Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Trimble for tabling this amendment. It has given us the opportunity to discuss and debate an important issue. This has done the process of government in Northern Ireland a service. There has been considerable support across the House for the principles behind this amendment, although some doubt in some quarters as to whether the amendment would work in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, believes that it would.

We all recognise that an effective, responsible Opposition perform a valuable service in a democracy in keeping a Government on their toes and ensuring they deliver effectively on the basis of sound policy. That has been common to the speeches made this afternoon. Opposition helps to expose abuses. It gives people a clear choice between alternative approaches to issues of public concern. It is likely to enhance challenge to government and to spur on innovation. That is something that the present system in Northern Ireland, notwithstanding much scrutiny work by the Assembly, arguably lacks.

The system of government under the Belfast agreement in Northern Ireland is unusual, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, complex, in that it involves a mandatory coalition in which all parties meeting certain size criteria are entitled to take part. Oppositions therefore do not come into being as they do here. Parties, as noble Lords have pointed out, are entitled to decline their right to fill their allocated posts. They are entitled to take up an opposition stance. However, as noble Lords have pointed out, no party has so far sought to do so. The noble Lord’s amendment seeks to deal with the issue of why there would be that insecurity in seeking opposition status.

The Government consulted on the question of an Opposition in 2012, but concluded that there was not sufficiently broad support among the parties to justify proceeding with legislation that would change the legislative structure deriving from the Belfast agreement in any way. At that point, the Government also made clear that they would in no circumstances envisage departing from the basic principles of power-sharing and inclusivity.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked for clarification on the issue of powers. At the time that they consulted, the Government raised the possibility that the Assembly itself could make some greater provision for an Opposition through changes to its procedures, as laid out in Standing Orders. This point has been well canvassed here this afternoon. It would be open to the Assembly to make provision in that way for, as has been suggested, extra speaking rights, entitlement to supply days, and arrangements for the chairing of the Public Accounts Committee, with which the amendment deals—the “missing link”, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, called it. Those are the attractions of opposition. There are attractions to being in government. If you want parties to choose opposition status, they have to have a guarantee for that to be an attractive position to seek.

The issue has been considered by the Assembly’s own Assembly and Executive Review Committee, but no consensus has yet emerged. Many will find this failure to provide more effectively for opposition a disappointment.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether the Assembly had the powers to accord the rights set out in the amendment through its Standing Orders. As I understand it, the point of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is to prevent those rights being removed at a point in the future. The Assembly could do this itself but, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has pointed out, it could take away that right in the future. I believe it is that uncertainty that the amendment seeks to address. It is important that a formal Opposition should have sufficient status if they are to be effective in holding the Executive to account. The Government will reflect on what has been said in the debate and we will certainly return to this on Report.

My noble friend Lord Lexden reflected on the breadth of support for the principle of opposition. That is clearly the case here today but there are of course, at the same time, differences among us as to how you might seek to enshrine that position of formal opposition status within the Standing Orders of the Assembly. My noble friend Lord Lexden also pointed to this as an important step in what one would call the normalisation of Northern Ireland politics. That is the thread that runs behind the Bill.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice looked back to the history of the situation and referred to what was, at one point, the permanence of the Ulster Unionist Party’s position in government for a long period of time, and the dramatic change that then occurred. He discussed the reasons why that happened and the problems within the current arrangements for those parties that do not want to be designated as either unionist or nationalist. Those parties also have to be taken into account in the arrangements for any future Opposition. My noble friend Lord Alderdice pointed to some technical problems with the amendment, which the Government will have to take away and consider.

As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, this is really a decision that must be taken within the Assembly. The UK Government can point in a direction, facilitate and encourage, but the Government would certainly not, in any way, seek to impose anything from outside. The principles of power-sharing and the Belfast agreement are absolutely fundamental in this, and any arrangements must be made with cross-community support and with a broad agreement across society. The Assembly has also discussed this. Mr John McCallister MLA raised the issue and is contemplating a Private Member’s Bill in the Assembly on the issue of opposition in the coming months. I regret to say that, so far, there is no indication of any greater consensus forthcoming on that than there was when the Government consulted on the issue of an Official Opposition in 2012.

I return to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, which would not overcome that lack of consensus. In the view of the Government, there would need to be an approach from the Assembly to the Secretary of State before any of the rights that he envisages could be accorded. However, as he explained, the intention behind his amendment is that the Assembly could not then unilaterally withdraw these rights. Once accorded by the Secretary of State, they would presumably be permanent. The noble Lord has made a very good point. He has called this “one small step” and “an additional right”.

The debate has given us all a good deal to think about. The Government will certainly reflect on what has been said on all sides this afternoon, and no doubt the House will return to the issue on Report. I hope that at that stage there might be a clearer sense of how we should proceed on this issue, essentially of what steps might be taken, consistent with the Belfast agreement and the current legislation, to facilitate the operation of opposition parties.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I apologise for interrupting. This is an important point. Will the Minister bear in mind the wise and experienced opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that opinions that can be seen as instructions from outside are often counterproductive?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct. He is emphasising the point that I made that the Government are well aware that there should be no direction from outside. It is absolutely fundamental that the Assembly itself reaches this agreement. The Government see their role as that of facilitating the operation of the opposition parties within the Assembly when the Assembly reaches that decision for itself.

There will clearly be views on this from well beyond this Chamber today, including from Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and I emphasise that the Government are interested in hearing those views. I hope that, in view of the indications that I have given, the noble Lord will agree at this point to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her decision that the Government will reflect on this. It is interesting that everyone around the Chamber agrees the basic principles. Perhaps we should invite Mr Richard Haass to come in and help us between now and Report. Failing that, if the Minister and other parties—

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the amendment allows us the opportunity to reflect on the continued importance of Westminster and the Northern Ireland Office in Northern Ireland. There is a vital role for Governments and the Secretary of State in bringing peace, progress and prosperity to Northern Ireland. These are areas where, at times, it is appropriate for the Government to lead and others to support, at all times working in partnership with the Assembly, the Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Much progress has been made since the Good Friday agreement, but there remains a need for a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past—the name Haass comes to mind—a process that has the victims and survivors of violence at the centre. As yet, there is no consensus within Northern Ireland as to the structures which would enable this. Nevertheless, it should be a priority of the Northern Ireland Office to facilitate and advance dialogue in this area. Dealing with the legacy of what has become known as the Troubles is expressly a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office. The publication of the Executive’s cohesion, sharing and integration strategy is good news, and the Secretary of State should co-operate with the Executive and provide support for initiatives designed to build, and to continue to build, a shared future in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland’s future, like that of other parts of the United Kingdom, can be built only on a strong economy and a compassionate welfare system. These are additional areas in which the Government must work with the Assembly. The Government should also acknowledge the effects that their policies on the economy and welfare are having in Northern Ireland. What could be regarded as inattentiveness has been evidenced in the Government’s inequitable welfare reforms. Thirty-two thousand households in Northern Ireland will be affected by the bedroom tax. Northern Ireland is being disproportionately affected, since almost 90% of social housing stock is family homes of three bedrooms or more—another exposure of the falsehood that people can somehow easily downsize their homes.

