Employment Rights Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 23rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Monks (Lab)]

My Lords, I oppose Amendment 147. The compromise formula that my noble friend Lord Barber has just talked about was a very practical solution to a tricky problem in the period when the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and his committee did such good work. However, I take issue with his claim that it was some kind of permanent solution, any more than was an agreement on contracting out reached by the Thatcher Government in 1984, headed by the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, who I am sorry is not in his place today, with the TUC. The provisions of that meant that the unions would be obliged to notify people regularly about the right to contract out, in the union journal and on the website, along with all the kinds of things that unions communicate with members about.

It is worth briefly dwelling on that. It stipulated obligations on unions, as I said—and we thought that we had a lasting settlement then, but we were wrong. In 2016, the then Government came along with a Bill to provide for general contracting in; they did not initially mention the King-TUC agreement and gave no initial examples of union abuses of it. They had made no approaches to the TUC or to any unions about things that were not quite working. The certification officer was happy with what was going on. It seemed to me that the Government at that time were either forgetting about the agreement—which they might have done, I guess, given the interval—or ignoring it. Only when I gave notice to the noble Lord, Lord King, that I was going to raise the question of the agreement in this Chamber in the initial debates on the Bill did the Government embark on a frantic quest to find examples of union non-compliance, which were later challenged by the TUC.

The Burns committee did its work and came up with a good deal—but why should it be regarded as permanent, any more than the TUC-King agreement was regarded as permanent? There is another problem with the Burns formula being regarded as permanent. Initially, in 2016, the bulk of union members remained contracted out only; it was only the new members that unions had to actively recruit. Of course, in the past nine years, the relative proportion of contracted-out and contracted-in members has changed considerably. If we give it another nine years, as in the period from the 2016 agreement to now, there will not be many contracted-out members left. In effect, what we will have seen is that the Burns formula in practical terms becomes a phased introduction of contracting in—and that is just not acceptable.

This is not an attack on the Burns formula, far from it, but it was of its time, as was the TUC-King agreement. The only permanent solution to this historic and bitter issue—because the history that my noble friend Lord Barber spoke about is a bitter one—will be a fair agreement on the fundraising of all the political parties, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has spoken about already. I oppose the amendment.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, it will probably not surprise noble Lords that I support the amendment. This situation has cursed the whole of the trade union movement’s relations with the Labour Party for far too long. As some of you will remember, I am the president of BALPA, the pilots’ union, a non-political union that does not have a political fund. In so far as it has ever been discussed in the union executive, the unanimous conclusion has been that to have a political fund would be extremely divisive and not a path that we should go down.

To some people, the solution to this situation— I will not call it a problem—is to pass a simple law saying that trade unions cannot make political donations. If we are not prepared to accept this compromise, then that is what we are drifting towards. If we look at the Labour Party accounts, we see that it gets far more money from non-trade union sources than from trade union sources. When I went through the accounts, I saw that there was one very rich lady who appeared to give more to the Labour Party than all the trade unions put together. I am not sure that she was of British nationality, either. But that is irrelevant—the fact is that political funding has got completely out of control in both parties. We need reform, but one interesting thing is that the arguments of the Labour Party appear to be very similar to the arguments of the diehard Conservatives as to why we should not abolish the hereditary peerage; namely, that we should wait for comprehensive reform. We are probably not going to get a comprehensive reform of political donations in this way. I would suggest that the compromise from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, is a very good one. It has worked and has kept the peace for a long time.

There has to be clear consent—to my mind, clear consent is a quite reasonable thing. Why should you not ask for clear consent before you deduct money from people’s contributions? It seems like a no-brainer to me. I would suggest that we leave things in place, adopt the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and hope that this matter will go to sleep for at least another 10 years, during which time the parties will have as much time as they like to come up with reforms.

I should remind noble Lords that at the beginning of the Parliament Act 1911 on the reform of the House of Lords were the historic words “pending a full reform”. We are still told by Conservative Party Members that what is proposed by the Labour Party for the House of Lords is not a full reform. I have said, and will say it here, that we will never get one—we will never get that agreed.

I would like to see reform on the amount of money that people can put into political parties. I do not think that the people who put vast amounts of money into the Conservative Party do so because they have no expectation of any sort of reward. I think that they do it because they think that the Conservative Party will deliver what they want—whether that has happened is for them to now judge. The fact is that people do not support political parties other than with the aim of changing power and of getting changes in society.

My union general secretary, a certain Sharon Graham, has my full support, because for the first time in what I still think of as the T&G—my original union was AUEW-TASS—we have a general secretary who I think is fully behind the people who are paying her salary, and this is something quite different, but I think this demand is going to grow. If there was an open ballot in BALPA with a simple question, “Should we construct and set up a political fund?”, it probably would not get 10% in favour, because the whole way in which political funds have developed is not seen by the ordinary branch member as something they want to indulge in. Most of them see it as a sort of slush fund for the senior officers. I am sorry, but we have to face that and we need to get away from it.

So I hope that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, will be accepted and that we will carry on with the admittedly unsatisfactory present system until we get this full reform that we have been asking for, although it will be a long time after I have left this place.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

The speeches that have been made in this debate about an important issue are clear, and I strongly support those made on this side of the House. Because of the exigencies of where the issue arises in our consideration of the Bill, I have tabled manuscript Amendment 147A. Noble Lords may well be scratching their heads, but it is a manuscript amendment, which has been circulated separately, on a different subject, but it comes up at this point of the Bill. It has been brought to my attention by my union, Unite, and I need to declare that, but it is an issue of concern to all unions.

