Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Worthington Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Worthington]

117: Clause 98, page 90, line 32, leave out “may by regulations” and insert “must by regulations, within 12 months of this Act being passed,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to make regulations establishing a low-carbon heat scheme within 12 months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent.

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[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I too am glad to be back debating energy. As has been noted, we find ourselves in a completely different sent of extreme weather events today, but I am glad that we have all been able to make it here to resume this important discussion.

Since we last met, emergency legislation has gone through on some of the issues that we raised in Committee and at Second Reading on the need for a short-term response to the energy crisis bearing down upon us. The Bill is very much about long-term measures, so it is right and proper that the Government supplemented that legislation with faster-paced legislation. However, there were many provisions in that rather hurried legislation, which I know has caused concerns in the market, so the Government have to work hard to deliver the right signals to investors and to businesses around the country that the transition will be orderly and consistent and can encourage investment across the piece. I am sure we will come back to debating the net effect of all the Government’s measures on energy in later clauses.

Amendment 117 relates to the setting up of a low-carbon heat scheme. Specifically, the amendment would change the provision that the Secretary of State “may” by regulations make provision for the scheme to “must” and apply urgency to the challenge of bringing forward those regulations by requiring that they are passed within 12 months of the Bill being enacted.

The reasons are self-evident. If we are to solve the problem of our reliance on volatile fossil fuels, which are also contributing to air-quality problems and climate change, we need to get on with the electrification of heat. The scheme would move us along in that direction and give investors confidence that there is a market that they can plan for and invest in. We therefore urge the Minister to reassure us that the regulations will be passed with all due haste and brought in in good time, and I look forward to hearing from him on the timetable within which we might see the regulations.

Amendment 118 seeks to add to the Bill statutory requirements for and deadlines by which we will stop selling the gas-based boilers currently going into properties. I support that in principle, although I imagine that there will be concerns about the specificity going into primary legislation. However, it is essential that we give clarity to the manufacturers of existing boilers that the Government are serious about ending their current dominance.

I receive, as I am sure everyone does, a lot of correspondence about hydrogen-ready boilers. That needs to be unpacked. I do not know what can be done to prevent the mis-selling of that concept, but it is borderline mis-selling because it is very unclear whether hydrogen-ready boilers are even possible. I therefore think it has more to do with the manufacturers preserving the status quo than with their genuinely seeking to be involved in the transition. Lots of technical advisers tell me that simply saying that something is hydrogen-ready is not sufficient and that it is very difficult and complex to achieve, so I have some sympathy with Amendment 118.

Amendment 121 seeks to except hydrogen if it is compliant with the low-carbon hydrogen standard. In previous debates I have made it clear that I do not deem the low-carbon hydrogen standard sufficient. It is a number that has been put out there, but I do not think it takes into account all the effects of hydrogen on the climate specifically. Hydrogen is a greenhouse gas, as we have talked about previously. The global warming potential of hydrogen needs to be taken sufficiently into account when we consider a low-carbon hydrogen standard, and I do not think it has been, so I am a little nervous about us putting the provision in as it stands because I do not consider that standard tight enough.

The Government’s amendments on opening up the opportunity for the regulations to apply to manufacturers seem entirely sensible. We have to decide the right point at which regulation would be most efficient to drive this. The manufacturers may well be the right place for this, or they may not, but having that option seems correct to me.

In Amendment 122, the Opposition Benches seek to include specificity in relation to the heat pump market. Again, I can see the logic of that. I am sure it is probing amendment, more than anything else, to get clarity on the scale of the market that we expect. I doubt that it could survive in primary legislation, but I am sure it is there to try to elicit positive statements so that the heat pump sector can move in this regard.

Amendment 119 concerns cases where it is not possible to fit heat pumps. It is a difficult amendment to legislate on. Very few of the properties where a large enough heat pump or geothermal source can be installed cannot electrify heat. Therefore, I believe that the amendment is not necessary.

