Economic Case for HS2 (Economic Affairs Committee Report)

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to thank the Economic Affairs Committee, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for its work, which is the basis of today’s debate. I also thank all noble Lords for their contributions this afternoon.

It has been a stimulating and interesting debate, and one that has made us cast our memories back through history. I must admit that, when I heard my noble friend Lord Wolfson talk about NPVs and IRRs, I did cast my mind back to the many seminars I attended on investment analysis during my degree. Nevertheless, he raised some points that I will come on to.

We also heard views, and rightly so, from a scientific, economic and, with the right reverend Prelate’s comments, biblical basis. We can agree on one thing above all else: it has been a very absorbing debate, for over three hours now, and important issues have been raised. I will seek to address most, if not all, the questions with the caveat that, if there are certain questions that I do not cover, we will review those and write to noble Lords in that respect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, put it aptly when she said we can all agree that high-quality transport infrastructure is essential for our future prosperity.

I previously quoted the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, as saying that we should, “Get on with it”—which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, just paraphrased—but I was a bit perturbed when he said that people in Yorkshire hate members of the Government. I am a member of the Government who has many family members in Yorkshire and have visited there, both before my membership of the House of Lords—and pre my ministerial experience and responsibility—and also during it. I have always found the people of Yorkshire to be particularly warm towards me. Maybe there are exceptions to every rule.

[Lord Prescott]

Ask the Prime Minister.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Prime Minister has great regard for people from Yorkshire. Great cricketers come from that area as well. I am sure we can have a debate on cricket in due course, but I will move on to transport.

It was almost 200 years ago that the early canals and railways helped make Britain the most powerful economy in the world. The fundamentals are the same. Good freight transport, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, gives manufacturers a competitive edge by cutting the cost of deliveries and distribution. Good passenger transport links businesses with customers and links people with jobs, friends and family—from London to Yorkshire, indeed. Rail remains an essential part of the solution to the country’s transport needs today, but not to the detriment of other elements of transport.

The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley, Lord Greaves and Lord Monks, made particular mention of a national transport plan. I assure all noble Lords that the Government have set out how HS2 fits within the wider transport policy. The Strategic Case for HS2, published in 2013, explained in detail how HS2 fits with investment in the existing rail network and the wider government strategic aims of supporting growth and addressing the productivity gap between the north and south of the country. Several noble Lords mentioned the northern transport strategy, which was published earlier this year. It sets out the transport role in creating that northern powerhouse, of which HS2 is key. In July this year, the Government published Fixing the Foundations, setting out our plans to address the UK’s long-term productivity problem. All parts of the Government will contribute to that, including HS2. Let me assure noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Wolfson, that investment in rail is just one part of it. For example, we have committed through our roads strategy to invest £15 billion in our roads network over this Parliament.

Investing in rail is every bit as important today as it was in the pioneering Victorian era. For the last half century, we have allowed our infrastructure to fall well behind that of our competitors. Instead of building new capacity and modernising the network, and despite soaring passenger numbers, we have tried to patch and mend our ageing railway.

Central to the case for HS2 are data that reveal the true extent of the capacity crunch facing the UK rail network. Even with over £50 billion of planned transport investment over the next six years, the railways will be overwhelmed. As several noble Lords said, we are not just planning for today; this is about planning for the future. Overall, demand for rail travel has more than doubled since privatisation to 1.7 billion journeys a year. Intercity lines have experienced even faster growth, with journeys between London, Birmingham and Manchester trebling in the last 20 years. This is putting acute pressure on the infrastructure. The west coast line, for example, is now the busiest mixed-use rail line in Europe. Despite an extensive £9 billion upgrade programme completed in 2008, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed out, train paths on this line are effectively full.

Today we have the power to deliver the transformation in rail capacity that we so desperately need. HS2 is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to put the years of underinvestment and neglect behind us. Therefore, I welcome the support from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—support from both parties—on how we move forward with HS2. HS2 will bind Britain together and provide the space that we need to grow. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, articulated, without HS2 we would end up spending more money.

The project was always going to attract critics. Anything this ambitious will be controversial, particularly in a country that has seen no major new national transport infrastructure built since the coming of the motorways. The original railway was controversial; the Channel Tunnel was controversial, and some would argue that it still is; and the M25 remains, at times, a source of controversy and debate—anyone who has travelled on it will understand why. However, nobody questions the case for these schemes today. Frankly, the easy option for any Government would be to do nothing and leave the problem for some future generation to tackle. But the fact is that, if we do not take action now, major routes are going to be overwhelmed, as was so eloquently summarised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.

The benefits of HS2 are something that the Government, the Opposition and all major contributors have talked about before. It is about improving connectivity. HS2 will deliver the step change in capacity that we need to keep our vital arteries flowing. Compared with today, HS2 could triple the number of seats out of Euston. It will also unlock the capacity for freight on the west coast main line, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned. It will link eight of Britain’s 10 largest cities, directly serving one in five of the UK population, a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. It will benefit places not directly on the HS2 route by freeing up much-needed capacity on the existing railway.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, suggested that HS2 would suck investment into London and away from other cities. HS2 is designed to improve the connectivity of the north more than London, which has good transport links. More than 70% of the jobs supported by HS2 are expected to be outside London. A study by Network Rail has shown that over 100 towns and cities across the country could benefit from extra commuter and intercity services on existing lines, with capacity being liberated by the development of HS2. It will be particularly beneficial in the north and the Midlands, helping to rebalance the economy.

The legacy of HS2 will be felt well beyond those who use our transport networks. It will inspire a generation, providing new skills and jobs across a wide range of disciplines. The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, talked passionately about the need to invest in skills beyond just looking at infrastructure. This provides just that initiative. Recently, 11 September was the opening day of a programme of visits that I am making as the Skills Minister in the Department for Transport, one of which will be HS2 themed. Currently, only 5% of our children aspire to a career in transport and only 8% of Britain’s engineering workforce is female—the lowest rate in Europe. That is something we need to change, and the National College for High Speed Rail will be an integral part of the Government’s strategy for delivering a national high-speed rail network for Britain as well as designing and delivering the high-level technical skills needed for the industry more generally. HS2 is part of the Government’s growth strategy.

Of course, HS2 is a key strand of the Government’s commitment to support economic prosperity across the UK, but it is not the only one. In July 2015, the Chancellor of the Exchequer launched Fixing the Foundations, setting out our plan to address the UK’s long-term productivity problem—every part of government will contribute. For example, the HS2 growth strategies set out ambitious goals for regeneration and development on the back of HS2.

Our economic case is robust and shows HS2 represents good value for money. If anything our methodology is quite conservative. The benefit-to-cost ratio, which was mentioned by several noble Lords, is valued at 2.3 —or providing £2-worth of benefits for every £1 spent. The BCR could be even higher, reaching 4.5 if rail demand continues to rise until 2049.

We are committed to maximising benefits while keeping a firm grip on costs. We have established a robust framework of delegations and approvals. There is a joint HM Treasury, DfT and HS2 Ltd cost and risk group to ensure that there is a shared and continued drive down on costs. The spending round in 2013 set a clear funding envelope of £50.1 billion for HS2.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, raised the issue of fares and why the Government do not increase fares for business passengers to cover costs. The actual decision on fare structures will be taken by future Governments. However, our underlying assumption is that it is more important to maximise usage for the wider benefit of citizens and the economy than charge premium fares. The Government have also committed to keeping fares down, which is clearly illustrated by our commitment to cap fares at RPI for the term of the Parliament.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and my noble friend Lord Caithness, among others, raised the issue of the economic case, and clearly the committee was looking at HS2 on that basis. Our appraisal techniques are regarded by the DFT as being world class, and a number of experts provided evidence to the Lords committee that showed that the economic case was robust. Some have been mentioned already but, for example, Professor Venables noted that our quantification of user benefits and wider economic impacts was,

“done very well and very professionally”,

and Professor Graham, who is a transport economist, also commended our use of sensitivity testing.

The issue of transparency was raised about assessments of the HS2 case. In March 2010, we established the case for the high-speed rail network serving London and the West Midlands. In February 2011, we announced the consultation into the Government’s high-speed rail strategy and the preferred route for phase 1 of the scheme. In January 2012, there was the Government’s decision to proceed with phase 1 of HS2. There has been full transparency in that regard.