The unions strongly support the provisions in the Bill which introduce paid facility time for equality representatives. This is an important development and it is something for which unions have campaigned for some years. However, there is concern that there are some technical problems with the provisions in the Bill, which is why I need to raise them now. We are looking at Clause 62, which creates the right for paid time off for this new initiative of equality representatives in certain circumstances. It appears to me that there is a deficiency in the Bill, in that it says they are entitled to this time off for the purpose of consultation, but it is quite clear that these representatives will also be involved in negotiating. My manuscript amendment seeks simply to add “negotiating” in front of the existing provision in the Bill that says that these equality reps are involved in the process of consultation. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to give a favourable response to what is essentially a technical issue, but one which I need to raise now.

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[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 149, regarding broad workforce support. I was born and brought up in a working-class community that was specifically built to supply workers to build aircraft for a very large organisation employing thousands of people. As a teenager, I was lucky enough to get a job there, but I worked for a contractor which was not unionised. I remember going to the works canteen on the first day, and I was asked two questions: was I a member of a union and was I a Tory? The answer was no to the first one; as to the second one, I did not quite know because I was not old enough to vote, but perhaps I did turn out to be a Tory. I was asked to leave and told that if I was not a member of a union, I could not be in the canteen, so I left.

Because it was a tight-knit, working-class community, I was asked later by family, friends and relatives who worked at this factory why I did not go to the canteen. When I explained to them that I was not made welcome on the first day, they asked, “Who was it who said you couldn’t come in?” When I explained to them who it was, they said, “Oh, don’t take any notice of him, he’s a union convener”—I cannot remember the name of the trade union. Then I started to learn one or two things about trade unions. My noble friend Lord Balfe reminded me that there was a pecking order within the workforce. I learned that different trade unions represent different skill sets. I recall, because it was an aircraft factory, that if you were an electrician and a member of TASS, you regarded yourself as a superior trade unionist.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

We were.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

Some things have not changed. Then you had the mechanical engineers, the aircraft fitters, and so on and so forth: several different unions representing different members. I learned as a very young man that some unions are more militant than others and that a very small group of people could bring a whole aircraft plant to a halt.

I recall crossing a picket line. I was not a member of a trade union, but I was a contractor. A small group of trade unionists brought the plant to a halt. I turned up to work and wanted to go through the gates, and I was barred. But I was always taught to stand up to bullies, so I insisted on going through the gates—indeed, I did walk through the gates. I can remember to this day—and it is 45 years ago—the abuse I received as I walked through those gates to work as a young teenager. I still recall it, because every time I go to a Conservative Party conference I get a very similar amount of abuse. So some things have not changed.

The noble Lord, Lord Barber, rightly pointed out that trade unions are a force for good, because they look after their members in so many ways. Nobody across this House would argue with that. But the point of my amendment is that a small group of militant colleagues on the trade union side can bring the whole factory or organisation to a halt. Throughout this debate we have talked about SMEs; in this case I am talking about a very large organisation. It is the intimidation of the minority that affects the majority. Eliminating the 50% turnout threshold for strike ballots would significantly lower the bar for industrial action, allowing strikes to proceed if only a small minority of the workforce participates. This creates unpredictability and challenges for business continuity and planning, as substantial disruptions could occur based on the votes of a very limited number of employees.

In sectors where products are highly perishable, including the distribution of medicines or those with just-in-time supply chains, the ease of initiating industrial action increases the risk of supply chain interruptions. Some medical products have a limited shelf life. Strikes at distribution centres could lead to critical shortages, with direct consequences for public health and patient care. For industries that rely on seasonal production cycles, such as manufacturing and distribution of vaccines, removing the threshold places the delicate timing of mandatory deliveries at risk.

Even short periods of industrial action could jeopardise the ability to meet strict production targets and delivery deadlines, impacting public services and national preparedness. Lowering the requirements for strike action could deter domestic and international investors, who typically are seeking business environments with stable industrial relations frameworks. The potential for frequent or unpredictable strikes may lead to perceptions of elevated operational risk, discouraging long-term commitment across multiple sectors. The absence of a robust threshold may undermine industrial relations by encouraging strike action that lacks clear, broad-based support among employees. This could erode morale, create internal divisions and reduce trust between management and staff, ultimately affecting organisation productivity and the wider economy. I grew up in the 1970s; we do not want to go back to the 1970s.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

BALPA, the union of which I am president, does all those things without a political fund.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Political campaigning, which the noble Lord will know is clearly spelled out already in the legislation, requires some of these issues to be paid for out of the political fund, Indeed, my own union, UNISON, operates two separate political funds, as my noble friend Lord Prentis explained in Committee, one of which relates to the party-political affiliation and the other to the wider campaigning role. Of course, not all political party payments have gone to the Labour Party; they have gone to other parties and candidates as well.

The payments must be established through the democratic structure of the union. Those same structures make unions accountable to their members, who are free to participate in the democratic process to shape how those political funds are utilised. Joining a trade union is an informed decision and members will be made aware of their right to opt out of political fund contributions. Indeed, we have been careful to draft the Bill to ensure that new members will continue to be notified of their right to opt out on the membership form when they join the union. In line with the recommendation in the report of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, the membership form will also have to make it clear that opting out will not affect other aspects of their membership. Those changes should help to address concerns that trade union members were not always aware of their right to opt out of the political fund under the system that existed before 2016. If members wish to exercise that right to opt out, they are free to do so at any time.