I very much look forward to hearing the response to the group. As I have said, it is of primary importance to get moving, and to get investors moving, so that we can start to have a manufacturing sector that is enabled by those regulations as quickly as possible. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, 95% of UK homes are centrally heated and most CO₂ emissions come from burning fossil fuels, contributing to about 30% of the UK’s total greenhouse emissions, about half of which is from heating our domestic properties. Will gas boilers be banned in 2025? As part of the future homes standard, new homes will be able to install only energy-efficient heating systems and will produce 31% lower emissions compared to the current levels. The standard will come into effect in 2025. The International Energy Agency has also stressed that no new gas boilers should be sold after 2025. The UK’s official climate advisers recommend that all gas boilers should be banned by 2033 to end the UK’s further contribution to climate change. That is the background to the amendments being moved.

We support Amendment 117 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, which adds a bit of the oomph by replacing “may” with “must” in relation to the low-carbon heat scheme. Amendment 119, in my name, would ensure that the Secretary of State, in making a low-carbon heat scheme, must

“provide a plan for low-carbon heating in homes where it is uneconomic or unfeasible to have a heat pump (large, rural, off-grid homes etc.).”

Amendment 121 seeks to allow

“heating appliances that use hydrogen produced to the Low Carbon Hydrogen Standard (blue hydrogen) to be included in low-carbon heat schemes.”

I note what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said about hydrogen in general, but if we are going to have hydrogen, let us have blue hydrogen at this stage.

Amendment 122 states:

“Sub-paragraph (i) seeks to include the Government’s own figures for heat pumps in the Bill. Sub-paragraph (ii) seeks to include the number of heat pumps in the latest figures on recommendations from the CCC. And sub-paragraph (iii) seeks to oblige manufacturers producing gas boilers to turn to minimum 25% production of heat pumps by 2028 to facilitate the clean heat transition.”


Government Amendment 123

“makes it clear that a low-carbon heat target set by virtue of clause 100(1)(c) or (d) may be set, in the case of a manufacturer, by reference to heating appliances of the manufacturer that are supplied or installed, whether by the manufacturer or someone else.”

Government Amendment 124 simply corrects a drafting error.

Amendments 117, 119 and 121 relate to Clause 98 in Chapter 1, on low-carbon heat schemes, of Part 3, on new technology. Clause 98 provides the Secretary of State with powers to set up a regulatory scheme through secondary legislation to encourage the sale and installation of low-carbon heating technologies, such as electric heat pumps. Clause 98(3)(b) allows for this to include, for instance, hybrid heat pump systems that involve both a heat pump and a fossil fuel boiler. This is welcome, but our primary concerns are when and how the powers will be used. Amendment 117, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, requires the scheme to be set up within 12 months of the Bill becoming law, and we agree with that.

Amendment 119 seeks to ensure that the Government are aware that there are a number of homes where heat pumps are not the solution, and to address filling this large gap. There is one fundamental flaw with this clause that Amendment 121 seeks to address: it effectively prohibits the deployment of either hydrogen-ready boilers or boilers that use blue hydrogen under low-carbon heat schemes.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. Before he corrected himself, I was about to contradict him and say that a number of energy-from-waste plants are already supplying district heating networks—as he said, there is a particularly big one in south London, which I have visited. It is doing so, because the Government supported it. It received grant money to enable it to do that. There are a number of others around the country, so we already have existing powers and support funds to support heat networks.

We are very supportive of energy-from-waste plants using the waste heat to connect into district heating networks. However, it is a difficult area, because it depends on a number of factors. You have to have the energy-from-waste plant in the first place, and office blocks, apartments, et cetera have to be available to take the waste heat. The noble Lord will know that later in the Bill we will discuss the zoning power for heat networks that local authorities will have, which hopefully will enable them to utilise those powers and take heat networks forward; there are a number that are very keen to do so. I would certainly envisage that a number of energy-from-waste plants—those in inner cities, in particular—will be able to take part in those initiatives.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his response. I am somewhat reassured by the timetable that these regulations will be pursued against. I would like to mention that it is not unusual for government to announce things and for there to then be quite a long delay. Energy-efficiency standards reaching EPC C by 2035 was first announced in 2017, but we still have not seen that make it through. If we had, we would be in a far better position now as we face this winter, where we have shortages of gas, and we should have more efficient homes. There is a reason why we are pressing on this timescale.

