Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Tom Elliott]

Amendment 1 relates to the independent reporting commission on paramilitary activity, the function of which is to examine general paramilitary activity within Northern Ireland, and its report will hopefully see a move away from terrorist activity. We have made huge and significant progress over recent years, but we want a total end to the terrorist campaign and paramilitary activity.

Murders have happened both recently and in the distant past. We have heard about loyalist paramilitary activity and killings, and the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) has made many representations about the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian, which has clearly had a major impact not only on her family, but on the community. We have also seen IRA murders in recent times—Robert McCartney, Denis Donaldson, Paul Quinn and more recently Kevin McGuigan in Belfast. What strikes me is the brutality and the clinical way in which those murders were carried out—the hallmark of the IRA in the past. The murders were not carried out by amateurs; they were carried out by professional terrorists and remind us of the IRA and other terrorist organisations. We want to bring an end to that. We must not forget that the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland said recently that the IRA and the army council still exist. We need to deal with that and to ask whether the IRA and the army council are still inextricably linked to Sinn Féin, which is in government in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 1 relates to the appointment of two members to the independent reporting commission by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I accept that the “Fresh Start” document states that the Executive will appoint those two members, but we are seeking a move away from political appointments because it would be helpful if the appointments were made by a more independent body. When Northern Ireland parties were progressing aspects of the Stormont House proposals last year, it was suggested that the appointment of the proposed historical investigations unit director would also be done by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. During the many discussions on that process, there was some level of agreement that there could be other, better ways of making that appointment. The Ulster Unionist party put forward suggestions for an independent process, but given others’ concerns about that, the option of the director being appointed by the Northern Ireland Policing Board carried some weight among all the parties involved in the talks.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that the Policing Board was established by the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000. In tabling amendment 1, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has checked that it would be within the Policing Board’s powers to make appointments to the independent reporting commission.

[Tom Elliott]

I thank the hon. Lady for that helpful intervention. We discussed the matter at length during the talks last year, into which all parties had input, including officials from the Northern Ireland Office and the Department of Justice. We felt that the Policing Board could be such a mechanism. I suppose that, in fairness, some people might say that it is still semi-political, and it is, but it has independent members so it can cross the political divide towards independents and lay people. That is why we felt that it was a good option for making appointments in this process, particularly given the fact that the Deputy First Minister has, by his own admission, said in the past that he was a senior member of the Provisional IRA. Obviously, there is still a question mark over whether he is still a member of the IRA army council.

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[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is appropriate that I place on record at the outset our appreciation for the independent reporting commission, the creation of which is important. I think I speak for the whole Committee in welcoming it.

Our debate on amendments 1 and 7 illustrates one of the great problems faced by any of us involved in the politics of Northern Ireland: the search for independence. With a population of 1.7 million, where, as is often said, everybody knows everybody, it is almost impossible to find anybody who is completely Simon-pure and separated from any accusation of community bias. The search for that person who is completely independent has in the past taken us to Finland, to South Africa, to Canada, and to Canada and back to Canada, and it will probably continue to do so.

It is intensely important that we realise that we are dealing with a conflict between aspiration and actuality. Everybody wants a completely independent nominating system, but nobody whom I have yet heard can come up with a mechanism to achieve that beyond peradventure and beyond criticism.

[Lady Hermon]

In his comments, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not mean to cast any sort of aspersions on the composition of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which did monitor and did report. The proposed body will do both and will be called the independent reporting commission. We had Lord Alderdice, John Grieve, a retired senior member of the Garda Siochana and a retired American police officer, who did a fantastic job on the Independent Monitoring Commission. I am sure the hon. Gentleman meant to add a sentence to say that we had full confidence in their independence in the IMC.

[Stephen Pound]

That is precisely what I was about to say. The point I was making is that we may succeed. Quite often we succeed, but sometimes it is against the odds. The search for that additional independence continues. The hon. Lady is, as ever, completely right in this matter.

When the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) introduced amendment 1, he was right to mention some of atrocities—not just the recent atrocities, but the murders of Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney. I spent a great deal of time with Paul Quinn’s parents, and it is important that we never forget that horrific murder. Even though it was some years ago, the memory is still raw.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) focused the debate by talking about the veto safeguard that exists in the current system. It is immensely important that we realise the significance of that. If we are trying to find a mechanism for a nomination process, the proposed process is about as close as we are going to get. I will listen with interest to what the Government say, but we also need to pay attention to amendment 7, which was tabled by the SDLP. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) pointed out, rightly, that the predecessor to the current Secretary of State had some of these issues pointed out to him at the time. It would have been better if we had considered them then, instead of now.

Just as these amendments illustrate one of the problems of finding people to appoint who are beyond criticism, they also illustrate one of the great strengths of Northern Ireland politics. Even when politicians are elected from a particular community, and may even be from a particular community, there has never been, in my hearing, any suggestion that they have failed to represent every aspect of their community. That is noteworthy, and we say it far too rarely on the Floor of the House. That aspect of life in Northern Ireland gives me great hope for the future.

The Opposition support the Government on this issue, which is an unusual position for me to be in. My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and I would like to hear more about these issues, and particularly about the points made in amendment 7, but for the time being, we think that the clause is about as good as we are going to get.

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[Mr Wallace]

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee is certainly not prohibited from examining the appointment by the UK Government, and it will no doubt be able to make recommendations or to make its views known. As to whether that is formally part of the process, the best thing, as I said, is to reflect on that. If my hon. Friend would like, I will write to him with a response or, hopefully, get back to him before the Bill’s stages are completed.

I turn now to clauses 2 to 5. Clause 2 deals with the exercise of the functions of the new commission. The clause provides that the objective of the commission is to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland. The commission will be required to exercise its functions in the way it considers most appropriate for meeting that objective.

The commission will also be under the duties not to: prejudice the national security interests of the United Kingdom or Ireland; put at risk the life or safety of any person; have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime; or have a prejudicial effect on any actual or prospective legal proceedings. With the exception of the duty not to have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime, those were all duties to which the Independent Monitoring Commission was subject. The new duty is now considered necessary given the shift in investigative responsibility for paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. Its intention is to ensure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland can engage fully and meaningfully with the commission.

[Lady Hermon]

The Minister cites clause 2, which says the independent reporting commission’s objective is to

“promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.”

For the record, will the Minister confirm that the commission is absolutely free—actually, that it will be called on—to report that paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland may well be initiated, instigated or supported from within the Republic of Ireland?

[Mr Wallace]

The IRC, obviously in conjunction with the duties I mentioned, will be free to report on anything of that nature. It is not only the UK Government who are keen to pursue this, but the Government of the Republic of Ireland. I think that both Governments recognise that this cannot be done in a vacuum, with Northern Ireland entirely carved out of paramilitary activity on the island of Ireland.

In respect of the duties not to prejudice national security interests and not to put at risk the life or safety of any person, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to the commission about the exercise of its functions, in so far as the commission’s functions touch on the disclosure of information that might be prejudicial to those duties.

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[Mr Wallace]

The clue is in the word “appropriate”. We want to set up the commission and make sure that it carries the momentum of public opinion to resolve the issue of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. Our view is that the best way to do that is to assign to two officeholders—the First and Deputy First Ministers— the authority to nominate two members of the four-member commission. That is the decision the Government have taken.

I have read the hon. Gentleman’s amendment 7. The First and Deputy First Ministers do not operate in isolation in the Executive; they consult and speak to Ministers on a daily basis. That may not be his experience, but it has certainly been mine since I was appointed. I want to place on the record my admiration for the current Justice Minister, David Ford, and what he has done over the past few years, and I am sad that he has said that he will not continue in that role. He is incredibly well respected in the Executive, and it is our view that the First and Deputy First Ministers do speak to him and regularly consult him. Perhaps they do not do so as much as the hon. Gentleman might like, but they would be unwise to not consult that office in any future debate.

[Lady Hermon]

It might assist the Minister if he took the Bill off the Dispatch Box and looked at the clause that we are discussing. The point that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is making is a good one. I am not talking about the amendment about who appoints whom to the Independent Monitoring Commission—I mean the independent reporting commission; it is hard to think that it is not a monitoring commission. I am talking about clause 5, on the conclusion of the commission’s work, about which the Minister has been speaking. The hon. Gentleman has made the point that before the Secretary of State makes the regulations that the Minister has referred to, clause 5(2)(c) specifies not only that the Secretary of State must consult, quite rightly, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, but that she must consult

“any other person the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

As the hon. Gentleman said, it would be helpful if the Minister put on record this afternoon, in Hansard, the fact that “any other person…appropriate” includes the other Executive Ministers.

[Danny Kinahan]

rose—

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[Lady Hermon]

It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, while we discuss this important Bill, and I will say now that unless the Minister gives me a satisfactory reply, I am minded to divide the Committee on amendment 6.

Amendment 6 strives radically to improve clause 8, and I cannot believe that the Minister does not think that that is necessary—the clause certainly needs to be radically improved. We have just spent at least an hour in a useful debate on the establishment of yet another commission in Northern Ireland, namely the independent reporting commission. I am delighted that under clause 2, the primary objective of that commission will be to

“promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.”

It is long overdue for the people of Northern Ireland to be rid of the scourge of paramilitary activity. They will be delighted with that commission when it is established, and will have confidence in it doing a good job.

On Second Reading, the Secretary of State said something important about the Stormont House agreement, which the Minister has cited regularly in his opening remarks. She stated that that agreement

“places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s political representatives to work together with determination to rid society of paramilitary activity and groups.—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 70.]

I say “hear hear” to that.

As the Minister rightly explained, clause 8 introduces an undertaking that all MLAs must give before they can participate in any of the Assembly’s proceedings, and as drafted, it goes to great lengths to set out the terms of that undertaking. Among other things, it means that before an MLA can participate in any Assembly proceedings, they must pledge to support the rule of law and to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality. Those are two of the detailed provisions in that new undertaking.

Having gone to such extraordinary lengths to draft that new undertaking to comply with the Stormont House agreement, the glaring omission—we cannot possibly allow this to get through the Committee unamended—is that no provisions refer to Standing Orders that will investigate alleged breaches of that undertaking, and no Standing Orders will impose sanctions on MLAs who are found to be guilty of such a breach. Let us hope that no MLA would ever stoop so low as to breach their own undertaking, but if such an allegation is made it must be investigated, and if the MLA is found to be guilty, there must be sanctions.

The current drafting of clause 8(1)(2) is interesting, because we are already quite happy that:

“Standing Orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”

We are a sovereign Parliament—how often have I heard in recent weeks that sovereignty belongs to this Parliament—and the beauty of my amendment is that it simply adds to what we already have. Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly to investigate alleged breaches of the undertaking by MLAs, and to impose sanctions on MLAs who are in breach of that undertaking.

When I made that suggestion on Second Reading, the Secretary of State said in response to an intervention about sanctions:

“In terms of internal matters of discipline within the Assembly, that really is a matter for the Assembly itself to determine.”—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 72.]

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that the only sanction in the Bill is that those who do not give the undertaking in the first place cannot participate in the Assembly? There is not even a limit on how much time can pass before they can be expelled. In the light of some of the comments recently made by Sinn Féin, which said that republicans could use violence at another time, it is important that MLAs make that undertaking in the Stormont House agreement and are kept to it. If they make subsequent statements, there should be a process for investigating that and deciding what punishment should be imposed.