This amendment restates the important role that Westminster and the Government have to play within Northern Ireland. The use of these powers would help. The Northern Ireland Act established an important role for the Secretary of State; this Bill will reaffirm this. Both restate the need for active engagement by the Secretary of State with issues that affect Northern Ireland. The amendment is entirely probing to enable some discussion on the affairs of Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his amendment. It is always worth considering whether the arrangements in place for devolution are as effective as they might be and whether there is anything we can do to improve the way in which we work with devolved Administrations.

The noble Lord referred to the role of the Secretary of State and to the Haass talks. I reflect back to his speech on the previous amendment, in which he made it absolutely clear—and rightly so—that it was vital that we respect devolution and that the Government do not intervene where it is a matter for the devolved Assembly. I remind the noble Lord that the Government on occasions walk a narrow line between encouraging and leading in relation to the development and the firming-up of devolution in Northern Ireland. They walk a narrow line between that and interfering.

As noble Lords have already pointed out, interfering is a major mistake. The Secretary of State is very aware of this, in relation to the Haass talks in particular, because those talks were convened by the leaders of the political parties in Northern Ireland. It is a sign of the development and firming-up of politics and political institutions in Northern Ireland that these leaders felt confident enough to put hugely complex and difficult issues—the most difficult ones they face—into the discussions led by Dr Richard Haass. I am delighted to see that those discussions are still going on, with two meetings of the leaders of the political parties scheduled for this week. It is therefore absolutely essential, at this moment, that we trust them to take those issues forward and avoid the temptation to interfere. That does not mean that the Secretary of State is not watching this moment by moment and day by day or that she is not anxious for the Haass talks to succeed and for there to be progress on those difficult issues.

The noble Lord made it clear that this was a probing amendment, but it is essential that I address the details of it. Amendment 2 relates to ministerial functions. It is already the case that, if the Assembly wants to legislate to alter the functions of a UK Minister, or confer functions on a UK Minister, all it needs to do is ask for the Secretary of State’s consent. The formal consent process takes about 10 days. The amendment would, therefore, have a very limited impact because it would only remove that consent process in a small number of cases specified by the Secretary of State in advance.

The current process is not onerous and there have been no complaints from the Northern Ireland parties about the way that procedures have operated in this area to date. It is also notable that the consent process is very rarely used. Only one Assembly Bill—the marine Bill—has so far required the Secretary of State’s consent since the current Assembly was elected in 2011. Consent in relation to that Bill did not relate to ministerial functions, so it would not have been affected by the proposed amendment. Although I am grateful for the opportunity for debate that this amendment has brought, I do not believe that we should legislate for a problem that does not exist. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down I apologise: I should have been in a moment earlier. I want to reflect on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. Clause 6 deals with the reduction in size of the Assembly being a reserved matter. There is a general view that, at 108 Members, the Assembly is too big. Compared with the Welsh and Scottish assemblies it is proportionately far bigger, but the reason for this was a deliberate decision to try and make it as inclusive as possible. Some two years ago we thought that a solution would be brought upon us with the change in parliamentary constituencies, because reducing the number of parliamentary constituencies would automatically reduce the size of the Assembly—QED. However, one or two people around your Lordships’ House and in other places had different views, and consequently that did not come to pass. However, it would have been an important step.

I have to caution the House that the Assembly deciding on how to reduce its numbers is as important as actually reducing the numbers. Using the existing system, if you reduced the numbers and left the existing constituencies the same, it would be perfectly possible to have a major political impact. It is a bit like the American states: the winning party then determines the boundaries of the new congressional districts, and so it goes on. This is a similar type of issue, and we have to be very cautious as to how we deal with it.

There is a general sense overall that the operation of the Northern Ireland institution is far too complicated and expensive, and everyone has the general view that it should be reduced. How you do that is very important and can have a significant political outcome, so I caution your Lordships that if we agree to this, it will hand the ability to whoever happens to be in charge when this happens to draw up the numbers to suit themselves, because proportional representation under the single transferable vote is very sensitive to the number of seats in each constituency that are contested.

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On the point on the transfer of powers, I have not seen anything that did not agree with devolving the responsibilities. However, before they are devolved the Government have to work with the Assembly to ensure that legislation brought forward to provide those safeguards ensures the continued impartiality of appointments made to the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the impartiality and independence of the commissioners who regulate those appointments. As we have heard, that provision is in place for other UK Civil Service posts, but it is not currently there as a devolved matter. Therefore before responsibility is devolved, something in legislation should enshrine that impartiality. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to give an assurance today that there will be no further devolution of these issues until that impartiality is enshrined in statute.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Alderdice, for their amendment and the spirit in which it was put forward, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. They rightly emphasise the key issue: the importance of the impartiality of the Civil Service. My noble friend Lord Alderdice referred to the key role of the Civil Service prior to the days of the Good Friday agreement. I was in a small way involved in the early discussions and, from my own experience, was acutely aware of the key role of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland in that regard, the importance of its expertise and, above all, the importance of its impartiality and the trust with which it could therefore be regarded.

It is worth emphasising that Clause 10 does not change the current procedure for the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland. Appointments are currently an excepted matter; the Bill proposes to make them a reserved matter, in common with the functions and procedures of those commissioners. Commissioners will continue to be appointed by the Crown: that is, on the advice of the Secretary of State. The Civil Service Commissioners (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which currently governs the functions of the commissioners, will continue to apply. However, that leaves open the possibility of the future devolution of responsibility for appointment of the commissioners and that of their functions and procedures. Under Section 4 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, that could only happen with the agreement of Parliament and that of the Northern Ireland Assembly voting with cross-community support. However, before any proposal of that sort is put forward we would certainly intend to consult publicly.

We believe that the devolution of responsibility for the commissioners at some point may well be appropriate. Matters have moved a long way since the Good Friday agreement and the initial devolution of responsibility in 1999. For example, we had big changes in 2010, focusing on policing and justice. The commissioners’ independence and the maintenance of an impartial public service are of paramount importance. I thank the noble Lords for their suggested safeguards in this regard. It is clear across the Chamber today that there is agreement on the importance of the impartiality of the Civil Service and agreement that there should be additional safeguards to those currently provided for in legislation. The Government are certainly open to the possibility of new statutory safeguards at the point of devolution and welcome the suggestions made. We hope to hear more when the time comes for the consultation. We have heard what your Lordships have said here but we believe that it is premature to specify preconditions to devolution in the Bill today. The necessary protections should be carefully debated before devolution takes place, as it would be inappropriate to make such significant changes without a thorough consultation.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

I apologise to the House for asking a question as a disinterested observer, although not an uninterested observer. Given that this is Committee stage and that there seems to be general agreement around the Committee on the principle of the amendment—unless I have missed something—why does the Minister not find it possible to say that consideration will be given to this matter before the end of proceedings on the Bill?

