Northern Ireland

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Thursday 29th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

In accordance with the Belfast agreement there is a role for the Dublin Government in strand 2 and strand 3 issues, and that was the way in which the recent Stormont House talks were conducted.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, coming from Wales, my noble friend will know very well that there is quite a difficult balance between the devolved regions on the one hand having their own say and taking their own responsibility, and on the other having a proper relationship with Westminster and London. However, is she aware that, despite these difficulties, the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland has complained that it is easier for them to get a meeting with President Obama than with our Prime Minister? Will she convey to the Prime Minister’s Office that that is not the best way to show a full engagement with the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am sure that the Prime Minister’s Office will take note of my noble friend’s comments. However, it is absolutely clear that the Prime Minister was fully engaged in the Stormont House process and went to Northern Ireland to push the process along; indeed, a successful conclusion was reached very soon after that visit. I therefore reject the idea that the Prime Minister has not been engaged.

Northern Ireland: On-the-Runs Scheme

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for repeating the Answer. I recall some elements of this case because Mr O’Connor disappeared shortly after the IMC was formed and we reported as much as we knew at that time in the very first report of the IMC. What puzzles me a little at this stage is, the mistake having been made and having been reported on some time ago, was the coronial service not informed so that it would have known that bringing forward an inquest at this stage was not going to go anywhere? If it was informed, it seems puzzling. If it was not informed by the PSNI, surely that is a serious gap that adds insult to injury in terms of the disadvantage that the family have been put at, not to mention the coronial service itself.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend refers to the interlinking between the PSNI and the coroners service. It is important to bear in mind the independence of the PSNI. It must be free to pursue investigations. It is also important to bear in mind that this inquest has been ongoing for a number of years. Beyond that, it is not appropriate for me to comment on an individual case.

Northern Ireland: Talks Process

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement, to which I listened carefully. However, given that the Statement says that the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach judged that there was insufficient consensus for a broadly based agreement and that there is only one week in which to find any agreement, one is led to the conclusion that the best to be hoped for is for something to be cobbled together that could take us to the other side of the Westminster election, when the numbers of people elected, the balance of parties and coalitions and so on may be different.

However, I am struck by the fact that the Statement says:

“If there is no agreement before Christmas”—

a week away—

“we will not get this close”,

not for a few weeks but,

“for months or even years”.

One might take from that that there was an expectation on the part of the Government that we might be moving towards direct rule. Can the Minister confirm that before there could be any movement towards direct rule, there would have to be an election for a new Assembly in Northern Ireland, to give newly elected Members the opportunity to get into negotiations and to try to form a Government?

Secondly, can she confirm that if that were not achieved and there was direct rule, that there would be implementation—“press ahead” was the phrase used—of welfare reform, and, in the words of the Statement, the implementation of,

“a serious efficiency programme to make long-term savings”?

Can she confirm, too, that the Irish Government would have to be involved in all the cross-border bodies that are already in existence and—without doubt, given that the security situation would be likely to suffer—cross-border co-operation on security and justice issues as well?

It is important not just to pose these questions but to get an answer, because I have the sense that on both sides in Northern Ireland there is a failure to recognise the process that would ensue from lack of agreement, and the consequences for people from both sides in terms of welfare reform, efficiency savings and cross-border co-operation between the British and Irish Governments.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend makes some important points about the process to be followed. I start by saying that the agreement needs to be genuine, and not something cobbled together, because that would fall apart. My noble friend is right to point out that the Statement clearly says that the window of opportunity will close in the new year. The realities of the time in the electoral cycle make it difficult. If the Executive were to collapse, the first and immediate result of that would be an election, and only if we were unable to re-establish an Executive would it be possible to think of direct rule. There is no legislation in place for the re-imposition of direct rule. If direct rule were, very regrettably, the eventual outcome, it would have to be in accordance with the terms of the Belfast agreement. My noble friend is right to point out that there is a role for the Irish Government in those terms.

Northern Ireland: Haass Talks

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing this debate. Given the number of speakers who wish to take the floor, we all have a very short period of time. In a sense that is the important message. All of us in this House who know about Northern Ireland, particularly those of us who live there, wanted to speak tonight because we are worried about the situation. The noble Lord described it as fragile, even perhaps critical. He is absolutely right about that. The situation is deteriorating politically—not so much in security terms at this point, but politically it is extremely serious.

The problem with the Haass process is that people seem to feel that what we needed was a political agreement or a political fix. But that is not the case. It is not a question of bringing forward yet more proposals. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and his colleague Mr Bradley have produced excellent proposals. The problem is not that. It is getting people emotionally as a community to the point where they are prepared to accept them. Although people have signed up for parity of esteem, the truth is that there are many people in the republican and nationalist community who still act as though they were victims rather than as though there were parity of esteem—and there are those in the loyalist and unionist community who act as though they were still dominant, when in fact there is parity of esteem written into the legislation.

The British Government also have a responsibility in this. Devolution did not mean everything and all responsibilities being handed over to people in Northern Ireland. This was a three-stranded process. The British and Irish Governments were the driver for the peace process—making sure that things continued and in the end came to a good conclusion. They retain a responsibility for making sure that it does not all fall to pieces—and, by the way, it is in their interests. If the devolution component of the three strands disappears, we do not end up with direct rule back to Westminster, but with de facto joint authority, with the north-south institutions that are in place remaining in place, but with a responsibility on the part of British Ministers to engage with Irish Ministers. The north-south thing remains with the British-Irish component: so there is a relationship. Indeed, when it comes to security, if those republicans who have engaged in the political process find that it does not work, it will be the most profound encouragement to those republicans who never believed in the political process and will want to return to the pike—perhaps no longer in the thatch, as the noble Lord has referred to.

This is serious. I deeply hope that my noble friend can not just tell me that there is a process under way with the Secretary of State and her opposite number, but show an appreciation of the gravity of the political situation at present. It is serious. If this House does not find a way of encouraging the Government to take it seriously, we will find ourselves back having to deal with some of the really contentious issues that we had desperately hoped were no longer on our plate.

Hallett Review

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Thursday 17th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement from my noble friend and identify these Benches with the concern for the victims who have been spoken about by noble Lords on both sides of the House. However, we must do more than simply speak about our concern for the victims. We must act in a way that shows real concern.

A number of things have been revealed in this report—it is more than 270 pages long, so it is difficult to get a full assessment of it in such a time. Already it seems to me that some of the assessments are mistaken, including some of those identified in the Secretary of State’s comments. For example, she said that,

“the bulk of the report deals with decisions made by the previous government in respect of its handling of the political process”.

It seems to me that the bulk of the report is not about the decisions but about the process that led to the decisions. It is quite clear that the process was shambolic and was a whole approach to government from the very top. Decisions were not taken in a formal and proper way. I know that to have been the case during the process itself.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about not taking it to pieces and certainly not behaving retrospectively. However, some of us made criticisms at the time about the way in which it was being handled. Subsequently, many of the problems that we continue to experience are because of the unwise ways of reaching decisions about prisoners, weapons, dealing with the past and issues of that kind. It is quite clear that time after time Lady Justice Hallett identifies the failure to keep any list of pardons and the failure to keep any account of the decisions that were made. I think that this Government, as well as any future, never mind past Government, must learn about process. It is not sufficient to have this kind of sofa government, or any emblem of it, particularly when one is dealing with matters that are serious life and death issues and matters of law.

We have to go back and revisit those things to learn from them—not just to be critical, but to learn that we should not behave in that way again. I am afraid that the evidence is that the lesson has not yet been learnt. The Secretary of State is now saying, quite properly, that she will make sure that she informs Ministers in the devolved Government. That means that they were not properly informed before. We had a Bill yesterday where we were looking at legislation about arrangements for the NCA, and so on. It was quite clear that there was no discussion at an early stage with the Government of the Republic of Ireland and the Justice Minister there. I know that because I raised it with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, and the reply was almost, “What a shocking suggestion”. The fact is that we should have been doing those negotiations.

Of course we should not be unhelpfully critical, but we are here to hold government to account and to try to improve the processes. It is quite clear that some of those processes were seriously mistaken. As an emblem of that, I will put a specific question to my noble friend. Given that these letters gave reassurance, and were meant to give reassurance, to individuals that at the time of their issue they were not wanted for questioning by the PSNI or other forces, and given that we are told that the PSNI and others have not closed the cases, will the PSNI be formally withdrawing letters, or otherwise formally notifying individuals concerned if and when intelligence, information or evidence comes to hand that changes their status back to being wanted for questioning? I ask because if there is not a proper, formal scheme of withdrawal instigated, arrests and subsequent court cases could well be endangered again, as in the Downey case. I ask my noble friend for assurance on that, not because it is the only question but because it is symbolic of some of the failings of the past.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend asked about the royal prerogative of mercy and the failure to keep lists. In fact the royal prerogative of mercy is not used only in relation to terrorism cases. It is used very much more widely and it was used much more frequently in the past. Legislation has changed and enables the justice system now to deal with issues such as early release from prison in a different manner. It has simply not been the custom to keep lists of this nature, and I would say that in regard to the Northern Ireland Office investigations, it is not the case that the problem related entirely to the time of the peace settlement and the time of devolution. It predates and goes well back into the last century.

My noble friend referred to poor administration and organisation. The report by Lady Justice Hallett is very clear about the areas of poor administration. The key point she makes is that it was a system that evolved and was not created. The Government acknowledge that as time went on and the scheme developed and grew, failure to take the opportunity to review, update or risk assess the scheme added to the problems of the scheme.

My noble friend asked whether the Government were thinking of withdrawing the letters because of the dangers of impairing prosecution. Lady Justice Hallett recommended that the Northern Ireland Office should seek legal advice in conjunction with the police and prosecuting authorities on what to do in cases where errors may have been made. That process is already under way. The Police Service of Northern Ireland is reviewing all the cases. Lady Justice Hallett makes clear that that review will be thorough and will take years rather than months. However, she made clear that the judgment in the Downey case stood on its own facts; it was a judgment in the first instance which should not be applied to any other examples, and was not binding in any other cases.

I think my noble friend did us all a great service in drawing our attention again to the victims in this, for whose families today will not be easy. It is important to remember the names of those who died: Lieutenant Anthony Daly, Trooper Simon Tipper, Lance Corporal Jeffrey Vernon Young and Squadron Quartermaster Corporal Major Roy Bright. It is important that, as we have these discussions here today, we hold them in our minds and thoughts.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I want to speak in a more generic sense about what is literally going on at the moment and what is being contrived. I was grateful to the Minister for turning up at the meeting with the Secretary of State yesterday evening. I am somewhat disappointed that she has not preceded the amendment with a statement that would have clarified some of the points that we raised. It appears to me—and I think most people would accept—that we are being asked to legislate on Northern Ireland affairs while they are being blanketed over by secret deals and arrangements that are not in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, certainly not in the interests of the victims of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and not in the interests of those soldiers and policemen who, to try to bring peace to our part of the United Kingdom, gave their lives in considerable numbers.

The reality is that eight years ago, in the aftermath of the St Andrews agreement, secret deals were carried out not with one section of our society in terms of nationalist or unionist, but with one little caucus within one section of our society. Those arrangements were dishonourable in the extreme.

If I had had a relative die in Regent’s Park, I would not have a great deal of sympathy for a Government trying to build the future of Northern Ireland, given their attitude to one of the perpetrators of that outrage. I was closer to those victims than most in this Chamber, and that is why I challenge the Minister on this issue on their behalf. It is not always the case in another place but I always believed that this House was an exemplar of democracy and doing things correctly, not a place where we would seek to build on deceitfulness and sleight of hand, such as we have seen in respect of the post-St Andrews arrangements.

Before the Minister goes any further, will she address the reality of deceit that pervades the relationship between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom? Not to do so will leave unsatisfied people such as myself, people in Northern Ireland and, not least, the relatives of soldiers and members of the Army who may still be subject to investigation by the PSNI in respect of that unfortunate situation 40-something years ago, when we put young soldiers with no experience of crowd control into a very difficult situation in Londonderry. Perhaps she can tell me whether they are still under investigation by the PSNI. That situation was more than unfortunate; it is something of which we have been ashamed over the years. Some 40-something years on, people in my age group are sitting at home wondering when they will be hauled in front of the courts while the terrorists—the people who planned and murdered in cold blood—are given carte blanche in respect of their actions.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, from the start when there was discussion about reducing the number of Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I have expressed some concern about it. I have never bought the proposition that 108 Members was too large for Northern Ireland, because of the complexity of representation and the running of affairs in Northern Ireland. However, in a time of austerity, when the Assembly and Executive have not exactly distinguished themselves by the volume of quality legislation or governance that they have produced, there is without a doubt public pressure to reduce its size. At the same time, there is a substantial reduction in the number of elected representatives at municipal level and an increasing complexity in the running of events in Northern Ireland.

One thing that is clear, which we shall consider later, is that the Government want to give more and more responsibility to the Northern Ireland Assembly. If the Assembly were functioning well I would have no objections, but it has not been functioning well. Indeed, over the past week or two, given the recent events that were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, relationships between the parties at the most senior levels are worse than they have been for a long time. I therefore want again to express concern about this whole question of reducing the number of Members of the Assembly.

