School Sport

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess, and to follow the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe), who is an exceptionally well respected former Minister for Sport. I certainly agree with the spirit of many of the things raised in his speech, although I will perhaps tweak one or two points in my contribution.

I speak very passionately on this subject because I benefited from sport. I went to a very challenging school. We were bottom of the league tables and, as I mentioned in last week’s debate in this Chamber on sport and tackling youth crime, two of my friends spent time at Her Majesty’s pleasure. Sport kept me active and by the end of the day, I was too tired to cause any trouble—although some people might say that as I am now a Member of Parliament, I took an even worse path.

I was a councillor for 10 years prior to becoming an MP, during which time I spent four years as the lead member for leisure. I therefore have a lot of first-hand experience of dealing with these sorts of issues in the community. As we know, sport can play a very positive role. It helps to promote a healthy and active lifestyle, which is important in tackling the increasing concern about obesity. Sport channels young people’s energy, boosts self-esteem and provides enjoyment, friendship and personal fulfilment. It can have significant benefits for focusing good behaviour and as I said, that was something I saw at first hand when I was growing up.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is a strong supporter of school sport both from his past record as a councillor and since he has been a Member of Parliament. He made a point about prisons. I was the Minister responsible for prisons. What is the busiest place in a prison in terms of people getting involved in sport and physical activity? The gym. Such things made me think as I do about what sport can do for people.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I absolutely agree, and I will come to that point in a bit more detail later.

I will touch on three points: first, the school sports partnerships; secondly, what is physically going on in schools as we speak; and, thirdly, wider community access to schools. I shall then put my personal requests to the Minister.

On school sports partnerships, I raised a number of concerns in debate that led to the Government changing their position. I support the principle of the school sports partnership, but a premise that attracted a lot of criticism of the scheme is that it did not necessarily drive up levels of competitive sport. That was a flawed assessment because, generally, if someone is very good at sport, it is probably because their parents are that way inclined and encouraged sport from an early age by providing access to sports clubs.

School sports partnerships were good for people who were not naturally inclined to sport or gifted at it, because they offered a wider breadth of sporting opportunities. For example, I remember that we played football pretty much every week at my school, which suited me because I liked football. However, some people were not necessarily enthused by the opportunities that football presented. The main driver behind the school sports partnership was that it brought in other sporting opportunities and showed people that there was something out there for everyone. There were encouraging signs that it was making a difference to the majority of children who are not necessarily naturally gifted at sport.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong, but I think I just heard him say that school sports partnerships did not drive up participation in competitive sport. Can he tell me the figures he bases that statement on?

[Justin Tomlinson]

The point behind my remark was that when the Government were making their judgment about whether the school sports partnerships were delivering value for money, they looked only crudely at the number of children taking part in competitive sport, which was two in five children. That figure did not change. However, what did change significantly was the number of children who were not doing any sport at all who then took up sport. They might not have been playing in regular leagues outside school, but they were at least being active—whether that was just for the two hours a week or whether it led to other opportunities.

For example, when I was touring my constituency, we saw encouraging signs; people were doing things such as cheerleading and street dancing, which were incredibly popular but because they were not strictly sports in the traditional competitive sense, they were not included in those crude statistics on competitive sport. However, those people were being active. When I was the lead member for leisure, I did not care what people were doing, as long as they were doing something that increased their heart rate. I also say that with my hat on as vice-chair of the all-party group on heart disease. We are keen to encourage such activities.

The change in position allowed nine months for the school sports partnerships to, in effect, go to schools and secure funding. I do not recognise the point about cuts to the funding; it is just that the funding is no longer ring-fenced. The challenge that remains for school sports partnerships is that not every school necessarily identifies sport as a priority. The Swindon school sports partnership has managed to ensure that around 20 schools have signed up to carry on in pretty much the same format as before. However, a number of schools have decided that there are other priorities for that money and, by removing ring-fencing from the funding, they are free to make that choice. I think that such a choice is wrong for those schools and when I meet those who work in them, I regularly push the benefits of providing sport. We must deal with that challenge. It comes down to individual heads; it is fair to say that if a head has a personal interest in sport, it is certainly pushed to the forefront.

[Jim Shannon]

Does the hon. Gentleman consider that there is a role for private investment and partnership with schools as a way of getting more money for the programme? Is that something he has considered and, if so, how does he think it will work?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I absolutely do, and I will come to that point shortly.

There are some advantages to the changes that have been introduced, but we need to work out a way to ensure that schools continue to see sport as a priority. There was another reason why we had to look again at how the school sports partnerships worked. In my constituency, it was a very good partnership, but we heard in the debates on the subject that in other constituencies people who work in schools were saying, “They aren’t delivering very much. I am very passionate about sport as a head teacher. I would like to employ my own choice of sports coach directly.” To a certain extent, therefore, some schools now have better provision, because they have gone directly to the person they think can provide sporting provision in the areas where they had gaps.

It is also fair to say that the school sports partnerships that are still in existence, including my own in Swindon, have had to step up their performance, because that cheque is no longer guaranteed. They have to go to schools and make a pitch about how they will deliver additional benefits to them. There is still a role to play, however, in helping those SSPs to be in a position to deliver improvements, because, by and large, they are sports enthusiasts and are particularly good at organising sports events. They are not necessarily geared up to be a semi-business—a not-for-profit business—so there should be a role to provide additional help in that way.

In response to the intervention, I would like to see SSPs identify additional partnership opportunities, not just through the private sector, but through working with local authorities, the local NHS and sports forums and local sports clubs. To give a good example, if a school offered only football every week and wanted the SSP to bring in street dance, it should bring in not a one-off coach, but representations from street dance clubs, so that children who enjoy a taster session in school then have the opportunity to join a club and take up the activity on a regular basis. Local authorities can play an important role in that regard. The equivalents of the lead members for leisure and the key officers should sit down with the SSP organisations and say, “You can bring the following people to the table and we’ll help co-ordinate that,” so when the SSP then pitches to individual schools, it will be able say that it will not only provide two hours of street dance, but will bring in supporting clubs and give advice on nutrition and on how to do a variety of other beneficial tasks above and beyond the obvious reasons for it to go into the school. That is about asking what more we can do to make SSPs seem much more attractive to schools and to keep sport as a priority.

On what is happening in schools at the moment, I would like to see changes in relation to two particular challenges. The first is the cost of insurance, which is an issue that I have raised in a number of debates. The majority of teachers are relatively young, and young people are very expensive to insure. We need to be able to bus pupils around in order to promote school games and take them to learn outside the traditional school environment. Many teachers are young and new recruits are getting younger, so the cost for schools—it is a burden—is incredibly expensive. I keep urging the Government to consider a national deal; schools throughout the country purchase things, so surely, as a collective with huge economies of scale, we should be able to get a better deal from the insurance industry. I encourage that.

