Protecting Steel in the UK

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that contribution. The truth of the matter is that the Opposition would go harder and greener, faster. At least we are providing the support that Port Talbot needs.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

The Minister mentioned the potential consultation. Tata has a legal obligation to consult the recognised trade unions in a meaningful way to try to avoid redundancies. Will she ensure that those consultations take into consideration the plans that Unite the union, the GMB and Community have on the table to try to save the UK steel industry?

[Ms Ghani]

Absolutely. I spoke to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), who represents Port Talbot, over the weekend, and I reconfirmed that I will do everything in my power to hold Tata to account as it goes through the transition and to ensure that the consultation is as wide and deep as it can be.

Automotive Industry

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

It should come as no surprise to anyone that since the Conservative Government took power in 2010, the country’s automotive industry has been failed by a lack of investment or any long-term strategy. Since 2010, as set out by other speakers in the debate, we have experienced a 37% decline in British motor manufacturing. That is not insignificant and it is set to continue.

I am lucky enough to be a member of the Business and Trade Committee. A couple of months ago, I asked experts, on a panel discussing the UK’s industrial strategy, how the UK is placed to take advantage of the electric car industry, and about the levels of investment on offer to support companies settling in the UK and creating jobs here, compared with those in the US and across Europe. Put simply, their response was startling but it was absolutely correct. The response from each industry expert was that right now there is no comparison between what is on offer with the Inflation Reduction Act in the US and what is on offer in Europe. That is unfortunate, but that is the reality of where we are at this moment in time.

Looking at the statistics regarding this extremely important debate, the Conservatives have presided over a 37% decline in British motor manufacturing since 2010. There are 780,000 people employed across the UK automotive sector, with 182,000 of those directly employed in manufacturing. Annual UK car production fell by 9.8% in 2022, from 859,000 units to 775,014 units. The UK lags behind the rest of the world in terms of global automotive manufacturing relative to GDP, ranking sixth in Europe and 17th in the world in 2022. Eight in every 10 cars produced in the UK are exported, yet exports of cars manufactured in the UK fell by 14% in 2022. The EU is by far the largest export market for UK-produced vehicles—57.6% of vehicles produced in the UK are exported to the EU.

It is now three years since a gigafactory in my constituency of Wansbeck was proposed, and we have been hoping for the development of Britishvolt at Cambois. In the run-up to Christmas, at a time when people are wondering if they are going to get additional socks, Old Spice, Blue Stratos or new boxer shorts, I got a great surprise, finally. In December 2020, I got a call from a businessman who informed me that he was to develop a big company called Britishvolt, only two miles from where I live. It was as if all my Christmases had come at once: 8,000 much-needed jobs in an area like Wansbeck and like south-east Northumberland, covering different skills. They were secure, unionised jobs that were set out in the telephone conversation I had in December 2020, just prior to Christmas. We were going to get a big gigafactory. It was heralded at the time by Ministers as a perfect example of levelling up. It was heralded by the then Prime Minister as a project that would boost the production of electric vehicles in the UK, while levelling up opportunity and bringing thousands of highly skilled jobs to communities in our industrial heartlands. However, Ministers were not so keen to be attached to it when Britishvolt went into liquidation after failing to get the funds that it needed to continue. That included the money that the disgraced former Prime Minister told me from that Dispatch Box was “in the post”. I asked him at PMQs when BritishVolt would be receiving the £100 million from the automotive transformation fund. He rose, clenching his fists anxiously, and said that the cheque was in the post. I support the CWU and I support the strikes at the Royal Mail, but I am afraid that that cheque never arrived. I do not blame the strikes for that, although others may wish to do so.

That money never ever arrived for Britishvolt. I listened to a Member earlier who said that, had that money been paid to a community such as mine, it would have been frittered away. Let me tell Members: people in my community deserve as much investment in jobs than anywhere else in this country—whether it be a constituency led by the Conservatives or by the Labour party. My constituency deserves to be cared for the same as anybody else. If £100 million is being invested in one constituency, it is seen as fantastic; it should not be seen as being frittered away in a constituency such as mine. It is an insult to everyone in the south-east of Northumberland, and obviously to my patch.