However, I value the amendment brought forward by the noble Baroness. It at least makes it clear that you cannot simply keep on salami-slicing the Assembly’s representation. However, there are often rather superficial views of the work and value of Assembly Members, as compared with the situation in Wales or Scotland, where the issues are completely different. Devolution was not brought to Northern Ireland for the same reasons for which it was introduced in Wales and Scotland. There were different requirements and functions in addition to all the important issues about making sure that governance is as close to the people as possible and so on. I want to flag that up.

It is impossible to ignore the fact that the whole structure is now somewhat shaken by the recent revelations about the on-the-runs letters issue. This is serious because for the past few years there has been within the unionist and loyalist community a sense of alienation. Whether that is justified is not the issue, but we all know that it is there. At the same time, we have elections coming up this year, next year and the year after, over which there are all sorts of anxieties and concerns within the unionist community and, indeed, more widely.

What troubles me somewhat about the general drift of the Bill is that it feels like some measure of disengagement. It is as though we are saying, “We’ve got a resolution with the Good Friday agreement. These are big boys and girls, and it is time to let them get on with things”. Not to be too trivial, it seems to me that it is much more like bringing up teenagers and adolescents, whereby you have to be there and not be there. There is no right way of doing it, but you always have to make sure that you are available because, as sure as eggs are eggs, problems will arise, and if you are not there to help out there will be tragedy.

In terms of administration, the Northern Ireland Office is a tiny affair. It is not quite back at the level that it was before the whole process began in Northern Ireland when Sir John Chilcot, who now has other responsibilities, was a junior official at the Home Office and part of his responsibility was all the Northern Ireland issues. It is not now quite at that level, but it is getting there. Even within the Northern Ireland Office as it is, there are very few people who remember what was necessary for the peace process. The institutional memory is almost threadbare. That is not the fault of the people who are there; it is just the reality of what happens over a period of time.

People may assume that everything will go swimmingly, simply because Northern Ireland is not so much in the news. Events over the past week or two have made it clear that there are serious issues to be dealt with. Why were Mr Haass and Dr O’Sullivan brought in? It was because there were problems regarding the legacy of the past that had not been resolved and were unable to be resolved by the devolved Assembly and Executive. So we did what we have done in the past and asked people to come in from outside to help us. However, it is clear that that did not work.

If the Assembly and the Executive are unable to address the issue, and if those eminent, thoughtful, committed and knowledgeable people who were brought in were unable to resolve it, it seems to me that it is incumbent on the British and Irish Governments at the highest levels to address the question of how we deal with the issues of the past. Although there are lots of matters that one can bring up regarding the on-the-runs letters, this is fundamentally about how we deal with the issues of the past, not just in terms of republicans but in terms of loyalists, and particularly those who served in the security forces over a long period, who still wonder what the future holds for them.

Without wanting to drag this out, I emphasise that it feels—although this may not be the case—as though there is an element of pulling back and disengagement in the drift of the Bill. What has happened in the past week or two has been a very clear demonstration that this is not a time for disengagement, emotional or otherwise. Rather, at the highest levels of government— I am talking about the level of Prime Minister and Taoiseach—there needs to be some responsible re-engagement between the British and Irish Governments and the leaders of the Executive in Northern Ireland to address the issues of the past and all that they mean. There should not be a feeling that we can simply shovel them back over the water and hope that everything will work out well. That is what happened between 1921 and the late 1960s.

For goodness’ sake, let us not make the same mistake of leaving things unattended to until it is too late and we then face an intolerable mess. That is not necessary and we should not do it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the discussions on this matter. The language that she is now putting before the House is better than the language we had before. However, I remain uneasy about the necessity for this provision at all. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred to a spirit which runs throughout the Bill, of a certain disconnectedness from the affairs of Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has also raised issues about elements within the Bill for which there is no obvious hunger in Northern Ireland. This is one of them. I am unaware of any particular local pressure, inside or outside the Assembly, on this point.

None the less, if there is to be devolution in this area, it is important to send a signal. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for meeting me and for having discussions with other noble Lords who are concerned about this matter. I am also very grateful to her officials for the work that they put in on this. At least now we are sending a signal that this Parliament believes, in principle, in the importance of the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners and that appointment to the Northern Ireland Civil Service should be on an impartial basis and on the grounds of merit. It is important that a clear signal should continue to be sent out by Parliament on this point. It is certainly clearer in the language that the Government are currently offering than it was when the Bill first came before this Chamber. I thank the noble Baroness for her help in this matter.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend. In Committee and on Report I put my name to an amendment which was originally piloted by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, because of our concern about the impact at home in Northern Ireland. A number of things that my noble friend has said, and which are in the amendment, are extremely helpful. First, there is the fact that the Secretary of State would be required to produce a report. The contents required to be in the report are also spelt out, as is the fact that it would have to be done three months beforehand. Furthermore, my noble friend has given undertakings that if we find ourselves in that situation, the Government will facilitate the opportunity for debates on the report in this House and in another place, and will take account of the content of those debates. That is a very helpful undertaking.

I think that my noble friend has also indicated something which goes a little further and which I really welcome—that any expectation that the Northern Ireland Executive might have that such legislation will be passed here will to some extent depend on whether there has been demonstrable progress on the Northern Ireland Civil Service rules and bringing them up to date with the arrangements on this side of the water. I am rather encouraged by that because one of the concerns that I expressed at a previous stage was that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—for which I have enormous respect—has not necessarily kept up with some of the progress on this side of the water as quickly as it might have done. My noble friend has indicated—not just in the amendment but in her undertakings and her description of the amendment—that this could be a very helpful lever if we come to a time when the Northern Ireland Executive were eager to make progress in the direction of the amendment and this clause in the Bill.

Not only have the Minister and her officials listened, taken account of what was said and obviously consulted the Secretary of State but there has been a very positive response. I welcome that and I certainly support her amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I am glad that we brought this matter forward for discussion. There is no doubt that the proposals in front of us are infinitely better than the ones that were in the Bill as originally drafted. However, I am still not clear what the driving force behind this is. It was left as an excepted matter quite deliberately and for very good reasons, and in my opinion those reasons are as valid today as they were then. It would be impossible for me to avoid pointing out to the noble Baroness that there has been no consultation with the Assembly on this, and it is not an issue that has any traction except within the small group of people who are directly affected. But the proposals in front of us today are a lot better than what was there before. Some protections have been put in. I am quite sure that reference to the 2010 Act could very well have been the mechanism to sort the whole thing out at the end of the day. Nevertheless, I thank the noble Baroness for listening to us and for acting on what has been said. At least we have put in some protections that were not there before and, I hope, will be of benefit in the long term. On that basis, I support the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords will probably be relieved to hear that my comments on this amendment will be rather briefer than they were on the previous one on the Civil Service Commissioners because there are considerable parallels between the two.

Serious concerns were expressed in our earlier debates about the possibility of devolving responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. These concerns were in many respects analogous to those that were outlined concerning the Civil Service Commissioners. In this case, too, we believe that those concerns deserve a very serious response. We have revised our approach in a similar way, so, as I said, I will make my comments as brief as is in accordance with being clear—I hope. As with the Civil Service Commissioners, I outlined a possible approach on Report. We have taken that approach substantially further in the amendments we have now tabled.

To recap, responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is currently an excepted matter, as are the commission’s functions. Clause 11 moves these responsibilities from the “excepted” to the “reserved” category. The Bill does not, however, propose the devolution of these responsibilities at this time. In previous debates, concerns were expressed in respect of the commission’s independence should it ultimately be devolved. Your Lordships regard this as being of great importance. We share those concerns and are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. I indicated previously that any future devolution of responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission would be subject to public consultation. That remains the case.

These amendments require the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months prior to bringing any order on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the Human Rights Commission. As I have set out in relation to previous amendments, that is intended to ensure that there is adequate time for debate and for noble Lords to influence the approach being taken in Belfast before a devolution order is laid. As before, we undertake to facilitate a debate at that point. I hope your Lordships will agree that this is a reasonable approach to ensure proper consideration and scrutiny.

These amendments would require that the Secretary of State’s report should set out the effect, in her view, that such an order would have on the commission’s independence—which is of cardinal importance to its work. I recognise the emphasis that the commission places on its compliance with international best practice, currently embodied in the Paris and Belgrade principles. My noble friend Lord Alderdice referred to this in speaking to his amendment on Report. To reflect these concerns, this amendment would also require the Secretary of State to set out in her report the effect, in her view, of devolution on the commission’s compliance with internationally accepted principles in respect of national human rights institutions.

An important issue bearing on the independence of the commission, and dealt with in the principles, is the relationship of the commission and the Northern Ireland Assembly. These amendments would therefore require the Secretary of State in her report also to address the effect of devolution on that relationship. I hope noble Lords will feel we have reflected their concerns expressed here in debate and are able to support this amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I again welcome the amendments brought forward by my noble friend the Minister. I accept what she said about this device or resolution being similar to that in the previous question on the Civil Service Commissioners. However, the matter at issue here is very different and one of much more substantial importance. Indeed, the Minister will recall that at Second Reading this issue was one of two that I identified as being absolutely critical. In Committee, I spoke against the question that the clause should stand part of the Bill. On Report, I came back with an amendment on the question and I am very grateful to my noble friend the Secretary of State and her officials for being prepared to engage on the question.

I do not want to repeat what I said before but I point out the signal importance of this issue and its difference from the previous one. Right back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was pressure in Northern Ireland for a Human Rights Commission. In 1973, when the legislation was passed, a Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights was established. That was not sufficient but it was the best that could be achieved at that particular time. It produced some very worthwhile reports, some of which were acted upon in part and some more fully. Some very distinguished colleagues, not least my predecessor as leader of the Alliance Party, Sir Oliver Napier, was a chairman of the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights. Eventually, we moved on. We had a Human Rights Commission for Northern Ireland. The point is that this is not something that came in with the Good Friday agreement. It did not arise lately. There was absolutely critical demand and pressure for it from the 1960s and onwards. It continues to be of signal importance.

In her amendment, my noble friend has very helpfully identified a similar procedure to the previous issue. The Secretary of State would, at least three months in advance, bring forward a report identifying three very important issues: the independence of the Human Rights Commission, its relationship with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the international commitments and responsibilities of Her Majesty’s Government. That is extremely good. She has also said, again very helpfully, that in the event that your Lordships’ House wanted to debate such a report, it would be given an opportunity by the Government to do that, and that the content of that debate would be taken seriously in the construction of the draft legislation. That is all extremely helpful and very welcome.

However, I feel strongly about the significance of this issue. If the Government did not bring forward a satisfactory report or set of proposals, this is of such significance that it is the kind of thing that one would be prepared to vote down. Not many things come forward here in terms of Orders in Council where your Lordships’ House is called on to use what we might describe as the politically nuclear option. This matter of the Human Rights Commission is of such importance that a Government—not just this one; it is likely that a subsequent Government might find themselves in this position—should not be under any illusion that if this matter were to come forward in an unsatisfactory way, they would face very serious opposition. I would be part of that opposition.

My noble friend has listened seriously to the concerns of the moment. The Government are clearly intent on making this facility available to the Northern Ireland Executive, whether or not they wish to take that up. The Minister has listened seriously and there has been a reasonable response. If all the things in this amendment are fulfilled as she described I would be more optimistic that a positive outcome might be possible. On that basis, I support her amendment.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I think I support the amendment. I see that it takes account of the comments from the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It would help if the Minister could give the House one assurance—I do not know whether she can.

New subsection (3D)(b) refers to,

“the application of internationally accepted principles relating to national human rights institutions”.

That is exactly the right criterion. I declare an interest as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission of the UK. In the UK we are in an exceptional position in that three human rights bodies are brigaded together for the purpose of receiving a certain status. I am happy to say that at present it is an A status. Our fates are bound together in that way. It would be extremely important to be clear about the implications of this move to a new status for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. We must take into account the fact that if that misfired it could bring down the Scottish Human Rights Commission and the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission. Could the Minister comment on that? It would be helpful to know that, in considering this move, that particular set of risks would also be considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords—

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I do not want to address the technical aspects of the amendment, but I cannot let the opportunity pass without saying something about my appreciation of and gratitude to my noble friend Lady Randerson. Perhaps it is because of her distinguished service and experience in the Welsh Assembly, perhaps it is just because of the person that she is, perhaps it is because of the conscientious way in which she approaches her work, but, for whatever reason, she has shown great sensitivity to the difficult issues in devolution in a provincial part of our United Kingdom and to the complexity of the issues concerned. Nowhere was this better shown than in your Lordships’ House today, where she dealt with such extraordinary patience with all the difficulties, which were not immediately difficulties of the Bill, but were certainly difficulties with the context in which the Bill is passing in Northern Ireland. The patience that she showed in her responses reminded me a little of George Mitchell and the sort of patience that he had to show at a much earlier stage in the whole process. She has been an exemplar in that regard.