I have been told by an inspirational local physical education teacher, Julie Lewis, about a second element in relation to insurance. In order to drive a minibus, the driver needs a certain D-class element on their licence. Julie already had that—she is of a similar age to me—so it was a relatively simple process. She just had to go to the local authority and carry out a simple test. She passed and was then able to drive the minibus. The younger teachers now have to do three days of training, which costs about £2,000, so that is another burden that the school has to weigh up: when budgets are tight, is it worth releasing teachers for three days? All too many schools like the idea of doing it, but they cannot afford it, either because of the cash or because they do not have the time to release teachers. We need to look at that.

PE teachers also face a dichotomy in relation to their priorities. Julie told me that she is extremely keen to provide after-school clubs. The children love them and embrace them, and really want to take them up. If she could offer as many sessions as she would like, they would all be full. However, she has to plan them at the same time as she should be planning her lessons, and planning her lessons to make sure that they are delivered in the correct manner is what is judged by Ofsted to determine whether she is a good PE teacher and whether the school is a good school. There is a clash; one area is being judged and rewarded, but it is as if she has to magic up a way of providing the after-school classes that might be of most benefit to the children.

I have talked to other teachers. A friend of mine worked in a challenging school in Oxford. During his first year as a qualified teacher, he was full of enthusiasm and provided a huge range of after-school sports clubs. They helped with behaviour and with tackling crime in the local area, because the children were not hanging around street corners straight after school. They were doing something constructive and positive. My friend then had the opportunity to do one-on-one tuition, for which he was paid. He could not be in two places at once. His heart said that he wanted to do his bit for the children he was there to inspire and for whom he played a positive role, but his brain said that he wanted to go on holiday and that he needed to buy a new laptop. In the end, the financial reward prevailed.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

Is there not an opportunity for national governing bodies to get coaches to help teachers do such things? One of the things that we looked at was the possibility of coaches from a wide range of different sports running after-school clubs, paid for by national governing bodies.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I absolutely agree and I will build on that point shortly.

Schools have some opportunities at present. The school Olympics principle, for example, is fuelled by next year’s Olympics, which will give us a wonderful opportunity to drive up participation, particularly because they will advertise on the television a huge variety of new sports for people to try. When I was growing up, we very much followed the television. We played football predominantly, but out came the cricket bats when the cricket was on and out came the bikes during the Tour de France, and when Wimbledon was on, the tennis rackets would come out for the three days that the British participants lasted.

I have a slight plea on this issue. It is not just about getting people to be healthy and active, although that has to be the priority. There is a chronic shortage in this country of coaches and—this is often overlooked—of volunteers. When I talk to sports clubs, they tell me that they can normally find somebody to organise things, but that they cannot find a club secretary or treasurer, or someone to sort out all the insurance.

[Simon Hart]

As a former parent governor of my local school, Tavernspite, and a keen volunteer cricket coach at it, one of the obstacles that I came up against was the Criminal Records Bureau checks. There was one CRB check to be a parent governor and another to be a cricket coach. For all but the very determined, it was difficult to volunteer.

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[Justin Tomlinson]

That is a valid point and I know that the Minister is championing the cause to change that situation. I would like to hear more about it.

To return to the issue of coaches as volunteers, when school games are being organised, the best athletes are selected to represent the school. Incidentally, my school always came last in everything; we were so short of people that I ended up having to do four events in one day and got progressively worse. The key is that we should also identify those who have not been selected to participate and ask one of them to act as the coach on the day, another to organise the promotional posters, and another to be the treasurer and organise payment for the minibus. There are all sorts of other roles, so later, as they grow up, those people could fill the massive gaps in community sport. That is something that we should champion.

I welcome the decision to fast-track troops into teaching. When I talk to school head teachers, particularly in primary schools, they tell me that one of their biggest challenges is that not enough teachers are enthusiastic or confident enough to be able to carry out a wide breadth of PE. It is often the case that the last person to leave the staff room suddenly finds themselves delivering the lesson. One would hope that troops would be sports-minded—they are certainly well attuned to physical activity—which could help to fill a major skills gap.

On the issue of sport helping behaviour, I have visited schools with challenging behaviour problems and, time and again, have seen them use sport as a reward incentive to maintain behaviour in the school. It is amazing that when a child misbehaves and is told that they cannot go to the after-school football or street dance session, that is not only the first time that they misbehave, but the last time, because such sessions are the hook for a lot of children.

Turning to the community, I hear the points about the loss of playing fields and I fully support the call to protect them. There is, however, a further challenge. The vast majority of schools that were built post-1997, which is true of pretty much all, bar one or two, of the schools where I was a ward councillor in a high-density, new-build housing estate, were private finance initiative schools, so they had wonderful playing fields, but after 4 o’clock, a huge amount of money had to be paid to use them. Even enthusiastic PE teachers could not use them, because they were not the school’s property after 4 o’clock, and the local community would have to raise money. They looked wonderful and the turf was great, but they could only be seen through the fence. That is something that we need to look at in future school building. Sports facilities need to be accessible both to the school itself—it is a crime that an enthusiastic PE teacher who wishes to provide after-school sports opportunities cannot do so because it is not the school’s facility—and to the community through sports clubs.

Opening up those facilities should be an absolute priority not only for sports clubs but for youth clubs. I have spoken in other debates about how in the old days, sports clubs dealt with competitive sport and youth clubs were at the other end of the spectrum, but they should be one and the same. Street dance is the classic example; it is not technically an ultra-competitive sport but is something in which young people wish to engage. We can use sport as the hook in the school facilities, and youth workers can come along to where children are being active and can provide the advocacy that youth clubs are normally good at.

I get frustrated when local authorities make mistakes with opportunities. As I mentioned in last week’s debate, Stratton parish council identified £4,000 to provide extra activities for young people. Rather than consulting those young people and asking them what they want to do, the council will spend the £4,000 on providing mobile graffiti walls—nothing more than a training ground for more graffiti artists to wreak havoc in local communities. What the council should have done, to build on an earlier intervention, was to say, “Right, we’re going to open up our schools or community centres on Friday and Saturday evenings and pay for coaches”—it could be a football coach or a street dance coach—“who can then come into our community, and we will only charge the children 50p.” Something—a nominal fee—needs to be charged so that the children take ownership, but without pricing them out, and they can come along and participate for a couple of hours. We would then see children being active and positively engaged in something constructive, and we can build on that. Remarkably, when I go to schools and ask, “What do you want?”, they say they want organised sports provision and opportunities, not silly bits of plywood that they can spray some paint on. That frustrates me. Local authorities and Government are always hard-pressed for money so whenever we have an opportunity to spend relatively limited amounts of money, let us ensure that it is on engagement. Everything should be judged on the maximum number of people participating in whatever it is that gets them active. As I have said on a number of occasions, I do not care which sport it is, as long as something is going on.

