Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill Debate
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Baroness Randerson
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Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Baroness Randerson Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden, for tabling this amendment. As I have acknowledged previously, they have done us a service in raising the profile of this important issue and they are to be strongly commended for that. I think that we have agreement at the very least on one thing across the Chamber this afternoon: that is, an Opposition is an important part of democracy. The Government agree that the creation of an Opposition would be a welcome step on the road to rigorous scrutiny of the Northern Ireland Executive and an important part of the democratic development of Northern Ireland.
This afternoon several noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for example—emphasised the development of the Assembly as a democratic institution and the importance of that development. I myself, from my own experience as a Member of the Welsh Assembly, recall that the original Welsh Assembly as set up did not have a strong Opposition embedded within it. It did not have the institutions of an Opposition, and the positions to which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, refers in his amendment, were not necessarily there for the Opposition to take up.
As the Opposition grew within the Welsh Assembly, one could see—day by day and month by month—the effectiveness of scrutiny growing within the Assembly. To my mind, therefore, there is no argument about the importance and desirability of an Opposition. The key thing we have here is a discussion as to whether that should be done, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, suggested, through the internal standing-order processes of the Assembly—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, suggested the same approach—or whether it should be something that has safeguards imposed from outside. There we have the issue of the development of Standing Orders within an organisation.
The personal experience I just referred to includes being chair of the Welsh Assembly’s Standing Orders Committee, which I always regard as one of the more challenging roles that I have taken in politics. Clearly, as the organisation develops, the Standing Orders become more sophisticated and more difficult to overturn. If the approach within the Northern Ireland Assembly is taken via Standing Orders, that of course does not necessarily mean that they are likely to be overturned—although I recognise entirely the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, of the challenge last year to the power of the Department of the Environment, and the point that there are unsettled moments in the development of Northern Irish democracy.
Therefore, as I set out in Committee and as has been referred to this afternoon, the Government previously consulted on the issue of an Opposition in the Assembly and concluded that there was a lack of broad support between the parties in the Assembly for changes to the current legislative framework.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
The Northern Ireland Assembly is losing credibility across Northern Ireland and is passing very little legislation. I am very worried that the turnout at the next election will be poor. The Minister says—and the spokesman for the Opposition said the same—that the initiative must come from the Northern Ireland Assembly itself, but if all five main political parties are now in the Government, what incentive is there for any of those parties to resign from the Government and become the Opposition?
Baroness Randerson
The noble Lord makes a very important point. However, because there may not immediately be an obvious incentive to do so, that does not necessarily mean that in other circumstances one or more of those parties might not find it appropriate to go into opposition. In the history of party politics in general, from time to time a party believes that the time has come to renew itself, and the party also might believe that the time has come for it to take a stronger role of scrutiny. It is important that we do not regard the current situation in Northern Ireland in terms of the balance of political parties as one that will necessarily exist in decades to come. There have been remarkable changes in Northern Ireland among the political parties since the establishment of devolution, so we should not think that the current situation will necessarily always continue as it is.
I return to the point I was making. Noble Lords will be aware that the Assembly can in effect facilitate an Opposition at present through its Standing Orders, as has been referred to here this afternoon. However, as I said earlier, I recognise the concerns that those Standing Orders could be overturned at the behest of the larger parties in the Assembly. In response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the Government understand the desirability of sufficient protection being afforded to an Opposition against such a threat if it is to be truly effective in holding the Executive to account. It is important that the Opposition are enabled to do their work without feeling that their position is under threat. However, of course it is also possible to protect an Opposition internally, through Standing Orders.
However, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, highlighted in Committee and again this afternoon, this is about the Assembly’s internal procedures. I disagree with the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden. It would not be appropriate for the Secretary of State to have authority over the Assembly’s internal affairs, as the amendment suggests. In the view of this Government, it is not appropriate for the Secretary of State to intervene internally in the processes of the Assembly. We also believe that it would be inappropriate to impose a requirement for the Assembly to make particular provision in this field. Indeed, we ought to show great circumspection, given that there has been no opportunity for consultation on these matters with the Northern Ireland Assembly in recent months. However, we will reflect further on the issue in the light of today’s debate. I make no promises of particular action, but we commit to considering whether there is more we can do within the constraints of the Government’s view that we should not intervene directly within the Assembly. Above all, I hope that the parties in Belfast are listening and will think carefully about amending Assembly arrangements in the light of what has been said today. With that in mind, I hope that the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Perhaps I might add a word about another issue, since otherwise we will not have an opportunity to consider it today. In Committee, concerns were expressed about the current provision in Clause 6 to make the reduction in the size of the Assembly a reserved matter. I would like to respond in more detail to some of the concerns debated in Committee. The current provision would enable the Assembly to legislate, with the Secretary of State’s consent, to reduce the number of Members returned to it for each Westminster constituency. The noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Empey and Lord Bew, expressed reservations about the current provision in that it did not provide sufficient protection, notably for smaller parties in the Assembly. In their view, the Secretary of State’s ability to withhold consent from such an arrangement was not a sufficient safeguard.