I support the Government’s amendments as introduced and the Minister’s statement that it is not helpful to expand this particular scheme at the moment any further than it is already defined. It is important to have clarity. The nearest corollary to this legislation is the ZEV mandate, which we will probably discuss in relation to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is better to have clarity of purpose that gives manufacturers and industry time to adapt and build an industry. It is clear in my mind that electrification of heat is probably 90% of the answer, if not the full answer. Therefore, getting it right, keeping it tight and giving confidence for investment would be the fastest way for us to get off volatile, expensive and unhealthy fossil fuels. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 117 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I decided to table this amendment, because I felt that it was important to draw attention to what I and many in the transport sector see as the lack of leadership from the Government on this issue. It is important to bear in mind that the Government have seemingly very good targets on decarbonising the transport sector, but there is no detail on how we are going to get there. The path ahead is very vague.

Transport is the largest carbon-emitting sector in the UK. It is responsible for a quarter of CO₂ emissions globally. In the UK, the sector has reduced its emissions by only 3% since 1990. That stands in contrast with other sectors. There is a desperate need for leadership, because we are falling behind. The evidence is that we have to be halfway there by 2030 to reach the goals for 2050, but we do not have the plans, the policy or the path set out for us, and it is now a matter of great urgency.

One reason why emissions have not reduced is that although the technology has improved, the number of vehicles on the road has increased, as has the size of cars. Although they are more efficient kilo for kilo, if I can put it that way, they weigh more now and have a greater impact and emit greater amounts of carbon. I want to say briefly that we are talking about this in relation to carbon emissions, but it is, of course, a matter of health. It has a huge impact on our breathing and things like heart attacks, and so on. It is a matter of considerable importance in health.

A great deal is made about the move to electric vehicles, but only 2% of the vehicles on the roads so far are EVs. We are a very long way behind the leaders—countries such as Norway, where up to half of vehicles sold are EVs. My amendment refers specifically to hydrogen, and hydrogen is controversial. Of course, it must be green hydrogen. Even then, green hydrogen has disadvantages, but the advantage of hydrogen is that it provides an early answer to the difficult-to-decarbonise sectors of the transport world—that is, heavy goods vehicles, heavy vehicles generally and, of course, shipping, which is particularly difficult to decarbonise. That is one reason why there is the reference to hydrogen.

The other reason why there is a reference to hydrogen is that, unlike with electricity for vehicles, hydrogen cannot really be installed on a commercial basis unless the Government put in place a set of carrots and sticks to encourage it commercially to be installed. It costs over £1 million to install a hydrogen-fuelling point. It is not the answer for ordinary domestic cars. It could be the answer for fleets of vehicles such as vans, but it is not going to be, unless the Government provide leadership.

I have been raising this issue for the past six years at least, and the Government have said that the market will solve the problem of electric vehicle charging points. To a certain extent, the market has stepped in. Of course, there are huge gaps, but the market has stepped in. The reason it has been able to is that all around us there is electricity—but we do not have hydrogen all around us. I deliberately mention hydrogen in the amendment because the Government need to consider how they are going to lead on this issue.

I finish by saying that the point of the amendment is to open up the matter for discussion and to give the Government the opportunity to consider—and, I hope, to think again about—the urgent need for leadership in setting out a set of steps, a policy or plan. These exist in other countries without Governments taking a huge commercial risk, but simply by providing the incentives to encourage people to choose more environmentally friendly ways of fuelling their vehicles and ensuring that, having chosen a more environmentally friendly vehicle, they can run it efficiently and effectively.