Another opportunity that we need to look at is when schools close, as populations shift. In my town, schools are closing in the older housing estates and opening in the new estates, as young families shift across the town, and we need to insure against the loss of not only the playing fields but the buildings. We had a fantastic success story in Swindon involving a successful gymnastics club, with 450 people a week participating. The club was so successful that its landlord served it an eviction notice because the neighbours were annoyed at all the parents turning up after school and taking all the car parking spaces. They got together and said, “Either it moves or we all move”, so the landlord said to the club, “You are very good at paying your rent but I’m afraid you are off.”

To find a new gymnastics facility in any town is a challenge, because high walls and lots of parking are needed. Through the Swindon sports forum we identified a £4 million sports hall that was only a couple of years old and about to be bulldozed; a school was being knocked down because a brand-new £25 million school was being built a few miles down the road, so the sports hall would have been lost. To cut a long story short, we managed to arrange for the gymnastics club to take on that sports hall, paying a commercial rent for the facility, and the old school was bulldozed around it. The club took on the sports hall, which was bigger than needed, so the facility also has the Kirsty Farrow dance academy and the Leadership martial arts club. Now, instead of 450 children a week being active, we have 2,000, with parents dropping children off, one for Esprit gymnastics, one for martial arts and one for the dance academy. We were so close to bulldozing that facility, and 1,550 children —on top of the initial 450—would have missed out. Instead, some joined-up thinking was driven through our sports forum, in which 60 different sports clubs sit together with the council officers. We married together the collective thinking—“This is our challenge, we need a facility”—and the opportunity, not only to the benefit of the gymnastics club but of the other clubs that have piggybacked on it. We should do that wherever buildings or facilities might be lost.

I conclude with my pleas. Collectively, we need to sort out the challenges of insurance, whether the basic cost of insuring people or the cost of being able to drive a minibus, as well as the time. We need to support school sports partnerships to remain a priority for schools, if they are good enough to justify that, and, if so, to give them help and support with business plans and building up their partnerships so that they can offer not only two hours of street dance but additional benefits. We must never forget the need for volunteers and coaches, as well as for getting people to be active in one form or another. We need to make facilities accessible, affordable and open and, wherever possible, not to lose them as populations change.

Calculators in Schools

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this excellent debate. I thank her for being kind enough to allow me to make some supportive comments.

As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on financial education, I absolutely support this call about calculator use because the absolute cornerstone and bedrock to making the next generation of consumers savvy, quick-thinking and financially literate is having a good grasp of mental arithmetic. Without that, it will be impossible for us to deliver improved levels of financial education.

I also speak as a former employer. Time and time again in my business, we almost had to start again with mental arithmetic when we employed people. Mental arithmetic was important for my business, as it is for businesses right across the country. When I meet representatives of businesses of different sizes that frustration is borne out by experience.

Mathematical ability is also incredibly important for personal confidence. This week, I visited an excellent school, Sevenfields, in my constituency. It has transformed itself into an outstanding school, and the main driver behind that is confidence in subjects such as maths, driven by mental arithmetic. Old-fashioned that may be, but it is making a real difference in that school. It is also important to foster personal confidence in students to embrace mathematics. We have been struggling for too long to acquire the number of students who wish to take on maths and progress further. If people can conquer mental arithmetic, they then have the confidence to progress further in maths. In common with my hon. Friend, I am a bit of geek in this respect.

Confidence in maths drives forward the ability to acquire entrepreneurial skills. We see from the “Young Apprentice” TV programme that those young people with good mental arithmetic do particularly well in many of the tasks, particularly haggling. I recall from when I was running my business the number of times when I met suppliers who simply could not do mental arithmetic. They relied on a calculator, which they were embarrassed to use in front of me and which allowed me to run rings round them, and make reasonably good profit margins. That is a serious observation, because that was not just a one-off, but happened time and time again.

For the sake of driving up maths standards, improving confidence and supporting our ongoing financial education campaign, I urge the Minister to get behind this campaign to promote mental arithmetic skills.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)]

I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this interesting debate on a topic of great importance to us all. I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) about the importance of mathematics not just in providing progression to more sophisticated maths, but in day-to-day operation of haggling and securing a good deal. I know that what he said from his own business experience is absolutely right, and I am sure that that lack is more pervasive in our economy than people suspect.

My hon. Friend’s excellent opening speech reiterated many of the same points that she made in her article published in The Sunday Times last week entitled, “Cancel the calculators and make pupils think”. I broadly agree with her analysis, and in particular her astute observations on how calculators are overused in classrooms in England. I also agree with her suggestion that there is much that we can learn from the best-performing nations and regions around the world; her analysis of Britain’s position in international rankings when it comes to maths; and her conclusion that we need to look again at the way in which calculators are used in primary schools.

Getting mathematics teaching right at an early age is of prime importance, and securing the foundations of mathematical understanding early at primary school will help our pupils to gain mathematical fluency and achieve at GCSE level and beyond. The modern work force demands people with high levels of mathematical ability as employment opportunities become increasingly technological and the importance of the internet continues to grow. There is a growing demand for people with high-level maths skills to become the scientists and engineers of the future. There is an increasing need for people with intermediate maths skills in a whole range of disciplines. That is why the Secretary of State has said that it is the Government’s intention that within 10 years the vast majority of young people will study maths from the age of 16 to 19.

My hon. Friend for South West Norfolk is right that this country is an outlier in the number of students continuing to study maths beyond the age of 16. As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, the UK is falling behind internationally. I make no apologies for reminding other hon. Members—it is my hon. Friend who I am reminding—that over the past 10 years the United Kingdom has dropped down the international league table of school performance, falling from eighth to 28th in maths. PISA results show that many countries are racing ahead of the UK in mathematical attainment. Pupils in Shanghai are working at a level in maths that is about two and a half years ahead of that of their peers in the UK. Pupils from Singapore and Hong Kong are regularly introduced to some mathematical concepts much earlier than their counterparts are in England.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I saw that happening on a visit to a Taiwanese school. The reason behind it was that the Taiwanese felt it was so essential to their economy to embrace new technologies. They thought that that was the way to improve mathematical and science skills, which was so important to them.

[Mr Gibb]

My hon. Friend makes his point very eloquently. The debate is not just about the individual’s success in life—there is much evidence that those with advanced mathematical skills secure better employment prospects and higher standards of living—but that as a country we need to get it right, which we have not yet done.