It is also the case that no predecessor for a very long time has had to take a Bill on Northern Ireland here through all the normal stages and passage of time. I see the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, nodding his head, because he was very familiar with those times and that work in Northern Ireland. The Minister, her officials and, indeed, the Secretary of State in the other place, have listened carefully and responded as far as they felt able. Even to our questions today, I think that she responded as far as it was possible to do given the difficulties and complexity of the problem. I express my sincere appreciation for all that she has done, in the knowledge that she will continue to serve in this House for Northern Ireland—and for other places, but from Northern Ireland’s perspective I express my appreciation.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Empey, tabled his amendment on this matter in Committee I added my name to it. I make clear that the absence of my name from this amendment today does not mean that I have changed my mind. I agree with what the noble Lord has said and I hope he gets a very positive response from the Minister.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, in Committee I made it clear that I was very supportive of the principle of establishing an Opposition in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I remain of that view. In fact, I think it could be a very helpful improvement and evolution of the constitutional arrangements. It is clear that Standing Orders in the Assembly can accommodate this. When the Assembly was first established it had a very flimsy little pamphlet of Standing Orders. It was very important that the Assembly on all sides agreed to a process of negotiating and ultimately passing Standing Orders with cross-community support in the Assembly. That meant that all Members of the Assembly felt they were their Standing Orders. I would prefer to try to find that way forward. I do not accept the proposition that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to about this being an imposition. I agree with him that this is not about imposition; it is about facilitation. The dilemma is, as he described, that it requires the larger parties in the Assembly to buy into the proposition before his amendment, even if passed, would come into operation. It is a bit of a Catch-22 situation. To achieve the things he and the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Trimble, want to achieve will require a process of negotiation between the party or parties that wish to have the possibility of being an Official Opposition and the current parties of government. Of course, these things can change—they have changed since the agreement, with the size of parties and their influence and so on.

Is there any leverage? I think there is considerable leverage. For example the Ulster Unionist Party, which is no longer as substantial in this House as it once was, has a substantial number of Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and indeed has ministerial positions. It would be possible to negotiate with the two largest parties in the Assembly on the basis that, as vacating ministerial presence on the Executive to take up opposition status would be to the advantage of the other parties, appropriate recognition as the Opposition would be sought in return.

This leads me to two areas where I feel some dissatisfaction with the specifics of this amendment. First, there is the suggestion that a party with one Member could become the Official Opposition. I would rather see a slightly higher bar than that in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The idea that a single Member could form a party of their own and have the status of Official Opposition seems unwise. There should be some more substantial number; it is going to be a bit arbitrary whatever it is, but one is both arbitrary and unwise. I can think of many individual Members of the Assembly who might choose to adopt that status and create merry hell for everyone, including themselves and the Speaker. I would rather that there were more.

The second is related to that: the special position that is accorded in the chairmanship of committees, as suggested in the amendment. Again, for a very small party of one or two people to be able to corral those significant positions seems unwise. However, I emphasise again that the principle that is being supported by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, is one that anyone who wants to see the evolution of the Assembly should espouse, and if there are things that can be done by the Secretary of State and our own Minister here or by others in your Lordships’ House to move that forward, we should certainly do so. However, I remain to be persuaded that this amendment is going to take us in quite the direction and for quite the distance that its proposers might hope.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, in Committee there was a broad consensus—that is the key word—that the creation of an Opposition, or the allocation of opposition rights to parties in Stormont, lay within the scope of the Assembly and could be achieved through its Standing Orders. That consensus is again confirmed today. The Assembly’s Standing Orders have the power to grant informal recognition to non-executive parties in the Assembly on a proportional basis. There was also unanimous agreement as to the value of opposition and the additional effectiveness that an Opposition would bring to scrutinising the Executive and holding it to account. In fact, “consensus” appears to be the key word in this discussion.

In Committee, several noble Lords raised concerns about the vulnerability of any arrangements that were determined solely by Stormont. Concerns were also raised about the efficacy of the Assembly’s committees, particularly the chairmanship and deputy chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee. The current amendment represents an understandable attempt to overcome those anxieties. By placing the creation of Standing Orders that grant opposition status within the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and by making it impossible for the Assembly to revoke official opposition status, the independence of an Opposition would appear to be guaranteed. Through this amendment, any Opposition would not be dependent on the continued good will of the Assembly for their status and associated rights. Bearing in mind the word of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice—“evolution”, which is particularly relevant—that might not be welcomed.

We all wish to see the continued normalisation of politics within Northern Ireland. Great strides have been made. It is a rocky road at times but it is still a great road to be on. However, as I have said before, the situation and structures in Northern Ireland are unique. It is for this reason that I and the Official Opposition share the doubts mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Is this the way ahead? Unless you are sure about something, you should not support it in Northern Ireland.

After so much division, the 1998 agreement established an Assembly and Executive in Northern Ireland that would be inclusive and make decisions consensually. These very same principles apply to the creation of an Opposition within the Assembly today. It is not a case of hiding behind the mantra of devolution. Devolution has a capital “D”. It is not a mantra. It is an effective way of delivering power and devolving power down in a very centralised society, which the United Kingdom can be at times.

In June 2013 the Assembly and Executive Review Committee concluded that, as yet, no cross-community consensus had been reached. This followed a government consultation in 2012 that reached the same conclusions.

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[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. The shadow of history lies over it. When the Northern Ireland Civil Service was established in 1921-22, something like 60 appointments were made without any normal procedures of recruitment being applied. Over a period of time a struggle to achieve a professional Civil Service began. The time between 1925 and 1944 when Sir Wilfrid Spender was head of the Civil Service was key. In the memoirs of a Catholic civil servant, Patrick Shea, who reached the top of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, one can see the degree to which great efforts were made to institutionalise procedures that reflected what Sir Wilfrid thought were the best procedures in Whitehall.

That backdrop explains why, when direct rule came, Ministers of all parties—I do not just mean Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat Ministers who had dealings with the Northern Ireland Civil Service, but Ministers who leant to one particular side or the other in Northern Ireland—always found that the Northern Ireland Civil Service delivered excellent and objective advice. If one looks at the non-controversial nature of north-south relations, which is of particular importance at the moment, it is clear that the big political decisions in such a context were made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who is in his place today.

It is also the case that the work done by the Northern Ireland Civil Service in looking at areas of viable co-operation between north and south is a very important reason why the settlement is so stable. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, we owe a debt of gratitude to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. As I have argued, that integrity and professionalism has been hard won. The pressures of localism do not go away: it is not 1921 anymore. At this symbolic moment, it seems to me that noble Lords who supported this amendment want to say that a stronger message is desirable in terms of defining the principle of merit and of fair and open competition. That essentially is the idea behind this amendment: that that signal should be sent in a firm way.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, whatever reservations I might have had with regard to the previous amendment I have none at all about putting my name to this one as it is very important. There was some talk in the debate on the previous amendment about the imposition of the will of the Westminster Parliament or Westminster Government on Northern Ireland. In a sense, this amendment and the next one refer to two clauses where it is almost as though the Westminster Parliament and Government are intentionally withdrawing their involvement and moving from excepted to reserved matters that were rather carefully put in the excepted category. Why? Many of us were conscious of the fact that over a substantial time in the historical period referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, the United Kingdom Parliament and Government were less involved in that part of the United Kingdom than might have been advisable, and things went awry.

It does not seem to me that we have learnt from that. Indeed, some indications over the past two or three years are that people on this side of the water, relieved to some extent that Northern Ireland is less in the headlines than it was for 20 or 30 years, are just hoping that everything will go on all right. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has rung a warning bell that maybe things need attention, and I think he is right on that score. I have heard no demand in Northern Ireland for the issues referred to in this amendment or the next to be changed, so I am a little puzzled why these propositions have come forward in the first place. If they do proceed, they must be addressed properly.

I have two concerns. First, while I accord entirely with the positive remarks of the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Bew, about the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and from my positive experience in most circumstances over some years, nevertheless, particularly as I was trying to get the Assembly up and running, it became apparent that many of the more senior civil servants were operating off a kind of Civil Service rulebook from 20 or 30 years before. They really had not kept up with the kind of developments of Civil Service culture on this side of the water. There was nothing malign about it but it seemed that things took rather a long time to get across the Irish Sea in terms of cultural change. So, one of my concerns is that if we simply offload and do not put appropriate rules in place, those cultural changes that take place on this side of the water may not be picked up as quickly back at home, and I do not want to see that.

Secondly, when appointing senior civil servants it is suggested that the Civil Service as a whole, and the basis on which it recruits, is entirely a devolved matter. That is clearly legally true. However, I ask my noble friend to consider—she may not be able to respond immediately—whether, if it became apparent that the merit principle did not apply and proper recruitment was not happening in Northern Ireland, would that not be a matter of concern to this Parliament? If it became apparent that there was discrimination, inappropriate appointments were being made or that the merit principle was not the key principle, is it seriously being suggested that this Parliament would have no locus, interest or legitimate concern, and that the Secretary of State who was responsible for negotiating the resources that those civil servants would spend, and who might have a legitimate concern for the propriety of appointments, could say nothing about it? I am not entirely persuaded that that argument stands up. I do not necessarily say that we would ever get to that position but if we talk ourselves into the notion that this Parliament and the Government have no say in the overwhelming majority affairs in Northern Ireland, that is a recipe for neglect, benign or otherwise. I do not want to contribute to that.

I support the amendment not only because, technically, I think it is important, and historically it is appropriate, but because it gives us the opportunity again—as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, they do not come by too often—to raise the issue of Northern Ireland and the responsibility of this place and the Government here on what is a devolved institution, not an independent one.

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[Baroness Randerson]

One our problems is that the Bill refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners but the amendment goes beyond that because, as has been pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill and things are put into it which add to its scope. In attempting to respond to the debate, we have all been discussing the qualities of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—its free and open appointment and independence. We have therefore been ranging well beyond the point in the Bill. I am absolutely happy to organise a meeting with noble Lords who are concerned about this issue. It is essential to have a full discussion of any proposed amendment and ensure, as far as possible, that noble Lords are satisfied with the direction of the amendment.

As the noble Baroness has pointed out, there is an issue with timing. We have Third Reading next week so it is essential that we move on under a realistic timetable. The Government are absolutely committed to having public consultation before making fundamental changes to the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners. We are not considering devolution of anything without wide public consultation and the agreement of the Assembly. We have a relatively limited period of time in which to produce an amendment that works within those parameters.

[Lord Alderdice]

I hesitate to intervene, but will my noble friend clarify something else? She talked about the importance of public consultation. I do not ask her to clarify this now, but perhaps she could do so in writing before the Bill’s next stage. The noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench said that culturally and socially there is a difference in the roles of the heads of the Civil Service departments in Northern Ireland. It is my recollection that there is a legal and constitutional difference from this part of the world as well. I recollect that the heads of Northern Ireland government departments are the civil servants, not the Ministers, which is a different position from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not certain that all noble Lords are aware of the fact that it is a quite different position. Therefore, sensitivities that some of us have on these matters are all the more acute. I see my noble friend Lord Trimble nodding his head, and that ought to be confirmation sufficient for me, but I ask the Minister to confirm between now and the next stage precisely what is the position and, in particular, the status of heads of department as civil servants.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend is correct in his general point, which is that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland has a different status from that in the rest of the country. The situation changed in 2010, when additional safeguards were introduced for the rest of the country.

I suggest that the best way in which I can deal with the detailed approach for which my noble friend is asking is to add it to the letter that I originally said that I would write to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, because it is very much in the same field and at the same level of detail. Then we can have the precise legal and historical background to the different situation that exists for the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. My noble friend makes an important point that we are looking historically at a different situation.

I draw your Lordships’ attention to my proposal of an amendment that the Secretary of State should bring forward a report. I think that our approach flags up the importance that your Lordships clearly attach to this very important question. Requiring a report will feed back into the consultation process that we have committed to undertake on the question of whether the responsibility should be devolved and in which circumstances. I hope that your Lordships will agree that such an amendment goes much further than the current clause. We will of course return to the detail of these amendments. It is obvious that we are going to have ongoing discussion on this and we will return to it at Third Reading. I hope that this will provide the noble Lord with the necessary assurances and that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Alderdice]

2A: Clause 11, page 9, line 8, at end insert—
“( ) In subsection (2) of section 68 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission), for “approved by the Secretary of State” substitute “nominated by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and confirmed by a vote of the Northern Ireland Assembly”.
( ) In subsection (3) of section 68 of that Act, for “appointments” substitute “nominations”.
( ) In subsection (3) of section 68 of that Act, for “Secretary of State” substitute “First Minister and Deputy First Minister”.
( ) In subsection (2) of section 69 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (The Commission’s functions), for “Secretary of State” substitute “the Northern Ireland Assembly”.
( ) In subsection (3) of section 69 of that Act, for “Secretary of State and the Executive Committee of the” substitute “Northern Ireland”.”

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[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, this amendment follows on in a sense from many of the principles of the previous amendment, but there are also some significant differences. The question of human rights and how to maintain them has been a long-standing interest and concern of mine. My first formal involvement in the issue occurred in my late teens and early 20s when I was a youth representative in the human rights commission of the Irish churches. However, I have never been a human rights fundamentalist. I remember one of the senior clergy in that commission describing the question of human rights in a way that I have always found helpful. He said that “human rights” is an important and helpful disturbing notion. In other words, it is something which should always make us ask certain kinds of questions, but on its own it does not determine all human behaviour—in particular, the balance of human rights and human responsibilities.