We are not altering the arrangement for existing union members. If they decided to join a union with the knowledge that they would be opted out of political fund contributions, they will continue to be opted out once the Bill passes. As I hope I have explained, automatic opt-in will reduce the administrative burden on unions while still allowing members to make an active choice not to contribute to the political fund if they so wish.

I turn to Amendment 148 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and Amendment 149 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow. The existence of the 50% turnout threshold is not in line with the Government’s intention to create a positive and modern framework for trade union legislation—a framework that delivers productive and constructive engagement, reduces bureaucratic hurdles and respects unions’ democratic mandates.

The 50% threshold is a high bar and is not consistent with other democratic decision-making. Votes in Parliament and votes for MPs and local councillors do not normally include any turnout threshold but are not thereby considered any less legitimate. Indeed, most local elections are contested with a turnout below 50%—I am sure that a number of noble Lords who have previously been councillors have been elected on a less than 50% turnout—and nor, for the most part, do votes at general meetings of companies require any turnout threshold. Those who oppose industrial action are free to vote against it in a ballot, and they will have their voices heard in the normal way.

The Government have been clear about our intention to repeal the Trade Union Act 2016, including industrial action ballot thresholds, but the amendments would prevent the Government delivering on that manifesto commitment. I was pleased to hear the support of the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, for upholding our manifesto commitments, and I will remind him of that when we come to vote on these amendments.

The date for the repeal of the 50% threshold will be set out in regulations at a future date, with the intention that it is aligned with the establishment of e-balloting as an option for trade unions. Together with the delivery of modern and secure workplace balloting, the intention is that this will ensure that industrial action mandates will have broad and demonstrable support.

As I expected, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, talked about the doctors’ strike. The Secretary of State has held constructive meetings with the BMA resident doctors committee to try to avert strike action by discussing how we can work together to improve the working lives of resident doctors. However, the BMA RDC has refused to engage in further discussions and has instead chosen to proceed with its planned strikes. Our view is that strikes have a serious cost to patients, so once again we urge the BMA to call them off and instead work together to improve members’ working conditions and to continue rebuilding the NHS.

On Amendment 149ZA tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, the Government have made it clear that we do not intend to make sectoral carve-outs for the limitations and conditions that apply to industrial action. That is demonstrated by our repeal of the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act and the repeal of the 40% support threshold for industrial action ballots, both of which remove the further conditions on industrial action that currently exist in some public services.

Ensuring that statutory notice periods for industrial action are consistent across every sector will ensure that the rules are straightforward and clear to all parties involved in industrial action in every circumstance. It is then for employers in each sector to be mindful of these rules and manage their industrial relations and businesses accordingly.

I also want to make it clear that repeal of the 14-day notice period forms part of our manifesto commitment to reverse the Trade Union Act 2016. Following the outcome of our public consultation on creating a modern framework for industrial relations, we decided that a 10-day notice period for strikes was the appropriate balance between giving employers time to prepare and upholding the right to strike. It is also a minimum, not a maximum, period and employers will be able to plan for industrial action long before receipt of a notice.

Our approach is not an outlier. The UK will still provide one of the longer industrial action notice periods in Europe. Many European countries have shorter or no notice requirements on industrial action, while also requiring airlines to comply with the EU version of Regulation 261/2004. We are aware that under Regulation 261/2004 an airline may be liable to pay passengers compensation if it cancels a flight less than two weeks before its scheduled departure. But even under the current 14-day industrial action notice period, in practice airlines may therefore still be liable to pay compensation if they need to cancel flights due to industrial action.

I turn to Amendments 149A and 150, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. As the period of disruption between 2022 and 2024 has shown, administrative requirements and bureaucratic hurdles only make it more difficult for trade unions to engage in good-faith negotiations with employers. This is why we are substantially repealing the Trade Union Act 2016 and fixing the foundations for industrial relations that have not delivered for workers, employers or unions in the meantime.

Legislation governing picket lines is, of course, essential and, to be clear, we are repealing only those additional measures introduced by the Trade Union Act 2016 in relation to the role of a picket supervisor. Substantially repealing this in the Act is also a manifesto commitment, while other legislation relating to picketing will remain in place. Picketing must take place at a lawful location, it must be peaceful and those on picket lines must not intimidate or harass workers who choose to attend work. The existing Code of Practice on Picketing, once updated to remove the requirement for a picketing supervisor, will continue to support the legislation on picketing. Together these are sufficient to ensure the operation of peaceful picketing.

The Government’s impact assessment on the repeal of the Trade Union Act 2016, published in October 2024, set out the expected impacts of the removal of the requirement for a picketing supervisor and is available for all to read. The assessment shows limited evidence of serious problems on picket lines prior to the introduction of the 2016 Act, and there remains limited evidence of problems on picket lines in more recent years. The assessment concluded that it is therefore unlikely that the removal of the additional legal requirement to appoint a picketing supervisor will have a noticeable effect on the impact of picketing during disputes. There is nothing new to add to that assessment; we are simply returning the law on picketing to what it was prior to 2016 when it was working well and understood by all parties.

I turn to Amendments 152A and 152B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley. I think on previous occasions the noble Lord has reminded us of his role as treasurer of the Conservative Party, although he did not on this occasion. Clauses 77 and 78 of the Bill, which these amendments would—

Pensioners: Shoplifting

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The survey that has generated this Question was undertaken by one security firm, which found that only 5% of “pensioners” were undertaking shop theft. It defined “pensioners” as people aged over 50. It was complete, false nonsense, so before we go any further, let us just kill right now the argument that pensioners are a particular focus for shop theft. They are not. It is criminal organised gangs and that is where the Government are focused.