[Baroness Randerson]

My response to the noble Lord is that, as I was in the process of saying, we do not disagree with the concept of the safeguards that have been suggested and laid out in the amendment. However, we believe that before we devolve the Civil Service Commissioners’ role, we need to have public consultation so that we have a fuller understanding of what the public expect. It is also worth pointing out that safeguards are already in place in relation to the Civil Service Commissioners in England. Therefore, it is right and appropriate to compare the safeguards proposed in this amendment with those in place for the Civil Service Commissioners in England. In the case of England, they go to several pages; they are very much more detailed. The proposals in the amendment are an indication of the sort of lines one would wish to put in place, but the Government believe that they are nowhere near detailed enough for the final situation. They would need a great deal more fleshing out and should rightly be fleshed out following public consultation.

[Lord Hurd of Westwell (Con)]

I have been following this debate with some care and would like to join, from my own experience as Secretary of State, in welcoming the spirit with which the Northern Ireland Civil Service conducted its affairs at a time when the pressures on civil servants as individuals must have been really quite substantial, coming from several parts of the community. They resisted those pressures, as far as I could tell, with persistence because they believed in the principles which have been endorsed in every speech made here, including that of my noble friend. She is straining at a gnat. We are all familiar, from being in government, with occasions when Ministers are asked to take this line. She is saying, “Yes, the principle is fine,” and so on, “but we need more thought; we need more time, we need more consultation”. We have had quite a substantial consultation in this House this afternoon. The principle is not at stake and is not being questioned. Is this not an opportunity to endorse that principle, which is hugely important for the future of the Province? It seems that the House should take the opportunity offered to it this afternoon to underline its strong endorsement of the principle, rather than be deflected by the arguments for delay.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for that point. However, I do not see this as an argument for delay. This measure must go through the appropriate legal processes and there should be proper public consultation. With all due respect to your Lordships, there is another side to public consultation which involves, for example, asking the opinions of the elected representatives in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

If my understanding of the noble Baroness’s lengthy speech is correct, she is not arguing that there should be delay as regards the principle but is saying that it is absolutely accepted by the Government, and is talking now only about process. Is that correct?

[Baroness Randerson]

Absolutely. The noble Baroness is entirely correct. I had hoped I had made it clear in my opening remarks on this issue that the Government fully support the principle and intend to ensure that safeguards are put in place. However, they believe that there should be public consultation to ensure that those safeguards are as full and detailed as is necessary. The Government also believe that although the intention of the noble Lord’s amendment is entirely satisfactory in many respects, it is deficient in technical terms because the safeguards it specifies are nowhere near detailed enough compared with those for the Civil Service in England.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

The Bill contains the powers to devolve this function of the Civil Service Commissioners. If we are going to put that in the Bill, surely the sensible time to legislate for the safeguards is at the same time as making that provision. If not, why have this provision in the Bill? If the provision is to go ahead, the Government ought to undertake such consultation as they think necessary but introduce a suitable amendment on Report.

[Baroness Randerson]

The Government are listening very carefully to what is said this afternoon, which will inform the content of our consultation paper when it is produced, and we will take close account of what is said more generally by parties and public figures in Northern Ireland. The body that it is proposed to devolve—the Civil Service Commissioners—has, as the noble Lord pointed out, raised our awareness of this issue and is very much involved with the whole process. I should point out that there will be a vote here and in Stormont before the Civil Service Commissioners are devolved. Therefore, noble Lords will be able to discuss once again the details of the safeguards to be put in place as regards the impartiality of the Civil Service. I hope that noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon will contribute fully to the consultation that will take place in due course. However, for the present, I hope that the noble Lord will not press the amendment. I cannot agree to it for the reasons I have outlined—namely, it is technically deficient and does not provide the detail that is required properly to protect the impartiality of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland.

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[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I am fully aware of the noble Lord’s tremendous expertise and am very happy to take into account the point he made. I assure noble Lords that the Government will be taking careful note of everything that has been said here this afternoon.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

Is the Minister willing to confirm from the Dispatch Box that, should the consultation reveal that public sentiment is not going to endorse the principles of Civil Service independence, it will not be the outcome of the consultation that is carried through but rather those principles for Civil Service independence?

[Baroness Randerson]

In public consultation in Northern Ireland, the Government look particularly at a consensus across parties and communities. Therefore, it seems to me highly unlikely that there would be a consensus of opinion—a broad agreement across parties and communities—that there should not be an impartial Civil Service. That would be highly unlikely. In that consultation, we would be looking for the details that we would require for proper safeguarding of the position of civil servants in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am very sorry to ask the Minister one more question. She said that there would be a further vote before devolution took place. Can she say that, if there is agreement that these principles should be applied, the effect of that vote would be to give them statutory force?

[Baroness Randerson]

It is the Government’s intention that we would be moving to devolution with safeguards that would have the kind of statutory enforcement that exists for England. I hope that satisfies the noble Lord.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, when we started out on this amendment, I thought it was a very simple matter that would not be at all controversial. It just shows you that you never can tell around these parts. First, nobody in Northern Ireland has asked for this. The Assembly certainly has not made an approach. To some extent, the issue has come as a bit of a surprise. As I said—I think there is widespread acceptance round the House—the Northern Ireland Civil Service did a good and impartial job. There are a number of former Ministers in their places to confirm that, including the noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench, who ran a number of departments and has many years of experience. I accept that there may well be technical deficiencies in the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and I have tabled. We are very happy for the amendment to be taken away and those technical deficiencies resolved. However, the Minister referred on a number of occasions to consultation. It is not clear to me what the consultation is on—whether it is the principle of devolution or not. To have a consultation on the merit principle would take us back to ground zero. If we do not or cannot accept that, we will pretty well have thrown in the towel.

I suggest that the Minister should look at this before Report because it is an issue to which we may well have to return. Everybody in the Chamber agrees, so it ought to be possible to resolve it. In that spirit, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on such an important topic. My noble friend Lord Alderdice emphasised the fundamental importance of human rights to the successful establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. I shall deal first with the bread-and-butter issues for the clause to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 moves certain functions relating to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission from the excepted to the reserved category. Human rights issues have long been politically sensitive in Northern Ireland and at the time of the 1998 Act it was considered that functions relating to the new commission should remain in the Secretary of State’s hands. In the context of stable devolved institutions and of their development in the future, it may become desirable in due course to devolve responsibilities relating to the NIHRC if the Northern Ireland political parties so wish and if the Secretary of State considers that the Northern Ireland institutions are better placed than the Government to carry out the functions concerned. Clause 11 will mean that the appointment, functions, procedures and funding of the NIHRC will be reserved.

