Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 30th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call Liz Saville Roberts.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Dirprwy Lefarydd.

I rise to speak to new clause 11 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), and to support the amendments in the names of the right hon. Members for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), and of the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald).

Immigrants have always played an integral part in the vitality of our communities, but we have been told, of course, that covid-19 changes everything. That prompts the question: does it change how we handle immigration as much as it does our approach to health and the economy? There has been some interesting mention of the value of the high-skilled jobs that we will expect from this immigration policy, but it is worth taking a step back and considering how things have changed under covid. I understand that 70% of people believe that the crisis has shown the key role of immigrants in running our essential services—the essential services that we have been clapping on the streets for many Thursdays; I think there is another clap here on Sunday—while 64% of people say that they now value so-called low-skilled overseas workers. We are now looking at who provides our services, and how, in a different way.

Surely what we have here is a hostile, inhumane immigration environment, and that is exactly what we should be questioning. Does such an immigration policy reflect the sort of society that we hope to be after covid-19? Plaid Cymru’s proposal in new clause 11 challenges how this Bill presents a radical change in UK immigration policy without allowing a thorough debate about the details of its replacement or the implications—although, as can be seen from the nature of the amendments, there is much concern about those implications. Before we legislate, we should have a proper comprehension of the following: the impact of discriminatory “no recourse to public funds” conditions; the impact of NHS charging; the merits of removing all fees for visas and citizenship applications; and the merits of devolving powers over immigration to our nations, recognising the different needs of the different nations.

Finally—crucially, in the current context—our new clause calls on the Government to investigate the possibility of granting citizenship to all health and social care workers who have given so much during this crisis. A former Government did the right thing and granted citizenship to the Gurkhas. Health and social care immigrant workers have been fighting heroically on two fronts. They have fought on our behalf against the virus; they are now facing having to fight a hostile environment in the Government’s immigration policy. The new clause would be a means to right that wrong; it would reflect the public mood, and I beg the Government to consider adopting it.

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

I support the Bill, which I believe will make our immigration system better, and fairer. Some hon. Members—today, and before today—have bemoaned the fact that the new points-based system will end freedom of movement. I heard the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) say so earlier this afternoon. In fact, there was no such thing as freedom of movement; the concept was an illusion, a chimera, apart from for those who were fortunate enough to live on the continent of Europe.

I benefited from the system—my wife is from Sweden, and for a while I lived and worked in Belgium—but it is a bad system, an outdated model, a discriminatory model, a system that works for Europeans but against the rest of the world. It is unfair. It discriminates against people who want to come here—people whom we want to welcome, people who help us build, run and support our country, who add value to our communities, contribute to our national debate and bring talent, expertise and drive, but who struggle to get entry purely because they are not from Europe. I am glad that we seek to replace that system today.

To those who are already here from Europe in this country, that have made it your home, that have raised families, invested, worked, lived and contributed to our society , we must repeat and repeat that they will always be welcome here.

Domestic Abuse Bill (Tenth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Jess Phillips]

I once again stand here as the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham and the Member for Wyre Forest. I merely speak to the new clauses, although with considerable support from myself behind them. I believe they will wish to discuss them potentially more on Report and so I will withdraw from pushing them to a vote today. I have merely probed in preparation for that. All I would say is that what is happening currently is not working. Whose responsibility that is, is potentially of no mind to the general public. They think that we, in this building, should be sorting it out, but we are not currently assessing properly the marker of strangulation when it comes to homicide. The risk element of what is occurring in every one of our constituencies—how it can be used in a way to stop homicide rather than just being the obvious path towards it—is on all of us as policy makers who have to try to break that link. I am sure this probing will not go away any time soon. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 12

Register for domestic abuse

“(1) The Secretary of State must arrange for the creation of a register containing the name, home address and national insurance number of any person (P) convicted of an offence that constitutes domestic abuse as defined in section 1 of this Act.

(2) Each police force in England and Wales shall be responsible for ensuring that the register is kept to date with all relevant offences committed in the police force’s area.

(3) Each police force in England and Wales shall be responsible for ensuring that P notifies relevant police forces within 14 days if they commence a new sexual or romantic relationship.

(4) A failure to notify the police in the circumstances set out in subsection (3) shall be an offence liable on conviction to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months.

(5) The relevant police force shall have the right to inform any person involved in a relationship with P of P’s convictions for an offence that amounts to domestic abuse as defined in section 1 of this Act.”—(Liz Saville Roberts.)

This new clause would require that any person convicted of any offence that amounts to domestic abuse as defined in clause 1 must have their details recorded on a domestic abuse register to ensure that all the perpetrator’s subsequent partners have full access to information regarding their domestic abuse offences.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 49—Monitoring of serial domestic abuse and stalking offenders under MAPPA—

“(1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 325 (Arrangements for assessing etc risk posed by certain offenders)—

(a) In subsection (1), after ““relevant sexual or violent offender” has the meaning given by section 327” insert ““relevant serial domestic abuse or stalking offender” has the meaning given in section 327ZA;”

(b) In subsection (2)(a), after “offenders” insert “(aa) relevant serial domestic abuse or stalking offenders,”

(3) After section 327 (Section 325: interpretation) insert—

“327ZA Section 325: interpretation of relevant serial domestic abuse or stalking offender

(1) For the purposes of section 325—

(a) a person is a “relevant serial domestic abuse or stalking offender” if the offender has been convicted more than once for an offence which is—

(i) a domestic abuse offence, or

(ii) a stalking offence

(b) “domestic abuse offence” means an offence where it is alleged that the behaviour of the accused amounted to domestic abuse within the meaning defined in Section 1 of this Act

(c) “stalking offence” means an offence contrary to section 2A or section 4A of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.”

This new clause amends the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provides for the establishment of Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements (“MAPPA”), to make arrangements for serial domestic abuse or stalking offenders to be registered on VISOR and be subjected to supervision, monitoring and management through MAPPA.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The new clause calls for the creation of a domestic abuse register to ensure that greater and more consistent protection is provided for potential victims of domestic abuse from individuals who have a track record of abusive behaviour in relationships and whose potential for repeat violent actions warrants the threat of intervention.

A domestic abuse register would provide the vehicle for a shift in focus away from reacting to domestic abuse towards a more preventive approach. We know that repeat offending by perpetrators with violent and controlling histories of abuse is common. A 2016 report published by a Cardiff University professor of criminology states:

“Research demonstrates that the majority of male domestic abuse perpetrators are repeat offenders, with English research producing a figure of 83% within a six-year period.”

Data provided by the Metropolitan police to the London Assembly for its domestic abuse report showed that in the year up to September 2019, there were over 13,600 repeat victims of domestic abuse, and 21% of cases discussed at multi-agency risk assessment conferences in London in 2018 were repeat cases. This sobering fact warrants being addressed clearly in the Bill.

The domestic violence disclosure scheme, or Clare’s law, mentioned in a previous sitting, has been in place since March 2014. It is named after Clare Wood, who was murdered by her ex-boyfriend 11 years ago. It enables preventive action to be taken to protect potential victims of domestic abuse, but its use has been widely questioned by many domestic abuse charities such as Refuge. There are two elements to Clare’s law: the right to ask, which allows individuals or their families to seek further information about a partner’s past; and the right to know, in which the police offer to make a disclosure to an individual who they believe might be at risk through their relationship.

The Government’s 2019 review of the domestic violence disclosure scheme showed that only 55% of 7,252 right-to-know applications, and 40% of 6,196 right-to-ask applications, resulted in disclosures. Those are low percentages, and they give rise to the question: why are so many victims unwilling or unable to engage with the police? The same report revealed that seven out of 43 police forces made no right-to-ask applications in that year. That is problematic. Many abusers evade justice because the onus is on the individual to be suspicious about their new partner’s history. There is an implicit risk that if an individual is told that their partner has no record of domestic abuse, they might be reassured about trusting their partner, but it might be that their crimes were simply not recorded—in other words, that nothing was disclosed on asking.

Individuals with a history of coercive and abusive behaviour towards partners will seek out partners with whom they can repeat such behaviour. To speak plainly, it is predictable that their new partners will often not be people who will consider Clare’s law relevant to their immediate situation. Earlier, we referred to the fact that in a new relationship, people will not be receptive to asking whether their partner will do them harm, or to their mother asking that question of the police. They may very well not be receptive to the police knocking on their door to tell them this information. Although evidently Clare’s law is excellent in and of itself, it warrants our questioning its effectiveness. I am very interested in hearing what the Minister has to say about new clause 12, and about how they are considering how Clare’s law will work in future.

I hope all of us would endeavour to promote shifting the onus away from the victim to the perpetrator. That is precisely why a domestic abuse register is needed. New clause 12 demands that domestic abusers sign a register. This would ensure the wellbeing of victims, and place the responsibility on the offender—as they are on the register, they are of course a proven offender—and on the agencies that are meant to prevent abuse and protect victims from it.

The creation of a domestic abuse register would mean that perpetrators were monitored in the same way as sex offenders, paedophiles and violent offenders, which would allow the police to provide greater protection for victims via a similar process to that used in respect of the violent or sex offender register and the multi-agency public protection arrangements. New clause 49, which I support, proposes monitoring serial domestic abuse and stalking offenders via a register managed by MAPPA. However, importantly, senior police sources who gave evidence to the London Assembly raised concerns about the emphasis that the current register places on sex offenders over violent offenders. Before we shift more on to that mechanism, its effectiveness needs to be reviewed, because we could be looking to use mechanisms that are not proving effective. The point is echoed by the London Assembly, which agrees that a register could vastly improve the way that police officers are able to proactively track and manage the risks presented by the most dangerous perpetrators.

