Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Lords Hansard - part one & Committee stage
Monday 8th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am probably alone on this one: some years ago I went away from my wedding service in a pedicab in London, and I rather enjoyed it.

I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from, but I think the definition in this amendment will cause a few problems. It says that a pedicab is

“a pedal cycle, motor cycle or power-assisted cycle, or such a vehicle”—

I did not know that cycles were vehicles, but maybe that is right—

“in combination with a trailer, constructed or adapted for carrying one or more passengers.”

My daughter used to take her children to school sitting in a trailer on the back of a bicycle, and that would be covered by this amendment. I do not quite see why she should not continue to do that. It was not motor-assisted, but it could have been. This needs looking at.

I think what the noble Baroness is getting at is that she does not like the look of these things. I would agree—they do not look particularly nice. The biggest problem is that many are not insured. That is a serious problem. Whether they need controlling or licensing by TfL needs a bit of debate. The black cabs obviously do not like them because they take away business. Are we in the business of protecting black cabs because they look nicer than these pedicabs that go around with not just lights flashing but some pretty horrible music coming out of them sometimes? On the other hand, are we here to regulate music and pedicabs? I do not know. The key for me is that they should have third-party insurance at the very least. Whether their fares should be controlled is a debate that is probably down to TfL to decide. Secondly, who is going to enforce this?

The other type of “vehicle”, if you can call them that, are freight cycles, which are beginning to appear in the streets of cities, London included. Sometimes they have two wheels, sometimes three or four—I do not have a clue which—but they distribute freight to outlets in the city as an alternative to trucks and vehicles, which cause a lot of pollution if they are not electric. Do we want to prevent them going around? They might be plying for hire, and the customers would be moving freight, not passengers. Whether they should be insured is debatable, because cycles are not required to be insured at the moment, and I expect we will have a debate about scooters in a couple of years’ time. But it is questionable whether a freight cycle, with or without power assistance, should be covered by this. I suggest that it should not be. This goes back to the only issue on which I think I disagree with the noble Baroness, which is insurance, because they are carrying passengers for hire. If I am carrying my family or some friends as passengers in a trailer on the back of my bike, I do not see why I should have to be insured if I do not feel like it. I think that is the same as on a bicycle.

I hope the noble Baroness will consider these issues. If she comes back on Report with a changed amendment, she should confine it to things which really matter from the safety point of view, rather than widening it to freight, family trips or something else.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend. It is ludicrous that pedicabs are regulated in some parts of the country but not in London.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Monday 8th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid the Minister’s response is a little disappointing. I was hoping he would say a bit more about what use we could make of technology and whether Network Rail would experience any difficulties in putting some of its infrastructure, say, half a mile away from its bridges. Does Network Rail have the power to put infrastructure on the road system, perhaps half a mile away from a bridge, in order to provide a warning for a driver that he is over height —something similar to what is done at the Blackwall tunnel?

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about training. It occurred to me that we could make it a part of HGV driver training that the driver of a lorry was required to compare his vehicle’s height to that of any infrastructure that he went under. On approaching a railway bridge he could say, “My height is 14 feet and the height of the bridge is 15 feet, so we’re fine.” If every time he went under a bridge he considered orally whether he could get under it, that might be a good starting point and might actually make a difference.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed and to the Minister for his response. I am afraid my view is that, however much he may say there is existing legislation, it is not working. That is clear. It is quite difficult for a driver to find the height of his vehicle. I spent several decades working in the rail freight sector, and trying to get a container on a rail wagon under a road bridge going over a railway was difficult because all these vehicles, be they rail or road, have suspensions so, depending on the load, the wagon or vehicle goes up and down. Still, given the rules that affect the railway sector, what we have in the road sector is frankly pretty weak.

I fully support the idea of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that there should be much greater emphasis on putting the information on to electronic GPSes, which I think most lorries have. One has to assume that the driver can read; that is probably not always the case but it is something to start from. He asked whether Network Rail had the power to build something away from the network. My answer is: in most cases, no. It would have to talk to landowners, seek planning permission and so on, although putting up a post with an electronic beam going across would be all right. On the continent, people do something rather better, and in France it is particularly evident: on a low bridge there is a steel structure, a portal frame, with bells and spikes on. It is clearly marked with its height, but if you see something up ahead with spikes and you are driving a lorry with rather a valuable load, you will probably stop and think before going through it. A few of those on the worst-offending bridges would be quite good.

Lastly, I suppose, I hope that the Minister will encourage Network Rail to take proceedings to reclaim as much of the cost as seems relevant, because some of them behave like a good old-fashioned nationalised industry and say “Well, you know, this is one of those things: let’s try to get a bit back.” They should be quite aggressive about it, while making sure that their own information is on these electronic guides and maps and everything like that.

I will look carefully at what the Minister says, and we may come back with something on which to seek a meeting before Report. I am conscious that the wording in my amendment is rather amateur, and after listening to what he has said it would be good to talk to him and Network Rail again, as well as to other colleagues, to see whether we can come up with a solution that encourages and educates but also takes action against people who do not do as they should. On that basis, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Can I ask the noble Earl a question? It seems, from listening to his speech, he is saying that all Travellers are criminals. He did not quite say that all criminals are Travellers, but he got some way towards it. What is his solution? Is it to deport them to some offshore island, so they do not affect our way of life?

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

When the noble Lord looks at my speech carefully, he will see I said there is legitimate economic activity for Travellers. I accept that plenty of Travellers engage exclusively in legitimate economic activity. I decided not to tease the noble Lord and ask him who he thought was stealing all the electrical cables from the railway system.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am not going to get involved in a debate about which of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, or my noble friend Lord Whitty was the better Transport Minister or Roads Minister: I think they were both good.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I was only a government spokesman. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was a policy-determining Minister; I was not.

[Lord Berkeley]

Well, maybe that will change someday.

To speak briefly to Amendment 4, I think the noble Baroness has tried hard to interpret the long debate we had in Committee about the method of allocation and we will have to see how it goes: I think we cannot go much further on it. However, I support my noble friend Lord Whitty’s Amendment 5 on these criteria, which Unite has quite rightly been proposing for the operators. As the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, mentioned, though, it is going to get even more unfair if foreign lorries coming here do not have to comply with the same criteria. We risk losing more traffic to foreign lorries: it is massively out of balance at the moment and will get worse. I am not sure how we do it, because the Minister said about a previous part of the Bill that we cannot legislate about anything to do with foreign lorries coming here. I hope she will reflect on the need not only to take into account my noble friend’s amendment but how to apply that to lorries that come to this country so that there is a fair balance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have realised to my horror that I have not repeated the declaration of interest that I made at the earlier proceedings: I own or operate two very large trailers, one of which weighs 27,000 kilograms and the other 17,000 kilograms empty.

I am very concerned about light trailer safety, about which I spoke at greater length in Committee. I had discussions on the matter with my noble friend the Minister in private and was able to go a lot further than I went in public in frightening her a bit—I hope. It is a remaining weakness in our road safety regime and the condition of our vehicles, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, alluded to. It is not necessary to have a universal light trailer registration scheme to achieve testing of trailers, but the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, spoke about theft of trailers. She is absolutely on the money: this is a big problem. I suspect that it would be alleviated by general registration of trailers, because, to sell a stolen trailer, one needs an identity. Due to changes made to the write-off provisions for cars, for instance, it is much more difficult to acquire an identity of a written-off vehicle—for reasons with which I shall not bore the House. There may therefore be an argument for registering small trailers for reasons of deterring theft, but it would not be necessary if one wanted a testing regime.

I mentioned that I have had a private discussion with my noble friend the Minister. I have also secured a meeting, planned for 2 May, with my honourable friend the Minister for Transport, Jesse Norman. Other noble Lords are welcome to join me for this meeting: I think a meeting with the Minister, with the benefit of having the officials in front of us, where we can put these points and look at this in detail, has much to commend it in the short term. I think we would have a greater chance of convincing the Minister that we need to make some changes by that procedure than by agreeing an amendment to the Bill now that we know perfectly well will be overturned in the House of Commons. That will still not get us the objective we desire, whereas I suggest that at a meeting with the Minister, with officials, we will be able to drill down and ask rather more searching questions. I can be rather more frightening to the Minister on the issue in private than I can be in public.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I did not intend to speak on this amendment, but I was really rather surprised to hear the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, say that he was in favour of registering trailers against the risk of theft. I rather got the impression that he was not concerned about safety: after all, cars have MOT tests largely to ensure that they operate safely. Given the examples that my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe and the noble Baroness have given of things that have gone wrong with trailers, with some pretty disastrous results, it seems to me there is a very strong argument for having registration to cover safety as well. Whether that covers the same things as the MOT, we can debate, but it seems important. Not all trailers weigh 27 tonnes—I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, on being able to pull 27 tonnes with something that goes down the road legally—but I think there is a very strong argument from a road safety point of view for having a registration scheme.

[Earl Attlee]

I think it was really good that we had the benefit of a pep talk from the noble Countess, Lady Mar, who is on the Woolsack as we speak, because I can correct the noble Lord on a material point: my point was that it is not essential to have a registration scheme if you want to have a testing scheme, even for light freight. Even now we have a testing scheme for HGV trailers but we do not have a registration scheme. It does not mean that I do not think it is important; it is just that it is not necessary to have a registration scheme.

Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, regarding Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I do not think we should tie the hands of government. If we set something in stone in primary legislation, it will be to our disadvantage and our opponents’ advantage. However, I very much hope that the negotiations will result in the absolute minimum of friction, for the reasons so well explained by all noble Lords who have spoken so far. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, observed that there are no draft regulations in sight and that this is a framework Bill. That is not surprising, because we do not know what the negotiated agreement will look like. However, the Committee will be aware that if the Bill is passed, it will strengthen the Government’s negotiating hand.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raises an important point in his Amendment 7. I would like to see no restrictions on permits—more or less free issue—with one exception, which I am sure he will agree with. Is there any scope for denying permits to non-compliant operators if they are in trouble with the traffic commissioners or the Vehicle Inspectorate? I do not expect an answer from my noble friend the Minister this afternoon but perhaps she could write to me in due course. As I say, I am for no quantity restrictions but I do not think we should put this into the Bill because it would tie the hands of Ministers when they are negotiating Brexit.

[Lord Berkeley]

I understand the noble Earl’s comment in suggesting that Amendment 7 may not be a good thing to put into the Bill. But he will remember that when this was debated at Second Reading, there was much discussion of the allocation of permits. Does he not agree that there needs to be some wording to ensure that the allocation, if it has to happen—I share his views that it should not and that there should be enough for everyone—should be seen to be fair? Perhaps he has some other ideas to replace my proposed new clause in Amendment 7.

[Earl Attlee]

I assure the Committee that I will not be tabling amendments but I was alarmed by some of the history of permits that we looked at during Second Reading. That is something I do not want to see because it constrains the market and competition. I would much rather see permits issued more or less freely, with that one exception: that we could see it as an opportunity to make things more difficult for non-compliant operators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

I certainly will. As I said, we currently use it in certain non-EU agreements, but this is obviously the first time we will be partially using it in an EU-UK agreement. Let us not forget that we are all hopeful that we will not need to include it, but if we do, it is incredibly important that we get it right in order that it is fair. I will take it away, discuss it further and see whether we can get across the same principle and ensure that we are not subject to legal challenge in a way that is more acceptable to noble Lords.

[Earl Attlee]

When my noble friend takes it away, can she also have a look at why we do not simply auction the permits? We auction all sorts of things: oil exploration rights, for instance. They are very valuable and they are auctioned. That seems a much more sensible way to allocate a scarce resource rather than first come, first served, which seems to have all sorts of difficulties alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, although he shakes his head vigorously.

[Lord Berkeley]

The noble Earl would prefer to see a lorry load of caviar coming in rather than basic food.

[Earl Attlee]

I made it quite clear that I do not think we should go anywhere close to being short on permits. We are talking about disaster if we are short on permits. As we know perfectly well, the Bill’s provision is just a long-stop measure, but I am glad that my noble friend will be taking it away.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, yet again makes an interesting and important point about fuel dipping. It is a burden on the industry. I have to confess that I made a suggestion to do with the problem of foreign trucks coming into the UK with very large tanks of fuel, running around the UK and then leaving with tanks that are practically empty so that the Treasury gets none of the benefit of the fuel. I suggested that every HGV, UK or foreign, should leave the UK with a nearly full tank of fuel, but that suggestion did not find favour because it was thought to be contrary to EU rules. However, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raises an important point.

The noble Baroness asked why we should charge. I come back to the point that we simply do not know what the negotiations are going to give us. We again hope for a simple system, but if we end up with a more complex system, naturally there will have to be charges—presumably cost recovery only, as it should not be seen as a profit centre. We need to remember that the cost of running a maximum-weight articulated vehicle is quite considerable—I do not know the current figures—so the cost of a permit in the overall cost of the operation will not be that significant. Whether it is an SME or a large operator, the cost per mile of an HGV is very high.

I have what might be a slightly tricky question for the Minister. We are cost recovering, but are we going to use the UK fees that we raise from our own hauliers to cover the cost of inspecting foreign trucks over here to make sure that they have a permit? If there is a 75%/25% split for contingency—where the 25% is the UK operators—25% of operators will be paying a small amount of money in but spending a lot of money on ensuring the compliance of foreign operators. Some people might have something to say about UK operators paying for the policing of foreign operators.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, the idea is that a lot of foreign trucks are going to be inspected. It does not happen at the moment very much, and if it is going to happen in future, there will have to be a very large increase in the number of inspectors and locations for inspection. The profit margin of most of these operators is very low, so the cost of a permit, which, as the noble Baroness said, may be only £50 to £85, may be quite a lot to some people. I am more concerned that it appears that EU lorries coming into our country will not have to pay anything because they already have a permit from their own country. Are we giving them an £85 advantage just to come here? I assumed that we would be able to charge them to give them a permit, but, as the noble Baroness said earlier, they already have a permit. There is something out of balance here. I do not know what the solution is, but I hope that the Minister can look at this. Perhaps we should have our own permit scheme, or else it should be free for everybody. It does not seem fair at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

If a truck has to be checked statically in a car park somewhere, that will be quite expensive. The DVLA no longer has the system of excise duty licences on cars; that is checked by number plates. Is there a way of adopting a similar system for trucks—even for foreign ones? I know they have different number plates, but it would be much easier and would give a much more comprehensive range of checks.

[Earl Attlee]

What about the HGV levy system and the technology behind it? It uses ANPR to enforce it, so I should have thought that it would work automatically.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord and my noble friend make important points. Of course, we want to use IT systems whenever we can both to minimise the burden for hauliers and for Government to check on these things. The permit system may not be allocated to a specific truck; it could be allocated to a haulage company. That may be difficult, but we are exploring it. The current system is that the DVSA outside the port will pull over a truck and check it on the side of the road. That is one of the options that we are exploring. If there is a way to do it that is less expensive and more efficient, we will certainly do that.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot recall what position I took on the noble Baroness’s amendment in Committee, but I am not sure that it is one that we should accept. The reason is simply that air crashes and rail crashes are extremely complex events and it is not always clear what has caused an accident. The accidents that the noble Baroness refers to are road traffic accidents where, generally speaking, it is obvious what caused the accident. This is not an amendment that I would support.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I do support this amendment; my noble friend has set out the need for this confidential safety reporting very clearly. I do not accept the comment from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that rail and air accidents are complex and therefore need confidential safety reporting but that road is quite simple—you have an accident and it is quite clear who caused it.

There is also a marine confidential reporting system, which noble Lords may know about. You could argue that you hit something or you hit another ship and it is clear what the cause was, but I think that it is a slightly simplistic argument. We are talking about a confidential reporting system that may include something that is wrong with the equipment—whether ship or aeroplane—that a person is operating. There may be something he or she feels that their employer should have done something about and has not. One likes to think that, with confidential reporting, that could be put right without employees’ putting their jobs at risk. That does not always happen but in other sectors such a provision is an incentive to report issues. I think the systems are exactly the same as between air, road, rail and marine. As my noble friend said, it is interesting to note that confidential reporting has worked well with the railways. Indeed, she has changed the amendment to reflect the situation that operates on the railways.

A few years ago, both the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and I tried to get the Office of Rail and Road, as it is now called, to take responsibility for road safety on the trunk road network and the motorways in the same way as it does for the rail network. We argued that the conditions on the respective networks were much the same. That office had the expertise not just to say, when investigating an accident, that things could be done better, but to go into all the information, statistics and safety rules and bring in one consistent policy, at least for road and rail. I argue that air and marine are slightly different areas but road and rail are very similar land surface forms of transport.

I consider that the confidential reporting mechanism gives comfort to drivers and other staff employed on buses. They are mostly operated by one person, the driver, so we are talking about just drivers. I think that it would also give comfort to passengers. It is evident that most London bus services are extremely good. However, I think that other bus operators sometimes put their drivers under pressure to bend the rules, whether on drivers’ hours, speeding or not looking after their passengers properly. If confidential reporting were in place, people would have the ability to make complaints if they wished to do so. It would also give operators an incentive not to abuse the system and to improve the quality of journeys generally, which is what this whole Bill is about.

My noble friend said that bus operators in London have introduced confidential reporting. That is wonderful but there is no reason why London bus passengers or employees should be treated any differently from those in the rest of the country. Another reason for introducing this Bill is to bring the quality of services in other parts of the country in line with that of the service in London.

This is a good amendment which we have discussed several times at various stages. Frankly, if the Minister rejects it now, I would have to ask him whether the Government consider that bus accidents, bad driving by bus drivers or bad quality of bus services—buses are a form of public transport, as are rail, ferries or air transport—and the necessity of having good-quality, safe bus services are less important for buses than for other forms of transport, perhaps because not so many Members of your Lordships’ House travel by bus as by other forms of transport. I hope that is not the case. However, if the amendment were rejected, that would be my perception. As I say, this is a good amendment and I support it.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - part two): House of Lords
Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much support this amendment. My noble friend has set out very clearly why it is necessary. It is useful to reflect on the continuing difference in the way road and rail accidents and injuries are considered. I recall a few years ago when the Government were forming Highways England—I think that is the name of it now—several of us tabling an amendment which stated that the Office of Rail and Road, as it became, should be responsible for road safety. It was soundly rejected by the Government because it would have shown up just how unsafe the roads were, are and probably will be in the future.

I think my noble friend said that were 64 fatal bus collisions; I cannot remember whether it was last year or in a year. That compares with none on the railways, or maybe one in some years. Yet nobody even seems to think the subject worth collecting statistics on. She mentioned £2 million for every fatality, which is a figure that has long been used in the transport industry, be it in rail or road. It usually means that if the cause of the fatality can be identified and avoided from happening again for less than £2 million, you would spend the money on it, and if it was more than that you might not. If the value is the same, one’s only conclusion can be that the Government think that the value of a bus passenger’s life is less than the value of a rail passenger’s life when they die in a bus accident. This is a very dangerous situation to get into. We are not going to have an Office of Rail and Road looking after road safety tonight, but this amendment is a very good start to a debate that will probably go on for many years. I fully support it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is a new issue raised at a late stage in the process, but nevertheless it is extremely important. This is a critical point for confidential reporting. It is no good just very thoroughly investigating serious, fatal accidents but not looking at the near misses, because there are many more data to be extracted from near misses. Today’s near miss is tomorrow’s very serious accident. Sometimes when things go horribly wrong, there are little things leading up to it; it is not just an out-of-the-blue serious incident.

On the previous amendment, the best argument of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was the need for localism. While the Minister should take on the principle and the need for confidential reporting and strongly encourage it, under the principle of localism he would be better to leave local authorities to decide whether they need to put this into their franchise agreement or not.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 12th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have to say that I remain unconvinced by the arguments advanced by noble Lords in support of the amendments and, once again, I urge my noble friend the Minister to resist them.

As I said in Committee, combined authorities with elected mayors or any other local authority with an elected mayor are very different beasts from local authorities which have not gone down the route of an elected mayor. These authorities have thrashed out a devolution deal with the Government and are fully accountable to their citizens, so will be granted the powers to introduce local bus franchising. Even the mere suggestion that a local authority is thinking about franchising will cause uncertainty for industry. Of course that uncertainty could go on for years, indefinitely perhaps—a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Snape.

There are few things that serve to stifle innovation and investment more than uncertainty. All the while, bus operators would have no incentive to adapt their services to meet the needs of their passengers. Who would blame them, given that they could be out of business should the local authority actually make a decision and use the powers? Services would inevitably deteriorate and passengers would be the losers.

Local bus franchising, and indeed the whole concept of devolution, are not steps that can be taken lightly. There needs to be due process and proper scrutiny. Those areas with agreed devolution deals have taken that brave political step. It is absolutely right that there be a separate process for areas that have not secured a devolution agreement, and a process that will require the affirmative procedure giving Parliament the final say is, in my view, exactly what we need. I really cannot support these amendments and my noble friend will have my full support in resisting them should they be pressed to a Division.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, listening to my noble friend Lord Snape and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, makes me think that some of the reasons they are putting forward are really to do with the fact that they do not like the idea of franchises at all. I can accept that view. I think that franchises could be a very useful contribution to better bus services in many areas. However, I do not understand why a mayoral authority, but nobody else, is allowed to do this without the permission of the Secretary of State. Maybe the Minister can explain it. I mentioned Cornwall, which is one of the few authorities that, as far as I can gather, will be allowed to do it. If one thinks that all mayoral authorities are the epitome of perfection and all the other schemes in proposed new Sections 123B to 123F in the clause need a great deal of supervision from the Department for Transport, one could look at the “Rotten Boroughs” column in Private Eye every fortnight and count up which ones are mentioned most often for having allegations of sleaze, fiddle or something else. I fully support this amendment and I look forward to the Minister’s answers.

[Earl Attlee]

In response to the question posed by the noble Lord to me and the noble Lord, Lord Snape, I say that we oppose extending the right to franchising without the authority of the Secretary of State to provide certainty for the operators unless the local authority can get permission from the Secretary of State.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this amendment is all about compensation for loss of business, and its purpose is to make it a requirement on a franchising authority to factor in the cost of compensating bus operators as part of the assessment of a proposed franchise scheme.

I can anticipate the Minister’s response, but I would still like to explain my concerns. If the state needs to remove something from a person for the public good, then the state should compensate that person. It is quite simple: if land is purchased under compulsory purchase power, the owner of that land gets paid for it. I am fully aware that compensation would not have been payable under a quality contract scheme, although the days of quality contracts are severely numbered, and that when toes were dipped in that particular pool of water it ended rather badly, but it does not make it right, which is why my party was not keen on it.

The cost of compensating a bus operator who has to close his business, having failed to win a contract bid, could well run into millions of pounds, taking into account the physical assets—vehicles, depots and land—and the good will that the business enjoys. In one of our previous debates, the noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked what would happen to garage premises in the city centre, and would they be redeveloped and lost, and about all sorts of complications. I will speak about good will again when we reach Clause 5.

If that is not bad enough for the large plcs which would have to redeploy—hopefully—their staff and assets, we should consider the position of SME operators. These businesses will have been established on the back of solid hard work and with considerable financial risk and energy on the part of private individuals, who will have invested their life savings to see their company grow. They stand to lose all that not because they have performed badly, not because they are bad companies and not because their passengers have decided they no longer want to use their services. They stand to lose it all simply because they lost out on a bidding process for the franchise. Apparently, all their endeavours are worth nothing.

The Bill is currently silent on the matter of compensation, which I believe is wrong. I was really quite alarmed by the comments made by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham at Second Reading, when he said that foreign owners of bus companies, but not British ones, might be entitled to compensation under the TTIP agreement, currently being negotiated at European level. I suggest that the whole issue of compensation needs to be revisited. Is it right that a foreign company could be paid millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money, because its local authority has decided to take control of its local bus services, while a British company is left high and dry with no business and no compensation? The Minister will have to answer this point. I hate to say it, but this all sounds rather unconservative.

It is vital that when a local authority pursues a bus franchising scheme, the process, including a detailed assessment of the scheme, must be as robust as possible. The assessment must look at every single aspect of the proposed scheme, including whether the franchise scheme stacks up financially and represents good value for money because whose money will it be? It will be local taxpayers’ money, so the compensation to bus operators who are put out of business must be an important part of the mix. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am interested in the noble Earl’s comments about the poor small investor who has put their life savings into a bus company which is then put out of business because exactly the same thing happens on the railways, where most passenger services are franchised. I suppose the difference is that it is usually large bus companies making the bid. Some of them are owned by foreign state-owned enterprises, which means that the Government allow foreign state-owned enterprises to bid and operate train franchises but they do not allow British state-owned franchises to do the same. However, that is a slightly different matter.