The Government recognise those concerns. There is a significant body of opinion that favours some reduction in the Assembly’s size, but it is certainly not our intention that it should become a radically smaller institution. When it was established, it was the intention that it should be a widely inclusive body, and that remains an essential element of the Northern Ireland settlement. Accordingly, we propose to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading that would limit any reduction in the Assembly’s size to five Members per constituency. The amendment would make clear that such a reduction would require cross-community support in the Assembly.
We will, of course, return to the detail of this amendment at Third Reading, but I hope that I have given a clear indication of the Government’s intentions and reassured noble Lords. Following my comments on this amendment and in the light of my reassurance that we will consider further the issue of our position in the Assembly, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, I mean no disrespect to the shadow spokesman for the Opposition in speaking immediately after her. I hesitated to speak in the debate because I had played no part whatever in the proceedings so far, but I detected some mild anxiety in the exchanges between the government Front Bench and the advisers behind me. Therefore, I reckoned that uttering for a moment might provide enough time for any matters of that sort to be resolved with total confidence.
Like many in your Lordships’ House, I was alerted to this problem by the original letter expressing concern about the difference between Northern Ireland and the rest of the kingdom at the moment in these regards. For reasons that are in no remote sense the responsibility or fault of the Minister, I was unable to attend any of the briefing meetings that she very generously provided for people interested in this Bill. It is possible, because I have not taken any part, that I have not received correspondence that may have come to other noble Lords.
Having listened to the debate this afternoon and read the debate that occurred in Committee, I have a sense of unease. I do not have a sense of confidence that all is well. We are rather late in the proceedings of this Bill to be dealing with these sorts of concerns. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to give a significantly clearer position of exactly where we are and why at this particular moment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment. I know from Committee, and this afternoon, that this issue gives rise to considerable debate, in which of course there is very wide interest. I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing the matter back on Report.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, criticised the timing of my letter. My letter was dependent on knowing on which aspects I had not been able to satisfy noble Lords following the debate in Committee. There were a number of other issues of debate that have not come back to us because clearly the debate produced a satisfactory response to what I had said. I was therefore picking up those issues which had been raised in amendments by noble Lords or which had been raised with me directly in that noble Lords had told me that they intended to table amendments on those issues. Therefore, having got a picture of what noble Lords were interested in and concerned about, I wrote in the hope that, by giving some advance notice, I would enable your Lordships to prepare your points for debate with an eye to what I was planning.
Returning to the points made this afternoon, noble Lords will be aware that this amendment is the same amendment that the noble Lord tabled in Committee. As I outlined then, while we have much sympathy with the concerns that underlie it, to which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, has just referred, the Government cannot accept it; first, on the basis that it is technically problematic; and, secondly, because it will pre-empt a public consultation on the future devolution of the Civil Service Commissioners.
It is worth emphasising again that Clause 10 is concerned only with the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners and not the wider Civil Service. There have been a number of references today, as there were in the previous debate in Committee, to the issue of the Civil Service as a whole. That is, however, a devolved issue, and therefore it is important that we bear in mind that we are talking only about the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners.
Clause 10 does not change the current procedure for the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland. Appointments are currently an excepted matter, and the Bill proposes to make them a reserved matter, as is currently the case with the commissioners’ functions and procedures. But the Bill opens the possibility of responsibility for the appointment of the commissioners and their functions and procedures to be devolved at a later stage.
I recognise that noble Lords have concerns that the principle of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service should be made on merit and through open and fair competition, and that this should be protected, as is the case with the Home Civil Service here. In Committee I made it clear that the Government are certainly open to the possibility of new statutory safeguards being put in place in the context of devolution. But as I indicated previously, attempting to write them in now would pre-empt a consultation on the future devolution of the commissioners, not least in Northern Ireland itself.