The right reverend Prelate raised the issue of the impact of HS2 on Chester. Phase 1 of HS2 generates significant journey-time savings to the north-west of the country and Network Rail estimates that up to 100 cities could benefit. I assure the right reverend Prelate that no decisions have yet been taken on rail services that will run when HS2 is complete, but the Government aim to ensure that those currently served by direct services will continue to be so.

Suggestions have also been made over the overall spending package, but as the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained to the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, last week, in the context of an annual government budget of £750 billion, the cost of £50 billion for HS2 over 20 years to improve the nation’s infrastructure, I can assure my noble friend Lord Wolfson, is something that the Chancellor believes we can afford.

The Government have also considered a range of alternatives to HS2 and published a series of substantial reports that weighed up the options, including upgrades to the existing rail network, the use of alternative modes and a conventional-speed line. The truth is that none of these alternatives would provide the big increase in capacity that several noble Lords referred to, and, more importantly, the connectivity that we need to meet future demand. Nor do they address the issue of reliability.

I shall seek to answer some of the other questions raised by noble Lords. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester raised the issue of wanting the fastest railway in the world. Sir David Higgins has been clear that we must build a railway that stands the test of time. We have undertaken extensive assessment of alternatives including slower speeds, but none of them offers the same scale of benefits as HS2.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, also raised the issue of extending HS2 to Scotland. HS2 delivers significant connectivity improvements to Scotland. The full Y network reduces rail journey times to Glasgow by 30 minutes and Edinburgh by 45 minutes. I assure noble Lords that the UK Government are considering with the Scottish Government opportunities to improve links further between HS2 and Scotland.

The noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Lea, raised the issue of HS3 linked to HS2. The Government are moving forward with plans for the east-west high-speed rail links and will invest £13 billion in this Parliament for better connecting the region, so that northern towns and cities can pool their strengths to create a single economy. The DfT is working jointly with Transport for the North to develop and prioritise the rail options for the first tranches ready for consideration and construction in the next rail investment period.

The noble Lords, Lord Prescott, Lord Snape and Lord Greaves, and the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, raised the issue of spending on transport beyond HS2. I assure all noble Lords that this is in addition to the other £38 billion that the Government have already confirmed as spending in this Parliament. This is broken down with various schemes and I will seek to write to noble Lords listing some of the schemes and expenditure included in that £38 billion.

The noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, and my noble friend Lord Wolfson also wanted an assurance that HS2 is not at the expense of other investment. I assure them that HS2 will not be at the expense of other transport investment. Overall, there is £73 billion of transport spending between 2015-16 and 2020-21.

The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, talked about platforms at Euston. I assure noble Lords that HS2 will not reduce the number of platforms at Euston. The noble Lord, Lord Truscott, said that it would. It will not; it will deliver 11 new high-speed platforms and 11 for the existing network. That is a total of 22 platforms, which is four higher than the current 18 platforms.

[Lord Berkeley]

Will the noble Lord clarify that? There are 18 platforms at Euston at the moment and if they will be reduced to 11 or 12 for the west coast main line, surely that is a reduction.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That is also part of what will be the structure serving the intercity network, and some of that burden will be eased by the opening of the HS2 platforms. The overall capacity will rise to 22 platforms, but the noble Lord is quite right to point out that the current 18 platforms serve both the commuter network and the existing intercity network.

The noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, talked about ministerial direction and the value-for-money case for HS2. I have already alluded to the benefit-cost ratio and I have also talked about the number of experts who provided evidence to the committee in this respect. The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, asked about the pause mentioned in relation to Network Rail on the appointment of Sir Peter Hendy. Sir Peter has a proven track record in delivering on major transport challenges. He will develop proposals for the rail upgrade programme and, as I have said before from this Dispatch Box, he will report to the Secretary of State in the autumn and we will come back to that. The noble Lord also asked about confidence in Sir David Higgins. The short answer to that is, yes, we have full confidence in his ability.

The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and other Peers asked about terminating at Old Oak Common. The vast majority of passengers coming into London want to travel on to other parts of the capital, so by having a stop at Old Oak Common, the links that will be provided by Crossrail will be available to all those using HS2. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, talked about ignoring the impact of technology. I believe he said that he will be 92 by the time HS2 comes live. I hope to join him in that carriage. I will be a tad younger, but nevertheless we will hook up at that time. But let me assure him that the Government are committed to the extension of broadband, as I am sure he is aware. The previous Government invested heavily in it and broadband remains a priority. But technology should not be used to the detriment of other investments. We can see that passenger rail journeys have increased at an incredible rate up to the current figures that I quoted earlier, and there is no evidence to suggest that technology such as videoconferencing will significantly reduce future rail demand or the spread of the internet. Time will tell, but thus far the evidence is not in support of that.

The environmental impact of HS2 was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, and my noble friend Lord Framlingham. Among others, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also touched on it in terms of the Chilterns. Let me assure noble Lords by giving examples of the steps being taken to avoid or significantly reduce the effects in the phase 1 environmental mitigation. These include some 127 kilometres of tunnels and cuttings to reduce noise and visual effects, as well as providing 102 kilometres of noise barriers along the surface sections to reduce the effect on communities.

I am coming to the end of my comments because I can see that the clock has run down on me. However, I will certainly respond to other questions which I have not had a chance to cover. Perhaps I may turn briefly to the question put by my noble friend Lord Framlingham about the Chilterns. Since the scheme was announced, we have introduced major changes to the proposed route through the areas of outstanding natural beauty. As recommended by the Select Committee, we are promoting a further extension to the Chilterns tunnel, which will offer broadly the same environmental benefits as the longer tunnel proposed by the residents’ environmental group. I will come back specifically on where we are with the Select Committee, which I believe has taken evidence from most of the witnesses. However, we are still awaiting the final comments of the committee in this respect. As I have said, if I have missed any points, I will return to them.

We believe, and the Government are clear, that there is a case for HS2. We have a 19th-century rail infrastructure that is trying to support a 21st-century economy, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea, put it so eloquently. Many of our main intercity routes are reaching capacity at busy times. As the passenger crowding statistics released last week clearly show, demand is growing rapidly and will continue to do so as our economy recovers. HS2 will have a transformational effect. It will improve connectivity, transform capacity, and free up space on our crowded rail network. It is important that the Government of the day should invest, and that is what we are seeking to do. We welcome the support of many noble Lords. This is our chance to do what the Victorian rail pioneers did all those years ago. We want to leave an infrastructure legacy that is fit for generations to come.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 2) Order 2015

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the order and regulations laid before the House on 19 May and 22 June be approved.

Relevant documents: 1st Report and 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (Special attention drawn to the first instrument). Considered in Grand Committee on 7 September.

Motions agreed.

Syria: Christian Refugees

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Green of Deddington]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to prioritise Christian refugees from Syria in their plans to resettle further refugees in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has already announced that over the course of this Parliament the United Kingdom will resettle up to 20,000 more Syrian refugees. The expanded programme will prioritise the most vulnerable refugees, particularly children and women at risk of abuse. It will not distinguish on the basis of religion.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that Answer from the Minister. Is he aware of an article in the Sunday press by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey of Clifton? He reported that Christians have been targeted by ISIL for crucifixion, beheading and rape. Even now, they are not to be found in the UN camps because they have been attacked by Islamists and have had to find refuge in private houses and churches. Will the Government now assure this House that they fully understand the plight of Syrian Christians and that they realise that they are not in the camps for the reason I have given? If they reach an agreement with the UNHCR that does not take account of that fact, they are discriminating against Christians, who have suffered from these events at least as much as anybody else. It can be done; it is a question of the small print. Let it be done.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that the Government take all persecution against any minority very seriously. In his consideration, he mentioned the Christians; and we have seen the appalling scenes against the Yazidis. All minorities who are suffering such persecution at the hands of this hideous ISIL entity will be dealt with in the proper way, by ensuring that their vulnerabilities are protected and they are given the protection they deserve.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