The Government made a commitment, in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill, to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the NIHRC and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed prior to any such devolution taking place. I reiterate that commitment today. We will also ensure that the NIHRC retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland such as national security and terrorism in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.

We understand the concerns that have been expressed both in this Committee and elsewhere that in the course of devolution the independence and freedom of action of the NIHRC should not be compromised. Indeed, not only do we understand those concerns, we fully share them. The independence of the commission is essential to its effectiveness. Its international standing is high and reflects that independence. We are well aware of the importance to the commission itself of the Belgrade and Paris principles, and it is essential that those are abided by. I also ask noble Lords to consider the benefits of devolution. I understand the concerns, but I ask them to consider the benefits. We believe that if it can be accomplished without compromise to the independence and important international standing of the commission, it would be a good thing. It would show that the institutions have matured. After all, in 2010, we accepted that they should take responsibility for sensitive matters such as policing and justice. It is not outrageous, therefore, to suggest that they should be capable of accommodating the independent oversight of institutions, as indeed they already do in various areas such as that of the police ombudsman, with due respect for propriety. So we do not believe that it is unthinkable that, at some point soon, the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland should take on responsibility for the NIHRC, but we are not asking for decisions at this point. All that the Bill does is to make it possible for such decisions to be reached and for effect to be given to them at a later date. If that happens, it will be after full consultation, because these issues need debate in Northern Ireland, of which we have had very little so far. Devolution would require votes in the Assembly by cross-community support and in both Houses here, so we shall certainly come back to these issues before any act of devolution.

I shall respond to some of the points made by noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, referred to the current lack of a chair of the commission. In fact the position will be advertised in the immediate future, so this temporary situation will be rectified in the near future. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the issue of timing. We shall come back to this, because it is the topic of an amendment later in these proceedings.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice asked who had initiated this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made a similar point. The Government have had discussions with various Northern Ireland political parties about possible devolution of the commission. Officials have also discussed the matter with the chair and the chief executive of the commission, and I discussed it with them a couple of weeks ago. I emphasise that the Government believe that it is important above all that there is broad support across the community for devolution before it takes it place.

[Lord Alderdice]

My noble friend may be able to help me and the House with one question of information that I asked, on whether what we are being asked to do is devolution only to the Executive, or whether it would open the possibility of devolution to the Executive or to the Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

I apologise to my noble friend for omitting that. We are not looking at a precise model of devolution at this moment, because that, of course, is to be effected after consultation. However, we are well aware that devolution in Scotland has been to the Parliament and that that is a very successful model of devolution. It is sensible to follow successful models where they exist rather than to apply a different model. However, the details will be subject to further consultation and will become obvious after there has been full consultation.

Clause 11 agreed.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, Clause 12, with Clauses 10 and 11, will have the effect of converting some of the functions relating to certain arm’s-length bodies from excepted to reserved matters. This is a small change but it is right that we support it. It grants more power to the Assembly, allowing it to legislate on these matters, but only with the consent of the Secretary of State. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is absolutely correct to refer to past difficulties. I would not accuse him of being pessimistic about the progress made over the past 16 years. However, there is a failsafe with the involvement of the Secretary of State.

The district electoral areas for council elections in Northern Ireland are in need of reform and rationalisation. It is only right that the Assembly plays some role in such rationalisation. The changes effected by this clause are a recognition and endorsement of the growing maturity of Northern Ireland’s political structures. It reflects faith in the ability of the Stormont Assembly to scrutinise changes properly and to reach cross-community consensus. Concerns have been raised over whether it is possible for the Assembly to oversee such important and sensitive changes. Again, this clause reflects the proper functioning of devolution within the framework of Northern Ireland. The clause recognises the ability of the Assembly to make decisions in the cross-community interest and to hold the Executive to account, while clearly outlining the responsibilities of the Secretary of State and Westminster in aiding and scrutinising change in Northern Ireland.

Any legislation by the Assembly regarding these matters will require the consent of the Secretary of State. Governments in Westminster will therefore be beholden to study extensively whether such changes truly have cross-community support within Northern Ireland. That is a big responsibility. This guarantees that changes to district electoral areas in Northern Ireland cannot be designed for the benefit of two or a handful of political parties, but in full accord with the guiding principle of the 1998 agreement—that of inclusivity. This is not Westminster abdicating responsibility in this area. Instead, it imposes a major responsibility on Westminster Governments to impartially scrutinise legislation from the Assembly.

Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill as the changes it makes are part of the process of normalising politics within Northern Ireland and accord a suitable and appropriate role to Westminster in this. The clause allows the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise local government electoral areas, but appropriately requires the Secretary of State to give assent to any of the Assembly’s legislation. This empowers the Assembly and endorses its ability to make inclusive decisions and scrutinise them. It also retains a vital role for the Secretary of State in the scrutiny process and allows her to make decisions when the Assembly cannot reach cross-community consensus. This short clause strikes an important balance between Westminster and Stormont in this sensitive area of boundaries and should stand part of the Bill. It is another step in a long journey.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. I must address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Alderdice, who have both expressed doubts about this proposal.

Clause 12 moves matters relating to district electoral areas to the reserved category. Noble Lords will be aware that in Northern Ireland local government boundaries are determined by the Northern Ireland Assembly following a report by the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner for Northern Ireland. Local government electoral areas are then determined by Westminster following a report by the District Electoral Areas Commissioner. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, clearly explained that the responsibilities are split at the current time.

It has been the clearly expressed view of successive District Electoral Areas Commissioners that this method of establishing district electoral areas could be improved. Separating out the two processes as I have described leads to increased costs, extends the timetable for boundaries processes by about a year, creates barriers to public understanding and participation, and reduces accountability in the process.

In concluding his December 2013 report, the most recent District Electoral Areas Commissioner, Mr Richard Mackenzie, noted that he had received a number of representations which were outside his remit. This indicated a lack of understanding about the difference between the local government boundaries and district electoral areas processes. He recommended that the processes of setting ward boundaries and electoral areas should be carried out simultaneously and under one authority. This proposal is for a process of potential rationalisation of a cumbersome system. The previous commissioner, Dr Maurice Hayes, also recommended that the reviews be combined. He believed this would lead to higher public participation and a reduced timetable for boundaries decisions.

Moving these matters to the devolved category would allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise the way in which local government electoral areas are set, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. For example, the Northern Ireland Executive might create a single local government boundaries commission responsible for both local government and electoral area boundaries, such as exists in Scotland, Wales and England. However, electoral areas would continue to be set via legislation at Westminster in the event that the Assembly did not reach agreement on a suitable alternative model.