While it is, of course, welcome that the Bill strengthens existing powers with the introduction of domestic abuse protection notices and domestic abuse protection orders, which will give greater protection to victims, the onus remains on the victims, rather than the perpetrator or the authorities. A domestic abuse register would address that. It is not only political institutions, domestic abuse charities and campaigners that are calling for a domestic abuse register, but the very people who are affected by domestic abuse.

In closing, I will give one example. The mother of 17-year-old Jayden Parkinson called for such a register to be kept, in order to track the activities of domestic abuse offenders after her daughter’s former boyfriend, Ben Blakeley, brutally murdered her a day after she told him that she was expecting his first child. It emerged after her death that Blakeley was a serial abuser and had exhibited violent and controlling behaviour towards most of his girlfriends in the past, even pushing one of his former girlfriends down the stairs when she was seven months pregnant.

The case of Jayden Parkinson made it clear that the effective management of domestic abuse calls for a shift to greater proactive risk management. A domestic abuse register would place the onus on the most dangerous domestic abuse offenders to register with the police and to maintain up-to-date details, such as address and relationship status. I know that one of the police’s concerns is capacity—the numbers involved here. Surely, however, with a register and with the facilities enabled by technology, we would be able to reduce much of the pressure on the police in that respect. That would allow police forces to assess the threat posed by offenders in their communities and put in place the required level of proactive policing, or a lower level of monitoring through existing partnership arrangements.

Finally, there is a critical point to make. I referred to the London Assembly and the work being done by the Met, but that has only been done within some of the boroughs covered by the Met. We want a consistency of approach across England, across Wales, and across police forces, and, at the least, I would appreciate a comment from the Minister about a review of how consistency and the shifting of the onus on to the perpetrator and away from the victim can be managed consistently, across all forces and across England and Wales.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Diolch, Ms Buck. I will speak to new clause 49, if that is appropriate now, because it is grouped with the amendment.

Domestic abuse and stalking are the only crimes where a serial abuser is not proactively identified and managed. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the fantastic work of Laura Richards and others, for all their hard work, and their blood, sweat and tears, on new clause 49.

Hollie Gazzard was stalked and murdered by Asher Maslin. He had been involved in 24 previous violent offences: three against Hollie; 12 against an ex-partner; three against his mother; and four against others. Why was Hollie left at risk?

Kerri McAuley was stalked and murdered by Joe Storey. He broke every bone in her face. When she left him, he bombarded her with 177 calls. He had many convictions for abusing many women since the age of 14. Two women had also taken out restraining orders against him. Why were the risks not joined up?

Linzi Ashton was raped, strangled and murdered by Michael Cope. He had strangled two previous partners, but his repeated pattern of abuse towards women was not joined up. Why not?

Justene Reece took her own life. Nicholas Allen coercively controlled Justene and he stalked her relentlessly when she left him. Justene ran out of fight. Allen had been convicted for assault and harassment of other women. However, none of those offences were joined up. He was charged with coercive control, stalking and manslaughter after Justene died. Why?

We are currently in the middle of a global health pandemic, but we are also in the midst of another pandemic: the murder of women. These murders do not happen in a vacuum; these murders do not happen in slow motion. They drip, drip, drip over time on an escalating continuum. Since the lockdown began, 33 women and four children have been brutally murdered.

These offenders are not first-time offenders; no one starts with murder as their index offence. Currently, police rely on victims to report crimes and often it is the victims who are forced to modify and change their behaviour; they flee their homes and they disappear themselves in order to stay safe. This incident-led approach to patterned crimes such as domestic abuse and stalking must be stopped. Women are paying with their lives. It is clear that we need a cultural shift, through law, to ensure that the perpetrator is the focus, and that they must change their behaviour and take responsibility. Serial offenders should be the ones who are tracked, supervised and managed, not the victims.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and the hon. Member for Pontypridd for speaking to the new clauses.

We agree with the underlying objective behind new clause 12. It is of course vital to have the right systems and processes in place to identify and manage serial perpetrators of domestic abuse, and it is unacceptable that a domestic abuse perpetrator—particularly a known convicted offender—should be able to go on to abuse further victims. We therefore recognise the need for robust management of those dangerous offenders. However, we consider that the outcome can be achieved more effectively and, importantly, more safely through other means. As for new clause 49, we consider that existing legislation already provides for the management of the serial domestic abuse and stalking offenders we are concerned about.

Deputy Chief Constable Louisa Rolfe, the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead on domestic abuse, was clear in her oral evidence to the previous Public Bill Committee in October that better use of established police systems is the best way to grip dangerous individuals. She referred to the Bichard inquiry following the tragic deaths in Soham of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, which recommended that information about dangerous perpetrators should not be dispersed over multiple different systems. Her testimony was persuasive, and highlighted the fact that a new, separate register would introduce

“unnecessary complexity cost and, most importantly, risk.”—[Official Report, Domestic Abuse Public Bill Committee, 29 October 2010; c. 27, Q48.]

Furthermore, several witnesses at an oral evidence sitting of this Committee also questioned whether the creation of a new bespoke register was the right way forward. Suzanne Jacob made reference to the recommendations of the Bichard enquiry and Ellie Butt pointed to the vital importance of multi-agency working to manage the risk posed by perpetrators. In addition, Dame Vera Baird advised:

“It is probably better to think in terms of an institution that is already present…than it is to invent another separate way of recording the fact that they are a perpetrator.”—[Official Report, Domestic Abuse Public Bill Committee, 4 June 2020; c. 65, Q157.]

As the Committee will be aware, and as witnesses at the oral evidence sitting highlighted, the police already have systems in place for recording and sharing information about domestic abuse perpetrators. Offenders who have been convicted of stalking or domestic abuse-related offences are captured on the police national computer and, where appropriate, they will also be recorded on the ViSOR dangerous persons database, which enables information to be shared across relevant criminal justice agencies.

Section 327 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 already allows for those domestic abuse and stalking offenders who are assessed as posing a risk of serious harm to the public to be actively risk-managed under MAPPA. Individuals who commit offences listed in schedule 15 to the 2003 Act and who are sentenced to 12 months or more are automatically eligible for management under MAPPA category 2 when on licence. Those offences include domestic abuse-related offences such as threats to kill, actual and grievous bodily harm, and attempted strangulation, as well as stalking offences under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. When their licence ends, offenders can be managed under MAPPA category 3 if they are assessed as posing a risk of serious harm to the public. There is also discretion for other convicted domestic abusers who are assessed as posing a risk of serious harm to be managed under MAPPA category 3. Indeed, operational guidance makes it clear that this should be actively considered in every case.

The Government do, however, recognise the need to strengthen the use of current systems. Work is already under way to review the functionality of the violent and sex offender register, and the College of Policing has issued a set of principles for police forces on the identification, assessment and management of serial or potentially dangerous domestic abuse and stalking perpetrators. Work in this area will be supported by the provision of £10 million in funding for perpetrator interventions, which was announced in the Budget, to promote a better response to perpetrators across all agencies that come into contact with them.

The Bill also provides the police with an additional tool to help improve management of the risk posed by domestic abuse perpetrators. The police will be able to apply for a new DAPO that requires perpetrators who are subject to an order to notify the police of their name and address, and of any changes to this information. That will help the police to monitor the perpetrator’s whereabouts and the risk they pose to the victim. The Bill also includes the power for a DAPO to impose further additional notification requirements, to be specified in regulations that the court may consider on a case-by-case basis. The DAPO provisions include an express power to enable courts to use electronic monitoring or tagging on perpetrators to monitor their compliance with the requirements of the DAPO.

The aim of new clause 12 is to provide police with a statutory power to disclose information about a perpetrator’s offending history to their partner. However, Clare’s law already facilitates that. The domestic violence disclosure scheme relies on the police’s existing common-law powers, which are fit for purpose. The right-to-know element of the scheme provides a system through which the police can reach out proactively and disclose information to a person’s partner or ex-partner about that person’s violent or abusive offending history in order to prevent harm. As we have already debated, clause 64 places guidance for the police on Clare’s law on a statutory footing, which will help to improve awareness and consistent operation of the scheme across all forces.

I am very keen to emphasise—this is a concern that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd has set out—that the burden should not be solely on victims. It is right that a victim can apply for a DAPO or can apply under the right-to-ask scheme, but the police can—indeed, are expected to—take the initiative in appropriate cases to apply for a DAPO or proactively make a disclosure under the right-to-know element of the domestic violence disclosure scheme, as I have just outlined. Given the views of the witnesses from whom we heard in oral evidence to this Committee and its predecessor, and the ongoing work to improve the systems and the MAPPA arrangements that I have set out, I hope hon. Members are reassured, and that the right hon. Lady will feel able to withdraw the new clause.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I thank the Minister for her detailed response. This is a probing amendment, which I am happy to withdraw. The only thing that I want to say comes from the London Assembly, and from cross-border issues arising within the boroughs of the Met. Dauntless Plus, which deals with 600 or so of the most dangerous repeat offenders in London, reaches 1% of repeat offenders. Present arrangements seem not to be achieving what I am sure we would all wish them to achieve. I hope the Minister will keep a close eye on their effectiveness in future. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 17

Local Welfare Provision schemes

“(1) Every local authority in England must deliver a Local Welfare Provision scheme which provides financial assistance to victims of domestic abuse

(2) The Secretary of State must issue guidance on the nature and scope of Local Welfare Provision schemes and review this biannually in consultation with the Domestic Abuse Commissioner and other such individuals and agencies he deems appropriate.