The current situation, as the Minister knows, is that the Britishvolt project was bought by an Australian company, Recharge Industries, and it has given us a glimmer of hope. I asked the Minister a few weeks ago in Question Time whether we could meet up to discuss what support the Government could give to Recharge Industries. She agreed to meet, but we have not yet had the opportunity to do so, so I gently nudge her and say that I would welcome that discussion, because we need that gigafactory. Every industry expert says that we have the best site in Europe for a gigafactory. The only way that it will happen is if we get the support that we need from the Government. So far, it does not look as if that will happen. As I have said before, it would create 8,000 jobs: 6,000 jobs in the supply chain and 2,000 at the factory.

[Matt Western]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and ask him to excuse me for having to leave the Chamber temporarily. The point he is making is important. I was in his area earlier this year and saw for myself the new National Grid facility. With its interconnectors and the 3% of UK electricity potential coming ashore from Norway, it is, I agree, the perfect site for a gigafactory—alongside Coventry, of course.

[Ian Lavery]

I will not get into the football analogies that have been drawn on today. I am pleased that my hon. Friend has visited my constituency and seen for himself the potential that Energy Central has in Northumberland. Whether it is the two interconnectors or the Catapult facility in Blyth for renewable energy, we have a lot going on in the Blyth estuary region and, of course, in Wansbeck.

We need to give people some hope. We need to give my constituents the same sort of hope that everybody else is getting. I have sat patiently listening to Members who have lots of jobs in their constituencies. They are very happy with those jobs and the fact that things could not be any brighter. The hon. Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) said, “Come and have a look at Bosworth. It is fantastic.” I say to him, “Come and have a look at Wansbeck and see how that stands as compared with Bosworth.” I am delighted for the people of Bosworth, but he should be coming to my constituency to see the difference. It is just not fair.

[Dr Evans]

When it comes to the automotive industry, we should be talking about the whole of the UK. The hon. Gentleman speaks passionately about the site of the gigafactory. I know it well, because Britishvolt spoke to me about the site and what it has to deliver. I am more than happy to support him and his constituents, because this is about what the UK can offer to the rest of the world. The automotive industry here is a leader in doing that, so I will champion that, because it happens to be in my constituency. I would love to see it thrive in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, too, so that we have jobs and prosperity across the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Lavery]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but he should come and have a look. He can drive his electric vehicle up the road and call in to see the obvious difference between my constituency and his.

[Sarah Owen]

This is indeed a UK-wide issue in that if one of us succeeds in the sector, then we all succeed. However, we are talking about not just the jobs of the future that need to be created and maintained, but, unfortunately, the jobs now that need to be saved. There are just not the equivalent jobs for people to go to. Is this not a serious problem for the sector? It is not just about future jobs, but about saving the jobs now.

[Ian Lavery]

That is an excellent point. The reality is that we have lost 37% of production in 13 years. If there is not a halt to that and if there is not the investment that is required to maintain and then increase employment, we will see a total loss of the automotive industry in this country. It is as simple as that. Members have mentioned the different new rules coming into place, the state of origin rules and issues such as that. It is getting more and more difficult to maintain and increase what we have, on top of a 37% decline. The reality is that we do not have anything in place to make that transformation from where we are now to where we need to be. We need to have, I think, nine new gigafactories. We have one. In fact, it is half a gigafactory. That is just not good enough. We keep being told by the Conservatives that they are on the case, that the development is coming, and that they will be developing it—whether it be in Coventry, in the midlands or wherever; hopefully, the next one will be in my constituency—but it is not right to continue saying that we are on track. We are not on track. There needs to be some investment. We need the readies. We will not get people rolling up to different areas saying that they will build a gigafactory unless they have support from the Government.