Does the noble Lord agree that Muslim countries, the Gulf states and particularly Saudi Arabia, which are oil rich, should be taking their share of refugees from Syria—on the basis not of religious apartheid but of vulnerability, need and genuine fear of war and persecution?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness. Let us put it into context: every religion of the world, at its inception and in its fundamentals, talks about non-discrimination. The countries around that region should put their faith into practice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, the work of the Weidenfeld Safe Havens Fund focuses on these ancient Christian communities that are under direct threat from ISIS and hide in fear of death and martyrdom, and for whom no special ultimate home has been found. Does the Minister not agree that this is not a question of discrimination? Threatened Muslims in the area have financial resources available in the Arab world, and are able to move more freely than Christians to find freedom. Following the Lord Privy Seal’s answer to your Lordships’ House on Monday to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, when is the Prime Minister planning to discuss with the UNHCR the plight of the Christians who are forced to flee and are not even allowed in the camps?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that the plight of Christians and, as I said, Yazidis and all minorities, is not going to be discussed but is being discussed to ensure that they get the protection they deserve, and that resources are made available to them. That is why the Government are looking quite specifically at ensuring that the refugees who are granted settlement in the UK are very much those currently in the areas surrounding Syria and Iraq, because they perhaps are the most deserving in terms of their security needs.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

My Lords, people of many faiths and none have sought refuge from oppression not only in Syria but elsewhere. Accordingly, are they not entitled to expect to be regarded in a much more benign and civilised way than this Government have exhibited so far?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I said yesterday from this Dispatch Box, and as my noble friend the Leader of the House said, this country has a history of showing mercy and tolerance. Also underlying our policy is showing humanity towards any persecuted minority or people across the world. We continue to do so, and that applies no differently when dealing with the Syrian refugee crisis.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, while no one can theologically or legally defend prioritising people on the grounds of their faith alone, can the Minister confirm that, just as giving Ugandan Asians refuge here was not prioritising people on the grounds of their race, where there is evidence of persecution on the grounds of faith or belief, membership of those communities should be a relevant criterion used by the UN and the UK in assessing those in greatest need?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That is exactly what our current policy is.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a large number of Syrians—Christian and others—are fleeing from the atrocities of ISIL but deciding to remain in Syria? I am told that it is estimated that the population of Damascus has increased by 100% in the past two years.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government are aware of that, and that is why I should say to the noble Lord that part of the £1 billion that they have allocated is helping those refugees who are directly displaced within the borders of Syria itself.

Freight Industry: Operation Stack

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have not completed an assessment of the economic impact of the implementation of Operation Stack, either on the freight industry or the British economy. The main cost to hauliers is the disruption to cross-channel services rather than Operation Stack itself, but we are acutely aware of the impact it has on both local communities and businesses in Kent in particular, and are rapidly exploring longer-term solutions.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I am very pleased to hear that Answer from the Minister. The migrant crisis and the ferry dispute combined have had a major impact on the UK, and the economic and social impact on the freight industry, its drivers, the Port of Dover, Eurotunnel, Kent Police, holidaymakers and, not least, the people of Kent, has been massive. Can the Minister assure us that the Government are looking positively at alternative solutions for the future, and possibly looking at a contraflow solution as used in 2005, with those problems firmly in mind?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Baroness that I was directly involved in many of the COBRA meetings over the summer that dealt with Operation Stack and the alternatives. As the noble Baroness may be aware, the Government put in place a temporary measure at Manston Airport in Kent to relieve those pressures. Thankfully, since 31 July we have not had to invoke Operation Stack. Nevertheless, I assure the noble Baroness that we are working with local partners, including Kent Police, Kent County Council and other key local stakeholders to ensure exactly what she says: a long-term solution that works for the benefit of the British economy and the people of Kent.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, at the other end of the channel in Calais there is equal chaos. While I welcome a new fence around the Eurotunnel terminal, which may help to reduce the incursion of migrants, can the Minister confirm that the rail freight terminal next door—I declare an interest as chairman of the Rail Freight Group—will be incorporated by the same quality fence and have the same policing? Rail freight has virtually stopped in the past week, which is extremely bad for the industry and, of course, for the economy.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks with experience of this area. Of course, those seeking to cross the channel targeted and had a major impact on rail freight. It is just not about fencing. The Home Secretary, along with her team and the French Government, had several meetings with Bernard Cazeneuve, the French Interior Minister, to ensure a comprehensive protection programme for all facilities on the other side of the channel. We continue to work closely with the French Government in ensuring that those who seek to enter the UK use the appropriate channels so that we can prevent the kind of scenes we saw over the summer.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, this problem is not likely to go away very quickly. It is likely to occur again several times in the future. Are the facilities at Manston Airport up to dealing with these people? Are there facilities for eating and refreshment, lavatories and security? The place at Manston must have all those things if it is to be taken seriously by the haulage industry.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The short answer to that is yes; the last thing the Government want is aggravated lorry drivers and hauliers who are not satisfied with the facilities. The points the noble Lord has raised, including security, are directly addressed in that provision at Manston.

[Lord Imbert (CB)]

Is this not an appropriate time to send our congratulations and thanks to the services—fire, police and ambulance—which kept the peace during Operation Stack? None of them complained about being put on night duty at 10 minutes’ notice. As a long-serving police officer, I know what it is like when you have arranged to take your child to a birthday outing the following day, your one day off, and the superintendent says, “Sorry, lad, you’re reporting to me at 11 pm tomorrow, and make sure your motorcycle is full of petrol. You’re on night duty on Operation Stack”. We have heard the Home Secretary criticise the police many times during the last year and I will not argue that those criticisms were not deserved, but it would help a demoralised service if occasionally the Government could say thank you to those who work unsocial hours at a moment’s notice, dealing with the frustration and anger that is building up on Operation Stack.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The short answer is that I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to all the local services, including the police, which did a sterling job during the summer in dealing with what was a challenge for the whole country.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the whole House recognises that the police and other services came out of that situation with their reputations enhanced, but we cannot say that for the two Governments who created this shambles. Will the Minister recognise just how dangerous and damaging to our exports this failure was over that period? Does he appreciate that exports are lost when blocks of this kind occur? How dare the Government prevent British cheese being exported to Normandy and British sparkling wine being exported to the Champagne region of France?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My short response is that sometimes I think that the Opposition should show magnanimity in terms of the challenges that the Government faced and the action taken. There was general recognition that this was a major challenge for the whole country. The Government acted with our partners in France and with the local services, as we have heard, in a manner that reflected the needs of the country and to ensure a short-term and long-term solution.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government could set an example on magnanimity, given the number of times that they refer to the previous Labour Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I, for one—and I am sure that I speak for colleagues on the Front Bench—am certainly always magnanimous in acknowledging everyone around the House.

Civilian Use of Drones (EUC Report)

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I join the chorus of gratitude that has been put on record to the committee and in particular to the chairman, my noble friend Lady O’Cathain, both for her leadership of the committee and for the production of what rightly has been termed an excellent report.

I am the father of three young children who thus far have not quite got on to drones; we have got to the point of flying planes and helicopters by remote control. The issue of how drone technology will develop in the leisure industry, which was mentioned by several noble Lords, and the implications for parental responsibility are things that certainly I look forward to.

We have had an absorbing debate today. In debates such as this, we hear a great deal. We have heard about the practical flying skills of two of my noble friends. We heard about the piloting skills of my noble friend Lord Goschen, and I was pleased to learn that my noble friend Lord Astor admirably spent his summer learning how to fly drones. I am sure that in any future committees under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that are set up to seek evidence about drones, they can ably supply some practical drone-flying skills.

The Government welcome the growth of this industry. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about acronyms. As a government Minister, one thing you are constantly faced with in any briefing that you receive is acronyms. On a lighter note, I asked my officials whether I should use the word “drones” or the term used by several noble Lords, “remotely piloted aircraft systems” or RPAS. In the public interest, I think that “drones” is the right way to progress and that is what I shall use, much against the advice of my officials, for which I apologise.

The Government’s aim is for the European Commission to enable safe integration of drone technology into the same airspace as their manned counterparts. The new emerging aviation sector represents a great opportunity for the United Kingdom, as we heard from several noble Lords. We are already seeing small, innovative UK SME companies using this technology to great effect in the energy sector, agriculture and media industries—points mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Rees and Lord Wilson. However, we have also seen that these industries are prevented from realising the full potential of this technology by the current lack of a cohesive regulatory environment. For example, the flying of remotely piloted aircraft systems is restricted to within line of sight or in segregated airspace.

