel council on the implications of the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation for UK-based steel makers to be carbon neutral by 2035.

Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port and Battery Manufacturing Strategy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I outlined in previous answers the support that we are giving; we are looking closely at all these matters. I am sure that it is eminently possible to ensure that a circular economy applies to electric vehicles as much as it applies to many other parts of the economy.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Are the Government aware that electric vehicles can only ever be a tiny part of reducing our carbon emissions—and that it would be more effective to stop building new roads and not open new coal mines? If they are worried about jobs, the Government should be starting up thousands of schemes to train people to retrofit insulation in houses and install clean heating systems. Are the Government thinking about this?

Construction Industry: Retention Payments

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I understand the attraction of looking for consensus among all the players, but it is obvious that the current system is unjust and has a particular impact on smaller businesses, which need the money desperately. Why do the Government not just take a lead and govern as they should?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

At the risk of repeating myself, it would require primary legislation and there is pressure on the legislative timetable. There are a number of different options to take this forward. We are committed to ending the practice of late payment and we will work with industry to try to find a solution to this problem.

Carbon-neutral Homes

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are constantly improving the number of homes: 34% of homes are now above EPC band C, which is up from 9% in 2009. Our various funding schemes. such as the ECO scheme and the green homes grant scheme, will all contribute towards raising those numbers.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister is well aware that, since 2017, 1 million homes have been built that will need retrofitting. Yesterday, the MCS Charitable Foundation released its Energising Advice Report. It recommends having a publicly funded one-stop shop for advice to homeowners on how to retrofit their homes—something to make it easy for them. Is that sort of advice something the Government might accept?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for drawing my attention to the report, but we already have a digitally led advice service, Simple Energy Advice, which provides tailored advice to homeowners and landlords on energy performance improvements that they can make to their homes. It also signposts further funding and directs them to suitably qualified tradespeople

State Aid (Revocations and Amendments) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Minister did not answer any of my questions, which I presume is because he felt they were out of order. At the same time, I did ask how we were going to make sure that public authorities understand the impacts of this statutory instrument. He did not answer that.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I answered many questions. It is not a matter of being in order; it is whether questions were relevant to this particular debate. I think I said in my reply that of course we intend to publish guidance for local authorities, the devolved Administrations and others active in this field before the end of the year, but the noble Baroness will understand that this is still very much a live subject in the EU negotiations. When we have a complete picture of how the regime will operate in the UK, any commitments that we may wish to enter into as part of those negotiations will be legislated for in the future relationship Bill, but we will ensure that guidance is issued before the end of the year.

COP 26: Sponsors

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We will of course conduct due diligence on all potential sponsors and will ensure compliance with rigorous government standards on all matters.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, made an interesting point that companies ought to be truly climate credible. Which climate-credible people in the Government will make the decision on which companies are climate credible?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As in all these matters, the ultimate decisions will rest with Ministers. We will judge companies closely against the criteria that we have already published, and I am sure that the noble Baroness will want to hold me to account for those decisions.

Oil and Gas Industry

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con) [V]]

The noble Lord is right. Carbon capture and storage will be a key part of our future energy requirements. The Chancellor announced the new carbon capture and storage infrastructure fund of at least £800 million. We are committed to deploying carbon capture and storage in at least two industrial clusters over the next decade.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, parts of our world are burning; parts of it are melting. We are already committed to a one degree rise in temperature globally. The Government are not feeling the urgency of this. We have to stop fossil fuel burning now. It is no good talking about transitioning and having little dribs and drabs of plans. The Government need a vision. If I can help with that, I would be delighted.

[Lord Callanan (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness; I admire her commitment to these causes. In essence, we agree, albeit probably not on the scale she requires. The UK was the first major world economy to legislate for net zero. We were one of the first countries to commit to ending unabated coal generation and we intend to do that by 2024. I hope that the noble Baroness will also recognise that the oil and gas sector has a key role to play in supporting the transition through its skills, infrastructure and investment. As we move to a low-carbon economy, oil and gas will play an increasingly small role, but we need to utilise the skills that exist in the industry.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Again, we debated these matters extensively during the passage of the legislation. We are satisfied that monitors are appropriately regulated and that their independence is guaranteed. However, we will keep all these matters under review.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, the Government acted quickly in the pandemic in giving grants and loans to some small businesses. However, those businesses are now coming out of the furlough period, having to pay rent and staff, and might have exhausted their reserves. Have Her Majesty’s Government thought about creating an equity fund to help them survive?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. We are aware of proposals for equity investment. For some companies, further debt might not be the right answer. As always, the private sector should be the first port of call, but we will keep the policy under review and will rigorously test any proposals for value for money.

Emissions: Housing

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan [V]]

We do not necessarily need to replace every boiler. There are a number of alternative courses of action. One would be to investigate the use of hydrogen as an alternative. Already we have pilot programmes that will enable boilers to be quickly and easily upgraded to work on hydrogen.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

It is obviously important to upgrade existing stock, but some local authorities have set up carbon offsetting schemes which allow carbon-intensive building developments to go ahead with building inadequate housing for the future. Will the Government close this loophole?