Surely this is a question of which end of the telescope you are looking at. If it is question of small shareholders running a bus company in an area, they may well be worthy of sympathy in a different way from what might be called the big multinationals, but either way, experience on the railways shows that while the top management does not usually remain when a franchise changes, everyone else generally retains their job if they want it. In some cases there may be TUPE arrangements in place, but they may not be appropriate here. However, I am not convinced that the arguments for and against franchises are particularly affected by this because in practical terms many members of the workforce of a franchise of, say, a small bus company might think that they are losing their jobs, but they might well be taken on by the people running the franchise because they have local knowledge, they live locally and so on.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have tabled Amendments 71 and 72 in this group. Amendment 71 is fairly simple but none the less deals with an important matter. Its purpose is to ensure that local authorities which have acquired what will doubtless be highly sensitive company information for the purposes of preparing a franchise scheme may use that information only for the sole purpose for which it was provided. At Second Reading I expressed my concerns about the provision of this type of information to local authorities. I am not convinced that it is right that bus operators should be under a legal obligation to provide what could be highly sensitive information about such things as revenue received from the running of a particular service, employment, staff details and so on. It is quite a list.

I am certain that it is important that, having been given the information, local authorities be restricted from using it for any purpose other than that for which it was intended. They should not be able to use it willy-nilly. They should not be able to dip in and out or, even more important, to pass that information on to a third party. In that case, who knows where the information would end up? It is not inconceivable that it could end up in the hands of a competitor, and that simply cannot be allowed to happen. This is a serious issue and my amendment is intended to give some assurance to bus operators that, having provided the information, it will be protected and used for one purpose only.

The purpose of Amendment 72 is to require local authorities to pay local bus operators for the information that they must provide to assist in the assessment of a franchise scheme. This follows up on a point I made at Second Reading. I find it unacceptable that bus operators should be under a legal obligation to provide what could be highly sensitive information absolutely free of charge. Information of the type sought is part of the good will of the company, and anyone in business knows that good will is built up over many years and is hard fought for. Operators work extremely hard to develop their services and to provide the best possible journey experience for their passengers. That is what they do and it is why they are in business: to provide a decent product that people want and that they will buy. It is the same with a bus service. So to expect operators to hand over all the operating details to the very organisation that is looking to take the business off them—thank you very much—seems quite odd. It simply would not happen in any other business transaction.

[Lord Berkeley]

The noble Earl is asking that bidders be paid by the franchising authority for submitting information in preparing a bid. Is that what happens with London buses? Does TfL pay bidders in order for them to produce a decent bid? I am asking the question because I do not know the answer.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord will know that London bus operations have been regulated for some time, so the issue does not arise in London. It is a new situation.

Under any other circumstances this practice would be prohibited under the provisions of the Competition Act, so why is it okay in this case?

I remind the Committee that when the passenger transport executives sold their bus operations after deregulation in the mid-1980s, such data were a huge factor in the price they sold those businesses for in the private sector. That slightly answers the point of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. However, 30 years on, such data appear to have no value and local authorities can get back for nothing what they originally sold for rather a lot of money, with operators providing the means to determine their own execution.

My amendment does not put a monetary value on the data simply because they will be different in each case; I am suggesting that operators and the authority should come to an agreement on their worth. I am under no illusion—such agreement is not likely to be easy and may not actually be achievable at all. In that vein, I hope that my noble friend the Minister does not regard this as a wrecking amendment. That is certainly not my intention and I will not be seeking to test the views of noble Lords on this point at any stage. However, I hope that he will be able to give some words of comfort to bus operators. Intellectual property must surely have a value, as does good will.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to my Amendment 71, which he obviously understands. I admit that Amendment 72 was slightly tongue in cheek. I said that I would never press it to a vote. However, it is important that the Committee understands that operators will be giving valuable commercial information to the authority.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply to Amendment 69A and the other amendments in my name. I recall that he said that he would write to my noble friend Lord Bradley in connection with Amendment 69. Given that Amendments 69A, 72A, 72B, 73 and 74 all have time-related issues, I wonder whether he could extend his letter to cover those as well. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I have my name to two of these amendments. I support what my noble friend has said. Let us remember that even in London, which probably has some of the newest and now cleanest buses in the country—even if they do not have any air conditioning, which does not seem to affect the emissions, luckily, but does affect the passengers—the then Mayor of London, who may even be our next Prime Minister, had to cover up the monitoring stations along Euston Road before the Olympics in order to keep the levels of pollution below those which had occurred in Beijing during its Olympics. With all the money that TfL had and has, it had to fiddle that. It was not a problem caused by buses but by other vehicles, but it was still a fact. It happens in many other cities and it is essential that some regulations or clauses such as those proposed by these amendments are included in the Bill.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the EU component of emissions standards. As a good Eurosceptic, I point out that economically you can only do it as a European standard. You cannot have each European state having its own standards. It just will not stack up. To balance that, I also point out that one needs to consider the business case for very low-utilisation buses because there simply might not be a business case for doing it, even if you considered the damage to health.

Small and Medium-sized Businesses: Access to Finance

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this short debate on improving access to finance for small and medium-sized enterprises. There has been much concern among the SME fraternity about their business health, but I detect little evidence of success in the government policies in that direction so far. I think they feel hard done by by this Government. However, as the National Audit Office said in a recent report:

“SMEs play an important role in job creation. Three-quarters of all new jobs in the UK are created by SMEs”.

That is an amazing figure, really. The report continues:

“It is therefore important that SMEs with potential are able to obtain the finance they need so that they can grow”.

Any trawl of the Government’s website, and of the BIS page in particular, will show the enormous range of support that the Government offer. The Enterprise Minister, Matthew Hancock, set out the Government’s offer to SMEs in December. Many people find the list a bit confusing. Behind all that, the message that the SMEs give is that the biggest problem is a lack of finance. It may not be there and it may be very expensive. Equally importantly, they may need even more finance than they would otherwise because government departments, large companies and others are taking so long to pay their bills that more working capital is required just to keep the business going. I shall speak a bit more about that later.

It is good for the Government to say that they are doing so much, but the experience in the field is rather different. I have a couple of examples. Five or 10 years ago a good friend of mine developed a restaurant in London that is doing extremely well, and has extended it to three or four branches. I saw him yesterday and he said, “I want to expand further, not just in London but to some of the regions—Manchester, and Bristol eventually”. He has a very good track record and is comparatively risk-free, but he found that he could not get the kind of finance that he might have been able to five years ago, and has had to beg round to get enough just to take things further. This can be seen as just a London issue, but it is not—he wants to go to Manchester and other places where jobs are surely important.

Then there is the infamous case of the Royal Bank of Scotland, which was extensively written about by the Sunday Times in the autumn. A gentleman called John Morris, who is not an SME but sadly received the SME treatment, was trying to do up a house into luxury apartments and, towards the end, when he needed £2.5 million to sort out the snagging—there must have been a lot of snagging in that building, but there we are—the Royal Bank of Scotland pulled out at the last minute, causing his cheques to bounce. I will not repeat the long story, but effectively they put him into liquidation, took the building into their property arm and used it. The inference is that they would then develop and sell it and make a lot of money and that the poor man would be left with nothing. He now seeks to sue RBS over claims that the assets were unfairly seized by the property company.

I understand that the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, has called on City watchdogs to examine this very serious allegation. Lawrence Tomlinson, the multimillionaire enterprise tsar, has published a report. What he has said is quite clear. I have a summary of his findings, which show that the,

“RBS is engineering a business into default in order to move the business out of local management and into their turnaround division … This then generates revenue for the bank through fees, increased margins and the purchase of devalued assets by their property division”.

His conclusion is:

“Without competition in the banking sector, these scandals will continue to come to light and ever more business will be hurt in the process”.

I certainly agree with that. The Government need to deal with this issue of size, lack of competition and a certain degree of arrogance, especially as they own RBS.

There is another issue that I touched on earlier. It is the question of finance needed for late payments by big companies. This was debated in the debate to which I contributed on 24 May 2012. That is some time ago. We had a lot of discussion about big companies like National Grid, which seems to have a late payment policy, and even then it does not comply with it. Some 34% of suppliers had to wait 91 days to be paid, according to Dun & Bradstreet. That process seems to be carrying on now.

I found the Question this afternoon on NHS Property Services to be interesting. This is a wonderful example of late payment. NHS Property Services is in trouble because the hospitals and other buildings that sit on its property were late in paying rent. So part of the NHS is not complying with, presumably, its own procurement procedure and is putting another part of the NHS into financial trouble. If the NHS cannot pay itself on time, what hope does anyone else have? I hope that the Minister will make some comment on this.

I am pleased that 18 months—or perhaps it is two and a half years; I cannot count—after this was raised, the Prime Minister has announced a consultation. The headline of an article from 16 October 2013 on the announcement says that, “Government could launch fines for late payment”. The article also mentions,

“a YouGov report suggesting that some 85 per cent of small businesses have endured late payment over the last two years”.

That is a big percentage. The article goes on to say:

“Outstanding payments to SMEs are now thought to exceed £30 billion, and the average business waits 38 days for payment”.

It is not clear to me what if anything the Government are doing about that. Perhaps the Minister can tell me where that has got to. It is a big problem, so how will this be enforced?

There has been a lot paper but a lack of finance, and late payments are causing a lot of problems. In its report of November 2013, Improving Access to Finance for Small and Medium-sized Enterprises, the National Audit Office is critical of the Treasury and the banks. It basically says that the Treasury needs to make things simpler and easier to understand, and urges the business bank to be more flexible and,

“target SMEs’ lack of awareness”.

I do not know whether that is going to happen. It may be that the Minister will tell us a bit about the business bank, but it is not going to directly lend or invest in businesses. What is it going to do? Will it actually help small businesses? I do not know. According to the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, the answer is basically that the bank will not do very much. The committee’s report recommends:

“The departments should use the establishment of the British Business Bank to start managing the various schemes as a coherent programme”.

There is a lot more there.

I agree with Ed Miliband, the leader of the Labour Party, who says that this problem has been going on for a long time. There is too much power concentrated in too few hands in the banking industry. Four banks control 85% of small business lending. They are not lending, give poor customer service and are risk averse. I support his proposals for a Green Investment Bank and a new British business investment bank, provided that it lends.

In conclusion, small businesses need a climate in which to flourish, which they do not have at the moment. They need confidence. Who is winning? The big boys are winning at the moment. Small businesses need long-term stability and the debate about Europe is not helping. It certainly will not help small businesses. I could go on but we are having a debate about Europe tomorrow. I am much looking forward to the contributions from other speakers, who are much more expert than I am, and to the Minister’s comments.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I should point out that this is a topical QSD and is limited to 60 minutes, even though it is last business, as provided for in the Standing Orders. Noble Lords have four minutes, and when the clock shows four minutes, they will be into their fifth minute.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, it says on today’s lists that the debate is time limited to 90 minutes.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that is why I came to the Dispatch Box. There is a slight error on the list. The timings are correct but the overall time suggested is not correct.

Railways: Crossrail

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of my noble friend for the SMEs and other businesses supporting the Crossrail project. A lot of them are involved, and, in addition, many of them are based far outside London and the south-east. Transport for London will be responsible for Crossrail services. It is procuring a private sector Crossrail train operator concession, using a model similar to London Overground. Operations will start in May 2015.

The current opening strategy is split into five phases, beginning with Liverpool Street to Shenfield in May 2015. In December 2018, services will start through the main Crossrail tunnel between Paddington and Abbey Wood. Full services will open in December 2019.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the Minister explain whether there are still plans to have two different signalling systems on this tunnel, one in the tunnel and one on Network Rail on either side? What assurances can he give that the trains will not have to stop at the changeover point? That would not be very good when a two-minute headway frequency is planned for the trains. Is the matter resolved yet?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is not resolved yet. The noble Lord is quite right that there are two signalling systems. One is needed in the central portion in order to meet the productivity requirements. Engineers are working through the issues of transitioning from one system to another, but the trains will not need to stop in order to transition the system.

Daylight Saving

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, taking into account the value of a human life, which I think the department uses in looking at accidents, I calculate that on the noble Earl’s figures the saving would be in the order of £5 billion. He was much vaguer about the economic downsides. Will he explain more about the economic disadvantages of this change?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right: there are serious disadvantages. In the aviation industry, for instance, in the long term it would be positive. However, it would take three years to adapt to the time change, and the aviation industry would need five years’ notice of the change. In addition, it would need another three years if we wanted to go back.

Energy: Biofuels

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend asks an important question. The obligation system increases the price of fuel at the pump. It is, in effect, a hidden subsidy, and it works in a very similar way to the renewables obligation for electric power.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is the noble Earl aware that the addition of biofuels to diesel does quite a lot of damage to engines which stand idle for a long time, such as those of boats and agricultural vehicles? Does he have a solution to this or is the answer to buy non-biofuel diesel for certain uses, such as those I have mentioned?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord and I discussed this during consideration of the renewable transport fuel obligation order in Grand Committee. I admitted that there are some handling problems in keeping biofuels in tanks for a long time, as the fuel needs to be circulated. I am confident that the appropriate publications, magazines and so on will alert users to the need to circulate the fuel, but the noble Lord makes an important point.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2013 will amend the legislation governing the existing renewable transport fuel obligation scheme. The small group of amendments is significant in our efforts to tackle climate change, and complete our transposition of the EU Fuel Quality Directive.

Article 7a of the FQD requires suppliers to reduce the greenhouse gas intensity of the fuel they supply by 6% by the end of 2020, against a 2010 baseline. This order would extend the RTFO to cover suppliers of liquid fossil fuel for additional end uses required by the FQD. These end uses are: non-road mobile machinery, including inland waterway vessels that do not normally operate at sea; agricultural and forestry tractors; and recreational craft that do not normally operate at sea.

Suppliers of fuel for end uses covered by the RTFO need to demonstrate that, for a certain proportion of the fossil fuel they supply, greenhouse gas savings are delivered through the supply of sustainable renewable fuels. In addition, the amending order would make express provision for an unpaid civil penalty issued under the RTFO to be recoverable as a civil debt, together with interest at a specified rate. This would enhance the effective enforcement of the RTFO.

It may be useful if I provide a brief overview of the regulatory framework so that the proposed changes can better be understood. We have recently introduced the Motor Fuel (Road Vehicle and Mobile Machinery) Greenhouse Gas Emissions Reporting Regulations 2012, to which these amendments closely relate. The GHG regulations require suppliers to report on the greenhouse gas intensity of the fossil fuels that they supply. The Government must obtain this information to meet our obligations under the FQD but are not able to require it under the RTFO scheme.

Both the RTFO and GHG schemes are administered by the same team at the Department for Transport. The reporting requirements of each align as closely as possible to minimise potential burdens on suppliers. The RTFO obligation is met by redeeming renewable transport fuel certificates. The order would enable suppliers of renewable fuel for additional end uses covered by the FQD to be awarded certificates. These could be sold to obligated suppliers.

As the legislation stands, the obligation would be 5% for 2013-14 and thereafter. The order would adjust this figure to 4.74% from 2013-14 to ensure that the proposed expansion of the RTFO scheme does not at this point result in an increase in the absolute volume of biofuel supplied in the UK. This is necessary because of concerns about the sustainability of some biofuels when emissions from indirect land use change are taken into account. The Commission proposed a directive in October to address ILUC. Until such time as ILUC is resolved, we are not in a position to increase the obligation level on suppliers under the RTFO. We will, however, keep this under review.

In 2011 the Government consulted on the expansion of the RTFO provided by this draft order. Further to that consultation, time was provided for suppliers and end users of gas oil to prepare. The RTFO administrator has also provided advice to suppliers and has consulted on amended RTFO guidance relating to the proposed changes. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, this is a very interesting order and quite complicated for some people to understand. I have a few questions for the Minister.

The first question refers to this issue of non-road mobile machinery. The Minister will be aware that a lot of work and debate took place on this issue, which has been around for some time. The Commission, after much persuasion, produced a directive which was published in October or November 2011 and allowed non-road mobile machinery to continue not to comply with stage III B or the equivalent for a period of three years. That would allow the railway industry—I declare an interest as chairman of the Rail Freight Group—to purchase locomotives which did not comply with the new directive. There is a good reason for that: nobody had designed a locomotive that would comply, so it was either no locomotives or ones which did not comply. The industry persuaded the Commission of this and since then, surprisingly maybe, one or two designs have popped up. However, there is still a demand for this. It is now one year and three months since the directive was agreed in Brussels but it has not yet been converted into British law. So, technically, although anybody who buys a locomotive—I think that it also applies to tractors and other things off-road—is compliant with EU legislation, they can be taken to court and fined in this country because the Government have not got round to producing these regulations.

Perhaps the Minister can therefore answer two questions. First, when are we going to see these regulations? I hope the answer will not be “soon”, because in many Governments’ terms “soon” probably means a year’s time, and by that time they will have run out of space.

Secondly, what effect will the new regulation converting the directive into UK law have on this order? It seems to me—I may have got it wrong; I stand to be corrected—that we are implementing what is not a very sensible scheme from the Commission to add biofuel to existing fuel, especially when there is a shortage of crop area and crops around the world, which puts up the cost of fuel. Turning some of those crops into bio seems a bit perverse to me. Certainly the Renewable Energy Association believes that this will be a seriously perverse incentive to investment in renewable fuels and renewable generating capacity. It is talking about the market size being reduced to 30% or 40%, jeopardising investment of £1 billion and putting 3,500 jobs at risk. One can dispute those figures, but what consultation has taken place with the Renewable Energy Association? It is a very respectable organisation.

On Monday I attended a sort of round table with the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, our new Treasury Minister, who was extremely good. It was a Chatham House event so I am not going to say who said what. It was to do with investment and infrastructure, and investment in other things that the Government are so keen on at the moment. We were told, and there was general agreement, that there was not much trouble with finding the funds for investment. The two problems were: first, planning—which is going on in the Chamber at the moment; and secondly, some kind of comfort for the investors that the Government are not going to change their mind and change the ground rules or the buy-in price or whatever during the time when investors are trying to get a return on their capital.

I hope that the Government are going to follow-up this particular regulation with a new debate with the Commission as to what is right and what is wrong for biofuels and whether they should be there at all. Current thinking across many parts of the world has probably overtaken the original idea behind this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about non-road mobile machinery, particularly the railway industry and locomotives, and the emissions regulations. I would like to point out that this order deals with the carbon intensity of the fuel. His point is not actually directly relevant, although I had a very interesting discussion with the officials at the Department for Transport who are directly responsible for this issue. It is quite close but not exactly on the subject. I will write in detail to the noble Lord about where we are on the emissions regulations for railway locomotives.

[Lord Berkeley]

The noble Earl is right to say that the NRMM is an emissions regulation rather than a fuel regulation, but is there no link between the two?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I should imagine that technically they are inextricably linked, but the order deals with the RTFO and carbon intensity. The noble Lord is more worried about the emissions regulations on oxides of nitrogen and particulate emissions from railway locomotives. I have to say that some railway locomotives can best be described as filthy.

The noble Lord also questioned whether the ILUC proposals will harm renewable energy investment, and the noble Baroness touched on the same point. We are keeping levels of biofuels the same due to the ongoing ILUC concerns. We are actively negotiating this issue in Europe, and when the ILUC problem is resolved, we will be able—

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness is passionate about this issue and I hope that she will allow me to get on to that very point.

When the ILUC problem is resolved, we will be able to increase the total amount of biofuel we create and process. In response to the point made by the noble Baroness, we are not reducing the total requirement for biofuel. I accept her point about the percentage of the market, which is going down slightly at the moment due to the economic conditions. Clearly, the total amount of biofuel produced will also go down; I accept the point. However, I do not expect the noble Baroness would be happy if, when the market starts to go up, we were to cap the amount of biofuel. If the market goes up, she would like to see more biofuel being produced—and the market will start to recover at some point.

[Lord Berkeley]

That is a fairly rash statement, is it not? The latest figures I have seen show that road traffic movements have gone down over the past four years whereas railway passenger numbers have shot up. Is this a change in government policy? Do they expect road traffic volumes to rise again? Is this all down to economic circumstances? If that is the case, why have rail passenger numbers gone up? Of course, rail passengers are not so directly affected by this. Obviously the Minister can say, “If road traffic goes up”, but it may not.

[Earl Attlee]

Noble Lords opposite know perfectly well that a range of factors affect the demand for transport. Demand for the fuels which propel that transport will fall during a recession, but when we get back to a period of growth, demand for all forms of transport will rise, as will the demand for fuel. That is inevitable. This is not a change in government policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. He is quite right: there is a problem with biofuels. I believe that people in the boating industry are expressing serious concern about it because people do not always use their boats very often, this stuff sits in the tank for a very long time, goes all funny and does not come out when they are trying to avoid hitting the rocks. That is probably a different version of the story told by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, but there are some serious problems with this issue which I do not think have yet been resolved.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have spent a lot of time discussing this very issue with my officials. I will be honest: it will be necessary to make sure that the fuel is circulated in the tanks. If fuel has been in your tanks for several years, you will experience problems. However, I would expect boating magazines to write up what needs to be done. Technical advice will be available. I have to be honest and admit that this is an issue, but it is manageable.

The noble Baroness seems to be reluctant to accept my ILUC point. If we just want to look pretty and massively increase the amount of biodiesel that is produced just to look good—that is, increase the obligation level—and get our percentages right so that the graph goes straight to the desired end-state, we could change the rules on tallow and say, “Okay, all grades of tallow are waste and therefore will get double certification”. That would look great, but the only snag is that the better grades of tallow are also used for making soap. Therefore, there would be less high-grade tallow available for making soap, the people making soap would have to find something else with which to make it, and they would go for palm oil. An increased demand for palm oil would result in indirect land use change impacts. We would look wonderful—

Republic of Ireland: Aids to Navigation

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 25th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in discontinuing their funding for the Republic of Ireland’s aids to navigation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Department for Transport in the UK and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in Ireland work together to support the Commissioners of Irish Lights’ Republic of Ireland self-funding endeavours. The process remains on course for completion in 2015-16, and in preparation the Commissioners of Irish Lights continues to reduce its headcount and to introduce new operational and commercial initiatives.

[Lord Berkeley]

I thank the Minister for that positive Answer. In fact, it is the first positive answer that the ship-owners who bring their ships into UK ports have had for 90 years, because this has been going on for 90 years. Why successive Governments have failed to make this negotiation in all that time escapes me. I am very grateful to the Minister, but can he confirm that, with or without the Commissioners of Irish Lights sorting out its financial problems, payments from the UK to the Irish Government for these lights will stop in 2015-16?

HGV Road User Levy Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 7th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that will be done under the powers that were wisely introduced by the previous Administration, who also set the level. I agree that it is at quite a low level and made that very point from the Opposition Benches—I cannot remember whether it was the Front Benches or the Back Benches—at the time we introduced the necessary powers. The key thing is that we will be able to stop the vehicle. That is extremely inconvenient to the operator, and I will have more to say on that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked me what a stopping officer is. Stopping officers already exist. They are appointed under the powers in the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended, and are able to stop vehicles in relation to enforcement of vehicle roadworthiness and driver’s hours. Stopping officers are VOSA enforcement officers.

[Lord Berkeley]

I have a question before the Minister leaves that subject. There is presumably a database with every vehicle’s number plate on it. Are stopping officers lurking in every motorway service station or do they pick these things up from cameras above motorways? How are they going to find these lorries that have not paid even before they direct them into somewhere safe to deal with them? If I was a foreign lorry driver and did not want to pay, I would keep off trunk roads and go on the side roads, like many people do in France if they do not want to pay the motorway tolls.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I plan to address most of the points made by the noble Lord later on. To answer his point about leaving the strategic road network and going on to minor roads: an operator would have difficulties with that because the vehicle would be much less productive, while he would be trying to avoid only a £10 per day charge. I suggest that the extra cost of lowering your average speed by using local roads would simply not be worth it. For cases that go to court, the offence is a level 5, which can incur a fine of up to £5,000.