My noble friend mentioned a range of issues to do with challenges that pensioners face. We are protecting the poorest pensioners through the winter fuel allowance, ensuring that we can maintain the triple lock, and supporting pensioners generally. Even with all those measures, it is not acceptable for anybody to walk into a shop and steal something off the shelf, because that is a criminal act and it ensures costs go up for everybody else, including pensioners who obey the law. It is not acceptable, and I hope that we can focus in the Crime and Policing Bill on how we tackle shop theft as a whole.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I note that the Minister is about to have a meeting with a group of people dealing with this issue. Can he assure me that the trade union movement will be involved in that? I spent some time working for the Co-op many years ago. It is very frightening when people walk into a shop where you are employed and steal—that is what it is—the merchandise. Can I have an assurance that the trade union movement will be included in his consultation?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I should declare an interest in that I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and have been since 1979. I am fully in contact with the members of that union, who do a great job in supporting shop staff and shop presence. What staff should not face is attacks from individuals when they uphold the law on cigarette sales, alcohol sales or other sales. In fact, I moved an amendment some years ago to ensure that protection was in place. It was defeated by the then Conservative Government. I am very proud to say that I shall be moving the same Motion in the Crime and Policing Bill and that it will be passed by my colleagues.

Asylum: UK-Rwanda Agreement

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am reminded of a saying of John Major’s: if you are in a hole, stop digging. I will be supporting the Government tonight. I am not sure that this is the solution to the problem that we have before us. There is a big contradiction: we hear about vulnerable immigrants in Calais, but we also hear about migrants who spent thousands of dollars to get there. The prospect of a trip to Rwanda is not going to put them off getting a boat across the channel, so let us regard that as a starter.

Let us look at what Rwanda is actually up to. It was very anxious to get into the Commonwealth—virtually the only Commonwealth country that we did not manage to colonise, but we let it in. Now, I see the Rwanda business as being rather like putting old people into private equity homes. Rwanda has spotted that there might be an opportunity for making quite a bit of money out of the West—particularly the United Kingdom—and so it has signed up to this. We can well ask: is it a safe country? Is anywhere in Africa particularly safe? I cannot think of any country in Africa that I would wish to go and live in. Perhaps it is safe: we do not know. That, however, is not the point. The fact of the matter is that even if it is declared safe, we are going to get 200 to 300 people there out of thousands who are coming to Britain.

We need to look at this more widely, as one or two noble Lords have mentioned. We need to realise that the whole international migration system has got out of hand. It is not whether or not people are any more vulnerable, it is the fact that, with modern technology, they can look at their iPads and work out that this would be a much better place to live than where many of them are at the moment. That is why there are smuggling gangs: they are catering to the market. It is as simple as that. They set up in business, saying, “What shall I do? Shall I run a bike repair shop? Shall I sell chapatis on the corner of the street? Oh no, I think I could make a lot more if I got a smuggling operation together”. That is what is happening. If we are going to cure it, we have to do it as a European entity.

I noticed today that Prime Minister Meloni of Italy has gone to see President Erdoğan in Turkey to talk about migration. But it is no good just one Prime Minister and one President talking about migration. This has to be a European step forward. We have to start off by rebuilding the countries of the Middle East that we smashed to pieces. We caused Libya to be a failed state; we were the people who went into Iraq in very dubious circumstances; we were the people who, I was assured by the last Foreign Secretary-but-eight, had to get rid of Bashar al-Assad, even though he was running a country that was certainly authoritarian but was pretty peaceful. What did we do? We bombed it to bits. So the first thing we have to do is get prosperity back and the second thing is to get agreements at a European level on a much wider basis. That is the solution.

I have read the report and I think it is very good. I am not going to vote for it, however, because I am going to support the Government in their attempts—which probably will not work—to deal with this problem. We have to decide whether we wish these efforts well or ill.

We seldom talk about the famed people of Britain, but I can tell you that in Cambridge, where I live, there is no big queue of people saying, “Can we have a few more boats? Can we have an asylum centre in Cambridge?” It is just not there. So we should come to terms with reality. These are my final words: the difference between this and another system is that in a democracy the people vote, and they are entitled to have their votes translated into action. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the people want illegal migration to stop. The job of the Government is to do that.

Citizens’ Rights (European Affairs Committee Report)

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, first, I add my thanks to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for this report. I am not a member of his committee, but I follow what it does. I am afraid I am still an unrepentant remainer—leaving the European Union was a disaster.

My first point is about paper documents. In this country, we sometimes overlook the fact that in most of Europe, paper documents and paper residence permits are extremely important. I do not know of any country in Europe, although Estonia may be one, that does not issue paper documents. The Government should look at some way around this.

I turn to the situation of people living in the European Union and ask the two other party representatives here to tell us what their views are. It seems to me that when we talk about people in Europe, we pretend they do not exist, but they very much exist now they have votes, and we are coming to an election. I would like to see at least one of the parties, preferably the Labour Party because it is more likely to form an alternative Government, come out very clearly and say that it will move as far as it possibly can towards restoring free movement in both directions. We benefited enormously from free movement both in Europe and from people coming from Europe. It seems there are 1.2 million people there and, thanks to our Government, many of them will now have a vote. This is not a small number. It could well swing one or two marginal constituencies, and all the parties need to have a very clear policy about what they are going to do to help our citizens in Europe get their rights, because this is quite fundamental and it is something that can appeal to them.