(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must provide local authorities with additional funding designated for Local Welfare Provision, to increase per year with inflation.

(4) For the purposes of this subsection “domestic abuse” is defined in section 1 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2020.”—(Christine Jardine.)

This new clause would allow victims of domestic abuse to access a local welfare assistance scheme in any locality across England.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I would like to apologise to the Committee in advance: as luck would have it, for the first time in two years of printing things too small for me to read, I do not have my glasses with me. Bear with me and I will do my best.

Domestic Abuse Bill (Ninth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 9th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I beg to move amendment 47, in clause 66, page 49, line 42, at end insert—

“(2A) The Secretary of State must issue separate statutory guidance on domestic abuse that also constitutes teenage relationship abuse and such guidance must address how to ensure there are—

(a) sufficient levels of local authority service provision for both victims and perpetrators of teenage relationship abuse,

(b) child safeguarding referral pathways for both victims and perpetrators of teenage relationship abuse.

(2B) The guidance in subsection (2A) must be published within three months of the Act receiving Royal Assent and must be reviewed bi-annually.

(2C) For the purposes of subsection (2A), teenage relationship abuse is defined as any incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive, threatening behaviour, violence or abuse, which can encompass, but is not limited to psychological, physical, sexual, economic and emotional abuse, including through the use of technology, between those aged 18 or under who are, or have been in a romantic relationships regardless of gender or sexual orientation.”

This amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State to publish separate statutory guidance on teenage relationship abuse. The statutory guidance would cover not just victims of teenage domestic abuse but extend to those who perpetrate abuse within their own teenage relationships.

This cross-party amendment addresses teenage relationship abuse. It would place a duty on the Secretary of State to issue separate statutory guidance on how to support teenagers who either experience or may display abusive behaviour in their relationships. To be clear, the amendment does not advocate lowering the age limit for domestic abuse or criminalising anyone. We have to acknowledge that domestic abuse is not like a driving licence or a coming of age, because we know that it does happen to people before they turn 16. The amendment acknowledges that teenage abuse is a reality, and calls for the production of separate statutory guidance and recognition that young people, whether victims or perpetrators, need special referral pathways and service provisions that are appropriate for them and for their age.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will greet the fact that this amendment would align English and Welsh legislation with safeguarding procedure in Wales, which presently acknowledges peer-on-peer abuse. That consistency of approach would be advantageous in enabling better service support to follow on from it.

[Christine Jardine]

I thank the hon. Lady for that excellent and very well-made point. If the Bill is to be as successful as everybody wants it to be, this amendment provides an opportunity to take early action to support and encourage young people away from a path that could lead to an abusive or an abused life. It is also very much in the spirit of much of the evidence we heard during our first sitting and much of what we have said in this room about recognising the impact that domestic abuse has on young people and the need to protect them from it throughout their lives.

The Bill in its current form defines domestic abuse as taking place between two persons above the age of 16—as I have said, we can recognise that people do not miraculously change when they are 16—and yet the evidence shows that to define it in those terms is to miss out vulnerable, troubled and an abused section of our young people who are unseen, unheard and, as a result, unsupported.

--- Later in debate ---

The second effect of the amendment would be to strengthen the status of the legislation by seeking to ratify the Istanbul convention, which this country signed eight years ago last week but has still not ratified. For so many women’s organisations in this country, that delay is inexplicable.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Given that this is a landmark piece of legislation, I am sure that many Members present share my concern about the fact that we are failing to ratify the Istanbul convention with it. Surely we should be taking the chance to do so through this amendment, as well as a measure we will be discussing tomorrow.

[Christine Jardine]

I thank the right hon. Lady, and absolutely agree. We have a number of opportunities in this Committee to ratify the convention through this Bill. It is an international women’s rights treaty that this country signed, yet it is one of a handful of countries that still has not taken the steps the convention demands. Recognising misogyny as a hate crime would go some way towards achieving the goals of the treaty.

I will step back for a minute to explain why we should record misogyny as a hate crime, and what exactly I mean by a hate crime. Hate crime is defined as criminal behaviour where the perpetrator is motivated by hostility, or demonstrates hostility, towards a protected characteristic of the victim. Intimidation, verbal abuse, intimidating threats, harassment, assault, bullying and damaging property are all covered. Hate crime law is rooted in a need to protect people who are targeted because of their identity, and is defined as

“Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on”

a protected characteristic. Currently, those characteristics are defined as disability, transgender status, race, religion and sexual orientation under the relevant sections of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and the Criminal Justice Act 2003, and allow prosecutors to apply for an uplift in sentencing.

Where does misogyny fit into that and affect it? Women and girls from a black, Asian and minority ethnic background often experience hate crimes based on multiple characteristics, and if we do not take misogyny into account, we do not truly get an intersectional understanding of the crime. Sex was the motivation for more than half of the hate crimes women reported last year; age was the second most common, followed by race. Some women may be victims of a hate crime because of their ethnicity or religion, and also because they are women. Some 42% of BAME women aged 14 to 21 reported unwanted sexual attention at least once a month. Many women and girls with intellectual disabilities are also disproportionately subjected to street harassment and sexually based violence, for the dual reason that they are disabled and that they are women. Our laws have to protect them equally, and they cannot do so effectively while misogyny is a blind spot.

I have a personal theory. I suspect that all the women in this room are like me, and have always rejected the idea that they are not equal. That is how we come to be here: we do not accept the premise that we are not equal. I grew up in a household with three daughters, and had no reason to believe that we were not equal to anyone else. I have often had the opposite problem, actually. My confidence was taken for aggression that was not appropriate in a woman, because women are not aggressive, apparently. I remember once when the BBC was tackling sexual harassment problems among staff, it launched an assertiveness programme for women. I asked my boss if I could do this assertiveness programme. I could not understand why my colleagues all laughed when I came out. They asked, “How did it go?” I told them that when I asked, “Gordon, is it alright if I do this assertiveness programme?”, he said, “I wouldn’t dare say no.”

Many of us cannot understand how women come to be the victims of misogyny unless it actually happens to us. Although we might think that we are equal, we have all witnessed misogyny everywhere and been the victim of it. We might cope with it, but we have been the victim of it. Harassment and abusive behaviour are often linked to misogyny, which comes from deep-rooted contempt for women and the understanding that we should behave in a certain way, and the belief that if we do not do so, it is acceptable to slap us or abuse us.

I am sure we do not need a reminder, but if we did, Friday’s front page of a national tabloid newspaper reminded us all quite firmly: contempt for women, an in-built hatred, misogyny that says it is okay to slap us, bully us or harass us in the street because we are women.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

The Law Commission, in all its reviews, is incredibly thorough and of course independent. How long it takes is, I have to say as a Minister, sometimes a little bit frustrating, but that is because it is so thorough, so I cannot criticise the commission for that. I would prefer the commission to do its work so that we have a consistent body of evidence that I hope will enable the Government to draw conclusions as to the adequacy of the existing arrangements, and take steps from there.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I wonder by which instrument the hon. Member for Edinburgh West and I might seek to ask the Government whether they will be implementing any recommendations from the Law Commission.

[Victoria Atkins]

I confess that I had not given thought to that particular detail. Far be it from me to suggest to ingenious Back Benchers how they can hold the Government to account. As I have said, we have the Law Commission review under way, and when the commission has reported, we will, of course, in due course publish our response to that review.

Domestic Abuse Bill (Fifth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 10th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

Even though I have worked with the police force for years and I am sometimes critical of the police, I was genuinely surprised. The reality is that, if someone is a victim who is not at this moment at direct risk—nobody is holding a knife to their throat with a breach of this order; it might be a Facebook post or involve writing off to their kid’s school—my police force does not currently have the resource to respond really quickly.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Very briefly, I want to take the opportunity to describe the rural experience.

[Jess Phillips]

I am not suggesting that it is not—

[Liz Saville Roberts]

They are different in different ways. There is immense pressure in terms of population, but the rural experience is that there might well be a desired staffing level on the police of six to cover the whole of north-west Wales. It is physically impossible to reach people within the hour.

[Jess Phillips]

That is a deeply important thing. For my constituents, it would take four minutes to drive across if there was no traffic, so that is not such an issue. It will definitely lead to victimisation by different means. It also has to be added on to the police resource, for when they see a call and have an immediate issue they need to deal with, because the order has potentially been breached, and they are going to have to drive 50 miles.

I am not suggesting for a second that the police do not want to act on these calls. I think that they do. Every police officer I meet—this has definitely changed over the last 10 years—deeply cares about domestic abuse and wants their force to be brilliant at tackling it. I am just concerned.

What I do not want to happen with the DAPO is for it to have the same reputation as all the other orders among victims and victims’ organisations. All the other orders are basically, “Isn’t that nice? I’ve got this piece of paper,” apart from an occupation order, which is given vanishingly rarely. If we were to sit down with a group of victims, they would say, “What was the point of it?”. I do not want the DAPO to have that. The inclusion of abuse and the inclusion of criminality will go some way to allaying that fear, but without resource, it will be very difficult.