Noble Lords will be well aware that every time we talk about electric vehicles, there is immediately a discussion of the latest crisis that someone has faced in being unable to charge their EV—despite the fact that they are probably running short of electricity outside a house or fuel station that is blazing in electricity. Let us just think about how much more complex the matter is if we are talking about hydrogen.

This is about discussing the difficult issues and encouraging the Government to look ahead and plan—urgently—for what must be achieved. The average life of vehicles on the roads now is 16 years, I believe, and that will probably get longer because we are facing a period of difficulty, austerity and rising prices. This is therefore important, because those decisions made this year about what vehicle to buy—whether you are an individual or as a company—will be with us for decades to come. The Government must lead in the way only Governments can. I beg to move.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 124A, as presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I must say that it is seldom that we disagree, because we both share the objectives of a rapid response to the growing climate risk, rapid decarbonisation and increasing the efficiency of our energy systems. I welcome this chance to have a debate about the intersectionality between transport and energy. In fact, and not to pre-empt it, I have an Oral Question later this week about how departments connect on these issues. It is hugely important that the DfT, in particular, teams up with BEIS on planning for our future decarbonised energy systems.

That said, I do not think it will come as any surprise that I am absolutely opposed to the idea of bringing in this set of amendments as currently drafted. My belief is that hydrogen will have a very limited role, for three reasons. First, it is itself a climate change gas and it is very slippery; it is the smallest molecule on the periodic table and it escapes everywhere. I do not wish to have hydrogen all around me—quite the opposite. I want hydrogen in very controlled places, being looked after by industrial chemists; I do not want it in my home or in my vehicle. We just have to look at the explosion of the hydrogen fuelling station in Norway. It is often forgotten but this is a hugely explosive gas. Norway managed to blow one of its fuelling stations and, if Norway can blow things up, anyone can.

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[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, much has been said already. I agree with the main thrust of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which urges the Government to set out a very clear case for the decarbonisation of the various transport sectors. I do not think that we are there yet, and I do not think that the industry feels that we are there yet. It is important, for the reasons that the noble Baroness has just spelled out, that the transport sector knows which way it is going.

I must partially apologise to and reassure the Committee, because some of my speech was intended for the previous group of amendments. As noble Lords were making such commendable progress this afternoon, I did not get here in time to intervene on the amendment on home heating—an issue where, again, some clarity of decision is needed. Home owners and landlords are now faced with decisions on how to replace their gas boilers: they know they need to get rid of their gas boilers, but quite what they are going to get to replace them with is unclear. Of course, people replace their cars, and even their lorries and buses, rather more frequently than their houses and boilers. It is important, therefore, for the transport industry that there is some clarity on the general direction of government policy for the different sectors of transport.

On this topic, we immediately run up against the issue of hydrogen. I am not quite as sceptical as some of my colleagues, but I am sceptical, because hydrogen has been seen as a “get out of jail” card for almost every sector on their decarbonisation trails. That is not only for heavy industry, to replace the very heavily carbon-fuelled industries such as steel, glass and so forth, with its knock-on effect on the construction industry, et cetera, but for parts of the transport sector and for home heating. It has been seen by some as the solution to the decarbonisation of heavy vehicles, shipping, the train system and even aviation. However, hydrogen is not capable of doing that without safety dangers; and, in any case, it is not capable of doing that because we do not yet have the technology for producing green hydrogen at scale. Therefore, it will come in, if at all, only much further down the line. However, waiting for hydrogen—whether in the form of hydrogen blend for home heating or hydrogen-based vehicles or batteries for the transport sector—is seen as an excuse for not taking other technologies more seriously and urgently than we have done.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, would require the Government to do that job for the transport sector. I think that they need to do that for other sectors as well, and that they should not exaggerate either the degree to which hydrogen is the solution or, in particular, the closeness of technological breakthroughs to provide genuinely green hydrogen. It is not going to happen in the kind of timescale that we are talking about. Therefore, the amendment has implications beyond transport, but transport itself needs a clear plan. I hope that the Minister will take up with his transport colleagues the need to work urgently, as the noble Baroness’s amendment urges, to ensure that the transport sector knows where it is going, even if nobody else does.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry to speak a second time—I am not sure whether I am allowed—but may I speak to Amendments 130A and 130B? In my excitement I forgot to speak to them. Those amendments in my name seek to address the carbon removals questions in the Bill.