[Lady Hermon]

That is absolutely correct. The glaring omission—I am repeating myself, but it is worth repetition—is that although we have introduced a new undertaking for MLAs, that is not the same as the Minister’s pledge of office. That has been extended, and the Minister rightly read out the sanctions for Ministers who breach their pledge. This undertaking is completely new for all MLAs, and it is the duty of this Committee to ensure that when the Bill leaves this place, it is fit for purpose. The Bill has been introduced to get rid of paramilitary activity and associated criminality, which has been the scourge of Northern Ireland for years and years. For goodness’ sake, let us do it right!

The beauty of my amendment is that it does not interfere with the domestic arrangements and internal workings of the Assembly. It simply ensures that Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly, and that there will be a process of investigation and sanctions for a breach of the undertaking. That is not interfering with the Assembly’s internal discipline. That is my amendment, and if the Minister is unable to give me a satisfactory reassurance on that issue at the end of the debate, I will push the amendment to a vote.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that there could be general frustration, because the Bill requires MLAs to give an undertaking, but if they breach that undertaking and there are no sanctions, people will say, “What is the point of MLAs giving those undertakings?” If anything, it will generate more anger, rather than assuring people that those who are elected and serve in the Assembly are supporting democratic means.

[Lady Hermon]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that. In introducing this group, the Minister referred to the fact that we currently do not have cross-community support for various Standing Orders. It is therefore the duty of this House today to make sure that when this legislation leaves this place, it is fit for purpose, and so it must include a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced to address both sanctions and the investigation of alleged—

[Tom Elliott]

I support the hon. Lady’s amendment and her thought process on this matter. Does she agree that it seems to have been a gap in the “Fresh Start” agreement that none of this was dealt with in that process?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. One has to ask why any references to sanctions were left out of the “Fresh Start” agreement. The fact that sanctions were not mentioned in that may well suit a political party—Sinn Féin. I am so weary of having spent my entire life having to deal with paramilitary activity. He made reference at the beginning of his contribution on the earlier group to Lisa Dorrian, the young lady in my constituency who was murdered and disappeared by those with loyalist paramilitary connections. Both loyalist and republican paramilitaries are a scourge for the rest of the community. I am very pleased that he is supporting my amendments this afternoon, because as an independent, I am totally reliant on other colleagues to provide an additional Teller at the vote and I may be calling on him later.

[Jim Shannon]

Lisa Dorrian disappeared from Ballyhalbert in my constituency. Searches took place in Comber, also in my constituency, but unfortunately nothing as to where she might have been buried was found. But there are people in society who are very aware of where she is, and some of those people have been named in the press. May I encourage the hon. Lady to make this statement, which I will also be making: there are people who have information about this, so let them come to the police, tell them where the body is and give Lisa Dorrian’s family the peace of mind that they need?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, as he is right in everything he has said. Lisa Dorrian, a young lady in her early 20s, was disappeared and murdered 11 years ago, and her family have never had the peace of mind that comes with a Christian burial. Her remains have never been found, despite the valiant efforts of the PSNI—and I put that on the record. There are others who were disappeared by the IRA, such as Columba McVeigh, a young man from Donaghmore whose remains have never been found. There is pain and grief on all sides. As I say, paramilitarism has been a dreadful scourge across the face of Northern Ireland for far, far too long. I have the highest regard for this Minister, so when he gets up I do not want to hear the Stormont House agreement cited as a reason why we cannot put into this Bill this afternoon a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced by the Assembly. No detail is being provided about the sanctions or about the investigative procedure in respect of a breach of the undertaking. The very least we can do for the people of Northern Ireland, including the grieving parents of Lisa Dorrian and Columba McVeigh, although his mother passed away some time ago—

[Mr Wallace]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

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[Lady Hermon]

Is the Minister about to concede? That is excellent and I will give way.

[Mr Wallace]

I wouldn’t hold your breath. I hear what the hon. Lady is saying, and I am not going to refer to the “Fresh Start” agreement, but I must ask why she feels it is appropriate for this House to impose on a devolved institution and prescribe to it Standing Orders within that institution? We would not be doing that for Holyrood or for Cardiff, so why does she think it would be appropriate in this case for Westminster to impose that on the Assembly, given that under Standing Order 69B it could make provision to deal with all of this?

[Lady Hermon]

May I just ask the Minister to pick up the Bill and turn to page 5? As I have mentioned, the Bill already sets the precedent here, as in clause 8 it clearly states:

“Standing orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”

The Bill has therefore set the precedent; we are quite prepared to oblige the Assembly to introduce Standing Orders to provide for a procedure for this undertaking. That is why my amendments are so persuasive and why I am hopeful that Her Majesty’s Opposition—I am looking to them—will be supporting me this afternoon. I know that other colleagues are going to support me on this. The precedent has already been set, it is in black and white in the Bill and my amendments simply add further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or about the investigatory procedure.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that the Bill states not only that Standing Orders “shall” do some things, but that they shall not do some things, as they

“may not specify a day or period of time after which members are prohibited from giving the undertaking”?

This House is already telling the Assembly what it can and cannot put in Standing Orders, so why not include something about sanctions?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful for that helpful intervention, as ever, from the hon. Gentleman. I am sure the Minister and the Government would not like to be accused of being inconsistent. We have to be consistent here. A consistent approach has to be taken to the eradication, once and for all, of paramilitary activity and all its criminality in Northern Ireland. The Minister will have read this Bill many times and when he carefully reads it again, he will know that the precedent has already been set. We in this House are the sovereign Parliament, thank goodness, and just as a show of sovereignty the Standing Orders are already provided for in several clauses. My amendments simply extend further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or the investigatory procedure.

On that, I will bring my remarks to a close, having warned the Minister that I will push my amendment to a vote at the end, with the help of volunteers to be Tellers.

[Ms Ritchie]

A number of Members, including the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who raises this issue again through her amendment, have asked questions about the content and policing of the pledge and undertaking. That was done on Second Reading by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), as well as by the hon. Lady, who has enunciated her views on the principle again today.

I shall speak to my party’s amendments. Amendment 10 refers to paragraph (e) in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and clarifies that Ministers are already subject to a requirement to act in accordance with all decisions made by the Executive and the Assembly. Amendment 16 deals with clause 8, inserting the words “others, including” in the reference to MLAs. The provision might seem small, but it is central to the whole-community approach that will be needed to tackle paramilitary activity. It would compel Members of the Assembly to work with civic society in Northern Ireland, reflecting our approach during the Stormont House agreement of having that community approach to ridding Northern Ireland of paramilitarism.

I agree with the hon. Lady that paramilitarism has been a scourge and a cancer in our society, right across the community, and we want rid of it, but we also believe that there must be adherence the best democratic principles within our elected institutions. Our reference in amendment 15 to the Nolan principles would ensure that this progress and political action on paramilitarism extends to MPs, councillors and all in public office. Having the First Ministers make their pledge orally at a sitting of the Assembly would publicise a cross-executive commitment to a society free from the blight of paramilitarism. In our papers for the Stormont House talks, we advocated a community approach, stating:

“Political parties ought to be showing coherent and consistent shared standards which recognise and repudiate nefarious paramilitary interests and involvements. This should reflect a shared approach which is about rooting out paramilitarism and its trace activities, not just singling out particular groups or given parties.”

Our amendments would clarify the terms of the pledge and undertaking and avoid further misinterpretation or a tension between different parts of the pledge and undertaking. As I have said previously, the duty in the Bill to

“support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”

is vague and could be misinterpreted as supporting someone or a group that is determined to someday move away from paramilitarism. The SDLP is in favour of support for transition away from paramilitarism, but wants to ensure that that cannot be used to cover tolerance for paramilitary activity, for which there should be no tolerance. Combining what are currently two distinct precepts of the pledge and undertaking into one would reduce that risk.

I have direct experience of this issue. As a former Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, on Tuesday 16 October 2007—I remember the date exactly—I cut off funding to the conflict transformation initiative following advice from the then Chief Constable, deputy Chief Constable and others that the Ulster Defence Association was engaging in criminality. Maintaining that funding would have been construed as supporting paramilitarism, not transition, however determined the UDA was to do that someday.

Like the hon. Member for North Down, we have concerns about the policing of the pledge and undertaking. Any progress on tackling paramilitary activity is undermined by any suggestion that there are no consequences for non-compliance. I note that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) was making soundings in our direction. I hope he will see fit to support our amendments on sanctions in relation to the pledge and undertaking.

We envisage that the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards would receive any complaints relating to breaches of the pledge and undertaking. Both could avail themselves of the services of a pledge adjudicator on a case-by-case basis, if that was felt to be appropriate. The whole purpose of our amendments is to ensure best compliance and conformity with good democratic principles, and that we have a total move away from the scourge of paramilitarism that has been in Northern Ireland society for far too long.

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[Stephen Pound]

Labour Members will not be voting with the Government. We will be abstaining on this question, in the hope that the Government will be able to reflect and consult further and more widely. In this case, more than any other, there is a need for further discussion and consultation. We cannot simply rely on this one being forced through on a majority. The argument that we have heard today is far too powerful and far too relevant to be voted away.

[Lady Hermon]

I have to register my deep disappointment in Her Majesty’s official Opposition; I had expected better of them this afternoon. This is a very important debate for the people of Northern Ireland, who have had to live with paramilitary activity for so long. We would have it called terrorism, but we now define it as paramilitary activity. There is no difference between those people, however; they are terrorists by another name. I am deeply disappointed, and I would like the hon. Gentleman to explain the rationale for this decision by Her Majesty’s Opposition. He gave the House some good reasons earlier, and there is consensus on these Benches, so will he tell us what legitimate justification he has for sitting on his hands? Forgive me for putting it like that, but that is effectively what he and his colleagues are going to do this afternoon, and it is quite disgraceful.

[Stephen Pound]

I accept the lash that the hon. Lady applies, and to a certain extent I deserve it. However, the point that my colleagues and I would make is that we have to look at this matter further and in greater depth. More consultation needs to be done and more discussion needs to be heard. We have heard ambivalence on both sides of the House today, and questions have been asked about interpretation. It is essential that we get this right. Heaven knows, when the hon. Lady refers to living under terrorism, I know what she means but I can never precisely understand it because, thanks be to God, I have not experienced it myself. However, I have immense respect and admiration for those who have experienced it, and I hope that they will allow Labour Members to say that we have to get this right today.

We have to discuss these matters further. If the Government are prepared to extend an olive branch, to make an effort to consult more widely and to understand that this is not the best way forward, it will be appropriate for us neither to support nor to oppose them on this matter. I am sorry if I appear to be sitting on my hands. I apologise profoundly to those people who have been making the right points, but I hope they will understand that what we have heard today is not entirely a Manichaean argument. There have been many areas of interpretation, and it is there that we need to go. We need to get this right. This is not a binary choice. This is something that has to be discussed further.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

A theme that came out strongly from the fresh start talks was the need for a whole community approach to tackling the problems of paramilitarism in Northern Ireland in order not only to continue the excellent work of the police and their security partners, but to ensure that the public are well aware of the harm done by organised crime and are supported in their efforts to give the evidence necessary to bring individuals to justice and put them in prison, where they deserve to be.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Since the National Crime Agency has, at long last, become operational in Northern Ireland, what efforts have been made to seize the assets of those involved in organised crime and reinvest them in community projects in Northern Ireland?