The Government therefore welcome the European Commission’s recent Riga declaration, which established drones as a new type of aircraft. The declaration shares the Government’s view about the importance of drones to the economies of Europe, including through the potential for new jobs in the manufacturing industry. This is particularly true for the United Kingdom. In addition, the Government agree that the incremental integration of drones into unsegregated airspace must not reduce the level of safety presently achieved in civil aviation. As several noble Lords pointed out, including the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, there is a need for an EU-level response to this. Certainly, the Government support that.

However, we believe that it does not make sense to have the full weight of aviation regulations, designed around the safety of passengers and crew on manned aircraft, applied to small drones that will predominantly weigh less than 25 kilograms. Regulations should be risk-based and proportionate. The challenge is that the regulations are already lagging behind the technology, and this gap will only increase if the Commission and European Aviation Safety Agency fail to address the regulatory issues more quickly.

The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and my noble friend Lord Wei also mentioned the issue of European action. The Government were pleased to note that the European Aviation Safety Agency published its proposals for the concept of operations earlier this year, which, on the face of it, appear to be a risk-based approach to the regulation of drones. The Government welcome the agency’s attempt to establish different categories according to the complexity of the operation, a point made by my noble friend Lord Wei. The European Aviation Safety Agency has proposed: an open category for very low-risk drone operations that might not need the involvement of civil aviation authorities; a specific operation category which will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis by civil aviation authorities; and a certified category for complex operations, which will be comparable to what is done with manned aviation. The agency is currently consulting on these proposals.

The noble Lords, Lord Whitty, Lord Jay and Lord Rosser, all talked about JARUS—yet another acronym—which stands for the Joint Authorities for Rulemaking on Unmanned Systems. As noble Lords will know, this is an informal consortium made up of national aviation authorities from within and beyond the European Union. The joint authorities have been asked by the European Commission to help develop the detailed rules for remotely piloted aircraft systems and small drones. This has placed the joint authorities in a difficult position, because it is an informal group and not a legal entity, with membership spanning the globe, including China, the US, Brazil, Australia and Israel. In addition, it has been very difficult for industry to contribute to this group’s important work, which remains a challenging issue for the very important partnerships built up in JARUS.

The Government have been concerned for a while now about the lack of accountability of the joint authorities group. Little progress appears to have been made on the development of rules needed by the industry. The Government believe that it is essential that some form of oversight body is put in place to ensure that the work that the joint authorities are undertaking is properly resourced and prioritised to best meet industry requirements. I assure noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Jay, that the Government have been engaging with other member states and the agency to seek their agreement on this issue. We hope to see progress later this year. In addition, we are seeking greater reassurance on industry’s active involvement in this work.

The UK already has regulations for users of drones. Article 166 of the UK Air Navigation Order 2009 requires operators of drones to,

“maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions”.

It also states that an operator may fly the aircraft only if they are reasonably satisfied that the flight can be made safely. Article 167 of that order requires that all drones fitted with cameras must have the permission of the Civil Aviation Authority to be used within 50 metres of people or buildings that are not under the control of the drone operator. In addition, Article 138 of the ANO 2009, which also applies to drones, states that,

“a person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property”.

That includes persons within another aircraft, and of course the aircraft that those persons are within. The Government expect users to understand and comply with this type of regulation, which has been in place for many years, albeit covering the flight of more traditional model aircraft.

My noble friends Lord Astor and Lord Goschen also raised the issue of CAA rules. As with all other aircraft, drones will be permitted to operate in UK airspace only if it is considered that it is safe for them to do so. Drones that have a mass exceeding 20 kilograms may be flown only under an airworthiness certification issued by the CAA or under an exemption issued by the CAA. Those requirements are identical for those required for manned aircraft.

As several noble Lords pointed out, we have seen a big increase in the use of small drones in the UK. The Civil Aviation Authority has experienced a jump in applications for commercial use of small unmanned aircraft. My noble friend Lord Astor asked how many had been sold. I do not have that figure to hand, but the CAA has issued more than 670 permissions to fly in 2015. We also note that the availability of relatively low-cost small drones over the internet and in high street electronic retail outlets has resulted in a radical increase in the number being purchased for leisure activities. With Christmas fast approaching, I am sure that they will prove a popular purchase.

I am also aware that there have been a few incidents that have caused some concern to commercial aircraft, a point made by my noble friend Lord Balfe and the former chairman of the committee, my noble friend Lady O’Cathain. Concern has been expressed about recent incidents at both Heathrow and Manchester airports. I am pleased to say that the Civil Aviation Authority has been thinking about this problem and has launched a publicity campaign called “You have control. Be safe, be legal”, which is aimed at raising the awareness of the general public, at the point of purchase, about their responsibilities as unmanned aircraft operators. I assure my noble friends Lord Astor and Lord Liverpool and the noble Lords, Lord Giddens and Lord Haskel, that the Government recognise that an increase in the popularity of small drones with cameras raises a number of questions, as they said in their contributions, about safety, security, privacy and data protection.

Safety and security must always be the overriding priorities, and both commercial and leisure operators must operate drones responsibly and within the rules. Indeed, we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Rees, and other noble Lords about incidents elsewhere, particularly in the United States. Of course this leads to public concerns around the issues of safety, security and privacy, and I am able to confirm to noble Lords that the Home Office is currently in discussions with police forces with regard to the policing and monitoring of such vehicles and that initial guidance has been provided to constabularies across the UK. In addition, my noble friends Lord Liverpool and Lord Astor, and the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, asked about drones and personal data. Let me give an assurance that the operators of drones which collect personal data must comply with the Data Protection Act 1998 unless a relevant exemption applies. The requirements of the DPA are regulated by the independent Information Commissioner’s Office.

My noble friend Lady O’Cathain and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised the issue of police resourcing in respect of drones. The National Police Chief Council’s national strategic working group on drones has oversight of police activity in this area and is responsible for ensuring that there is a standardised and co-ordinated response to the threat. This includes ensuring that all police use of drones is undertaken by qualified pilots in line with CAA regulations and providing national guidance to forces on investigating drone misuse. Any decision to use drones to support operational policing rests with individual chief constables, who will allocate the resources they deem necessary to meet such requirements. The police will assess any report of drone misuse and will take a decision on further action subject to an assessment of the threat, risk and harm. The CAA, of course, retains responsibility for dealing with misuse that directly affects civil aviation. In addition, the Home Office is providing support to Sussex Police via the Police Innovation Fund 2015-16 to consider strategically the opportunities that UAVs present to policing nationally: those that help to protect the public as well as the threats associated with this evolving technology, which is being kept under constant review.

My honourable friend and fellow transport Minister, Robert Goodwill, the Minister for Aviation, recently announced in his evidence to the sub-committee that the Government are committed to engaging with the general public to seek views on the use of drones in the UK. This is an important step. As several noble Lords have said, the public must have confidence in this new technology and be aware of how it can potentially impact on their daily lives. My noble friend Lady O’Cathain and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about public consultation, and I am pleased to be able to say that the Government have engaged a public dialogue specialist, Sciencewise, to hold a series of public dialogue events around the country to better understand the public’s concerns about the use of drones. These events will start in November and are designed to attract a range of people from all walks of life. They will be followed by a specific public consultation on the issue which is scheduled for spring 2016.

I turn now to some of the remaining questions that were raised by noble Lords. My noble friends Lord Wei and Lord Balfe asked about matters related to insurance. Issues relating to insurance of the industry will be covered in the public consultation to be published in 2016. The CAA and the industry are talking to several insurance companies about the issue of drones. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the letter from my honourable friend Robert Goodwill which is outstanding. My understanding is that it will be issued shortly, and after the debate I will follow up on the points raised by the noble Lord in this respect. He also asked what the Government are doing in terms of talking to industry about the development of an app to track and manage small drones. The Government have received several proposals for such an app, but the development of this technology is still at an embryonic stage. We will continue to work with SMEs in the development of such a tool and I will update the noble Lord accordingly.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, talked in specific terms about Richmond Park and the notices which have appeared there. As someone who lives not that far from the park, I will certainly go and examine them at some point soon. My understanding is that this decision has been taken specifically by the local parks authority. We are also focused on the fact that the public consultation will flush out any issues where regulation needs further attention.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, talked about the Government working group, its specific recommendations and indeed the terms of reference for the group. As he will be aware, it is to be jointly chaired by the Department for Transport and the Ministry of Defence. It will seek to inform drone-related departmental priorities and will publish a UK cross-government strategy. It will look at synergies and opportunities, as well as identifying and addressing the barriers to a successful UK industry base. I am sure that the group will pick up on the points that the noble Lord has raised about using technology in this manner.