The Joint Committee clearly shared some of our concerns. Its report noted:

“Particular concerns were that the proposed new notices and orders did not ‘cure’ the difficulties seen in the operation of the current Domestic Violence Protection Notices and Orders and the practical workings of the DAPO scheme had not been considered, or funded, sufficiently.”

I give the Minister her due; that is from a year ago and a lot of consideration has gone into it since.

The Joint Committee also found that the use of the existing model of DVPNs and DVPOs—different in flavour, if not in name—by police forces across England and Wales a year after they were rolled out nationally was “patchy.” We are not just referring to breaches; this is about whether they are even given out. I am concerned about resources for dealing with breaches, but there is quite a lot of concern about resources for the orders being given out in the first place.

The Joint Committee noted:

“Numbers ranged from three DVPNs and three DVPOs in Cambridgeshire”—

where there is either no domestic violence, or they are not giving them out properly—

“to 229 DVPNs and 199 DVPOs in Essex”.

Bravo to Essex! The majority of forces submitted figures between 10 and 100.

The Joint Committee continued:

“A review of the police response to domestic abuse by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services”—

I noticed the Minister also struggled to say that earlier; it needs a better acronym—

“in 2017 found: ‘Many forces are still not using DVPOs as widely as they could, and opportunities to use them are continuing to be missed. Over half of the forces that were able to provide data—

that were able to provide data does not speak to many—

“on the use of DVPOs reported a decrease in the number of DVPOs granted per 100 domestic abuse related offences in the 12 months to 30 June 2016 compared to the 12 months to 31 March 2015.’”

Those comments speak to my concerns about the capacity of the police, rather than their desire.

I very much hope that the inclusion of the term “abuse” rather than “violence” will act to massively improve the numbers—I really hope that we are proven right on that—and that the act of criminalising has a similar effect on the uptake and usefulness of DAPOs. However, I seek from the Minister an understanding of how and at what intervals that will be assessed.

A number of organisations, from the perspective of both the victim and the perpetrator, have expressed concerns about the new scheme and the act of criminalisation. I am sure that some minds will be put to rest if a framework for review and possible action plans from the evidence of such reviews were put in place—the Minister has spoken about a two-year review in specific areas. For example, if there is limited use in a certain police force after a year and it is identified that that is because of training deficits—that is what it usually is—action plans could then be put in place to ensure a remedy.

Some concerns about the criminalisation element would certainly be allayed if we have an idea about exactly how the pilot is going to work and what actions will be taken to remedy any possible deficits.

There are two potentials. In one of the pilot areas, they may not do it well, and we could all say, “Maybe DAPOs don’t work,” and go and look at something else. Alternatively, pilot areas could put a lot of effort and resources in because of the very nature of being pilot areas. Fair play to all of them, but when we scale that up to the Metropolitan police, the West Midlands police or a police force in a completely rural area, for example, and the scheme is ongoing, there is a concern that we need to ensure that we are reviewing it constantly and pushing for it to work.

I want to the order to work, and the sector wants it to work. I could be glib about people rolling their eyes when an does not work, but that tells victims that the police do not care, even if that is not the case. If someone rings the police and they do not act on a breach, the view is, “It’s because they don’t care about me.” That will stop that person going forward again in the future. That demoralises the whole system, and we cannot have that.

I welcome the fact that domestic abuse protection orders may be applied for without victims’ consent—by the police, specialist agencies and third parties, with the consent of the court. That will end a process that can be very onerous on victims, both administratively and, much more keenly, emotionally. As the Joint Committee highlighted,

“the nature of domestic abuse is such that pressure not to take action against the perpetrator will often be overwhelming and it would significantly weaken the protective effect of the orders if only victims were able to apply for them.”

I cannot sing the praises of that enough.

I turn now to some of the concerns raised by police about the cost of the DAPO application. We welcome the Government’s assurances that no victim will have to pay any costs. I have seen incidences, in times of austerity, where local authority partnership boards moved from systems for application of civil orders, where there was no cost to a victim for application, to a system where victims have been asked for large sums to apply for various orders. Some were asked for thousands of pounds in fees to keep them and their children safe—or, as it turned out, partially safe. It is welcome news that there will be no cost to the victim in this new regime.

Currently, however, an application for a DVPO costs the police £205—admittedly, that is under the current system—and a contested hearing costs £515. In evidence to the Joint Committee, Rights of Women explained:

“the police will seek a costs order against the respondent, which will only be granted when the application is successful. It is unclear how many costs orders are made following applications for DVPOs, and, most pertinently, how much money is actually recovered from respondents when costs orders are made. The National Audit Office report from the summer of 2011 concluded that as much as £1.3bn was owed in court fines, prosecutor costs and other payments arising from court proceedings.”

I especially like the bit at the end of a court hearing, when we talk about the money. It is so academic, as hardly any of it will be paid, but I often enjoy that moment in court.

To date, police forces have not received any additional funding for DVPOs. Olive Craig, legal officer at Rights of Women, told the Joint Committee:

“the organisation had been told by police officers, victims, and frontline domestic violence support staff that one of the reasons they did not use these orders was because they were seen as ‘too expensive’.”

It has been the concern of many specialists that courts will not want to be seen as being draconian, so courts may be less likely to grant DAPOs in the first place, especially now, with the criminalisation element.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

The hon. Gentleman raises a sensible point. There will be moments where an officer has to judge the situation as it is presented to her or him. We will be issuing statutory guidance and, as with the statutory guidance on the Bill, that will very much be in consultation with the commissioner and frontline charities.

These sorts of decisions have to be made regularly by officers. During the current crisis, officers are making decisions about whether they visit certain premises to check that people are okay and the potential impact of that. There will be difficult decisions, but we will very much engage with people in a transparent way to make sure that the guidance is in a good place before it is issued formally.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

A point that has been raised with me is that training in domestic abuse for junior police officers is often much more thorough than that which their senior officers have experienced, and that, as well as guidelines, specific training for those officers who will be making the decisions could be very useful.

[Victoria Atkins]

That is not the case with all senior officers. Deputy Chief Constable Louisa Rolfe, who is the NPCC lead on domestic violence, is a very senior officer and an absolute expert. I take the point that officers at different stages in their career will have different levels of experience and training. I am sure the guidance will help address that so that we have a wealth and diversity of experience in the decision-making process.

Domestic Abuse Bill (Fourth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I beg to move amendment 29, in clause 2, page 2, line 24, at end insert—

“(h) they live, or at the time of the abuse lived, in the same household.”

This amendment would ensure that victims living with an abuser in the same household, for example as a flat share, are considered to be “personally connected”.

This is obviously a broader amendment than that of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley, and I am aware that the Minister has made some response, which I will try to address.

I have two main points. I was on the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill last year and this is one of its recommendations—I will refer to that in a moment. Secondly, “personally connected” is a term that is used in the legislation in Wales and I have found it very interesting—I hope it is interesting for others as well—to make the comparison between the legislation in Wales and that which we are creating here today, and to be aware of how those two pieces of legislation sit together.

The report from the Commission on Justice in Wales, led by Lord John Thomas, came out in October 2019. We have a legislature in Wales alongside the legislation that we make in similar areas in Westminster, and the growing effect of the divergence of legislation needs to be considered, particularly the impact on the ground —on victims and perpetrators. The report from the commission—chaired by Lord John Thomas, previously of the Supreme Court—was commissioned by the Welsh Government, but we should be alert to the effects on justice in Wales, particularly in legislation such as this Bill where we already have legislation in a similar area in Wales, although with a very different effect.

Amendment 29 would insert those who live, or who at the time of the abuse lived, in the same household into the definition of those who are considered to be personally connected. Although we have voted, I was supportive of amendments 48 and 49. As the Bill stands, people who live in the same household but who do not have an intimate relationship are not considered to be personally connected.

There is an interesting golden thread, to use a phrase that has already been picked up on: we are using the phrase domestic abuse, but at the same time we are dealing with relationship abuse and how those two issues sit together, because they evidently do not merge entirely together—nor do they in the concept that we are dealing with here. It is important that we tease out the differentiations and that we do not get caught into assuming that a certain term means one thing when perhaps it means something else. We should be very aware of whether there are individuals we intend to safeguard in the legislation who otherwise fall outside of it.

First, I must say clearly that the purpose of my amendment is not to add into the legislation a requirement for the victim to live in the same household as the perpetrator in order to be protected. Rather, the amendment seeks to ensure that victims of abuse inflicted by a housemate in the same domestic environment as them, which might be a friend, a sibling or a cousin, would be protected in addition to those who are protected here, to ensure that we cover that environment-specific case.

There were relevant recommendations from the Joint Committee; I will just refer to them again, because I think that will enable me to refer to some of the points that the Government have made in the meantime. The Joint Committee recommended that the Government

“reconsider including the ‘same household’ criterion in its definition of relationships within which domestic abuse can occur. This landmark Bill must ensure that no victim of domestic abuse will be denied protection simply because they lack the necessary relationship to a perpetrator with whom they live.”

The Joint Committee recognised that

“abuse of disabled people by their ‘carers’”,

which we discussed earlier,

“often mirrors that seen in the other relationships covered by the Bill. We conclude that abuse by any carer towards the particularly vulnerable group should be included in the statutory definition. We share the concerns of our witnesses, however, that, even with the ‘same household’ criterion included in the definition of ‘personally connected’, paid carers, and some unpaid ones, will be excluded from the definition of domestic abuse.”