In any event, we do not have the time to put in place provision on the complex issues involved during the remaining stages of this Bill. Some of these matters, as I have said, are anyway a devolved responsibility on which we should not legislate without the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is unnecessary to make such provision at present because the House, along with another place, would have the final say over whether devolution should take place when an order to that effect was proposed.
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about the opportunities for the House to vote on a statutory instrument prior to devolution and that it would be a yes or no vote, the process for this is that the Secretary of State would bring an Order in Council to the House and the House can decide whether there are sufficient safeguards in place. If there are not, presumably the House would vote against that order.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I am grateful to the noble Baroness but I am afraid that she is not assuaging my concerns. In Committee, she gave me a precise undertaking. Today she has said that the Government were open to the idea of introducing the same kind of statutory safeguards for the Northern Ireland Civil Service as exist in the rest of the United Kingdom. In Committee she went much further than that and said that we would be moving to devolution with safeguards that would have the kind of statutory enforcement that exist for England. Is that going to happen before devolution or not?
Baroness Randerson
I hope to come to that in the latter part of my response. I was attempting to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, on the specific issue of the process. Prior to the intervention I was saying that the House would have the final say on whether devolution should take place when an order to that effect was proposed. However, in responding to the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I should make it clear again that the Government are committed to protecting the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners and that we fully understand the concerns expressed about the future independence of the Northern Ireland Civil Service.
We recognise the significant and important role played by the Civil Service in Northern Ireland and, in the light of the concerns expressed, the Government propose to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading which would require the Secretary of State to lay a report before both Houses on the independence of the Northern Ireland Civil Service prior to bringing a devolution order. In her report the Secretary of State will be required to set out her view of the effect of devolution on the principle that persons should be selected for appointment to the Northern Ireland Civil Service on merit and on the basis of fair and open competition. That approach flags up the importance your Lordships attach to the question. We would wish the House to be reminded of that at a later date when and if a devolution order is brought forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester, asked whether discrimination is possible at this point in time in the Civil Service. There are extensive safeguards in Northern Ireland law and in the 1998 Act against discrimination in employment and, more generally, against discrimination by public authorities. I am sure that on this issue it would be more significant if I responded to the noble Lord in detail, possibly by letter, which I could place in the Library.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for her reassurance. I want to make it clear that my understanding, as a matter of law, is that if the commission were not to recruit on merit, on the basis of fair and open competition, that would already be unlawful both by statute and common law. The House may need that reassurance in considering whether the proposal now being made, for a report in the future, would be sufficient safeguard against abuse. If the Minister finds it more convenient to confirm that in writing, I would be grateful for that.
Baroness Randerson
As an issue of principle, my understanding is that that is the situation. However, in order that noble Lords might understand it in more detail, I will ensure that a letter is sent to my noble friend and a copy placed in the Library in order that we can make the current situation clear. As I listened to this debate and read the Hansard report of our previous one, it became clear that this is a complex issue in which we are, in practice, moving between the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners on a fair, equal and open basis and the standards by which we would expect the Civil Service in Northern Ireland to operate. Some of these issues are devolved but it is important to be clear about which safeguards are already in place, at which level, and which points are devolved. I give way to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is trying to be very clear and I wish I could be equally clear at this point. The noble Baroness used two phrases that give me concern. At some points she talked about the independence of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service Commission but in her letter, and at other times, she referred to the independence and impartiality of appointments to the Northern Ireland Civil Service for which the commission is, at some levels, responsible. That is where there is some confusion.
We are just a few days away from Third Reading and I would be very concerned if an amendment were tabled quite late in the day and the only discussion we had was on the Floor of your Lordships’ House. Would it be possible for the Minister, before tabling the government amendment at Third Reading, to discuss it with noble Lords who have raised concerns to ensure that they are content with its wording and feel that it does what they are asking for it to do? The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is quite right. We are very late in the day to be at this stage with the matter not resolved. It would be very helpful if the Minister could agree to circulate the amendment and discuss it with noble Lords prior Third Reading.
Baroness Randerson
One our problems is that the Bill refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners but the amendment goes beyond that because, as has been pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill and things are put into it which add to its scope. In attempting to respond to the debate, we have all been discussing the qualities of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—its free and open appointment and independence. We have therefore been ranging well beyond the point in the Bill. I am absolutely happy to organise a meeting with noble Lords who are concerned about this issue. It is essential to have a full discussion of any proposed amendment and ensure, as far as possible, that noble Lords are satisfied with the direction of the amendment.