I am grateful to noble Lords for expressing their concerns about this. If the Government decide that it would not appropriate to devolve these matters, it may yet be appropriate for the Assembly to legislate on this issue with consent. I therefore resist the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that Clause 12 should not stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12 agreed.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, once again the Labour Front Bench will come to the rescue of a Minister who is under siege from her own side of the House. I do not usually see myself as a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of a Conservative Government, but there is always hope for sinners repenting.

I will be repeating a familiar refrain. The Civic Forum is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and does not require legislation in this House. The 1990 Act gave responsibility for the creation of the forum to the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and gave them the responsibility for scrutinising the body as well. Provisional arrangements for the Civic Forum were created and approved in this manner. These arrangements also established that there would be a review of the forum after one year of its operation. This was deferred until 2002, but unfortunately the suspension meant that that was not completed.

Since 2007 the Civic Forum has once again been under review, and surely a six-year to seven-year review tells a story of its own. The review was initiated by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. This decision and the review have rightly been approved, scrutinised and debated by the Assembly. The transitional Assembly’s Committee on the Preparation for Government concluded that a review of the mechanism for civic society to promote its views was necessary. Here, sad to say, the opinions expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the role in society of quite a large Assembly raise necessary doubts. It serves some nebulous cause to have a good thing in operation, but on the other hand we have to be professional and sharp about things and not just have bodies just for the sake of them. Anyway, as I said before, this comes under the aegis of the Assembly.

The best way in which to engage with the community in the political process is surely a matter for the Assembly and Northern Ireland politicians to decide upon. There are indications that there is a nationalist/unionist split—I use the terms roughly—about the worth of the forum and whether it should be reinstituted. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, in this era of austerity the costs of an extra, subsidiary body have resulted in some doubts about it as well. Once again, though, I say that the initiative must come from the Assembly. This is devolution in practice.

I regret that I have not been able to support the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, because he has a respectable record on Northern Ireland issues. No one doubts his concern about the Northern Ireland situation or his anxiety to contribute to that process. I respect his record on Northern Ireland and genuinely regret that we have not been able to support his amendment on this occasion.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend Lord Shutt for his amendment and all noble Lords who have contributed to a short but interesting debate. As my noble friend highlighted, the community and voluntary sector plays a vital role in Northern Ireland society, as it does in my home country of Wales and in other parts of the United Kingdom. Alongside the important services it provides to citizens, the community and voluntary sector can be particularly influential in informing debate and helping to shape our society. I believe that is what led to the Civic Forum being established under the Belfast agreement. However, as noble Lords have already said, the Civic Forum has not always commanded the support of the parties in Northern Ireland. In its short existence between 2000 and 2002, the forum met a total of 12 times and produced a number of papers on various issues. There was a wide range of useful papers. For some in Northern Ireland that was seen as beneficial and important in delivering good government but, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has just pointed out, for others it was seen as poor value for money. Others also pointed to it being ineffective.

Whatever the situation, the Civic Forum fell by default when the Assembly was suspended. I believe that the disagreements on how effective it had been are what prompted the First and Deputy First Ministers to initiate a review of the Civic Forum in 2007 which would make recommendations on the way forward. As noble Lords will be aware, that review has never been published but that has not quelled the interest of the parties at Stormont on progress around the Civic Forum and, as my noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out, it was debated last year in the Assembly. What was clear from that debate is that there is no clear consensus to this day on the merits of the Civic Forum or the manner in which it should be constituted in the future.

My noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out that political parties are not always popular these days as organisations to join and that civic involvement is often the favoured choice for members of the public. That is an important point and it points to the continued, or potential, significance of a forum if it were to be re-established. As the noble Lord has pointed out, the Civic Forum is an important component of the Belfast Agreement. His proposed amendment requires that the First and Deputy First Minister launch a formal consultation on the Civic Forum. I expect they may argue that this has already been carried out through the review which they launched in 2007, although the current status of that review is unclear. I say to my noble friend that I reread the Belfast agreement at the weekend and it is quite clear that this is an issue for the executive and the parties at Stormont to agree, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said. Ultimately, the onus is on the parties at Stormont to agree a way forward on the Civic Forum.

If the Civic Forum is to reappear, it would be essential for it to have a clearly delineated role. It would be especially useful to agree that beforehand. That prospect would obviously follow only from the review undertaken by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which has never been published to this day. We are therefore speculating about a potential re-establishment which, although still under active consideration within the Assembly, is in my view some way off—if it is on the horizon at all. This is very much an issue for the parties at Stormont. I thank the noble Lord for raising the issue and hope that, in doing so, he has given the issue some renewed impetus. I hope that the parties in Belfast will take notice of our debate here and the comments of your Lordships this afternoon. In the mean time, I ask my noble friend to consider withdrawing his amendment.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this is an issue that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has returned to in the past and I am sure he will do so again. I do not feel we can support it here today. Clearly, as I recall, the time leading up to the St Andrews agreement was tense in Northern Ireland. I seem to recall various deadlines in reaching agreements so that the Assembly could be re-established after what was then four and a half years of suspension—a situation that nobody wanted to be in at the time. The agreements made there were not just agreements made there and then. There were discussions for several weeks after, before the legislation came to your Lordships’ House. My noble friend Lord Rooker took the legislation through your Lordships’ House at that time. Legislation giving effect to the St Andrews agreement and ongoing discussions was passed by both Houses.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, whom I have known for many years—indeed I followed him into his department, DETI, in Northern Ireland—has never been a great fan of the St Andrews agreement. He has had criticisms of it for some time. However, there is no doubt that that agreement led to the re-establishment of the Assembly and the process we have now. I really feel that it is not appropriate to unpick just some parts. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, made an important point about the ongoing review by the Assembly. However, it would be unfortunate in this legislation to unpick one part of the St Andrews agreement, even though I understand the concerns raised, and it is not something that we will support today.

[Baroness Randerson]

I have listened with great interest to noble Lords. I will keep my comments short because noble Lords who have taken part in the debate have spoken with the advantages of experience and expertise, which come with having been part of the events that we are discussing. They were key actors in the events. Therefore, the role for me here is to lay out the Government’s point of view on the amendment. In this, we agree with the noble Baroness that it is not appropriate to unpick one part of the agreement.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue in Committee in the Commons, and that is the position they intend to maintain today. I recognise the noble Lord’s strongly held views on this matter and I can sympathise with a lot of what he and my noble friend Lord Alderdice have to say. In some ways, it may be a welcome change to revert to the pre-St Andrews method of electing the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland, involving as it did an overt demonstration of cross-community support and—as the noble Lord pointed out—the involvement of the Assembly.