We should look at the support that other countries have given to their businesses in grants and loans: CATL in Germany received a loan of €750 million, 22.8% of the total build cost; Northvolt in Sweden got €505 million, 17.1% of the build cost; GM in North America got $2.5 billion; Stellantis $1 billion; Tesla $1.3 billion; and Ford $884 million. Britishvolt, which had so much promise, were promised £100 million, 2.3% of the build cost. That was heavily caveated to the point where the company never had a penny of Government support.

We should take a look at the stats. What Labour is suggesting would provide a fantastic opportunity. It needs to be grasped. Regions up and down the country will benefit greatly as a result of what has already been described as turbocharging electric vehicle manufacturing. There could be £30 billion-worth of investment in the regions. We cannot turn that down, but we have to get on with it, which is why I hope that once the election comes and we get elected as the next Government this can be introduced without delay. It will make a huge difference to areas such as the north-east, which will have 13,000 jobs in vehicle manufacturing. Its share of the £30 billion in economic benefits from the Labour plans will be £2.45 billion. Areas such as the west midlands will have 57,000 such jobs, and it will receive £10.76 billion in its share of the investment. The list goes on. The north-west will have 22,000 jobs in vehicle manufacturing and £4.13 billion-worth of investment.

That Labour party turbocharging of electric vehicles is so important and so exciting, but my constituency has been absolutely battered. It has been bruised by the deindustrialisation programme of past Conservative Governments. The lack of an industrial strategy from the Government is still holding my area back significantly. Levelling up means an active state willing actively to protect and invest in the interests of people in held-back areas such as my constituency of Wansbeck. The area where the site would have been developed lies in Cambois, a coastal area in the parish of East Bedlington. Bedlington and Wansbeck—not in Blyth. Britishvolt was never in Blyth. A number of people have mentioned that today, and I have already mentioned it to the Minister a few times. Britishvolt was not in Blyth; that is a Conservative seat next door. Britishvolt is in Wansbeck—my patch. I thought that I would make that point once again, because it appears that very few people listen to what has been said.

We have a proud history in the industrial revolution. It is a coal area. My patch was coal town. We were built on coal. We were part of the great industrial revolution, not only extracting the coal that powered it, but being the birthplace of wrought iron rails in the Bedlington Ironworks, which triggered the railway age. Why should that industrial heritage not be continued at the site of what could be the heart of the green industrial revolution—the transport industrial revolution—simply because once again the Government have failed to deliver for the people of Wansbeck and south-east Northumberland? We need to do a lot better for my constituents.

Infected Blood Inquiry

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

“Oh, make it make sense. Please make it make sense.

Oh, why am I still here? Please make it make sense.

Why was it their turn to die? Please make it make sense.

Why am I chosen to continue this fight? Please make it make sense.

Another victim of this scandal dies without justice. Please make it make sense.

Another day of government silence. Please make it make sense.

An inquiry report full of recommendations. Please make it make sense.

Delays from the government. Please make it make sense.

After all, enough is enough. So please make it make sense.

Do we ever trust the powers that be? Please make it make sense.

Will I be another statistic of this greatest of tragedies? Please make it make sense.”

That was a poem written by my constituent Sean Cavens, a victim I first mentioned in this House back in February 2021, and what a personal, powerful and emotional poem it is. It sums up this entire tragedy in just a few words. Mr Cavens has been a tireless campaigner on behalf of those fighting for the justice they deserve, despite the setbacks he has faced over the years. He, like others, feels that he is not getting any nearer the closure of this great tragedy. Many experienced campaigners, like Sean, feel totally marginalised, and they fear dying before the full settlements are made.

When Sean Cavens first came to see me, we had a bit of an altercation. I invited him to come and see me. He came into my office and threw this contaminated blood tie on to my desk and said, “What’s that, Mr Lavery?” I did not have a clue. He said, “What does it represent, Mr Lavery? You’re the MP!” I said, “I’m sorry; I haven’t got any idea.” He said, “The black is for death, the yellow is for haemophilia, and the red is for HIV.” I promise you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I was taken aback by what happened in the conversation following that.