However, the real deterrent for operators is the inconvenience of being stopped, as well as another inconvenience that I will come to in a moment. VOSA already carries out risk-based stops for a number of different offences, including weight, vehicle defects, and driver hours, among others, and the levy enforcement will simply be added to this regime. I also suggest that when VOSA detects a vehicle that has not paid the levy, that is exactly the same as if the driver had put a big sign on the lorry which says “Stop me, because I’m a problem vehicle”.

I am aware that the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association has identified an area for a small potential cost burden to operators, which has been introduced due to the way that the levy is rebated, when compared to how VED is currently and will continue to be rebated. It may be helpful for me to say a few words on this. Currently when a vehicle is delicensed—typically, when it is sold—the previous owner can claim back the outstanding whole months of VED, with the rebate calculation done in twelfths. From the introduction of the levy in April 2014, UK operators will still be able to reclaim VED on the same basis, but the levy can be reclaimed only in tenths. To comply with EU law, and to maximise revenue from monthly charges, the annual rate is set at 10 times the monthly rate. This means that in effect it is discounted when compared with the costs of 12 monthly levy charges.

The decision to offer rebates on the basis of tenths is to prevent foreign hauliers paying for a year, using the vehicle for a month or less on the UK’s roads, and then reclaiming 11 months. The value of the loss incurred by the operator is entirely dependent on when the rebate is claimed.

The legislation before the House is not designed as a precursor to increased charges on businesses or on road users in general. This charge has a very clear, focused objective, and its introduction is entirely separate from the reviews on future road policy which the Department for Transport is currently undertaking.

I will now deal with a few other points. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked why it is a money Bill, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, very kindly helped me. The Bill only concerns money, and is certified as such by the Speaker of the House of Commons; it is not a matter for the Government.

On the wider points made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on the methods of tolling, following our debate during the passage of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill I offered a meeting at ministerial level with the noble Lord; I hope that that meeting, which is in hand, will be with me. I have mentioned detection. I was asked about VED in other countries. All EU countries have VED for HGVs, or a local equivalent circulation tax. VED or equivalent is required in the Eurovignette directive, and minimum rates are set. Our new VED rates comply with the minimum rate.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised a very important point about whether we should implement a levy on a distance or a time basis. I will say a few words about this important point. The HGV levy is a time-based charge which is both simple and inexpensive to operate. It allows more than nine out of 10 UK operators to be fully compensated through VED reductions. A distance-based scheme has been considered and has some benefits, in that hauliers who use the road network the most would pay the most. That seems, at face value, to be inherently fair. However, in reality it would cost hauliers more and it would not be possible to introduce offsetting measures for UK hauliers, which would mean that they would pay more than they do now. In many cases foreign hauliers would pay less than they would under a time-based scheme.

The introduction of a distance-based scheme has also been discounted as it would be very complex and costly to operate, and would potentially involve the use of a mechanism such as a fuel duty rebate, which is illegal under European law. This has already been tested in Germany. We also believe that the revenues gained from foreign hauliers would not cover the costs of operating this scheme. The Department for Transport looked at options for distance-based charging in 2010 and concluded that in order to fund it the scheme would have to be structured to be revenue-raising, and would therefore have a negative impact on UK hauliers, who would pay most of the charges.

Another difficulty is how to capture the distance-based data. That could be done with a tachograph, but the problem is that the tachograph and the records would have to be inspected by enforcement officers. In addition, the tachograph is in essence a safety device to ensure that drivers do not drive for too long. If we insert an economic effect into it, we would increase the chances that the drivers or the operator would interfere with the operation of the tachograph.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will not go back over tolling, as we will have a meeting on that, and I am grateful to him. This is a tit-for-tat issue. He very kindly said that other member states also have a VED for domestic-registered trucks; for example, in France. Is there not a risk that those member states might play tit-for-tat and say, “Well, British hauliers going into France will be able to use the roads, with or without the tollings, but they won’t have paid the VED in France, so they’re getting an advantage”? Are we not in danger of getting a tit-for-tat situation across member states?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the situation is, as I said in my opening remarks, that our operators often have to pay motorway tolls that no one pays in the UK, and because of the Eurovignette directive, whatever a foreign country did in terms of a vignette they would be limited to the prevailing limits of what you can charge. It could not, therefore, cost our operators more than €11 a day. At the moment our operators pay tolls to use the European road infrastructure.

The chosen time-based scheme, coupled with reductions to VED, is a simple, effective and targeted way of ensuring that UK hauliers pay no more than they do now. VED cuts are a time-based method of offsetting the charge, which means that they fit well with a time-based system. In addition, we need to remember that, in terms of administration, this scheme will have a negligible burden on UK operators.

I always enjoy listening to the noble Lord, Lord Snape. He asked many questions, and I will answer as many as I can. I have probably answered quite a few already, and of course, I will write to him on some of them. He asked me what type of penalties there will be. As I believe I have said, drivers will be charged £200 at the roadside. Fines can be enforced electronically, and they can be invited to pay by credit or debit cards. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, made the point that with modern systems of doing business it is easy to collect the charges.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, also asked if, under the directive we have to offer periods that are appropriate for the trip being made. If we offer only six-month or annual levies to foreign drivers we will contravene the European directive. He asked about the number of foreign vehicles and I can tell him that 3.6% of miles driven by HGVs in the UK are by foreign vehicles. For HGVs of 12 tonnes and over, the percentage is higher. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked about revenue in VED. All levies or fines go into the Consolidated Fund, as we discussed. There are no plans for hypothecation, as the noble Lord suggests, but we will ensure that VOSA, as the primary enforcement agency, will have sufficient resources to enforce the scheme.

I am grateful for the helpful interventions from the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and for his support for the Bill. He asked me about cabotage. The Bill does not change the rules on cabotage but it does do a little to level the economic playing field. It is a difficult problem to deal with. I am delighted that the Bill has been so positively received. It has been long called for by industry and others from across the political spectrum, and I am delighted to be taking it through the House.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for tabling this amendment and for raising this issue in the House. Of course, it is always a pleasure to listen to noble Lords when they get on their hobby-horses. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Snape, will be here on Thursday afternoon to discuss the HGV Road User Levy Bill that I will propose to the House.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, makes a persuasive case in favour of amending Section 144(3) of the Planning Act 2008 in order to provide greater flexibility for developers wishing to include road charging provisions within the development consent order and to remove unnecessary additional processes and restrictions from the major infrastructure regime. While I cannot comment on the detail of individual cases, I share his commitment to ensuring the delivery of the crucial infrastructure that this country needs to support vital growth and jobs. I also agree with him that it is important that we take the opportunity to ensure that the provisions of the Planning Act 2008 are fit for purpose and are not inadvertently acting as a barrier to growth. This is therefore an area where I am able to consider further the case for an amendment to Section 144(3) of the Planning Act 2008.

On the noble Lord’s point about charges against diplomatic organisations, he will be aware that this is a long-running issue that we have debated many times. The Government pursue these charges vigorously with the organisations concerned. The noble Lord touched on the charging of road users, and of course on Thursday we will debate the HGV Road User Levy Bill, which partially addresses some of these problems.

I am happy to meet all noble Lords to discuss some of the wider issues relating to charging for roads. However, noble Lords will be well aware of the Government’s policy on wider road-user charging. With those reassurances, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment and perhaps return to it on Report.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am very grateful to the Minister for what I felt was a positive response. I did not really need much on the poor old Foreign Office’s attempt to get the Americans to pay for parking their cars here, but, on the subject of the amendment, it was good to hear that he understands the problem. I look forward to sitting down with him between now and Report and possibly encouraging the Government to come back with their own amendment, which I am sure will be much better than the one that we have drafted. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Marine Navigation (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Friday 1st February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, invites the Government to take a particular action before the House goes into Committee. It may be unusual, but it is order. I must confess that I am surprised by the move by the noble Lord to delay debating the Bill today. It was, after all, his express wish at Second Reading, only a fortnight ago, that the Bill reach the statute book. He said:

“I wish the Bill well. I hope that we can get it to Royal Assent without too many delays”.—[Official Report, 18/1/2013; col. 911.]

I have no problem with the noble Lord wanting to debate the Bill properly, but he knows that any amendment is fatal to nearly all Private Members’ Bills. He must be aware that if the Bill is to achieve Royal Assent as he desires, it is necessary for this House to debate it today. A week’s delay is not available. I, too, hope that the Bill will achieve Royal Assent—it contains measures that our valuable maritime industry has been seeking for many years—but if it does not, I would rather that it fell as a result of the clear will of this House rather than of a move to delay discussion.

The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, asked me about legal advice. I assure the House that my department has plenty of lawyers who delight in constraining me in what I can say to your Lordships. Noble Lords will know that it is a long-standing convention that Ministers do not release legal advice. Furthermore, the noble Lord has indicated his concerns about the legality and desirability of Clause 2. I understand that he is very content with the other clauses. That being the case, it might have been more appropriate to table an amendment to provide that Clause 2 can be commenced only after the report that he desires has been published. I have certainly tabled many such amendments in my time.

Having said that, I understand the noble Lord’s desire to ensure that the Bill does not conflict with international agreements that this country has entered into freely. I am happy to give the assurance today that nothing in the Bill conflicts with the Standards for Training, Certification and Watchkeeping, the STCW. I am not convinced that a report stating the same would have any more effect than me, as a Minister of the Crown, doing so at the Dispatch Box.

A ship must comply with the applicable requirements of the code; there is no doubt about that. On some ships, the crew structure will permit another deck officer to act as pilot, using their pilotage exemption certificate, while remaining fully compliant with the code. The noble Lord refers to junior ratings being allowed to hold pilotage exemption certificates if this Bill passes. I do not think it right that I should pre-empt discussion on Clause 2, which I hope that we can have today, but I will say now that this clause does not propose such a thing. I may be able to satisfy the noble and reverend Lord, Lord Eames, at this point. A junior rating is not a deck officer, though a rating might,

“also help deck officers with navigational and watch duties, and anchor the ship when coming into port”,

to quote the National Careers Service.

What we envisage, and what I believe that the industry understands by the term “deck officer” is much more substantial. A deck officer capable of satisfying the pilotage exemption certificate requirements will have had several years of experience at sea and have responsibility for navigation of the ship, which is somewhat more advanced than a junior rating.

I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment and enable us to move on and use the time that we have for important Committee debates which we need to have before the House can be sure that the legislation is sound.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I tabled the amendment on Wednesday evening because I still had not received a copy of the letter from Stephen Hammond MP, which I felt that we needed. The letter arrived 12 hours later, perhaps because I tabled the amendment—I do not know. I could have said that we should delay discussion from Clause 2, but I took advice from the Clerks and this is the amendment that I tabled.

Some noble Lords have probably strayed into discussions on the clause stand part debate. The issue over which I raised this was that of the two potentially different definitions of who can have a PEC. The Minister did not answer, so I suppose that we can all expect lots of court appearances, as the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, suggested. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for the very full answers that he gave. Many of them were very helpful, but one thing that was conspicuously missing was that although there was a lot of talk about training, there was not so much about management responsibility. The key to a successful outcome is to ensure that PEC holders have experience of being in a senior management position on a ship.

As an example, many times in the course of this debate and others we have talked about a famous dredging company in the Thames Estuary. I will quote briefly from a letter that I, and perhaps others, have received from a pilot about this. He says that he knows the company and its working pattern well. He writes:

“The Master likes to do dredging at sea and the Chief Officer normally does discharge of aggregate”

—on the quay. He continues:

“They want the Junior Officer to pilot and navigate in between. I asked one of the Captains of this company why the Junior Officer couldn’t do the discharge or the dredging at sea. Both operations he would be qualified for. The answer was because he/she is not trusted in those roles”.

This is from the captain of one of the ships. If he is not trusted to do the discharge at a quay, or to dredge in the sea, it is a bit odd to think that he ought to be capable of having a pilotage exemption certificate to be able to pilot the ship up and around the Thames. We all remember what happened when the “Bowbelle” and the “Marchioness” had a collision.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if the officer was not trustworthy, the competent harbour authority would not grant him a PEC.

[Lord Berkeley]

Let us hope so. If it was the Port of London Authority, I am sure that that would be the case. I have more doubts about other authorities. There is also the question of ensuring that we do not confuse junior officers with junior ratings, as there were one or two comments about that.

However, we have had a good debate. I would have liked the Minister to have given a definition on the record that the deck officer should be a person who is,

“engaged on board at Management level holding an STCW A-11/2 Certificate of Competency”,

or other appropriate qualification, which would have covered the inland waterways issue. But he will not give that, and at this time of day it is not really appropriate to seek the opinion of the House, because we would never get home tonight. So I leave it at that.

Helicopter Flights: Central London

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree with everything that my noble friend has said. In addition, I point out that the Civil Aviation Authority considered the operation of helicopters over London in 2005, and we are currently operating under the regime it recommended.

[Lord Berkeley]

Are not these helicopters known to everyone as being incredibly noisy? Surely, apart from the police and health helicopters, there is no argument for having a commercial heliport in central London. There is a perfectly good public transport service within London. Cannot these very important people use airports instead?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are not aware of any horrendous problem with helicopter noise, although I have answered an Oral Question in your Lordships’ House about it. The number of helicopter flights over London has almost halved over the past few years, and the level of noise disturbance has reduced accordingly—although, of course, the economic situation may be impacting on that. It is also clear that helicopters benefit the city both by supporting the economy and by providing essential support to the emergency services.

Cycling: Infrastructure

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of the Highways Agency’s budget is allocated to infrastructure for cycling.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Highways Agency works with cycling organisations to provide parallel routes, safe access and crossing points to the strategic route network. These schemes are funded within the agency’s portfolio of small improvement schemes, on which the expenditure is approximately £50 million each year across the portfolio. Provision for cyclists is also a consideration of the agency’s major schemes. The specific investment relating to cyclists is therefore difficult to disaggregate.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer and I congratulate the Government and TfL on the investment they have recently announced for cycling infrastructure. However, does he agree that possibly there is a need to go further? There is a poll in the Times today, coincidentally, which shows that 25% of the respondents think that segregated cycle lanes would make people cycle more. It also shows that only 2% of journeys in this country are by cycle compared with a figure of about 25% to 35% in Belgium, Holland and Denmark. Does he agree that it is time to look at reallocating space on the roads for cycles and providing much greater investment alongside that?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the views of respondents to any survey are obviously important. We should not disregard them. We should take account of them. Segregation has its benefits because you will be able to reduce the number of accidents far more effectively. However, there is the issue of economic use of the road space and the business case if you want such a scheme. In London, these are matters for Transport for London.

British Transport Police

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right in his analysis of the problem. Unfortunately, we cannot make any suitable amendment to current legislation going through your Lordships’ House. I am advised that other routes, such as a regulatory reform order, are not suitable, so we will have to wait for a suitable slot in the primary legislation. However, the noble Lord’s point about legal uncertainties is extremely important.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, how many BTP officers carry firearms? As my noble friend said, it seems odd that they do not have the same legal position as other police officers around the country who are able to carry firearms. What is the legal position of BTP officers who carry firearms? Are they at risk on a personal level in a way that the other police officers are not?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question, we are talking about only 53 police officers, so the bureaucracy load is manageable, although extremely inconvenient. The weakness in the legislation on the protection of officers who are involved in an incident, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, is an extremely important point.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

I am sure that the whole House will not be surprised to hear that I am very pleased at my grandfather’s achievements. However, there is a difficulty in having one nationalised industry: it is very difficult to determine the appropriate salary for a train driver when you have only one employer. We have several employers of train drivers and our experience is that train drivers are finding out who is the best employer, either in terms of salary or, as pointed out by the noble Countess, in relation to other terms and conditions.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, do the Government have enough staff in the Department for Transport to micromanage all these franchises, to ensure that each driver is paid the right amount and that there are enough drivers, and then to impose the penalties if they fail? After the west coast main line franchise, possibly it should be recruiting another 50% of its civil servants.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my department does not have enough staff to micromanage the franchise. We have no intention of doing that. We receive reports on the cancellations but we do not need to micromanage.

Isles of Scilly: Helicopter Services

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure a lifeline passenger service to the Isles of Scilly following the closure of the helicopter service on 1 November 2012.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates the ferry and fixed-wing services, has already announced plans to increase those services to meet some of the passenger demand following the closure of the helicopter service. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Norman Baker, has recently met, and is due to meet again, delegations including the Isles of Scilly Council to discuss transportation to and from the Isles of Scilly.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply because it marks some progress, even if the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company is now a monopoly supplier of transport services. Is he aware that during the five months between now and the beginning of next April, there will be only a small fixed-wing service of aeroplanes that are susceptible to wind and fog— for example, the service did not run yesterday? If the evidence of last winter is taken into account, the service would not run for 22 days over five months. With a population of around 2,000 people earning the fourth lowest wages in the UK and a reliance on tourism, those who use the aeroplane service have to pay £140 return. Does the noble Earl agree that in Scotland, most of the islands have both air and ferry services as lifeline services, and the fare for the equivalent distance is £25 return? Will the Government now look at a lifeline service for the Scilly Isles so as to take this forward and make the service comparable with that in Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord used the word “monopoly”, which implies that there can be only one operator. It is a free market and other operators can come in. We need to see how the market develops. The noble Lord also talked about the “lifeline”, which is a term generally used to describe vital transport connections between mainland and island communities. However, it carries no formal or legal status. The Government recognise that many people regard maritime passenger and freight services to the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline, and that is why we have said that we are committed to ensuring that these continue.

Crime: Drink-driving

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have carefully considered this issue, and we have considered and reported back on the North report. The difficulty is that if we lower the limit to 50 milligrams, we would divert resources away from the cohort of drivers who ignore the law and drive quite often at double the legal limit. The police would be tied up with dealing with these low-level offenders and would not be dealing with the much higher-risk offenders.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is not the real argument that the Minister is putting forward that any reduction in the level to that of the rest of Europe goes against the total anti-Europe policy that we see across so many fronts, rather than trying to save a lot of lives on the roads by lowering the limit?

[Earl Attlee]

No, my Lords. We act on good advice from our officials. It is important to understand—

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 2nd July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Berkeley]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I, too, was confused. I suppose there could be competition with baggage handling taxi services. The heart of an airport is, after all, the runways. Is it envisaged that there is competition between two runways? If it is, that is remarkably stupid. One never knows, and it will be interesting to hear what is subject to competition in this clause and what is definitely not, within a particular airport.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the explanation for the rationale behind this amendment. I am afraid that I must oppose it, for two reasons. The first is substantive and the second is technical.

The amendment would oblige the regulator to review its market power determinations at such intervals as it considers appropriate. Clause 7 provides that a market power determination is a determination by the CAA that an airport operator does or does not meet the market power test in relation to an airport area. Where it does, the operator is subject to economic regulation under the Bill. Where it does not, it is not subject to economic regulation.

Let me now turn to my reasons for opposing this probing amendment. The substantive reason is that the amendment is unnecessary. Clause 7(1) expressly empowers the CAA to make a market power determination,

“whenever it considers it appropriate to do so”.

I am mindful of the underlying purpose of Part 1 of the Bill which is broadly to further the interests of end users by regulating airport operators where necessary. I note also the CAA’s subordinate duty at Clause 1(4)(b) to have regard to the principle that,

“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.

In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, it is implicit that where changes in circumstances lead the CAA to believe that there are reasonable grounds to believe an operator presently subject to regulation should cease to be regulated, or vice versa, then it would investigate further. If appropriate, it would then conduct a full market power determination. I am reinforced in my view because Clause 7(2) obliges the CAA to make a market power determination in certain circumstances. Against this background, the noble Lord’s amendment adds little to the Bill

There is a further technical difficulty with the amendment, which I accept is a probing one. It is not wholly clear what is meant by a “review” of a market power determination. Presumably it is something short of conducting a full market power determination. Perhaps it may involve a consideration of whether the underlying circumstances have changed. However, no further provision is made to publish the results of the review or to take action in the light of its conclusions. In short, neither the purpose nor the effect of undertaking a review is made clear in the amendment.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about competition between different facilities in an airport. The recommendation was made by the Competition Commission; we are implementing it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if they were under separate management there could be a competition situation. Under the current legislation, one simply cannot regulate because it does not provide for competition within one airport. Therefore, we are future-proofing the legislation.

The CAA’s functions under Chapter 1 comprise, broadly, deciding whether an airport operator should be subject to regulation—and if it should, regulating it accordingly. Clause 1(1) requires the CAA to carry out its functions under Chapter 1 in order to further the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport services. Under Clause 1(2) the CAA is required to promote competition when doing so, but only where it is appropriate to its carrying out its functions under Chapter 1. This is set out in Clause 1(2).

The concept of competition in provision captures competition in the provision of airport operational services between all airports, regulated and non-regulated, and competition in airport operational services within airports—for example, competition between terminals. However, the CAA must promote competition only where appropriate. It would not be appropriate to promote competition where the CAA was not carrying out its duty under Clause 1(1)—specifically, where promoting competition does not further the interests of users of air transport services in the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operational services.

[Lord Berkeley]

Perhaps I might seek confirmation of what the Minister said to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. Will he confirm that Clause 7(4) applies to airports where the number of passenger movements exceeds 5 million—I refer to a Written Answer of 20 June to the noble Lord, Lord Laird—and that therefore Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton would all be covered by the clause?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the large airport test certainly applies in Clause 7(2), which refers to areas located in large airports. It goes on to define a large airport. I suspect that the CAA can make a determination on any other airport at a later stage if it becomes apparent that it might be in need of regulation and meets the tests in the Bill. Therefore, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I shall expand a little on the comments of my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham. A question needs to be asked: who will benefit from these three clauses? Will the passengers benefit? In my experience, when I want to go from A to B by air, I go to a website and look at the different airlines on different routes. Let us consider Stansted, for a change; we keep on talking about Heathrow. We are told that Stansted has lots of capacity. It has one terminal and one or two satellites from where the lower-cost airlines operate, and they make you walk a hundred miles to compensate you, presumably for paying lower landing fees. I suppose that those satellites, with a little engineering work, could be converted into a separate terminal, but how will the passengers benefit? When you book with an airline, you do so by considering price, timing or convenience. If you are going to book with easyJet to go to Dublin, for example, you do not have a choice of which part of the terminal, or which terminal, the plane will arrive at after landing. You are told where it will be. The passengers do not, therefore, have any choice over which terminal they can go to. They choose the airline and the airline tells you where you are going to end up.

I still cannot see who is going to benefit from these clauses. The airlines will not benefit, I imagine. Some of them pay lower landing charges than others and, as a result, are told to use a particular terminal—either close by or far away from convenient public transport and other facilities. You do not book with an airline because there is a better class of McDonald’s or a restaurant in some terminals. Are the airport operators going to benefit? I cannot see how. It will cost more, as my noble friend said. The suppliers will not get as big a volume of trade as they would if they were supplying a whole terminal. You could argue that they or someone might benefit from competition. And the passengers? I would be pleased to hear from the Minister about how they would benefit from these clauses.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions but I am afraid that I must oppose the amendment and support the Question that these important clauses stand part of the Bill.

Inter-terminal competition may be some time off and the Bill makes no provisions about timing. However, it is important that we future-proof the legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, talked about disruption and consternation. Clearly, this would not be in the interests of passengers, and the CAA would therefore not allow such competition because it would be in conflict with its primary duty to the passengers and owners of cargo.

The noble Lord said that different airlines have different needs. He is, of course, quite right. Some airlines want to run a premium service and others want to be no-frills. However, the CAA will have to strike the balance between those differing requirements as well as replicate the effect of competition.

The Bill does not, in general, require inter-terminal competition but does accommodate the possibility. Promoting competition between terminals under the Bill would not happen if the cost implications of doing so meant that it would not benefit the passengers, again under the CAA’s primary duty. In the circumstances postulated, there is no question that the CAA would seek to require inter-terminal competition. If, however, an airport chose, say, to lease a terminal to a third party, the Bill would remain in service, and I will come back to that in a moment.

Clause 10 empowers the CAA to determine, by applying the criteria set out in Clause 9, including in cases where one or more separate entities have some form of management control over that area. Clause 11 contains provisions for the publication of operator determinations made under Clause 10 by the CAA. Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make operator determination in advance, on the basis of circumstances that may not yet have arisen.