However, the St Andrews agreement, and the subsequent legislation, is the basis on which devolved government was restored in 2007. The arrangements by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister are nominated by designations in the Assembly emerged at St Andrews. This was a change, as the noble Lord said, from the 1998 agreement. There was one change subsequently, with the effect that the largest party in the Assembly nominated the First Minister, but the basic principle comes from St Andrews and I do not think we should now move from it. It would be highly disruptive. The reality is that such changes as those proposed by the noble Lord would require a degree of cross-community support that is still lacking.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Non-Afl)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Would she accept that the Belfast agreement was voted for by the people of Northern Ireland as well as by the people in the Irish Republic? Would she also agree that St Andrews was never voted on; that it was in fact a sleight of hand—a carve-up between the two parties—that would not allow, and preached against, the Assembly having any virtue; that that is what we are left with now; and that the chances of making any progress if she continues with that recipe are virtually nil?

[Baroness Randerson]

I accept of course that the Belfast agreement was voted on on both sides of the border and, as the noble Lord has pointed out, the St Andrews agreement is in a different category. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was a response to an urgent and difficult situation. It was not an agreement dealing with things as one would ideally wish them to be, but an agreement dealing with a very difficult situation. However, I take issue with the noble Lord that there has not been progress. I understand frustration at lack of progress—I think everyone who is involved with and visits Northern Ireland might feel that frustration—but there is progress. When I look back at what the Northern Irish devolved Government was like in about 2000, maybe 1999, they have moved on significantly in that time. With every year that passes, they become more secure. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, this is the longest period of stable government we have seen in a generation.

At the moment, it would reopen old debates, risk destabilising politics in Northern Ireland and divert attention from the important challenges that Northern Ireland faces, if we were to revert to the old method for electing the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I should like to concentrate noble Lords’ minds for a moment on the new challenges that Northern Ireland faces, which are the importance of rebalancing the economy, reducing social division and building a properly shared future. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord if he would be willing to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I thank the Minister but may I say several things because there is an issue of fact that needs clarity here? The current method of electing or identifying the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister does not come from the St Andrews agreement. It was not discussed at St Andrews—let us be very clear about that—but emerged after a deal between Sinn Fein and the Prime Minister of the day. I want to make it absolutely clear that it was not dealt with at St Andrews. Therefore, if we are to talk about unpicking, the unpicking was the removal of the process that was voted on by the people in 1998. However, it was never part of the St Andrews agreement, which was an agreement between two Governments, not between the parties. I want to make that absolutely clear, because if that is the case, it makes a major difference. It emerged as a deal subsequent to St Andrews.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I find myself in great sympathy with the amendment posed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. He and I have discussed this before. I regret that my experience of trying to raise this issue with Ministers was identical to that of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I was leading for us on Home Office issues on the then Crime and Courts Bill, and when this issue first came up I raised it with Ministers on the Bill team. The advice I was given was not to draw attention to it. That is pretty horrendous, because people knew there were concerns and issues to be addressed. I believe that early intervention and early political engagement from both Governments could have addressed those issues.

On a number of occasions, on the Floor of this House and outside, I asked Ministers about it and found myself in the curious position of discussing with Home Office Ministers what was happening and being told it was a matter for the NIO; and when I raised it with the Secretary of State at the briefing on Northern Ireland issues, I was told it was a matter for the Home Office. So the NIO was telling me it was the Home Office and the Home Office was telling me it was the NIO, and I was really worried that this just fell between two stools.

Devolution does not mean disengagement. The British Government had a responsibility when setting up the National Crime Agency—or, as I now call it, the nearly-National Crime Agency, because it is not a national crime agency—to ensure that very early on, when the proposal was first discussed, there were discussions between both Governments and between the political parties. I hold David Ford in very high regard; I regard him as a friend. He is, however, one person in one Government. In the old days, under the Labour Government, there would have been political engagement and political discussion on something as important as this. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, have indicated, the difficulties and the problems are not just for Northern Ireland, but also for those who are genuinely trying to fight crime across the whole of the UK, who are finding themselves hampered because of this gap in provision in Northern Ireland because the Government did not properly engage. Therefore, I support the principle of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey said, but I do not feel that I can support it as a whole because there has to be that engagement first. Merely saying “it will apply” does not resolve the issue.

Will the Minister answer some questions? Can she tell me—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, also referred to this—what has taken place since the legislation received Royal Assent to ensure discussions and engagement in Northern Ireland so that we can move to a position where the National Crime Agency is a genuinely national crime agency? What has happened so far? Also, what will happen next? Can she give the House an assurance that both Secretaries of State—the Home Secretary and the Northern Ireland Secretary—will engage in Northern Ireland to ensure that we can have a National Crime Agency that fulfils the needs of Northern Ireland in the way they should be met?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for this amendment because it has given us the opportunity to discuss a very important issue and it has given me the opportunity to clarify the position of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland. Given the sensitivity of policing in Northern Ireland, and the potential gravity of the impact of this amendment, I have assumed that this is a probing amendment. It was clear at Second Reading that your Lordships consider the role of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland to be of great interest and significance. That has been re-emphasised here this afternoon.

To be clear, the National Crime Agency is operating in Northern Ireland, but as a consequence of the Northern Ireland Executive’s failure to agree to take forward a legislative consent Motion, the Agency’s powers and activities in Northern Ireland to tackle serious and organised crime are restricted. The NCA is providing support and expertise to partners in Northern Ireland and continues to take forward its own investigations within the scope of the limitations on its powers and responsibilities. We, however, remain keen to extend its remit to cover crime falling within devolved responsibilities, if agreement can be reached on this within the Northern Ireland Executive; the Crime and Courts Act provides the necessary order-making powers to achieve this.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I asked a specific question about what arrangements had been put in place in discussions that had taken place prior to the Bill coming forward and what is taking place now. I appreciate that the noble Baroness may not be able to give me that information now but I am happy for her to write to me.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thought I had done my best to answer that question but I will, of course, examine the record tomorrow and if I can provide noble Lords with further information I will be very happy to write and provide further detail.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, like most amendments at this stage in a Bill, this is a probing amendment. However, as I pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill, and therefore noble Lords will seek to insert measures in it as the opportunity is available to do that. I think that is the tradition of the House and I am merely following in that wake.

In regard to this specific amendment, I will have to look at Hansard tomorrow but the Minister said, if I heard her correctly, that we could not, or would not, overrule the Northern Ireland Executive. Let us be very clear—Parliament can overrule any devolved Administration. Devolution means that part of our functions and powers are devolved, but it also means that they can be undevolved. We have a convention to which we normally stick, and I understand that. However, if the Minister is saying that the Government will not introduce any legislation on this matter in Northern Ireland, she is effectively giving Sinn Fein a veto over a crime issue. That is a very disturbing comment. I will check the record tomorrow and, if necessary, return to the issue at a later stage. However, when the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, answered my question on the Crime and Courts Bill, the clear implication of what he was saying was that, if progress was not made, the Government would have to take the national interest into account. That was the inevitable implication of what he said to me. If that is not the case and we are saying that whatever happens we are not going down this road, that in practice is a veto for Sinn Fein, which is not a very good thing to do in the interests of national security.