Mr Cavens went on to explain to me exactly what the situation was with the contaminated blood issue and, to be honest, I was a bit ashamed; I had not really taken it on board as a Member of Parliament, and I dare say I would be one of a majority in this House. Once I was fully aware of the situation, I began to educate myself about this absolute tragedy, which has been explained by many Members across the House. It is unusual to see Members across the House share the same views.

Lots of questions have been asked, and lots of detail has been given. The interim payments are positive, but they need to be full payments. Why on earth are people still dying? Why is it that one person is still dying every four days, many of them in receipt of interim payments, but a lot of them not having received interim payments yet? This cannot happen, man! Minister, it cannot be allowed to happen.

The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) mentioned the rule 9 requests. It would be interesting if the Minister could inform the House who has had rule 9 requests and whether he has received one himself. It has been promised that an arm’s length body will be set up. When will that be put in place? Who will be the chairman? Who is leading on this in the civil service since Sue Gray left? That is another question people are asking.

People are dying as we speak—mothers and fathers, uncles and aunties, brothers and sisters, friends and relations—and we need to get a move on. It is time to stop kicking this can down the road and to deal with compensation for the people who have been the subject of this tragedy.

UK Car Industry

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

My hon. Friend is once again the lady of steel, raising the topic on behalf of the whole industry across the UK. She will know about our recent work to look at procurement and the whole lifecycle of supply chains, and to ensure that we are doing everything we can in the UK. She knows about our commitment to the steel sector—we have provided billions of pounds-worth of support for energy costs, and now there is a huge amount of support for decarbonisation—and because of her work, steel will not be left out of any conversation when it comes to advanced manufacturing.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Recharge Industries, the organisation that bought out Britishvolt, is committed to building a gigafactory on the Britishvolt site in Cambois in my constituency. However, there is a huge issue with Northumberland County Council relating to a buyback proposal on the land of the proposed gigafactory. Will the Minister please intervene to facilitate discussions between all parties to ensure that we are not let down again at the site in Cambois, and that Recharge Industries gets every support it needs from the Government to build that gigafactory and bring 9,000 jobs to the north-east?

[Ms Ghani]

We are pleased that Britishvolt has been successfully acquired. We know that investment supports high-quality jobs in industries of the future, and we are determined to ensure that the UK remains one of the best locations. We look forward to learning more about the Recharge Industries plans, and we continue to work closely with the local authority—it is not a Government decision—to ensure the best outcome for the site. Because I am so keen to ensure that we continue to have good news in this sector, I will commit to meeting the hon. Member this week so that he can ensure that the information I am getting from my officials is absolutely correct. If there is anything more I can do in relation to the local authority, I will do my best.

Infected Blood Inquiry Update

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Quin]

I can confirm that. Most of us in our constituency capacities have been aware of the victims of this dreadful scandal. Through the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) and her APPG, I had the privilege of meeting representatives of those affected, and I am more than willing to do so again as we continue to progress our work.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

The Minister is absolutely correct—tens of thousands of people are fixed to their televisions today, expecting a resolution to this inquiry. I will tell him why they are disappointed: because they do not have time on their side. Hundreds have already died and more are dying on a week-by-week basis. They do not have time on their side. We need to ensure that the Government respond fully to this report and set out a clear timetable on actions from the report. Remember, people are dying as the Government are dithering and delaying.

[Jeremy Quin]

The hon. Gentleman is right that, alas, the victims continue to die. Sir Brian makes a comment in his second interim report that we do not know the full scale of the medical impact of what went on in the ’70s and ’80s. Conditions are, in some cases, worsening. The point is well made. The hon. Gentleman says that we must respond fully—we must and we will do so when we have done the work required.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I am happy to join him in paying tribute to his constituents at the MOD facility. The work they are doing is making a critical difference in the fight to combat Russian aggression in Ukraine. I know it is extremely appreciated, both by the President of Ukraine and his people. My hon. Friend is also right that it highlights the need for more investment, which is why we are putting £24 billion of investment into our armed forces and increasing the amount of kit that we manufacture here at home.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Q6. It is almost a year to the day since the then Business Secretary, the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), in a visit to the Britishvolt site in my constituency, promised the company £100 million and proudly boasted to the national media that he could not think of a project that better demonstrated levelling up. Yesterday, the company entered administration having received not a penny in financial support from the Government. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that there is not a single project in the country that better demonstrates the Government’s lack of industrial strategy, failure with levelling up and abandonment of the north-east?