[Mrs Villiers]

The NCA takes its duty to seize criminal assets very seriously. In that work, it will be assisted by the new joint agency taskforce on cross-jurisdictional crime, which will be established from April. It will consist not only of the NCA, Border Force, the immigration service and HMRC, but of the Irish Revenue Commissioners and the Criminal Assets Bureau. That will significantly enhance the excellent efforts already being made in Northern Ireland on these matters under the Organised Crime Task Force.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill gives effect to key elements of the fresh start agreement of 2015 and the Stormont House agreement of 2014. It is an important stage in the implementation of those agreements, which, taken together, have the potential to help us to secure a more peaceful, stable and prosperous future for Northern Ireland.

Before turning to the detail of the clauses, I will remind the House of the background to their contents. As the House will recall, following just over 10 weeks of intensive talks, the Government, the Northern Ireland Executive parties and the Irish Government reached the Stormont House agreement on 23 December 2014. It addressed many of the most significant challenges facing Northern Ireland. Some of those challenges, such as the long-standing disagreements over flags, parading and the past, were deeply damaging to political relationships within the devolved Executive and were fuelling community divisions. Others, particularly the state of the Executive’s finances and disagreements over welfare reform, were jeopardising the effectiveness and sustainability of devolution itself.

The Stormont House agreement included proposals to give the Executive a workable and sustainable budget; to set a path towards resolving contentious issues around flags, symbols and parading; to establish new bodies to help to tackle the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past; and to deliver reforms at Stormont to make devolution work better. All of that was underpinned by a financial package that gave the Executive about £2 billion of extra spending power.

The Stormont House agreement was and remains a good deal for Northern Ireland. However, by last summer, it was clear that implementation had stalled. That was largely due to disagreements in the Executive over the budget and finances, at the heart of which was the decision by the nationalist parties to withdraw their support for the welfare reform package agreed at Stormont Castle the preceding December. As the stand-off continued, it had the knock-on effect of preventing decisions on other elements of the agreement from being taken. Sadly, the sense of crisis was intensified by two brutal murders in Belfast, one in May and one in August, which once again raised the spectre of the malign influence of continued paramilitary activity on the streets of Northern Ireland.

As we entered last autumn, the political situation looked increasingly perilous. We faced the prospect that resignations might trigger early Assembly elections. That could easily have led to the collapse of the devolved institutions and a return to direct rule from Westminster. That would have been a major setback after all that has been achieved under successive Governments during the past 20 years. It was an outcome that the Government acted strenuously and decisively to avoid.

First, in a speech in Cambridge on 5 September, I made it clear that we could not let the financial impasse continue indefinitely and that if there was no resolution to the dispute, we would be left with no option but to legislate in Westminster for welfare reform.

Secondly, following discussions with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, it was decided that the time was right to convene a second round of cross-party talks, which began at Stormont House on 8 September. Once again, the talks included the five largest parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Irish Government on matters for which they are responsible, in accordance with the long-established three-stranded approach to Northern Ireland affairs. The objectives we set ourselves were twofold: to secure the full implementation of the Stormont House agreement and to deal with the impact of continued paramilitary activity.

The talks once again lasted for 10 weeks and concluded on 17 November with a document entitled “A Fresh Start: The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan”, which was agreed between the UK Government, the Irish Government and the two parties representing a majority of Unionists and nationalists in the Executive. In the Government’s view, that agreement goes a long way towards satisfying the objectives that the participants in the talks set themselves. It gives the Executive a stable and sustainable budget that includes welfare reform; it unblocks progress on other crucial elements of the Stormont House agreement, including institutional reform; and it strongly reaffirms support for the rule of law and places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s political representatives to work together with determination to rid society of paramilitary activity and groups. This agreement, like the previous one, was underpinned by a financial package from the UK Government, this time worth up to £500 million.

I can inform the House that progress on the implementation of the fresh start agreement has been good. On 18 November, the day after it was reached, the Assembly passed a legislative consent motion for Westminster to go ahead with welfare legislation. The subsequent Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Act 2015 was given Royal Assent on 25 November and the related order was passed in early December. The Government are working closely with the Executive on the extensive secondary legislation that is required to deliver the new welfare system in Northern Ireland. We hope to be in a position to begin bringing that forward shortly, with a view to completing its passage through both Houses as soon as we can.

On 21 December, the UK and Irish Governments, along with the Northern Ireland Executive, established a Joint Agency Task Force to reinforce efforts to tackle cross-jurisdictional organised crime. The Executive have established the three-person panel envisaged by the agreement to make recommendations for a broad-ranging strategy to disband paramilitary groups. The appointments process for the new flags commission is under way. A Bill to reduce the number of Government Departments from 12 to nine has completed its consideration in the Assembly. A further Bill to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly per constituency from six to five is set for its final stage of consideration in the Assembly tomorrow.

The Bill before the House today represents further significant progress, dealing with elements of the fresh start agreement that require UK Government legislation. Clauses 1 to 5 make provision to put into effect a treaty, to be agreed between the UK and Irish Governments, that will establish the independent reporting commission. The Bill sets out the commission’s primary objective to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland. It will report on progress towards that objective and on the implementation of relevant measures by the UK Government, the Irish Government and the Executive that were agreed in the fresh start agreement. The Bill makes provision for key aspects of the new commission’s work, including the duties to which it will be subject and the legal privileges to be conferred on it as an international body. These are intended to ensure that the commission is able to engage with a range of sources of information in performing its important functions, but will avoid doing anything that might put life, safety or national security at risk. I appreciate that hon. Members will wish to see the text of the treaty. It has not been possible to provide that today, because it has not yet been agreed between the UK and Irish Governments, but we will of course place a copy in the Library of the House in due course as soon as we can.

Clause 6 and schedule 1 will extend the time available for the allocation of ministerial positions in the Executive from seven to 14 days after the Assembly meets following an election. The purpose of the change, as set out in the Stormont House agreement, is to allow parties more time to agree a programme for government on a cross-party basis prior to the allocation of ministerial positions. It is hoped that this will encourage a more bipartisan approach to the programme for government.

Clause 7 will amend the pledge of office for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, reflecting strong commitments set out in the fresh start agreement to give unequivocal support for the rule of law and to work collectively to achieve a society free of paramilitarism once and for all. Clause 8 will introduce a similar undertaking by all Members of the Assembly.

Clause 9 will implement the commitments in the fresh start agreement for the UK Government to legislate, with Assembly consent, to increase fiscal transparency in Executive budgets, thus helping the Executive to deliver an affordable and sustainable budget.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

If I may take the Secretary of State back to clause 8, I am very pleased about the introduction of a new pledge for all MLAs. They will not be able to participate in any proceedings, or do anything within the Assembly, unless and until they have taken the new pledge. When they have taken the new pledge, however, what sanctions will there be if they fail to honour it, and who will decide?

[Mrs Villiers]

Naturally enough, any sanctions relating to the actions of MLAs are matters for the Assembly, rather than for the Chamber and the legislation proposed here today. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention.

Clause 9 provides that the Northern Ireland Finance Minister will have a duty to specify—

[Lady Hermon]

I am terribly sorry to intervene on the Secretary of State again, but if I may say so that was a rather flippant response and not at all characteristic—she is always so well briefed. Clause 8 actually states:

“Standing orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”

It does not say in clause 8 that Standing Orders will be passed in the Assembly on sanctions for MLAs who do not honour the new pledge, so it must be in this proposed legislation.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am very sorry. I did not mean for my answer to sound flippant or not serious. It remains the case that the Bill does not provide for sanctions and neither does the fresh start agreement. In terms of internal matters of discipline within the Assembly, that really is a matter for the Assembly itself to determine. What I can provide further clarification on is that an individual who refuses to give the undertaking will not be able to participate in Assembly proceedings, or receive any of the privileges of office or salary.

Clause 9 provides that the Northern Ireland Finance Minister will have a duty to specify to the Assembly the amount of Government funding available, as notified by the Secretary of State. The Minister will have to show, when delivering a draft budget, that the amount of Government funding required by that draft budget does not exceed the amount specified as being available.

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[Vernon Coaker]

That is a helpful response. I think that everyone in the House—and, indeed, in Northern Ireland—will have heard what the Secretary of State has said, which implies that she is open to making money available both to the PSNI and to the Coroners Service. I think that that is what victims would expect. They know that it is difficult to reach an agreement on how to deal with the past—and, although the institutions, or the proposed institutions, are there, agreement has not been reached—but, at the same time, work has to be done. Given that the money is there, we would support the Secretary of State if she—or, for instance, the Treasury—estimated at any point that at least some of the money could be released to enable that work to be done as soon as possible, because I think that people in Northern Ireland would expect it to be done as soon as possible. The First Minister would have been pleased to hear what the Secretary of State has said.

The House has been in the habit of dealing with Northern Ireland legislation in one day, but we believe that that should happen only when the need is truly urgent. We supported an emergency procedure with respect to welfare reform, and I promised the Secretary of State when I resumed my current role that we would maintain a bipartisan approach based on the principle of consent. I hope that our actions have demonstrated that commitment, but I want to make it clear that in this instance we have agreed to an expedited procedure rather than an emergency process. This procedure allows us more time to consider the Bill, while still making it possible for us to secure Royal Assent before the approaching Northern Ireland elections. I assume that any necessary legislative consent motion will be forthcoming in order to ensure that measures relating to the pledge of office, the MLA undertaking, and extension of the time available for ministerial appointments are in place in time for the Assembly's return. I am told that the Northern Ireland parties themselves are keen for that to happen.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made a fair and reasonable point about discussion of the legacy issues in due course. I think that anyone in Northern Ireland would expect discussion of those significant and important issues to take place by means of due process in the House, and not to be speeded up.

[Lady Hermon]

Will Her Majesty’s Opposition be tabling amendments to clause 8 to make it absolutely clear that a sanction will be applied to MLAs who make the pledge and take their seats, but then do not abide by the pledge that they have made? There is a code of ministerial responsibility for members of the Executive, and there are sanctions, but there are no sanctions in the Bill, and that is an obvious omission.

[Vernon Coaker]

I will say something about pledges later in my speech, but, whether we table amendments or not, I think that the hon. Lady is right to ask for clarification. I shall be quoting one of the pledges which contains a qualification, and I shall be asking what that means. Even if we accept that this is Stormont business, I think it is right for such questions to be asked in the House of Commons.

The Bill will establish an independent reporting commission to monitor progress towards ending paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. That is a key aspect of it. Paramilitary activity is totally unacceptable and has no place in Northern Ireland, but we shall have to consider in Committee what progress has already been made, and why this initiative will work when others have not. How will progress be judged, and what will happen if it stalls?

The issue of disclosure will also have to be explored in Committee. It is bound to arise, because the Bill requires the Secretary of State to provide guidance on how national security and individuals are to be protected. We shall need an explanation in order to ensure that the problems that prevented an agreement on how to deal with the past do not happen again and prevent the Commission from working effectively—or, indeed, from working at all.