As the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study—or TIMSS—study of maths has shown, those pupils in Singapore and Hong Kong go on to outperform pupils in England in international league tables. As has been said, if we are to compete internationally, it is crucial that we equip our young people with such essential maths skills.

The foundation for more advanced mathematical and scientific study is built in primary school, where pupils can develop a love of, and a fascination with, mathematics. Unfortunately, far too many children leave primary school convinced that they “can’t do” maths. Provisional key stage 2 data for the 2011 test year shows that only 80% of pupils reached the expected level in maths, and an even lower proportion reached level 5. Without a solid grounding in arithmetic and early maths in primary school, children go on to struggle with basic mathematical skills throughout their school careers and their adult lives. We cannot allow children to fall behind at that early stage. It is vital that pupils are fluent and confident in calculation before they leave primary school. We cannot expect children to be able to cope with the demands of complicated quadratic equations if they do not have quick and accurate recall of multiplication tables. Indeed, it is not possible to do long division, without being fluent in them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words. The Vaughan is an outstanding school, and the diocese and the Department are determined to do everything possible to ensure that it remains outstanding in the future. One of the changes that is being made in the other place by my noble Friend Lord Hill is a change to the provision that relates to governors, to ensure that parent governors and foundation governors who are drawn from the ranks of parents accurately represent the parents’ wishes, because part of the Vaughan’s success has been the close relationship between the parents who love the school and the teachers who have made it so great.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

5. What consideration he has given to offering two GCSEs in mathematics.

[The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)]

We are reviewing the national curriculum requirements for mathematics and will take decisions on the content and number of maths GCSEs in the light of the review. A pilot of a pair of mathematics GCSEs—applications of mathematics and methods in mathematics —began last September and continues to 2013. Evidence from the pilot will also inform our decisions.

[Justin Tomlinson]

As part of the review, may I urge the Minister to provide an opportunity to include financial education as part of the syllabus?

[Mr Gibb]

My hon. Friend has worked tirelessly on financial education, and the all-party group on financial education for young people, which he chairs, is about to produce a report, following its inquiry into the issue. As he has said, financial education is important, and we will look carefully at his report when it is published and its conclusions will be taken into account as part of the national curriculum review and the review of personal, social and health education.

School Funding Reform

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

That is a blast of good sense from north of the Humber. My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating Swindon borough council on seeking to design and build a generic modular school at half the cost of a bespoke new design?

[Michael Gove]

Swindon council does a lot of things right, and that is just one more.

Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Richard Graham]

Yes. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that FE colleges have a critical role to play, as do some of the smaller, specialist training providers. A question for us all to consider—I am sure that my hon. Friend has done this in his own constituency—is the extent to which courses offered by further education colleges can be effectively tailored to the requirements of small businesses. Quite often, some of the courses—this is where the questions of the framework structure and the sector skills bodies come in—are fairly specific and technical, and small businesses often require an apprentice to take elements of a business administration course, elements of a marketing course and elements of other courses. So there is a question about whether there is an adequate structure of training to cater for small businesses, but I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that further education colleges have a crucial role to play.

Moving away from apprenticeships in general and their take-up nationally, and coming on to the small businesses sector specifically, I believe that there are just less than 5 million small businesses in the UK, of which more than 3.5 million have sole proprietors. An astonishing statistic is that 97% of UK companies employ fewer than 20 people, and 95% of them employ fewer than five people. That shows us that one of the key drivers in all our constituency economies is the extent to which small companies that employ fewer than five people feel able to take on an additional person.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

As a former small business owner myself, I recognise the challenges. For nine years, I wanted to get an apprentice, but I did not understand how to do so. The Government can play a proactive role in providing information to explain just how easy it is to recruit an apprentice. My suggestion, which I have raised on a number of occasions, is doing it through the annual business rates bill. All the information can be provided at a relatively low cost.

[Richard Graham]

That is an interesting suggestion, and one that I am sure the Minister will want to respond to in due course. The idea of using the annual business rates bill as an opportunity to explain how simple it is to take on apprenticeships would, I think, be widely appreciated. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) is right, and I was just about to come on to the question of education and information. There is undoubtedly a gap that needs to be filled.

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[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on securing this important debate for Westminster Hall today. He has covered most of what I was going to say, but I would like to make a few comments about my experience in the manufacturing industry and with apprenticeships.

When I was 15 years old, with no O-levels and without even passing the 11-plus, I left secondary school to become an apprentice craft engineer. I studied at night school for three nights a week until I was 25, and finished up with two higher national certificates. Those are the type of jobs that we need now. We have stacks of young people leaving university with higher qualifications but in engineering we do not have the people coming through to make the products that the academics and the people from university design.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I commend my hon. Friend for making that point, because the statistics show that those from apprenticeship schemes have a much better chance of securing full-time permanent employment than graduates.

[Gordon Birtwistle]

My hon. Friend is correct. Anyone who has a skill in running, programming and setting computer-controlled machinery will never be out of work. In fact, in Lancashire, there is a big demand for such people, and some companies are paying golden hellos to steal operators from other companies.

In Burnley, on 20 June we are having a manufacturing summit at the brand new £100 million college, which is linked to a university that is also involved in advanced manufacturing—that is a small advert for what we hope to do. I am pleased to say that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills will be there, as will the managing director of Boeing UK, the chairman of AgustaWestland and many other big manufacturers, along with smaller manufacturers from north-east Lancashire. The event is about getting big and small manufacturers to come along to listen to the Secretary of State, but we have also asked local schools to give presentations and to bring students to listen to people in the industry, with a view to taking up apprenticeships.

At Business, Innovation and Skills questions this morning I asked about careers. It is vital that we instil in young people long before they reach 15 or 16 what the prospects in the work force are. Careers officers talking to young people at 12, 13 or 14 is important, because once they get to 15 and 16 it is too late for them to change their mind about becoming a doctor, vet, solicitor or barrister. They cannot have some careers because they do not have the qualifications, and cannot move into the subjects that might interest them in becoming apprentice engineers or entering manufacturing.

Burnley is one of the best places in the country for job vacancies. I spoke to the regional director of Jobcentre Plus, who told me that Burnley is one of the country’s brighter lights because vacancies have gone up by more than 30% since this time last year. That is a great result, but the vast majority of vacancies are for skilled manual workers, and the big problem is that we do not have a pool of out-of-work skilled manual workers. My son, who owns an engineering company, tells me that if a skilled worker is out of work now, he is no good and he will not be taken on. That is the situation, so we need people to replace those who are retiring. It is critical that apprentices come through to do the craft jobs, and work on machines for the products that go into advanced manufactured items such as jet engines and components for the nuclear and oil industries, where we are world leaders and sell across the world.