[Lord Callanan [V]]

I am happy to have further discussions with the noble Baroness to see exactly what that loophole is, but we remain committed to working with local authorities to take this agenda forward.

Green Economy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Yes, I agree with my noble friend; hydrogen can of course provide a potential solution to that. I heard only the other day about investments that we are making with companies such as Worcester Bosch and Baxi to develop new boilers that are able to work on natural gas and can be easily converted with only one hour of service engineering to work on hydrogen in the future. Nevertheless, hydrogen is, at the moment, given existing technology, expensive and difficult to produce.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Suttie and Lady Jenkin, asked what we are doing about plastic waste. I am pleased to tell them that the UK is a world leader in tackling plastics and that we have committed to work towards all plastic packaging placed on the market being recyclable, reusable or compostable by 2025, and to eliminate avoidable plastic waste by 2042. The Government’s landmark resources and waste strategy sets out our plans to eliminate avoidable plastic waste over the lifetime of the 25-year plan.

I hesitate to referee the debate between the noble Baronesses, Lady Jenkin and Lady Jones, on Extinction Rebellion. I am sorry to tell the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that I am very much on the side of noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, on this. I witnessed at first hand the huge piles of disposable plastic waste that Extinction Rebellion left behind after its demonstrations. Before lecturing the rest of us on what we should be doing, it should act to put its own house in order first.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Does the Minister accept that had they had time to clear away, they would have done so? I visited the site and they had recycling systems set up and they were extremely careful about rubbish. If they had had time, they would have removed it.

[Lord Callanan]

I thought that might prompt an intervention. No, I do not accept that. Even on the sites they vacated voluntarily, they still left behind piles of rubbish, which cost the local authority tens of thousands of pounds to remove. They are, of course, quite entitled, as everybody is, to demonstrate and make their point, but they are not entitled to bring the whole of London to a standstill while they are doing it.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Does the Minister understand that we are in a climate emergency? This is bigger than Covid-19, bigger than any other emergency we have ever faced. Those people have actually put climate change on to the agenda here in the House in debates I have been part of. I have not even mentioned climate change: everybody else has mentioned it, so they have actually performed an incredibly important role within our society.

[Lord Callanan]

I am sorry, but I just do not agree with the noble Baroness. Climate change was on the agenda well before Extinction Rebellion decided to get involved in the subject. It has been a subject of cross-party agreement. It is not just something for this Government; Governments of the party opposite and the coalition Government were also on the ball with this, and legislation was put in place with cross-party agreement. Nobody doubts the scale of the problem; they do not need to tell us it is a problem; what we need are practical solutions that are deliverable in the normal political landscape. That is what we are working towards and what we are interested in giving contributions for, and, frankly, camping out in London for weeks on end does not change the fact that we need practical, deliverable solutions.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

My Lords—

[Lord Callanan]

I am happy to continue this debate with the noble Baroness, but time is getting on. We will return to the subject. I should not have raised it in the first place.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

My Lords—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

He is being very provoking, you must admit.

[Lord Callanan]

It is fine: it is my fault for raising it. I should not have got involved in the debate, but I am happy to talk to the noble Baroness, for whom I have the greatest admiration, as she knows. I am sure that we will discuss it on plenty of other occasions.

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, talked about the 2050 target and asked why Finland has a net-zero target of 2035 when ours is 2050. Our independent advisers, the Committee on Climate Change, made it clear in its report that it does not currently consider that it is credible for the UK to reach net-zero emissions earlier than 2050, and we have legislated in line with that advice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, asked about plastic waste exports. We are committed to banning plastic waste exports to non-OECD countries and the Environment Bill includes a power to enable us to deliver this commitment. We will consult this year on the date by which this will achieved.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, raised the energy company obligation—we have discussed this subject with her before. I know that we have a different opinion on it, but we believe that energy efficiency will be key to reach net zero and we agree that the transition has to be fair. The energy company obligation is a key policy that, since 2013, has delivered more than 2.5 million measures in more than 2 million homes. This scheme is now entirely focused on low-income, vulnerable and fuel-poor households and funded to the tune of something like £640 million a year until 2022. I know that we have a different view about how it should be funded, but it is, in my view, a successful scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Marland, talked about international climate finance. Since 2011, our international climate finance has helped 57 million people to cope with the effects of climate change, while reducing or avoiding 16 million tonnes of emissions.

I am sorry that I am out of time; I had a number of other points to refer to. If noble Lords will permit me, I will respond to them in writing—apart from an intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Browne.

Housing Insulation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Lord for his good wishes. It is nice to answer questions on something other than EU withdrawal for a change. I take on board the noble Lord’s concerns. He makes a very good point. As I said, we will be announcing further policies in this field in the Budget and in the forthcoming energy White Paper. He will understand that I cannot predict what might be announced at those times.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is fantastic to hear that the Government will have another policy. I welcome the noble Lord to his new post—I am sure that we will confront each other about this quite a lot. It is not just about having policies but having the funding in place. Will we see some funding for this in the Budget?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Baroness for her best wishes. I am sure that confronting is not the right word. Working together for the common goal would be more appropriate—you have to start out optimistically. There were funding commitments in the Conservative manifesto. As I said earlier, we will set out the details of that funding in the Budget and the energy White Paper.