The Joint Committee therefore recommended that the Government

“review the ‘personally connected’ clause with the intention of amending it to include a clause which will cover all disabled people and their carers, paid or unpaid, in recognition of the fact this type of abuse occurs in a domestic situation.”

I am aware that the Minister has already referred to some of these matters. She touched on the Care Act 2014; just as an aside, and at the risk of repeating this all the time, I am not sufficiently familiar with the Care Act to be able to disentangle those areas that apply to England and those areas that apply to England and Wales, but I ask her at least to consider whether there are any possible gaps or loopholes in which there could be confusion of expectation. There may well not be, but one of my roles here is to ensure that we have checked that, care being devolved in Wales.

The only other point that I will make in relation to what the Joint Committee raised is the need for consistency of approach. Again, when we refer to previous legislation, or legislation that already exists, one of the alarm bells set off in my mind with this domestic abuse legislation is that what we are attempting to do here is to provide clarity and consistency. We have seen exactly the same issue with the range of sexual abuse offences. The fact that something exists in law does not mean that it is applied consistently across forces or even perhaps across local authorities. We need to be alert to ensure that what is put into this legislation is applicable and is experienced by victims consistently, as is intended. It is important to ensure that.

I have a few further points. As I mentioned earlier, this issue is particularly important when it comes to the victims and potential victims living in Wales, as definitions within Welsh legislation vary from what is included in the Bill. The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, in its definition of associated people, includes people who live or who have lived in the same household, so a different definition is being applied in Wales.

That is particularly important, since this is something we may well have seen at this time of covid-19 and also with young people, because younger households are much more likely to live in house shares and to rent privately. When all the bedrooms within a single house are occupied—in a terraced house, for example—with everyone sharing a bathroom and kitchen, that is a domestic situation in which abuse may occur. The landlord may well live there. There is a question about whether the legislation is missing something there that we might wish to capture. The 2019 figures from the Office for National Statistics illustrate that people aged between 25 and 34 now account for 35% of households in that sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The right hon. Lady has touched on a contemporary issue that has been happening throughout this crisis. It gives the Committee the opportunity to express our sincere gratitude to the frontline police officers and other statutory bodies who are doing so much to re-tool themselves during the crisis to ensure that they identify potential victims and people who are in danger of suffering domestic abuse, to offer support in really creative ways. We offer them our thanks. Will she join me in imploring the Minister and the enforcement agencies to learn from the experience that has been gained from this crisis, and to look at ways of putting that learning into live enforcement services, so that when we recover, we do not go back to business as usual, but aspire to do better?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. In the legislation, the considerations will be about how to apply that and how to do so consistently. The training that is available for police officers and other support bodies will be critical. At this time, I beg that we make the legislation as future-proof as possible, because we have experienced something that is different to how the Bill was drafted. We must consider that now; we do not want to be playing catch-up.

To come back to my point, although I entirely understand that there is a debate between what we mean by the location of the abuse—in the household—and relationship abuse, we have found ourselves in our households far more.

[Jess Phillips]

On people who live together, we must not assume that we are talking only about young, trendy people in Brighton who live together in a house share. In my constituency, there are very vulnerable people who live in houses in multiple occupation for years on end, with almost no support from the structure that is meant to support them. Landlords often receive the extra housing benefit without providing any of the support we would hope to see. We are talking about—I see it every day in my constituency—cases of very vulnerable people who may have suffered a pattern of abuse living alongside people who, also because of their vulnerabilities, are very likely to be abusing them.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

That broader awareness of what constitutes a household has been brought home to us in the past few months, as well as the nature of the tensions that can exist in such households. The thing that comes to my mind is younger households where house-sharing is common. One can imagine those are quite small households. But this applies more broadly than that.

If we were to assume that the nature of the coercive or abusive relationship is based on whether there is a sexual relationship between the two individuals in a formal sense, we would close our eyes to the wider experience and we should consider whether we should capture them in this legislation. That also applies where there are informal sexual relationships, which can be imposed on people to a degree in certain household environments.

I am aware that we have already voted on the specific aspect of this in relation to people and their carer. I would be grateful if the Minister would consider our experiences in the past few months and the inherent tension between whether we are looking at this on the basis of household—where someone is physically located—and those people who are intimately related, or whether this is an opportunity to capture a wider question.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

This amendment and the previous amendment speak to a common motivation to protect against an abuse that takes place in our society among many abusers of different relations of the powerful against the weak. I know that we are all motivated by a desire to address that.

I was a magistrate in a general court for several years before specialist domestic abuse courts were even envisaged and came into being. I saw a whole range of different contexts of abuse, but I wanted to be a part of the domestic abuse courts because it spoke to something special: a specific context of abuse based on a very intimate relationship. I do not want to dilute that, because that direction of travel—to have fought so hard to get recognition for domestic abuse as the uniquely invidious and insidious crime that it is—is something I do not want to go against.

While I completely empathise with the desire to prevent abuse wherever we find it, I believe that the direction of travel that is encapsulated in this landmark Bill is where we want to go. That is why I would resist attempts to dilute that aim, context and direction of travel.

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—gosh, I took a deep breath before trying to say that. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford has summed it up beautifully, if I may say so. I absolutely understand the motivation for the right hon. Lady’s amendment.

As we were saying earlier, exploitation takes many forms. I know that the hon. Member for Hove has shone a bright light on the concept of sex for rent. I keep coming back to this golden thread of the relationship. I think everyone understand that that is what the concept of domestic abuse centres around, so that is the approach we have taken with the definition.

We considered the Joint Committee’s recommendations very carefully. Our concern was that including “household” in the definition may have the unintended consequence of diverting people’s attention from those relationships where people do not live together. I am sure we can all think of examples of incredibly abusive relationships in which the two people in that relationship do not happen to live together.

I will give an example: I visited a fantastic women’s centre a month ago, which has independent sexual violence advisers and independent domestic violence advisers working together. The IDVAs could identify certain serial perpetrators in their local area who were in relationships with not one woman, but with several women at the same time. By definition, that perpetrator could not live with all of the women simultaneously, but was visiting them and conducting his abuse against many women at the same time. I am anxious that we do not inadvertently, with absolutely the right intentions, divert people’s attention away from the central purpose of the Act. We have also tried to ensure in clause 2 that where a relationship has ended, that is still considered within the definition, because we are alive to the fact of abuse after a relationship has ended.

Finally, we would not want to broaden the definition to such an extent that it covers areas, such as landlords and tenants, that I do not believe people think of when they think about domestic abuse. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford has said, it has taken us an awfully long time to get to where we are, and I hope we can work on ensuring that victims who are in abusive relationships have our attention and focus. These other forms of exploitation should also have focus—just not in this piece of legislation.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I appreciate the Minister’s response. I am slightly concerned about the fact that she talked about one man with a number of relationships with different people, and then a relationship that is over. There is something slightly contradictory about that.

Because of the times in which we are living through, our awareness of the impact of domestic abuse and the misery caused by it, and the awareness of our police forces, will have changed since this Bill was originally drafted. I therefore leave the Minister with a sincere plea to be alert to the fact that we need to learn on our feet very quickly.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Appointment of Commissioner

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Peter Kyle]

It is a privilege and honour to serve under your chairship, Ms Buck. This is the first time I have served under you, and it is an experience I am looking forward to. I have heard you are a very tough taskmaster.

I also pay tribute to the two Ministers present, who I know both want to make this the best legislation it can possibly be. I have worked with both Ministers in other areas, particularly the safeguarding Minister, the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle. She might not remember this, but the very first Bill Committee I sat on was one for which she was on the Back Benches: it was the Public Bill Committee on the Investigatory Powers Bill in 2015-16, so I am familiar with being in a room full of lawyers and people with legal backgrounds when considering these kinds of Bills. At that time, the hon. Lady and I were both on the Back Benches, and if I remember rightly she was the first of the 2015 intake to go to into Government. Here we are again on a Bill Committee together, both as Front Benchers, which is an honour for both of us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jess Phillips]

I note that we are having a wide-ranging debate, and jumping from one clause to another, and I will take some advantage of the fact that the clause is about the general functions of the commissioner to give some general, broad input on this clause and some of those to follow.

As has already been said by pretty much everyone —probably even including myself, although it is hard to remember now—we very much welcome Nicole’s appointment, and we welcome the invention of a commissioner full stop. In fact, I remember not knowing this building at all well and being brought down here, when the now Victims’ Commissioner was a Member of Parliament. The Labour party was running a women’s manifesto-building session, in one of the rooms here for victims of domestic violence and those who worked with them. It was long before I even stood for the council, and I just came to this building and gave evidence. One of the things we pushed for then, probably in about 2011, was the creation of a commissioner, so it is incredibly welcome that we are now starting to see those powers come into play. I hope that they will be a catalyst for change in domestic abuse policy. They will certainly allow us to find gaps—or, as the Minister has outlined, over-supply—and, more importantly, solutions to fill those gaps.

In the Joint Committee report published on 14 June, a number of concerns were raised by witnesses and the Committee about the role of the commissioner. Those concerns were also raised at the aforementioned evidence session. Today, I still think that some of them have not been allayed. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove has gone over some of those issues, but there are a few things I wanted to pick up specifically around the commissioner’s general functions.