[The Prime Minister]

First of all, let me say that my thoughts are with the company’s employees and families at this time, and we stand ready to support those impacted. Let me just outline to the hon. Gentleman what exactly has happened. We did offer significant support to Britishvolt through the automotive transformation fund—a considerable amount of funding—but entirely reasonably, and this is not something I expect the Labour party to understand, that support was conditional on the company receiving private investment as well, which is a sensible protection for taxpayers. Unfortunately, that did not materialise. It is completely wrong to take from that what else is happening in the north-east. Across the north-east, there is new investment in the new N-Vision and Nissan plant in electric vehicle manufacturing. That is a £1 billion investment in the north-east. Look at what is happening in Teesside on clean energy. This Government are committed to the north-east, and we will deliver more jobs and opportunity under this Conservative Administration.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Edward Argar)]

We are determined to reduce any unnecessary bureaucratic barriers that make it harder for our police, and our criminal justice system more broadly, to work as effectively as possible. Although I am not aware of any discussions about the specific issue that my hon. Friend mentions, or about the section 29 exemption for policing under the DPA, I am aware that the Police Federation is doing some work on the issue. If he is willing to write to me with more details, I am very happy to look into the matter further.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

T10. Figures unearthed by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) show that the Prison Service has lost more than 99,000 years of prison officer experience since 2010. That is startling. Is this absolute failure of Government policy what has caused the current state of chaos and crisis in His Majesty’s Prison Service?

[Dominic Raab]

I pay tribute to prison officers for the amazing job that they have done—particularly through the pandemic, but also more generally. We often pay tribute to frontline emergency service workers, but prison officers in particular are out of sight, out of mind. That is why it is so important that we followed the recommendations of the pay review body. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that since 2016 the number of full-time prison officers has increased by 3,662.

Infected Blood Inquiry and Compensation Framework

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Angela. It is fantastic that my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) has secured such an important debate. I will try to bring some human context to it. Plenty of facts and figures have been mentioned, which are 100% correct, but the victims, families and carers are furious. This happened almost half a century ago and onwards. They have every right to be not just frustrated but appalled and disgusted about the way they have all been treated and about what has been described as a cover-up.

This is not just a scandal and a tragedy but the biggest cover-up in the history of the NHS, and it is yet to be recognised by the Government. Lord Robert Winston described the scandal as the

“worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS.”

Former Conservative Prime Minister John Major said that in the eyes of the Conservative Government, those affected by the scandal simply had “bad luck”. Still, one person dies every four days in this nation as a result of this cover-up. That is not bad luck. Fancy telling somebody who has lost their parents, or somebody else in their family, that it was bad luck. What an absolute disgrace.

We have had the recent inquiries. The infected blood inquiry was called in 2017—five years ago—and it is certainly far from over. Of course, most Members have brought up the many things that are required. This is not just about those who suffered; it is about their families, the carers—everyone who has been affected. For example, what consideration have the Government given to the lifelong effect of infected blood on child development, as well as life expectancy? It is so damaging, but we hear very little about it.