As I say, human rights has always been a matter of concern to me. When I got involved with Liberal International, which is the worldwide organisation of liberal political parties, I found that its only standing committee—apart from the bureau, executive and congress—is the one on human rights. I got involved with that committee and became its chairman, and I was the chairman for some time. As I tried to help that organisation move forward, I thought that it would be a good idea to consult an old friend and colleague from Ireland, Mary Robinson, who at that point was the High Commissioner for Human Rights at the United Nations. When I went to discuss this in her office in Geneva she said, “If you’ve got an issue and you have a campaign, and if you are successful in your aims, you will have achieved success in one campaign; but if you can put in place a structure or an organisation, or an institution which has longevity and good people in it, then you will address not just one issue but one issue after another”. She encouraged me to encourage my colleagues in different parts of the world to set up parliamentary human rights committees, ombudsmen and, importantly, independent human rights commissions and institutions, and I spent quite a number of years trying to do that.

However, it is not just about human rights commissions but about independent human rights commissions. In particular, these commissions need to have an independence from the Executive in those countries. It is enough that they frequently find themselves dependent on the Executive for funding; it is even worse if they are wholly dependent for their nomination and appointment on the Executive. One of my concerns about this proposal to open up devolution of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, with appointments made by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, is that it would undermine this question of independence. I am puzzled about it because the other area of devolution that we are conscious of is not just Wales—with respect to my noble friend on the Front Bench—but also Scotland. What is the situation in Scotland? The Human Rights Commission there is responsible to the Scottish Parliament, not to the Scottish Government or Executive. I was completely unsurprised to find that when the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was asked to respond to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place, it said, “If the Government want to move ahead on this, that is all very good. But it would conform much more closely to the Belgrade principles if it were accountable to the Assembly and not to the Northern Ireland Executive”.

I have therefore tabled this amendment. It is not a complete amendment or an amendment which I intend to press—it is entirely a probing amendment. I urge colleagues not to get involved in finding flaws with it because that would be much too easy a job. I am simply setting down the principle that, if and when the Government move forward with this proposal—and perhaps my noble friend can even give me some encouragement that at Third Reading there might be an amendment that will address this question—the Northern Ireland Assembly is the key body to which the Human Rights Commission is accountable, and the Assembly and not just the Executive should have a say in the appointment of Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission members and chair. In practice, it may well be the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister that makes nominations. In political terms, it is hugely important that the members are accountable to the Assembly, perhaps with a vote for their appointment and the tabling of an annual report to it.

There are many ways in which the Human Rights Commission already involves itself with the Assembly; for example, it advises the Speaker, when he requests it, on the human rights compliance of legislation before it comes to First Reading and before it leaves the Assembly. That is not the issue. It is the question of principle. If it is to be and to remain an independent body there should be a clear significance of that by it being accountable to the Assembly and not just to the Executive. I beg to move.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I support the object of my noble friend’s amendment and I want to explain why. I have practical experience in Northern Ireland. Between 1975 and 1977 I had the privilege of being the special adviser to what was then called the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights in Northern Ireland. At that stage the commission was examining the highly controversial question of whether the European human rights convention should be given direct effect in UK law or in Northern Ireland law. The Northern Ireland Office, like others within that Government, was strongly opposed to the idea of incorporation at that time. I regret that there was undoubted interference behind the scenes with the commission by the Northern Ireland Office. A member of the Executive was present throughout and reported back to them. At one stage there was an attempt to remove me because they saw the way that the body was going, and when we produced the report in November 1977 three members of the commission who had been—in my view—on the right side were removed summarily in a way that I thought was quite wrong.

I agree with my noble friend about the great importance of the independence of the commission from the Executive, and I wish that this was not a devolved function at all. I think that the commission would be better protected if it was not being devolved. However, given that it is to be devolved, and in accordance with the Paris principles and the Belgrade principles, it is vitally important that it is seen to be independent and properly buttressed. In supporting the amendment, I do not know whether the particular solution would be the right one because I can envisage a situation in which the Assembly might be guilty of improper interference. However, I am certain that the independence of this body is vital. The Joint Committee on Human Rights has been in frequent touch with the Human Rights Commission in Northern Ireland and we have been very concerned about the need for its independence to be properly protected.

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[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Lester, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord McAvoy, and my noble friend the Minister for their very constructive and positive contributions. Noble Lords may recall that in Committee I spoke in opposition to the Question that Clause 11 stand part of the Bill, so I started from the same position as my noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that “‘twere better it weren’t here at all in the first place”. That did not find favour.

I have therefore brought forward a probing amendment to encourage the Government to do the right thing, which is at least to ensure that if this comes forward there will be very clear requirements. I welcome the assurance—perhaps even reassurance—from my noble friend the Minister that there will be an amendment at Third Reading. However, she said that it will not be the same solution as the one that I propose. Let me just remind the House of some of the things that the Belgrade principles actually set out. They include the principles that:

“Parliaments should ensure the financial independence of NHRIs”—

national human rights institutions,

“by including in the founding law the relevant provisions”;

that:

“NHRIs should submit to Parliaments a Strategic Plan and/or an Annual Programme of Activities”;

that:

“Parliaments should take into account the Strategic Plan and/or Annual Programme of activities submitted by the NHRI while discussing budget proposals”;

that:

“NHRIs should report directly to Parliament”,

not to the Executive; and that:

“NHRIs should submit to Parliament an annual report on activities, along with a summary of its accounts, and also report on the human rights situation in the country and on any other issue that is related to human rights”.

There is nothing about the Executive because it is about holding the Executive and others to account. The reference is to “Parliaments”.

The Belgrade principles are not something from the distant past; they were agreed in February 2012. NHRIs produced these principles along with academics from the United Kingdom, one of the 10 jurisdictions involved. It will not be good enough if we decide that these are good principles for other places but not for ourselves. I want to make it clear that, while reassurance will certainly be helped by a report from the Secretary of State, the problem about the approval of this House and another place, as was pointed out with regard to the previous amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is that it is a bit of a nuclear option. By the time it comes to the House, it is a question of voting yea or nay, and the House, quite properly, is very reserved about using that power. Therefore, it is either about sorting the matter out before it comes to this place or it is a real problem getting it sorted out.

I made it clear that this is a probing amendment and I look forward to the amendment that my noble friend will bring forward at Third Reading. But I should make it very clear that this is no marginal matter. The issue of human rights is a fundamental one in general terms, but in my part of the country it has very particular important resonances. Any sense of disengagement or diminution of the importance of such an issue by making it subject to the whims and wishes of the Executive would be a serious error. I find it difficult to see how it would fit with the Belgrade principles if it were not made accountable to the Northern Ireland Assembly, much as is the case in Scotland between the Human Rights Commission there and the Scottish Parliament. However, with those concerns and reservations, and with genuine appreciation of the efforts of my noble friend and the amendment which she promises us at Third Reading, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 2A withdrawn.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, nobody could doubt that this debate has been very wide-ranging. The contributions from our noble and learned colleagues and others have made us realise that the matters we are discussing are of very great significance.

There are a number of easy solutions. Obviously, the Executive can act at a far greater pace than they are at the moment. However, there has been a change in the past few months with the change in Finance Ministers at Stormont. Mr Hamilton’s predecessor was very dismissive of any actions being taken in this matter; Mr Hamilton has asked the Law Commission to intervene. The Private Member’s Bill that Mr Nesbitt has before him has had his consultation and he has undertaken to share that consultation with the Law Commission. I believe he met it last week and reassured it that that would still be the case.

However, there has been a change in the pace at which this consultation is going. Originally we thought it would be brief and to the point because this issue has been consulted on time after time. However, I am now hearing stories that there is going to be a scoping study and then there will be a consultation by the Law Commission on top of the consultation that has already taken place in the Private Member’s Bill, on top of the consultation on the 2013 Bill. By my very rudimentary calculations, that would take the issue outside of the current Assembly’s mandate, which ends in 2016. What could be an easy solution could in fact simply kick the can down the road.

There is no question that those of us who have had the privilege of being in Stormont know that the issues raised by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope of Craighead, are important. By any stretch of the imagination, the easiest solution is for Stormont to deal with this itself. However, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and his colleagues point to the wider obligations of the United Kingdom Government and the issue of free speech and human rights. Of course, human rights have an international obligation, which is excluded from the devolution settlement and reserved to Westminster.

Pressure and sentiments have been expressed on all sides of this House. I hope that in their winding-up statements both the Government and the Opposition will encourage an early resolution to this, rather than simply going on and on with consultations for years. The truth is, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, made this point, that there are a few schoolyard bullies back in Belfast who regularly threaten people who speak their minds.

We have not mentioned today the other issue of academic publication, which is vital. Having had some responsibility for that, I know that there are many good researchers. We encourage research; indeed, we want to find even more money to put into research, only to find that the researchers could be prevented from actually publishing their findings. No one wants us to be in that place.

There is a simple solution to this, and I hope that the pressure from all sides in this House will direct us towards the solution, which is for the Northern Island Executive to encourage the Assembly to pass a legislative consent Motion. Alternatively, if that opportunity has now passed, the Assembly has the Private Member’s Bill in front of it; it could take over that Bill and introduce it very quickly. That is the course of action that I hope it will follow.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate, but when I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the reservations of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope of Craighead, I felt that it was important to address the question of devolution and what the devolution doctrine means. It does not seem to be admissible of an entirely legal constitutional interpretation. It does not seem to be a matter of saying, “We’re devolved; we don’t have to give any kind of explanation to anyone for what we do. We can simply make arbitrary decisions”. It was not ever intended for that purpose. It was intended in general terms, and in particular in Northern Ireland, to ensure that decisions were made on a cross-community basis that ensured that the governance of Northern Ireland took into account the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland and its particular needs—domestically, within the United Kingdom, in relation to the Republic of Ireland and in relation to its relatively remote status. There are many areas where devolved government appropriately makes different decisions because, in terms of education, healthcare, transport or agriculture, the situation is different economically, practically, culturally, socially or whatever.

In certain circumstances, the notions adumbrated by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope, are completely correct, and their cautions in those circumstances would be well taken. The purpose of devolution is to enable that kind of differentiation. However, no reason has been given by the Northern Ireland Executive for this delay and for holding back. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, very appropriately supported his party in its decision on this matter, but even he did not give any good reasons why he should not fall in with the operation of the new Defamation Act in the rest of the United Kingdom. Nor, as far as I am aware, has there been any public debate at home in Northern Ireland, any indication that an agreement has been reached or any reasons adduced why we should not move forward—on the contrary, there has simply been an arbitrary decision that we are not going to go ahead on this. Then—and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, presented this in a very positive way—we will have this local consultation. That is fine if it is to ensure that there is real local difference, but it is not fine if the consultation kicks the issue into the long grass, and there is a suspicion that that is what it is all about.

On top of this, there are those circumstances where one can appropriately seal off Northern Ireland, as it were, to deal with particular issues. Animal health might be one. However, this issue cannot be dealt with in an isolated fashion. The whole point is that publication, whether digitally or in hard copy, cannot be isolated within Northern Ireland, and it puts everyone at risk if one tries to do that inappropriately.

I therefore want to emphasise that, although I appreciate the reasonable cautions, it does not seem to me that devolution is meant to enable the local devolved Executive to make arbitrary decisions without explanation or clarity, or decisions that are simply inappropriate to the circumstances. Then the question comes of how we deal with this. Do we deal with it by simply slamming something through this evening in your Lordships’ House and leaving somebody else to pick up the pieces—political or legal? I think not, but my noble friend Lord Trimble has pointed in the right direction. That is to say, whatever the limited remaining powers and opportunities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, one of the opportunities she has is to take the messages from this Palace to the Stormont Administration and say to them, “Do you realise how strongly people in the rest of the United Kingdom feel about this? They are not terribly accepting of the notion that you are going to take a whole lot of time to deal with this. If you want to take a little time to tweak it or for your own particular reasons, that may well be acceptable”. However, I would be assured and reassured by the Minister, not if she were to say that she was going to accept this—because I am sure that she is not going to be in a position to do that—but if she were able to say to us that the Secretary of State, her right honourable friend, will take seriously what has been said in your Lordships’ House tonight, convey that to the Northern Ireland Executive at the most senior levels, and ensure that the matter is taken seriously and expeditiously.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate with speeches of quality. It further justifies the existence of this place, where such a measured debate can be held. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, cited journalists as one of the main reasons why he was bringing this forward. I could think of many other occupations that have inspired more sympathy and understanding than journalists, but I take the point that he made. On a totally irrelevant point—and it is a good job that there is not a Lord Speaker to rule me out of order—I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, invariably sits in a seat below the coat of arms of a former stadholder of Holland, better known as William III. I am sure it is entirely coincidental, but it many ways it is quite appropriate.

This is the second lengthy discussion we have had on this issue and I am sure I will be shot down in flames with my intervention, but there we are. I will repeat the point I made in Committee—that the extension of the Defamation Act is a devolved matter. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a powerful point about the nature and state of devolution as a principle, and it is a principle. Nevertheless, I place on record immediately that the Labour Opposition favour the introduction of the Act as quickly as possible and will seek assurances from the Minister as to how she intends to pursue that matter.