As the noble Baroness has pointed out, there is an issue with timing. We have Third Reading next week so it is essential that we move on under a realistic timetable. The Government are absolutely committed to having public consultation before making fundamental changes to the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners. We are not considering devolution of anything without wide public consultation and the agreement of the Assembly. We have a relatively limited period of time in which to produce an amendment that works within those parameters.
Lord Alderdice
I hesitate to intervene, but will my noble friend clarify something else? She talked about the importance of public consultation. I do not ask her to clarify this now, but perhaps she could do so in writing before the Bill’s next stage. The noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench said that culturally and socially there is a difference in the roles of the heads of the Civil Service departments in Northern Ireland. It is my recollection that there is a legal and constitutional difference from this part of the world as well. I recollect that the heads of Northern Ireland government departments are the civil servants, not the Ministers, which is a different position from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not certain that all noble Lords are aware of the fact that it is a quite different position. Therefore, sensitivities that some of us have on these matters are all the more acute. I see my noble friend Lord Trimble nodding his head, and that ought to be confirmation sufficient for me, but I ask the Minister to confirm between now and the next stage precisely what is the position and, in particular, the status of heads of department as civil servants.
Baroness Randerson
My noble friend is correct in his general point, which is that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland has a different status from that in the rest of the country. The situation changed in 2010, when additional safeguards were introduced for the rest of the country.
I suggest that the best way in which I can deal with the detailed approach for which my noble friend is asking is to add it to the letter that I originally said that I would write to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, because it is very much in the same field and at the same level of detail. Then we can have the precise legal and historical background to the different situation that exists for the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. My noble friend makes an important point that we are looking historically at a different situation.
I draw your Lordships’ attention to my proposal of an amendment that the Secretary of State should bring forward a report. I think that our approach flags up the importance that your Lordships clearly attach to this very important question. Requiring a report will feed back into the consultation process that we have committed to undertake on the question of whether the responsibility should be devolved and in which circumstances. I hope that your Lordships will agree that such an amendment goes much further than the current clause. We will of course return to the detail of these amendments. It is obvious that we are going to have ongoing discussion on this and we will return to it at Third Reading. I hope that this will provide the noble Lord with the necessary assurances and that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I understand the concerns that have led the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to table this amendment. The discussion of human rights has played an important part in the establishment of devolved structures within Northern Ireland. Today the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission continues to play a key role in maintaining these institutions. Throughout the Assembly’s legislative process, the Human Rights Commission can intervene at any point to prevent the governing parties from creating legislation that does not conform to proper international standards of human rights. Given the importance of the commission to the legislative process, there is an understandable need to preserve its independence and impartiality.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned that there seems to be an air of lack of faith in the Assembly in Northern Ireland. There is certainly anecdotal evidence in conversations to justify that complaint, or at least to make a valid one. I urge all representatives from Northern Ireland and noble Lords and noble Baronesses here to use what influence they can to try to move things along. If the public start to lose faith in the Assembly, we are all in trouble, so we should all be trying to inspire faith in it. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, was absolutely right to refer to that.
In Northern Ireland, the devolution of the relevant power to the Assembly would appear to offer a firm guarantee of the commission’s continued independence. While recognising the valid intent of the amendment, I think it would be a mistake to accept it at this time. As acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, a very valuable service is being performed by having this discussion.
The actual powers concerning the Human Rights Commission have not yet been devolved. Prior to the actual devolution, the Government have committed to carrying out extensive consultation and encouraging debate within Northern Ireland. It will not be until after this that the actual form that the devolution of these powers will take will be decided. Only then will it potentially be necessary to consider an amendment such as this.