My noble friend Lady O’Cathain specifically mentioned NASA and the involvement of the Government with it, as well as industry engagement. The Government are in early discussions with NASA about the drone traffic management system, and it is hoped that those discussions will lead to a UK involvement in the development of that system and the participation of UK industry in future trials to test the robustness of the technology.

If there are any remaining questions, I will certainly review Hansard and respond to noble Lords accordingly. The Government believe, as all contributors to today’s debate have said, that drones represent a significant opportunity for economic growth in the United Kingdom which businesses are already starting to realise, but the integration of remotely piloted aircraft into airspace must not reduce the level of safety presently being achieved in civil aviation. The key to achieving success in both these areas will be the understanding and support of the public and, indeed, of drone users. As I have said, the views of the public are to be sought and taken into account as we move forward and safely grasp this important opportunity for economic growth in what is an exciting sector.

This has been a fascinating, informed and absorbing debate. It has covered issues ranging from defence to leisure. Indeed, we heard about the surprise of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, at a wedding and of the camel guidance experienced by my noble friend Lord Astor in the Middle East. This shows the spread, depth and breadth of drone technology. It is an evolving field and this is a debate that I am sure we will return to. However, it falls to me finally to thank once again all the members of the sub-committee, particularly the chairman, my noble friend Lady O’Cathain, and indeed all noble Lords for their participation in what has been an excellent debate.

Refugee Crisis

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to tackle the refugee crisis affecting Europe.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has announced, as we heard yesterday, that over the course of this Parliament the United Kingdom will resettle up to 20,000 more Syrian refugees under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme. The Prime Minister has also announced a further £100 million of aid, bringing the Government’s commitment to £1 billion, more than any other country in the world with the exception of the USA.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for adding to the Statement of yesterday, but we have a great deal of confusion. What is the Government’s policy? A week ago, we were told by the Prime Minister that we did not need to welcome any further refugees, as it would not answer the question, and that we should invest in the countries from which they were coming. Then this Sunday, on the Andrew Marr show the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that we need to invest in the work of local authorities in giving housing to refugees coming here. When we think of those 5,000 refugees, it is really 4,000 every year for the next five years—and that is as individuals. In families, it will probably be between 1,000 and 2,000 families a year. What is the Government’s policy? In all this, we have not a penny to be given to those who are most in need: those on the roads for hundreds of miles, and who even suffer drowning and so on, because the Government here are sitting on their hands and not doing anything in a practical way.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I say from the outset that it is preposterous to suggest that the drowning of migrants is somehow attributable to the Government here—it is attributable to those criminal gangs who actually pick on vulnerable people. Every one of us was moved by the pictures we saw of those drowning children, but that drowning child was just one example of what we have seen with those criminal gangs. The Government are at the forefront of working with EU partners to ensure that we tackle those criminal gangs. The noble Lord asked about government policy. Let us be clear: it is comprehensive. As I said in my original Answer, £1 billion has been sent to those countries which are supporting the people—the real refugees—across the Syrian crisis in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan—as I saw myself in the Zaatari camp. The Prime Minister has announced an additional 20,000 on top of the 5,000 places that we have guaranteed here to those people under the vulnerable people scheme. These are practical steps of a comprehensive policy in dealing with a situation which is impacting not just the region or Europe but globally. It needs a global solution and the UK is playing its part.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The Government said yesterday that the full cost of supporting Syrian refugees in the UK for the first year would be met through the international aid budget, easing the burden on local authorities. Is it the Government’s intention that local authorities, rather than the Government, will pay some or all of the cost of supporting the up to 20,000 Syrian refugees after the first year, and over the rest of this Parliament, or are the Government prepared to give a commitment now that they will continue to pay the full cost after the first year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government have made a commitment in supporting an additional 20,000—it is an evolving situation and the Government will continue to review the situation in terms of numbers. The noble Lord raised the issue of finance. Again, my right honourable friend the Chancellor has announced that the Government will be looking at the increase we are seeing in the international development budget because of the growth in GDP and how local authorities —which have a crucial role in resettlement—can also be supported. The Government will continue to review the situation and monitor it closely to ensure that we get assistance to those people most in need. That is our history and the legacy of this nation. This Government will proudly continue with that legacy.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite asks an important question. What will be the legal status of the refugees who we intend to take and what will be the length of their leave to remain? How will we ensure that resources follow their legal status?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend has campaigned extensively on this issue, and she is quite right to raise the question of status. The grant will be for a five-year period, after which their situation will be reviewed in line with our immigration and asylum policy. Their situation will be reviewed in the same way as for the 5,000 who have claimed asylum so far in the UK from Syria.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it is not right that such a heavy burden should fall on countries such as Greece, Italy, Malta and certain Balkan states? Should there not be far greater solidarity across Europe, regardless of whether countries are in the euro or in the Schengen agreement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I think I speak for Her Majesty’s Government when I say that the countries most in need—let us be clear about this—are those bordering Syria, such as Lebanon and Jordan. If you visit the camps, you see the desperate plight of the refugees there. The Government have provided assistance: we are providing vital support to the most vulnerable in terms of health, vaccination and education in the surrounding countries in that crisis area. However, I agree with the noble Lord that it needs a unified effort across Europe and beyond.

Airports Commission

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the cost of the Airports Commission, chaired by Sir Howard Davies, including the costs of commissioning and analysing the commission’s final report.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, up until the end of August 2015, the cost of the Airports Commission is around £13.4 million across 2012-13 to 2015-16. This covers buildings, staff and IT costs, consultancy, publishing, travel and hosting public consultation events. The final cost will be known once the commission secretariat has been dissolved, following which we intend to publish the final figures. We do not hold estimates of the cost of commissioning or reviewing the findings and conclusions of the Airport Commission’s report.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, would it not therefore be a terrible waste of money if the Government were to reject the unanimous advice of the commission to go ahead with developing Heathrow through a third runway in such a way as to make it again the No. 1 international airport in the world, which it certainly was when I was Minister for Aviation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend makes a very valid point about the detailed work done by the Airports Commission. I again put on record our thanks to Sir Howard Davies and his fellow commissioners for their work. As I said before the Recess, the Government have received the report. As my noble friend will be aware, the Prime Minister has established a Cabinet sub-committee on this issue and will announce the way forward by the end of this year.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Will the announcement be made before the end of the year, and if not, why not?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made clear to the Leader of the Opposition in the other place that the decision will be made and will be made by the end of the year.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, is it the Government’s view that the Davies commission’s remit gives sufficient consideration to the impact of a third runway on the Government’s plans for a northern powerhouse? Are the Government convinced that the development of Heathrow will not have an adverse impact on, for instance, Birmingham and Manchester Airports?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government believe very strongly in the regional airport network. As I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, Manchester announced earlier this year—at the beginning of the summer in June—a £1 billion investment over the next 10 years. Indeed, we have seen further investment in, for example, road surface improvements around Birmingham, Bristol and Doncaster Airports, so various investments are being made which will reinforce the northern powerhouse.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, Sir Howard Davies and his commission have put a lot of work into coming up with their recommendation, which has been decided as the one to go forward with. Why do the Government now have to appoint another sub-committee and take even more time? There is probably need for expansion of both Heathrow and Gatwick, but let us get on with Heathrow because it is affecting our competitiveness as a nation. Could the Minister assure us that this is going to be taken quickly and it will be established and put in place really fast?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right. I agree with him that this has been a detailed report, which the previous Government, under the current Prime Minister, commissioned in 2012. The report has been received, and I am sure the noble Lord would agree with me that it is time now to give the detailed report considered opinion. It is quite right that there should be a sub-committee of the Cabinet to take this decision forward. I reiterate the point that the Prime Minister has made quite clear: a decision will be made by the end of the year.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that I spent the first two years of the last Parliament dodging this very issue? The reason was the helpful policy input from the Liberal Democrat party. Does the Minister recognise that the Government really will have to make a decision on this matter this year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I would never accuse my noble friend of dodging anything. If he did so that was his assessment; I thought he handled questions in this respect very ably from the Dispatch Box. I reiterate that the Government—and indeed the Prime Minister—have made it clear that a decision will be made and it will be made by the end of the year.

[Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)]

Whatever option is pursued, is it not clear that the cost will be enormous? Is not the real issue this: how best and how quickly we can advance British aviation in the best possible way? Surely it is apparent that there is only one answer and it is becoming blindingly obvious—Heathrow.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, I feel I am repeating myself. The Government have made their position very clear. The report has been received, it is being considered and a decision will be made. Of course the Government recognise the importance of Heathrow as well as other airports around the country. We continue to regard the importance of aviation in developing, furthering and strengthening the British economy.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, presumably the Secretary of State for Transport from time to time considered the issue of Heathrow and answered one or two questions on it in the other place. It is inconceivable that the Government are acting as if they are in total ignorance of the main features of what the report has been considering. I cannot understand—nor can the House, I believe—the additional delay in either endorsing that conclusion or saying that, in fact, the Government had an alternative strategy all along.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

There is no dithering. Let us be quite clear here: it was the previous Government under the current Prime Minister, the same Prime Minister, who commissioned the report. The report was commissioned in 2012. The findings were received—very detailed analysis I am sure the noble Lord recognises—and there were 70,000 responses contained within the commission’s report. Therefore, it is quite right that a considered opinion is given to the commission’s recommendations, and that decision will be made not in due course, as I say again, but as the Prime Minister—the head of the Government—has made clear, by the end of this year, that is 2015.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister would make an educated guess—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, in making the decision on Heathrow or Gatwick, depending on which it is, will the Government publish after the decision the considerations of the legal delays that might occur depending on which decision is taken? It would seem to me that the advocates of Heathrow should surely want for the first spades to start the construction work as soon as possible. However, Gatwick seems more plausible in terms of fewer political and legal interventions.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government have already made clear that they wish to proceed on whatever option is pursued on a speedy basis. That is why we set up the commission report in the first place and the Government have made clear that they will take a decision. In terms of the proposal about legal issues or whatever, it would be speculative for me to comment on those on this occasion because that decision has yet to be taken.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 2) Order 2015

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 2) Order 2015.

Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (special attention drawn to the instrument)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the order was laid before Parliament on 25 June. As noble Lords will be aware, temporary control legislation is a vehicle which enables us to act relatively swiftly to protect the public. It also provides time for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs to gather evidence and prepare full advice on the permanent control of such drugs.

The order specifies seven methylphenidate-based new psychoactive substances, including their simple derivatives, as drugs subject to temporary control under Section 2A(1) of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The Government are grateful for the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs’s continued support in informing the Government’s response to emerging new psychoactive substances sold as so-called legal highs. The advisory council’s advice informed the order that we are considering today.

On 31 March, the then Minister for Crime Prevention received a recommendation from the advisory council under the temporary control provisions of the 1971 Act. The ACMD advised that five new psychoactive substances, related to the Class B drug methylphenidate, were being misused and that their misuse was having sufficiently harmful effects to warrant temporary control. This advice was accepted and a temporary order for the five substances came into force on 10 April 2015.

Following the coming into force of that order, the Government are aware that online retailers immediately withdrew those substances from sale and replaced them with a further two closely related substances. This came to light through the advisory council’s considerations in preparation of advice for permanent control. On 16 June, the advisory council provided further advice on the two related substances and recommended that they should be included in this new temporary order. The ACMD continues to gather evidence to support a full report on these compounds.

The previous temporary order made on 10 April lapsed on 27 June, as there was insufficient time for both Houses to approve the order. The new temporary order that we are considering today came into force on 27 June to replace that order. This order specifies all seven methylphenidate-based new psychoactive substances, including their simple derivatives, as drugs subject to temporary control.

The methylphenidate-based substances are highly potent stimulants. One of these substances, ethylphenidate, was marketed online as an alternative to cocaine. Their harms are reported to include anxiety, paranoia, visual disturbance, chest pain and a strong urge to re-dose. Other reported harms include bizarre and violent behaviour, loss of fine motor control and high risk of bacterial infection and local tissue damage from injecting.

One branded formulation, Burst, was reported as causing particular problems in the Edinburgh area, including among injecting drug users, who report reinjecting repeatedly. There has also recently been a report of an outbreak of infections in that area associated with the injecting of new psychoactive substances, believed to involve ethylphenidate.

The National Programme on Substance Abuse Deaths reported five cases in 2013-14 where ethylphenidate was found in post-mortem toxicology, and another two cases where ethylphenidate was implicated in the cause of death during 2013-14. The advisory council recommended that urgent action should be taken due to the extremely potent nature of these compounds. For these reasons, the Minister for Policing, Crime, Criminal Justice and Victims accepted the advisory council’s advice. The order, which is already in force, applies UK-wide to protect the public. It enables enforcement action against suppliers and traffickers while the advisory council prepares full advice on these compounds.

Under the order, front-line officers have additional powers to disrupt the sale of the substances online and in local head shops by targeting retailers who they suspect of selling temporary class drugs—if not other controlled drugs—including seizing their stock for analysis.

The activity is supported by the Home Office forensic early-warning system, which continues to provide added forensic capability to police forces. The order also sends out a clear message to the public, especially to young and vulnerable people, that these compounds are harmful drugs. The Government and the advisory council continue to monitor, through UK and EU drugs early-warning systems, these and other emerging compounds marketed as legal alternatives to controlled drugs.

Of course, until the Government receive the full report on these drugs they will continue to update public health messages to inform the public on drug harms, using the latest evidence gathered from early-warning systems. We know that the law change, on its own, cannot deter all those inclined to use or experiment with these drugs. However, we expect the order to have a notable impact on the availability and, in turn, demand for these drugs, as we saw with other substances.

Noble Lords will remember that methoxetamine was subject to temporary control and subsequently controlled permanently under the 1971 Act. We are aware that, on introduction of the temporary order, online sellers of these compounds immediately removed them from sale. Anecdotal reports from Edinburgh, where these compounds were first reported as being injected, also suggest a reduction in the number of people seeking treatment as a result of harms suffered from injecting them.

In conclusion, Parliament’s approval of the order will ensure that it remains in force to reduce the threat to the public posed by these temporary class drugs for up to 12 months, while the advisory council prepares full advice on harms in relation to permanent control. I beg to move.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and reasons for this order, which we support. As he said, the order is a temporary class drug order that can be made if the substance or, in this case, substances are not class A, B or C drugs, and if the Secretary of State has either consulted the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs or received a recommendation from the ACMD that a temporary class drug order should be made. The drug also has to be one that is being, or is likely to be, misused, and that misuse is having or is capable of having harmful effects.

The Explanatory Memorandum sets out the evidence in support of the necessary requirements that have to be met to make this order—which, as the Minister said, came into force towards the end of June and can remain in force for a maximum of 12 months. Having been made, the order requires a resolution of both Houses within 40 sitting days if it is to remain in force.

It would be helpful if the Minister could say why it was not possible for the Government to find time for this order to be discussed in this House between 25 June, when it was laid before Parliament, and 22 July, nearly a month later, when the House rose for the Summer Recess, particularly bearing in mind that the order came into force on 27 June. It is now nearly some two and a half months after it came into force that we are able to consider the order. It would be helpful to hear the Minister’s response on that point.

One of the purposes of such a temporary order is that it enables a new psychoactive substance or substances to be brought under the temporary control of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, while, as the Minister said, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs can make a full assessment of its harms for consideration for permanent control as a drug under that Act. The Explanatory Memorandum states that the provisions of this order and its consequences will be communicated to key stakeholders and the wider public, especially young people. Presumably this has now been done.

Who are deemed to be the key stakeholders and do they differ from those listed as being consulted in paragraph 8 of the Explanatory Memorandum, headed “Consultation Outcome”? Are, for example, the businesses selling these substances in the legal-highs market, referred to in paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum, regarded as key stakeholders and thus advised of the terms of this order?