Emergency Life Skills

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I commend this fantastic speech. I raised the same subject in a Backbench Business debate recently, and I know at first hand what a difference it can make. On the specific point about PE, the actual training required is the equivalent of just one PE lesson. Therefore, while we acknowledge that the Government are trying to streamline the national curriculum, we are not asking for very much, but it can make a real difference.

[Julie Hilling]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. He has had personal experience of the need for emergency life skills, and I am very pleased that we can work together to try to get this issue higher up the agenda.

Smithills school aims to widen the scheme so that, during the school holidays, parents and siblings are able to learn these vital skills, too. The teacher responsible, Adrian Hamilton, told me that learning how to save a life in an emergency really engages the kids. He believes that ELS go a long way towards helping them become better citizens, and that learning ELS should be an expected part of what happens in schools.

The Government talk about wanting to compare themselves internationally, but ELS are already a compulsory part of the curriculum in France, Denmark and Norway. They are included in a number of states in Australia, and in the US they are part of the curriculum in 36 of the 50 states. Seattle is supposed to be the best place in the world to have a heart attack. It is impossible to get a driving licence or graduate from school in Seattle without being able to do CPR. Imagine a situation where one is rarely more than 12 feet away from somebody who can save a life. I hear, though, that there is a down side, because it is a very bad place in which to just faint.

Schools deliver ELS in a variety of ways and settings. Commonly, pupils enjoy the lessons, which increase confidence and self-esteem, and which are particularly important for children who have special educational needs. Sheringham Woodfields, a school for children with complex needs, told the Education Public Bill Committee about the enormous sense of achievement its pupils feel when they realise that they can save a life. One of its pupils received a bravery award when he saved somebody in the Norfolk broads. One of the most telling submissions to the Public Bill Committee was from Archbishop Ilsley Catholic technology college in Birmingham, which told us that it decided to teach ELS after a parent died from a heart attack in front of his family. The school felt that something positive should come from that tragedy. St Aidan’s primary school in St Helens told us about a year 6 child who was in a restaurant with her parents and 15 other adults when her eight-year-old brother started to choke on his food. He went blue and virtually collapsed at the table. All the adults stood around not knowing what to do, but the year 6 child jumped into action, put her training into use and saved her brother’s life. If she had not been there, 15 adults might have stood by and watched a little boy die in front of them.

I do not have time to list all the things that people have told me, but a common theme is that children who were taught ELS went on to practise them and either saved the lives of family members or helped in serious situations. A couple of weeks ago, I was in a meeting with Tabitha. When Tabitha was 17, a week before the summer holidays, she ran to join her friends and teachers during a fire drill. She does not remember anything else that happened, but apparently she collapsed with heart failure. She had been born with a congenital heart condition, but no one knew about it. Fortunately, her school secretary had been taught CPR, which they administered until an emergency responder and then paramedics arrived. Tabitha made it to hospital with all of her facilities still intact. She had emergency surgery and made a full recovery. Tabitha is now a voluntary emergency responder and is working hard to get ELS taught in schools.

I also met Beth at the same meeting. Beth is the mother of Guy Evans, who sadly died at the age of 17 in 2008. Guy was riding his motorcycle when he had a sudden cardiac arrhythmia. He fell off his motorbike and laid there while his friends stood around not knowing what to do. They were told by the 999 operator not to touch him—people thought that he had had a motorbike accident. If only they had been taught emergency life skills, they would not have faced the trauma of watching their friend die and experienced the trauma of living their lives with the thought that maybe, if they had known what to do, Guy would still be alive. Beth has been campaigning ever since to get ELS into the school curriculum and into driving tests.

Cardiac arrest does not discriminate between young and old, or between gender and race—it can happen to the very fittest of us. On average, heart attacks are suffered by men in their 50s, and so should be of keen interest to many MPs in this House. On average, it takes approximately five to 10 minutes for an emergency ambulance to arrive. For every minute that passes in cardiac arrest, the chance of survival falls by 10%. CPR increases survival and prolongs the time a person remains shockable. If a defibrillator is used to administer a shock, the survival rate increases to 50%. When we watch “Casualty”, it looks as though CPR is actually the thing that makes people suddenly wake up—it is not. CPR keeps blood and oxygen pumping around the body, which means that the heart can still be shocked back into a rhythm. All the time that people are not breathing and their hearts are not pumping, parts of their body and brain are dying. CPR keeps people alive and keeps them going until they can be shocked, and until they can get to hospital.

I have been told about a mother who collapsed at the school gates. Instead of everyone standing around not knowing what to do and watching her die, children sprang into action and administered CPR. The school brought out their defibrillator, which they had purchased for £1,000, and saved the mother’s life. Just last week, 15-year-old Patrick Horrock had a heart attack in Hindley leisure centre, which is just next door to my constituency. A member of staff performed CPR and another used a defibrillator to restart his heart. Patrick is alive and well because people knew what to do and had the tools available to do it.

I had a meeting with some local firemen last week. They are Heartstart tutors and deliver classes to adults and young people in the fire station. They told me that approximately 7% of people know any first aid. Together, we are going to take ELS into local schools. They told me that two young people had been involved in saving a dog. As their reward, they were invited to the fire station for the day. The thing that those kids enjoyed most during that day was learning how to do ELS. It is something that children enjoy doing—it enhances them and gives them the confidence to save a life.

The firemen told me something that really made me think. One reason why we do not act when someone collapses is because we are scared of making things worse. Has their heart really stopped? Am I going to do them damage? The firemen told me that if a casualty stops breathing, “They are dead, and you can’t make them any deader.” That phrase resonated with me. If we do something, we may be able to save that life; if we do nothing, they are dead.

As the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) has said, CPR can be taught in two hours. That is the equivalent of one PE lesson—one cross-country run, or two hours a year. That is something like 0.2% of national curriculum time. Surely we can afford that amount of time to save lives.

I will end with a statement from Abbey Hill primary and nursery school:

“A lot of our children are brought up in an extremely deprived area and are not always adequately supervised. ELS gives them the confidence to deal with an emergency, should one arise, and no adult was around...The silence in the room when the children are watching the DVD from the resource pack is remarkable! They watch it avidly and are always keen to take part in the sessions. They are also very impressed when we get the dolls out to practise resuscitation and can't believe they get to have a go on a ‘real live’ doll!”

I could say a great deal more, but I will finish. I ask the Minister to put emergency life skills in the national curriculum. If he will not, what will he do to promote the teaching of emergency life skills in schools and throughout the whole of education, in youth centres, colleges and community colleges? Will he also encourage the Government to think of other ways of embedding such skills in society, perhaps as a compulsory part of the driving test?