The amendments to Clause 12 seek to remove the CAA’s powers to carry out an advance operator determination. However, before I get on to why the amendments are not desirable, I wish to reassure your Lordships on why “standard” operator determinations under Clauses 9, 10 and 11 are a necessary part of the legislation. These clauses are important for regulatory certainty, enabling a person to know whether they are the operator of an airport area for the purposes of Part 1. Otherwise, in difficult cases it will be uncertain who the operator is and who is not, and therefore who is and who is not subject to economic regulation. This means that they cannot be clear as to their legal obligations, and neither they nor their financial backers can know with certainty whether they will be subject to economic regulation.

The clause is not focused solely on the possible future scenario where intra-airport competition can be introduced. For example, it could apply where a whole airport was leased and some management functions were split between lessor and lessee. However, noble Lords have rightly pointed out that these clauses are important for ensuring that the Bill allows for the regulatory regime to work in a scenario where there are multiple operators of different airport areas at one airport—in other words, where there is inter-terminal competition. Inter-terminal competition is more likely to lead to more complex ownership arrangements.

I have already mentioned that it was a recommendation of the Competition Commission in its BAA Airports Market Investigation report of 2008 to allow for the regulatory regime to function where inter-terminal competition is present. The present legislation, the Airports Act 1986, does not allow for this possibility. If we, the Government, had not made these provisions, no doubt noble Lords would suggest that we should have done so, praying in aid the Competition Commission’s recommendations. It is important to note that these clauses do not empower the CAA to introduce inter-terminal competition; they merely ensure that if inter-terminal competition becomes a reality, the regulatory regime can accommodate the scenario.

Clause 10 empowers the CAA to make binding operator determinations on the basis of the circumstances at the time the determination is made. However, this is considered insufficient where a person wants to know whether they will comprise the “operator” in the event that they take some control over an airport area. Against this background, to allow for greater regulatory and commercial certainty, Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make advance determinations—that is, determinations on the basis of circumstances that have not yet arisen. This would include a determination that, if a lease were executed with specified terms, the lessee would or would not comprise the operator.

The first amendment would deprive the CAA of the power to make an advance operator determination. The Government cannot agree to this because it would increase regulatory uncertainty and possibly stultify commercial transactions. I therefore urge noble Lords to withdraw their opposition to the clauses.

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[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, following the comment of my noble friend Lord Soley about immigration, by coincidence I have in the Crime and Courts Bill an amendment about the immigration service which may be discussed later tonight. The service is woefully inadequate, as my noble friend said. The delays are reflecting very badly on the country.

Passenger satisfaction should be measured in respect of immigration delays as well as many other things, because they are quite significant. My suggestion that I shall probably put tonight is that the immigration service should be given targets. I am not sure that this Government like targets but there might be a target for people with EU passports to wait for not more than 10 minutes, and for those from third countries to wait for not more than half an hour. We can debate what the targets should be. The crucial thing is that the immigration service should be required to pay some kind of compensation to the airlines if they exceed those targets, unless there is an emergency or something like that.

As several noble Lords have said, the key is to have this information. I would much rather see it come from the licence holder than from the immigration service, which might be tempted to massage the figures slightly. My noble friend Lord Davies can think about whether it should go in as a further amendment on Report, but we ought to measure this matter along with some of these other issues to get independent information on passenger satisfaction regarding everything they see when they arrive at or leave an airport.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware that similar amendments were tabled in the Committee and Report stages in the House of Commons. These amendments provide us with a welcome opportunity to return to some important issues for passengers.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about comparisons with the bus and rail industry arrangements. There is no reason, however, why the CAA cannot look at those rules and regulations when devising licence conditions and learn from what happens in another industry. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about first impressions. They do matter and I have been impressed with the work going on at Gatwick to improve the appearance of the airport and the way it works.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, touched on the issue of a market survey and said that passenger satisfaction is at the core of what we are trying to do. It is, but it is the duty of the CAA to achieve the desirable outcomes by means of the licence conditions.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about immigration issues, as did other noble Lords. A few years ago, I declined to visit the United States, even at public expense, because, frankly, I thought that the immigration arrangements there were so awful that I did not want to do it. I just said, “No, I will stay here and be with your Lordships”.

[Lord Berkeley]

I congratulate the noble Lord. That was very brave.

[Earl Attlee]

We will see what happens in the next reshuffle.

My honourable friend the Immigration Minister is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the border force has responded to recent problems in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the border force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and places, creating a new central control room for the border force at Heathrow that uses mobile teams for rapid deployment, and implementing new rostering and shift patterns. The border force is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows, using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.

There can be no doubt that passengers want efficient baggage-handling services when they travel by air. The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. It is clear that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means of dealing with passenger welfare during disruption of services. While I can therefore understand and agree with the sentiment behind these amendments and what noble Lords have said, I cannot recommend accepting them into the Bill. The text of the Bill already provides the most effective means of protecting passenger interests in relation to the matters raised.

Clause 18 and the licensing regime as a whole will give the CAA the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports with substantial market power. This flexibility is an important means of minimising the distortions associated with regulatory intervention and ensuring that action taken by the CAA is proportionate. However, we also believe that giving the independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion in deciding the content of the licence is the most effective way to protect the interests of present and future passengers. If Parliament chooses to use this legislation to hard-code certain points in licences, it would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. As the Minister of State said in Committee in the House of Commons, amendments such as these would make the licence system unbalanced because passengers care about a whole range of different issues. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing concerns of passengers. In 2005, who would have thought that volcanic ash would have been a major problem later on?

If we were to adopt these amendments, they would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in the future. This danger was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. Your Lordships can be very confident that the CAA will already use the new licensing powers proposed in the Bill to focus on, for example, operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption—not least because of the CAA’s Clause 1 duties, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, recognised. And why it would it not do so?

As we have discussed in Committee, in response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA published an indicative licence in January to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill, and a copy has been sent to the House of Commons Library. At the request of the Department for Transport, the draft licence includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned disruption due to winter. When I visited Gatwick Airport before the most recent winter and saw all the new equipment in place, I was absolutely confident that the winter would be very mild.

It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder will then be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan. The CAA sought initial views from industry in drafting the indicative licence. However, since Parliament has not yet concluded its consideration of the Bill, the CAA has not yet started to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation.

If the system proposed in the Bill is implemented, the CAA will consider the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in a licence for operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare. The CAA expects that activities that might be expected to be part of the new licence regime would include taking into account other obligations on service quality standards, and the success of codes of conduct and voluntary arrangements being adopted by industry. Against this background we believe that putting specific requirements in the Bill on issues such as baggage handling and operational resilience could prove to be a disproportionate response that would place an unnecessary restriction on the CAA’s flexibility to develop proportionate and effective ways to address passenger concerns—and might even lead it to address the wrong ones.

In summary, the Bill provides the CAA—the body with the relevant operational expertise—after appropriate consultation, with the flexibility to determine appropriate and effective licence conditions. The amendments in this group could undermine our goal of giving the specialist regulator a flexible toolkit to protect the passenger. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Berkeley]

Does my noble friend agree that the key to the amendment is the word, “buying”. There is nothing to stop the provision of different queues for first-class passengers or others at check-in or security. The question is: have they paid extra to go through that facility rather than for the facilities on the flight?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware that a similarly worded amendment was tabled in Committee in the House of Commons, but that related to Clause 83, on provision of:

“Information for the benefit of users of air transport services”.

The stated aim of that amendment was to close a perceived gap in the information that will be published under that clause on what passengers can expect to experience when departing or arriving at an airport, especially in relation to how long they should expect to wait to have their passport checked. The Government supported the broad intention of that amendment. Giving consumers more information on the quality of service provided by airports and airlines will help to maximise the benefits that markets deliver to passengers. However, the Minister of State ultimately resisted the amendment on the basis that the Bill already enables the CAA to require the collection and publication of information on check-in, baggage handling and security queues. He further explained that the UK border force, the authority responsible for border controls relating to arriving and departing passengers and goods, is responsible to Ministers and Parliament, and said that this is a more effective and appropriate means to hold the UK border force to account than giving the CAA power to oversee its activities.

The amendment today goes further than the previous one by seeking to prevent users from buying preferential access to check-in, security, immigration control and baggage reclaim processes. In considering the amendment, the Committee should note the distinction between check-in and baggage reclaim processes, and aviation security and border-control processes—the latter being subject to exacting standards enshrined in legislation. For example, airports are required, pursuant to international standards and EU and domestic regulatory requirements, to ensure that all passengers undergo security screening to specified levels. This is subject to monitoring and enforcement through security inspections and tests by the regulator. Legislation also requires full travel document checks to be conducted on all passengers, including all British citizens, arriving at the UK border. As the Minister of State made clear in the House of Commons, the security of our borders and the checks that need to be undertaken to protect us from those who would enter our country to do us harm are treated with paramount importance.

I am aware that the BAA runs a VIP suite scheme at Heathrow. The UK border force does not charge BAA or the VIPs any money for the provision of this service, nor does the BAA cover any border force costs. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, with full details of the number of years that these arrangements have been in place. As long as standards of security and immigration are maintained at all times and in respect of all passengers, the Government do not wish to prevent the market offering access to these services, which are tailored to the needs of passengers. However, there is no question of reduced security, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Davies.

Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that a number of airlines offer faster check-in services to premium travellers who are willing to pay a premium for the service. The Government do not wish to prevent passengers benefiting from such products. If the concern is that the purchase of preferential access to check-in or baggage control processes would be an impediment to competition, the Bill already provides the CAA with the necessary powers to address that.

In summary, aviation security and immigration processes at UK airports must comply with exacting standards that are enshrined in legislation. There is no scope for passengers to pay to avoid these processes. The Government believe that the amendment goes too far in attempting to prevent the market offering access to these and other services that are tailored to the specific needs of users. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing the amendment.

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[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and others on this amendment. An appeal may be very unlikely but, as other noble Lords have said, the consequences would be bad. I cannot see how anyone appealing under Clauses 24 and 25 would find it relevant to question the financing of BAA—or any other operator, for that matter. That would seem to have nothing to do with any appeal but one occasionally gets vexatious appeals. Given the size of the sums and the disaster that would ensue if investments did not go ahead because the bankers became uncertain about an appeal, this would seem to be an extremely sensible set of amendments. I, too, shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in response.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the points that have been raised. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin pointed out, I have met BAA to discuss this issue in some detail, and since that meeting I have considered its concerns.

First, I assure the Committee that the Government remain of the opinion that there are good reasons to include derogations to financial resilience licence conditions where these would otherwise cut across existing financing arrangements. The CAA, which will be issuing the first airport licences, has also confirmed that it supports the broad principle that ring-fencing licence conditions, which does not cut across existing financial arrangements, could bring benefits to users.

The practical effect of the amendment would appear to shut out an airline’s right of appeal in respect of an entire licence condition, even if only a small part of it contained an exception relating to financial arrangements. Therefore, the scope of the amendment appears to be wider than the reason advanced for its inclusion. None the less, it is a perfectly good amendment for us to debate. The Government remain of the opinion—

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, just in case the issue about the Competition Commission comes up again during our debate today, I would like to clarify what I said in response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the CC having regard to the CAA’s general duty. As an appeal body, the CC must have the flexibility to decide an appeal justly and according to law. A duty to “have regard to” is not the same as a case where the CC must apply exactly the same duty as the CAA, but the primary duty will have great weight in the CC’s decision. It seems very unlikely, having regard to the constrained grounds under which an appeal may be made—an error of law, fact and so forth—that the CC would allow an appeal that was inimical to passengers’ interests.

Flexibility arises from Clause 1(5). Where there is conflict between the interests of different classes of passengers, the CAA is generally free to choose whose interests it prefers. The CC would also have regard to this provision. I will write to noble Lords so that any interested parties can pick up this clarification.

I welcome this debate about the slots and thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for explaining his concerns. I also pay tribute to the work that the noble Lord has done not just in Westminster but in Brussels. It is an object lesson in how to achieve these objectives. The new clause is intended to allow the CAA to take actions to help protect the provision of regional air services to congested London airports, such as directing airports to ring-fence slots for regional services or structure their charges so as to favour regional services.

The Government take the matter of regional connectivity very seriously. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned the problems of regional airports, for example some of those in Scotland. As I said before, we recognise the vital contribution that regional airports make to local economies, and that high-quality regional connectivity is hugely important. For remoter areas of the UK, regional air services are not a luxury but a vital means of connectivity. As the Committee will be aware, and as I confirmed at the first Grand Committee sitting, European Union regulations govern the allocation, transfer and exchange of slots at Heathrow and other slot co-ordinated airports in the UK.

EU slot regulations follow the Worldwide Slot Guidelines determined by the International Air Transport Association, reflecting the fact that commercial aviation is a global business. Council Regulation (EEC) No 95/93 on common rules for the allocation of slots at community airports provides common rules throughout Europe for slot allocation. These are aimed at providing airlines with fair and equal access to airports across the EU through independent and transparent slot allocation procedures. Members are required to ensure that independent airport slot co-ordinators are appointed to manage slot allocation at airports where capacity problems occur.

EU law does not allow either the Government or the CAA to have any role in slot allocation apart from the limited exception provided by the public service obligation procedure. EC Regulation No 1008/2008 allows member states to impose public service obligations to protect air services to airports serving a peripheral or development region or on thin routes to any airport on its territory where such a route is considered vital for the economic and social development of the region.

It would be open to regional bodies—for example, local enterprise partnerships and the devolved Administrations—to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a PSO on an air route if they feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EC regulation. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a relevant London airport. However, one of the important principles of the PSOs is that they can be imposed only when it is necessary to ensure adequate services between two cities or regions, rather than for the purposes of linking individual airports—a point recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. Importantly, that means that when judging whether a region has adequate services to London, it will be necessary to take into account the level and nature of services to all five of London’s main airports, as well as surface transport connections.

Unfortunately, I have to repeat what I said before: there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports. Under European law, the potential for the ring-fencing of slots at Heathrow to protect regional services is to be dealt with by the rules on PSOs only. Therefore, any proposals to override the strict criteria and processes by which European Governments can intervene in route operations would be incompatible with EU law. I think the noble Lord understands that but still seeks a solution.

[Lord Berkeley]

On the basis of the noble Earl’s argument, it would seem that there can be no grounds for having a third runway at Heathrow until all four of the other airports that he just mentioned are full.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is not a debate about the third runway. Whether we have a third runway at Heathrow is not relevant. If we got a situation in which we had a third runway and then ran out of capacity at Heathrow, we would still have the same problem.

In addition, the application of traffic distribution rules—the TDRs—is also governed by EU law, which prohibits the implementation of discriminatory rules, including on geographical grounds. As a result, the introduction of TDRs to protect particular regional air services is not an option as it would also be incompatible with EU law. If the amendment seeks to empower the CAA to give a direction to the airport to structure its charges so as to discount airport usage for regional services, I regret that this would not be possible for a number of reasons. If it is not in the interests of users of air transport services on the grounds of the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services, it would not be consistent with the primary duty for the CAA to give such a direction.

In addition, EU directive 2009/12/EC on airport charges introduced common principles on the levying of airport charges at community airports above a certain size to ensure transparency and consultation. That directive was transposed into UK law through the Airport Charges Regulations 2011. Airport charges must not discriminate between users but charges can vary in the interests of the public and in the general interest, provided the reasons are relevant, objective and transparent. The CAA has an enforcement role regarding the Airport Charges Regulations, so it would not be consistent for it to direct on the structure of airport charges. However, as your Lordships are aware from the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the EU slot regulations are in the process of being reformed in Europe at present. The European Commission’s “Better Airports” package includes proposals to amend the EU slot regulations, which provides an opportunity for the UK to highlight this issue with the European Commission and to explore the inclusion of measures to help secure the ongoing provision of air services between UK regions and congested London airports.

I fully understand the concerns behind the noble Lord’s proposed new clause, but I am unable to support it for the reasons given. Nevertheless, I assure the Committee that the Government are committed to supporting regional airports and regional connectivity. We will also consult on a new aviation policy framework, which will include a focus on regional airports. We will also issue a call for evidence on maintaining the UK’s international connectivity. I would welcome the contribution of the noble Lords and their constituents to that debate and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes very good points, and they are the ones put to the Permanent Secretary at the department. However, I have to accept the advice that I am given.

[Lord Berkeley]

How can the department consult with outside bodies if it does not meet any outside bodies?

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[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Worthington said in her opening remarks, it is useful to reflect on some of the industries which are regulated in this respect and to reflect that these industries have, for their own rights and reasons and in order to comply with the regulator’s duty, made big improvements in the areas of emissions, noise, water, energy and construction. The rail industry has been required to reduce its diesel emissions, as has the road sector. I am not sure that it will be quite as easy to persuade some ship owners to change their fuel but the European Commission is intent on doing so. I am sure that it will happen one day and that it will be either voluntary or forced upon them. As my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said, the air industry has made significant improvements.

It would be odd if the Bill did not contain a requirement or duty on the CAA to take into account environmental matters. That does not mean that the air industry is particularly bad at doing so but there is evidence from other industries that, because of these regulatory duties, they probably try a little harder and in a way that they would not do otherwise.

I am inclined to support Amendment 69 but it is very important that we include something here so that there is commonality with some of the other regulators’ duties to consider environmental issues, and to encourage airports and the airline industry to go that little bit further.

Many noble Lords will recall the debates when the third runway was last on the agenda about the emissions from Heathrow and whether they were over the limit. Were they caused by emissions from the M4 running past on the north side or from the M25? There were many debates—I do not want to go into who was right and who was wrong—and one solution was to put the M4 in a tunnel. I cannot see the point of that because emissions will still take place in a tunnel and will have to come out somewhere. They might come out further away but, to me, that would be cheating. Again, this concerns the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, of including surface access, which I am sure will come up again.

However, matters have improved since then in the quality of emissions from the air and road industries. It is essential that something along the lines of the amendments is included in the Bill.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the issue of aviation and the environment was raised by several noble Lords during Second Reading. I am pleased to return to the matter again and to give further consideration to this important subject. I have not tabled a government amendment because I am reluctant to pre-empt the Committee’s consideration of this topic. However, I hope that when we have finished the Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will not be disappointed.

The noble Baroness almost fell into the trap of being political. She will know that we take environmental issues very seriously indeed and that that is why the coalition Government will not agree to a third runway at Heathrow. It is clearly for environmental reasons, particularly noise. This was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will state what her party’s policy is with regard to the third runway at Heathrow. Does she or does she not support it? I can assure your Lordships that I have listened to the points raised today and that I shall carefully read Hansard.

The point was raised about the drafting of the amendment. Yes, Amendment 13A was substituted for Amendment 12 on the Marshalled List.

Many noble Lords asked why other economic regulators have an environmental duty but not the CAA. Other economic regulators apply economic regulation across most or all of their respective industries, but the CAA regulates only the three London airports, as observed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. Why should Manchester not be subject to environmental regulation while Gatwick is? If the CAA had an environmental duty, no noble Lord has explained to me, by way of example, what it would do with it that is not already done by some other means.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the publication requirements in Clause 84. We are not quite there yet but I will write to my noble friend and, if necessary, he can table an amendment to Clause 84.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the Committee that I have a very well thought-out speech. I believe that the upcoming aviation policy framework, due to be adopted by March 2013, represents a more proportionate and effective way for the Government to address the environmental impacts across the aviation sector as a whole. As I have said, this Government take seriously the environmental impacts of all airports. With regard to the other amendments, several of these have been extensively debated in the other place, and the Government’s position on these remains unchanged.

First, I turn to Amendment 4. As your Lordships will be aware, the previous Government decided to include a similar duty to that contained in Amendment 10. However, in practice the supplementary duty would have no substance, so the Secretary of State decided in July 2010 to omit it. This is because the duty as drafted would appear to require the CAA, in discharging its primary duty, to take account of the licence holder’s obligation to comply with planning obligations. It is not for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to enforce planning law through licence conditions. In so far as a licence condition purported to require the licence holder to breach planning law or otherwise act in breach of planning law, it would appear to be unlawful. Regardless of whether the CAA had this explicit duty or not, the CAA will need to have proper regard to the airport’s obligation to comply with all applicable legal obligations, including planning law.

Amendment 6, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, covers climate change. While important, this is also unnecessary because other policies seek to achieve it. Separately, the Government have committed to producing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts. In addition, there are other policies, such as the European Union Emissions Trading System, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness when she touched on efficiency issues. Furthermore, this amendment would appear to go beyond airport economic regulation and it is unclear how the CAA would go about fulfilling this duty—a point I made earlier.

However, the Government have some sympathy with the thinking behind the remaining amendments—that is, Amendments 5, 7 and 13A. In particular, this debate allows us to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them. Without a doubt, this Government support the idea that airport operators—whether or not they are subject to economic regulation—should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This concern was frequently raised in the House of Commons. However, obligations should not be put on some airports but not others depending on their economic regulatory status.

Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover, through the regulatory settlements, costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes and be able to recover those costs. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would otherwise occur in a competitive market. Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in the passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be included in an airport’s regulatory settlement. This is a point on which more clarity could be provided in the Bill.

However, I am hesitant to accept these amendments today because I believe that it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. Furthermore, we need to ensure that the drafting does not have the capacity to create distorting effects by putting greater obligations on regulated airports relative to non-regulated airports. With the assurance that I will consider these matters in detail ahead of Report, I hope noble Lords will be willing to withdraw Amendment 4, and not press Amendments 6 and 69. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A—

[Lord Berkeley]

The Minister gave a very interesting speech and I congratulate him. He mentioned some or all environmental issues, but is that not moving into a rather dangerous area of lists and what goes into a list? Are you going to include bats but not tadpoles, or noise and things like that? I hope that he will take into account that it is very dangerous to produce lists of these things because you might leave things out or add things in that you subsequently do not want.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes a very good point, and I am sure that my officials will not let me go too far. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A in greater detail, with a view to returning to the matter on Report. I would find further meetings with noble Lords extremely valuable.

While I appreciate the spirit in which noble Lords have proposed these amendments today, as I have said, there are a few reasons why I am hesitant to accept them now. Interested parties have made it clear that the CAA should not be the environmental regulator. If such duties were to be imposed, I also believe it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. With the assurance that I will consider this matter in detail ahead of Report, I hope that the noble Baroness and other noble Lords will be able to withdraw and not to press their amendments.

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Earl Attlee: My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me a most ingenious question—which my officials and I will carefully study in Hansard—and if he has exposed a problem I will deal with it. However, I suspect that the advice from my officials is correct. For these reasons, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Berkeley]

Perhaps I may press the Minister a little more on the text in paragraph (b). On what basis does the CAA or the Secretary of State decide that action is needed? Surely they have to investigate before they can come to a conclusion. It seems a circular process.

[Earl Attlee]

Yes. However, we are talking about the principle of regulation that you do not do things that are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If there is not a problem, you leave it alone.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its mind to these matters and considers them, it will, prima facie, have complied with the obligation.

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[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord mentioned slots. These are regulated by the world slot guidelines and, in Europe, by the EU slot regulations. They are implemented by Airport Coordination Limited in the UK. The Government do not and cannot have a role in slot allocation.

[Lord Berkeley]

If there appears to be a dominant position in slots, does that come under the CAA or the Government? Is there any competition authority, or is it completely outside?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that is clearly a competition issue. I am not certain about it but I will write to the noble Lord.

Clause 5 defines what comprises a “dominant airport area” and a “dominant airport”. Under subsection (3), “airport area” means an area that consists of or forms part of an airport, including land and buildings. This provision is included to allow for the possibility of there being more than one operator at an individual airport. This could be the case if, for example, an airline acquired or leased a terminal building. As there can be more than one airport area at an airport, it follows that there can be more than one operator of an airport area at an airport.

Subsection (1) states that an airport area is dominant if the CAA has made a determination that the market power test is met in relation to the area and publishes a notice to that effect. Subsection (2) provides that an airport is dominant if all or part of its core area is a dominant area or part of a dominant area. Subsection (4) describes what comprises a core area. Broadly speaking, the core area includes runways and associated facilities, passenger terminals and cargo processing areas. It follows from that that non-core airport areas include car parks with pedestrian access to the terminal building, or the forecourt of a passage in the terminal, including pick-up and drop-off points. Therefore, if the only dominant airport area at airport X comprised the pick-up and drop-off points, airport X would not be a dominant airport because no part of the core area would comprise or be included in a dominant area. We should remember that the core area is the runways, associated facilities, passenger terminals and so on.