It is clear that the extension of the Defamation Act 2013 to Northern Ireland stands firmly in the competence of the Stormont Assembly. It is through the Assembly’s passing of a legislative consent Motion, not an Act of Parliament, that the Defamation Act 2013 will come into force in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, said, if I am picking him up right—and, as a former forklift truck driver in a factory, I hesitate to cross legal swords with him—that devolution was a flawed principle. As a lay person, I do not understand the concept of attacking it on that basis. A free Parliament passed that law; a free Parliament passed devolution and a free Parliament has a right to make mistakes and will make mistakes, as the noble Lord, Lord King, knows well. The principle of devolution was passed by a free Parliament, and we in the Opposition recognise that and are very reluctant to get involved in laying down the law to a devolved Assembly. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, quite rightly mentioned the reaction in Scotland if London—in parentheses, England—tried to “dictate” to the Scottish Parliament on a devolved issue. We can have legal debates and highly principled debates here but, if we do not understand the nature of the political impact of the things that we try to do, that would be a flawed approach.

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[Lord Browne of Belmont]

My Lords, this is an issue that the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Empey, have returned to on several occasions in the past, and I am sure that they will keep doing so in the future. However, as I pointed out in Committee, no other ministerial appointments, with the exception at present of the Justice Ministry, require cross-community support. It seems inappropriate that this requirement should be applied to the appointment of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

In Northern Ireland we are currently experiencing the longest period of stable government in a generation. What is detailed in the amendment simply moves us backwards and returns us to the position that existed in Northern Ireland pre-St Andrews. When we look back at Northern Ireland under the devolved institutions prior to the St Andrews talks and compare it with the stable Province we now have as a result of an extended period of devolved government since 2007, we see a remarkably different country.

As noble Lords will be aware, and as I mentioned in Committee, there is a legal requirement placed upon the Northern Ireland Assembly to provide a report on how the Assembly structures can be improved. My party, the Democratic Unionist Party, would be reluctant to pre-empt the work ongoing in the Assembly to review its functions and those of all the political institutions by supporting amendments such as this. It is my firm belief that it is inappropriate to simply unpick some parts of the relevant legislation. This amendment would simply divert attention from the important issues and challenges that Northern Ireland and its politicians face every single day. If changes are to be made we must look at the totality of the system of devolved government.

[Lord Alderdice]

I am encouraged by some of the things the noble Lord has said. I would be encouraged even more if he was able to give an undertaking that his party will also adhere to its commitment to this way of forming the First Minister and Deputy First Minister portfolios whatever the outcome of the Assembly elections in 2016. It would be a real reassurance not only to this House but to others if he was able to give an undertaking that his and his party’s commitment to this way of working is not only for when they have the First Minister but for whichever party has the First Minister.

[Lord Browne of Belmont]

I am not in a position to speak for the Executive or for my party in the Assembly. However, I am sure that they would wish to progress in a way that they believe will serve the people of Northern Ireland best.

I oppose the amendment and I hope that we will be able to proceed with the elections in Northern Ireland. Unlike the Ulster Unionists, I am not pessimistic about the outcome; I am very optimistic.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I attached my name to this important amendment readily and enthusiastically. I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Empey that a firm, statutory basis should be provided through this Bill for the creation of a formal Opposition with the appropriate rights and privileges if and when the Northern Ireland Assembly should wish to bring it into being. This proposal has been formulated by my noble friend, drawing on his deep knowledge of the Assembly in which he served and of the Executive, of which he was a distinguished Member. It has attracted widespread interest and no small measure of support in Northern Ireland, as recent comments in the Ulster press have indicated, comments to which my noble friend has referred. Within the Assembly itself, advocates of the need for an Opposition are making themselves increasingly heard. They do not believe that the Assembly should remain in perpetuity the only legislature in these islands in which the Government face no Official Opposition who could hold them publicly to account.

Speaking as a staunch Conservative and Unionist, I am convinced that my noble friend’s proposal should, through his amendment, be incorporated into this Bill. Over the years, I have always been inclined to back forward-looking measures proposed by members of the Ulster Unionist Party, with which my party was closely allied for the best part of 100 years until the relationship broke down after 1972. My noble friend, as chairman of the Ulster Unionist Party, has done much to encourage closer contact with Conservatives once again. Indeed, at the previous general election, Conservatives and Ulster Unionists in Northern Ireland stood on a common platform. It included the following statement:

“Over time we would like the institutions of Northern Ireland to evolve into a more normal system with a government and opposition. But we recognise that any changes are for the future and will only come about after full consultation and with the agreement of the parties in the Assembly”.

This amendment seeks to give effect to that Conservative and unionist commitment.

However, the amendment has not been brought forward in any narrow party spirit. My noble friend has made clear that it rests on a conviction that the prospects of political progress would be assisted in the longer term if the Northern Ireland Assembly had available to it the power to establish an Official Opposition on the basis of primary legislation passed in this Parliament. As he said, that would give any Opposition who are called formally into existence a greater independence and strength than one established under the Assembly’s current standing orders, as is perfectly possible. All the central elements of the Assembly, including the arrangements for the appointment of chairmen and deputy chairmen, and for the modus operandi of the committees themselves are enshrined in schedules to the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The role and functions of an Official Opposition are obviously no less important. They, too, should rest on a statutory basis.

I have stressed that the amendment reflects no narrow party political interest. I hope that it will attract support throughout the House as a measure which seeks to encourage a significant useful step forward in the government and law-making processes of Northern Ireland without in any way dictating to the Assembly or attempting to impose a timetable for change upon it. Should we not seek to give the Assembly firm, open encouragement to move in a direction that we believe to be right at a time that it believes to be appropriate?

During Northern Ireland’s first period of devolved government after 1921, Parliament at Westminster gave no advice and guidance and ignored Northern Ireland for more than 40 years, with disastrous consequences. We must not repeat that terrible error, as my noble friend Lord Empey has often reminded us. Here, in this amendment, lies an opportunity to offer a view on a crucial aspect of Northern Ireland’s political future and to provide the means by which progress towards it could be achieved. When my noble friend on the Front Bench comes to reply to the debate, I hope she will be able to indicate that the Government will give this amendment sympathetic consideration, paving the way for the incorporation of its extremely important objective in the Bill itself.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I should like to pick up on the latter part of the helpful speech of my noble friend Lord Lexden. He reflected on the fact that ignoring the problems of Northern Ireland from 1921 onwards turned out to be disastrous not just for Northern Ireland but, indeed, for the United Kingdom. Therefore, I support the notion put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, my noble friend Lord Lexden and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, that the question of opposition within the Northern Ireland Assembly requires attention.

Indeed, if one looks back at the period up until the breakdown of Stormont, I think it is true that in the whole of that period only one person occupied an executive position who was not a member of the Ulster Unionist Party. That was the right honourable David Bleakley from the Northern Ireland Labour Party, who was for six months the Minister of Community Relations in the very late stages of that unionist Administration. That represents the problem. Those who wanted to be in government were denied that opportunity and were kept in permanent opposition. This was very much to the fore in the minds of everyone during the negotiations on the Good Friday agreement—how to make sure that those who wanted to be in government but had a permanent minority status could participate in the Government and share responsibility. It was not in the minds of anyone at that time to insist that people had to be in government; the problem was the blockage as regards getting into government.

There were many other things that were not clear in the minds of some of those involved. For example, I think it is probably the case—I see that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, is not yet in his place—that the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party and of the SDLP, which were the two largest parties within unionism and nationalism, scarcely at that time conceived that they might not continue to be the two largest parties. Of course, the situation changed dramatically. When the new institutions were constructed, instead of bringing people together across the community divide, they promoted strength within the two sections of the community. Not only did they not provide for an official status for an opposition but they did not provide for a proper status for those who did not want to describe themselves as unionists and nationalists. Instead of the cross-community voting system being as I and my colleagues tried to promote, with a need for a two-thirds majority to form an Executive, it was decided that they needed a majority within both the unionist and nationalist communities and a majority of the whole. That made it very difficult for people to appeal across the community divide and to have a proper and reasonable status for those who did not want to consider themselves either unionist or nationalist. Once one moved down that road one created a real problem for any formal opposition status.

What the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about the absence of an Official Opposition being a problem is true. He is right to raise it and I support the fact that he has raised it. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to indicate to us that the Government will take this matter seriously as we go through the remaining stages of the Bill. Does this way of addressing the problem achieve what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and his colleagues want? First, the noble Lord has rightly said that it would be perfectly possible under standing order arrangements to be made in the Assembly for there to be a position for the Opposition. That is the situation in this Parliament and it would be perfectly possible. However, he made the point that the two largest parties as they are at present probably have little motivation to support such a thing. That is quite true but that is also true of the amendment before us as it requires the two largest parties with the majority in the Assembly to sign up for this. It does not give the Secretary of State the opportunity to push it. I understand why the noble Lord does not want in any sense to suggest that there should be imposition from outside. The people of Ireland, north and south, respond particularly badly to being pushed in any direction at all, even one they would agree with if left to themselves. Nevertheless, the great vulnerability of the proposition he puts forward is that it does not take us much forward beyond what the Assembly could do itself if it chose to do so.

My erstwhile colleagues in the Alliance Party tried to play a role as an Opposition when they did not have sufficient support to get a ministerial position. Undoubtedly, they felt that the speeches they made and the stances they took were constructive. However, the observation they made is exactly the one that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, makes—that there is no official position and that is a substantial weakness. Would it be possible for a party at present simply to go into opposition? Yes, it would. It simply means that during the running of d’Hondt the nominating officer of a particular political party does not put a name forward. The party is then automatically not in the Executive and therefore is in opposition. The problem is that it would not have any further status without some kind of negotiation.

I was encouraged, as I know the noble Lord, Lord Empey, was encouraged, by the editorial in the Irish News as it suggested that not only had we presently a cross-community basis for government but that it was possible that we might have a cross-community basis for opposition. The SDLP and the Ulster Unionists might come together on this and make a presentation to the Assembly that said, “Together, we think it would be more constructive for us to go into opposition”. There is a bit of a tendency in Northern Ireland to say that the Government over here should sort out the problem. However, I would urge that not only do my noble friend and Her Majesty’s Government here take this issue seriously, but the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and his colleagues in the Ulster Unionist Party should take it seriously in discussions with the SDLP. A cross-community presentation that said, “Let’s have an opposition and we will form that together by volunteering not to take executive positions”, would be a very powerful political position to take. Along with some legislative encouragement of the kind the noble Lord suggests, that might begin to make a difference.

In principle the noble Lord is right. The Belfast agreement was a good agreement but not a perfect agreement. The noble Lord pointed to one of the things that is imperfect—an imperfection that will become clearer as time goes on. My uncertainty is not about the principle or the value, but the delivery. This gentle nudge might help to push us in the right direction or show that something further is necessary. I hope that my noble friend, the Secretary of State and others in the Government will take the principle seriously to see whether through this amendment, another amendment or by another process it is possible to move our politics in Northern Ireland forward.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her decision that the Government will reflect on this. It is interesting that everyone around the Chamber agrees the basic principles. Perhaps we should invite Mr Richard Haass to come in and help us between now and Report. Failing that, if the Minister and other parties—

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, if cross-community agreement were the key element in reaching an Executive, some kind of cross-community negotiation of those parties that could reasonably be expected to be in opposition might be a very fruitful way forward for consideration.

[Lord Empey]

I do not think that it would be appropriate to turn down any suggestion. However, we must not look at this purely in the current context of who happens to be around at this point in time. We must look years ahead. This is a structural issue. The Minister got the main points in her summing-up. The tensions here are that, first, we do not want to impose and, secondly, we must be consistent with the Belfast agreement. However, if you have to ask somebody for the right to be in opposition then there is a flaw. That is why one further step is required. Nevertheless, on the basis of the Government’s announcement that they will reflect on these issues and, I hope, discuss them with those who have participated in this debate today, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down I apologise: I should have been in a moment earlier. I want to reflect on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Clause 6 deals with the reduction in size of the Assembly being a reserved matter. There is a general view that, at 108 Members, the Assembly is too big. Compared with the Welsh and Scottish assemblies it is proportionately far bigger, but the reason for this was a deliberate decision to try and make it as inclusive as possible. Some two years ago we thought that a solution would be brought upon us with the change in parliamentary constituencies, because reducing the number of parliamentary constituencies would automatically reduce the size of the Assembly—QED. However, one or two people around your Lordships’ House and in other places had different views, and consequently that did not come to pass. However, it would have been an important step.

I have to caution the House that the Assembly deciding on how to reduce its numbers is as important as actually reducing the numbers. Using the existing system, if you reduced the numbers and left the existing constituencies the same, it would be perfectly possible to have a major political impact. It is a bit like the American states: the winning party then determines the boundaries of the new congressional districts, and so it goes on. This is a similar type of issue, and we have to be very cautious as to how we deal with it.