I have been to Spain to speak to some of our expatriates who live out there, and it is a very big issue. They feel somewhat ignored. I ask that the parties look at the way in which they can make life better for people in Europe, and appeal to them—in other words, put it in the manifestos, boost and bring back the UK national support fund and work with the various migrant groups. Most of the groups in Europe have UK associations, and most of them work and pull people together. They need a message from the political parties in this country that they are wanted and valued—and we are told that there are 1.2 million such people to appeal to.

That is the main reason why I spoke. The second reason, which I have already mentioned, is that I want to see a party committed to bringing back as many of the benefits of the European Union that we have lost as they can. Within the area of citizens’ rights and free movement, a lot can be done, and it will benefit Britain. This is not charity but sheer common sense.

National Security Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 21st June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that a number of foreign Governments seek to subvert our democracy and in many cases that means seeking to influence political parties, particularly the governing parties. All parties are looking for finance; the temptation is to accept that money. I rise mainly to applaud the colleagues who have spoken before, and particularly to adopt what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said so well about the inadequacy of the current safeguards.

I congratulate the Government on organising the two-day conference on the reconstruction of Ukraine. Understandably, it is focusing mainly on financial reconstruction, but I have just come from a parallel conference on restoring, or improving, democracy in Ukraine, which involves looking particularly at the political parties. What sort of example are we giving to Ukraine if we allow these loopholes to continue? How do we inoculate Ukraine against possible subversion from Russian oligarchs and others? How do we inoculate ourselves and our own democracy from similar attempts? I think of the phrase “sunlight is the best disinfectant”, which is attributed mainly to the great American jurist, Justice Brandeis, who was so towering in his intellect and legal knowledge. If we are to have the sunlight, the onus must surely be on the Government, or anyone else who seeks to block that sunlight, to give good reasons why they should do so, because we know that there are malign forces seeking to subvert our democracy.

We need an active citizenry and a committed democracy to counter these sorts of attempts. I believe the response of the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and others have shown so well, is inadequate to that task.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I will take just two minutes, because when I vote against the Government, I generally listen to the debate and have a clear view. Democracy is being bought. This is part of a very difficult proposition that we have. I completely support the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I am also concerned at the amount of money that goes into political parties in Britain, because it is just not true that people pay for nothing. We need to look at the whole structure of party financing.

I have been many times to Ukraine, which has just been mentioned. It is not just foreign financing; one of the curses of Ukraine was oligarchs buying political parties and buying seats in the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian parliament. We have to look at what we call democracy and how it functions if we are allowing so much money to go into it from basically pretty covert sources.

I would like to see a very strict limit on donations. I am delighted in some ways that the Labour Party is now reported as getting millions every quarter—but this is not the way forward, any more than it is for our party. We have to find a better way of doing it. To all those people who deride state funding, I say that at least it is in the open and is based on the number of votes.

I will support the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I see this as a much wider thing. I will also support the Motion about the Intelligence and Security Committee. The noble Lord, Lord West, made an excellent speech outlining why we should, and I have nothing to add to it. We need a fundamental look at the way we fund democracy in this country.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I do not think there are evil people involved in this and I have not gone down the moral/immoral route. I am concerned, genuinely, with ensuring that the electorate and citizens of this country do not feel that parliamentary discussion uses international treaties as an excuse to not do what they anticipate that Parliament was asked to do. For example, this could be about the abolition of the Vagrancy Act. Let us be honest; a lot of promises have been broken recently. I have heard excuses made for why we have not yet abolished that Act. I have heard excuses for why we can no longer get rid of tuition fees, and for why leasehold will not be abolished—

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

The noble Baroness will recall that we had a referendum to leave the European Union. Many of us opposed that, but it was the clear will of the democracy of this country that we left. Surely, on these international obligations that we are saying we are bound by, if the demos—the people of Britain—feel that they wish not to be bound by them, that is perfectly legitimate. We have to find a way to carry the wishes of the people into legislation and not use international agreements to say that the wishes of the people must be ignored.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I am coming to an end. I understand the noble Lord’s point and I am endeavouring to explain that I think those international agreements are being used in a particular political way on this issue. I have suggested that breaching promises to the British electorate—I was trying to give some examples across party lines, so that nobody would think I was having a go at any one party—is leading to cynicism and bitterness in the electorate. The low turnout at the local elections was an indication of the fact that many people feel politically homeless.

I do not necessarily support the Bill. I want it to be scrutinised by this House, but I felt that the amendments I was referring to were almost avoiding scrutiny by simply ring-fencing the whole nature of the Bill and saying, “You can’t do that because of international treaties”. That would seem to render us even trying to scrutinise the Bill a waste of time and it will lead to even more cynicism about the lack of democracy. That is my point and it has nothing, as it happens, to do with Brexit or the EU. Although the desire to control one’s borders and one’s laws was undoubtedly part of that, I was not making that point in this instance.

National Security Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 13th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, as I set out at Second Reading, the first responsibility of any Government is to ensure the safety of their citizens. National security is at the forefront of this Government’s agenda, and that is why the passing of this Bill is so important. It gives us a new toolkit to tackle those state actors who threaten the safety and security of the United Kingdom. By listening carefully, and working closely with your Lordships through the passage of this Bill, we have created legislation which is stronger, more targeted and shows the importance of the scrutiny that this House provides.