Amendment 130A is to try to interrogate the Government’s amendments to the definitions of carbon removals, as stated in the Climate Change Act. My amendment would reinstate reference to forestry and other physical activities in the UK. I think this amendment is necessary because we do not want to see definitions used in the Climate Change Act, which are foundational to our understanding of what we need to do to tackle climate change domestically, to somehow allow vague processes such as the purchasing of offsets or some other financial instrument to be eligible for the net-zero accounting. I seek reassurances on that. I also seek reassurances that we acknowledge that forestry and land use need to be referenced alongside mechanical sinks to keep the system holistic and inclusive. So I am probing on those two questions: forestry and land use, and making sure we are talking about physical activity and not financial chicanery or accounting trickery.

I feel quite passionate about Amendment 130B. I am sure the UK will emerge as a world leader in this regard. If we are to become the centre of a market or set of policies that are economy-wide in decarbonising our system, we will have to get to grips with the MRV—the monitoring, reporting and verification of carbon removals—to get to a net-zero position. It is hugely important. When you burn a tonne of fossil fuel the impacts are certain and very low in error bars, but when it comes to the biospheric removal of carbon in particular, there are huge uncertainties and an absolute paucity of data. It really has not been looked at comprehensively enough, especially now that large sums of money may be resting on this approach to reaching net zero.

I urge the Minister and the department to really assess what the UK could do to set some gold-standard regulations regarding carbon removals. Let us start the debate with this Bill, pursue it and continue with it. Given that we are at the forefront of reaching these challenging carbon budgets that we have set ourselves, I have no doubt that carbon removals will have a role to play. But let us do it in a world-class way and not use it as a weasel-word excuse for allowing fossil fuels to continue, without the certainty that those removals are genuine, additional and permanent and can offset the almost permanent damage that we know occurs from the release of fossil fuels. It is hugely important that we do this. I tabled this as an opportunity to spark a debate, and I hope we will come back and consider it in more detail. The UK has a great potential role to play in this area.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, as a member of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee, I took part in the report we produced on batteries. The genie is out of the bottle on domestic EVs. That is going to happen; I think we are well on the road to better and better battery technology.

When the committee examined transport, we heard that batteries are heavy—a battery to power a bus would be very heavy—so there is a role for hydrogen in public transport for return-to-base vehicles where hydrogen does not have to be moved too far. Where there is a limited number of filling stations, that is a model that could work. Shipping and heavy industry, such as cement, are other applications for hydrogen.

My noble friend Lady Randerson mentioned fuel cells. We found in our report that for some reason the Government are not backing research on fuel cells to the extent that they could. Fuel cells would be another potentially sensible source of power for heavy transport vehicles, so I support the basic thrust of my noble friend’s amendment.

Amendments 130A and 130B, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, are really crucial. We are going to have to look at carbon removals, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said earlier. We need to do it in a way that gives confidence against greenwashing, of which there is far too much. The only way to do that is if accounting for carbon is rigorous.

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[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to the Clause 108 and Clause 109 stand part notices and to Amendment 125 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson.

We have had wide-ranging debates but, when it comes down to the content of the Bill, the most egregious elements are possibly these two clauses. It seems absolutely incredible that we should require people to enter into a trial for something on which multiple studies have been undertaken already. We are essentially legislating to force people to take part in something we already know the answer to. We know the answer because 32 independent studies of the use of hydrogen in heating—since 2019, so they are relatively recent—by organisations including the IPCC, the IEA, Imperial College, the Potsdam Institute, the University of Manchester, the Wuppertal Institut, Element Energy and the International Council on Clean Transportation, have all found that hydrogen should not play a role in heating buildings. Hydrogen will be hugely inefficient, compared with other clean alternatives and gas, in terms of pure energy efficiency, damaging to health and dangerous. That should be enough evidence for the Government to rule out this unnecessary trial.