It is frightening to think that something like 7% of the population believe they could save a life. Many of us have done life-saving—I did it many years ago—but do not feel confident about using those skills. However, having now had less than half an hour with a dummy and looking at what to do, I now feel that I could do something—I could get that defibrillator off the wall, because instructions on exactly how to use it are written on the packet.

We need people in this country to feel confident about being able to save a life. I ask the Minister to consider that we could save 150,000 lives a year—just think how many lives that would add up to over anyone’s political career. I hope that the Government will do something—they could go down in history as a Government for saving people’s lives—and I urge them to do so.

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[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his positive comments. I have often been guilty of sending in requests, and I understand what he said about being inundated, but surely there is no greater or more important skill to equip a young person with than the ability to save someone’s life. I am sure that replacing one cross-country run a year would be welcomed across the board.

[Tim Loughton]

I sympathise with my hon. Friend’s suggestion, and I want schools to implement it, but not because an edict from Ministers says that it should be part of the national curriculum so that they think, “Where can we fit that in?” I want them to do so because it is a good thing to do, and a good way of engaging young people who might be more difficult to engage. The subject might be a good way of enticing their interest in the classroom.

During the consultation, we received proposals that the compulsory part of the national curriculum should include chess, knitting and pet care, which I am sure are all worth while. I am sure that my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady would argue that they should not have the same priority as life-saving skills, but people argue that a whole load of things should be a priority. I want schools, and heads and teachers who know their children, to have the freedom to deliver the subjects that they believe are most important and that children will most relate to and benefit from. That is what the Government are trying to do.

[Tim Loughton]

The hon. Lady has answered her own question. I entirely agree about the importance of the subject, but we are trying to make the national curriculum tighter and more concise with a smaller range of subjects, giving more freedom to teachers to take on that subject, which I agree is a priority. We want a slimmer curriculum, and we do not want to add more subjects to it. However important the subject, it would add to the national curriculum.

There can be no more important training than that which allows someone to save the life of another who is injured, ill or otherwise in danger, and we must do all we can to ensure that children learn the basic skills that they might need in case of emergency. We all agree on that, but the best way is not through the academic base of knowledge that the national curriculum contains, but through the broader curriculum. Just because the skills are not specified in the national curriculum does not mean they will not and should not be taught, or that the Government are downplaying or undervaluing them. The reverse is true. I implore all schools to ensure that their pupils develop the personal and social skills they need to become responsible citizens, and to lead healthy and safe lives, and that includes being able to encourage and enable others to lead healthy and safe lives.

[Justin Tomlinson]

On the specific point about outside organisations, such as the British Heart Foundation, surely the Government could play a role in providing information so that schools can access it. When I visit my schools, they agree that it is a good scheme to take up, but do not necessarily know how to do so. Perhaps the Government could be proactive in encouraging that.

[Tim Loughton]

That is the point that I intended to end on. It is a fair and practical solution. We are not proposing to make the subject, along with pet care, knitting, chess and thousands of other helpful suggestions, part of the core national curriculum, but there are other things we can do. The hon. Member for Bolton West asked me to look at other ways of promoting the subject, and we will do so, for example, by asking individual MPs and Ministers to go into schools and ask what they are doing to teach first aid, and whether they are part of a local appeal to install a defibrillator in the town centre, and are ensuring that their children know how to use it. We can also send strong messages in our work on the PSHE review.

I think the hon. Lady suspected that we would not be able to deliver her request today, but that in no way downplays the importance of the issue that she has rightly and usefully raised. There are many other ways of promoting the subject to ensure that we have a far better educated and engaged population in our schools who will take on those skills because they want to, because it is the right thing to do, and because they will all benefit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

1. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

21. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

In anticipation of my hon. Friend’s question, and because I know of her passionate interest in and advocacy of this subject, I have asked the National Apprenticeship Service to take further the work that I know she wants to be completed on offering a new motor race technician qualification. We will do that work, because we understand the points she makes, the value of that industry and its importance to our whole country.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I strongly welcome plans to expand the apprenticeships scheme further. The biggest barrier to the participation of small businesses is the lack of information, so will my hon. Friend consider moves to include promotional material in the annual business rates mailing?

Post-16 Education Funding

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point. One thing that I am unhappy with is the system of accountability for post-16 education that we inherited. I believe we need a sharper system of accountability post-16 and, in particular, that system needs to focus on outcomes for the very poorest. One problem we inherited from the previous Government was that we did not have the information necessary to see how institutions were performing. It is only now that we know, for example, that only 16% of students, in the last year for which we have figures, managed to secure five good GCSEs including English, maths, science, a modern foreign language and a humanities subject. The fact is that those students eligible for free school meals did not succeed at anything like the same level as their wealthier contemporaries.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I welcome plans further to expand apprenticeships for post-16s. Does my right hon. Friend agree that small businesses could be encouraged and informed of these schemes by including promotional material in the annual business rates mailing?

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I understand from my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning that we are doing just that with the National Apprenticeship Service.

Independent Debt Advice

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thank my hon. Friend for reiterating the point that I am trying to make, which is that the cut is ill thought through and ill-timed for places facing an uncertain financial future. Unemployment in the north-east is rising, youth unemployment is at a record high and one in three young people in my constituency are out of work, compared with one in five nationally. At the same time, public sector workers face redundancy, the VAT rise and increasing fuel and energy prices. People will only get into more financial difficulty. It is shocking that at a time when increased demand on personal debt advice services is inevitable, funding for those services should be cut. It is also of concern that we are likely to lose highly skilled and trained staff who have built up a wealth of knowledge and expertise in helping people. Eight staff members in Newcastle are being made redundant, which is deeply worrying and shocking.

As I am sure the Minister is aware, in February 2010, the National Audit Office concluded that the face-to-face debt advice funded by the financial inclusion fund delivered good value for money. Indeed, the NAO found that the financial inclusion fund project was helping more people at slightly less cost per person than originally planned, and that the advice given was well regarded by those receiving it. That has certainly been the case in Newcastle, where 90% of clients who filled out a feedback form said that they would recommend the citizens advice bureau debt advice service to somebody with debt.

I recently saw at first hand the excellent advice services provided by the CAB during a special advice service day at a local community centre in the west end of Newcastle, the area that suffers the highest levels of deprivation and personal bankruptcy. The CAB brought together a series of advice services under one roof and took them out into the communities suffering the most. It was an impressive and productive day, and I know that it helped an awful lot of people in my constituency.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I support that point. I did a similar joint exercise with the citizens advice bureau in my constituency, which trained my staff and me so that we, who are in some cases the first point of contact, could address the issues and work in conjunction with the CAB. I fully support that action.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I agree. I too have been working closely with the CAB and taking its advice. The difficulty is that the office is losing eight staff members and will struggle to provide the same level of service. The suggestion that such expertise and advice can be delivered by a Member of Parliament comes from cloud cuckoo land.