The domestic abuse commissioner has the potential to effect real change in the way domestic abuse services operate. However, for that potential to be realised, we must first ensure that the Bill is amended to resolve the substantial concerns that could stymie the commissioner’s remit in terms of independence, resource and power. We have laid some of the amendments to do that.

With regard to the remit, which is in clause 6, my first point is not a complaint but rather a comment as to the operation of the commissioner’s role and how best she can make a positive contribution to combat domestic abuse. Notwithstanding comments from witnesses to the Joint Committee and the subsequent recommendations, the Government have made it clear that the role of the commissioner and the Bill are limited to domestic abuse and do not cover other forms of violence against women and girls. One notes from our debates earlier around the definition of domestic abuse that the words “sexual abuse” are within that definition. That has not been ignored. Around 56% of all reported rapes happen within people’s marriages. One of the most amazing facts—I say this to schools when I go and visit—is that raping your wife was only made illegal in 1991. So, John Major, that and the cones hotline are things to be very proud of.

The level of sexual violence in domestic abuse cases is shocking, and there is some concern about the functions of the commissioner, whose role is—to be very purist—about domestic abuse. What is her interaction to be with rape and sexual violence organisations such as Rape Crisis England and Wales, for example? That is yet to be ironed out.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I just want to draw attention to some of the subsections in clause 6 and the interaction between the domestic abuse commissioner and the Senedd. I can see complications in exactly that area, and it needs clarity.

--- Later in debate ---

Advisory Board

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I beg to move amendment 28, in clause 11, page 7, line 7, at end insert

“in England;

(aa) at least one person appearing to the Commissioner to represent the interests of victims of domestic abuse in Wales;”.

This amendment would require representation for domestic abuse victims in Wales, ensuring that both the interests of domestic abuse victims in England and Wales are equally addressed.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ms Buck. Amendment 28 would protect the interests of domestic abuse victims in both England and Wales as it recognises that the experiences and challenges faced by victims in both countries are in some respects different. It endeavours to smooth the jagged edge of the victim’s experience of justice in the context of devolution, as was mentioned earlier. The amendment calls for at least one person from Wales to be given a position on the commissioner’s advisory board in order to adequately address the specific concerns of domestic abuse victims in Wales. I note that it is the commissioner’s role to appoint board members. None the less, the Bill already specifies six roles of members, of which there are four that specify England. I also note the Joint Committee’s recommendation on a duty to consult, and Wales deserves a mention, given that there are so many other roles—six roles—already specifically mentioned, four of which specify England.

Although the designate domestic abuse commissioner has already done excellent work in co-operating with organisations in Wales, my amendment would formalise the relationship. I spoke earlier to the domestic abuse commissioner on this matter, and I welcome her actions so far. She has been in regular contact, as many of us are, with Welsh Women’s Aid and many other organisations on covid-19. She is intent on appointing a member of staff who will be able to specialise in Wales matters, but the specific point of ensuring a voice from victims ideally in Wales, but certainly a voice from Wales on the board, is critical, given that this is a piece of England and Wales legislation and we do, as we have already heard, have legislation specifically on this matter in Wales. I beg the Minister sincerely to consider putting this in the Bill, regardless of what she said previously about the commissioner’s role to appoint the board. It is specified for the other roles and it is becoming apparent that the interplay between England and Wales is quite complicated, so I think that for this to be effective Wales deserves representation to be specified on the board.

We also heard about the importance of differentiating our response to domestic abuse in both England and Wales from the CEO of Welsh Women’s Aid, Sara Kirkpatrick, in last Thursday’s evidence session. She rightly pointed out that clarity is incredibly important in the context of devolution, especially when it comes to understanding what funding is devolved and what is not, and how services are then actually available. That can have an impact on survivors and victims in Wales.

Ms Kirkpatrick made the point that Wales is physically different from England, in that our population overall is more rural. We must therefore provide frontline services to victims of domestic abuse that are adapted to the specific nature and geography of rural communities. I say that representing a constituency such as Dwyfor Meirionnydd, in which we do not even have a court any longer. The nearest court can be 60 miles away from people; I know that will be true for other Members here. That is the true experience for people on the ground in Wales, particularly those who are distanced from the southern, urban areas. Welsh Women’s Aid published a brief in the last month on rurality and domestic abuse, which includes a significant analysis of specific issues faced by survivors in rural communities in Wales.

I am aware that time is going by, so I will touch on some points, in part to have them on the record but also to reflect the fact that Wales has specific issues. The first point is that services are not always available to Welsh speakers through the medium of their first language. Particularly in my constituency, many service users who come into contact with public services are used to receiving their services through the medium of Welsh. It is a matter of rights for the individual, but it is also what people expect day to day. That is a significant area and evidently unique to Wales.

I will touch briefly on the matters that came up in the Welsh Women’s Aid report, “Are you listening and am I being heard?”. On the ability of survivors to access and engage with services, there is a fear within rural areas that if people gain access to services where they may well know the people who are providing them, they do not know how confidential those are likely to be. That in itself creates a reluctance to come forward to people such as the local police officer, the GP, court officials and other community leaders. If people are reluctant to come forward, how do we overcome that in a way that is accessible to them?

I touched on the matter of courts. Public transport issues are also a real issue in areas of Wales. In this age of digital by default, broadband access in certain areas of rural Wales is also patchy.

[Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I sympathise with many of the points the right hon. Lady is making, but some of the areas and obstacles that she has highlighted are issues that are relevant in England and Scotland. Why is the experience of a Welsh victim so singularly different, when those characteristics are the same in England, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Indeed. The experience of rurality will be common across other nations of the United Kingdom, but overlying that is the fact that we have a separate legislature in Wales that is producing separate legislation. We want to make sure that with the different range of provision, interested bodies and services providers, we are none the less cutting through to survivors, victims and perpetrators, in the way that is intended, and that the fact that we have a difference between England and Wales is not missed out. If we can specify four roles on the board for specifically English aspects, I cannot imagine the justification for Wales not to be represented there as well, with its separate legislation.

In the report. points are made about hospital services being provided at a distance, as well as legal practice and provision. The reality of the experience of survivors is that access to legal services is more challenging in Wales than in many areas of England, for no specific reason, as is access to services for survivors who have fled from abusive relationships and been placed in rural areas. This is often combined with the fact that survivors do not know the community around them, and that certain properties will be known to be places where survivors are placed. We have to be very careful how we handle that.

[Jess Phillips]

I am not sure whether this is just by virtue of Birmingham being relatively near Wales, but in refuge accommodation services the connection between women moving across borders between Wales and Birmingham services is very common, for example women from Cardiff or Swansea were crossing the border to be housed in Birmingham and vice versa for safety reasons. I am sure that is one of the right hon. Lady’s concerns: how we can ensure this all works well together.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Without mentioning them, there are certain communities in my constituency where private landlords are very inclined to take people in from public service sources in England, and from those individuals’ experience, they are used to one set of services being available to them in one place, and they find themselves receiving an entirely different set of services, often with their children going into Welsh medium education, in another. Survivors have to undertake the experience of that difference.

I am grateful for the opportunity to explain some of the experiences and scenarios on the ground in my own constituency and other places in Wales, but the fundamental thing that is crying out to be remedied here is the fact that it is possible for this legislation to specify certain roles on the advisory board. Alongside the fact that the Joint Committee recommended that consultation be undertaken with Wales, I beg the Minister to consider that it would be deeply appropriate to include Wales in this, because, otherwise, we will set the domestic abuse commissioner up to be falsely accused of not taking into consideration aspects that we have considered in this place, and this would be an obvious remedy to do that. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for her contribution, which I support. I am always one for standing up and giving a voice to Wales and I feel that Wales desperately needs a voice in the Bill, which straddles both nations and they should be equally represented.

One in four women in Wales experience domestic violence at the hands of a partner in their lifetime. They need a voice on this advisory board too. We have seen the ground-breaking legislation in Wales. Thanks to the Welsh Labour Government, we have the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. We have already discussed the importance of the legislation aligning with the devolved Government, so that we do not have any gaps and inconsistencies, which people can fall through.

It is vital that Wales has a voice and is represented. We know that the domestic abuse commissioner has an effective consultative remit with survivors and services in Wales, to ensure there is an understanding of the context as to how devolved and non-devolved competency areas interact, but this must be done effectively to ensure that the board has representation from Wales, so that non-devolved survivors and services are given that voice. Currently the Bill only allows representation for voluntary organisations in England and that must be changed. I fully support this amendment and I urge members across the House to do so. I know there are hon. Members from Wales who would want Wales to be represented at all levels in the Bill, so I urge them to support this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is about respecting the devolution settlement and being alive to different approaches that each may take, while also supporting each other and co-ordinating work. I hope that explains why the compulsory membership of the board is set out as it is. Of course, the commissioner can appoint up to four members outside that list, and I trust her good judgment to get the balance right. I reflect on the fact that we have been having conversations about how independent the commissioner must be, and we have tried in to keep that balance right.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Will the Minister consider the risk of being open to the accusation that victims in Wales therefore have no voice with the domestic abuse commissioner?

[Victoria Atkins]

I think that would be very unfair on the commissioner. Let us not forget that, alongside the advisory board, the commissioner will be required to establish a victims and survivors advisory group. That is in the terms and conditions of her employment, and it is left to the commissioner to draw the group together herself. Again, I am sure she is watching these scrutiny proceedings very closely, and she will have listened to that concern.