Everyone agrees about the fundamental importance of human rights to the exercise of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It is also agreed that this is ensured through the independence of the Human Rights Commission and the impartial nature of its work. The preservation of this impartiality will be foremost in discussion when we come to actually devolve these powers. However, since the precise model for the devolution of these powers has not yet been agreed—and it will only be agreed after consultation within Northern Ireland, which will hopefully include a large say for the public—I feel that at this time the amendment has been quite rightly described as a probing amendment and the Official Opposition cannot support it.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a strong case that the devolution of these responsibilities should be to the Assembly, as is the case in Scotland. The point was made in Committee that the impartiality and independence of the commission is crucial and must be both retained and maintained. Therefore, we welcome the Government’s commitment to ensure that proper consultation and debate on this takes place in Northern Ireland before a vote is taken to devolve these responsibilities. I conclude by thanking once again the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for the service that he has provided the House.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I hear strong echoes in this debate of the concerns raised in the previous debate. The Government have a similar potential solution to assuage the concerns of noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this amendment and I understand his concerns in relation to the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission should it be devolved in future. I make that point to my noble friend Lord Lester: it is by no means a foregone conclusion that the Human Rights Commission will be devolved in the future. It will be subject, of course, to consultation and discussion.
Indeed, let me say at once that we share the concerns that several noble Lords have expressed today and we are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. For that reason we will propose amendments at Third Reading that will ensure that they are addressed, albeit not quite in the way suggested in my noble friend’s amendment. It is worth reminding the House that Clause 11 of the Bill moves certain functions relating to the commission from the excepted to the reserved category.
The Government made a commitment in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the commission and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed, prior to any devolution taking place. I want to reiterate that commitment today. The concerns expressed in the debates here will obviously inform that consultation. We will also ensure that the commission retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland—such as national security and terrorism—in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.
My noble friend raised the issue of the Belgrade and Paris principles. The Government are fully aware of the huge significance of those principles and we are absolutely committed to the idea that they are fundamental to the future independence of the Human Rights Commission. Nothing we do in future will challenge that. We know the importance that the commission attaches to the high regard in which it is held internationally.
At this stage we are not considering in detail the model for how eventual devolution will look. The Bill would simply move certain policy areas from the excepted to the reserved field so that devolution could take place by order later. That would require a vote in the Assembly to accept the new powers. Ultimately it would be for the devolved institutions to determine the structures and lines of accountability they wanted in operation. However, it seems obvious that if there are already models in operation which seem to work well they could provide a suitable starting point when these issues are considered in detail. In Scotland, for example, the devolution is to the Scottish Parliament, which has proved to be a very successful model.
As I said, the model of devolution needs to be determined in the light of the public consultation. There are many detailed questions to be addressed about the devolved arrangements, if it is eventually decided to devolve. We obviously have to take the views of the Human Rights Commission itself into account, those of others in the community, those of the receiving institutions, the Assembly and the Executive. Your Lordships will have an opportunity to debate those detailed arrangements at a later stage. Any proposal to devolve requires a vote here, as well as in another place and in the Assembly. However, we believe that it would be right to put on record now the view of the House that those questions require close scrutiny.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, expressed the view several times during the debate today and previously that the Government are deliberately pushing things off the desk. I say to him and to others who go along with his viewpoint that there is another way of looking at this. The Government see this as part of building a broader base for devolution in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, it is part of moving things on in Northern Ireland and creating a more normal political model. It is hoped that by broadening the base of devolution in Northern Ireland it will be made firmer and stronger as a result. However, to noble Lords who expressed concerns about this, I acknowledge that the Government are very sensitive to the issues of timing and very much aware that the progress of devolution in Northern Ireland is not always as trouble-free and speedy as we would wish to see.
In recognition of the concerns expressed about that issue, the Government intend to put forward an amendment at Third Reading which makes clear that the future independence of the commission is something that needs to be guaranteed at the point of eventual devolution. Accordingly, the amendment will propose a requirement on the Secretary of State to lay a report in both Houses prior to bringing forward a devolution order. The Secretary of State would be required to set out in her report the effect of that devolution order on the commission’s independence.
We will of course return to this at Third Reading, but I hope that my noble friend is reassured that the Government take the matter seriously, and that he will be willing, as he has indicated, to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I know that the concerns expressed so eloquently by my noble friends Lord Lester and Lord Lexden are shared widely across the House. That has been obvious from the debate today. There can be no doubt, either in Westminster or in Stormont, about the strength of concern felt by many noble Lords about the failure so far to reform the law on defamation.