The Bill modifies the pledge of office to be taken by Northern Ireland Ministers, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). The revised pledge will include fresh obligations to work together on a shared objective of ridding society of all forms of paramilitary groups and activity, and the Bill introduces a parallel undertaking for Members of the Assembly, who must commit themselves to demonstrating a peaceful pursuit of change and progress. That is to be welcomed. However, the revised pledge includes seven newly agreed commitments, one of which is

“to accept no authority direction, or control on my political activities other than my democratic mandate alongside my own personal and party judgement”.

I think that, in Committee, Members may want to hear a full explanation of the qualification in that pledge.

The Bill extends the period allowed for the appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers, once the Assembly is elected, from seven to 14 days, which we hope will allow more time for a programme of government to be agreed. It also provides for the promotion of fiscal transparency and support for the Executive’s delivery of a stable and sustainable budget. It must be made clear what block grant the UK Government will provide, and how spending above that will be funded. I look forward to some interesting discussion of that in Committee.

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[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I welcome the debate on this Bill, and the DUP supports the Bill as well as the proposal to fast-track it. I commend the Secretary of State for her speech to the House, which was the latest in a number of wise statements that she has made on Northern Ireland and wider issues in recent days. I commend her for all those statements.

As a general rule, we are keen to see the fullest possible parliamentary scrutiny of legislation that affects Northern Ireland, and in the past a great deal of such legislation has been passed on an emergency basis. Although often that was unavoidable and understandable, we all accept—not least for the reasons outlined by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)—that that was not the best way to operate. Often, such emergency legislation was the result of some breakdown or failure of the political process in Northern Ireland, and I am glad that the Bill does not fall into that category.

This Bill has been drafted as a result of political agreement, and not political disagreement or crisis. It is based on a political agreement from last November, and it has involved considerable consultation and work in the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the Northern Ireland Executive. The Bill is only part of the implementation process of the Stormont agreement. A long list of issues were agreed, and they are all being progressed and implemented either in the Assembly, through this House, or directly administratively by the Executive and other agencies, as set out by the Secretary of State. I welcome that progress. The Executive in Northern Ireland has already agreed that a legislative consent motion should be put before the Assembly for clauses that deal with devolved matters, and I understand that that motion will come before the Assembly in mid-March.

I am confident that despite the need to fast-track the Bill, we will have the opportunity for adequate consideration. It is important that a number of measures introduced by the Bill are in place so that when Assembly elections are held and the results come in, everything is in place for the new Assembly and Executive to operate under the new legislation, without any hiccup, delay, or question mark about that. In particular, it is essential that the House deals with the agreement of a programme for government, extending the period to appoint Ministers, new paragraphs for the pledge of office, and an undertaking for Members of the Legislative Assembly, before the Assembly is dissolved at the end of March.

[Lady Hermon]

In the light of the recent controversy surrounding the scrutiny of MLAs’ expenses, and—unfortunately—the damage that that does to public confidence in the operation of the Northern Ireland Assembly, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill would be an appropriate vehicle with which to introduce in Northern Ireland an institution comparable to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, so as to rebuild public confidence in the expenses vetting procedure in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Dodds]

IPSA is a whole other area of debate, and I am sure it will evoke much argument and discussion in this House. The DUP suggested the introduction of an IPSA-style regime some time ago, but we could not get agreement on that. The First Minister of Northern Ireland made a speech on Friday night, outlining again the importance of transparency and of that matter being dealt with and taken forward in precisely that way. Whether the Bill is the right vehicle for that remains to be seen, because it would require agreement and consultation within Northern Ireland. That could—and indeed should—happen, and I encourage parties to do that. It is important to maintain confidence in the integrity of the Assembly. We in this House know what it is to have gone through that kind of controversy, and we want to ensure that things are progressed properly, openly, and with the utmost transparency.

However, when IPSA reported on expenses in Northern Ireland, it found a pretty satisfactory situation overall—it is not as if the entire situation was unsatisfactory. We must ensure that there is confidence, and I and the DUP support whatever steps are needed to introduce an open and transparent system in which such matters are not decided or administered by Members; I hope others will agree.

The Bill, as the Secretary of State has said, seeks to implement aspects of the fresh start agreement, which represents a new beginning for politics in Northern Ireland. I totally agree with what she said about the situation in Northern Ireland. It is more positive now. There is a more positive view of the Assembly and politics, because people have seen that agreement can be made. It was difficult, but things can get done when there is agreement and we can move forward. We must continue to build on that.

It was not, of course, possible to resolve every issue, especially in relation to the past. We have discussed that and will discuss it in much greater detail. Of course, it is not in the Bill—we should be discussing what is in the Bill—but I want to state again that, as far as our party is concerned, we are quite happy for the details of how far we got on all that to be published so that the victims, their families and all the people affected can see openly how much work is being done, how much progress has been made, where the gaps are and what needs to be done to bring the process to a conclusion.

The two issues that threatened imminent destruction of devolution at that time—paramilitary violence and welfare reform—have been addressed, agreed on and dealt with and are subject to provisions in the Bill. The resolution of the welfare reform issue was extremely important; the importance of resolving it cannot be underestimated. It was the single most important issue, from a financial perspective, to be resolved to allow the Assembly to function. I deeply regret that even after the fresh start agreement there were still Members of this House and of the Assembly who opposed the implementation of the agreement. They did not seem to recognise that without a budget that measures up and is sustainable, one cannot continue with devolution.

I am glad that there are politicians in Northern Ireland who are prepared to face up to reality, grapple with difficult problems and sit down to reach sensible outcomes through dialogue and agreement. I am pleased that this House was able to take forward the welfare reforms and the Northern Ireland Assembly was able to agree that the mitigations and some of the enhancements to the welfare system will be allowed to proceed as well. Of course, that is very important. We on these Benches would not have designed this welfare system for Northern Ireland, but it recognises the constraints and parameters within which we must operate financially while going a fair distance to meet some of the problems and issues raised by our constituents.

I am pleased that all the major targets under the fresh start agreement and the implementation plan are being met and that deadlines are being kept. Unlike with the Stormont House agreement of 2014, I believe that there is every reason to expect that every aspect will be implemented in full. On the welfare reform agreement, it is important to note that Eileen Evason’s group made recommendations that came in under budget and will be implemented by the Assembly and the Executive. That allows more money to be spent in other areas by the Executive, who have now passed a budget for next year ahead of time which has been dealt with by the Assembly as it should have been.

On the issue of paramilitary violence, the panel on paramilitary disbandment has been set up and has begun its work. The trilateral meeting to tackle paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime met before Christmas. The Executive are seized of the importance of making progress on this issue, because, at the end of the day, as we made very clear when the crisis blew up, we are not prepared to sweep these matters under the carpet. They must be faced up to by everyone who wants to see Northern Ireland move forward. There must be not only a commitment in words to democracy and the rule of law but an implementation of that in practice. That is why we on these Benches, and back in the Assembly, as elected representatives of the people, will not allow these matters simply to be ignored or to be used as a political football for a temporary political point-scoring exercise before being forgotten about. We are serious about these issues and we want them to be addressed, and to be addressed properly.

I am also glad that the Executive has agreed the reduction in the corporation tax rate to commence from April 2018. The reduction to 12.5% is an extremely important addition to the range of attractions that Invest Northern Ireland will be able to go out and promote across the world to possible investors and those who are interested in coming to Northern Ireland. I welcome that and express our gratitude to the Government for their support on this matter. Many parties and people who will no doubt claim credit now gave up on corporation tax. Our party never gave up on it. Some people said that the possibility was over and done with and would never happen—that is the reality—but we did not give up.

I pay tribute to the former First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, who made corporation tax a very important issue. He recognised the value of having the measure in place. Indeed, I pay tribute to him for the work he did, along with the Secretary of State and other parties, to make this fresh start agreement happen. His commitment to ensuring stability in devolution cannot be underestimated. He deserves an enormous amount of credit for the agreement. The corporation tax provision, in particular, was something that he felt very strongly about and that our party has always believed in. I am glad that it is now proceeding. When the First Minister goes to New York and Washington and to the west coast in March, along with the Deputy First Minister and others, the strength of her argument about coming to invest in Northern Ireland will have been greatly increased as a result of this agreement. This tax reduction is another reason why there should be investment in Northern Ireland.

The legislation to reduce the number of MLAs and reorganise and reduce the number of Government Departments is also nearing completion. As we heard, tomorrow there will be further debate on that. The Assembly has passed a resolution to allow an official opposition to be created and that work has been taken forward by the Assembly authorities. Nominations have been sought from the parties and applications sought from the public for the flags commission, and we expect that to be established by the end of March. There has also been progress made on the fiscal council and the compact civic advisory panel.

All in all, progress on the fresh start agreement has been very positive and has heralded a better atmosphere at Stormont, where things are getting done. The Bill is a further positive step in implementing what has been agreed. If I might say so in passing, it is an interesting commentary on the media that when there is a hold-up in the Assembly, a massive issue of confrontation on political issues, a stand-off or when things are not getting done, there is a mass of attention and commentary. We do not hear the same reporting or the same level of discussion in the media, on the radio and on television when things are getting done, day by day and week by week. Legislation has been passed and progress is being made, but it is as if nothing is happening at all. There is hardly any reporting at all—I do not hear about any of it. It is interesting how sometimes good news, positive developments and progress are massively under-reported in Northern Ireland, whereas anything negative or bad is given massive prominence.

As other Members have said, it is worth putting on record the distance that Northern Ireland has come and the progress that has been made. For all the backward steps and ups and downs, we have made enormous progress. The political institutions that came back after the St Andrews agreement have provided a much more stable environment and I believe that that needs to be celebrated.

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[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I pay tribute to the Secretary of State and the Minister for all the work that they and their teams have done to bring forward this Bill. Having been involved in much of the negotiations in the past, I can say in all honesty—we should always give credit when it is due—that the Secretary of State has gone way up in my estimation for the clear stance that she has taken on issues both in the public domain and privately around the negotiating table. She has done so with great clarity and that is something to be welcomed from a Secretary of State. She has also been ably supported by the Minister.

I pay tribute to Mark Calway, who worked for my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson). I had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions as he took an interest in Northern Ireland. I know that my hon. Friend and his team will feel his loss very deeply, and we extend our sympathy to him and to Mark’s family.

Tackling paramilitarism is an important element of this agreement, and it is long overdue. As a party, we have pressed time and again for the paramilitaries to leave the stage. At times I have heard their spokespersons in the media talk about their big contribution to the peace process, but they have delivered little by way of the necessary steps. For far too long, they have been begrudging about the action that the paramilitary organisations need to take. They have continued to straddle the fence between democracy and the rule of law on the one side, and continued involvement in criminality and at times, sadly, in murder on the other.

One reason for the political crisis in Northern Ireland last year was precisely to do with this continued involvement by members of paramilitary organisations in criminal activity and in carrying out murders. As the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) reminded us, those murders took place in his constituency. We need to be absolutely clear that there is no room for ambiguity, for grey areas or for straddling the fence between the rule of the law and involvement in criminality and paramilitarism. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better, which is why it is vital that we continue to pursue this agenda, and the Stormont agreement marks a significant step in taking it forward.