Although the Minister addressed the point in his opening comments, since the order has been in force for nearly two and a half months, is there any information on the impact that it has had on the level of use and availability of the two further related substances now subject to this order that were not included in the previous order? Might implementation and enforcement of the order be resulting, in respect of those two further substances, in the risks set out in paragraph 6.1 of the impact assessment materialising? Those risks are of course in respect of chemical derivatives or alternative new psychoactive substances imitating their effects being introduced in an attempt to circumvent the temporary drug control.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his support on this matter. This issue impacts society as a whole and when we are considering such matters it is important not only to discuss them but, where possible, that agreement is reached. We are looking at this particular issue and the challenges that psychoactive substances pose generally as a major challenge for society as a whole.

The noble Lord raised the issue of scheduling and timetabling. While I do not have a detailed assessment, based on my own previous roles in government, including as a government Whip, I can say that this is scheduled according to other parliamentary business and is discussed through the usual channels. The important point to bear in mind is that we proceed with this order now, as the noble Lord acknowledged, and do so in a timely fashion.

Turning to the noble Lord’s question about communication—again, a very important point—included within “key stakeholders” are the ACMD, the Department of Health, BIS, industry and the MHRA. It is important that all key stakeholders that were part of the initial consultation are included in the communications that have taken place. The noble Lord also asked about the additional two substances or derivative products that were subsequently included. I will write to him about specific issues or evidence that have been raised.

I also stress that tackling the legal high market continues to be an important priority for this Government and the advisory council’s work programme. Noble Lords will be aware of the Government’s action to ban the supply of psychoactive substances for human consumption for their psychoactive effect through the Psychoactive Substances Bill. As noble Lords are aware, the Bill completed its passage through this House before the Summer Recess and has now been introduced in the House of Commons. When in force, the Bill will give powers to the police and other enforcement agencies to enable them to disrupt the supply of these dangerous and harmful compounds, including tackling their availability on the internet.

The legislative action is supportive of the long-term strategic objectives—many of which I know noble Lords share—set out in the Government’s action plan: to reduce demand by raising awareness of the harms of psychoactive substances; to make it difficult to obtain and supply those that pose risks to health; and to ensure that statutory services are able to effectively provide treatment and support recovery. Our balanced approach to tackling psychoactive substance misuse includes the development of toolkits on prevention, and programmes on treatment such as NEPTUNE. We have also taken action in response to the New Psychoactive Substances Review Expert Panel’s recommendations to help local areas prevent and respond to the use of new psychoactive substances, including guidance on taking action against the head shops I mentioned earlier. We have acted swiftly on the advisory council’s advice to make the temporary class drug order presented today to protect the public from the potential harms of these substances.

We are committed to a drugs policy that is informed by evidence of harm and the advisory council’s expert advice. Our duty as a Government is to consider this advice in light of all the information made available by drugs early warning systems to ensure that our response is proportionate to the threat posed by emerging drugs. As I am sure noble Lords will acknowledge, the UK continues to lead international action to tackle the emergence of new psychoactive substances. Our efforts, supported by key partners, led to the international control of mephedrone by the UN in March this year. We continue to share best practice on a balanced approach, including recently sharing our world-leading treatment guidance with our international partners. We also continue to work with our key partners on a list of new compounds that are causing concern, with a view to the UN subjecting these compounds to international control in due course. I hope that noble Lords will find that this legislative measure is conducive to ensuring that ultimately the public are protected from the harms of these new psychoactive substances, and I therefore again commend the order to noble Lords.

[Lord Rosser]

Before the noble Lord sits down, may I come back to my question about who the key stakeholders are? Paragraph 8 refers to who is consulted. Paragraph 9 states:

“The provisions of this Order and its consequences will be communicated to key stakeholders and the wider public, especially young people”.

Paragraph 10 makes reference to,

“those businesses selling these substances in the ‘legal highs’ market”.

Does the reference to the key stakeholders—that is, those who will be advised of the provisions of this order and its consequences—include, for example, those businesses selling these substances in the legal highs market, referred to in paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I believe that we have communicated to all key stakeholders, including those mentioned within the order. However, for fullness of response, I shall write to the noble Lord to ensure that there is a full record of that.

Motion agreed.

Merchant Shipping (Alcohol) (Prescribed Limits Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Merchant Shipping (Alcohol) (Prescribed Limits Amendment) Regulations 2015.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations will bring in new alcohol limits for professional mariners in UK waters or serving on board UK-flagged ships wherever they are in the world. These limits, more restrictive than those in place today, are aligned with those agreed at the International Maritime Organization to apply to all shipping around the globe, with the intention of improving maritime safety.

Noble Lords will be aware of the vital contribution made by the maritime industry to the well-being of this country. In this London International Shipping Week we are celebrating the fact that 95% of our imports and exports are carried by ship, and that the maritime sector contributes up to £13.8 billion of direct gross value added to the UK economy each year. It is therefore crucial that we seek to ensure the safe operation of this industry, working with shipping and port operators and with other maritime nations around the world. One source of risk that we can tackle together is that posed by alcohol consumption, which can impair the ability of mariners to fulfil safety-critical duties.

On the roads, a driver with 100 milligrams or more of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood is seven times more likely to be involved in a fatal motor vehicle crash than is a driver who has not consumed alcohol. If the amount of alcohol is 150 milligrams or more, it is roundly 25 times more likely. The same underlying principle applies on a ship; excessive alcohol consumption increases the risk of error and accident. The current alcohol limits for professional mariners were introduced by the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 and are the same as those applied to motorists in England and Wales—in the case of breath, 35 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres; in the case of blood, 80 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres; and, in the case of urine, 107 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres.

At that time, there was no internationally agreed alcohol limit for mariners. This situation changed in 2010, when the Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping Convention of the International Maritime Organization was amended. For the first time, mandatory alcohol limits for mariners globally were agreed—in the case of breath, 25 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and, in the case of blood, 50 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres. These regulations will bring UK legislation into line with the alcohol limits agreed internationally, with the addition of a limit in the case of urine of 67 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres. In doing so, we will reinforce the importance of these limits in securing the safety of ships, and all those who travel on them.

Furthermore, having common international limits helps to ensure that mariners know what is expected of them wherever they are, and enforcement when people are found to have exceeded those limits, national borders not being visibly marked at sea. The regulations also require the Secretary of State to review the impact of the amendments they make and publish a report of the review’s conclusions. This provision seeks to ensure the continued effectiveness of the alcohol limits set for professional mariners for the long term. Her Majesty’s Government are committed to maintaining safe navigation around these shores and, indeed, wherever ships registered in the UK may sail. These new limits on mariners’ consumption of alcohol are an example of how we are doing this in co-operation with our international partners. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Once again, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and objectives of this order, which again we support. Before the introduction of the International Convention for the Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers in 1978, the training standards for seafarers were established by individual Governments, which almost inevitably meant widely differing standards between different countries. Since it came into force in 1984, the STCW convention has been subject to a number of revisions and this country has supported and implemented all of the previous amendments. The amendments agreed at the STCW Manila conference in 2010 further updated the convention and the code, and included, for the first time, putting mandatory limits on alcohol consumption, instead of an advisory one, for those on watch-keeping duty. These amendments came into force on 1 January 2012, with a five-year transitional period ending on 1 January 2017.

The STCW convention is incorporated into European law, and the new alcohol limits which are the subject of the order we are discussing are covered by a 2012 EU directive. This order changes the UK’s existing alcohol limits for professional mariners to match those now set by the STCW’s watch-keeping standards for fitness for duty by amending Section 81 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003. As the Minister said, the levels are being changed to 25 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath and 50 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood as required by the STCW and EU directive, and to the commensurate figure of 67 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine for consistency.

The Explanatory Memorandum refers to the consultation exercise on the Manila amendments, including the ones covered by this order, and indicates that all the bodies consulted agreed that the alcohol limits for professional mariners should be amended to match those set by the Manila amendments. Why does it appear to have taken over 10 months to seek the approval of this House to an order with which, apparently, all those consulted agreed? The transposition note in respect of this order also states, in respect of Article 2 on transposition, that compliance with the EU directive was required by 4 July 2014. I am assuming that was not the deadline date for approving this order, but perhaps the Minister could say what it was we were required to do by 4 July 2014, and whether we met that date.

The Explanatory Memorandum states in paragraph 4.2 that the limits for alcohol prescribed in Section 81 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 apply to professional mariners only,

“as the provisions relating to non-professional mariners in Section 80 have not been commenced”.