In such circumstances, no part of the airport could be subject to regulation. The underlying thinking is to ensure that no part of an airport should be subject to regulation unless some part of the core area is dominant. This construction is required to prevent unnecessary regulation where there is a problem only with peripheral areas. This distinction between core and non-core airport areas is necessary to ensure that the CAA regulates ancillary airport operation services only where some or all of the core area of the airport is dominant; it is unable to exercise regulatory control over core areas where only non-core areas are dominant.

Allowing for more than one operator at an airport differs from the approach used in the Airports Act 1986, which refers to an airport operator as,

“the person for the time being having the management of an airport, or, in relation to a particular airport, the management of that airport”.

That Act does not include provision about cases in which there is more than one operator of an airport. I make clear to the Committee that there are no powers in this clause to introduce intra-airport competition. Rather, the clause allows for the possibility that competition may be introduced within our airports—for example, inter-terminal competition. These provisions are included to keep open the option of competition within airports in future.

The Competition Commission has previously expressed interest in this concept and suggested that the,

“legislation … should allow for terminals to be developed or redeveloped and to be operated separately from runway facilities, where appropriate”.

While the Competition Commission has no present intention to impose such intra-airport competition, it is supportive of keeping the option open for the future. We therefore need to ensure that the regulatory framework is capable of operating in the event that inter-terminal competition becomes a feature of the UK airport sector. By including it in the Bill, we avoid the need for a future Government to have to return to Parliament for fresh primary legislation.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that very clear, if somewhat complex, explanation. If I have it right, a core area has to include the landing and take-off runways. I cannot see how more than one landing and take-off runway can be owned in one airport. If Heathrow separated the ownership of the north and south runways, then you would have some competition. However, if the core area has to include the landing and take-off, surely it would be impossible to have competition within any of the airports in the south-east. Have I misunderstood this? I would be grateful if the Minister could explain further.

[Earl Attlee]

I do not know whether or not the noble Lord has misunderstood. I suspect that he will have to read what I have said very carefully in order to understand it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 16 and 23. These three amendments are being taken together. Collectively, they will ensure that the CAA must have regard to the extensive guidance and advice published by the EU and UK competition authorities, for example the Office of Fair Trading.

We have been reflecting on comments made in the other place regarding the definition of “substantial market power” in the Bill. In particular, during debates in Committee in the other place, points were made that there could be some uncertainty regarding how the CAA might assess “substantial market power”. Although we believe that the definitions and specific meanings of the terms relating to market power that are used in the Bill are clear, we see merit in providing more clarity that the CAA must have regard to relevant competition guidance when carrying out the market power test.

Clause 6(1) states that market power test is met in relation to the airport area only if the CAA is satisfied that tests A, B and C are all met by the operator of that airport area. These tests are designed to ensure that operators of airport areas are subject to economic regulation only if under test A,

“the … operator has, or is likely to acquire, substantial market power in a market, either alone or taken with … other persons”,

under test B, general,

“competition law does not provide sufficient protection against the risk that the … operator may engage in conduct that amounts to an abuse of substantial market power”,

and under test C,

“the benefits of regulating the … operator … are likely to outweigh”

the costs.

On a previous amendment, I was asked what the market is. A market for airport operation services could be as narrow as the baggage handling services at Heathrow Terminal 5, or as wide as airport operation services at airports in London and the south-east. Other examples of airport operation services include the provision of airport facilities for car parking, facilities for shops and ground handling services.

The term “substantial market power” in test A is the term used in the current criteria that the Secretary of State applies when making designation decisions on whether an airport should be subject to price control. It is well understood and accepted in this context. The previous Government consulted on the wording of this limb and the other limbs of the test for whether an airport should be subject to economic regulation. In light of that consultation, we see no reason to change the wording. In carrying out test A, the CAA expects to follow the guidelines published by UK competition authorities—for example the Office of Fair Trading and the European Commission—for the assessment of market power. This amendment will put that beyond doubt. These are generic guidelines for use in any industry and provide a useful starting point for assessing the degree of competition faced by an airport. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an issue about being subject to price control, he is talking about baggage handling, car parking and things like that rather than the price of slots, which I think he said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his confirmation of that.

Transport: Isles of Scilly Ferry Link

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to create a lifeline passenger ferry link to the Isles of Scilly in line with the Scottish Government’s ferries policy.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware that passenger transport services to and from the mainland are regarded by residents of the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline. Ferry services, unlike most of those to the Scottish Islands, are able to operate commercially without subsidy and have done so for many years.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Perhaps he is not aware that Cornwall has the lowest GDP in the UK and has been awarded continuing convergence funding, and that it also has the fourth lowest average wage in the UK as well as very expensive housing.

His Answer is correct but the ferry only runs for seven months every year and the return fare is £90. This compares with Islay in Scotland where there are several ferries a day all the year round and the return fare is £12.50. Will he not take forward the report from the Council of the Isles of Scilly proposing an affordable lifeline service every day of the year and as a start allow the Council of the Isles of Scilly to use some of the ERDF money that is still outstanding for some key extensions before the deadline runs out?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware of the economic difficulties in Cornwall. As regards the comparison with the Scottish situation, it is difficult to make valid direct comparisons when the circumstances vary and the service is rather more complicated.

It is important to remember that transport links to the Scilly Isles are provided on a commercial basis, whether by sea or by air. Cornwall Council rules itself out of leading the smaller-scale infrastructure schemes so development work has been undertaken by the Council of the Isles of Scilly and Penzance town council. These involve improving provision for freight handling, extending the quay at St Mary’s and dredging at Penzance to accommodate a deeper-hulled vessel. The noble Lord is quite right that the ERDF funds are time-limited.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will go on to say that but what is particularly important is how the British Transport Police is funded. Secondly, unlike police forces in England and Wales, the British Transport Police has a national remit which includes jurisdiction across the railway network in England and Wales—and in Scotland, where policing in the latter is otherwise devolved to the Scottish Government. Thirdly, the British Transport Police is primarily contracted and funded by providers of railway services—the train operators and Network Rail—applying the “user pays” principle. Railway service providers are required to enter into a police services agreement with the British Transport Police as a condition of their licence to operate. Home Office forces have no such contractual or financial relationship with industry of day-to-day significance.

Taking into consideration these difficulties, a direction to the British Transport Police is so significant in regards to the potential impact on accountability, devolved policing arrangements with Scotland and arrangements with industry that it requires a Secretary of State to affirm that the issue is of sufficient national interest. I would also be very surprised if my right honourable friend the Secretary of State did not want to be aware that agreement could not be reached. It would be a very serious matter. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Berkeley]

While the noble Earl is quite right about the funding, if the direction to the British Transport Police involves large expenditure, will that come with a cheque or a commitment to pay the extra cost or is the industry to be expected to pay it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in all these arrangements assistance is quite often provided under the old pals Act and they do not worry about the expenditure. However, if specialist resources were required—perhaps a mobile crane or a digging machine—that extra expense would have to be recovered. It is inevitable that agreement would be reached. However, the British Transport Police would not have that sort of equipment available. It would normally be used to intercept someone on the transport network.

European Rail Market: EUC Report

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 14th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I start by congratulating the committee, which was so ably chaired by my noble friend Lady O’Cathain. The Government welcome the sub-committee’s thorough report on the European rail market and the role of the Channel Tunnel and have provided a full response. As ever, I am on a strict timetable.

We believe that a truly open, fair and liberalised market would increase competition in international passenger services across the EU. We support the Commission’s overall aim of clarifying and strengthening the regulatory framework for rail access through the first railway package recast. In particular, we endorse the need to ensure that there are adequately resourced and properly independent regulatory bodies in order to facilitate market entry and competition.

The Government recognise that the Channel Tunnel is a unique piece of international transport infrastructure and that it is in the country’s interests that it remains in operation. By virtue of the 1986 treaty of Canterbury and the ensuing concession agreement, the Government are directly concerned with the Channel Tunnel.

The UK strongly supports the growth of cross-Channel rail services. The provision of international services and their service patterns is a commercial matter for operators. In order for a train to transit the Channel Tunnel, the operator needs to comply with the relevant European, national and Channel Tunnel-specific requirements.

My noble friend Lady O’Cathain and other noble Lords talked about the proposed Deutsche Bahn service. DB applied to the intergovernmental commission in October 2011 to amend its Part B safety certificate, which covers management of safety issues, to include operation of passenger services through the tunnel. Since the intergovernmental commission has been unable to reach a decision, the application has now been referred to the British and French Governments for consideration. That process is ongoing. Deutsche Bahn will also need to obtain an interoperability authorisation to place its new trains into service in the tunnel. Although IGC officials from the UK and France have been working positively with Deutsche Bahn and Siemens to help them prepare the necessary dossier, as yet no formal submission for authorisation of new rolling stock has been made to the IGC by either Deutsche Bahn or Siemens.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, and, I think, another noble Lord asked me about the purchase of SeaFrance Ferries. It is a matter for the competition authorities, either DG Competition at the EU or the Office of Fair Trading, to determine whether any change in market dominance raises competition issues. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, also asked about the 2011 report of the IGC. I do not expect inspiration to arrive and therefore I will have to write to the noble Lord.

My noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market talked about modal shift for passenger and freight. We recognise that modal shift from air and road to rail can generate important environmental and congestion benefits. However, rather than trying to force people away from car or air travel, we are working to support sustainable travel choices. A number of barriers can prevent behaviour change, including powerful ones such as habit.

Studies have indeed indicated that the Channel Tunnel has spare capacity to accommodate growth. Although there have been indications that the rail freight share of the cross-Channel market would be higher if rates were lower, pricing judgments are inevitably subjective and it is always difficult to make accurate volume and revenue forecasts. However, in partial answer to the question from my noble friend Lord Freeman, there is spare capacity for growth, as about 50% of capacity is being used at the moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, suggested that access charges for Eurotunnel are too high, and other noble Lords said as much. We have no clear evidence that Eurotunnel’s charges are inappropriate. However, the IGC is currently investigating the level and appropriateness of Eurotunnel’s charges, and its joint economic committee published a report on the first phase of its work in October 2011. Further work is under way but will take some time. Until those investigations are concluded, and on the basis of the evidence currently available, we would recommend caution in assessing whether the level of charges is appropriate.

In answer to another question from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, the Government support long-distance high-speed rail. At present, services on HS1 and the Channel Tunnel are relatively inaccessible for those outside London and the south-east. By providing direct access to the wider European network for services from Manchester, Birmingham and other cities, a link between a national high-speed rail network and the current HS1 could address this. In January this year, the Government announced that phase 1 of the HS2 network will include a direct link to the continent via the HS1 line to the Channel Tunnel. The Government’s view is that the strategic case for a direct link between the proposed high-speed rail network and the HS1 line to the Channel Tunnel is strong.

My noble friend Lord Freeman asked about the Waterloo International terminal. I had been briefed on this but, sadly, some time ago. My noble friend will recall that the connection to HS1 was slow, and there are also technical issues regarding bringing the platforms into domestic service.

I should like to say a few words about the role of the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission and the IGC legal framework and governance. The governance structure for the Channel Tunnel has been sufficiently flexible to accommodate subsequent developments in European, UK and French law and regulation, and it is expected to continue to be so. The Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission and the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority are currently seen as providing an effective structure for regulating the Channel Tunnel in line with the European framework. If a need is identified to improve the effectiveness of the IGC or to adjust the powers available to it as regulator, the Government will promote any necessary legislative changes.

The speed of IGC decision-making is conditioned in part by EU regulatory processes and requirements and by the processes and responses of the concessionaires and other stakeholders. The IGC process with regard to the authorisation of proposed new services through the tunnel cannot start until the relevant documents have been submitted.

I think that I will have to part company with my noble friend Lady O’Cathain and the rest of the committee at Canterbury. The Channel Tunnel is a binational infrastructure and therefore needs some form of binational governance. This is necessary regardless of which authorities have, in law, the regulatory functions. Even when the IGC is exercising legal powers in its own name, its decisions are, in practice, informed by discussions between the French and British national authorities. In this connection, we are working with our French colleagues to conclude as soon as possible transposition of the revised railway safety and recast railway interoperability directives for the Channel Tunnel. We see no need to renegotiate the treaty, and I suspect that the French have no appetite to do so either, as observed by my noble friend Lady O’Cathain. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, referred to the treaty and to direct governance of the tunnel but I do not think I heard him say what the policy of Her Majesty’s Opposition is.

I turn to the tunnel-specific safety rules for passengers and freight. The IGC has made significant progress in reviewing its rules to check that all the safety requirements currently in place continue to be justifiable on safety grounds and to remove those which are not. The IGC will continue to hold this view unless the evidence demonstrates otherwise.

The tunnel authorities and Eurotunnel are working together to address the consequences for the tunnel’s rules of the opening of the European rail market. This includes a programme of work to address the European Rail Agency technical opinion, which has already led to a number of requirements being removed. The UK Government accept the principle that the IGC must justify, by robust risk analysis, any requirements that are additional to the European harmonised technical specifications for interoperability.

The safety concerns that underpin the tunnel’s safety requirements reflect the difficulties of getting firefighters in and other people out of a 54-kilometre undersea tunnel in the event of a fire. My noble friend Lady O’Cathain asked when the work on the TSIs will be completed and whether the TSI requirements will be rescinded. The Safety in Railway Tunnels TSI is expected to be revised in mid-2013. Some specific requirements in the Channel Tunnel rules have been removed—for example, the 30-minute running time for freight locomotives. Other remaining tunnel rules are expected to finish in September 2012.

I turn to economic regulation of the Channel Tunnel. The UK considers that the Channel Tunnel’s regulator’s independence from any railway undertaking is properly preserved as regards the UK. No one in the UK IGC delegation or working at the Office of Rail Regulation in support of the IGC has any responsibility for Eurostar. Within the Department for Transport, policy responsibility for Eurostar is vested in a separate command that has no locus in or responsibility for the IGC.

My noble friend Lady O’Cathain, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and many other noble Lords talked about border and immigration controls. Rail liberalisation presents a number of border control challenges which the Home Office and the border force are seeking to resolve with colleagues from across government, the police, rail operators and the Governments of other European countries. It is occurring against a background of rapid changes in border control technology, which will help to meet some of those challenges. But these challenges will only become more significant with the increase in international services. That is recognised in respect of HS2.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the noble Lord explain what border controls are planned for HS2? That seems a bit odd as I thought it was within the UK.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think the hope is that passengers will get on HS2 on an international journey further up the country, maybe from Birmingham.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, asked about Schengen. The position of the UK outside Schengen means that exit checks also need to be completed for all passengers leaving the zone prior to immigration arrival controls in the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the UK’s possible infraction for non-compliance with the first railway package in respect of the Channel Tunnel. I am unable to discuss the infraction procedures with respect to the first railway package and the Channel Tunnel but we consider that the railway usage contract does not breach the requirements of directive 2001/14—the first railway package—for the duration of a framework contract, and complies with Articles 17.5 and 17.5a in that it relates to a uniquely large-scale and long-term investment which is covered by contractual commitments. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, also asked about the Commission taking further action against member states for non-compliance of the first railway package. The European Commission is currently taking infraction action against those member states that have not correctly implemented the first railway package.

I am grateful for your Lordships’ comments and, where appropriate, I will certainly draw them to the attention of my right honourable friend the Rail Minister, Theresa Villiers.

Olympic Games 2012: Disruption to Businesses

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

Yet another interesting question from my noble friend.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, will the Minister expand a little on his response to my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham? We read in the press of the arrival of hundreds if not thousands of members of the Olympic family—which I think probably means the International Olympic Committee and all the hangers-on. No doubt each participating member state will send a senior Minister and their entourage, and that is before we get to our own Ministers. Will all these people be able to use these special lanes in addition to the athletes—who are the ones we want to get there on time—or will they be confined just to the athletes? If the lanes are extended to all these other people who think that they have a role to play then, as my noble friend said, the public will get very angry indeed.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord will understand that the provision of the Olympic route network was a key component of our bid to host the Olympics. If we had simply said to the International Olympic Committee, “Oh yes, we will have a great transport system”, we simply would not have secured the bid. We had to tell the International Olympic Committee specifically how we would provide the transport, including the Olympic route network.

Railways: Great Western Franchise

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the new Great Western rail franchise specification for trains between Bath, Bristol, Newport and Cardiff, and intermediate stations, will take into account recent increases in population and demand.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, recent increases in population and demand will indeed be taken into account. In drawing up the objectives for the new Great Western franchise, emphasis has been placed on the need to provide appropriate capacity for passengers, within the constraints of affordability and available infrastructure. We are looking closely at recent growth trends and forecast demand as part of the specification process.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Presumably he will have read—because I sent it to him—a report of the West of England Partnership’s Joint Transport Executive Committee, which the committee will in fact discuss tomorrow, proposing a greater Bristol-area metro network with much more frequent regional trains and some extra new stations. Will he ensure that that kind of specification is included in the tender specification for the new franchise?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an extremely important point. The Government’s objective is to strike an equitable balance of stakeholder interests: the fare payer, the taxpayer, the long-distance business traveller and the commuter. These stakeholders are obviously in conflict. Because of this, we urge our friends in the west and south-west of England to reach a consensus on their priorities so that we can use our resources to progress them to best effect.

Roads: Traffic Lights

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that the main difference between the United States and here is that being a pedestrian is thoroughly discouraged in the US? You are supposed to drive around 50 yards if you have to and I do not think that there are any bicycles at all. Given that we have lots of pedestrians and a growing number of cyclists, does he agree that, if anyone is going to turn left on a red light, it would be much better if they were cyclists, if it is to be done carefully?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, noble Lords behind me are saying, “No way”, and I think they are right. There are already ways of giving cyclists priority over other traffic and improving their safety at junctions—for example, by introducing advance stop lines and cycle bypasses, and providing dedicated traffic signals for cyclists if required.

Cyclists: Accidents

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness asked me about the male/female ratio. We are aware of the hypothesis. The figures for accidents are mercifully low but, unfortunately, increasing. It is difficult to extract measurable data to formulate policy or make effective regulations. The noble Baroness also talked about “Trixie” mirrors; these mirrors are placed on traffic signal posts and help HGV drivers to see cyclists on their near side in the blind spot at signalised junctions. The department provided approval to TfL to extend the use of these mirrors across the cycle superhighway network, and it will consider further requests for “Trixie” mirrors by other authorities. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the situation in Paris.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in the present mayor’s time in office accidents have actually increased? It is thought that he has increased the free-flowing of cars and lorries through the junctions, and reduced the time for pedestrians and cyclists to go across. He has also reduced the amount of space on the road for cycle lanes, and things like that—in spite of bringing in the new “Boris bikes”, which of course we all welcome. Could that be looked at? Do the Government think that the idea of a £200 million fund from the Campaign for Better Transport in London to help cycling facilities would help to reduce deaths?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is true that, in 2011, 12 out of the 16 cyclist fatalities in London involved a goods vehicle, with seven involving construction vehicles, but it is too early to see whether there are any undesirable trends. Both Transport for London and my department will study these matters very carefully indeed.

Rail: Great Western Passenger Franchise

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will ensure that the new Great Western passenger franchise provides the capacity and service quality to meet the expected growth in passenger numbers.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on 22 December, the Department for Transport launched a consultation on the new Great Western franchise. The consultation document contains the Government’s objectives for the new franchise. These include: providing appropriate capacity for passenger services that is both affordable and delivers value for money for the taxpayer within defined infrastructure and rolling stock constraints on the Great Western network; and ensuring that the overall passenger experience improves throughout the life of the franchise.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that Answer. I have read the document to which he referred and good things are certainly said about the problem of overcrowding. However, he will be aware that according to government statistics eight of the 10 most crowded trains are on First Great Western, and there have been serious overcrowding problems at Bristol and in Cornwall. Given that there will be a long franchise and that the number of passengers may greatly increase, how will the Government incentivise the successful franchisee to run more coaches or trains so that it does not have to go to the Treasury begging for more money?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord on his analysis of the overcrowding problems on the current franchise. He will be aware that the difficulty with the current franchise is that it does not incentivise the operator to increase capacity. However, there will be significant capacity increases, especially with the introduction of the IEP train.

Railways: Train Design

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 12th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, noble Lords will know that this Government have made considerable investment in the rail industry and will continue to do so. Noble Lords should also be aware that there is considerable refurbishment work available on the existing rolling stock in order to make it compliant with new accessibility requirements.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his first Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, demonstrates the inconsistency or lack of policy not only on who procures rolling stock but on who operates it and how many coaches there are? The OJEU notice on the First Great Western new franchise says in one paragraph that,

“the franchise operator will be expected to take responsibility for the provision of rolling stock”,

yet immediately follows that by saying that it will supply the IEP—the intercity train programme. How can any manufacturer or operator plan on such an inconsistent policy?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that the IEP is in principle a bi-mode—electric and diesel—rolling stock project and is designed to run across several franchises. Central government therefore has to have an involvement. In general, it is a matter for the rail industry to procure rolling stock. However, central government has to ensure that the rolling stock contract is sustainable in case, as the operator of last resort, it has to step in and run the franchise.

Company Cars

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not accept that company cars are necessarily larger than average. It is up to the employer what size car to supply to the employee. The system of company car tax takes into account the retail value of the car plus accessories and the CO₂ tailpipe emissions. A heavier car is likely to, but will not necessarily, have higher emissions and therefore higher costs for the employee.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is there not evidence that company car drivers tend to drive not only far further but faster and less safely than people who own their own cars? Should not the Government look at that?

Railways: High-speed Rail

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to say that the hybrid Bill process is long and complicated. He suggests that we should do this in one Bill. I should point out that a difficulty with that is that, while we could secure political co-operation to deal with the Bill as expeditiously as possible, my noble friend will be aware that outside organisations can petition against a Bill as long as they have a locus, and there is nothing that we can do in Parliament to stop that—and I am not sure that we would want to either. My noble friend talked about including provisions for the spur in the initial hybrid Bill. I make no promises whatever, but I will mention his suggestion to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

[Lord Berkeley]

I very much welcome the Statement. It would be helpful if the Minister, through his colleagues in the Commons, could encourage as many Members of Parliament as possible along the route—they may have strongly opposed the project—to look at their constituents’ best interests now and say, “Right, we’ll work with this and get the best mitigating measures possible”. That is what happened with the Channel Tunnel, which I worked on, and High Speed 1. Members of Parliament, led by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, did extremely well in looking after their constituents’ interests rather than opposing the principle.

I have one question for the Minister on the connection between HS2 and HS1. I welcome the fact that there will be a railway connection, which is mentioned in the document, but I am very concerned that it will run for about half a mile along the North London line, which is not only at its most congested there—most people would say that it is full already—but will not be capable of taking any international train of the current design. I do not know whether that is another reason for the scheme not getting any European money, which my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham referred to; but to make the system work, there has to be a through connection built to the new gauge. I understand from Network Rail that it is technically quite possible to do so, and it would probably be cheaper too.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that opposition to the scheme is waning in the light of the work done by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and her predecessor, and I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, might have done a little bit of work on the side as well. We must not forget that the duty of MPs is to represent their constituents.

The noble Lord asked about the important question of connectivity between HS2 and HS1. The North London line, to which he referred, will support at least three trains per hour in each direction while also maintaining the current service levels. Some gauge clearance will be necessary to accommodate the wider and taller HS2 trains on the North London line. We are confident that this can be achieved with minimal impacts on the local community and rail services.

Transport for London Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on moving her Bill so expertly, and I am grateful for the contributions of other noble Lords. I shall resist the temptation provided by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, to discuss rolling stock purchases.

I do not oppose this Second Reading. However, I should make it clear that the Government also have some reservations about the powers in the Bill as presently drafted. Officials from the Department for Transport are currently in discussion with Transport for London on these provisions and I look forward to a more detailed examination of them in Committee.

[Lord Berkeley]

As the Bill was, as I understand it, introduced about a year ago, have these discussions been going on continuously for a year? They are taking an awfully long time if that is the case.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Transport for London is responsible for progressing the Bill. I am just giving some comments on behalf of the Government.