[Lady Hermon]

The right hon. Gentleman condemns paramilitarism, whatever shape or form it takes—loyalist paramilitaries as well as republican paramilitaries. In that connection, will he put on record his thanks, and the thanks of many people, to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for completing yet another search for the remains of Lisa Dorrian, who disappeared 11 years ago, and was murdered by those with loyalist paramilitary connections? Her family have never had her returned for a Christian burial, and tragically her mother died broken-hearted earlier this year. I would be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman condemned equally loyalist and republican paramilitaries.

[Mr Donaldson]

The hon. Lady speaks of the individual, personal and family suffering of the victims of paramilitary violence. Let me make it clear that when, as a party, we refer to paramilitarism we mean paramilitarism across the political divide. I had the pleasure of taking the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State to Lisburn to visit a community project in my constituency. We have worked hard with people who were previously involved in paramilitary activity to enable them to complete the transition to what is now purely community development work, and those communities have been transformed as a result. For example, the Old Warren in Lisburn in my constituency has been transformed as a result of the transition of people previously involved in loyalist paramilitarism to purely community development. I commend the Resurgam Trust in Lisburn and its leadership for what they have done to transform that community by enabling those people to make that transition. I assure the hon. Lady that that is precisely the kind of effort that needs to take place in Northern Ireland.

It was one of the tragedies of conflict, and our troubles in Northern Ireland, that families not only suffered the loss of a loved one but were not able to mourn properly, because their loved one’s remains had not been returned to them. The family of Lisa Dorrian are a case in point, and we hope and pray that one day they will at least have the dignity of being able to bury the remains of their loved one. I appeal to those who know where Lisa Dorrian’s remains are to give that information to the police. I appeal to them on the grounds of basic Christian principles: even those involved in such wrongdoing should see that it is the right thing for a family to be able to have some degree of closure and have their loved one’s remains returned to them.

The Bill makes provision for the establishment of the independent reporting commission, which we welcome. The commission will report annually on progress on ending continued paramilitary activity, and we hope that it will shine a spotlight on republican and loyalist paramilitary groups that continue to engage in criminal acts and acts of violence. That will apply in Northern Ireland, but one of the important provisions in the Bill is that it will also apply in Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland. In recent times, we have seen the effects of paramilitary gangster-type activity in Dublin, which is unacceptable, and we must all co-operate to ensure that such activity is brought to an end. I hope that the good people of the Republic of Ireland, who go to the polls shortly, will think long and hard about who they elect to their national Parliament and where they stand on questions such as the special criminal court and the need to bring to an end paramilitarism, gangsterism and criminality, wherever they develop and emerge.

We welcome changes to the pledge of office for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive and, crucially, a new undertaking to be given by all Members elected to the Assembly after May that will commit them to non-violence and to supporting the rule of law. No such undertaking has been required in the past, even though an undertaking is required of councillors in local government. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right: we need to be sure that it is not just a question of a paper exercise but that sanctions are in place so that if Members breach that undertaking they can be held to account. I assure her that we will examine the Standing Orders of the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether such a sanction exists. If it does not, we are prepared to introduce and support an amendment to the Bill to ensure that provision is made for such a sanction.

The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and others have made reference to things that are not in the Bill, and it is a matter of regret that we cannot yet legislate for the provisions of the Stormont House agreement dealing with legacy matters. The Democratic Unionist party supports full implementation of the Stormont House agreement. We are doing nothing that holds back implementation of the agreement. We are all aware that implementation has not taken place because of a stand-off or impasse on the question of national security. Here I differ from the hon. Gentleman. He talked about victims, but I am interested not just in the victims of the past but in ensuring that we do not have more victims in future. When we take action that compromises the security of our people and brings into the public domain the manner in which the security forces operate to counter terrorism we put people at risk in Northern Ireland. We put lives at risk, and we create the potential for future victims in Northern Ireland, because sadly not everyone has signed up to the peace process. Not all paramilitary organisations are on ceasefire. People out there today are targeting others—in my own constituency, in the past couple of weeks there have been two instances of prison officers having to leave their home because of threats from dissident republican organisations.

Knowledge and intelligence have, thankfully, prevented attacks from going ahead, which tells us that our security services continue to operate to prevent loss of life and prevent further victims from being created. I would say to the hon. Member for Belfast South and the Social Democratic and Labour party that, yes, we want the maximum disclosure that is available, but we also need to ensure that the security of the people we represent is protected. Yes, we want processes to be in place for innocent victims of terrorism to enable them to have access to information and justice and a degree of closure. At the same time, we must not compromise the ability of the security forces to protect the community in Northern Ireland and prevent further victims from being created in future.

On the national security issue, no democratic party should give cover to Sinn Féin on this issue, because we know that what their game is. It is about rewriting the history of the troubles. The reality is that 90% of all the killings that occurred in the troubles were carried out by paramilitary organisations. However, if we look at the media coverage, read the newspapers and look at the amount of money spent on investigations and inquests, proportionately far more of that resource goes on the 10% of deaths attributed to the state. Many of those deaths were the result of the security forces killing people who were engaged in acts of terrorism, but far more emphasis is put on those deaths than on the 90% of innocent victims murdered by paramilitary organisations.

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[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I am delighted to participate in this Second Reading debate. I offer my condolences to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) following the bereavement of his staff member. I also offer my condolences to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) following his family’s bereavement last night.

In its generality, the Bill deals with trying to eradicate paramilitarism. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), I want to emphasise not only my party’s consistent support for political and economic stability throughout Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland, but, above all, our unequivocal opposition to all forms of paramilitarism, whether it comes from republican or loyalist paramilitaries. Paramilitarism, and what it fed and spawned, created not only instability but fear. It was like a cancer running throughout our society.

There were also other issues. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) referred to the murder of six innocent men in Loughinisland on 18 June 1994. That is a night I will never forget, because two people who were murdered that night were directly related to relatives of mine—one was an uncle and another was a cousin. In that respect, therefore, I know the character of those people, and their only political act on any occasion was to register their vote. Never by word or deed did they undertake any form of paramilitary activity, but they died at the butt of a gun, and their bodies were strewn over a pub.

I would therefore say to the Secretary of State that her comments on 11 February were in some ways unfair, because at the moment the independent police ombudsman is undertaking, and near the completion of, another inquiry into what happened in Loughinisland on that night and why it happened. Were there elements of collusion between the then RUC and those who perpetrated those awful crimes on that night, robbing the community that I represent and, above all, that I live in of six good people and irrevocably changing our community, not because what happened moved people towards violence in any form, but because it left them in a state of fear, in a community that had never known any form of violence before? I urge the Secretary of State in that respect to be particularly careful, because her words on 11 February could be construed as trying to obfuscate that inquiry by the police ombudsman, which is near completion. That is the second inquiry, because the previous ombudsman’s inquiry was inconclusive and, in many ways, could be perceived as being deliberately inconclusive.

[Lady Hermon]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s comments, and I have huge regard for her. I would just like her to put on record this evening her gratitude to the RUC, which stood between the whole community of Northern Ireland and absolute mayhem through more than 30 years of appalling violence. Three hundred and two RUC officers paid the ultimate price with their lives. I am sure she would like to put on record her gratitude for the sacrifice and courage of the RUC through the awful years of the troubles.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. We were always opposed to the murder of members of the security forces, whether those security forces were the RUC, the UDR or the Army. We saw what that did to those people and to their families. That murder and that paramilitarism against members of the security forces was totally unacceptable; we condemned it at the time, and we will always condemn it—we are very clear about that. Let me move on to other issues.

There is a clear need to ensure that economic stability is embedded in Northern Ireland, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) said when he referred to issues to do with corporation tax and the loss of jobs last week at Bombardier in the constituency of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), and other job losses. The most important thing is to ensure that existing economic stability in Northern Ireland is protected. What better way to do that, I say again, than through continued membership of the European Union, because we have a ready export market in the south of Ireland and are also able to trade with the wider Common Market? I ask the Secretary of State to reflect on her position in that respect.

Moving on to elements of the Bill, clause 1(4) deals with the independent reporting commission, to which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister can nominate two persons. I suggest that there would need to be a legislative input for the Justice Department, despite the character of the independent reporting commission. It could be argued that any Northern Ireland nominations should be made by the Executive as a collective body, or chosen from proposals made by parties. The issues that fall to the independent reporting commission brought the parties together in September last year, because they refer directly to the murders of Gerard Davison in the first week in May last year and of Kevin McGuigan in August. Both people resided in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South.

During the negotiations—I am sure that the Secretary of State and the Minister will recall this—we in the SDLP circulated papers to the three Governments and all parties on a whole-enforcement approach and a whole-community approach on how to address the issues of paramilitarism. Despite fresh start being designed and managed to be a two-party deal, there should have been all-party work on IRC membership. How can the work and the mandate of the IRC, which includes Dublin representatives, be reconciled with Sinn Féin’s approach to Tom Murphy from South Armagh? I would like to press the Secretary of State on precisely how much new moneys are to be made available to the National Crime Agency and the PSNI, when those moneys will be released, and how they will be split between the National Crime Agency and the PSNI.

Clause 2(3)(a) deals with national security, which was referred to by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. Paramilitarism and criminality are therefore to be addressed, but unfortunately the British Government can invoke national security, and that allows for the protection of agents who have information, thereby impeding work on the resolution of many cases.

Clause 6(1) deals with institutional reform. Yes, 14 days before the appointment of Ministers is okay, but fresh start refers to a proposal that parties have to agree to go into the Executive before the programme for government is finally agreed. Have the Government contemplated any amendment to this proposition? The pledge of office for Ministers states that they must

“support the rule of law unequivocally in word and deed and…support all efforts to uphold it.”

How can this be reconciled with Sinn Féin’s view on the National Crime Agency? The NCA is a vehicle for the rule of law, yet in February 2015 Sinn Féin opposed a motion in the Assembly that proposed support in word and deed, and refused to endorse it at a recent meeting of the Policing Board. How does the new pledge address Sinn Féin’s approach to Mr Murphy? The same applies to the pledge of office for Assembly Members.

In the Stormont House talks, and in our submissions to those talks, we have made the point time and again that capricious or divided political messages on paramilitarism exacerbate the challenges facing people trying to move community transitions and graduations away from ingrained paramilitary interests. A genuinely united political stance from all parties in the Assembly is imperative if we are to enable statutory agencies and community groups to challenge ongoing paramilitary activity, which should be condemned outright from whatever quarter it comes. For that reason, the ministerial pledge of office and the undertaking by Assembly Members are welcome, but further clarification is required.

One element of the pledge, in particular, requires further scrutiny: the reference in the pledge of office and the undertaking by MLAs to their duty

“to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”.

Will the Secretary of State or the Minister provide some clarification on that? Rooting out paramilitarism is not an overnight process, and scope has to be allowed for transition, but that cannot apply to illegal or untoward activity by paramilitary groups, or manifest itself as respect or tolerance for different classes of paramilitary behaviour. As MPs representing Northern Ireland constituencies, we have seen many examples of paramilitary activity.

As I said in my intervention on the Secretary of State, I regret the fact that there has been no legislative addressing of the legacy issues that need to be dealt with—the victims and the past. I urge that such legislation be introduced and that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said, it is subjected to detailed scrutiny by this House, because we owe that to all the victims and all those who have suffered so terribly as a result of such heinous violence that was never asked for and never called for.