Many organisations and individuals have also highlighted concerns about the possible effects of there being differences in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the problems for the judiciary in trying to deal with an out-of-date law and the noble Lord, Lord Black, and other noble Lords referred to the impact on the media. As we have heard, there has been an active campaign in Northern Ireland involving civil society organisations, academics, the media and some political parties. It is not quite true, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, implied, that nothing has happened since the Defamation Act was passed here. Things have moved on in Northern Ireland. There have been responses; they just have not been very fast or gone very far. It is not true to say that nothing has happened, because the campaign has certainly had an impact. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, outlined that there is action now in the Assembly, both by Mike Nesbitt and with reference to the Law Commission. Some scepticism has been expressed about whether this will lead to a result or whether it is just a delaying tactic by the Executive. I will not speculate on that, but I put it to noble Lords that the Law Commission is a well-respected, expert institution and if there were any intention to use the commission to avoid the issue, it seems to me that that would be likely to backfire. We have also heard about the consultation and the Private Member’s Bill brought forward by the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mike Nesbitt. Undoubtedly his consultation produced some valuable responses and information. These are real changes and developments that have happened in Northern Ireland since the Defamation Act was passed here.
As I have said on previous occasions, the Government believe that the Defamation Act makes some very important improvements to the law that was previously in place. It introduces a tougher serious harm test to discourage trivial claims and a single publication rule so that a publisher cannot be repeatedly sued about the same material. It addresses libel tourism and prevents claims being brought in the English courts where the parties have little connection to this country. It provides simpler and clearer defences to those accused of defamation—for example, the creation of new statutory defences of honest opinion and truth and a new statutory defence for publications on matters of public interest. The Act also takes specific action to help encourage robust scientific and academic debate. It is important that those improvements and advantages are emphasised time and again as that is the way in which the Executive in Northern Ireland will be encouraged to develop their own legislation on this and to adopt the Defamation Act for themselves.
The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, asked some specific questions. It seems a very long time ago now but it is important that I respond to them. In response to his first question on whether the Government will secure a public explanation from the Executive of their inaction, I repeat that this is a devolved issue and it is important that we respect that devolution. However, that does not mean that the UK Government have not asked the question and would not appreciate an explanation.
Lord Lexden
Assuming that the question has been asked, should the House draw the inference and the conclusion that no answer has been given to the Government—no answer to the people of Northern Ireland, no answer to those in this House who have raised the question, and no answer to the Government either?
Baroness Randerson
It has been said several times this afternoon—more times than I can count—that the Northern Ireland Executive have not given any explanation. Of course, the most important group to which the explanation is owed is the people of Northern Ireland.
The second question asked by the noble Lord was whether we would establish what the Executive intend to do. I repeat that it is for the Assembly and not the Government to hold the Executive to account, and it is for the Assembly to seek an explanation. That goes along with my comment that the people of Northern Ireland are those to whom the Executive should be explaining themselves in the first instance.
In response to the third question put by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, we have of course set out to the Executive what we see as the benefits of the Act and we will continue to discuss the issue. When my noble friend Lord McNally was Minister for Justice, he wrote to the Executive commending the Act, and I am absolutely sure that the Executive will in due course become aware of our debate this afternoon.
Therefore, the Government have been active in encouraging the Executive to consider the need for change. Prior to the introduction of the Defamation Bill before Parliament, there was contact at official level to establish whether the Executive wished to seek the approval of the Assembly to a legislative consent Motion. Following completion of the Bill’s passage, as I said, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote commending it to the Executive.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My noble friend has emphasised the importance of the Law Commission in Northern Ireland. Can she correct my misunderstanding, if that is what it is? My understanding is that the Northern Ireland Law Commission consists of a part-time commissioner and a chief executive, and that is it. Am I wrong about that?
Baroness Randerson
I am not aware of the exact size of the Law Commission. However, I am aware that the Law Commission’s reputation is not affected by any issue regarding its size, in that it is clearly a body with a good reputation. If the commission is as small as my noble friend indicates, that might explain why it will take it some time to consider this issue. However, I am not able to give a precise answer to his question.
I wish to remind noble Lords that the civil law of defamation is of course a devolved matter, and under the Sewel convention decisions on whether legislation in transferred areas should apply to Northern Ireland usually fall to the devolved Administration. A number of noble Lords have set out why they believe the Government should consider breaching the Sewel convention. I urge them to consider the wider ramifications of doing so for our relations with all the devolved legislatures in the United Kingdom. I welcome the words of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Carswell and Lord Hope, in this regard. It is important that we respect devolution. It is not just in respect of Scotland that we should be wary of breaching the Sewel convention; I believe that it would be destabilising in Northern Ireland if we were to pick and choose which bits of devolution we decided to observe. My noble friend Lord Lester has eloquently explained the weaknesses of our non-federal system of devolution, but I urge noble Lords who are of the mind that we should breach the Sewel convention to look at this from the viewpoint of the nations of the UK. We should be considering what it looks like from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if we pick and choose which aspects of devolution we observe.