On the subject of the disposal of land and Clause 4 of the draft Bill, which has been one of the principal subjects of this debate, the Government are clear that the protection of strategically important assets must remain a priority. Furthermore, it would appear reasonable for the arrangements in London to parallel those on the national rail network, where there are restrictions analogous to those currently placed on Transport for London. I should also point out that Transport for London already has the power, without prior consent, to lease operational land for less than 50 years and to dispose of land that has not been operational for five years or more. I understand that Transport for London is looking further at this option and I look forward to its revised proposals.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 5th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would not imagine that it impacts greatly on pump prices. I will see if inspiration comes to me in due course. However, the cost is in the impact assessment.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked how we could support UK production. The RTFO seeks to increase biofuel use. We want sustainable biofuels. The RTFO allows sustainable biofuels to count. We cannot exclude biofuels because they come from outside the UK. If we did, we would face competition issues from the WTO and no doubt from the European Commission as well. Also, such anti-competitive behaviour would be against the interests of UK consumers. The key is sustainable feedstock.

[Lord Berkeley]

If we have one of the “big four” accounting firms doing the verification and the material is coming from South America or the Far East, will they go there to check it or will they rely on local certification?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is up to the supplier to convince the authorities that their fuel is sustainable.

Many noble Lords asked about advanced biofuels. A number of commercial activities are developing advanced biofuels. BP is involved in a joint venture to develop biobutanol. Double counting of waste-derived biofuels and advanced biofuels will increase the financial incentive to invest in advanced biofuels.

My noble friend Lord Eccles asked number of questions. Many of them are key to the debate, so I will go through them and I hope that the answers will cover many other noble Lords’ concerns. He asked about UK production. The UK is currently the largest single supplier to our market. Volumes from the UK have increased over the years. The market share is currently around 23 per cent. The detail is on the department’s website. The noble Viscount asked whether our 10 per cent was not all tallow, et cetera. Tallow and used cooking oil account for a significant proportion of UK feedstocks. Some fuel comes from agricultural feedstocks. Again, the detail is on the website. He asked what happens to our oilseed rape production. We do not have the figures to hand. The statistical data are on our website.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is standard procedure to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in any of these debates.

The noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked me several interesting questions. First, he asked if there were any suggestions that adding biofuel to fossil fuel reduces fuel efficiency. Yes, biofuel is less energy-dense but we are blending only low volumes. He asked about the proportion of biofuels supplied today under the RTFO that comes from crops. The latest published figures indicate that two-thirds comes from crops. He also asked about the cost to the motorist to date, which has been between £300 million and £400 million per year at current market prices. He asked whether, after consulting on a number of options, we are keeping the buyout mechanism. The answer is yes. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, the buyout mechanism is in place to provide a safety valve that will protect both industry and the consumer from spikes in the cost of supplying biofuel. It will allow obligated suppliers to buy up part or all of their obligation, rather than meeting it by redeeming the RTFCs that are issued to those supplying sustainable biofuels. The cost of buying out is 30p per litre of fuel that the supplier would otherwise have been obligated to supply.

The noble Lord also asked about the efficiency and effectiveness of biofuels, and whether there were any problems. He will recall that I recently answered an Oral Question in the Chamber about ethanol and petrol, which can cause some problems. However, they are not insurmountable.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked me what I would say in response to industry concerns that there has been inadequate time to prepare for this and that consultation on the RTFO guidance has been very brief. We have no intention of delaying transposition and implementation. The renewable energy directive was published in 2009 and set mandatory sustainability criteria for biofuels. The implementation of the criteria should not come as a surprise to industry. Those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish a sustainable biofuel supply chain will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.

[Lord Berkeley]

Before the noble Earl winds up, perhaps I could try a variation on the question that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, posed. The Minister said that processing and selling biofuels was a good investment. He then said that there were no targets for the volume or the price—the sale price or the costs—beyond 2014. Would he recommend anybody to invest in this, or would he rely on the advice of the verification schemes of the big four, who of course will not have a conflict of interest?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there is a target of 5 per cent in 2014 and each year thereafter. I remind the noble Lord that we will be consulting on the future after 2014.

This is the right time for this order. We did not allow ourselves to be rushed, as we wished to ensure that the legislation was built on robust evidence. The Committee will be aware that there were a number of policy shifts relating to biofuels in the past. We wanted to be clear that this order was based on clear facts and sound science.

We have also taken steps, both with the order and through earlier work, to ensure that industry has been given adequate time and information to prepare for the change. The RED was published in 2009 and there have been regular meetings since then between departmental and industry representatives to discuss the sustainability criteria. The RTFO has been in place since 2008, and those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish sustainable biofuel supply chains will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.

I have tried to answer as many questions as possible. I will write to noble Lords on any major points that I have not addressed, and I have already undertaken to discuss one matter with a ministerial colleague. I hope that I have addressed the key issues raised today and that the Committee will agree that the order is the best way to proceed with our UK biofuel policy.

Transport: London and the Regions

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for securing this debate. He put the position of Northern Ireland very clearly. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that my department has a very good understanding of regional needs. The Government’s vision is for a transport system that is an engine for economic growth, sustainable, safer and more secure. In delivering this transport system we will help to improve the quality of life in our communities. Transport networks, including those between London and the regions, provide crucial links that allow people and businesses to prosper. Simply put, increasing connectivity between our great cities and international gateways will facilitate the movement of goods and people and encourage economic growth right across the country. The Government’s plans, including targeted investment in forthcoming transport projects, will contribute to building the balanced, dynamic and low-carbon economy that is essential for our future prosperity. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, these investments will be sustained. Forecasts show that our country’s transport networks are becoming increasingly congested and that demand for travel is set to grow. This will further exacerbate congestion unless we act.

Let me remind the Committee of some of the action that we are already taking. The Government are providing additional Pendolino trains on the west coast main line. By the end of 2012 all the trains will be in service, thus increasing capacity on that route by around 20 per cent. Further to this, the intercity express programme will deliver a new fleet of 100 intercity trains—not carriages—to replace the existing diesel-powered 125 fleet. This will support and accommodate anticipated growth on routes, including those to the north of England, East Anglia, Scotland, Wales and the south-west. Introducing these trains, combined with infrastructure improvements such as the electrification of the Great Western Main Line, will see journey times fall and capacity increasing by more than 30 per cent during peak hours.

[Lord Berkeley]

The last announcement I saw from the noble Earl’s department said nothing about the IEPs going to East Anglia or to the south-west. The south-west was going to retain the 125s. Has the policy changed?

[Earl Attlee]

No, my Lords. It refers to the cascading of rolling stock. I will touch on cascading later. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about rail electrification. The policy of the Government is to support a progressive electrification of the rail network in England and Wales, and we are looking at the costs and benefits of further electrification. We will continue to work with stakeholders to review these schemes and assess their affordability and value for money.

These improvements will play an important part in making better use of our existing network, but they will not be enough to keep up with increasing demand for rail travel. Additional intercity capacity will be needed in future and the Government cannot afford to ignore this problem. High speed rail provides the best way to meet that pressing need. The Government’s proposals for a national high speed rail network will add the capacity that we need, bring faster journeys between major towns and cities, improve reliability of journeys and drive modal shift from air and road to rail. Crucially, high speed rail is an investment in the future of our whole country, bringing economic growth and other benefits to the towns and cities of the Midlands and the north as well as to London. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, this will help to reduce the north-south divide.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport intends to announce the outcome of the recent major public consultation and final decisions on the Government’s strategy for high speed rail before the end of the year. While the importance of rail networks should not be underestimated, the majority of journeys between London and the regions are made by road. The strategic road network connects all major English towns and cities, and links in to the road and motorway networks in Wales and Scotland. As your Lordships will be aware, the main road links between London and the regions are the M1, M4 and M6. During the current spending review period, seven schemes are planned on these roads. These will increase capacity and journey time reliability. Six out of the seven schemes are managed motorways, which, through a combination of techniques, including hard shoulder running and gantry mounted variable signing and better co-ordination, will provide around 210 additional lane miles during busy periods. It is also worth noting that three years of research on the M42 managed motorway pilot scheme, which was introduced by the previous Government, has shown that accidents have more than halved since hard shoulder running was introduced.

Air travel has become increasingly popular for domestic journeys. The Government recognise the importance of air links between London’s airports and our regional airports, not least because they provide fast and direct links between cities, which is exactly the type of service that both business and leisure travellers demand. A key part of the Government’s approach to aviation is to seek to create the right conditions for UK regional airports to flourish. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the problems of air travel in the south-east. I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that Newquay airport has scheduled services to London Gatwick and Manchester. New scheduled services to Edinburgh, Glasgow and the east Midlands are due to commence in 2012.

It is important to remember that in the UK, airlines operate in a competitive and commercial environment, and have done so for many years. Individual airlines determine the routes they operate, with take-off and landing slots at major London airports governed by European law. Currently more than 90 return flights are operated between Northern Ireland airports and London, and 600 each week between Scottish airports and London.

We want to see a successful and competitive aviation industry which supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impact. Aviation should be able to grow and play its part in delivering our environmental goals and protecting the quality of life of communities. Accordingly, the Government have made a commitment to produce a sustainable framework for UK aviation. In March we published a scoping document to begin a dialogue on the future direction of aviation policy, and we will issue a public consultation on a draft policy framework next year. We are also seeking to reform the economic regulation of airports, to put passengers at the heart of the regulatory regime, and to support investments in our airports.

I will try to answer as many questions of noble Lords in the time available. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about rail travel from Cornwall. As touched on by the noble Lord, Cornwall County Council has an ambitious programme of local rail improvements. We are talking to the council and Devon County Council about devolving some responsibilities for rail to a group of south-west local authorities. A typical journey time from London to Plymouth is just over three hours, and around five hours to Penzance. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley is correct in his analysis, but there is no easy way of addressing this issue. Trains on this route make frequent calls, so cutting out the number of stops would be one way of speeding up journey times. But the communities at which the trains stop value their calls, and withdrawing those would create difficulties for them.

The noble Lord also talked about what we know as the cascading of used rolling stock. The noble Lord will be well aware that the business cases for rail schemes, including electrification, often rely upon the process of cascading, and it is a complicated jigsaw that the department has to manage.

[Lord Berkeley]

May I correct the noble Earl? I entirely agree with him that the fewer stops there are, the faster the trains go, but leaving out stops will leave some communities missing. That is why I said that there should be a stopping service in between the fast ones every hour, to pick up the passengers from the communities in between.

[Earl Attlee]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that elucidation. The noble Lord asked whether the minimum service levels will be based on the current First Great Western timetable. The proposed approach to the specification of the services for the next Great Western franchise has yet to be developed and would anyway form part of the public consultation.

Many noble Lords have talked about the problem of slot allocation at Heathrow and public service obligations. Perhaps it would be helpful to the Committee if I carefully reiterated the positions. It would be open to the Northern Ireland Assembly to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a public service obligation on an air route from Northern Ireland to London, should it feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EU regulation on PSOs. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a London airport. As I said at Question Time, there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports.

It is important to note that EU regulations state that the PSO must be between two cities or regions and not between individual airports. Therefore, any PSO would have to take into account services to all five London airports. Other European states have exactly the same problems. You may have a region in France that is slightly deprived, and it might want to fly direct to Charles de Gaulle, but it cannot. It might, perhaps, have to fly to Orly and not have the benefit of going to a hub airport. We do not necessarily have a unique problem.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that we cannot leave this issue to the commercial market. It is important to note that any PSO on a service to Heathrow could be subject to legal challenge from other airlines. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about the requirements in franchise rail operations, but he needs to remember that airline operations are commercial operations, not franchise operations.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the need for this amendment emerged following the first decision under the regime a little over a week ago when it became clear that the Planning Act 2008 contains a drafting flaw that could have serious consequences for the regime if not corrected. Under compulsory purchase law, local authorities, statutory undertakers and the National Trust have special protection from proposals to compulsorily acquire their land. Where they object to a compulsory purchase order, and do not withdraw that objection, the order is subject to special parliamentary procedure—an involved, complex and often lengthy process which can add six to nine months to the timetable.

The first decision under the regime has demonstrated that the Planning Act 2008 has inadvertently widened the grounds on which special parliamentary procedure is engaged. Any representation by a relevant body on any aspect of the development consent order not limited to compulsory acquisition can trigger SPP. This means that many more projects will need to go through the SPP than do at present, with implications for growth and jobs. Government Amendment 53, therefore, seeks to correct the drafting of the Planning Act to bring it into line with compulsory purchase law as it operates under the town and country planning system.

Let me be absolutely clear on this for the benefit of the House. We are absolutely not seeking to lessen the important protections for land belonging to those bodies, and indeed this amendment would not prevent the National Trust, for example, from invoking SPP where a development consent order would grant consent for its land to be compulsorily acquired. The amendment seeks only to correct an error in the 2008 Act, thereby ensuring that the compulsory purchase regime is consistent across both the 2008 Act and the major infrastructure planning regimes. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing his amendment and allowing me to speak to my three amendments in this grouping. He has agreed to respond after this, and it is very welcome that we can do it in this way.

I shall just make a very small comment on government Amendment 53. While I welcome the amendment—it is good to see that the Government recognise that some changes have to be made to the Planning Act in this regard—it does nothing for the point that I shall come on to shortly. In a wider sense, the special parliamentary procedure seems to be an additional safeguard in the 21st century, with a rather heavier touch, as I shall come back to several times, than the approach taken in the Harbours Act or the Transport and Works Act orders, which are two of the principal order-making regimes that the Planning Act draws on and replaces.

I turn to the amendments in my name. The House will recall that, both in Committee and on Report, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, my noble and learned friend Lord Boyd and I moved, and spoke in support of, a number of quite technical arguments, which we thought were pretty important to the Bill, designed to make a number of changes to the provisions of the Planning Act 2008 dealing with the new regime for considering national infrastructure projects, which are currently operated by the Infrastructure Planning Commission. The Planning Act is a distinct improvement on the many regimes that we had before for the types of infrastructure that it replaces, and I think that it is settling down.

My concern, which I expressed previously and will have to return to shortly tonight, is that this Bill should have gone further and made more changes to the 2008 Act that are either a necessary or logical consequence of the IPC's abolition and the return of decisions to Ministers or are simply required to make the 2008 Act work better. I have been briefed in particular by the National Infrastructure Planning Association, which has people with great experience in this field. I welcome the Government's intention to keep the new regime under review, but it would be helpful to hear from the Minister tonight a little more as to quite what they are going to review and when.

The House will recall that the Minister, Greg Clark MP, said in a Written Ministerial Statement that the Government are,

“listening to industry, representative groups and others using the system … and will be exploring opportunities for improvement to ensure the system has the right mix of certainty, flexibility and efficiency”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/3/11; col. 73WS.]

That is good. In the impact assessment for the Bill’s provisions on major infrastructure projects, published in January this year, we are told that, in relation to the policy behind the preferred options, which is now reflected in the Bill,

“It will be reviewed 04/2014”.

I would like to hear from the Minister how this review will take place.

Before discussing in more detail the issues focused in these amendments, I want to mention a very recent development that appears to be highly relevant. Apparently,

“The European Union is concerned that the single market is not operating effectively because of a lack of integrated energy, transport and digital infrastructure”—

I certainly support that view—

“and is also not moving to a secure, low-carbon energy future quickly enough”.

On 19 October, only a couple of weeks ago, the European Commission launched two new proposed regulations to address this: the “Connecting Europe Facility”, which is about to spend €50 billion on all three sectors of infrastructure, which is a great deal of money; and a focus on energy infrastructure, for which the Commission will require new authorisation regimes because such projects will have to be subject to a special “permit granting process”. It is a bit complicated, but €9 billion has been earmarked for energy projects.

The Government will have to change regulations or legislation to allow these internationally significant infrastructure projects—which are apparently called ISIPs, as opposed to NSIPs or something—that will sit above, or instead of, the Planning Act regime for nationally significant projects. There are various processes and timetables set out for this and the pre-application consultation requirements are quite prescriptive. I understand that all these are required to be in place by 1 September 2013, which is only nine months after the regulation is due to come into force. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister how the Government intend to do this and make sure that the money being offered from the EU is available.

I am grateful to the Minister for arranging a meeting between his officials and myself and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, between Report and now. We had a very useful meeting and I take the opportunity to thank Ministers and officials for the very helpful discussions. We should have had the meeting some time ago, but we did not—as was said at Report. However, I hope that, even so, we can make progress.

Turning to the amendments themselves, I should say that Amendment 87 relates to the Minister’s amendment about development consent orders and the need to have special parliamentary procedures where there are objections. As the Minister said, it could take about nine months extra if one had to go through these procedures. I still wonder why we have to go through these procedures when there should be a single consents regime with a harmonised set of requirements and procedures, which I call a one-stop shop. I compare the complexity and difficulty of this with the transport and works orders and the harbours orders.

On Report, the Minister referred to the Planning Act drawing on long-standing and well-established protections from compulsory purchase orders for certain types of land. He thought that our proposals then would significantly weaken them, but I do not accept his reference to a two-tier system—why it should go further than happens with the TWA and the harbours order. The House will recall that the only project so far to be approved by the IPC, which is Covanta's proposed incinerator in Bedfordshire, will now have to be approved by this House and the other House under SPP. A lot of people may not like these incinerators but that has gone through a process and, again, will be subject to six to nine months’ extra delay. I hope that the Minister can indicate that these issues will be reviewed in the light of experience.

The next amendment in the group, Amendment 88, refers to the regulations made under Section 150, which deal with construction-related consents in England. Again, we discussed this quite thoroughly on Report—so much for having a one-stop shop, as there are still up to 42 other consents required from regulators in England and a further 36 in Wales. I still have not discovered why there are so many extra ones in Wales but it may be that the noble Earl will take the view that it does not matter very much. Again, the point is that it would be very good for those developing new projects to be able to reduce the number of these other consents which they have to get. I wonder whether the Minister would be prepared to give some kind of timetable and a commitment to reviewing this number, and even to produce a report to Parliament every year for the next few years. That could challenge his colleagues in other departments on whether they really can be brought underneath this umbrella of the one-stop shop.

Finally, on Amendment 89, again, we have discussed the creation of criminal offences in some detail but it is still a worry that the types of offences which can be introduced through this process are not sufficient for the types of projects and offences which might be required. Again, that provides a much greater limit than the Transport and Works Act orders do, which is why I wanted to see whether we could include railways and construction in tidal waters. One example which springs to mind is the question of trespass during construction, which could well occur on the high-speed line—assuming that it gets built—or on some of the offshore wind farms, if people can get around there. Trespass is a very difficult thing to stop if you do not have the right regulations, and it would be good to see whether the Minister would be able to extend the existing criminal offences to the two issues in this amendment.

To sum up, we have made progress on these issues in discussions on the Bill but we have certainly not gone as far as I would have liked to see. However, is the Minister prepared to tell us a little more about the issues that I have raised and about three things in particular? First, there is the impact assessment on how the Planning Act 2008 has worked in respect of projects through the IPC and its successor, which I believe is supposed to be there in 2014. Secondly, there is how this connecting Europe facility will work and whether the Government are keen that projects here should get the extra €9 billion that will be available for energy alone. Finally, can I press him to have an earlier review and a progress report to reduce significantly those 42 consents, plus the 36 in Wales?

Saudi Arabia: Driving Licences

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that when we talk to the Saudi Arabian Government, we make that point.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, surely the noble Lord could say straight to the Saudi Arabian Government, “We are not going to enter into these negotiations until you allow all women of the right age and with the right experience to be able to drive in Saudi Arabia and we will not accept those licences in this country until that is achieved”.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think the best way of achieving our objective—I think we are clear about our objective—is to apply steady, consistent pressure to states like Saudi Arabia. We will not get them to roll over overnight. No doubt the Saudis give us friendly advice about, for instance, underage drinking and other cultural matters.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his work in this area. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, I have really considered this matter only in respect of railways but I think that noble Lords will find my answers satisfactory. The noble Lord and I did indeed have a meeting on this—ironically, I turned up a few minutes late.

Amendment 223A would amend the provisions of the 2008 Act which relate to railway projects. The amendment seeks to introduce two new powers. The first relates to a case where a railway project contains both development for which consent is required under the 2008 Act and development for which permitted development rights exist. In this case, the amendment seeks—on application from the promoter—to permit the Secretary of State for Transport to direct that the permitted development should be dealt with under the Planning Act along with the development for which consent is required under the Act. I confirm that Section 35 of the Act already provides a power of direction capable of achieving this. A new power is not necessary. The second relates to a situation where development consent is required for a railway project under the 2008 Act. In response to a qualifying request, if the Secretary of State for Transport thinks that the project is not of national significance, he may direct that the development should be treated as development for which consent under the Planning Act is not required.

My DCLG officials have discussed this matter with the Department for Transport and Network Rail, and have agreed that a carefully considered threshold would be preferable to such a power, as it would provide greater clarity on what should be considered major infrastructure. We have therefore agreed that secondary legislation should be brought forward under Section 14 of the Planning Act to set a suitable threshold for rail projects, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. This will be taken forward by the Department for Transport. With this assurance, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that very positive response. Perhaps I could tell my noble friend Lord McKenzie that it applies only to railways because in other major project areas under the Planning Act there is always a minimum threshold. For some reason, one was not done at the time for railways—everybody thought that railways were big ones, and nobody picked it up. I suppose I should ask the Minister when the regulations will be tabled, but I am sure that he recognises the importance of that for certain projects. If it would help in drafting these things I am happy to meet with him, along with people from Network Rail and other infrastructure managers if they are interested. However, that seems to be a very good way forward and I am very grateful to him. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure my ministerial colleagues in the Department of Energy and Climate Change will take all relevant matters into consideration.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to noble Lords who have participated in the debate. It has been a good debate in which a number of different views have been expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made a good point about thresholds. As I raised it in a previous amendment in respect of railway projects, I think it is relevant to learn from something that possibly went wrong before.

I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to speak to his ministerial colleagues and, if appropriate, to bring this matter forward by secondary legislation. I am therefore pleased to withdraw the amendment.

War Memorial Gardens

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 13th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce legislation concerning the use of war memorial gardens for entertainment purposes.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government have no plans to introduce legislation concerning the use of war memorial gardens for entertainment purposes. It is for local authorities to take decisions on such matters where they own the land. In doing so, we would expect them to take into account the sensitivities of the local communities involved.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. This Question arises from an application for two months of corporate events in Trinity Square Gardens, a memorial in the City to the many hundreds of thousands of merchant seamen who lost their lives in the major wars. As noble Lords will know, this has generated widespread disgust. I congratulate the mayor and Tower Hamlets Council on rejecting this application in the past 24 hours, but can the Minister offer an opinion on whether it is appropriate that those who caused the financial crisis, often got bailed out by the taxpayer and are still awarding themselves mouth-watering bonuses should ever be allowed to dance around memorials like this?

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can understand why my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes has moved this amendment. She has explained the problem and other noble Lords have made sensible and balanced contributions. However, Transport for London and ultimately the mayor are responsible for pedicabs in London. The Government take the view that issues surrounding pedicabs in London should be dealt with at a local level, which this amendment would provide for. After all, this issue only really affects London. However, the mayor, Transport for London and the London local authorities are already taking the initiative to address the matter with straightforward measures that avoid the trap of overregulation. Noble Lords will be aware that Westminster City Council is currently working up a voluntary—

[Lord Berkeley]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I believe that they operate in Oxford, and there is a similar problem there. But I do not know what the solution is.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I skilfully avoided saying that this problem was unique to London, because I thought this issue might arise, and I might get challenged by someone like the noble Lord.

Westminster City Council is currently working up a voluntary registration scheme for pedicabs, with registration being incentivised by providing parking bays and pedicab ranks for members. Those operators and riders subscribing to the scheme will sign up to a code of practice, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has already alluded to these developments. This registration scheme would then tie in with the provisions relating to the enforcement of road traffic offences in relation to pedicabs, which are included in the London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill, currently before Parliament. Effective implementation of the provisions in the Bill relies on a system of licensing or registration being in place. The relevant clause could not come into force until a registration scheme for owners and riders has been approved by the Mayor of London.

Railways: Brighton to London Line

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 6th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will safeguard Uckfield station and the rail track of the former Uckfield to Lewes route for possible future use to provide additional capacity to the main Brighton to London line.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there are no current plans to issue safeguarding directions. However, the former Uckfield to Lewes route is safeguarded by both Wealden and Lewes district councils in their local plans.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that East Sussex County Council has plans to build a road across the formation outside Uckfield which would, of course, completely prevent the line being reopened? Furthermore, is he aware that British Rail Property Board, which, as the House will know, is being abolished, is trying to sell off all its surplus land, which includes the land of the old Uckfield station, which, again, is essential to the reopening of this line? Will he instruct the property board not to do that and to keep this and other similar pieces of land for future reopening?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord raised two points, the first of which is the road. One of the benefits of the proposed scheme is that it allows for the building of a bridge at a later stage should that be necessary. In fact, the scheme makes it easier to open the line, should that be necessary, because to the west of the proposed road crossing is a level crossing, which would be unacceptable if you wanted to open the railway.