In the outworkings of all these agreements, we must try to achieve political and economic stability, because that is what we all strive for and all want to see. For the betterment of all our constituents and all the citizens of Northern Ireland, we must ensure that social justice is provided for and that inequalities that have been inherent across the community for some years are totally addressed. We must also ensure that we see the sustaining of existing jobs and the provision of new jobs through the building up of small and medium-sized enterprises, but also jobs through foreign direct investment. I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister to work with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that this comes about.

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[Mark Durkan]

My colleagues have signed a petition of concern against a current proposal. [Interruption.] It is a matter of trying to protect existing laws and not change them rashly before an election. The DUP has cited that in relation to other matters. It is about defending the existing equality provisions. What happens with a petition of concern should be what was decided under the Good Friday agreement. Rather than that being the end of the matter, it should be the subject of an investigation by a specially appointed committee to see what issues of rights and equality are involved, to test those issues and to allow the matter to proceed. That is how it should have been, as per the agreement. That has been our consistent position on how petitions of concern should properly be dealt with; they should not be abused as they have been.

I turn to the pledge of office by Ministers and the undertaking by Members of the Assembly. The commitment is confined to Ministers and Members of the Assembly, and does not extend to other party politicians. In addition, the pledge of office requires Ministers

“to work collectively with the other members of the Executive Committee to achieve a society free of paramilitarism”.

I would hope that the Ministers’ commitment would extend much further than simply to working with their ministerial colleagues. Similarly, the commitment of Assembly Members should extend further than just to working with their Assembly colleagues.

There is also the question of what some of the terms mean. The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) was right to point out the final sub-pledge in the pledge of office by Ministers and the undertaking by Assembly Members, which is

“to accept no authority, direction or control on my political activities other than my democratic mandate alongside my own personal and party judgment”.

In the same pledge of office, Ministers pledge to be bound by decisions of the Assembly and the Executive Committee. The final sub-pledge appears to contradict that, so there is potential tension there. In addition, if we fill the gap that the hon. Member for North Down mentioned by creating clear standards and sanctions, people will have to accept some trammelling of their political conduct, because they will be listening to others as to what the due standards of behaviour and engagement should be. I think that there is a problem, which the hon. Member for Gedling was right to identify.

I want to take up the point that my hon. Friend the Member for South Down mentioned about the second to last of the sub-pledges, which is

“to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”.

That might seem to be fair enough as a general statement of support, but what does it mean in practice? Are there potential tensions between that and other parts of the pledge, such as the commitment

“to challenge paramilitary attempts to control communities”

and

“to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”?

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) earlier questioned whether some of the former paramilitary personalities who have talked a lot about their positive contribution to the peace process have been more laggardly in relation to certain standards and practices, and whether they have turned a blind eye to certain things.

The question therefore arises of whether or not, when we criticise or challenge such people, we will be accused of not supporting those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism. Many people use as a justification for their demands for funding for particular schemes—jobs for the boys, set-ups and all the rest of those things—that they are all about weaning people away from paramilitarism. Other people in the community sometimes challenge that by questioning why they were not interviewed for posts that had become available in community organisations or whatever, while other people were interviewed. We need to look at such issues.

We should remember the very glaring example involving my hon. Friend the Member for South Down. When she was a Minister, she decided to cease her Department’s funding of the conflict transformation initiative because the Chief Constable and other senior police officers made it very clear that those in the Ulster Defence Association, which was essentially funded and supported by the conflict transformation initiative, were up to their necks in a series of high-profile crimes. The Chief Constable made that clear, and high-profile criminal activity was taking place at the time. My hon. Friend brought that to the Executive, which told her she had to decide because it was a matter for her Department. However, when she made her decision, they changed their ideas. Members of other parties said, “Oh, no. The conflict transformation initiative is supporting people who are trying to make the transition away from paramilitarism,” while as far as others were concerned, the money was going to support and indulge people who were up to their necks in crime at that time. Which was it?

There are potential tensions in how any of us might interpret the pledge and the undertaking in clauses 7 and 8. We could take them in very different directions, so work is needed to refine them and define them better. We must also ensure that somebody else can arbitrate, because otherwise there will be a lot of arguments between the parties on such issues. The one thing we do not want is for parties to end up arguing with each other about who opposes aspects of paramilitarism either now or historically. The more united and coherent the parties can be seen to be, the better.

We want to make sure that that applies at all levels to resolve many of the existing issues. If there are controversies about party politicians turning up at particular events or protests that paramilitaries are also attending, we need to be able to deal with such issues. We must ensure that the pledge governs what happens when there are other controversies, such as the naming of the play park that has often been mentioned in this Chamber. It should be clear that we have an absolutely coherent pledge relating to paramilitary practices, either historical or current, and that we all have the same yardstick. That would provide protection for all individual politicians put under pressure at community level to get involved in this, that or the other, or to lend their presence to an event. A proper, articulate and robust pledge could give us a lot in that respect.

There are other issues about the Bill that I want to mention, before I touch on what is not in it. As hon. Members have said, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will appoint members of the independent reporting commission. In the fresh start agreement the reference was to the Executive, but the Bill makes it clear and explicit that the power lies with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I share the view of other hon. Members that that needs to be the subject of wider consideration and consultation. There are also issues to consider about the Secretary of State’s powers in respect of the commission. The fact that the Secretary of State will be in charge of defining and possibly changing many interpretations means that more work and consideration is needed.

I want to make a few points about clause 9, which is about draft budgets. The Government say they have included the clause because they want to ensure greater transparency and sustainability in relation to the budget. I am all for transparency in budgets, as I was when I had the job of the Minister of Finance and Personnel. In various talks, the Social Democratic and Labour party has advocated going much further on budget transparency. As well as designing the whole procedure for a fairly transparent process of draft budgets that are fully considered in the Assembly, open to public consultation and then subject to the revised budget procedure, we have advocated in various talks, going right back to Leeds castle, the idea that after the revised budget is approved by the Assembly, each departmental Minister should, within a number of weeks, make a statement about their own spending plan and be fully answerable to the Assembly on how they will deliver it. We thought that that would add to the transparency, but it was not to the taste of many of the parties that were talking a lot about transparency. I remember Peter Robinson telling me, “We don’t want that much transparency—that would be just too much.” I think there should be transparency in how the Assembly follows up on budgets.

Under clause 9, a statement will be laid before the Assembly about the amount of UK funding to be allocated. Will the Secretary of State consider accepting an amendment to take that further by saying that the statement should specify exactly how the Northern Ireland Barnett allocation was calculated? That would allow people in the Assembly, and Members here, to see exactly how the spending amount for Northern Ireland had been determined on the basis of spending commitments here and, possibly, on the basis of legislation and legislative requirements that had gone through this place. We would be able to see whether the two correlated.

A key argument that the Scottish National party and my party made in relation to English votes for English laws was that England-only or England and Wales-only legislation that goes through this place will inform the spending plans for England or England and Wales, and will, in turn, be factored into the Barnett formula. Therefore, let us have transparency. The Government tried to tell us that no legislation has those sorts of spending consequences. That is funny, because the same Government usually say, when they reject amendments to Bills, that they are doing so because there would be budgetary consequences. So they will not take amendments to legislation because there would be budgetary consequences, but with English votes for English laws they pretend that legislation does not have budgetary consequences.

The Government might be right, or we might be right. The way to prove who is right and to establish the facts in the future is to take the transparency provision a bit further. It should not be hard to colour in the budget statement a bit more. Rather than being just a brief outline statement, it should be well coloured in, whether in respect of the draft budget or the subsequent statement that comes with the revised budget. If people want transparency, that would be a good addition to the Bill.

There is a question over whether one intention behind the statement is that it can be used, in effect, as a budget cap. The Government say that it is about transparency and sustainability. However, when the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill was debated, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that the switch-on power would be activated only when the Treasury was satisfied that there was a balanced and sustainable budget. Some of us asked in the Bill Committee whether the Treasury would use that power to make a judgment on the spending plans of the Executive in relation to other matters, such as student finance, water charges or prescription charges. After all, the Treasury was using the Assembly’s failure to pass the welfare reform legislation to make the judgment that there was not a balanced and sustainable budget. The Financial Secretary said, “We will judge a budget on the sum of its parts.” He did not rule out the Government using the power to involve themselves in those other matters.

One reason why I welcome the provisions of clause 9 on draft budgets is that they settle a point that arose after the Assembly budget in 2008, when Peter Robinson was the Minister for Finance and Personnel. We tried to amend that budget and the programme for government, and we voted against aspects of it. A few months later, Peter Robinson announced that because the budget had contained indicative figures for 2009 and 2010, draft budgets did not need to be tabled before the Assembly in the subsequent years. The procedures that were laid down in the 1998 Act were clearly predicated on an annual financial exercise, but he said that he had received legal advice that the requirement for that exercise before each financial year had been discharged by covering the figures for all three years in the 2008 budget.

We challenged that at the time and took it to the Speaker of the Assembly. Unfortunately, he did not rule but said it was up to us to make a legal challenge. The flaky advice given by Peter Robinson was followed by that of his successor as Minister of Finance and Personnel, the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who said that the draft budget exercise was not needed. Clause 9 is clear that it will be an annual exercise. There is absolutely no ambiguity or doubt in how it is framed: it is an annual exercise. A draft budget has to be tabled and debated fully every year, with an additional statement made ahead of it. We are glad that that is set out in the Bill. It may restore the Assembly’s role in transparency, which needs to be amplified. The Assembly should be doing much more scrutiny of budgets and spending; that should not just be left to bodies outside the Assembly.

Members have raised issues not covered in the Bill, and the Secretary of State, in her opening remarks, addressed issues relating to legacy. Like my colleagues, I regret that, rather than our ending up with an all-party agreement, welfare reform was agreed by the three amigos of Sinn Féin, the Tories and the DUP—the austerity alliance. This Bill is now being brought forward, and we await the legacy legislation. It is important that it is not rushed. It is also important that we give some issues full consideration again. I recognise that the Secretary of State thinks the measure of agreement apparent around the table at Stormont House was the highest degree of agreement there has been. I would make the point, however, that Eames-Bradley offered a much better prospectus for dealing with the past. So did the Haass proposals, although not as good as Eames-Bradley. They were watered down in the Stormont House agreement, and they have been watered down further in a number of respects.

Victims’ groups have their own concerns, upsets and apprehensions about some of the issues involved. I ask them, and all parties, to consider all the issues in the round, not least with respect to the potential to deal with what have now been called “thematics”. It is hugely important that the historical investigations units is set up to undertake the work formerly done by the Historical Enquiries Team and the work on the past done by the police ombudsman, but we should recognise that the HIU will be confined to looking at killings. We should also recognise that it will work, a bit like the HET, on the basis of reports being provided to the families. Those reports will then be treated as the private property of the families.

Many cases, however, are linked. There are wider patterns, themes and issues at stake, not all of which relate to killings, and many of them need to be scrutinised and given an airing. In many ways, we think that would help to answer some of the questions put by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. He says that there is an unbalanced approach to the past, and that those who are seeking the truth and want the past to be investigated are concentrating entirely on what the state did and not on what paramilitary actors did. The whole question of thematics and patterns in those investigations could lead to more balance, which is why we in the SDLP in particular put such emphasis on that.