I will draw back from making any requests or directions of the commissioner in that regard, but she has been clear throughout this process that she is keen to respect devolution, but also to work closely with the Welsh Government and Welsh national advisers where it is appropriate and possible to do so. As I say, given that there is the flexibility, given that we have heard from the commissioner herself about her intentions and given that she is required to establish a victims and survivors advisory group, I hope that the concerns expressed by the right hon. Lady will be allayed.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I will withdraw the amendment for now, but I will hope to raise this further with the Minister in future. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Rebecca Harris.)

Domestic Abuse Bill (Third sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

I recognise the instigation of Operation Encompass, although it is early days. I must say, when I worked in domestic violence services, we called Operation Encompass the “392 form” and every school received a form if there had been a domestic violence incident in a child’s home. I must say, by and large, they were filed.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I refer to my own experience when I was a councillor responsible for local education. I remember—this varies between local authorities—how effective it was that looked-after children were the responsibility of the local authority and the schools were held to account for their educational performance. Obviously, this must be handled sensitively, but we know that children and their educational outcomes suffer in these circumstances, so making this more consistent must be beneficial.

[Jess Phillips]

I absolutely agree; there needs to be a consistent thread. I suppose the Government would lean on the idea of Ofsted’s safeguarding principles with regard to all schools, regardless of whatever jurisdiction they sit under. However, if we looked at any of the inquiries into sexual violence or harassment in schools, which have been done by what feels like every Select Committee over the past five years, we would see there is a real disconnect between the safeguarding that Ofsted is able to identify and incidents where, for example, peer-on-peer sexual violence in a school is handled appallingly. I cannot help but think there needs to be a far more consistent approach.

What is more, for example with Operation Encompass, a proper monitoring review and action plan needs to come out of any review. A former chief constable of Dorset Police wrote to me. He now runs an organisation that goes into schools and works with Operation Encompass. He told me that during a recent webinar with 150 school safeguarding leads, he ran an online poll, to ask who was aware of Operation Encompass: 35% said yes, they were aware; 49% said no, they were not; 9% said that they were not sure; and 7% said yes, but that they were not receiving any calls about children in such circumstances. I can only hope that they have very lucky children in their school without any incidences at home, although I find that vanishingly hard to believe.

When we talk about the voice of the child, nowhere in the debate that we will have over the next 10 days will we hear what I can only describe as a primal cry about hearing the voice of the child, including when we discuss the family courts. If I wanted to filibuster all day, I could read from the special folder in my inbox, which contains hundreds if not thousands of emails from children and adult victims who have been through the family courts, talking about how the children were ignored. There is a deep and meaningful reason why the voice of the child has to be put on the face of the Bill. Later, when we discuss the family courts, what we hear will put us all beyond any doubt that rarely are children asked what is happening at home by anyone, even when services are instigated.

Including children in the definition of domestic abuse would also mean that public authorities and frontline practitioners, including CAFCASS—the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service—and the police, will be encouraged to recognise and respond to children experiencing domestic abuse. Local authorities and their partners would recognise the importance of ensuring that child victims have access to support for their needs. That is deeply important.

I do not underestimate how stretched local authorities are. In most circumstances, they are trying to do the very best that they can. I used to say that I wished that the victims of domestic abuse were as important as the bins—there is a statutory duty to collect the bins—but now they will be. We have made it to the heady level of domestic abuse victims being as important as bins! I now wish to see children in every local authority reach that heady status. I do not underestimate the importance of bins, though. I am from Birmingham, where we have bin strikes all the time, so I cannot tell you how important I think that the collection of bins is—I do not wish to present otherwise to the Committee.

The report of the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill echoed much of what I am saying, stating:

“We recommend the Bill be amended so the status of children as victims of domestic abuse that occurs in their household is recognised and welcome the assurance from the Home Office Minister that the Government seeks to include the harm caused to children in abusive households in the definition”—

we would welcome that.

The Minister sent a letter following Second Reading this time—the Joint Committee report is actually a piece of scrutiny work done on a previous Bill. The Bill we are considering is a different one but, in shorthand, let us all assume that we are talking about the same Bill for now. In the letter, the Minister stated:

“It is vital that we support children who are affected by domestic abuse, and the Bill expressly recognises that in the statutory functions of the domestic abuse commissioner. One of the key functions of the commissioner will be to encourage good practice in the identification of children affected by domestic abuse and the provision of protection and support.”

I want to know what “encourage” means—the domestic abuse commissioner will “encourage”.

The domestic abuse commissioner, in her evidence to us on Monday, very much encouraged the idea that more support is needed for the victims of domestic violence who are children. She told a clear story about how shocking one particular service that seemed to be doing it well was to her—that she had never seen such a service. What powers will the powers of encouragement have? Will the Minister explain in her remarks how the commissioner will encourage that? The Government have not been encouraged to include children. The commissioner—regardless of her title—has no budget to commission children’s services in the country, and she has no power to demand that a local authority does it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

I very much appreciate the request, but, sadly, I cannot provide the Committee with a copy at this point. When it comes to the transparency of the journey to this point, the guidance has not been created by a silo of Home Office officials who did not talk to anyone else. We have involved, consulted and asked other people, and that has included asking the designate domestic abuse commissioner for her views. Indeed, she mentioned last week that she had seen it. Other charitable sectors have been very much involved and consulted in the drafting of the guidance. Sadly, covid-19 has had an impact on our ability to draft the guidance so we have not been able to publish it in time for the Committee, but we are aiming to publish it in draft form before Report. I hope that members of the Committee will be able to see it before the next procedural stage, and I apologise for it not being available now. We want people’s views on it. All sorts of colleagues have been asking me whether certain things are being included in the guidance, and I have been saying to them, “This will be open for people to give their views on it.” Of course, I welcome views on it.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I wonder to what extent the Minister has considered the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, and the fact that when we are dealing with children we are at the jagged edge of devolution—between the laws affecting Wales and those in England—as well as considering how the interplay will work with these measures.

[Victoria Atkins]

The hon. Lady probably does not know this, but she may be committing a parliamentary first. The old hands that have previously sat on Bill Committees will know that part of a Minister’s job is to keep talking while her officials furiously scribble notes that are handed to her to enable her to accurately answer difficult questions. Sadly, I do not have that ability, but Members may see me looking at my mobile phone. I would be grateful if the hon. Lady would indulge me and allow me to return to that later, because she asks a specific question. In general, I am, of course, aware of the jagged edge, as she describes it.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Part of me feels that I may be a little bit boring in this Committee, because I have a duty to say, “Look at what has been done in Wales and look at the responsibilities that lie in Wales.” I fear—this came up in the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill—that we have two pieces of legislation in operation and this piece of law will affect the legislation that I have mentioned. We will create wonderful events, or we may unexpectedly create tensions out of the divergence test. It is important that that is considered at this stage.

[Victoria Atkins]

Very much so. May I postpone my answer until we debate the amendment that the hon. Lady has tabled on Welsh devolution, so that I can address the point about clause 11? We are aware that good work is going on in Wales on domestic abuse through the devolved authorities. Where matters are devolved, we have the “jagged edge”, as she describes it: some areas in Wales are devolved and some are not. It is perhaps a little clearer cut in Scotland, but we are clear that we want to work with our Welsh colleagues, and I hope that the commissioner gave reassurance last week. I think I am right in saying that the Home Office has helped to fund the work on adverse childhood experiences has been conducted by the South Wales Police. We see that as a really important piece of work with the police and crime commissioner in South Wales, and we hope that it will help the rest of the country as the findings are evaluated.

Public Order

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Black Lives Matter protests have been held throughout Wales and I, too, stand against the injustice and violence faced by black people here and elsewhere. The vast majority of protesters respected social distancing or made innovative use of communications technology. Will the Home Secretary give due credit to the peaceful majority? For example, school student—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. We do not need examples. The question has been asked. [Interruption.] Order. The question has been asked.

Domestic Abuse Bill (First sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 4th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

[Liz Saville Roberts]

[The Chair]

Domestic Abuse Bill (First sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 4th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Q Thank you, Chair. I am never one for being quiet, so I think my voice will carry. I want to ask about the impact of the coronavirus and whether you think that has any implications. What can we learn from the impact of the pandemic that can help the Bill?

Nicole Jacobs: The question was about the impact of the coronavirus and what we might learn in relation to the Bill. I will answer briefly, but I think if it has taught us anything, it is about the prevalence of domestic abuse and the need for services. That goes exactly to our argument on broadening the statutory duty. At national helplines, we have seen increases across the board—for male victims, female victims, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender victims, and people who are concerned about their own behaviour. It shows the need for those services—that is where people go to for help, support and advice—and it strengthens our view about the need for the statutory duty. It has certainly, in my mind, shown the need for cross-governmental and much clearer action, planning and strategy. I will do my part and will make sure I play my role in that too. I would have been able to function more easily in the last weeks if there had been that kind of framework and the expectation on Departments.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q One of the things I was very glad happened in the Joint Committee was the recognition of the fact that there is different legislation in Wales. There are also different third-sector organisations and a different arrangement with local authorities. There have been initial steps in your work in relation to the Welsh Government. You have been talking about cross-Government working. How do you see that developing in future? We have this divergence between England and Wales, and yet your role is equally important across both countries. How do you ensure that you are getting a voice back from Wales, to influence you at the heart of what you do?