The noble Lord asked about the BRPB and whether we would give it directions. No, we will not. It is not necessary. We are absolutely confident that nothing has been done that will compromise the ability to open the railway at some point in the future, should it be desirable to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Skipton to Colne route is a little far from Uckfield and Lewes. I can point to the dualling of the Swindon to Kemble line, which is very expensive but will bring many benefits. I see the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition nodding her head enthusiastically.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the answers that he has given to various colleagues on my original Question. Lewes-Uckfield is in Network Rail’s route utilisation strategy, which was published last year, so a lot of people in Network Rail must think that there is demand there.

The Minister said that if the Secretary of State was asked to give some assurance or make some designation on certain routes, the developers might try to claim compensation. Given the time that it takes to develop any of these new railway lines—noble Lords have given different examples—surely there is a case for looking at the policy again so that routes can be safeguarded even for 10 or 20 years. It may take that time to get a new project off the ground.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we do not think that that route will need to be opened within the next 20 years.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes extremely important points which were all picked up by the South East Airports Taskforce. She mentioned the UK Border Agency. We are aware of scope for improvement and UKBA is working on that. She will also be aware of other things that will be happening as a result of the South East Airports Taskforce’s work, which will improve the experience for passengers.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, would it not be better if we concentrated on service quality at airports and did not go for the busiest? Is the Minister aware that Beijing is soon to have another runway, which will give it a total of 120 million passengers a year, and would it not be much better for the environment if we concentrated policy in this country on the medium and shorter-term passengers being able to travel by high-speed rail and ordinary rail?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the general thrust of what the noble Lord says is very good. Interestingly, I went to Gatwick airport last week and saw the effort being put towards improving the passenger experience. No doubt I shall be going to Heathrow shortly.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 119A, I shall also speak to Amendments 119B, 119D, 119DA and 119BA, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton. The amendments will allow integrated transport authorities and their executive bodies, passenger transport executives, to properly undertake activities that benefit or contribute to their purposes. The enabling power goes beyond the existing incidental powers and can extend outside their geographical boundaries and immediate hinterland. These bodies are not local authorities and will therefore not have the benefit of the general power of competence that is already contained in the Bill.

The matter was debated in another place and in this House on 20 June. In response to an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the Secretary of State for Transport sought agreement to include suitable provisions in the Localism Bill, and this was given. The amendment provides an appropriate broader general power for integrated transport authorities and their passenger transport executives. For consistency, the power will also be provided to combined authorities and economic prosperity boards.

The main reason why these bodies need such a power is that local authorities using similar powers to the ITA’s existing incidental and well-being powers have been the subject of successful legal challenge. Integrated transport authorities and their passenger transport executives have therefore been unwilling to undertake activities and enterprises that are not expressly prescribed in law. The view that they could be successfully challenged has been supported by legal opinion obtained by the Passenger Transport Executives Group. An example provided by PTEG of the activities that they are seeking to use the new powers for is the provision of back-office functions for transport smart cards, similar to Oyster cards in London, to local authorities not in an ITA area or in another integrated transport authority area. Because providing and charging for such an activity is not expressly permitted by existing legislation, they fear legal challenge.

The potential benefits of integrated transport authorities being able to let their passenger transport executives undertake such operations for others is that they will be able to realise the economies of scale from providing similar services to a number of bodies. The bodies wishing to use these services will also benefit from obtaining the service more cost-effectively from an organisation that is already doing something very similar. The cost savings realised by both provider and client can be passed on to council tax payers. In the case of the service provider, this will be the metropolitan district councils in the area concerned. In the case of the client organisations, this will be either local authorities outside an ITA area or the metropolitan district councils within another ITA area.

The suggested amendment to government Amendment 119B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, is unnecessary because we are satisfied that where it serves some purpose in relation to a body’s function, collective action is already covered in the drafting of the new broader general power to be found in proposed new Clause 102B(1). Noble Lords will be aware that the parliamentary draftsmen undertake their work with great care. We are at one with what powers we want to grant and we should trust the parliamentary draftsmen to get it right on our behalf.

On government Amendment 119D, I have just explained to your Lordships our argument for providing integrated transport authorities and PTEs with wider general powers. This amendment seeks to do the same for combined authorities and economic prosperity boards, which are intended to provide stable governance mechanisms for long-term strategic decision-making on economic issues. In bringing groups of relevant authorities together, both are expected to be based upon meaningful economic geography. Where a combined authority is established for an area, it will be responsible for the transport functions in place of an ITA as well as having economic development and regeneration powers. Currently, one combined authority has been established in Greater Manchester. Economic prosperity boards are similar to combined authorities but without the transport functions. There are presently no economic prosperity boards.

Given that broader powers are being given to integrated transport authorities, it is essential that these powers are also made available to combined authorities and economic prosperity boards to ensure that they can effectively discharge their economic objectives. Indeed, given the close interrelationship between economic development and transport, it would be unreasonable not to confer these broader powers upon both bodies and would undermine their ability to deliver sustainable economic growth. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, this is an interesting group of amendments. The Minister explained their purpose very well, but it seems to me that the pendulum is swinging from local authorities, PTEs and ITAs et cetera getting a bit frightened of what they are allowed to do to something that is beginning to look like a Henry VIII clause in the transport field. That is probably quite a good thing, actually. It seems that they are going to be given powers to do anything. Perhaps the noble Earl could explain whether this could include, in respect of the integrated transport authorities or the passenger transport executives, things such as operating rail franchises if they felt like it. Could they take a bigger role in sponsoring and deciding how the franchises were run, and what would be the extent of their financial commitment to it?

Could those authorities go as far as was recently planned in Merseyside: for Merseytravel to run a vertically integrated railway and take over the infrastructure from Network Rail? It was interesting that that authority had been lobbying to do this for at least five years, if not 10, but then just as the McNulty report, which might have encouraged them to do it, came out it decided that it was not going to do it because it was too risky. However, it is an interesting option that may be open to other authorities. What will they do in running trams and operating buses? The prospect of even better integration between different types of services would be good, if it happened.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

Perhaps I might follow up something that my noble friend Lord McKenzie asked the Minister about the timetable of national policy statements. As I said earlier, the energy ones were published and agreed yesterday, which was great. We have heard nothing yet on ports, airports and interchanges, which will come out of transport. We do not even have any dates for their publication. Perhaps the port statement is in draft form—I am not sure—and there are probably other NPSs coming from other departments. I do not expect an answer from the Minister now, but it would be good to have a letter with an expected timetable. At the moment, industry sees the prospect of several years of vacuum with no policies to work to. It would be very helpful to have firm timetables.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this large group contains a range of amendments that seek to amend various provisions in the Localism Bill that amend the Planning Act 2008. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, has not moved his amendment, which addresses a drafting flaw in the Localism Bill, because government Amendment 166VE deals with it. I am grateful that the noble and learned Lord did not worry us with moving his amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked when the full NPS will be available. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about the ports and the timetable for other such important NPSs. I will write to noble Lords on that and on any other technical issues that I do not cover in my response.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin has tabled a range of important technical amendments that aim to ensure that the new major infrastructure planning regime is as efficient as possible. These address matters such as: land subject to compulsory purchase, Amendments 166D, 166E, 166L, 166M 166N and 166P; notification where a deadline is extended, Amendments 166G and 166H; the power to amend an application after submission, Amendments 166J and 166K; the power to waive compliance with regulatory requirements, Amendment 166Q; the application of Section 150, Amendment 166R; offences, Amendments 166S and 166T; transitional provisions, Amendment 166U, which was also spoken to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby; judicial review, Amendment 166V; discharge requirements, Amendment 166W; and the decision-making period, Amendment 166VCA.

I can assure my noble friend that, as he suggested, we share the same goals. It is vital for the future of the UK that the major infrastructure planning regime must be as efficient as possible. If my noble friend will permit, I would like to consider the points he has raised in more detail and consult him and others between now and Report to see whether anything further can be done on the issues he has raised. With that assurance, I hope he will not move these amendments at the appropriate point.

Amendment 166KA, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, would remove certain types of development usually connected with underground projects from the definition of associated development in the Planning Act 2008. The ability to grant consent for associated development is critical to the operation of the single consent regime. The amendment would require developers to seek multiple planning consents for major projects, adding to the cost and complexity of making the application, which is precisely the situation we are trying to avoid, so I hope the noble Lords will not pursue this amendment too far.

Amendment 166UAB, which is also tabled by my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, seeks to require a national policy statement to address carbon emission targets and national policy objectives on assessing and adapting to climate change. I fully sympathise with my noble friends’ concerns regarding climate change and carbon reduction, but the requirements of the Climate Change Act 2008 are binding on Ministers in the exercise of any of their functions, including national policy statements. Moreover, the Planning Act 2008 already places significant requirements in relation to climate change on Ministers when carrying out their functions in relation to national policy statements. I therefore do not believe this amendment to be necessary.

Amendments 166UZA, 166UZB, 166UAA, 166UBA, 166UBB, 166UCA and 166UE in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and Amendments 166UA, 166UB, 166UC and 166UD in the name of my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, seek to provide for positive approval of national policy statements by both Houses of Parliament and remove the 21-sitting day timetable for consideration.

The 2008 Act provides both Houses with a full scrutiny role in relation to national policy statements and indeed this House has already undertaken a very detailed scrutiny of the first of them, including those on energy and waste water. This role will not change. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about debates on NPSs. The 2008 Act provides for a Committee of either House to scrutinise national policy statements and, if they recommend it, for a debate to be held on the Floor of the House. The key point to note is that the Localism Bill supplements this with a requirement for approval in the other place.

National policy statements are policy documents, not legislation. This House has never had a role in approving policy documents and it does not automatically follow that because the Localism Bill provides for the other place to have such a role, this House should also. If both Houses had the authority to approve a national policy statement, but one were to reject it and the other approve it, this would call into question the legal standing of the document and any planning decisions that were to rely upon it. This could lead to extensive delay to both the national policy statements and the provision of vital infrastructure.

The discretion to approve a national policy statement using the negative procedure and the introduction of a timetable of 21 sitting days are intended to ensure that the approval process is both efficient and flexible. Their removal could ultimately result in further delay. It is important to note that the DPRRC raised no concerns about these provisions. Given this, and the explanations I have given, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

Amendment 166VZA, in the name of my noble friend Lord Jenkin, and Amendment 166VZB, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, would amend provisions of the 2008 Act which relate to electricity lines and railway projects respectively. I have considered these proposals carefully and concluded that in both cases the amendments could be effected by amending Part 3 of the Planning Act. The procedure already exists in secondary legislation to achieve this and therefore there is no need to adopt these amendments. On electricity lines, I would of course be delighted to facilitate a discussion between my noble friend Lord Jenkin and colleagues in the Department for Energy and Climate Change. On railways, I would be equally happy to meet the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and my officials in the Department for Transport to discuss the process further. In short, if there is a problem that needs to be ironed out, I am up for it.

Government Amendments 116VA, 116VB, 116VC, 116VD and 187A extend the new power in Section 116 of the Bill to Wales to cover non-devolved matters and provide greater flexibility in the acceptance of applications.

I hope that I have given sufficient reassurance to the Committee on the matters that concern noble Lords to allow them to withdraw the amendments they have proposed, and I hope the House will agree to the government amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Hanham when the Question is put.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Amendment 148ZZBBBA, moved by my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, seeks to limit spending on the ongoing costs of providing infrastructure to those items that were originally funded by the levy. New developments may create additional demands on existing infrastructure as well as demands for new infrastructure. The amendment would prevent local authorities from using levy receipts to address the intensification of demand on existing infrastructure, despite the fact that this could be exactly what is needed to support a new development.

My noble friend’s Amendment 148ZZC seeks an exemption from the levy for any development that makes a contribution to existing infrastructure through Section 106 planning obligations. This is not appropriate as the two instruments are concerned with different aspects of development. Through the levy, most new development would contribute towards the cost of meeting the cumulative demands that development of an area places on infrastructure. Conversely, planning obligations are concerned only with the site-specific matters necessary to make a particular development acceptable in planning terms.

Local infrastructure may or may not be part of the planning obligation. Where it is any part of a planning obligation, it must satisfy the statutory tests that ensure that they are necessary to make the development acceptable, are directly related to the development and are fairly related in scale and kind. We do not believe that it is appropriate to exempt development that is subject to a planning obligation from making a contribution to the more general infrastructure demands that it places on the area. In addition, the existing legislation already prevents developers being charged twice for the same item of infrastructure through both instruments. That answers the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I will check to make sure that it also answers the concern of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I am not absolutely certain that it does, but I will check, and I am sure we will return to this at a later stage.

[Lord Berkeley]

The port down the Thames—London Gateway—committed probably £100 million to upgrade the junctions on the roads and the motorway leading to the M25 to cope with additional traffic reported to be coming from its development. I understood the Minister to say that that is exactly what the CIL might be required to do. I see that as double taxation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think that I will come to a point later in my speech that should deal with the noble Lord’s concerns.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin also proposes Amendment 148ZZD, the effect of which would be that where regulations require the charging authority to pass funds to another body, it would retain ultimate control over how those resources are used by confining spending to matters it determines appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggested that Section 106 might be being phased out. Is that correct?

[Earl Attlee]

No.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the purpose of the CIL is for owners or developers of land to contribute to the cost of providing infrastructure that supports the development of the area. Almost all development has some impact on the need for infrastructure, or benefits from it. It is fair that such development pays a share of the cost of providing that infrastructure. In setting a charge, local authorities must have regard to the actual and expected costs of infrastructure and its other sources of funding. They must also have regard to the economic viability of development, which includes the need to deliver affordable housing.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, proposes amendments to provide that affordable housing provision will not be prejudiced by any levy charges that an authority may set. As we explained in the other place and to the National Housing Federation, the existing legislation already provides appropriate safeguards to avoid negative implications for the delivery of affordable housing. The statutory guidance issued under Section 221 of the Local Planning Act 2008, to which local authorities are required to have regard, explicitly sets out that a charging authority must take development costs, particularly those for affordable housing, into account when setting a charge. The point of the levy is to support and not frustrate the delivery of a local development plan. The statutory guidance is specifically clear that an examiner should consider whether a local authority’s proposed charges would put their affordable housing target at risk. Where the independent examiner considers that it does, they should not approve the proposed charge.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked me about the Section 106 funding source for affordable housing. It does not follow that the imposition of a CIL charge will result in lower Section 106 contributions. In setting a charge, a council has to consider the impact on the economic viability, including affordable housing, and ensure that the levy does not put it at risk, which will include affordable housing funds. These amendments are clearly well intentioned. We agree that affordable housing is important and must not be harmed by the implementation of a levy. I can reassure noble Lords that the amendments are unnecessary, as appropriate safeguards already exist.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in his Amendments 148ZZZBE et cetera, seeks amendments that would in effect allow local authorities to implement a charge without first having to remedy any deficiency identified by the independent examination of their proposals. Local authorities are in the best position to know what level of charges will work in their area to support development and encourage growth, but we do not accept that they should have complete freedom to set any charges they like. Instead, we are maintaining proportionate safeguards to prevent unreasonable levy charges, which could put development at serious risk. Our proposals rebalance the relationship between the examiner and the local authority, to provide that it is the authority that has the final decision on how any deficiencies in their proposed charging schedule are addressed. However, we are clear that any changes made by the authority must be sufficient and necessary to remedy any non-compliance identified by the independent examination of the proposals.

Noble Lords also seek to remove powers that allow for regulations to make provision about the evidence that a local authority must or must not consider in setting a charge. Our experience of similar examination of local plan-making shows that the decisions of independent examiners vary. Councils have tended to give a great deal of weight to previous decisions, and that has sometimes led to restricted local flexibility and freedom. We want to ensure that that does not occur with the levy. The proposed power will enable the Government to respond in a robust and flexible way to practices which threaten to undermine the ability of councils successfully to introduce their local levy charges. Our proposals strike the right balance between ensuring that local authorities have real discretion to set charges in their area while retaining appropriate safeguards to ensure that proposals do not put development of the area at risk.

Amendment 148ZZBBA, tabled by my noble friend Lord Greaves, would widen the permitted use of levy receipts beyond infrastructure to matters that support the development of an area. My noble friend has raised an interesting point. We are clear that the point of the levy is to support growth and new development. Infrastructure is of course central to supporting new development and unlocking growth, but it is not the only matter necessary to enable and incentivise development. We want to reflect on whether continuing to limit spending solely to providing infrastructure restricts local authorities’ ability to support and enable development of the area. We want to consider whether widening permitted uses of the levy would make the instrument more effective and better placed effectively to promote, support and enable new development.

My noble friend Lord Greaves also proposes Amendment 148ZZBBB, which would do two things. First, it would alter the purpose of the levy so that it is focused on supporting communities rather than development. We have set out proposals to pass a proportion of the funds raised in an area to the parish council for that area and for those funds to be spent on infrastructure to support the development of that area. Control over the remainder of the funds is to be retained by the charging authority—normally the unitary, district or borough council—to provide the infrastructure needed to support the development of the larger area. The point is that the impact of the development and the infrastructure needed to support it are not confined to the geography of the community. Some will be, and our changes to direct a meaningful proportion of funds to the communities where development takes place will deal with that. Other matters, such as transport, span communities—and, indeed, charging authorities.

Secondly, the amendment proposes to allow funds to be used for the building, improvement and renovation of housing. That is unnecessary, as existing primary legislation in the Planning Act 2008 already contains the power to allow for levy receipts to be spent on affordable housing. However, regulations currently prevent that. Allowing such spending is therefore not a matter for the Bill, but the treatment of affordable housing is relevant to the amendments sought. I can confirm that we will consult during the summer on making that change through regulations.

In Amendment 148ZZCB, my noble friend Lord Greaves seeks to remove the provision for regulation to set out the ongoing costs to be funded by the levy. The powers we propose mirror existing ones in the Planning Act 2008, which allow for regulations to set out the works, installations or other facilities to be funded by the levy. The existing powers are currently used to specify that the Mayor of London must use receipts to fund strategic transport infrastructure. London is unique in that the London boroughs may also levy charges in their area, but are free to spend the receipts on any infrastructure to support their areas. We have no plans to use the power to specify the ongoing costs to be funded, but we envisage that it is necessary to deal with similar exceptional circumstances.

[Lord Berkeley]

Can the noble Earl clarify what is covered by “future ongoing costs”? Is it maintenance of housing or maintenance of a road? It is a bit of an open-ended commitment. You can understand a capital cost but if it is maintenance for roads or housing forevermore, it seems a bit odd.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, perhaps it would be helpful if I first answered the question from my noble friend Lady Hamwee on whether ongoing means maintaining the infrastructure or excludes it. Clause 100 sets out that this includes maintenance and operation of infrastructure.

Amendment 148ZZBBC seeks to allow the levy to fund the provision of infrastructure on a continuous rather than ongoing basis. We do not believe that this amendment would have a material effect. Our changes clarify that levy receipts can be used to maintain the ongoing costs of providing infrastructure but such spending will still have to satisfy the requirement that it also supports development of the area. The reason for our change is that the current provisions are being construed as limiting spending only to the initial costs of providing infrastructure. This could prevent infrastructure that is wanted and needed from being provided where the funds necessary to maintain and run it are not available. This is a perverse outcome and we are making sure that councils have the flexibility to deliver what is needed to support development of their area.

My noble friend Lord Lucas seeks an amendment that would prevent regulations allowing levy receipts to be reserved for future ongoing costs. I have explained that our proposals are concerned with ensuring that local authorities have real flexibility to spend the funds on the matters that are needed to support development in their area. We believe that this amendment would constrain this flexibility and could result in inefficient and ineffective spending by requiring funds to be used now rather than retained for future strategic projects that are planned.

Amendment 148ZZCD, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and others, proposes to remove provisions that provide for regulations to place a duty on charging authorities to pass all or some of any community infrastructure levy received to other persons. Alongside the physical barriers to new development, growth can be slowed or restricted by local concerns about its impacts. We intend to use the powers conferred by Clause 100 to require charging authorities to pass a meaningful proportion of receipts raised from new development in an area to a parish, town or community council for that area where there is such a local council. The local council will be required to spend the funds to provide infrastructure to support the development of its area.

When communities understand that new development is directly contributing towards the cost of the demands that it places on the infrastructure of their area, and see that they will be given real control over how these resources are used to address those demands, they are more likely to accept and indeed support it. Our reforms to the levy will make it genuinely pro-growth. Addressing the demands that new developments place on infrastructure will enable development to happen and it will incentivise communities to accept it. Using receipts to invest in the local area will ensure that growth is supported and sustainable, which will in turn unlock new development and growth.

We want to reflect on the amendments proposed by my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Tope to allow the spending of the levy on matters other than infrastructure. It is essential that the levy operates in a way that helps drive growth as effectively as possible. We will carefully consider whether permitting spending on other matters can improve the instrument’s ability to support and enable development. As ever, I am very happy to discuss these matters privately between this stage and Report. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments at the appropriate point.

Diplomatic Missions: Unpaid Congestion Charges and Parking Fines

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have had a brush with Transport for London over the congestion charge and, unfortunately, I found it to be deadly efficient.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House whether the President of the United States and his very long and low-slung car—which went aground in Dublin, we are told—and his retinue of 40 other cars paid the congestion charge when they came to London last month?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I expect that they probably claimed diplomatic immunity.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will be delighted to deal with the noble Lord’s point later in my speech.

I was very interested to see the amendments tabled in the name of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. In considering the merits of these, we would need to be certain that any panel would provide additional value on top of the existing availability of judicial review. Amendment 114A, tabled by my noble friends Lady Eaton and Lord Tope and the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord McKenzie, would take this a step further. I do not feel, however, that arbitration is appropriate. This is not just about deciding between disputing parties on a breach of contract; it is a complex matter that involves myriad decisions, including on the apportionment of resources and most importantly on the ability to pay. It is not appropriate for a single unelected individual to make such decisions, any more than it would be for them to decide the local government finance settlement.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a point about the revenue support grant. I go back to my point that it is not about raising money; it is about avoiding the fines in the first place.

[Lord Berkeley]

The Minister mentioned ability to pay. If a council has no money, does that mean that the Government will not have to pay?

[Earl Attlee]

Not quite, my Lords, but the decision-making process will have to ensure that what the council pays is affordable. It may hurt them, but there is no intention to bankrupt a local authority, which I think would concern noble Lords. There has to be an affordable fine. However, if an amendment similar to the one tabled by my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes were put in place, it would be hard for Ministers to ignore its advice without making themselves vulnerable to judicial review. I am very grateful for the clear way in which my noble friend explained her amendments.

I welcome the tone of the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and I can confirm that we will make clear in the policy statement our commitments to the principles of fairness, reasonableness, proportionality and no surprises. This is why I find the draft document from the Greater London Authority so helpful. Unfortunately, the amendment, which seeks to put tougher tests on culpability by using the criminal standard of law, causes some real practical difficulties. Unfortunately, the European Court of Justice proceedings are based on civil standards of proof. Rather than rerunning the European procedures here in the UK to the higher test, it is better to use a court’s finding to focus on quickly achieving compliance.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding seeks to ensure that the Government cannot designate any private company. I agree that we should not penalise companies for their private services and functions. I believe that this amendment needs further consideration. We need to ensure clarity as to who is to be covered by these provisions.

Finally, to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, whose amendment we are debating, I suggest that there is no need for his amendment. Clause 36 sets out that the powers apply only to English authorities exercising public functions in England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked where we are in negotiations with outside bodies. He is of course, correct in what he surmises. However, your Lordships and another place will have to decide what is to be done in the end. In conclusion, I would like the opportunity to consider, in consultation with ministerial colleagues, those suggested amendments which could provide a way forward and a solution.