The advice service day exemplified the importance of the CAB’s services and the fact that it can reach out to people. The CAB knows that people will not use telephone or online advice services. They need face-to-face, personal advice, because they cannot manage the paperwork and the complexity involved in dealing with debt issues.

For all those reasons, I have written to the Chancellor to urge him to rethink his decision or, if it is suggested that a fund continue, to ensure that face-to-face debt advice through the CAB continues to be properly funded. I believe, as I have said, that the problems in places such as Newcastle will only get worse; they must be seriously addressed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

I think we are getting bogged down by this. Training our staff and ourselves so that we can guide people in the correct direction for debt advice is probably more important now than ever, and that is the exact point that I was trying to make.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Percy]

We seem to be getting bogged down, but I will give way one more time before making some progress.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. In the spirit of trying to work together and helping Opposition Members, we need to be clear that this strengthens the argument for citizens advice bureaux. Help on the telephone and online cannot help provide training to other people who assist the most vulnerable. That supports the argument.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Perhaps Opposition Members will now reflect upon what some of us on this side of the Chamber are trying to do.

I shall move away from the help and assistance that I am trying to ensure that my staff are able to give people who contact me, and on to some of my concerns. The move away from a face-to-face debt advice service to a telephone or internet-based service has already been commented upon. I have bitter personal experience of debts. A few years ago, I tried to access assistance on some debts and, as much as I do not like to air my washing in public, it was incredibly difficult to access the correct advice on where to go with particular problems. I accrued debts through funding my postgraduate studies, as is the case with many people—in no way am I alone in that. [Interruption.] It was postgraduate education, which has had fees for a considerable number of years and is not affected by any current changes. It was incredibly difficult to access advice on where to go. As the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North has said, it is not always easy to interact properly with someone in a telephone conversation, and it is difficult to talk about one’s personal financial situation. Talking with somebody over the telephone is no substitute whatsoever for talking with someone face to face.

In support of the point made by the hon. Member for Makerfield, when searching for debt advice, particularly online, it is unclear who provides it at a profit to themselves and who does not. If a company calls itself a national debt or advice helpline, the natural assumption is to conclude that it is a charity, when in fact, as others have commented, it is out to make profits from people’s debts.

School Governance

Justin Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to introduce a debate, which I believe is timely, on school governance. School administration faces radical reform. More schools are becoming academies, maintained schools face the prospect of changes in local authority control and free schools are on the agenda. In my opinion, the role of governors and governing bodies has never been more important. Apart from reforms resulting from changes made by successive Governments over the past 30 years, the system has not really changed for many more years than that.

The current system can best be described as committee-based. It involves volunteers coming together at various times during the school year. Gatherings of the full governing body, which is normally about 20 people, are often less well attended, and the committee structure is designed around the various disciplines that school leadership teams feel should be addressed.

I am happy to say that the model is not prescriptive. Each school has the freedom to set its own committee structure. For example, Ridgeway school at Wroughton in my constituency, where I served as governor for four years until the end of 2009, had what can best be described as a typical committee structure. We had a committee to deal with the curriculum, a committee to deal with student matters and a committee to deal with finance and premises—the traditional division of work. However, despite the excellent work done by school governors, despite the fact that more than 300,000 admirable volunteers serve as school governors, and despite what they do to support head teachers, staff and the wider community, I believe that more can be done to improve the effectiveness of their work.

I am not the only one to say that. Head teachers and governors whom I know and respect, along with national organisations, are making similar representations to the Government. I am delighted that, under the White Paper process, the Government are committed to reviewing the efficiency of governing bodies and to working with organisations and schools to improve things. I welcome that, and today’s debate gives the Minister the opportunity to put some more flesh on the bones of that valuable commitment.

I say that the debate is timely because, under the previous Government, and despite a promising start, two years were lost during which there was much debate and discussion about the role of governing bodies. The former schools Minister, now Lord Knight, started that valuable work in 2008, but it was not until the eve of the general election that a report was published. I welcomed that report; it contained much that was positive, and I am sure that the Government will bear it very much in mind when building upon it.

I pay tribute to the work of governors, and particularly to the chairs of governing bodies. They are entrusted with huge responsibility, and it is all done voluntarily. With good practice, they work closely with head teachers and senior leadership teams. They are regularly in and out of their schools, and they help set the school strategy. However, like it or not, I increasingly feel that governing bodies have split into two tiers. The inner tier of governors has the time and wherewithal to become involved in the strategic management of the school; the outer tier does much of the monitoring work: going to the school, meeting the teachers, getting to know the link subjects and following things up excellently, but I believe that we now have a spilt between those two roles.

Those two roles are the essential tasks of a governing body. They help set the strategy, aims and objectives, policies and outcomes of a school, and they monitor and evaluate progress in achieving those things. I am not talking about the crossover between operational work and strategy. I readily accept that governors do not and cannot have a role in the day-to-day management of the school. That would trespass on the province of the professionals employed to do that job—I am sure that the professionals would echo that. However, if the role of governors is to become more pivotal, more work has to be done to focus their energy, talent and time on the two tasks that I have set out.

Time is a valuable commodity. It is given freely by governors. I hate to think of them spending their time at long and unproductive meetings, feeling that nothing much has been achieved. I do not say that that is universally the case, but I would be telling an untruth if I said that there were not times during my service as a governor in various schools when I came away from rather long meetings feeling frustrated.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this excellent debate. Between us, we represent the two halves of Swindon, so I am sure that we must often have spoken to the same people. Indeed, one governor to whom I have spoken supports what my hon. Friend says. I sum it up by saying that they are money-rich but time-poor in middle England. That is one of the biggest challenges, given that we presume that some schools would be awash with potential school governors. I wonder whether my hon. Friend has heard that from other governors.

[Mr Buckland]

My hon. Friend is right to mention middle England. Like me, he represents a seat with a wide spectrum of social indices. We have schools in leafy suburbs, schools in challenging areas and schools with a large percentage of black and minority ethnics. Time is a precious commodity wherever one lives, but energy is even more precious. It is incumbent on policy makers to lead the debate when it comes to focusing the valuable talents and energies of our school governors.

I mentioned earlier the frustrations that I felt about long and unproductive meetings, but those frustrations are often shared by head teachers. They spend a lot of time having to prepare long documents that are then read out to the governors. With the best will in the world, head teachers do not always have the time to do the important early pre-meeting circulation that can improve accountability. It is rather like a half-baked cake; it has good content, but it has not set in a way that makes it digestible. I am sorry to say that that experience is repeated throughout the country.