We have made a range of changes to this Bill since its introduction, such as significantly tightening Part 1 in response to concerns relating to journalistic freedoms. We have amended the “ought reasonably to know” test to put it beyond doubt that individuals would not be caught if they acted unwittingly or without genuine knowledge as to the effect of their conduct. Further, we have focused the political tier of the foreign influence registration scheme more explicitly on foreign powers, providing us all with more information about the scale and nature of foreign political influence in the United Kingdom. We have also, under Clause 30, created a targeted defence available to UKIC and the Armed Forces for the extraterritorial offences under Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 in specific circumstances, replacing the previous approach of disapplying those offences.

I also note that the Government will bring back the sensible amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, to restrict the defence to intelligence activity of the Armed Forces, during Commons consideration of these amendments. We have extended the oversight provisions which were included in Part 2 on introduction of the Bill to cover Part 1 as well. We have also amended Schedule 3 to the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act, so that the statutory oversight for those powers will now be the responsibility of the new independent reviewer of national security legislation, ensuring that the oversight of all state threats provisions is in one place. The Government recognise the importance of independent scrutiny, and I know noble Lords welcome the inclusion of a new reviewer for the Bill.

I shall now speak briefly to the minor and technical amendments we have tabled today. Together, these amendments clarify definitions related to decisions of the devolved Administrations in Clauses 14(4)(a) and 71(3)(b) for the offence of foreign interference and the political influence tier of FIRS. These amendments will also clarify which officeholders in Scotland and Wales to whom a communication is sent are caught by Schedule 14 as set out in Clause 71(2)(a). I want to provide some context to these changes. We took the opportunity on Report in the Lords to clarify the drafting so as to ensure our policy intention in relation to government decisions was clear on the face of the legislation. We replaced the phrase

“a decision of the government of the UK”

through Amendments 50 and 118, with

“a Minister of the Crown (within the meaning of the Ministers of the Crown Act 1975), a United Kingdom government department”.

In doing so, we identified that the definitions did not fully reflect the decision-making powers of the devolved Administrations and their Ministers, but we wanted to make sure we got this drafting right, so we have worked closely with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations before tabling these amendments. Amendments 1 to 8 achieve the same effect as those tabled on Report mentioned above.

Amendments 1 and 4 relate to drafting changes for Clauses 14 and 71 respectively. They contain revised definitions for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to ensure parity for all Governments within the United Kingdom. Amendments 2, 3, 5 and 6 are consequential amendments flowing from Amendments 1 and 4. Amendments 7 and 8 relate to the definitions in Schedule 14, which covers those officeholders to whom communication is caught under Clause 71(2)(a). It is vital that the UK is able to promote transparency within the political lobbying arena and tackle those who seek to interfere in our democracy at every level and in every part of the United Kingdom. That is why these amendments are so important, and I ask noble Lords to support their inclusion in the Bill.

Finally, in terms of tabled amendments, there is also a change to the Long Title of the Bill to reflect the changes made on Report to the foreign influence registration scheme. I beg to move.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I briefly thank the Minister. I have heard from the stiftungs that we intervened on behalf of, and they thank the Minister for the movement that has happened and look forward to working closely with us in the future. I think it is as well to place these thanks on the public record.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I still feel quite grumpy about the Bill, but I accept that the Government have moved a little. I very much hope that, when it gets back to the other place, Members there will perhaps see fit to introduce stronger protections for journalists. I understand that something has gone into the Public Order Bill, but I think something should have been in this Bill as well.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness and I entirely accept her correction. She is quite right about the figure of 100 million: it is displaced persons. On her second point, I am afraid I do not accept that it would be appropriate to exclude everyone under 18 from the operation of the scheme, and it is obvious why that should be: sadly, such an exception would generate very great abuse.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, this is certainly not an ideal Bill, but the problem it seeks to address has been around for a long time. In my view, it lost us the referendum, which was a big tragedy.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

It won us the referendum.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

It won the noble Lord the referendum, but it lost me the referendum. The key point surely is that we live in a democracy. The people are demanding action in this area loud and clear, and it is our duty as a Government to deliver what the public want. The public want the boats stopped, so I hope that we can have a discussion on the basis of making the Bill work, not wrecking it.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend.

National Security Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 1st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I completely support what has been said by my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire in moving our Amendment 75, in respect of the exclusion of NATO members from the definition of foreign power, for all the reasons he gave and that I gave in Committee.

Put shortly, we cannot see any valid reason for treating NATO members as foreign powers on the same basis as Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. We are tied to our NATO allies by a treaty which imposes binding mutual obligations of defence and support. I have considerable understanding for the concern and disappointment expressed in public and in the press by representatives of some friendly nations of that unflattering equivalence of treatment. Those feelings mentioned by my noble friend Lord Wallace are not helpful to British foreign policy or diplomacy.

I also cannot see why the Government would not regard it as positively helpful to have the power to add friendly nations to a list of countries that will not be regarded as foreign powers for the purposes of this legislation. It may be that the Government will conclude in due course, even if not now, that the inclusion of all friendly countries as foreign powers may be profoundly unhelpful to our national position. To have the power, if that transpires, to exclude countries from the definition by regulation, may be regarded then as thoroughly convenient. Why will the Government not accept the flexibility that this part of the amendment offers?