I honestly believe that this is a consequence of a huge amount of lobbying coming from the incumbents in the industry, including those who today manufacture gas boilers, produce gas and move gas around in the networks. What they fail to mention is that it is not as simple as just switching over to hydrogen: you have to replace virtually everything to be able to burn hydrogen at high levels. Yes, of course, you can burn very low levels, but who wants low levels? We are talking about a net-zero strategy in the next 25 years; you cannot afford to go through increments of 20% hydrogen and 30% hydrogen—it is simply not credible. It will do exactly what we saw in the co-firing of biomass in coal-fired power stations; it keeps the incumbents going for longer, keeps their investors and shareholders happy, and gives them an answer to the question, “How are you going to make your business compatible with climate change?”. It is a glib answer. It is not a full answer—in fact, it is false—but it is an answer none the less. That is why we are being forced into considering this, even though the evidence is absolutely clear that this is not the answer.

If I were a resident living in one of these poor villages—the villages of the damned, as I like to call them—I would be absolutely up in arms at the prospect of being forced into this egregious position in which I am asked to take this technology, which will be more expensive, less beneficial for my health and more damaging to the climate compared with other alternatives. I fully support the withdrawal of the two clauses; the Bill would be vastly better if we got rid of them. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling this.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I particularly support the proposal to take out Clauses 108 and 109. I did not put my name to that, but it seems the obvious solution. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, we have all been on the receiving end of massive lobbying by the hydrogen lobby. I will not go into hydrogen extensively, but clearly there are areas where hydrogen will need to work. It will be important in some energy-intensive industries and some long-term transport solutions, but we seem to have overreached in terms of those applications.

For heating, it just cannot make sense to use green hydrogen, which would have to be produced by renewable electricity, as electricity could be used anyway. Scientifically and in terms of the laws of physics and efficiency, it does not make sense. Heating is an important area—as we said, it represents some 40% of UK emissions—so surely it must be electrification directly, geothermal technologies or air source heat pumps, as we have discussed before. That is why I think these clauses not standing part is the best solution. If that is not agreed, I thank the noble Baroness for supporting my amendment; the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, has a similar one. This should not be compulsory and those consumers should be very aware of all the other repercussions.

My second amendment, Amendment 126, is less important. As with previous amendments, it just makes sure that only people who really benefit from these trials should have to pay for them and that those who do not should not. I do not understand how BEIS and the Government have become the victims of the lobbying that takes place.

Finally, perhaps I can cite a gentleman whose work I have been reading, Jan Rosenow. He takes his statistics from BEIS’s Hydrogen Production Costs 2021 and Ofgem’s wholesale market indicators. He is very clear that, depending on how you look at the timescale between now and 2050, hydrogen will cost three to 11 times more than fossil fuel gas at its present levels. Clearly, this is not an acceptable solution or route for decarbonisation.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I will start with Amendments 125 to 127; I thank the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their contributions and for promoting them. The amendments relate to Clause 109, which, alongside Clause 108, will ensure the safe and effective delivery of a village-scale hydrogen heating trial. This trial will gather evidence to enable the Government to make strategic decisions on the role of hydrogen in heat decarbonisation. I know that there are very strongly held opinions on whether hydrogen is the correct solution, but we will never know unless we do the appropriate research and trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

No.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

That is not true.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There is already a small-scale trial in Fife in Scotland. There are two shortlisted villages, Redcar and Whitby—on the west coast, not Whitby on the east coast. They have been shortlisted for the trial and we will make a decision on the basis of submissions from both communities in the new year.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I respond on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on the stand part notice that we have both signed. I thank the Minister for his response. To be honest, because I am so clear that this should not form part of the Bill, I have not gone through all the detailed provisions in these two clauses. The Minister seems to be saying that there is an absolute right of refusal, but my reading of both clauses is that the emphasis is that required information must be provided. There might be protections from financial penalties—that is implied when it talks about protecting consumers—but I cannot see it written down anywhere that the regulations will enshrine the consumers’ right of refusal.