I hope that the Minister is listening. I wish the discussions that are taking place well. Those holding the discussions have not perhaps been dealt the best hand, and comment could fairly be made on that. However, let us not be under any illusions—the fact that we have an underperformance in this area in Northern Ireland, which is an inevitable outcome of the agency not operating totally and without limits, must mean, ultimately, that crime, like anything else—like nature itself—will fill a vacuum. We have enough people in Northern Ireland with certain skill sets. I need hardly finish the sentence as noble Lords know what I mean, but let us not encourage them. If there is no prospect whatever of our doing anything in this regard, that is not much of an incentive to those involved in the negotiations as we are throwing away their hand.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who supported the original decision, was characteristically frank and honest in indicating that there was heavy opposition to what is being proposed here. When you get that sort of difficult situation, you must resort—maybe that is the wrong word, but you must go back—to basic principles. The basic principle is that there is devolution in Northern Ireland. It is a difficult subject, but the Assembly and the Executive will need to take full, political responsibility for it. I have heard powerful pleas, but I am taken with the honest assessment of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, that there are serious differences and points of view on this. In that event, the Assembly must make its own mistake—if, indeed, this is a mistake. We have devolution, and devolution is the principle that we have to go by.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and I thank my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the amendment. This is a very important matter. When we previously debated it, I was struck by the very high level of expertise, and by the very real concern felt by many noble Lords about the fact that the law on defamation in Northern Ireland has not been reformed. My noble friend Lord Lexden outlined the legal and economic impact of the failure to extend the defamation law to Northern Ireland. He also emphasised legal uncertainty.

Several noble Lords referred to the fact that there are also differences in defamation law in Scotland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pointed out, this is the result of devolution. As a Minister, I can sympathise with the frustrations of noble Lords about devolution. It may be that the slowness of response in Northern Ireland is particularly frustrating on occasions. However, it is essential that we respect the devolution process, and part of that process is that you have different laws in different parts of the country. I am not suggesting that I regard it as a good thing that Northern Ireland has not updated its defamation law. I do not regard it as a good thing at all that Northern Ireland is in this position. However, it is important that we respect devolution and, under the Sewel convention, decisions on whether legislation in transferred areas should apply to Northern Ireland would normally fall to the devolved Administration. This repeats the arguments we had in our previous debate.

That does not mean we do not have a view on the matter. The Government have been active in encouraging the Executive to consider the need for change. As I indicated when we last debated this issue, there was contact at official level prior to the introduction of the then Defamation Bill to establish whether the Northern Ireland Executive wished to seek the approval of the Assembly to a legislative consent Motion. Following completion of the Bill’s passage, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote to the Minister of Finance and Personnel to commend the Act to him and to set out its benefits.

Noble Lords and many other organisations and individuals have highlighted concerns about the possible effects of there being differences in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. My noble friend Lord Black pointed out that this is an area where it is particularly difficult to have different laws in different parts of the country. It is important that the Northern Ireland Executive assess the impact on their economy, and on academia in Northern Ireland, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said. It is also important that they take into account those key issues when deciding whether they wish to extend the legislation to Northern Ireland.

Several noble Lords have referred to Mike Nesbitt’s consultation in terms of its size and the quality of the responses. It is important to remember that 90% of those who responded to the consultation wanted the extension of the law to Northern Ireland. It is therefore important that Mike Nesbitt should be able to develop his legislation and take it forward.

Reference was made to the fact that Simon Hamilton, the Northern Ireland Finance Minister, has asked the Northern Ireland Law Commission to examine the matter and concerns were expressed about the timescale for this. It is something which of course the Government cannot influence, but it is important that we should encourage all those with an interest in this issue in Northern Ireland to pursue it as quickly as possible in order to provide certainty for academia, for the press—as my noble friend Lord Black mentioned—and for all those who are affected by the lack of an update to this legislation. It is clear that active consideration is now being given to it and, in view of the action being taken at Stormont and the devolved status of the issue, the Government cannot support the amendment. I am pleased that we have been able to debate the matter, and I commend the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Lexden, for their continued efforts, but I respectfully ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, I think that for the most part we have probed this issue most usefully, apart from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, who did not seem to want to probe it at all. We should be careful before concluding that this sovereign Parliament would be wrong in taking action, and doing so over the head of the devolved legislature, as I think that that is a principle that we must be very reluctant to accept. Devolution does not mean the abnegation of sovereignty by this Parliament.

In respect of Scotland, the existence of a separate defamation law is explained by its own historic body of separate law. England, Wales and Northern Ireland have hitherto always marched together. I have listened carefully to the Minister’s comments and I am deeply grateful to all those who have spoken to express their grave concerns about this issue both on the part of Parliament here and, more importantly, for the people of Northern Ireland. I will want to consider it further in conjunction with my noble friends who have spoken along similar, if not identical, lines to mine and decide with them what further action might be appropriate. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his amendment and I recognise the importance of cross-government co-operation in addressing certain challenges in which several departments have a role. Indeed, as he has just said, there are several examples here in Westminster such as the Minister of State for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims and the Minister of State for Trade and Investment. It is plausible that we should consider a similar approach in Northern Ireland, and the noble Lord has already highlighted some of the areas in which it could be most effective.

The noble Lord will recall that this issue was debated when he was First Minister in the Assembly in 1999, and a determination was made to appoint the junior Ministers in the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Section 19 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 already provides for what his amendment is intended to achieve. The section permits the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to issue a determination to appoint junior Ministers. It is conceivable that, in that determination, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister could specify that the junior Minister is appointed to lead on a particular issue and across more than one department. That determination could, for example, specify that a junior Minister would work alongside the Ministers for Regional Development, the Environment and Agriculture on issues such as—to take a very topical example—flooding.

Section 19 also provides sufficient safeguards around the appointments of junior Ministers. Subsection (4) requires that any determination on the part of the First and Deputy First Ministers be approved by a vote of the Assembly. As the Government read it, the amendment may open the way to encroachment by junior Ministers on the authority of departmental Ministers. That would be a significant departure from existing structures. As to junior Ministers contributing in other ways to the working of the Executive, the noble Lord’s points will have been heard. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that this is a debate that should now be taken forward in the Assembly. I hope that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

I thank the noble Baroness for her response. Of course I want this to be debated in the Assembly, but I take issue with the substance of her point that what we have currently does what I seek to achieve. The point on which we differ is that you cannot unilaterally give departmental power to a junior Minister. Each departmental Minister has certain functions, and they cannot and should not be usurped. An example is the attempt last year to usurp the functions of the Minister for the Department of the Environment. It would have to be clearly spelt out that no encroachment could be made on the powers of a departmental Minister unless that Minister consented, because the politics of this are very important. You cannot have a Minister from one party come into a department and take part of the departmental Minister’s powers away. That would be very dangerous. So I interpret things slightly differently from the noble Baroness.