As to the exclusion of governing political parties from the definition of foreign powers, this was an amendment we moved in Committee and which we supported then, and support now, for many of the reasons mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, in support of Amendment 74. We see no basis for categorising all political parties that form any part of a foreign Government as foreign powers, as proposed in Clause 32(1)(e). It is unrealistic, it makes no sense and it is wrong in principle.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, this is the definition of foreign powers that governs the application of FIRS, as well as Part 1 and other parts of the Bill. It could cause all kinds of difficulties where there are coalition Governments, often without UK-style collective responsibility. It is also the case that political parties are themselves diffuse in their views and often divided. To equate all governing parties with the foreign powers in whose Government they take a part—often a small part—is, we say, profoundly misguided. Perhaps the Minister could explain how the Government justify treating even small coalition parties as the Governments of which they form a part?

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I think that this part of the Bill was drawn up by someone who had not travelled very widely. It really just does not make sense.

I speak particularly to Clause 32. I do not exactly spend all my time, but I do spend a good bit of it, talking to embassies in London, largely from European Union countries that I have known for some time. I also go to Brussels very regularly because I still have interests there. I meet many people from other parties and groups—for a time I was a member of the Belgian Christian Democrat party—and I wonder where this lands. Of course, in some countries—Belgium is one—you will always have a coalition; it moves around, but it is always there.

There are also many other groups—for instance, the Kangaroo Group in Strasbourg covers all of the European Union and exists to pull down barriers to trade. I am a member of that group still because it has a foreign membership category. What are we supposed to do? Incidentally, the Kangaroo Group was set up by Basil de Ferranti, a British Conservative—though it is now a long time since he has been with us. This is a bit of a mess.

I want to deal in particular with Germany, which has a long tradition of political foundations. It has the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung, which I do lectures for from time to time; I will be doing one later this month. It has the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung, which is the socialist, or social democrat, one. It has the Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung, which is, if I remember rightly, the one from the liberal party, and it has the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung from the Greens. They all engage in trying to hold international conferences and gatherings to put across their policies, and they also invite people like me, who are reasonably well known in Germany, to go and give lectures and talks to members of their Stiftung. Part of the reason for that is to educate their own citizens in overseas political practice; it is not all one-way. I think we have missed something out here.

The Minister will say that it will not mean this and it will not mean that, but other people have looked at this Bill and at the explanations. In particular, the German foundations have concluded, reading this draft law on entities acting on behalf of a foreign power—under the law, Germany is a foreign power; that is the definition —that, if they are to get money from their Stiftung to do any work in Britain, the Stiftung will have to satisfy the German Government that it is legitimate to accept and apply for that money.

According to the German lawyers, Clause 31(2)(c), which says that any work carried out

“with financial or other assistance provided by a foreign power for that purpose, or … in collaboration with, or with the agreement of, a foreign power”,

means that the Stiftungen will fall under the scope of the registration scheme. In other words, if the Stiftungen are to be able to operate and satisfy their funders, they will have to satisfy them about this clause in our legislation. This means that a German Stiftung—a political foundation—that receives German taxpayers’ money, or for that matter a cultural institute, Chamber of Commerce or any London-based NGO or think tank that receives money from Germany, is an agent of a foreign power and has to register, according to the definition, every single interaction with UK politicians or high-ranking officials within 28 days. They have described this as making their lives “impossible”. I say to the Minister that it is not what we say the law means; it is what it means to a lawyer, and in this case what it means to a German lawyer.

I cannot agree that the concept of “foreign principle” has been removed. It has been removed and replaced with “foreign power”, but this does not cover what is needed. The fact of the matter is that, in the Minister’s letter, he very carefully said:

“Foreign opposition parties are not classed as foreign powers (for example the French Socialist party).”


That is not the German interpretation of our law. The Minister can shrug his shoulders, but the sensible way forward would be to accept an amendment such as the one put down by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, which makes it quite clear that these countries are not foreign powers for the purpose of this legislation. I invite the Minister to think carefully and come back at Third Reading with a much better definition. This general, catch-all “foreign powers” covers all of NATO but also, as has been mentioned, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Where are we going? Please could the Minister think it out a bit better and clarify it, possibly along the lines of the amendment, but certainly so that the people we deal with every day, who are cheerfully telling me about the attitude of the British Government to the reconstruction of Ukraine—which is not quite what the British Government are saying but is what the diplomats are picking up—can continue to brief us and keep us on top of things?

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to ask the Minister a question. I support what has been said by my noble friend Lady Hayter and the noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Marks, but is Clause 32(1)(e) not possibly a case of government overreach? When it is listed that a political party involved in a Government of a friendly power should be included in the Bill in this way, does it imply that every member of that political party would be covered by this provision? Are we talking about the headquarters of a political party or the membership? That would involve so many people, I wonder whether the Government really mean to do that and, if so, whether they realise what an incredible extension and overreach that might represent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his clear explanation. There remains a slight degree of uncertainty. Presumably the Government will issue guidance to be put in place before the scheme is operational. We raised this at our meeting with him.

I wonder whether, in advance of us considering FIRS next week, we could have more information about what the draft guidance will look like as part of the engagement that the Minister has committed to, which is welcome. We have seen some elements of the draft regulations and heard some explanations from the Government but, if he could expand on what the draft guidance might be, that would provide some reassurance to the Stiftungen and other organisations that are hurriedly trying to find out where they fit in this area around what a foreign power will be and the interaction with either intermediaries or those who are funded by them. It is hard to outline that in the Bill but, if the Minister could provide that information in advance of next week, it would inform us very well.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, before the Minister comes back, could either he or a representative of the Government talk to the German ambassador and clear up this difficulty because the Germans are quite convinced that they are caught by this? It would be good if he could come back here and say, “I’ve spoken to the German ambassador or the First Secretary and we have agreed this”. Otherwise, the confusion will carry on.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, in answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I cannot make any promises but I will certainly try. In answer to my noble friend Lord Balfe’s question, as I said in my initial answer to him, we have engaged extensively with the German Government.