I recall that in the Haass negotiations, Richard Haass himself replied to points that the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley made about a failed market in relation to the past, whereby people with the means and the motives were pursuing the aspects of the past that interested them, while others were being left aside. He argued that thematics was one way of evening the situation up and ensuring that other pictures and other concerns were looked at.

[Lady Hermon]

Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] Despite the noises off, I want to take this opportunity to express on behalf of my colleagues and friends how very sorry we are to hear that he has had a bereavement in his extended family. We would be most grateful if he would offer to his sister our sympathy and support at a time when her partner was tragically killed in a traffic accident last night. We are very sorry indeed that death has visited her door and the hon. Gentleman’s door at such an untimely stage of life.

[Mark Durkan]

I thank the hon. Lady for her kind condolences, which I will certainly pass on. I accept them in the spirit in which she has shared them—not just on her own behalf but on behalf of her colleagues as well. Of course, whenever we experience the shock of death like that, it comes as a throwback. I did not know what had happened when I spotted the tapes across the road and the police action that was going on; it looked like a security operation that would have been familiar to so many of us down the years. In talking to the police at the scene, I had memories of other occasions, which brought to mind once again the position that we are all talking about, from our different party stances, when we deal with the concerns of victims and survivors about the past. This is why we need to give the issue full consideration now.

When the legacy legislation comes forward, we must ensure that it is going to be fit for the needs and purposes of victims and survivors. We must listen to them, and think a little more about what they say. I hope that the sort of consensus that the Secretary of State says she wants to build will not be one in which she just tries to square things off between herself and one or two other parties. It must be done much more widely.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) has said, we will bring forward amendments on some of the issues that I have mentioned, in an attempt to proof and improve the Bill. We are obviously not opposed to its passage, because we need the changes that it makes, for instance to the timeline for the appointment of Ministers, and we need to allow a programme for government to be aired and shared before Ministers are appointed. If that is to happen in time for the mandate of the next Assembly, the Bill will have to go through. We are certainly not throwing any spanners in the works in respect of the timing, but we want to try to improve the Bill and make good some of the gaps and wrinkles in it.

Even in respect of the limited things the Bill does, we think more could have been done. Why should the First Minister and Deputy First Minister remain the singular appointments of two parties? Why not revert to the original Good Friday agreement principle of electing the First Minister and Deputy First Minister? Sinn Féin and the DUP no longer have a problem in going through the Lobbies together. They could not do so originally in 2007 when devolution was restored, which is why the whole system of appointing the First and Deputy First Minister had to be changed, but now that they can do that and now that they are happy to be an axis and be in a power pact, there is absolutely no reason why they should not. The First and Deputy First Ministers should be mandated by the Assembly. We have tried to secure such an amendment to other Bills. I do not know whether we will try it with this Bill, because we may concentrate more on the matters that are in it than those that are not.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This is a very serious discussion of cross-border crime in Northern Ireland. We must hear Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

The Secretary of State will know that the Treasury has already announced the closure of a number of HMRC offices throughout Northern Ireland. Given that HMRC does a very valiant job in tackling cross-border crime, what guarantees can the Secretary of State give the people of Northern Ireland that those efforts will not be reduced if the offices are closed?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am entirely confident that the changes relating to HMRC offices will not affect HMRC’s ability to tackle cross-border crime. Indeed, we will see an enhanced effort, not least because, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), the proceeds of that kind of crime can end up in the hands of terrorists.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can scarcely hear the Minister’s mellifluous tones, partly because there is too much noise and partly because the Minister understandably looked back at the person whom he was answering. His full visage should face the House—I feel sure that the House will benefit.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the Minister commit to meeting senior representatives of Northern Ireland companies who have serious concerns about delays and waste in the UK’s defence procurement procedures?

[Mr Wallace]

As a former aerospace worker, I know the extent to which delay can damage the supply chain. Under the leadership of our Defence Procurement Minister, we have improved defence procurement since I was working in aerospace and the previous Government were awarding contracts. I would be delighted to meet the heads of the hon. Lady’s businesses, and to ensure that they are getting an efficient service from the contracting Departments and that more business is done in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Given the complexity of an Order in Council in any circumstances and of the Bill that is being taken through the House at breakneck speed this evening, will the Minister please express some element of regret that neither the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee nor the Work and Pensions Committee had an opportunity to scrutinise them and report to the Northern Ireland Office before the Bill came to the House?

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it clear that nearly all the provisions in the order have been thoroughly debated in the Northern Ireland Assembly over a long period, and this House has given considerable scrutiny to the 2012 welfare reforms and is doing so for ongoing reforms in the 2015 Bill. I am happy to arrange for the hon. Lady, should she so wish, to meet officials from the Northern Ireland Office and the DWP to discuss in detail any concern she has about the order between now and the debate next week, if that satisfies her.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

First, I welcome the fact that we now have this Bill before the House of Commons. Had the Government listened to us some time ago, we might have saved a year in which we would we have saved the money that is now being returned to the Treasury. More importantly, we would have saved the damage that has been done to devolution. Apart from the costs involved, the stalemate that has arisen from the failure to agree the welfare reform proposals that we thought had been agreed this time last year in the Stormont House agreement has led to a budgetary crisis in the Assembly. During that stalemate, many of the spending proposals could not be undertaken, with a budget that we knew would have been overspent had we gone through to the end of the year. All that has played out badly in Northern Ireland with regard to the credibility of the Assembly.

This agreement, and the fact that we have now removed one of the most toxic issues that was affecting the work of the Assembly, namely welfare reform, is therefore to be welcomed. I am glad that we have now got this issue on to the Floor of the House.

[Lady Hermon]

The hon. Gentleman is a very senior member of his party, and rightly so—he has been in it for an awfully long time. Will he therefore give us some insight into the negotiations which—thank goodness, after all this waiting—managed to persuade Sinn Féin to agree to this deal? What was the turning point? What was the significant agreement with Sinn Féin whereby it agreed to welfare reform? I am intrigued to know what his new leader, or future leader—[Interruption.] I would be delighted, in fact, if there was a new leader, but will he just answer the question instead of speculating about the leadership?

[Sammy Wilson]

If the hon. Lady had thought of the trend that there has been since the DUP became the largest party in Northern Ireland, she could easily have identified the reason why this has happened. We were told that we could not get devolution because Sinn Féin would never divorce itself from violence, and then it did; we were told that we could never get policing and justice devolved because Sinn Féin would never support the police, and then it did; and we were told that we could never get welfare reform through because Sinn Féin was opposed to it, and we faced it down on that. The record of the DUP should not be compared with the record of the Ulster Unionist party when it was the largest party in Northern Ireland, because it rolled over to Sinn Féin whereas we have stared it down on all these issues and succeeded. I cannot get into the mindset of Sinn Féin. All I know is that a year ago it was saying that under no circumstances would it accept Tory diktats on welfare, and now it has asked the Government to bring forward this legislation, to take it through the House of Commons, and to implement the changes.

I welcome that, because our party never accepted that the devolution of welfare was necessary. Given the parity principle, we would always have been caught in a position whereby we either reflected Westminster legislation or paid the cost of it, which, even in terms of different systems, was never going to be sustainable. Now we are where we are, and I am pleased about that, because it removes one of the biggest barriers to making devolution work in Northern Ireland. I hope that we have now laid the foundation for more workable devolution in future, because we are a party that believes in devolution and wants to see it work. I think that the sacrifices we have made indicate that.

Secondly, this measure brings immediate benefit to Northern Ireland. It removes the toxicity that existed around welfare reform, but also enables us now to move on to deal with the issues that need to be dealt with.

The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) said that one of the reasons he is not happy is that the agreement does not provide for jobs. I want people in my constituency to be off welfare and to have the dignity of work, but the hon. Gentleman said that the deal does nothing to get people into employment. However, it paves the way for corporation tax changes in Northern Ireland, which will be a job creation measure. Half the savings made from fraud and error in welfare can be retained by the Northern Ireland budget. The agreement specifically says that we can deal with training and youth unemployment. A capital financial package will be available for shared education and shared housing, which will create jobs for people in the construction industry. The Northern Ireland Executive will also be able to keep some of the capital receipts from the sale of assets, and they can be ploughed back into the economy.

The hon. Gentleman was, therefore, wrong to say that the Bill does nothing but penalise people on welfare without giving them an alternative. The Executive now have in their hands the means to provide some of the things that he and I are concerned about. I know that he was not making a cheap political point, because he has a record of being concerned about unemployment not just in his own constituency, but right across Northern Ireland. At least this agreement secures the resources by which some of those issues can be addressed.

Thirdly, although we cannot deviate from parity without there being some cost to Northern Ireland, the Executive have taken it upon themselves to look at where we could change some of the welfare issues and put our own imprint on the Northern Ireland welfare system. Over the next few years, £585 million will be devoted to just that. On cuts to the spare room subsidy, for example, we took the view that we did not have the housing structure to allow for the flexibility required in the housing market, so we have put money into exempting people from the benefit reduction that would have incurred. On the changes to rates—or council tax, as it is known in the rest of the United Kingdom—we have put £17 million aside so that low-income families will be supported and not lose out. Money has also been put aside for tax credit changes. The approach has been tailored. The Bill will go through—as has been agreed by the Executive, and asked for by the Assembly—with those flexibilities. It is a good deal, which is one of the reasons we will be pleased to go through the Lobby tonight in support of the Bill passing through this House.

Finally, there are still those who wish to conduct guerrilla warfare against the institutions in Northern Ireland. Some of them do so because they want to score points against other political parties. We have seen an example of that today. Last week, the Social Democratic and Labour party criticised Sinn Féin in the Assembly, saying, “How dare they dilute devolution by asking for this welfare reform Bill to be taken to the House of Commons? The House of Commons should have no say over it, because it’s a devolved issue.” Now that the Bill has come here, however, SDLP Members are complaining because the House of Commons cannot have a say on making changes. That was, of course, a convenient way of beating Sinn Féin.

Others, such as Traditional Unionist Voice, would have liked the Bill to have been delayed, because they hoped the whole deal would unravel as a result. They want to destroy devolution, despite all the benefits it has brought to Northern Ireland. For that reason, it is important that we address the issue urgently. It has taken long enough to strike the deal, and now that it has been struck let us deliver it for the people of Northern Ireland. Tonight the House of Commons can play a role in helping to improve conditions in Northern Ireland by passing this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ritchie]

My understanding is that the British Government, whose representatives are here today, including the Secretary of State, are claiming that that is the situation.