Would the Minister confirm that the STCW convention and code, and the EU directive, apply only to professional mariners and not to non-professional mariners as well? Assuming that to be the case, why have the provisions relating to UK non-professional mariners in Section 80 of the 2003 Act not been commenced for a lengthy number of years? What are the current alcohol limits for non-professional mariners?

The regulations, which, I repeat, we support, deal with a safety issue. Indeed, some shipping companies take a much firmer view on what is an acceptable alcohol limit than those provided for in current or proposed legislation. I am not personally aware of how serious is the problem of breached alcohol limits by professional mariners in UK waters. If the Minister cannot say so immediately, I hope that he might provide some information on how many instances there have been over an appropriate 12-month period of UK professional mariners in UK waters or on UK-registered ships being in breach of the current statutory limits, and how many instances there have been of non-UK professional mariners being in breach of those limits in UK waters.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his support of the Government’s proposals and the regulations before us. He is right that this was decided upon by the 2010 Manila conference. For the first time it is being looked at from an international basis, which is very much the right way forward in ensuring that standards are maintained.

The noble Lord raised the issue of this taking 10 months. This was part of the wider effort to ensure we transposed all the Manila amendments. That has taken some time, even though this part was agreed to by the consultees, as the noble Lord mentioned.

On the 4 July deadline, all other parts of the Manila amendments were transposed by March 2015 in advance of the 4 July deadline. The passing of the regulations will ensure compliance in that respect.

The noble Lord raised the issue of non-professional mariners. Indeed, I raised that question myself in looking at the regulations. At the moment, it applies specifically to professional mariners. It is my understanding that the question of whether these rules should apply to non-professional mariners has been consulted upon. Part of the challenge posed during the consultation in the 2000s—I believe during the time that the noble Lord’s party were in government—was how this would be monitored and, more importantly, applied effectively. Nevertheless, as he rightly pointed out, it is an issue that has not been commenced. As far as the Government are concerned, it is an issue that we will continue to look at as we move forward with the new regulations on professional mariners. Nevertheless, he is right to raise that issue.

The noble Lord also spoke on the evidence of accidents relating to alcohol consumption. The Marine Accident Investigation Branch has identified 19 accidents where alcohol consumption played a significant part since 2009. One led to a fatality and two led to the complete loss of a ship. Many of the others presented a significant risk to human life and the marine environment, where it was fortunate that a worse outcome was avoided.

With those responses, and once again thanking the noble Lord for his support, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the discussion, but the Minister and my noble friend Lord Rosser mentioned non-professional seafarers. I remember debating this issue about 10 years ago. I recall the legislation saying that the limit was the same as the alcohol limit on drink-driving. We had a big discussion at that time on how it was to be enforced. Whether you are a professional or an amateur seafarer, and whether you are in a rubber dinghy or running a cruise ship, you can cause just as much damage. I never got a satisfactory answer—I think that one of my colleagues was the Minister at that time—to how you enforce somebody who is going back to a boat late at night in a rubber dinghy. I think that a policeman is the only person who can make an arrest, but how many policemen are hanging around a small port at closing time?

It is a bit distressing that it is taking so long to become accepted wisdom that you should not be in charge of a boat, whether you are paid to be so or not, if you are under the influence of alcohol. I hope that the noble Lord will take that into account and try to push things forward a bit more.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I said in my remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, this is an area which I myself raised, and I shall certainly take back his comments. As the noble Lord acknowledged, the challenge posed was that of enforcement. However, he is also right to point out that, whether one is a professional mariner or not, the damage that can be caused by alcohol consumption is very much the same as the impact that alcohol consumption can have on our roads. I note the noble Lord’s concerns in that respect.

[Lord Rosser]

I fully take the Minister’s point that the issue of non-professional mariners has been going on for some years, but do the STCW convention and the code apply only to professional mariners or do they apply to both?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

They apply just to professional mariners.

[Lord Greenway (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these regulations, which are a move in the right direction, but I point out, as the Minister has done, that there are still quite a number of instances where alcohol results in either the loss of a ship or the loss of life. Over the years, alcohol has traditionally been the scourge of the seaman. I am glad that we have moved on from the bad old days when even captains were drunk for days on end. However, I must point out the pressures of working at sea today. Working under great stress and with a minimal crew, often you do not have anybody to talk to, so the temptation to drink is still very much there. It is something that I fear is not going to disappear overnight but I think that this is a move in the right direction.

Railways: Swansea to Paddington

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what reasons they have been given by Network Rail for likely delays to the electrification of the Swansea to Paddington rail line, which they had previously indicated had priority status.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to delivering electrification from Paddington to Swansea, which is a priority and part of the largest enhancements programme since the Victorians. Challenges have arisen from electrification, and construction and planning consents have taken longer than expected. That is why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has asked Sir Peter Hendy to look into issues of both deliverability and affordability, and he is due to report in the autumn.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to this being a top priority. Can he explain why this is being delayed? Is it due to the inability of the Government to provide sufficient funding, or is it because they have encountered fundamental technical problems? I am aware that initially, in answers here and in the other place, Ministers said that there would not be a delay. The reference to a delay came last Sunday, from the Secretary of State for Wales.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I reiterate that this programme of electrification is a priority. It is not an issue of funding alone. We are spending £38 billion during the next four to five years. That is the largest investment that has been made since the Victorian age. Challenges have arisen over electrification, to which I alluded in my initial response, but other schemes have been put on pause to ensure that we give this particular scheme the priority that we have emphasised before.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, the term “on pause” is a very vague concept for a government Minister to employ. Is it not clear that this so-called priority of the west coast main line will not see electrification for some time? Would it be wrong of the Opposition to suspect that it is something to do with funding after all? The Minister can probably confirm that the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s northern powerhouse is having the plug pulled on it with the delays to electrification on the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds line and the delays to electrification from the London to Sheffield line. Will the Minister explain just what “on pause” means?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As a general principle in life, it is often good to pause and reflect. I suggest to the noble Lord that it is something he should sometimes deploy. We have asked Sir Peter Hendy to look into the whole issue and the challenges that have arisen around electrification. He will report in the autumn and, after he does, I am sure we will return to this subject. As for the northern powerhouse, the plug is truly in and the switch is turned on.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is it not something more to do with lack of engineering capacity, because we have not done very much electrification in recent years, until this Government came into office?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend speaks from great experience on these matters, not least because he has spoken from this Dispatch Box on the issue of skills. I am delighted that that is one of my specific portfolio responsibilities at the Department for Transport. As noble Lords will know, we have already established the Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy, which I visited only last week, an incredible investment that has come out of the Crossrail project. Later this year, I will be joining the Secretary of State for the opening of the National Training Academy for Rail. Britain has some great challenges as far as the skills agenda is concerned. It is certainly this Government’s view that we not only meet the skills challenge domestically but establish institutions to provide for skills abroad as well.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

The Minister said in his initial Answer that Sir Peter Hendy would look into, among other things, the “affordability” of the project. If funding is not an issue, what on earth is he going to look into?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I must say to noble Lords that I am very impressed by my popularity on the last day of term. The noble Lord nevertheless raises an important point. I mentioned affordability because of course challenges have arisen. That is why it is important to allow Sir Peter to look into all elements of the challenges that have arisen around Network Rail. As I have said already, we will return to this issue in the autumn.

[Lord Wigley]

May I press the Minister further on that term “affordability”, which he chose to use in his first Answer? If affordability is an issue and if the answer is that the project is going to be more expensive than expected, may that in some circumstances rule out the priority that has been given to this line?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the contrary—as both the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have indicated, this project remains a priority. We are working with the Welsh Government on issues relating in particular to the connection between Swansea and Cardiff. We have provided additional funding in that respect. Of course, there are challenges; otherwise, we would not have Sir Peter Hendy reviewing this area.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it reminds me of aircraft carriers not having aeroplanes—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, as perhaps the only Swansea resident in the House, might I say that, whatever the priorities of the Government—and we are well aware of the pressure of the 40% cut in public expenditure—for us in Swansea this is a major matter? It is part of a trio of developments, including the lagoon and the new university campus. I therefore assure the Minister that this project is not only important for Swansea and the region but will send a signal to businessmen that there is life beyond Cardiff.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

There is—I agree with the noble Lord. That is why the Prime Minister said on 24 June that he was committed to the electrification of the line to Swansea.