There is a general sense overall that the operation of the Northern Ireland institution is far too complicated and expensive, and everyone has the general view that it should be reduced. How you do that is very important and can have a significant political outcome, so I caution your Lordships that if we agree to this, it will hand the ability to whoever happens to be in charge when this happens to draw up the numbers to suit themselves, because proportional representation under the single transferable vote is very sensitive to the number of seats in each constituency that are contested.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I spoke to this question at Second Reading. I have a concern about the question of the reduction in the numbers of Members of the Assembly. I do not share the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and others in other places that the Northern Ireland Assembly is too big. I think that there is a certain minimum size; I hear from colleagues in Wales that the Welsh Assembly is too small, and that it is actually very difficult for it to accommodate all the requirements for committees to scrutinise Ministers, for internal committees and to do all the necessary things. There is a certain minimum size below which it is difficult to address all the required functions. Of course, in the case of Northern Ireland, unlike in Wales and Scotland, there is a very significant cross-border responsibility that is present in dealing with another state, which is not something that has to be done in quite the same way by other devolved institutions.

I am not convinced about the question of the reduction of the size of the Assembly, particularly since, after the Belfast agreement, there has been a decision to bring a major reduction in the number of local authorities and the number of elected representatives. We are going to move from a substantial number of elected local representatives to a much smaller number, while at the same time talking about a possible reduction of Assembly Members. I am not persuaded by that.

The second issue is the question that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, picked up: the people who will deliver on a decision will be the majority. In the old days the majority was from one side of the community, and the manipulation of electoral boundaries and votes was not at all unknown—in fact, it was quite a significant issue. One of the problems that I find, looking back at it from this side of the water, is that people over here sometimes assume that if major parties on both sides of the community agree, that is all you need to know. It is perfectly possible for two large parties, one on either side of the community, to agree to do something that is a major and inappropriate disadvantage to minority parties on both sides of the community or from neither.

There is a real danger that if this became a reserved matter, the two largest parties, one on either side of the community, could come forward with an agreed set of proposals that would advantage them electorally and politically in a way that was inappropriate but would be very difficult to resist because of, if we take the argument that the Minister made, the danger of a Secretary of State or people from this side of the water imposing their will. What does that mean? It means that if the two largest parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly came forward with a proposal, it would be rather difficult for a Secretary of States to withstand it and not be accused of inappropriately affecting affairs when there would be a cross-community agreement to move on that front. So there is a real danger, and I have to say that I am not at all enthusiastic about giving powers to the two large parties in the Assembly—that is what this amounts to—to affect the number of elected representatives per constituency. That would have a major impact, and we could live to rue the day if it were able to proceed.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I know that a number of your Lordships have been contacted by the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland. While the commissioners do not oppose the devolution of their functions, they are very concerned that they at present do not have the benefit of formal legislative provisions. This distinguishes them from their counterparts here in Whitehall. Civil servants generally are sometimes, like politicians, the butt of jokes, and I am sure many a cartoonist has made a living out of it, but the Northern Ireland Civil Service over many difficult years ensured a degree of civilisation where proper governance continued, despite threats, both personal and real. It is important that its impartiality in serving whatever Administration it happens to serve is maintained.

I see one distinguished former Secretary of State in his seat. He will know the importance of having that impartial advice available. I believe that the Civil Service Commissioners want to ensure that that remains the case. They would like the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010—it puts the Home Civil Service Commission on a statutory footing and enshrines in law the requirement that selection of appointment to the Civil Service should be on merit, following fair and open competition—to apply to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. I think that they are very anxious that devolution of this function should not take place until that is achieved.

That is not a very difficult issue. We have seen in the past 24 hours what can happen when people have to say things about public appointments. Given the circumstances which we come from, and the history, background and substantial achievements of the Northern Ireland Civil Service under difficult circumstances, it is important that we take any and every measure we can to ensure that that impartiality is guaranteed, is in statute, that there is no ambiguity and that no political influence could subsequently be brought to bear were attempts to be made over the years to try to interfere in who was appointed to which posts.

This is a sensitive issue throughout the United Kingdom. The amendment is just another small step in attempting to ensure that that impartiality is guaranteed long into the future, and that it, and the respect in which the Civil Service is widely held in Northern Ireland, is retained. I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I was happy to put my name to the amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pioneered. I support many of the things that he said.

I will give two examples; a modest one, and one perhaps more substantial and persuasive. This question of maintaining the non-partisan stance and community appreciation of the Northern Ireland Civil Service is of enormous importance. Quite a lot has been written about the peace process in Northern Ireland, and most of it concentrates on negotiations between politicians, the people who are brought in from outside to assist, the role played by the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach and, in some cases, the impact of the United States, the European Union, the NGOs and so on. Very few of those papers point up the importance of civil servants in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, yet they were absolutely critical. A few of those civil servants—nominated by the Secretary of State and his successors—basically spent all their time engaging with politicians right across, and in some cases beyond, the spectrum to keep the process alive. Whether Governments changed, whether leaders of the political parties changed, with all the ups and down of elections those civil servants continued to meet. They would make minutes. They would ensure that meetings were held. They would keep people in touch with each other.

Very little is written about it. It was absolutely essential. As I have involved myself in peace processes in various other parts of the world, I have come to realise how important it was. In many places, almost right across the Middle East, for example, this is not a tradition in the civil service. It is difficult to make peace processes work in some of these places precisely because there is no civil service there of that kind—no non-political, non-partisan civil service.

I give another example. One of the problems I had when I became the first Speaker of the Assembly was how to staff it. Nobody had been there for decades, running, as clerks or other officials, an Assembly. There was only one body of people who could be called upon in sufficient numbers: the Northern Ireland Civil Service. People, particularly on the nationalist and republican side, were very anxious about this. They had come to a view, for particular reasons, some of them based on experience and some of them on suspicion, that the Northern Ireland civil servants would be biased towards unionists. We had a lot of negotiation about it, but we all came to the conclusion that there was no alternative, so the agreement was that we would take these people in—however, on only a three-year contract. During that period, there would be open advertisement, and people would come in from other places in society and outside Northern Ireland. There would have to be this transitional process.

The fascinating thing was this: as that period of three years went on, it became increasingly apparent to nationalists and republicans that the concerns they had had about the non-partisan nature of the Northern Ireland Civil Service were actually pretty groundless. As we came near the end of the time, people from those communities wanted to keep on many of the staff who had proved themselves perfectly capable of being loyal to a power-sharing cross-community Executive and Assembly. That was the quality of people and, to some extent, the culture, which was a more non-partisan one than was realised.

I have a real anxiety—in this situation, I do not think that examples on this side of the water are necessarily perfect—that Members of the Government on both sides in Northern Ireland might well be tempted to influence the appointment of some senior civil servants in a way that would not ultimately be in the interests of any of us in Northern Ireland. I ask the Minister to take very seriously the amendment put forward in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and myself, and to take it away and look at whether it is possible to accommodate the very legitimate concerns—not concerns about devolution of the function but about protection of the devolution of this function from adverse and partisan impact.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I was one of those contacted by the chairperson of the Northern Ireland Civil Service Commissioners about this matter and I support the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey said, this is a simple matter. It really should be straightforward and I cannot see that there can be a serious objection to the amendment that the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Alderdice, have tabled.

In the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, the provision was made to enshrine in statute the obligation of the Civil Service Commissioners that appointment to the Civil Service should be on merit following fair and open competition. We have always taken that as a constitutional principle of our Government. That Act did not apply to Northern Ireland—not that it was deliberately excluded for any particular reason, but it simply did not apply. However, exactly the same principles should apply, and I think everybody would want them to apply, to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Indeed, because of the divided history of the Northern Ireland community there is a particularly strong reason why they should apply.

I was very pleased to hear what the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Alderdice, said, because over many years I worked with members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, as it were from the inside rather than working with them from a political perspective. My experience was exactly the same as theirs, as I would have expected: that members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service were politically impartial and appointed on merit. It took 150 years before these principles of fair and open competition were embodied in statute in Britain, following the Northcote-Trevelyan report. Once they have been embodied in statute, it seems to me that the same thing should be done for Northern Ireland, and before a question of devolving this function should take place. I strongly support the amendment. I hope the Government will say that they see no objection to it.

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Debate on whether Clause 11 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, this clause deals with the potential for devolution of certain aspects of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. Human rights is a particularly important and sensitive issue in all jurisdictions, not just those in which there are conflicts. It takes on particular characteristics where there is communal and intercommunal conflict. I well remember discussions at a very early stage among the political parties and the two Governments, well before those with which George Mitchell and colleagues were involved—right back to the days of Sir Ninian Stephen, whom some of your Lordships will probably have forgotten. It was very interesting because at that stage four political parties and the British and Irish Governments were involved. It was fascinating that the four political parties could all agree that we needed robust human rights protections. It is generally not that difficult to get people, particularly opposition parties to agree. In those days, all the parties in Northern Ireland were opposition parties. If you say, “Do you want the rights of your people to be protected?”, they say, “Yes, of course”. If you say, “Do you want the rights of everybody else to be protected?”, it is difficult to say, “No, I just want our rights protected”.

The four parties involved at that stage all agreed and those who found it most difficult were the British and Irish Governments. They could see the implications of embodying this in statute and setting up human rights commissions, and so on. What is important about that is that when people are in government they have a very different perspective on human rights from when they are in opposition. This is why I have a real anxiety and wonder how much thinking there has been about the question proposed in Clause 11. I would be interested to know from the Minister who exactly has asked for this; certainly the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has not asked for it. If the Northern Ireland Government have asked for it, I am particularly suspicious—not because of the occupants of those offices but because, in principle, the point of human rights commissions is to speak truth to power and to challenge.

That is why in Scotland, it is not the Scottish Government but the Scottish Parliament that addresses these issues. I want to explore whether we are talking about devolution to the Executive—to government—of more control of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, about which I would have considerable anxiety, or whether we are talking about the possibility that it might be devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, where a whole range of the community is represented by elected representatives. There is a sort of reason for this. One of roles and responsibilities of the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly is that every piece of legislation, before it comes to First Reading, must have the Speaker’s approval that it conforms to the European Convention on Human Rights. Before the legislation leaves the Assembly, in case any amendments have been passed that change that, it must have approval again. At various stages, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission can intervene in the legislative process precisely to make sure that the governing parties cannot of themselves put into legislation things that do not conform to proper international human rights requirements.

I would be interested to find out where the drive has come from for this particular change. Is it a question of giving more power to the Northern Ireland Executive to control those who are supposed to hold them to account, or is it possible that we might look at devolution to the Northern Ireland Assembly? That would at least ensure that it was not those in government appointing those who scrutinise government, but rather that it was the Assembly as a whole. At least that would be some form of protection.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Clause 11 embodies a significant step towards the devolution of function in relation to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.

I do not want to leap ahead to the amendment in my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Black. That will be discussed in its own time. There is, however, a particular irony here. The key issue in that amendment is the continuing reluctance of the Northern Ireland Assembly to accord to the citizens of Northern Ireland the same level of freedom of expression that exists in the rest of the United Kingdom since the recent passing of the Defamation Act 2013. It seems a heavy irony that we should be proposing to devolve functions related to human rights precisely at the same time as we have a denial by the same Assembly of what is a pretty sensitive question in this particular respect. I do not want to anticipate a later discussion but it is relevant to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. The timing of this seems at least a little odd.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on such an important topic. My noble friend Lord Alderdice emphasised the fundamental importance of human rights to the successful establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. I shall deal first with the bread-and-butter issues for the clause to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 moves certain functions relating to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission from the excepted to the reserved category. Human rights issues have long been politically sensitive in Northern Ireland and at the time of the 1998 Act it was considered that functions relating to the new commission should remain in the Secretary of State’s hands. In the context of stable devolved institutions and of their development in the future, it may become desirable in due course to devolve responsibilities relating to the NIHRC if the Northern Ireland political parties so wish and if the Secretary of State considers that the Northern Ireland institutions are better placed than the Government to carry out the functions concerned. Clause 11 will mean that the appointment, functions, procedures and funding of the NIHRC will be reserved.

The Government made a commitment, in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill, to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the NIHRC and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed prior to any such devolution taking place. I reiterate that commitment today. We will also ensure that the NIHRC retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland such as national security and terrorism in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.

We understand the concerns that have been expressed both in this Committee and elsewhere that in the course of devolution the independence and freedom of action of the NIHRC should not be compromised. Indeed, not only do we understand those concerns, we fully share them. The independence of the commission is essential to its effectiveness. Its international standing is high and reflects that independence. We are well aware of the importance to the commission itself of the Belgrade and Paris principles, and it is essential that those are abided by. I also ask noble Lords to consider the benefits of devolution. I understand the concerns, but I ask them to consider the benefits. We believe that if it can be accomplished without compromise to the independence and important international standing of the commission, it would be a good thing. It would show that the institutions have matured. After all, in 2010, we accepted that they should take responsibility for sensitive matters such as policing and justice. It is not outrageous, therefore, to suggest that they should be capable of accommodating the independent oversight of institutions, as indeed they already do in various areas such as that of the police ombudsman, with due respect for propriety. So we do not believe that it is unthinkable that, at some point soon, the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland should take on responsibility for the NIHRC, but we are not asking for decisions at this point. All that the Bill does is to make it possible for such decisions to be reached and for effect to be given to them at a later date. If that happens, it will be after full consultation, because these issues need debate in Northern Ireland, of which we have had very little so far. Devolution would require votes in the Assembly by cross-community support and in both Houses here, so we shall certainly come back to these issues before any act of devolution.