The people of Northern Ireland fought long and hard with political parties and both Governments to secure the democratic political structures. The SDLP wants to see the bedding down of those institutions through political stability; economic prosperity; greater devolution in respect of fiscal flexibilities, broadcasting and telecommunications; and the deepening of the north-south and British-Irish structures that were facilitated by the Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998. We do not want to see power removed from the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive to be given to the Secretary of State and this Chamber. That was not the purpose of the Act that we voted for in 1998, when power was given to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the hon. Lady just reflect on the past few months? If she and her colleagues have ever listened to the Stephen Nolan show on Radio Ulster, they will have realised that the prolonged arguments over welfare reform have, most regrettably, managed to bring the Assembly into disrepute. As a committed devolutionist—I know the hon. Lady shares my views—does she agree that unless we settle the argument over welfare reform, the majority of people in Northern Ireland might prefer direct rule? I am sure she would not want that, and it is not something that I wish for, but the issue has to be settled and the Bill will do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Elliott]

Yes, we will do that as well. The right hon. Gentleman pointed his finger at the Ulster Unionist party, saying that we were to blame for what we have. Yes, it is easy to lay the blame on the Ulster Unionists, but let me remind him that his party has been the largest party in the Northern Ireland Assembly for the past 12 years. We still have the IRA army council in place, the IRA with arms and IRA members shooting people on our streets. I would prefer it if that were not the case, but that is the reality. I say to him that he should not point the finger at the Ulster Unionist party. His party has had 12 years to make the running in Northern Ireland, and take a lead on the issues. It is time that we made some progress.

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking an intervention. I just want to prompt him to pay tribute to a Nobel peace prize winner. We do not have many in Northern Ireland, but Lord Trimble is certainly one of them, and he gave very courageous leadership to the Ulster Unionist party when it needed it. I am speaking as one who has been in the Ulster Unionist party and who is proud to say that about him.

[Tom Elliott]

I thank the hon. Lady for paying that tribute to Lord Trimble. I agree with her, and I would pay tribute also to John Hume, another former Member of this House. Indeed, I also wished Peter Robinson a happy retirement here in this Chamber the other day. I think that all Members make a contribution to our society. David Trimble and John Hume took risks. I have to say that, for me, that sometimes went too far, but I said that at the time. I was open and upfront about the fact that I thought a better deal was on the table, but we are where we are. We need to progress, and we need to rid Northern Ireland of terrorism, paramilitarism and criminality. The fact that that has not happened yet is a huge failure in our society.

We need to ensure that welfare reform protects the most vulnerable in our society, and I hope that we will do that, but we will not know the workings of that until a few years have passed. Why have we wasted so much time? The welfare reform legislation passed through this House three years ago. Why have we wasted time, money and energy in Northern Ireland by not progressing it? I do not agree with all the welfare reform changes, but that reform is here. It is part of our society, and we should be moving forward. It has cost our society in Northern Ireland dearly. To see that one only has to look at how the health waiting lists have spiralled over the past few months. We are told that that is because money is coming out of healthcare to support welfare institutions. We could not progress the way we were going.

In Northern Ireland we have our fair share of the most vulnerable in society because of the decades of our troubles. We need to protect those people but we also need a practical, sensible review and we need reform. We could not continue as we were. People need to be realistic and accept that we need to build our economy in Northern Ireland the way the economy is being built everywhere else. We are all happy to play our part in that—I do not think that any Member in this Chamber would disagree—but we need society to play its part as well. We need people to accept that if we are to build a consensus in Northern Ireland, it has to be genuine. We have to rid our society of those criminals who are fuel-laundering, those who are still out shooting people and those who rule by the gun and the bomb. We cannot allow that to continue, and we need society to stand up to those people and say, “Enough is enough.” We need to move forward.

I am pleased that we are progressing with welfare reform. I heard some of the detailed explanations given by the hon. Member for Foyle. I will not repeat that detail, but there are many aspects of this that will be challenging for society in Northern Ireland over the next number of years—not least will be the challenge for other Departments as to where the £585 million will come from over the next four years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wallace]

As much as I might like to say that the Chancellor rings me up to consult me on such major issues from time to time, I, like the hon. Lady, will have to wait and see.

I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his kind comments about me and the Secretary of State. I want to place on the record that without the Secretary of State’s determination and patience this deal may never have happened. Patience is a quality that many politicians do not possess, but she certainly does. [Interruption.] I am always for a good career move, but it is true.

It is tempting to follow the hon. Member for North Antrim down the path of his speech about Unionism and the sovereign Parliament, but I shall resist doing so. Suffice it to say that I will help him to lobby the Mayor of London for more buses from Wrightbus in his constituency, and I will do everything I can to help him and Ministers in the Executive to facilitate jobs to mitigate the losses at Michelin. Ministers from the British Government are all here to help job prospects in Northern Ireland, and I will continue to do so.

I say to the hon. Member for Foyle that we had to move forward on the issue of tax credits and welfare reform in Northern Ireland. As I said earlier, the fact is that there was no consensus, and in the end it was important to resolve this issue. Northern Ireland could not continue to lose the money every day and every week because it could not implement the welfare changes that people deserve.

[Lady Hermon]

The Minister has talked about the issues that have attracted consensus and those that have not. He will know that the Stormont House agreement did reach consensus about dealing with the legacy of the past. So much so in fact, that in late October the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was circulated with draft clauses on dealing with the past. What on earth has happened to them? Have they been scuppered by the deal on welfare reform?

[Mr Wallace]

The agreement refers to continuing to try to address the legacy. I wish that was covered in the Bill and that we were dealing with it now—I and the team have spent a lot of time working on that draft legislation—but the issue has not gone away. We need to deal with it, and we will continue to consider the options. I ask the hon. Lady to recognise that the Northern Ireland Assembly still has the ability to get on and deal with the legacy should it so wish. I urge it to start that process, because we cannot just move on in relation to welfare and leave the legacy issue behind. I agree with her, and I will be pressing the parties to take forward that issue.

Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill (Allocation of Time)

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I very much welcome the fact that there is now a broadly based acknowledgement among the Northern Ireland parties that the financial sustainability of the Executive is crucial for the success of devolved power-sharing government, and that that requires the implementation of welfare reform. This has been a long and involved debate, but I am glad we have got to the right destination in the end.

I believe it is necessary to adopt this fast-track procedure to ensure that welfare reform is no longer an issue that is undermining the political process in Northern Ireland, as it has done over the past four years. I believe it is necessary to take this approach if we are to implement the agreement reached at Stormont last Tuesday, and I believe it is necessary that we take this approach to underpin the stability and survival of power-sharing devolved institutions at Stormont.

The proposed legislation is a fundamental part of the agreement reached last week. If we do not get it on to the statute book and continue with the implementation of last week’s agreement, there will be a very serious risk that devolution would collapse, leading to a return to direct rule. A resumption of direct rule would inevitably mean many items of long and complex primary legislation being taken through by Order in Council month after month, potentially year after year. Not only would that mean denying such legislation the scrutiny in the Assembly, but it would inevitably take up large amounts of parliamentary time.

I do not propose to detain the House for long on this procedural matter, but it is important to understand some of the background to the Bill in order to emphasise its crucial significance and the crucial importance of getting it on to the statute book as soon as possible.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State has chosen her words very carefully and very deliberately, describing rushing through all the stages of a welfare reform Bill in one day as “exceptional”, “not ideal” and “absolutely necessary”. Where does she think the emergency comes from? Who is going to renege on last week’s very welcome agreement? Which party is going to renege on it? Why should we have emergency procedure today and rush through all the stages?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I will explain, the primary legislation enabled by the Bill has had extensive scrutiny over the last four years. The Order in Council published alongside the Bill reflects the proposed welfare legislation in the Northern Ireland Assembly that fell as a result of the tabling of a petition of concern. That proposed legislation had a First stage, a Second stage, a Committee stage, a Consideration stage, a Further Consideration stage and a Final stage, and there was an extensive debate on a legislative consent motion. It has, therefore, had extensive scrutiny, including 21 weeks of cross-party talks this year and last year. It is not an ideal way to legislate, but the proposed legislation, at its heart, has had extensive scrutiny.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the arrangement could have been reached some time ago, but the important thing is that we have got to a sensible compromise. As for this being a good deal for Northern Ireland, I agree that the combined financial package—£2 billion under the Stormont House agreement and a further half a billion pounds or so under this agreement—will help Northern Ireland and will be a good deal, but it is aimed specifically at the challenges that are unique to Northern Ireland, such as dealing with peace walls, paramilitary-related crime and the terrorist threat.

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me to intervene a second time. I wonder whether she could enlighten the House as to what exactly persuaded Sinn Féin, after all these weeks of arguing, rowing and opposing the welfare reforms, to do the deal last week? What was the turning point?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid the hon. Lady will have to ask—

Parachute Regiment: Arrest

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My hon. Friend knows all too well, having stood here at the Dispatch Box doing this job previously, that what serves the peace process is the reckoning of the past, closure for victims—but also justice for victims—the pursuit of former terrorists, if they have not been convicted, and the pursuit of anyone else. That is what serves peace. Recognising the huge sacrifices made by members of the security forces and the civilian population of Northern Ireland is what actually brought us to the negotiating table. It is what defeated the terrorists, and that is why we need to make sure that, when we move forward, we do so in a spirit that is measured and recognises where justice needs to be done, but also that we do not indulge people who would like to revise the past, as if it were some big conspiracy against people.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

We often hear from the Prime Minister about the importance of having enshrined the military covenant in law in this country, and he is quite right to boast of that: it is a wonderful thing to have done. In that context, will the Minister guarantee that the Ministry of Defence will pay for all the legal costs—for legal advice and top legal representation—of any former soldiers who served in Northern Ireland who are charged in connection with any inquiry, such as Bloody Sunday, or any inquest, such as those announced for Ballymurphy?

[Mr Wallace]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. The MOD recognises that we have a duty of care to all current and former members of the armed forces. As an essential part of that, we will pay for independent legal advice, so that they are able to defend themselves when they face legal proceedings or matters related to their former service, so the answer is yes.

Paramilitary Groups (Northern Ireland)

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

It is certainly clear from the assessment that in many cases the leadership of the various organisations do not control or sanction what their members get up to, but I can assure my hon. Friend that Northern Ireland has an outstanding police service, supported by the intelligence services, and they will pursue crime wherever they find it. They do a fantastic job. They will pursue the individuals responsible for the sorts of crimes outlined in the report with as much vigour and determination as they pursue anyone else involved in wrongdoing in Northern Ireland.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am very grateful indeed to the Secretary of State for making her statement to the House. I am relieved that, with regard to the Provisional IRA:

“The PSNI and MI5 do not believe the group is actively recruiting.”

However, what I am worried about, and very curious about, is how much seepage there is from the Provisional IRA to dissident republicans. Is there a high or low level of seepage? What is her assessment?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will accept that these are very sensitive matters and that it is not appropriate for me to go beyond the assessment. Naturally, the risk of seepage between the Provisional IRA and dissident republican groups is always a risk about which our intelligence services and the PSNI are acutely aware. One of the reasons these groupings remain a threat to national security is the danger that their expertise might find its way into the hands of dissident republicans. That is a risk that we all need to be aware of.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has secured extra funding for the Police Service of Northern Ireland over the last few years, and the Chief Constable is confident that should evidence present itself murders will be pursued to the correct outcome, such as bringing people to justice.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I think the House would like to hear from the Minister what pressure the Government are putting on the Libyan authorities to secure compensation for all those hurt and maimed and for the families of people murdered by Libyan-sponsored IRA violence. It is the morally right thing to do. Will he confirm that the Government will seek compensation as soon as there is a Libyan regime to negotiate with?

[Mr Wallace]

The Prime Minister has indicated that he is keen to seek further compensation for victims, but of course it is hard to negotiate with a Libyan Government that are not functioning or in existence. I know that a Select Committee of the House is looking at the arrangements made between Tony Blair’s Government and the then Libyan Government.