I do not criticise the entire system, nor do I criticise volunteering. I am entirely in favour of the system, but we must maintain the important principle at its heart. With a little adjustment here and there, and a little imagination, we could get it right. We should fit the system around the talents of the governors rather than trying to fit the governors into a rather tired and stale system. That is the essential point that I wish to make today.

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[Mr Buckland]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was putting it in a slightly more roundabout way. Although there will be less work on formal exclusion procedures, there will be a growth in other types of intervention, most notably in parental complaints. I know that every governing body will have a policy on complaints, but they must be assiduous in ensuring that those policies are comprehensive and understandable to the parents themselves.

I have used that example of special work as a way of engaging people in the community who have a talent, a training or an understanding of such principles but who may not have the time to commit to regular committee meetings. Although I do not want to see visitors coming into the school with no knowledge of the environment, people with specialist knowledge have an important role to play. If they get the training to deal with specific procedures, they can help out schools with particular challenges. One example is the big issue of finance that faces school governing bodies and head teachers. There is no doubt that the most onerous part of the duties of academies, free schools and maintained schools will be the maintenance of their budgets. It is already a big challenge for many schools. Some schools are getting it right; others are finding it more difficult. I am not casting aspersions on individual schools; I am simply stating a reality. Having spoken to many teachers and head teachers over the years, it is my understanding that they are always receptive and open to the sort of input that people with specialist financial training can provide. Although the Government are doing all they can to simplify financial structures, make financial information easier to understand and remove some of the labyrinthine documents that I have had to view over recent years in the context of SEN funding, I can see a key role for people with financial expertise in not just the strategic running of a school but in assisting head teachers and finance officers with the management of budgets.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Talking to school governors in my North Swindon constituency, I have found that many are attracted to the role because they are keen to get involved in operational issues, which they obviously cannot do. As governors who are either interested in or have the necessary skills to deal with the finance side are in chronically short supply, they often get put on to those committees and that drives them away. One of the biggest challenges is attracting people with the right skills, not necessarily parents, to come in and take that very important role in schools.

[Mr Buckland]

My hon. Friend has hit on a central issue in the debate on school governance—the balance between the need to have skills and the need to be representative of the wider community. The two are not mutually exclusive. Imaginative governing bodies—there are plenty out there—are striking that balance at the moment. Professionally skilled people who live in the local community, perhaps trained accountants, lawyers or doctors, can become partnership governors—if it is a foundation school—community governors or a representative of their local authority. We then balance them out with the parent governors, who play an important part in governing bodies. Indeed, some play a huge role in running their schools, which is welcome, but more can be done to engage the wider parental community. Loads of parents are out there who, because of their work and family commitments, do not have that precious commodity of time. However, if they were on a database of supporters, or friends, of the school, they would, I am sure, give what time they had on specific projects, such as enhancing the appearance of the school. They can be given something to match their own talents to enhance the life of the school. What better way of cementing the role of the school in the community than creating this wider support base?

Of course, with that support base comes the obvious imperative, which I know sensible governing bodies are addressing, of working with parent teacher associations and organisations that exist alongside them to help raise funds for various school projects. There needs to be a lot more constructive thought about how we involve the wider community in our schools. With the end of the centralised role of local authorities, that imperative for schools to look outwards as well as inwards has never been more important.

It is said that every governing body is only as good as its clerk. Again, all of us in this room and others elsewhere will have known some experienced and hard-working governing body clerks. We must not forget those clerks in this process. If there is to be the type of change that I envisage, they will need support, training and help to tackle what might become an increasing burden of work for them. The chair of the governing body should never be in a position where he or she is left, if you like, to do it alone. Succession management is a vital part of a functioning and effective governing body, and again more work needs to be done, if not to formalise best practice then to encourage it among governing bodies that might have had a chair for some considerable period and therefore need that change to continue in a successful vein.

The key points that I want to reiterate before retaking my seat are: respecting the difference between establishing strategy and operational management, a difference that has always been at the heart of the principle of school governance; understanding the different roles involved in the establishment of strategy and the monitoring of results, and trying to create a system that reflects the talents required for those different roles; and involving the wider community in the work of governing bodies in a way that not only fits in with people’s demanding lifestyles but that can do so much to enhance the life of our schools, and, importantly, encouraging everyone to move away from the idea that one or two meetings a term will cut the ice when it comes to modern school governance. There are so many better and more imaginative ways to do the job, and I am sure that my colleagues in Westminster Hall today will give more examples of that as the debate proceeds, hopefully stimulating an important and useful part of the process of change.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

That is absolutely vital. When we had a debate on disadvantaged children, I pointed out that in some ways pastoral care has been sidelined in recent years. Pastoral care is more important than ever, particularly where behaviour is concerned, and we all agree that we want to reduce the amount of exclusion.

I am straying a little from the topic, but I point out to the Minister that one of the biggest sadnesses of the changes in recent years is that classroom teachers, particularly in secondary schools, have often had their pastoral roles taken away and handed to other people in the school—albeit those people are often very capable—including learning mentors and teaching assistants. I have always believed that classroom teachers are not just educators but part-time social workers, occasionally parents and sometimes, depending on the class, just childminders. We have a multiplicity of roles as classroom teachers, and we have been losing our role in pastoral care. Hopefully, the Minister has heard my pleas on that issue.

I have identified some of the problems that I see at the moment, which I am good at, but I am not quite so good at identifying the solutions, which is why I do not hold ministerial office—that is a job for Ministers. The time has come, however, to question whether school governance arrangements work as they should, and if I had a solution, it would be, as I have said, to encourage federation.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend has made an exceptionally thoughtful contribution based on his experience in the teaching environment. Does he see federating schools as adding to governors’ time commitments, or will that approach reduce them because the work load is spread out?

[Andrew Percy]

That is a difficult question. In some respects, federating would lessen the burden, because some people who join governing bodies want to take on that strategic role regarding the direction of the school but do not necessarily want to be engaged in the nitty-gritty. I have sat on governing bodies where it has been about who can outdo the others and who has been in the school the most, but that does not mean that that person has necessarily been the most effective governor. There is a role for both kinds of governor, which might be achieved through federation. You can have governors who give their expertise to the strategic direction of education in a particular area, and you can have others who play the community role or a much more involved role in a particular school. That is something that we need to look at.

I will not speak for much longer, because I know that other hon. Members wish to contribute. I associate myself with many of the thoughtful comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon, who has a great deal of experience in this area. I am sorry that I will not be here to listen to the Minister, but I will, of course, read his speech in Hansard tomorrow.