Public Order Bill

Lord Balfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

I am sure that even noble Lords who support the intention of these so-called buffer zones—in reality, zones of censorship for basic free speech—would not want a scenario where people are subjected to unlimited fines and six months, or even two years, in prison for merely expressing opinions. There are those who quite often—daily—are protesting and holding the city of London and the travelling public along the motorways to ransom, with even ambulances and patients proceeding to hospital to get emergency operations or treatment being stopped in those protests, thereby threatening life and limb, yet the courts give those participating in such actions a slap on the wrist. When was the last time you ever heard, on a first offence, of six months’ imprisonment or two years or five?

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, has it not? We have spent almost as much time debating this clause, which was not, of course, part of the Bill in the first place, as the House of Commons spent debating the entire Bill. I broadly support my noble friend Lord Farmer’s amendment, but I support it because I want the Minister to go back and have a serious look at this clause, which was not a government clause in the first place.

I came into politics in the 1960s, and one of the first things I was involved in was supporting David Steel’s Act, so let there be no doubt as to where I stand on this issue, but I think we are getting two things mixed up. We are mixing up the need to protect people who decide to take advantage of a law that is on the statute book with harassment and other offences. The first question we need to ask is: do we need an extra law? Do we need it at all? Do we need Clause 9? It came in as a private Member’s initiative in the other place. I am not sure we need it. I think that in this past 70 years we have managed reasonably well on policing this.

I also draw attention to the fact that this whole wretched Bill, which we have now lost sight of because of this clause, is actually a fairly fundamental attack on many civil liberties which we cherish and believe in. I reflect that in the past couple of years, during the Covid epidemic, we have accepted restrictions on freedom which, in my view, were unwise, unwelcome, unwanted and unnecessary. We are now in a position where expressing statements—and you have only to look at some of the things online about Covid—is no longer acceptable. We are in a position where we have a very authoritarian undertone in the way in which public discourse in Britain is being conducted, and this is part of it. Unfortunately, these two things have got mixed up together.

I think that we probably do not need this clause at all. If we do need it—this is one of the jobs the Minister has—it needs to be sorted out substantially. I would like to think—and I do not wish to be part of it—that he calls together the various protagonists and tries to get some common sense out of this. I do not hold the other place in quite the same reverence as my good and noble friend Lord Cormack does. I think MPs probably saw something that was a very good press release come along and they voted for it. I think that was probably half the aim.

I hope that after tonight, before we get to the next stage, we will be able to look at this in cool sort of way, and we will then get back to the rest of the Bill, which has some points in it that I find deeply regrettable and is not the sort of Bill that I would like to see passed by this House, but this is not part of it. This was a bit of private initiative written on top of it, and it is fundamentally mixing up two things: the right of the citizen to protest and the right of another citizen to make use of a law that has been there a long time and is working. Of course, we do not want people to be harassed and the like, but we also want to keep a sense of proportionality in all of this, and we need to remember that a calm head is probably a very useful thing to have when you are faced with an emotive issue such as this.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am acutely aware of the time and, having spoken extensively in favour of Clause 9 at Second Reading, I rise briefly to express the Green group’s support for the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, who made an important point. I will also speak in opposition to the other amendments in this group and address some points in the debate that I think may have been perhaps rather pointedly aimed in our direction.

There has been some discussion about how other elements of the Bill are aiming to restrict protest and this is seen to be restricting protest, but there is something profoundly different here. There is nothing in Clause 9 that stops people who are opposed to abortion or the provision of abortion services protesting on the high street, outside Parliament or on the M25. They could choose to do that; there is nothing in Clause 9 that would stop that happening. That is calling for system change, that is directed at our politics, at the way our society and our law work, but there is a profoundly different situation where protest is directed at an individual person, a patient who is seeking healthcare or advice about healthcare, to discourage them from receiving that healthcare. One point that has not been raised tonight, that I think really should be, is the fact that there is a risk if someone is driven away by this protest, they then seek to access irregular services, which are now broadly available on the internet, at potentially great cost to their health and well-being.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said that this is a catch-all amendment in that it is seeking to have broad coverage across the country. That is the alternative, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, said, to having a postcode lottery, where some people whose councils can afford to take action have protection and other people, often in poorer areas of the country where councils do not have the money, do not have protection.

The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, was concerned about intimate pressure. Let us look at where pressure for an abortion comes from. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan referred to mothers who fear not being able to pay for a baby. It is not just fear; the practical reality is that the greatest pressure for abortion in this country comes from an inadequate benefits system. I note that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, has been prominent in campaigning for the end to the two-child limit. I will join him and anyone else who wishes to campaign against this inadequate system.

I have one final point which I think has not been addressed. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, questioned necessity. A number of noble Lords asked what has changed since 2018. What has changed is this. A huge amount of what we see in the UK has been imported from the United States of America. We have seen an extremely well-funded and emboldened movement coming from the US to the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred to his experience as a constituency MP. That was some time ago. Since then, and certainly since 2018, the levels of funding and pressure have changed. A movement started in the US is aiming to act around the world. I do not say that your Lordships’ House should stand up against this movement if it seeks to campaign to change the law in the UK—personally, I want to see full decriminalisation of abortion. I accept their right to campaign against the law and the system, but I will not accept their right to target individual patients seeking healthcare.