I shall respond to some of the points made by noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, referred to the current lack of a chair of the commission. In fact the position will be advertised in the immediate future, so this temporary situation will be rectified in the near future. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the issue of timing. We shall come back to this, because it is the topic of an amendment later in these proceedings.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice asked who had initiated this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made a similar point. The Government have had discussions with various Northern Ireland political parties about possible devolution of the commission. Officials have also discussed the matter with the chair and the chief executive of the commission, and I discussed it with them a couple of weeks ago. I emphasise that the Government believe that it is important above all that there is broad support across the community for devolution before it takes it place.

[Lord Alderdice]

My noble friend may be able to help me and the House with one question of information that I asked, on whether what we are being asked to do is devolution only to the Executive, or whether it would open the possibility of devolution to the Executive or to the Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

I apologise to my noble friend for omitting that. We are not looking at a precise model of devolution at this moment, because that, of course, is to be effected after consultation. However, we are well aware that devolution in Scotland has been to the Parliament and that that is a very successful model of devolution. It is sensible to follow successful models where they exist rather than to apply a different model. However, the details will be subject to further consultation and will become obvious after there has been full consultation.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, there is no question that, from an administrative point of view, having the district electoral areas dealt with by the same commissioner who deals with each individual ward makes sense. However, as has been mentioned in the context of other issues, this is a very significant development under proportional representation, because the drawing up of district electoral areas out of wards has two consequences. The decision on how many seats to award for each district electoral area has consequences under proportional representation, and which particular wards make up that DEA is also an extremely sensitive issue. There are grey areas in many respects.

You cannot of course go around in life with a conspiracy theory always at the front of your mind, but I have to say that current experience—within the past couple of years—is not encouraging. I refer to the recent reorganisation of local government, which I have previously referred to elsewhere. The recommendation of the commissioner was overruled in one case. In my opinion, a scandalous gerrymander has occurred in the city of Belfast, and barely a word is said. I have absolutely no confidence that the time is right for this particular function to be considered for devolution. A lot of people say they want the single transferable vote system of proportional representation but fewer people perhaps have had full experience of it. We have had 40 years of experience and understand the significance of deciding on the number of seats. For each local government area, you have a number of district electoral areas, each of which is a collection of wards. Those areas can include, in our case, five, six or seven; in the Irish Republic it could be four or three. Those decisions on the number are very significant. Equally, deciding which particular group of wards form the DEA is also significant.

In many respects, that can lead to putting the cat in charge of the cream, to be perfectly blunt. At this stage, I feel that this is not an appropriate thing to do. Recent experience, as I said, is not encouraging and we could start to create the particular problem which, as referred to, was a problem in the past. Do we really want to go back down there again? It is not a big deal—I have to tell noble Lords that the people on the streets are not talking of little else—and not a source of difficulty, so why move to a position where that could happen? The point might well be made that we have done our local government DEAs—we have just passed the order today—so this is not something that will arise in the near future. That is indeed true, but so what? If it will not arise, and will not be necessary right now or in the foreseeable future, we can wait. Whenever it does come round, and when is needed, we can hope things will have sufficiently matured politically so that anxieties such as the ones I am expressing today are no longer held by individuals. It is for that reason that I put down this proposal.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that this is not a matter that is talked of every Friday and Saturday night in the pubs of Belfast. He is right about that, at this point, because it is not an issue. However, I have found in conversations with political friends and colleagues in the United States that districting is very much a matter of debate, because it is actually in place. You do not need to be a particular student of Northern Ireland history to know that manipulation of electoral boundaries and arrangements was a fundamental problem which led to many of our difficulties. I am a little puzzled as to why this has come up at this stage. I am delighted that we are 15 or 16 years on from the agreement, but we are not 15 or 16 years more mature than at the time of the agreement and it is quite clear that it is very difficult to reach agreement on a whole raft of issues in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I would feel much more relaxed about this if, over the past 15 or 16 years, we had passed a whole series of constructive pieces of legislation in the Northern Ireland Assembly and agreed on all sorts of community initiatives that had to be done, and if the walls of partition were coming down in the city of Belfast and the word “dissident”—whether loyalist or republican—was consigned to history and so on. In that case, I would probably not be standing up here.

However, I am not persuaded that the situation has changed so dramatically. If issues of flags, parades and the legacy of the past are bringing people out onto the streets, I fear that applying districting to Northern Ireland could well become a matter of enormous contention. I am not persuaded that adding this to the pot at the moment assists the parties in Northern Ireland in reaching agreement. It adds a further complexity and difficulty, and I am not persuaded that we need or could benefit from that at the moment.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I see that this amendment has been reprinted on another sheet of paper and described as Amendment 4(rev). I have looked at the amendment on the main document and I see that “Civil” has become “Civic” I am rather in favour of a civic forum being civil as well. However, I turn to the substance.

The business of having a civic forum was set out in paragraph 34 of strand 1 of the Belfast agreement. Earlier today we heard the Minister say that the principles of the Belfast agreement are fundamental. The Civic Forum was then enshrined in Section 56 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The problem is that, in terms of that Act, it is almost an aspiration, or something that may happen between now and infinity.

A Civic Forum was established in October 2000 but it was suspended, alongside the Northern Ireland Assembly, in 2002. That is now 12 years ago and the Civic Forum is still not functioning. We must realise why it was put there in the first place. When the Belfast agreement came to pass, there were tremendous numbers of people in civic and civil society in Northern Ireland egging on that there was an agreement and they wanted to be part of it. There is a sense that we are all in this together, but there are those who cannot bring themselves to be part of political parties. We know what has happened throughout our kingdom with membership of political parties. There are plenty of people who are interested in the political process and civicness but cannot bring themselves to be associated with political parties. An opportunity arises, under the Belfast agreement, for such people and those in non-governmental bodies, quangos and everything else to be involved in this forum. It will bring people together. We hear about there being a “shared future”—a splendid phrase—in Northern Ireland. The establishment of the Civic Forum will hold the political parties to making certain it is a shared future and not a shared-out future.

In 2013 the Northern Ireland Assembly passed two resolutions that the Civic Forum should be reconstituted. The amendment in my name is gentle but firm. It is gentle because it suggests there is time—up to 12 months—to re-form the Civic Forum and that there is further consultation. This is not putting it into legislation with a heavy hand. I hope we can, by legislation, make certain that the Civic Forum happens and is effective and that the principles of the Belfast agreement are fundamental. I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I commend my noble friend Lord Shutt of Greetland and support his amendment. We have been discussing a number of amendments which go way beyond what was agreed by the Northern Ireland parties and the two Governments in the Good Friday agreement. There is some space for debate and discussion on those issues, but at least one of the parties which supported the agreement had the mantra that it has to be in the agreement; the Belfast agreement has to be fully implemented. Here, in one hugely significant element, the Belfast agreement is not being implemented.

One might ask why, if there was sufficient enthusiasm to get it into the agreement, it fell into disarray so quickly. One could look at the forum itself and whether it performed to its maximum; one could, perhaps, say the same thing about the Assembly. However, there was a dynamic there which may not be familiar to the House. During the long period of direct rule, the Government here at Westminster—the Secretary of State and members of the Northern Ireland Office—wanted to find some way to relate with the Northern Ireland community. There was great difficulty in relating with elected representatives who were, in any case, elected either to the other place or to local authorities because there was not an Assembly. It was very common to invite people from NGOs and civil society generally to drinks at Stormont and Hillsborough, and to discuss with people who were running sometimes very commendable NGOs what would be a good way of spending money locally, how things should be organised and who might be appointed to bodies.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, a few moments ago we were talking about the Belfast agreement and the obligation of those parties who supported it to uphold it. Undoubtedly, if you make an agreement you might subject it to a referendum, a subject regularly discussed in your Lordships’ House. We are getting in the mood now for all sorts of referendums. We had a referendum in 1998 and the agreement was agreed. However, that is not where it ended. One of the reasons we have difficulty is that that agreement was worked out after many months—in fact, years—of delicate negotiations. At the core is the concept of a partnership, which is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made earlier. I understand his point about designation and that he has an issue, but at the core was the concept of a partnership. That partnership was such that those at the top of the Government each had a hand on the wheel. That obviously made decision-making much more difficult but it was the only way that we could figure of getting people to consent to the re-establishment of devolution.

The noble Lords, Lord Kilclooney and Lord Alderdice, and others, sat at the table when these matters were discussed; the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, sat there with the rest of us. We looked at these issues and came to a conclusion. We set out, as was set out clearly in the 1998 Act, how we were going to identify the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. These are the people who are charged with the responsibility of oversight and for steering the business of the devolved Assembly. They jointly chair the Executive.

In legal terms, the two personages are absolutely equal; there is no distinction between them. I know that clearly because, when I occupied the post for a short time with Seamus Mallon, the first issue we had to agree was the notepaper: you could not send out a letter from the department without both signatures. Because Seamus Mallon was the Deputy First Minister and I was coming in in place of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who was the First Minister, he assumed that his name would go to the left-hand side of the notepaper, and that mine would go to the right-hand side. I said, “No. I am not substituting for you; I am substituting for him”. Consequently, we were unable to send a letter out for a week. The settlement was that I went on the left-hand side as Minister for Enterprise, a post which I held in parallel with First Minister, and his name stayed where it was. That was a classic case. The point is that it is a partnership.

Unilaterally, and behind our backs in 2006, this process was torn up. In the original agreement, the First and Deputy First Ministers’ names had to go before the Northern Ireland Assembly in a joint Motion that they both be appointed to their respective positions. That meant that the Northern Ireland Assembly had to agree, by cross-community consent, who the First and Deputy First Ministers would be. The Northern Ireland Assembly now has no say in that. That was removed at a stroke and replaced by the current system, which is that whichever party is the largest from one designation and whichever is the largest from the other designation between them occupy the two posts. The Assembly is not involved.

What has happened? This turns all subsequent elections into sectarian headcounts. People go around the country saying, “If you don’t vote for me, Martin McGuinness will be First Minister”. Somebody else says, “If you vote for me, I can put Peter Robinson out”. The fact that there is no difference in the powers that either of them exercises is set aside. If we made any mistake in 1998, perhaps the titles that we chose for these two offices were wrong. We have created a hierarchy where no hierarchy exists.

However, that is how the system works. How it came about is another bone of contention. The agreement was agreed by all parties sitting around the table with Senator Mitchell. On this change, which radically altered the dynamics of devolution, my party was not consulted, the Social Democratic and Labour Party was not consulted and I suspect that the Alliance Party was not consulted. It may have applied to others, too. It was just done, and appeared in the draft of the Bill. It was not part of the St Andrews agreement; while it was part of the St Andrews agreement Act, it was not dealt with at St Andrews. It came out of nowhere; it was just produced as a deal and appeared in the Bill. When I saw it, I knew exactly what was happening and why. It was a major mistake, and people say to us that every part of the agreement should be implemented, when a part of the agreement that was implemented in good faith was simply torn up before our eyes, without our consent or knowledge.

I cannot say how strongly many of us feel about this, and it has contributed very much to the stalemate that we have. I understand that the Government were doing their best to get the show back on the road. I do not impugn the motives of the Prime Minister of the time who did this. However, it was a significant and unfortunate course of events, first, to create a row over nothing—when there is no difference between the powers of the two persons elected—and, secondly, to change the dynamics of electoral politics in Assembly elections much more in favour of sectarian headcounts than ever was the case before. Under the original proposals in the Belfast agreement, you would not have had a situation where the First and Deputy First Minister were elected without the consent of the Assembly.

Once you lose the link between the Assembly and the First and Deputy First Minister, they inevitably feel less obligated. That is a mistake. It is interesting that, in the Irish Parliament, the Taoiseach is elected by the members of the Dáil. You might say that if that is the case, it is the very last thing that I would want in Northern Ireland but it is not, because the partnership principle is paramount. If we made a mistake, we did so in the titles of the two positions. However, who could have foreseen that somebody would go behind your back eight years later, without consulting you or participating in any process whatever, and just produce a clause in a Bill out of nowhere? I hear so many speakers—the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and others—saying today, “Oh, this is the Assembly and we cannot do anything—it was part of the agreement”, or, “It was up to Stormont”, or whatever. That is true, but whenever it suited the Government they just made a change like that without a by-your-leave.

That is the rationale for the amendment. It is also almost, to the word, the same position that was adopted by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, who is not in her place at the moment. She pioneered a similar amendment in 2006, when the St Andrews agreement Bill was going through this House. She opposed the introduction of this proposal on the same grounds and I think that the then Opposition took the same view. That is the background, and why the amendment is before your Lordships.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, expects the amendment to be passed. He is raising it to make an important point.

I will briefly take his point from a slightly different angle, which is particularly important for people looking into Northern Ireland from outside. Everyone is familiar with the fact that the history of the 20th century in Northern Ireland was one in which a substantial minority felt that it was not fairly involved and a significant majority was constantly in control. That is largely true. However, from that came an assumption that if you could get an agreement that had support from the majority on the two sides of the community, it must be a good thing and should simply be accepted without too much argument.