While I am clear that putting the decision-making in the hands of a single unelected individual is not helpful, I am very willing to take away the other suggestions from noble Lords. I believe that together we can develop good solutions in time for Report. While I cannot accept a veto, I am very happy to continue discussions with outside bodies and noble Lords in order to develop this good solution before Report. In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the Minister explain his last reference to the different types of organisations that might be covered, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I raised, be they water companies or railway companies? Is the Minister going to write to noble Lords who have spoken with more detailed responses to all these things, or is he going to recommend that we put down amendments on Report about which should be covered and which should not?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very happy to enter into detailed discussions with any noble Lord.

Olympic Games 2012: London Air Quality

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to respond to the report of the Olympic Delivery Authority that air quality in London will exceed European Union limits during the 2012 Olympic Games.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government are committed to working towards the European Union’s air quality standards and have recently made an extra £5 million available to help the mayor tackle some of London's worst pollution hotspots. During the Olympic Games our ambition is that all spectators should travel to London venues by public transport, cycling or on foot. These and other measures will help minimise air quality risks in London during the Games.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Will he say who is responsible for keeping the air at the right quality? Is it TfL, the GLA or the Government? Secondly, if there is very little wind during the Olympic Games and PM10 values exceed the limit, is he aware that the Government could be fined £180 million by the International Olympic Committee? That is what will happen if the pollution is as bad as it was in Beijing. Does he have a contingency plan?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first question is simple. Everyone is responsible: the Government, the mayor, TfL, LOCOG, the ODA and, most importantly, individuals who make their own transport decisions. As regards the noble Lord’s second question, the host city contract states that the International Olympic Committee can withhold payment from LOCOG if an event in the Olympic and Paralympic Games cannot take place for any reason or if there is non-compliance with the contract. Air quality in the UK is improving and it is very unlikely that air quality issues will result in payments being withheld.

Petrol: Ethanol Content

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the noble Earl tell the House how many petrol-driven tank engines there are in the country? I thought they mostly ran on steam like Thomas does.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is talking about the wrong type of tank. I am talking about a tank at the REME museum in Bordon.

Railways: Cardiff Valley Lines

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, given the success of the service on the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line, why are there no passenger trains from Ebbw Vale to Newport, for which there must be a big demand? I believe that freight has been running on the line for many years. I declare an interest as chairman of the Rail Freight Group.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. As I understand it, although there is a freight line to Newport, the signalling is not up to the required standards for passenger trains. Under the new signalling project, modern signalling has been provided for but not fitted. Specifying train services is a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government, so if they want to specify that there will be passenger train services from Ebbw Vale to Newport, they can do so.

Transport: Penzance and Isles of Scilly Ferry Service

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government are committed to the continuation of both passenger and freight ferry services between Penzance and the Isles of Scilly. Transport Ministers are considering a funding proposal from Cornwall Council and hope to make a decision shortly.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that response. Is he aware that the funding offers from the European Union and the tenders for the new ferry run out at the end of this month? Is he also aware that the Scillies have a very small population that relies on tourism? The ferry route goes across probably some of the roughest waters around our coast, and it is very challenging to find the right ship. Is he also aware that, unless a decision is made by the end of this month, the Scillies are likely to be severely disadvantaged this summer because the MCA says that the existing ship, if it is allowed to continue, will have to cut its maximum number of passengers from 600 to 300?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we understand that a decision is sought by the end of March. While I can make no guarantees, we appreciate the timing constraints and are doing all that we can to avoid a further delay. The noble Lord talked about the population of the Isles of Scilly. There are about 2,000 people, and the investment will represent £28,500 per resident. The noble Lord’s points about the sea-keeping quality of the ships are well made.

Airports: London

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government have set up the South East Airports Task Force to look at how we can make airports in the south-east better, but not bigger.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, since the Government claim to be the greenest Government ever and have announced the construction of a high-speed railway line, will they also take forward their airline policy by restricting demand so that the CO₂ emissions are reduced with the use of less environmentally polluting means?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are indeed restricting demand: we are not authorising a third runway at Heathrow Airport or anywhere else in the south-east.

Railways: Light Rail Vehicles

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Rail Value for Money Study by Sir Roy McNulty is considering the use of light rail vehicles to provide low-cost passenger train operations on lower-traffic routes.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Rail Value for Money Study is considering a range of options, a number of which might encourage more use of light rail vehicles.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that fairly short Answer. I am sure he will be aware that a light rail vehicle called the Parry People Mover has been operating in Stourbridge at probably 99 per cent reliability all the way through the winter, which is much better than most other trains. Will he encourage this company and others to continue to develop these light railways, which use low-weight, low-emission vehicles that are much more reliable? They can be used on many branch lines and other places, and costs could be reduced. They are an alternative to the welcome announcement made two days ago about the intercity express programme, where I understand that the procurement costs for that particular train were £30 million for the department.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the Parry People Mover vehicle. We will encourage such developments. My officials in the department work closely with Mr Parry and they are working hard to resolve some of the technical difficulties.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the whole object of this policy is to create a level playing field for UK operators, so we intend to charge a vignette to all operators to operate in the UK, but at the same time to create off-setting measures for UK hauliers, possibly by reducing the rate of vehicle excise duty, or by other measures.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is the noble Earl aware that the cost of the number plate recognition scheme used in London is about 30 per cent of the revenue? Why is he not going for a distance-based system, which has been introduced in much of the rest of Europe, where the costs of collection and fraud are said to be very much less?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have learnt from the experience of the London congestion charging scheme, but the technology is not completely appropriate for what we are planning. When VOSA patrols the strategic route network, it will use automatic number plate reading technology to scan all commercial vehicles to ensure that they have a valid vignette.

Severe Winter Weather

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that my ministerial colleagues are carefully considering whether the payments are at the right level, but it is not a matter for me to comment on.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the local authorities are accusing the Government of profiteering on selling salt to them at a time when local authorities’ budgets are being severely cut and, certainly in some areas, local authorities are forced to salt roads only where there is a steep hill and not on the flat? How can the Government claim that the situation is under control when local authorities do not have the money to buy salt or to spread it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting point, but he needs to understand that local authorities should regard central government as a supplier of last resort.

Transport: Bus Stops

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we encourage local authorities to use the powers available to them. A key point about bus stop clearways is that you do not need a traffic regulation order to set one up so they are easy for local authorities to implement.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the Minister help the House by telling it how many prosecutions have been brought by the police or local authorities for such bus stop contraventions? Could he hazard a guess about how many fewer there will be after the number of policemen has been cut?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, unfortunately I cannot give a figure for the number of penalty charge notices issued, and if I had thought to ask that question, I would probably have been told that they cannot separate general parking offences and bus stop offences.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Thursday 18th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will implement their commitment to introduce lorry road-user charging.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, heavy goods vehicle road-user charging is being introduced to ensure a fairer arrangement for UK hauliers. The details of the scheme and offsetting measures to help UK hauliers are still to be finalised. It must operate within relevant EU legislation and apply to both UK and foreign hauliers. New legislation will be needed.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that Answer, but my Question asked how the Government were going to do it. Will the Government go for time-based or distance-based charging? As regards coming to that decision, is he aware that time-based systems are fully open to fraud—30 per cent of revenue in Switzerland is lost through fraud—and that the costs of implementing them are about 40 per cent of the revenue, compared with 10 per cent for those that are distance-based? Can the noble Earl assure me that he will take that into account when coming to a decision?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it may be helpful if I run through the options. The Government are looking at options that are simpler and cheaper than the satellite-based lorry road-user charging system that the previous Government failed to implement. A time-based charge would be the simplest option, but it has the difficulties that the noble Lord outlined. Distance-based charges based on tachograph readings, or roadside equipment detecting vehicles as they pass, have advantages, but they are more complex and significantly more expensive to implement. The Government expect to be able to give more details in the spring.

Transport: Investment

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it fills me with dread when the noble Lord says that he will ask me a few technical questions.

The noble Lord referred to some of the terms of our assessment and things like that. We need to ensure that the schemes with the best value for money, the best benefit to society and the best economic growth are the ones that go forward. The noble Lord has expressed concern many times, in both this Parliament and the previous one, about NATA. We are reviewing that process.

The noble Lord talked about hard-shoulder running. He will be aware of, I think, the M42 where the Highways Agency has trialled hard-shoulder running, which has been shown to work. I understand that the statistics have shown a safety improvement. Because it has been shown to work, there will be more hard-shoulder running schemes.

The noble Lord mentioned the M6 toll road, which is perhaps not getting all the toll income that it should. I remind the noble Lord that the M6 toll road is not PFI-funded but is a private road.

The noble Lord mentioned the condition of local roads, which is a matter of great concern. I think that the ICE’s State of the Nation: Infrastructure 2010 report states that the Highways Agency’s strategic roads are in quite good shape but local roads have serious problems.

Finally, the noble Lord also talked about the utilities. All noble Lords will be aware of the problem of utilities digging up the roads, sometimes in ways that are completely inconvenient. We are aware of that, but I will draw the noble Lord’s question to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, since the election the Government have made great play of being a green and low-carbon Government, particularly committed to low-carbon transport. When one reads the Statement, it is extraordinary that it emphasises so many rail projects—most of which are irrelevant because they come under the major scheme—and very few road schemes, especially in the detailed list of 600 schemes, whatever those are. I am surprised. Perhaps the Minister could explain why the Statement mentions no local rail schemes or local tram schemes—except, I think, for one.

There is mention of a few bus schemes. Presumably, those will follow on from the enormous success of the Cambridge guided busway, which I think is two years late and has doubled in cost. Why anybody wants to replicate that around the country, heaven only knows.

There is nothing at all about cycling—no cycle schemes. I understand that the Government have cancelled the cycle training programme organised by Cycling England. Where is the implementation of the Government’s green agenda in this Statement? It seems to be business as usual, going back to the previous Conservative Government.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am delighted to respond to the noble Lord’s points about low-carbon and sustainable transport. Rail schemes will be covered later, as we are not talking about CP5 issues.

The noble Lord referred to problems with the Cambridge scheme. I have just signed off a reply to a Written Question on that, so he will get an Answer shortly. I accept that there are a few problems there.

The noble Lord talked about cycling and the situation with Cycling England. He needs to remember that, as I said the other day, the bikeability scheme will continue.

Roads: Cyclists

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

I agree with my noble friend and, returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, the reason why the police concentrate more on motorists is because they cause more serious accidents than cyclists.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Government are keen to educate people about cycling. Could he start with one of his own quangos, the Carbon Trust, which has just put out a circular to its members saying that they must not cycle to or from work or between meetings, especially on Boris bikes, because it has not been able to do a risk assessment on the quality and safety of Boris bikes?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be fully aware that this Government are concerned about the overapplication of health and safety regulations.

Roads: Speed Cameras

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect on road accidents of their decision to phase out central funding of fixed speed cameras.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, no assessment has been made about the effect on road accidents that may result from the decision to discontinue the specific road safety capital grant. The Government continue to provide substantial funding for local transport, including for road safety. Fixed camera operation is an option for local authorities, which remain free to invest in new cameras using their own resources.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. He will be aware, I am sure, that there will be very few convictions for offences now that the cameras have been discontinued. Is he aware that the Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership assessed the speed of cars after these machines were switched off and found that 2.9 to four times more cars are exceeding the speed limit? Is that what the Government’s road safety policy is about? There have been many more accidents, deaths and serious injuries. Is that really what the Government intend?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we certainly do not want people to exceed the speed limit and we will monitor the casualty rates both nationally and locally. Local authorities should consider the potential of the full range of road safety interventions, including educational and engineering solutions, and the Government will encourage them to do so.

Government: Ministerial Cars

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is a Question about ministerial cars. I would rather not be drawn into the issue of the Prime Minister’s or the Deputy Prime Minister’s car.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his colleague who went to the Dunkirk celebrations this year took a car all the way from London to Dunkirk instead of taking the Eurostar and hiring a local car at Calais to get to Dunkirk? I believe that the cost was several thousand pounds. Why could he not take the train half way, to Calais, and then take a car?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if the noble Lord thinks that the Ministerial Code has not been completely complied with, he should write a letter to the Cabinet Secretary. On the question about certain former Ministers, on security grounds they may have the use of an allocated car and driver.

Transport

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Monday 5th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords for their kind words about my new appointment. We live in a country with a proud transport history, where for generations a network of canals, rail, road and international gateways have underpinned the strength of our economy and the freedom of our society. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions today. Without exception, they have been thoughtful and interesting, and valuable to me. I have long been a strong believer in the potential of transport, and I am honoured to be able to initiate and respond to today’s debate. This is the first debate to which I am responding for the Government, so I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if there is any room for improvement.

I see my role as representing and answering for my department in the House of Lords and, most importantly, drawing your Lordships’ views to the attention of relevant Ministers. We are fortunate that my right honourable friend Mr Philip Hammond, the Secretary of State, is already providing clear direction and strong leadership in the running of the department. We have always enjoyed robust and constructive debate on transport matters in this House, and we are passionate about safety. My right honourable friend has made it clear to me that he values our views and that he expects me to articulate them, as appropriate, at ministerial level. That is one reason why this debate is so important. I assure noble Lords that I will personally review Hansard over the next few days.

Noble Lords have already privately been making very helpful suggestions about how to secure best value for limited funds while avoiding the trap of special pleading. Every area that we ring-fence or protect will mean greater reductions elsewhere—I am sure that all noble Lords understand that.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, referred to my note to him. If the result is a speech of the value and quality that he made, I will invariably write to him when I initiate a debate. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about the coalition. I attend ministerial meetings several times a week and I can assure noble Lords that they are very good and benefit the coalition.

Spending cuts are obviously difficult. We are in the early stages of a new Government, and Ministers are considering the full range of transport policies. In the coming spending review, we will be adopting a rigorous approach, reviewing all the department’s projects and programmes to ensure that they represent value for money and are consistent with the Government's objectives, including the need to reduce the deficit.

Many noble Lords talked about Network Rail. It is vital that Network Rail’s governance structure enables the company to work effectively on behalf of passengers, freight customers and wider industry stakeholders. Only an accountable and responsible infrastructure operator, one able to offer the best possible results for both operators of rail services and their users, can enable a modern, 21st century railway network. We are thus examining the current structures and incentives of the industry to see where there is room for improvement and where more accountability is needed. Of course, the McNulty report will help. The needs of passengers must be at the heart of the UK's railway. The independent Office of Rail Regulation, which already oversees the safety and efficiency of the railway, is well placed to promote the interests of Network Rail's customers, and we will work with ORR to explore how it might require changes to make Network Rail more responsive to the needs of both passengers and train operators. As the 2010 annual report and accounts of Network Rail demonstrated last month, it is all too clear that the best performing train is the gravy train of Network Rail.

Turning to franchise reform, my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers announced on 17 July that the Government had launched a franchising policy review. That resulted in the cancellation of two outstanding competitions, Greater Anglia and Essex Thameside. A consultation will be launched later this month, and will focus on coalition agreement priorities, such as increasing franchise lengths and giving operators incentives to invest. The conclusions of the consultation will be announced at the end of the year.

Many noble Lords have talked about high speed 2. The Government propose to establish a national high-speed network as part of our programme of measures to create a low-carbon economy. Given the cost and scale of such a network, the Government recognise that it will need to be achieved in phases. Demand for travel between major British conurbations is expected to increase significantly over the next 20 to 30 years, leading to severe congestion and overcrowding on our existing systems. The previous Government therefore set up HS2 in January 2009 to look at the feasibility of and the business case for a high-speed rail line between London and the West Midlands. It also considered high-speed services linking London, northern England and Scotland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, talked about the condition of local roads and related issues. I read the ICE report State of the Nation and the markings for local roads were not good. The Government have confirmed that the £84 million announced in the Budget in March for repairs to local authority roads in England, following the damage caused by last winter’s severe weather, is not part of the £683 million in savings. It is for each local highway authority to decide how best to use that money, but Department for Transport officials wrote to each authority in March emphasising the need to consider using long-term treatments rather than ad hoc patching.

The noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Rosser, talked about electric vehicle infrastructure. In our coalition agreement, we are committed to mandate a national recharging network for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles. Detailed planning work will need to establish how many charging points and what type of technology will be necessary to achieve that commitment. Understandably, motorists fear not being able to recharge away from home, but the reality is that most journeys will not require a recharge because they are so short.

Many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Rosser, Lord Clinton-Davis and, particularly, Lord Davies of Oldham, talked about Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. In addition to our commitment in the Queen’s Speech to reform the economic regulation of airports, in a Written Ministerial Statement on 15 June, we announced the creation of a taskforce made up of key players from across the industry. Their remit will include identifying and investigating options for making the best use of this capacity, including the scope for improving airport efficiency, reducing delays and enhancing the passenger experience. Our plans for a national high-speed rail network linking our major cities and including links to Heathrow and, potentially, other airports, could provide passengers with an alternative for many short-haul journeys, which would ease some of the pressures on airport capacity. Heathrow will continue to be our international hub airport, with particular focus on long-haul operations, but our judgment is that the environmental impacts of a third runway, both local and global, are simply unacceptable. Our priority is to develop sustainable growth in a low-carbon economy less reliant on aviation. A key element will be promoting high-speed rail which offers an alternative for many short-haul flights.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, talked about the problem of volcanic ash. With regard to ash and aviation, safety is obviously paramount. In response to this unprecedented volcanic ash situation, aviation authorities followed clearly established international protocols. The whole of Europe has been in the same position acting according to the same aviation safety rules ensuring that safety was not compromised while uncertainties remained about ash concentrations. Europe’s initial reaction to this unprecedented volcanic ash situation was to follow established international guidance based on experience that aircraft should avoid encounters with volcanic ash. The Government and the Civil Aviation Authority continue to work with the industry to facilitate work on this programme.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, talked about aviation growth outside the south-east. We have not yet decided on airport expansion at airports other than Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, but have created a task force, chaired by my right honourable friend the Aviation Minister and made up of key players from across the industry to develop a fresh approach to making best use of existing infrastructure and to improve passenger experience.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, in his interesting speech, talked about the problem of equal pay in the shipping industry. The European Commission’s view is that Section 9 of the Race Relations Act 1976, which currently allows seafarers on UK flagged ships to be paid differential rates of pay according to their nationality, is in breach of European law. We agree that Section 9 is in breach and propose to use a regulation-making power within the Equality Act 2010 to correct the position. We are aware of the possibility that some ship owners may flag away from the UK if differential pay is outlawed and there remains the option of allowing differential pay for non-EEA nationals if the Government wish to do so. We are aware of the serious concerns of interested parties and are anxious to test the arguments and evidence before reaching a conclusion.

The noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Berkeley, and the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, talked about cycling. The Government are keen to promote sustainable travel, including cycling and walking. Future central government spending decisions on walking, cycling and sustainable travel initiatives will be part of the spending review, but local authorities are still able to fund such initiatives through their grants from central government. The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, asked about the safety of cycling. I have to tell your Lordships that I was first on the scene of a very serious accident involving a cyclist and a lorry. There are a number of initiatives under way at present aimed at improving cycle safety, including the promotion of Bikeability, cycle training, promoting the Highway Code and safe road use, providing more safe cycle routes and guidance to local authorities on the design of safer road infrastructure, improvements to motor vehicle driver training and testing, and new measures on lorry mirrors to improve the visibility of cyclists and pedestrians. The noble Viscount also talked about motorcycle testing. He will be aware that my honourable friend Mr Mike Penning has instigated a review of this.

The noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Berkeley, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and others referred to the North review. Sir Peter North’s report covers a wide range of issues that we need to consider carefully with other government departments. In doing so, it is important that we investigate fully the economic impact of any suggested changes to the law, taking account of the current financial and economic situation. Our priority will be to tackle drink and drug driving in the most effective way possible to protect law-abiding motorists. We will respond to Sir Peter’s report in due course and I look forward to reading it carefully during the Summer Recess.

The Government have made a clear commitment to introduce devices for drug driving. The law does not need to be changed to permit screening either in a police station or at the roadside, but does require devices to be type approved by the Home Office. We hope to see a specification published before the end of the year so that devices can be assessed against the required standard. If devices meet the standard, or can be adapted quickly to do so, it may be possible to have drug screeners in police stations within a year or so.

[Lord Berkeley]

I thank the noble Earl for allowing me to intervene. Can he explain what the economic benefit is if 200 fatalities are avoided each year when the drink drive limit comes down? I do not quite see the link between the economics and death.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there are considerable costs involved in implementing Sir Peter’s report, particularly in terms of court time, the whole of the offender management system, and the result of banning people from driving when they are not currently being banned. There could be unintended consequences. I suggest that, as I will do, the noble Lord reads the report very carefully.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the issue of speed cameras. We recently announced reductions in local government funding, and road safety funding will contribute £38 million to the savings of £309 million from transport. It will be the responsibility of local authorities to decide how to manage these budget reductions in a way that will allow continued delivery of local priorities. The reduction in the road safety grant does not indicate a reduction in the importance that the Government place on this crucial area. We remain strongly committed to road safety, recognise the importance of local activity and therefore expect safety spending to remain a priority. That is precisely why we have recently written to local authorities asking them to continue to focus on and invest in road safety. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, pointed out, it is not particularly expensive, but leadership and guidance are necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and others referred to buses. The Government acknowledge the importance of good local bus services in providing access to facilities and employment opportunities, particularly for those without access to a car—a point strongly made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. We are committed to encouraging partnerships between bus operators and local authorities to improve these services. At the same time, there is huge pressure on the country’s finances and bus services must be economical. We are determined to get value for money from bus services supported by the public purse.

On the question of quality contracts, yes, they are in place. As the guidance related to quality contract schemes has been published in full, local transport authorities are perfectly entitled to consult residents on their plans to make use of the new regulations to improve local bus services for passengers as they see fit. The Government are waiting for the outcome of the ongoing inquiry into the local bus market before making any decisions on whether changes are needed to the current regulatory framework for bus provision.

The noble Lords, Lord Teverson, Lord Liddle, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Davies of Oldham, asked about road charging. The coalition agreement states:

“We will work towards the introduction of a new system of HGV road user charging to ensure a fairer arrangement for UK hauliers”.

The Secretary of State has ruled out for the duration of the Parliament national road pricing for cars on existing roads and any preparation for such a scheme beyond that time horizon. Details of how a national HGV road user charging scheme could operate and the delivery timescales are being actively considered. Any compensation mechanism for UK hauliers is for Her Majesty’s Treasury to decide.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised the issue of NATA, a subject which is very important to him. As noble Lords are aware, the coalition agreement of the Government promised to,

“reform the way decisions are made on which transport projects to prioritise, so that the benefits of low carbon proposals (including light rail schemes) are fully recognised”.

We will in due course consider to what extent the NATA framework should feature in this, alongside other inputs to prioritisation decisions.

I hope I have satisfactorily answered all the questions. Where I have not, of course, I shall write to noble Lords. We have heard many points of view, a lot of which I agree with and some of which provide me with food for thought. However, there is one thing above all on which we can agree: only through securing a system of safe and sustainable transport can we be confident of generating future economic growth and prosperity tomorrow.

Railways: Network Rail

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I never thought that I would get on to page two of the Sun so fast. No, the Government have made it clear in the coalition agreement that we support further electrification of the rail network, which helps to reduce carbon emissions and cut running costs. Clearly, though, we are in the early stages of the new Government and Ministers are considering the full range of transport policy to ascertain what is possible.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of Network Rail. We are supposed to be the Government’s organisation but I have to say that it is not working very well. Has my noble friend considered a mutual structure for Network Rail, which might fit in with its devolved interest and with giving more power to the people? That might also solve the problem of too many bonuses.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government have a commitment to review the structure of Network Rail, and we will do so.

Transport: Savings

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can reassure the House that this Government take their environmental obligations very seriously. The Department for Transport is focusing on improving efficiency while protecting priority areas, including green initiatives. The savings will include £112 million from direct departmental spend, £100 million from Network Rail, £309 million from local government grants, a proposed reduction of £108 million from the Transport for London grant and the deferral of £54 million from lower priority schemes.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am very grateful to the noble Earl for that breakdown of the first cut of the big cuts. I refer him to the coalition’s programme for government, which confirms what he said—that there is a joint ambition to create a low-carbon economy. Could he then tell the House why, in that list of cuts he quoted, there was nothing about a Highways Agency reduction in construction? Will we see road building continue while all the sustainable forms of transport are cut?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his question. I can reassure him that the Highways Agency will take its fair share of reductions in the DfT’s direct spend, including £37 million from the deferral of planned spend in 2010-11 on a small number of Highways Agency schemes. Together, these savings represent a reduction which is in proportion to that being made to Network Rail and local government funding.