Lord Kilclooney
Very briefly, I agree with everything that the noble Baroness has said about caution in dealing with the devolved Assembly. She has mentioned the Deputy First Minister, but what has been ignored in this debate is that he is in fact a Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister. Sinn Fein is the second largest party in the Assembly and has absolutely no time or respect for the House of Lords. To think that it is paying any attention to what is being said in this House would be misleading.
Baroness Randerson
However, as was pointed out earlier this afternoon, Sinn Fein has a considerable interest in promoting free speech in Northern Ireland. I believe that my noble friend Lord Lester referred to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in that regard, as the two of them had worked together in relation to the broadcasting of Sinn Fein. It has an interest in the issue, but that probably goes beyond our debate.
I welcome the continued efforts made by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Lexden, on this issue. I am pleased that we have been able to continue our debate on this matter but regret to say that the Government are unable to support the amendment. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.
Lord Lexden
My Lords, this has been a tremendous debate and I am deeply grateful to all those who have taken part in it with such vigour and authority. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that it is purely a matter of coincidence that I so readily sit under the arms of the House of Orange. I must say at once that the views of certain members, particularly of the monarch of the House of Orange in the 17th century, played no part whatever in the views that I have formed.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, in his particularly powerful speech spoke for us all when he urged the Executive to adopt the Defamation Act, and to do it quickly. Our debate was also enriched by his cautionary words, and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on the Sewel convention. Clearly that needs to be borne carefully in mind. As my great friend, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, the Government must be mindful of their wider obligations. That is the note on which we need to end.
My final question is this: if the Northern Ireland Executive fail to pursue this matter properly, what further action will the Government take? That is the note on which we should end. I have constituted myself into a kind of watching brief on this matter and I shall seek opportunities, by one means or another, to raise this fundamentally important issue from time to time in the House. I hope that we shall be able to note progress: it is extremely important that we keep a watching brief on it. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this debate has been interesting, as was the one in Committee, although that was without the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble; I say his name carefully. We have benefited enormously from the experience of noble Lords here this evening: this is the value of debates in your Lordships’ House on this issue.
Clearly, we all want to ensure that governance in Northern Ireland is based on a strong cross-community partnership. I readily accept that there is no system for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers that we all would consider perfect. Indeed, the current system may not be perfect. Let us not forget where Northern Ireland had been during the four and a half years leading up to 2006. It was a major step forward to have the institutions up and running again after being suspended for that time. That was the purpose of the St Andrews agreement, the ongoing discussions which came from it and the legislation subsequently passed by your Lordships’ House and the other place. For three and a half of those four and a half years I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, and it was a difficult, tense time, as noble Lords here tonight will know better than I. When I flew out to Belfast on my first day, I was told I should expect to be a Minister for about six months. When I left three and a half years later, the Assembly was still not restored. It was a very serious and difficult time.
Since the St Andrews agreement changed the arrangements, we have had the longest period of stable government in Northern Ireland in a generation. That is not to be underestimated or dismissed lightly. Many positives proceeded from that agreement. I understand why this amendment has been brought forward and the reasons for it, but it takes apart one part of the agreement that was agreed in your Lordships’ House and the other place through legislation. We have heard very eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, why the popular 1998 agreement for electing First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers required the direct involvement of the Assembly. He and others welcomed that very clear demonstration of cross-community support. If we were to return to the pre-St Andrews system at this stage, it would have to be done by cross- community consensus and agreement, and I really do not think that we have achieved that at present. I understand the reason for tabling the amendment, but at the moment we do not have the agreement and cross-community support necessary to achieve it. We have to understand the reasons why that came about.
In this debate and others that we have had today, wider issues have been raised by several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Trimble, about the disengagement of local people in Northern Ireland. We have talked about it in terms of the Assembly, but there is also the wider political context. That is not peculiar to Northern Ireland, but I understand the concerns about it relating to Northern Ireland. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to it as a destabilising trend. All sides of your Lordships’ House want confidence in the system and the Assembly. We want the stability of the Assembly to be entrenched and enhanced. That will not be done just by the institutions or the apparatus of democracy; it is far deeper than that. Perhaps there may be an opportunity for further discussion in your Lordships’ House—I do not think that tonight is the time—to address those issues to bring the entrenched stability that I think we all want.