That is a serious mistake. It is wholly possible to create an environment in which a majority rule in two sections of the community can be, if not as bad, certainly not very commendable. When we look at the majority in the community as a whole, we realise that that, on its own, is not satisfactory in a divided community. This is an issue way beyond just Northern Ireland. When people look into divided communities, whether in Syria, Israel/Palestine or other areas, they should not assume that just because you get a majority on each side that you have a satisfactory outcome. It may be more satisfactory than getting a majority from only one side, but it is not of itself a satisfactory outcome. When noble Lords look not just at this Bill but at other Bills, it is important to think about the implicit warning of the noble Lord, Lord Empey: solving the problem is not just a matter of satisfying a majority within each of the two pillars. On that, and on the principle behind it, he is right and not just for Northern Ireland.

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I therefore put it to your Lordships that we have here a gap in our defences as a country. I partly understand the reasons why the agency is not there. First, Sinn Fein will never agree to anything that is done on a national basis, particularly in this area—I might be wrong about that, and I hope that I am. The other party that objected to it has other reasons, and I hope that it will be possible to address them. However, at the end of the day, our objective must be to have the best security and anti-crime prevention that we can put in place. To have this gap in Northern Ireland creates a vacuum, which will be filled over time if it remains. However, I will hold the Government to the commitment that they made through the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, when he said that if circumstances arose in which there was a clear risk to the United Kingdom as a whole the Government would act responsibly. The question is: when will that time arise? I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I have spoken on this issue before on a number of occasions. I did so right from the beginning, when the legislation first came forward, when it became apparent to me that there needed to be discussion not just with parties of Northern Ireland but with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, because we have a land border with them.

One of my concerns at home in the last little while has been that a new generation of people, including politicians, have come forward who do not know what had to be done in the past to reach the agreements. They do not understand the language and the choreography that was necessary. That is not just a matter for Northern Ireland. It is apparent to me that on this side of the water there are people in senior positions in government who do not realise what had to be done to reach accommodations in the past. For example, it was unthinkable, even in those days, that a Government—in which the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, who is no longer in his place here, served—would have embarked on a key issue of security policy that involved the border area without any discussion with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, and that was long before many of the agreements with which the subsequent political progress was made. The Labour Administration, particularly under Tony Blair, would never have engaged in some kind of agreement on security issues without discussing it with the Government of the Republic of Ireland. The Taoiseach and the Prime Minister had a very close relationship.

When I raised the question of whether there had been serious discussions between the Home Office and the department of justice in the Republic of Ireland—and I am talking about the Bill team stage, not after the legislation had been passed—I was astonished, because I was looked at as if it was an extraordinary question. Yet the responsibilities of the NCA will include border regions, and there is only one land frontier in the United Kingdom. I have raised that again and again, and I must say that from time to time Secretaries of State and Ministers—in particular I mention in dispatches David Ford, the Justice Minister—have worked extremely hard to try to ensure that the Irish Government were brought in to assist us in getting the agreement of some of the parties in Northern Ireland that find it most difficult to agree on those kinds of things. Therefore there have been efforts from within elements of the British Government here and from within the Northern Ireland Executive, but it is also clear that at some very senior levels there is no appreciation that you cannot simply take these things for granted within that part of the United Kingdom.

I support the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in raising this question, not because I think it should be dealt with in this particular piece of legislation, but—as he said earlier on, and it is true—because it is not every day that a piece of legislation relating to Northern Ireland comes forward without being governed by emergency provisions of some description and rushed through the two Houses. In fact, this is probably the first time in 16 years that we have had a piece of Northern Ireland legislation that has not come through under emergency provisions of some description. Therefore, it gives us an opportunity to raise these kinds of matters.

This is a serious issue: it is not going to go away; it has the potential to become more serious; and, unless the British Government relate with the Irish Government in trying to assist parties in Northern Ireland to achieve an outcome, I do not think it is going to be successful. I warned about this at the time and it did not seem to register, so it is no surprise that we are in the difficulty that we are in. People did not take the advice at the time; they did not think it was necessary. I hope they have learned and begin to take action. As I said, this does not fall in the lap of either the current or the previous Secretary of State for Northern Ireland because they actually realised the problem, but it was not in their bailiwick at the time. It was in that of another government department. They worked very hard, as did the Justice Minister, David Ford, but I hope the warning that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has cited will be heard again and reverberate until we get a proper outcome for this.

[Lord Browne of Belmont]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in relation to the National Crime Agency. Failure to extend the full operation of the National Crime Agency to Northern Ireland seriously jeopardises security in the province. Failure to extend the work of the agency to cover every part of the United Kingdom is the equivalent of putting up an “open for business” sign over the Province.

In the Police Service of Northern Ireland, we have one of the most accountable police forces in the world, with constant checks and balances, scrutiny and high-level review. With the introduction of the National Crime Agency, this high level of scrutiny would continue. The head of the National Crime Agency, under statute, would appear in front of the Northern Ireland Policing Board once every year. Significantly, the NCA could not operate in devolved matters at all without the instruction of the chief constable. Despite these control mechanisms, some politicians in Northern Ireland have constantly blocked attempts to allow the full operation of the NCA. That leaves those involved in all levels of organised crime in a much better position than they were previously. A fully operational National Crime Agency would be a vital tool in tackling serious and organised crime such as human trafficking and the illicit drugs trade and in preventing terrorist attacks. At a time when my noble friend Lord Morrow is working tirelessly to stamp out human trafficking in Northern Ireland, it is vital that an operational agency is in place that can support this work. Therefore, I support this amendment.

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[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that the issue of victims and survivors is a very difficult and delicate matter, and one that needs attention, but I do not feel able to go along with him on this amendment. There are many reasons, but at this time of the evening I shall restrict myself to a couple.

First, in discussing the needs of victims and survivors, two different issues have been mixed. I think this affected the Haass process as well. The first issue is the welfare, treatment, counselling and all that is involved in helping individuals who have suffered as victims—people who have been in bombings, shootings or attacks, or have observed them, or who have been affected through their families. These individuals need to receive appropriate care and attention, which has not been happening. This has never been given proper attention. I remember quite some time ago putting two Written Questions to the Secretary of State asking if had there had been any exploration of the sort of funds and resources that were required in other countries to deal with these kinds of things. The answer was no, it had not even been looked at.

There is no question that the care that individual victims need has not received the attention that it ought to have had. The health service, perhaps even more than the voluntary organisations, has not had the resources it ought to have had. I say that as someone who set up and ran a centre for psychotherapy to try to deal with a range of problems, including some of these difficulties. However, that is a separate issue from how a community as a whole deals with the impact of violence upon itself. That is different in kind. The two things are confused all the time, which is one of the reasons why we have not got anywhere with addressing this issue. I do not want to say more because it is a major, complicated and difficult issue, but I am quite clear that there are two separate questions. One question is in many ways not frightfully contentious, so it is surprising that so little attention has been paid to it, but the other is more complex and difficult. This amendment does not sufficiently distinguish between them.

The second reason is that there is a kind of black and white clarity in the amendment. That certainly applies in respect of certain individual circumstances; there is no doubt about that. You can point to particular circumstances in which it is clearly an iniquity that matters are dealt with in the way that they are. However, big cases of that kind do not necessarily make good law, because many smaller circumstances would be swept into an amendment like this. Because someone breaks the law—not necessarily in a major way—it does not mean that there should be no possibility of any kind of recognition of their situation.

Northern Ireland: Royal Residence

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the Royal Family is to be commended for its loyalty and for the work that it has done with Northern Ireland. We all remember the significance almost two years ago of the Queen’s handshake. The existence of Hillsborough Castle as a royal residence is guaranteed under the new arrangements, and full facilities for royal access will be there. It will be easy for members of the Royal Family to use the castle when they wish for their royal duties in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, given the extraordinary—indeed, transformational—effect of Her Majesty’s visit to the Republic of Ireland, and the fact that Hillsborough Castle is not only a royal residence but a place of enormous political significance on the island of Ireland because of the signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement and the importance of other negotiations, there is a real possibility of tourist potential not just from within Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but that many people south of the border will be keen to come to Hillsborough Castle for its associations with Her Majesty and the Royal Family, as well as the important political associations that it also has?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the intention is that the new arrangements will make it easier to attract both domestic and foreign tourists to visit Hillsborough Castle. It is important to remember that as well as being a beautiful castle—a beautiful building with beautiful grounds—it has tremendous historic significance. It is important to remember that royal tourism alone is estimated to be worth £500 million a year to the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is important that we open up the castle as much as possible—and considerably more than has been possible in the past.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, when the notion of a Northern Ireland Bill was first discussed a couple of years ago, the Secretary of State at that time undoubtedly considered that the centrepiece of the Bill which he hoped to see through would be the devolution of corporation tax. I suspect that most noble Lords and indeed Members of the other place will see this as a very modest Bill because of the failure to be able to include that measure. I perfectly understand the concerns about the impact that such a proposal might have on Scotland. However, I think that that is mistaken: the argument for the devolution of corporation tax in relation to Northern Ireland is wholly different because of the existence of a land border, and that fundamentally changes the economic questions and challenges. Therefore, when the Minister says that there are no fundamental changes in the Bill, she is absolutely right, and that makes it a fairly modest provision.

The measure which I guess was not considered when the Bill was first thought of a couple of years ago concerned the position of the Justice Minister. That really emerged only at a later stage. I very much welcome the regularising of this situation. I know that my former colleagues in the Alliance Party found themselves having more Ministers than would be justified by their votes, although not by their abilities. However, in all fairness, they, like others, would feel that it is better to regularise this and to give a degree of stability to the position of the Justice Minister. In the context of Northern Ireland the Department of Justice is even more important than it is in any other state, although it is always an important ministry. Indeed, today, with the results of the Smithwick tribunal being announced, we recognise and recall that issues of justice and policing have always been central, difficult and contentious. I pay tribute to my friend and colleague David Ford, who has, I think, fulfilled this role with considerable distinction. It is not an easy role but he has worked hard at it and deservedly has gained considerable respect for the work he has done.

The rest of the measures are relatively minor and some of them are wholly unobjectionable from my point of view. I declare an interest as a serving member of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. A number of these measures were recommended by the committee. I suspect that the current chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Bew of Donegore, probably will have something to say about that. I welcome the transparency of donations, although I feel that that could go considerably further. I have always been a bit sceptical of the degree of caution that there has been on this question over quite a number of years. The dangers are a lot less than people have claimed in recent years. It may not have been the case quite some time ago. Double-jobbing also was raised by the Committee on Standards in Public Life. I welcome too the relatively minor electoral measures brought forward.

One of the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, is whether this Bill might have been made a bit more substantial by some kind of legislation on dealing with the past. Dealing with the past is a very difficult issue. I notice the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, in his place and no one needs to tell him about the difficulties in dealing with that issue. I am exerting myself considerably in thinking about it. I am not persuaded that lawyers or legislation will necessarily be the right way to deal with what is fundamentally a question of difficulties about identity. I hope that we find a way forward and that Dr Haass and his colleague Meghan O’Sullivan can assist us in that way, although I am not at all sure that we need more flags. We probably have enough of those in Northern Ireland.

However, there are two measures about which I would express a little caution. First, on the size of the Assembly, I know that in times of austerity the need for efficiency and care about money is important but there was a reason why the Assembly was larger than was justified by the number of electors. It is about dealing with a range of issues from a range of perspectives and having an Assembly large enough to make it function. For example, the Welsh Assembly is much smaller but there are substantial complaints about its size.

A number of people are proposing that we probably need something like 100 Members because certain fundamental functions need to be carried out to make an Assembly viable. I have a concern with the proposal that it should effectively be given, albeit with the say-so of the Secretary of State, to the two large parties to determine the representation size in the Assembly. I could see a temptation on those parties to reduce the numbers and the numbers in the electoral areas in such a fashion that those who vote for it might benefit most from it. One reason why past measures were accepted was that there was always a danger that those who were in power might use them to their own advantage, which is the fundamental problem in the Northern Ireland situation. It is one of the limitations of democracy in a society which is bedevilled by the problems we know well.

I understand what is being proposed and certainly my former colleagues in the Alliance Party have been very supportive of this kind of proposition. I believe that they are concerned about efficiency, reasonableness and so on. I remain somewhat concerned. I just want to flag that up. I hope that my noble friend and her civil servants and officials will think seriously about this issue. One could be creating a problem for the future.

The same thing applies to the human rights commission. It needs to be able to speak truth to power. It needs to be able to challenge authority. One of the dangers of repatriating arrangements and appointments to the commission might well be to create a similar kind of problem. Whereas there is a feeling on this side of the water that, “They are all grown-up boys and girls over there and they should just get on with things”, I am not sure that we are quite at that stage in Northern Ireland. There are still some difficulties that we need to find our way through before having that degree of confidence. So I flag up those concerns.

Of course, I support the general thrust of the Bill and wish it well. I hope, too, that it might not be too long before we come back with a subsequent Bill that would fill out the more substantial things that perhaps should have been here in the first place.