I would be grateful if the Minister would undertake to write to us on this because this seems like a scheme where the fox is being put in charge of the henhouse. The gas transporters are the interlocuters between the poor people living in these villages who are going to be told that this is the great answer to their climate change concerns. Will they provide adequate information about safety? You are at least four times more likely to have an accident with hydrogen; it has been verified.

I take issue with the Minister’s characterisation of this as being a matter of opinion where “some people think this” and “some people think that”. It is not true. This is clear physics and chemistry. It is more likely. You may get slightly more frequent accidents at a lower explosion rate, but that does not reassure me in the slightest. Peer-reviewed scientific studies have taken place and we do not live isolated from the rest of the world. Other countries have tried this. There have been countless trials and there have even been studies in this country. This is not a safe way of proceeding. It needs to be made categorically clear that independent advice should be given to these villages, not advice given by the gas transporters which, of course, have a huge, vested interest in this going ahead.

I am afraid that I am in no way assured by the responses I have received. I certainly would not want to be living in one of these villages. I would not want hydrogen anywhere near my home. I will continue to advocate on that basis. I will not press my objection to this clause at this stage, but I am sure that we will return to this on Report. This is going to get—and needs—a lot more scrutiny. A lot more independence needs putting into the process, and it needs a rethink.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Let me just respond to the noble Baroness’s point and reiterate once again that nobody will be forced to take part in these trials. There is extensive information available. As I said, there are campaigns in some communities which want to take part in the trials. At least one MP in one of the areas is campaigning for it, and both council leaders have been contacted by officials and are supportive of it. Obviously, people want reassurance and more information; that will happen.

The noble Baroness’s other point about health and safety is crucial. I actually agree with her that, potentially, hydrogen is dangerous. Natural gas is also potentially dangerous, but we have mitigated the safety concerns of that. We will want to make sure that the HSE is involved in studies as well, and we will not do anything to put anybody at risk or do anything that will prejudice their safety. That goes without saying, and there are extensive studies taking place.

I also have some scepticism about the potential use of hydrogen for home heating, but I believe that we should do the trials to assure ourselves one way or the other where the truth lies, and whether the existing network can be repurposed easily, simply and cheaply for hydrogen. We do not actually know the answers to those questions until we do the studies, and that involves doing a trial to find that out.

With those reassurances, once again, let me reassure noble Lords that nobody will be forced to take part in these trials. Everybody will be provided with the appropriate information, and nobody will suffer any financial loss because of it, but I believe that it is worth pushing ahead with these trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

Would the Minister point to where in the Bill it states that there is a right to refusal and consumers can object? It should be stated up front in the legislation so that the regulations are clear.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am giving the noble Baroness that assurance now, and it will be in the regulations. I am happy to put it in writing, if she wishes. It is not in the Bill, because that is not the place for secondary regulations. The Bill provides the principles and the powers for the Secretary of State. Of course, when we make the regulations, there will be further potential for that to be discussed both in this House and in the House of Commons, and I am sure that it will be.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has her very passionate views, but there are lots of alternative views out there as well. We are saying that it needs to be properly looked at and studied on the basis of evidence—I know that the Greens are sometimes not big on evidence, but we believe that policy should be properly evidenced and studied. That is why we think that it is important that we should do these trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

With a Bill of this magnitude, if we are saying that it is a principle that there is a right to refuse, that principle should be in the primary legislation. That is where you put principles—and then the details can be worked out. Nothing in the Bill says that consumers have the right to refuse. I am sure that we are going to revisit this, as it is fundamentally important that principles are enshrined in primary legislation.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

Can I briefly support that? The place to put it is under protection of consumers in the Bill. There is a clause entitled “Regulations for protection of consumers”, and the right not to take part in the trial would be one of those protections.