All I am trying to do is to find a solution to a problem that I have identified. I accept that the debate should move to Stormont but I wanted to highlight it because a problem exists. It is easily solved. Flooding was an excellent example, but I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, knows that the departmental system at home is very rigorous and substantial in number. Therefore, in trying to resolve some of these cross-cutting issues, we have to look for innovative and creative decisions. That is the rationale for my proposals. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this is a very sensitive and complex issue. Of all the meetings and conversations I had and events that I went to when I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, the ones that had the most profound effect on me were those during the years when I was a Victims Minister from 2003 to 2006. If I look back, I think now that I was singularly unequipped to deal with some of the issues that I faced. People would tell me their life stories, what had happened to them and about the impact on them and their families. They would come from both sides of the community: I recall the anger of the Ballymurphy victims as well as the quiet resilience of those RUC widows left to bring children up on their own. Among all of them, I felt that it would be very hard for me to define who was a victim or who felt they were a victim.

I did some of the work on the definition taken in 2006, although my right honourable friend David Hanson took the order through. It is extraordinarily difficult to try to define who is a victim and who is not. I totally understand the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, having spoken to so many people affected by physical and psychological trauma and damage during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about people’s ongoing needs, there is that difference between individual needs and the collective needs of the community. I was also Health Minister at the same time. Trying to provide an adequate health service for the needs left by those 30 years is extraordinarily difficult. The challenge has not yet been met, in respect of both physical and mental health issues.

People who you talked to were scarred by what had happened to them and damaged by what they had seen and heard; some were damaged by what they had done themselves or by what members of their family had been involved in. An extraordinarily wide range of people were considered to be victims and felt themselves to be victims. That is why, in the 2006 Act, there was that fairly wide near-attempt at a definition. The definition we take is of those who felt that they had suffered as a consequence of those years. I am not defining some as having suffered more than others—clearly some have been through the most terrible and horrendous experiences and others have been able to cope better with what they have experienced. However, in each case, if somebody came forward and felt that their life had been altered and that they had suffered as a result, whether due to life-changing injuries or life-changing mental health issues, we did not feel able then, and I still would not know how, to differentiate any kind of hierarchy.

More than 3,000 people lost their lives and thousands more were injured and affected. These are sensitive and complex issues. Obviously those from Northern Ireland speak with far greater authority and understanding, and with direct experience, of the issues than I ever can, but our approach has been consistent and ongoing in support of a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past. We stand by that and I hope that the Assembly has also asked for the British Government to be involved in that process. It would be a major step forward if the Government were to take a lead. There needs to be an inclusive and comprehensive process in Northern Ireland, covering the two areas that the noble Lord spoke about: one dealing with the physical needs and the other trying to help a community that is still scarred by what happened.

I remember many years ago, while Nelson Mandela was in prison, talking to a white South African involved in the ANC who had come over to talk to people. He commented on some people—white South Africans—who were hedging their bets, as I think somebody in the audience he was speaking to put it. Somebody said, “They’re just trying to save their skins”. He replied, “We’re all trying to save our skins”. There is a very similar situation in this case, with a whole community whose members are all trying to heal together. We have to have the British Government at the heart of that, with the Irish Government. There is a legacy of the Troubles that is difficult to address but, collectively, it can be done. It is not easy—there is certainly no consensus to start with and there are points at which it will be very difficult to gain consensus along the way, but it may be gained on very small areas.

I fully understand why the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has brought this amendment forward, but one of the difficulties with it is that definition. One of the things we looked at in 2006 was the issue of children whose family had perhaps been involved in terrorist activities and who were orphaned as a result or whose lives were changed. They were victims and, as children, were innocent. Once you get into definitions, it does become more complex. I remember a particular case I dealt with where a mother wanted her son, who had been accused of terrorist activities and had been shot by the Army, to be vindicated. That has now been done and it was totally accepted that her son was never in the wrong but had we taken the definition at that time, he would have been labelled a terrorist. Things have changed over the years.

We cannot support the amendment but we understand what is behind it. What I hope the Minister takes away from this debate is that the British Government need to be at the heart of a process. I know that the Assembly has called for that process and for talks on how we deal with the past to start. A wide range of people need to play their part in letting Northern Ireland deal with the past and trying to heal some of it.

[Baroness Randerson]

I think that noble Lords might agree with me when I say that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has saved the most complex and intractable issue until last. In a sense, all the other issues we have discussed here today flow from the problems associated with the issue of victims.

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relates to the definition of a victim in the context of the role of the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors. Many noble Lords here today will have far more direct knowledge than I about the impact of the conflict in Northern Ireland on people’s lives over more than three decades. I recognise that those of us who do not have personal experience of the conflict must approach this debate with considerable humility and great care. I recognise the concerns that the noble Lord is making clear here today. Like the noble Baroness, I have met people in Northern Ireland who have explained to me the nature of the impact that the Troubles have had on their lives and the result of the conflict in terms of the damage that it has done to them. These are people who still suffer today.

Noble Lords will be aware of the recent talks chaired by Dr Richard Haass, where the right approach to dealing with Northern Ireland’s past was debated in detail. A key element of the approach taken during those talks was that victims and survivors should be central to any efforts to deal with the past. The Government commend the progress made by the parties in Northern Ireland in dealing with these issues during the Haass talks and I hope that progress will continue to be made in the future. As I said earlier in this debate, there are still meetings going on between the party leaders, and the Government remain hopeful that progress will be made.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has made a moving argument. However, the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors is the responsibility of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly. The Government are particularly anxious not to cut across the initiatives in the Haass talks. To address the issue here, in this Bill, might have a negative impact on the ability of the parties in Northern Ireland to develop an inclusive process of dealing with the past. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that the all-party talks, building on progress made by Dr Haass, still represent the best chance of making progress on these matters. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made about the differences between the recognition of the individual and the provision of services that can be made available to that person as a victim. However, there is a growing recognition that that has been an issue. My party leader, Mike Nesbitt, proposed at the end of last year a new mental health initiative where we could perhaps teach the rest of the world the expertise that we have developed in treating people because, sadly, we will all be facing the downstream consequences of the trauma caused by Iraq and Afghanistan. That will be coming before us and I do not think that, as a country, we have any grasp as yet of the scale of what people will face. Even now, 30 or 40 years after they were involved in the conflict, people, including those in the security forces, are still presenting with trauma. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is a professional in this area and knows perfectly well what I mean.