We do not support the amendment at this time, while understanding the reasons why it has been proposed.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I want to preface my response by referring specifically to comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. Noble Lords have been in the Chamber this afternoon and may not be aware that I have issued a Written Statement that deals with that issue. I do not feel that it is appropriate to try to tackle it in this Chamber at this time, because it is not part of this debate.
I turn to the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, will be aware that the Government opposed amendments on this issue both in Committee in the other place and in Committee in this House. Despite the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, we retained our opposition here. Again, we will maintain that position to this amendment on this occasion.
I recognise the noble Lord’s views on the matter, and he clearly has a close personal interest in the issue. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, highlighted in Committee and again just now, the St Andrews agreement, which led to this mechanism, ultimately led to the re-establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It would be, to say the least, an unhelpful step if we were to start to unpick certain aspects of it.
I acknowledge the noble Lord’s views on whether the revised method for electing the First and Deputy First Ministers at Stormont was discussed at St Andrews. It is certainly the case that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, made that point in Committee. However, the revised method was enacted through the legislation which followed the St Andrews agreement in 2006. That legislation was endorsed and passed through this House. Whatever the merits of the amendment in the abstract, it would command limited support in Northern Ireland. Very probably, it would get virtually no cross-community support. It would provoke serious opposition and potential instability.
The current Northern Ireland settlement is imperfect, but it is what we have. I welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and her party on this issue. Her words echo my thoughts.
The noble Lord, Lord Bew, made some very important points. In response, I would say that the Government are acutely aware of the tensions and difficulties in Northern Ireland and within the Executive. That is one reason why we do not want to destabilise the settlement either by changing or attempting to change the mechanism for selecting the First Minister and Deputy First Minister or by involving ourselves in the devolution settlement on issues that are devolved. It is important that we do not disturb the situation. That does not mean that we are sleepwalking, or allowing Northern Ireland to sleepwalk, into any unravelling of the current situation. I agree strongly with the views of the noble Baroness. With every month that passes, the institutions of Northern Ireland become more firmly established in the country and as part of the politics, and it becomes less likely that they will hit the sort of problems that occurred soon after devolution was established.
As I highlighted in Committee, reopening old debates of this nature is liable to create a distraction that would shift the focus of Northern Ireland politics away from the pressing challenges that Northern Ireland faces—issues such as community division and economic renewal. I hope the noble Lord would agree that those issues should take precedence at this time and, in doing so, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Trimble
I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this little debate, which has gone on longer than I had hoped. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, said, these are issues that I have dealt with before. I remember certainly the first time I dealt with them in 2006. I divided the House, and I was very happy to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, in doing so. He has changed his position somewhat since then. I merely mention this from the point of view of spreading news on the matter.
I note the statement of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, who said that if one was to make a change, the change would require cross-community support. She is right. That is how the agreement was made. The agreement was made based on a broad support —a “sufficient consensus” as we called it—and the majority of unionists and the majority of nationalists supported it in the talks. If you are going to make a change to it—although no express provision has been made as to how changes should take place—then the noble Baroness is quite right to say that the changes would be legitimate if they were made by the same procedure by which the agreement was made in the first place.
That is not what happened in 2006. I was finding it somewhat difficult to follow what the Minister was saying at some points, but I think it is absolutely clear that the change to the identification of First and Deputy First Ministers was not actually in what is called the St Andrews agreement. It came into the legislation to implement it, but it only popped up at the last minute without any coherent explanation of where it came from, and with no indication that there was the sort of cross-community support that ought to have been sought for it. People say going back would be a bad thing to do. The Minister says that going back would have limited support in Northern Ireland. The original agreement had a referendum, and it was supported by an overwhelming majority; that referendum is ignored. It has been said many times in this debate that we should not upset the devolution settlement. The devolution settlement was upset, peremptorily. That is undeniable. Consequently this is something to which we will return, until we get things sorted out on this. We have at present a bad system which may have bad consequences; I hear what the Minister says about not sleepwalking and I hope that that is the case. We shall see. Let us make sure that we do what we can to ensure that there is no sleepwalking. I think I can guarantee the Minister and the Northern Ireland Office that we will return to this aspect of this issue, to try and ensure that people are on top of this. We have a rotten system which may turn round to bite us. This is not the time to press the matter further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.