A number of questions have been raised, but in the time that I have left, I will talk about the time when Sean Cavens, who is 41, came to see me. He was furious. I was unaware of the scale of the issue, and ignorant of the contaminated blood situation. He explained how difficult it had been. He gave me a tie—black for the dead, red for HIV victims and yellow for hepatitis C victims. Many of us have the ribbon on our lapel. Since then, I have been privileged to be part of the campaign and part of the APPG, seeking justice. This is an absolute outrage—it really is. We have to start making the feelings of the individuals heard—the feelings of the people who have died because of contaminated blood, who cannot speak for themselves. I hope that, in the very near future, we can come up with the answers to all the questions that my hon. Friends and colleagues have mentioned, and that we get these people sorted out as soon as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Burghart]

I understand what the hon. Lady is saying, but it is very important that Sir Brian’s findings are the final word on this matter and that the Government can respond to them as quickly as possible. The work that Sir Robert has done has obviously informed an enormous amount of work across Government to make sure that we can respond very quickly when the findings are produced in the middle of next year.

[Ian Lavery]

I am sure that an enormous amount of work is going on, but if we consider the recent trend of one individual dying every four days since 2007, my calculation is that if we have to wait until the middle of next year, in excess of another 50 people, all victims of contaminated blood, will pass away before they see even a penny of compensation. As a Minister of the Crown, the Minister cannot accept that that is fair to the victims. What message will he give to them?

[Alex Burghart]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard me pay tribute to everyone who is going through and has been through this awful experience. However, I hope he will appreciate that it is very important to ensure that what the Government might say now does not cut across what Sir Brian intends to say in his final report. Everyone can have confidence that that will be the final word and that the Government will then have the opportunity to respond quickly, to get everyone affected the support that they deserve.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I know that the Energy Secretary is working on a plan to help companies and individuals use energy more efficiently. We are also working on this across Government. I was delighted to speak to my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) yesterday, and I hope we will be able to start this going in No. 10 straightaway.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Q5. During the lockdown we clapped them, and then we laid wreaths for healthcare staff who had died on the frontline. How quickly our nurses have gone from the country’s heroes to this Government’s villains—offered a derisory 72p a week pay rise and then painted as militants for daring to have the audacity to ballot for industrial action for the first time in a century. Claps do not pay the bills, and neither does a 72p pay rise. Nurses are leaving the NHS in their droves, feeling abandoned by this Government. Surely even the Prime Minister agrees that the Government have their priorities wrong when they are uncapping the bonuses of the bankers and at the same time offering derisory pay rises to our treasured NHS staff.

[The Prime Minister]

First, may I say what a brilliant job our fantastic nurses do across the country? The figures the hon. Gentleman is quoting are simply wrong. The independent pay review body recommended a £1,400 rise on average, and that is what the Government are committed to delivering.

Heatwave Response

Ian Lavery Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

One of the lessons for all of us—not least in Scotland where the school term has finished—is the need to underline the dangers inherent in bodies of water to people who live by them or want to use them. My hon. Friend is quite right to say that the Thames might look like an innocent retreat from the heat, but beneath the waves there are strong currents and we often see people get into difficulty therein. She raises a good point about the PLA and I will take that away and see what more we can do to co-ordinate the work of the PLA and the riparian authorities.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

The men and women of the fire and rescue services were quite simply awe-inspiring yesterday, as they regularly are, but they cannot continue to work miracles. The impact of 12 years of cuts and austerity on the fire and rescue services has been an absolute disaster. They quite simply need much more critical investment if we are to tackle climate change correctly. The morale within the fire and rescue services is at an all-time low, but this week the Government offered their members a paltry 2% pay increase. It is absolutely outrageous to offer 2% to the men and women who, as the Minister says, were running towards the inferno yesterday. It is time we stopped clapping the great members of our fire and rescue services and started paying them.

[Kit Malthouse]

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, the pay of firefighters is not within the control of the Government. It is set by a body that involves both employees and employers, many of which are Labour-controlled local authorities. He may have strong views about the percentage that has been offered to the firefighters, but this is a challenge that he has to put down to some of his own colleagues, not to the Government. As he knows, the fire service has been remarkably successful over the last decade or so—or longer—in driving down the absolute number of fires with which it has to deal. Much of that is about its prevention work, which has been brilliant, but it is also about technology changes, not least in furniture composition. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is also aware that there is a White Paper on fire reform out at the moment, and I hope that he will make a useful contribution to it.