Nicole Jacobs: To date, there has probably been more influence from Wales for me. I mentioned that Monday call. Welsh Women’s Aid sits on that call and an official from the Welsh Government sits on that call every Monday. They influence what comes out of that call, in what is given in the read-out, which goes to a number of stakeholders. It has helped us develop the obvious areas where we will need to work together—for example, thinking about funding through police and crime commissioners most recently and about what the picture is for Wales and what is happening there. I can see more than ever before where the synergies are. What is yet to be formalised in my mind is the areas where there could be more overlap, potentially, in thinking about mapping—things that, with agreement, it would make more sense to do together rather than separately on issues that are devolved. The working relationship is off to a good start, but I can see a real need for further development as well.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q Is there any formal arrangement between you and the Welsh Government to report back on their strategy as well?

Nicole Jacobs: Not yet, no.

[The Chair]

Thank you. I think Mike Wood has kindly given up his slot because of the time restraints. I have Julie Marson first, then Christine Jardine and then the Minister. It might be an idea to stand up at the back.

Domestic Abuse Bill (Second sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 4th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Victoria Atkins]

Q Of course, a key difference between these new orders in the Bill and other orders is that if you breach the order, that is a criminal breach.

Lucy Hadley: Yes, and that is really important. It has been a problem with the DVPO to date, and it is really welcome that that is included.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Q To what degree or does this actually do what is required for the Istanbul convention? If it does, great. If not, what needs to be done?

Andrea Simon: I would say that it does not go far enough in enshrining one of the key principles of the Istanbul convention: article 4(3), which speaks specifically about types of discrimination and how the implementation of the convention by parties should involve taking measures to ensure that the rights of victims are secured without discrimination on any of the grounds that are listed in article 4(3). One of those grounds is migrant status; we do not feel there is enough legal protection in the Bill to ensure that there will not be discrimination in the provision of services and support to migrant victims. To remedy that, it is important to insert the principle of non-discrimination into the Bill. That should be applied to any statutory duty on local authorities, or a wider statutory duty on public authorities to ensure that when they are discharging their responsibilities under the Bill, they are doing so mindfully and in accordance with the requirement under the Istanbul convention not to discriminate against certain categories of victim.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. We only have a couple of minutes, so we will have a quick question from Liz Saville Roberts.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q We have the domestic violence disclosure scheme and DAPOs, but they both maintain the onus on victims to take the initiative. There has been talk about a register for serial stalkers and domestic abuse offenders, along the lines of the violent and sex offenders register. Why can that not move ahead? What is preventing it? It seems a logical step, to take the onus off the victim or potential victim and shift it on to proven offenders.

[The Chair]

I am afraid that this will have to be a very short answer.

Suzanne Jacob: I am sorry, but I could not hear the question.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q What is preventing the adoption of a register of serial stalkers and domestic abuse offenders, along the lines of the register of violent and sex offenders, given its importance in shifting the onus away from the victim and on to the perpetrator?

Suzanne Jacob: At SaveLives, we believe very strongly that there needs to be comprehensive work wrapped around perpetrators of abuse. We believe that there need to be individual caseworkers of the kind that are supported by Drive, which the Minister mentioned, and indeed all sorts of other programmes. However, we also believe there needs to be a really strong multi-agency response, co-ordinated either through a multi-agency risk assessment conference, or MARAC, which is an existing procedure, or through a dedicated perpetrator panel.

The creation of another register is not something that we currently support because we know that the post-Soham recommendations were that the police are overwhelmed with the different databases and systems that they have got.

Ellie Butt: At Refuge we agree; we are unsure whether a register would make the significant difference that we need. Part of the problem is that a lot of perpetrators are not known to the police, and that is one of the concerns with Clare’s law as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. I will call Liz Saville Roberts, then Peter Kyle, Virginia Crosbie and Liz Twist. We are finishing at 4.45 pm, so if there is a moment—[Interruption.] No, we are finishing at 4.30 pm, so we have almost no time at all. I am really sorry; this is a shorter session.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q You talked about the coercive and controlling nature of relationships. In the past we have talked about the need for a domestic abuse register. I know there is resistance, but given the reality of victims’ experiences and the fact that DAPOs, notices—to a degree—and certainly the domestic violence disclosure scheme keep the onus on the victim to act, what can we do to move gradually towards a register? I know there is resistance from the police, with concerns about the additional workload, but we need to change the culture. That came up with the MARAC earlier on. What do we need to do to bring a register forward?

Dame Vera Baird: I am not over-keen on the idea of another register. What would probably be good for the kind of serial but not necessarily high-risk perpetrator I mentioned would be to get them into multi-agency public protection arrangements. It is probably better to think in terms of an institution that is already present, and get perpetrators into that, than it is to invent another separate way of recording the fact that they are a perpetrator.

[The Chair]

I’m afraid that is the end of the session. I apologise for that; I was in the half-hour session groove. Thank you for giving evidence.

Examination of Witnesses

Simon Blackburn and Sara Kirkpatrick gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

You are fine. Who was second? Liz Saville Roberts.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q Sara, thank you very much for coming here today, and thank you for raising the matter of CAFCASS and the fact that it operates in quite a different way in Wales. I wanted to refer to the inquiry by the Commission on Justice in Wales and Lord John Thomas’s report that came out at the end of last year, which indicates that in Wales we effectively have in many cases a twin set of bodies—those operated through the Home Office, those operated through the Ministry of Justice here, and those functions put in place by Welsh Government. How do we manage the situation? What are the lessons we should learn in relation to what the Domestic Abuse Bill is doing and the fact that we have a diverging environment in Wales, although of course we would want to use funding and opportunities as they come for common interests?

Sara Kirkpatrick: I am so sorry, but could you clarify the question you are asking me?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q In Wales, we have a twin-track set of justice bodies: those that come from the UK Government and those that have been put in place by Welsh Government. That is relevant here, because we have the domestic abuse legislation and we also have the CAFCASS situation, which is different in Wales from how it is here, and we are talking about children’s experiences here as well. What would be interesting for people who are not familiar with the Welsh justice environment to hear is how comfortably or uncomfortably this new legislation will sit in Wales and how we should be looking at that planning stage here.

Sara Kirkpatrick: The answer is that we should be cognisant of it at every stage within the legislation. For me, one of the stumbling blocks is the word “national”. I often hear things described as national that are actually UK-wide; then I hear things that are described as national that are actually England and Wales; then I hear things described as national that are England only, and Wales, which also has national, is slightly different.

I think it is hugely important to ensure that alignment and to make sure that there is that two-tier system. To do things differently does not have to mean that there is a gap between, but you have to be cognisant that those things are sitting next to each other. If you disregard that, that is when the problems will arise—if we do not look at the very beginning and say, “This legislation is coming into two countries; the Domestic Abuse Bill that Westminster is doing is a hugely exciting and innovative piece of work, but we have to look from day one and see whether it works in both places.” If it does not work in both places, we have to be really clear about where the gaps are and what the differences are, and also learn.

Your colleague asked me earlier what we could learn from the Welsh legislation, and Victoria asked a question about the definition. For me, the broadening of the definition is hugely important, so that it ensures that we get the different types of abusive behaviour and the different types of domestic abuse—that is very important—but also the gendered nature and the disproportionate effect of domestic abuse on women and girls and on migrant women. We need all of that stuff in there, and we need not only to have that in the definition; we need to back up our commitment by collecting data and disaggregating that data so that we can ask, if we make a commitment to do something, “Did we do that?” We should go back and check. One of the things that always frustrates me is when we make a commitment to do something and then we pat ourselves on the back without looking at the detail and saying, “Did we?”

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Q One of the issues that has come from my English colleagues as well is the availability of funding. Far be it for me to tell the Welsh Government what they should do with their funding—that is a fundamental rule of devolution, obviously—but none the less there is going to be a question as to how this operates from the Home Office to PCCs and with the different structures that we have in Wales.

Sara Kirkpatrick: Yes. There are different structures in terms of what money is devolved and what money is coming directly from Westminster. There are different settlements for different things. Welsh Women’s Aid is a membership organisation and we are currently running members’ meetings every single week, and we are incredibly privileged—sadly, that is because we are in a pandemic—to be able to engage with our members on a frontline basis and hear what their challenges are.

One of the challenges is that frontline services get confused. The information is put out from Westminster or the information is coming out from different commissioners and organisations are being asked to prove a need, which is fair enough, but they become confused because a declaration will come from Westminster that says there is money for everyone. Is that money for everyone, or is it just for some people? Clarity is so important. First is a proportionate settlement, but second is clarity about that settlement.

The last thing I would say is that Wales is physically different. This happens in England as well, actually: sometimes we take a very metro-centric view. We think that we have a lot of public transport and we think that the roads are easy. I have just walked around London today, and it has been very easy to get from one place to another. That is less true in rural areas. When we are talking about a proportionate settlement, we need to take into account the fact that rural communities have a smaller population, but it takes longer for individuals to get from one place to another. A single service provider cannot provide the same service and get everybody to a single site in the way that they can in metropolitan environments, because there is more rural in Wales—or I notice more rural in Wales, perhaps because I talk to the members.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

That is very useful. Thank you.

[The Chair]

I have four or five people who want to come in, and we have 10 minutes, so that is the guide for how long they should try to speak for. I call Fay Jones.