Pakistan: Freedom of Religion

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Thursday 28th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I will mention that later; it is a salient point, because whenever there is persecution based on people’s religious beliefs, there are human rights issues alongside it. The two things are not separate; they are married. If human rights are taken away, so are religious rights. The hon. Gentleman is right to put that on the record.

Since the 1980s, many thousands of cases have been reported, disproportionately affecting Christians, Hindus and Ahmadis. The blasphemy laws are used not only to silence dissent but as tools for personal vendettas and mob incitement. When I was in Pakistan in 2023, I met some of those who had been charged under the blasphemy laws. It was found that the allegations were vindictive and malicious: there was no evidential basis for them whatever. Such accusations have led to extrajudicial killings, violent attacks and mass displacements.

The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) referred to the plight of young Christian and Hindu girls who are abducted, forcibly converted to Islam and married to their captors. That is not merely a violation of their religious freedom but an affront to their dignity and human rights. In Sindh province alone, the practice has become alarmingly common, with inadequate legal protections allowing perpetrators to evade justice. There is something wrong with a society that can let a 14 or 12-year-old, or anyone who is still under the care of their parents, be taken away, abducted and married against their will. These are people of such innocence. It really disturbs me, and unfortunately we have reports that it is happening regularly in Pakistan.

Dignity First’s 2024 report highlighted more than 70 violent incidents targeting Christians, ranging from mob violence to forced conversions and abductions. In Jaranwala in Punjab, Christian homes and businesses were attacked in what appeared to be a premeditated assault on their religious identity. They were attacked and brutalised because they were Christians. Tragically, the authorities have often failed to bring perpetrators to justice. Christians have been subjected to accusations of blasphemy that can result in torture or death at the hands of violent mobs. The international community must demand that Pakistan take concrete steps to end the violence against Christians and provide legal protection for all religious minorities. This House believes in freedom for religious minorities, wherever they are in the world. We therefore ask Pakistan to conform to that, and protect religious minorities. I commend the organisation Alliance Defending Freedom International, which recently facilitated the rescue of Saima Bibi and Reeha Saleem, two brave young women forced into such marriages. Their release was a triumph, but countless others remain trapped in similar situations. Their cries for help go unanswered. We ask the Minister to do something about that.

I want to take up the plight of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community in Pakistan. We were fortunate that the last time we were with them we were able to meet some of the imams and people at high levels of the Muslim faith. According to the society in Pakistan, the Ahmadiyyas are a sect of Muslimism, but they do not conform to everyone else. Therefore, according to Pakistan law, they are heretics, if that is the right word to use, and outside the mainstream. There is something wrong with religious liberty if we cannot accept that people have the right to choose the god they wish to worship. That right should be protected. Declared non-Muslims by the state in 1974, Ahmadis face systematic discrimination, enshrined in law. There is no freedom there. Under ordinance XX, their religious practices, such as calling their places of worship “mosques” or referring to their faith as “Islam”, are criminalised.

The desecration of Ahmadi mosques and graves has become almost routine. The last time we were there, we saw pictures of churches, mosques and gravestones that had been destroyed, with the graves desecrated. Since 2021, more than 40 mosques and 421 graves have been destroyed or defaced. Violent hate speech against Ahmadis is openly promoted, with preachers inciting mobs to commit acts of violence. It is not just a matter of verbally objecting; they take it further. Mob violence ensues and many people are hurt.

Just two and half months ago, the September 2024 commemoration of anti-Ahmadi laws was particularly chilling, as it emboldened extremists and led to further attacks on that very vulnerable community. In the Parachinar Kurram district, Shi’a Muslims—another sect—face relentless attacks from extremist groups, including the Taliban and ISIS-affiliated organisations. Just this year, Parachinar was cut off from the rest of Pakistan due to a blockade, resulting in severe shortages of medical supplies, food and fuel. Eleven lives were lost because critically ill patients could not access essential care.

To pivot slightly, we also have an obligation to address the role of the Jamaat-e-Islami group in Pakistan. Not only did it play a significant role in the 1971 Bangladesh liberation war, but it continues to shape religious and political landscapes across the region. Its student wing is called Islami Chhatra Shibir. The organisation has been involved in violent protests, including recent clashes in Bangladesh over Government policies. Founded by Syed Abul Ala Maududi, Jamaat-e-Islami promotes the idea of establishing an Islamic state, and has been linked to extremist activities through connections with groups such as Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The legacy of Jamaat-e-Islami’s involvement in atrocities during the liberation of Bangladesh still casts a shadow over its actions today, both in Pakistan and Bangladesh. We want to see peace, stability and the democratic process working well, but there are those who work against that. In addition to the suffering of religious minorities in Pakistan, we cannot ignore the ongoing targeted violence against Shi’a Muslims in regions such as Parachinar. Located in Pakistan’s volatile tribal belt, it has been the site of relentless sectarian violence, including a recent attack that left 44 Shi’a Muslims dead at the hands of extremist Sunni militias and the Taliban. Those acts of violence are not isolated, but part of a broader pattern of persecution against the Shi’a community.

In August 2024, a conflict over land disputes escalated into deadly sectarian violence, leaving 46 people dead and 200 injured. Such violence is not isolated, but part of a broader pattern of targeted attacks on Shi’a Muslims, perpetuating cycles of hatred and division. The situation is urgent. These attacks are an affront not only to basic human rights but to the principles of religious tolerance and co-existence.

Let me give an example. Whenever I was in Pakistan, we went to the Church of Pakistan—equivalent to the Church of England—and the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Ms Rimmer), who is no longer here, went to the Roman Catholic cathedral. Both places were surrounded by guards, inside and out, and there were metal gates on the entrance. We had a police guard, along with members of the army, the whole time we were there. Simply being a Christian, or having any different religious persuasion, requires extra security in that area. I remember seeing the parishioners as they left the church to make their way home. When they walked out of the gates, nobody was there to guard them, while obviously we were being guarded, and I was very conscious of that.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend not only for securing the debate, but for his continuing efforts in this regard. He outlined a litany of attacks, which hopefully will be deplored by all, so will he join me in commending groups such as Open Doors, which will publish its annual watch list in January? That list itemises in good detail the types of attacks, criticisms and human rights violations that exist across the globe, particularly for those persecuted for their religious belief.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is right to put that on the record. Pakistan will feature highly in the top 20 countries where persecution is rife. It is one of those leagues that countries do not want to be at the top of. It is not like the premier league; countries do not want to be No. 1, or indeed anywhere in the top 20.

Pakistan’s legal framework ostensibly guarantees religious freedom, under its constitution, yet the reality is far different. It has a single national curriculum, and as recently as 2021 that was criticised for marginalising religious minorities. Textbooks continue to perpetrate stereotypes, fostering intolerance among the next generation. We have to be careful about what Pakistan does on education. We had hoped that during our visit we would see some changes and opportunities. Pakistan says it sets many jobs aside for people from religious minority groups, but the fact is we do not see that. There are many talented people who are Christian, Hindu, Shi’a Muslim, Ahmadiyya, Baha’i, or of a faith that does not conform with Pakistan’s state faith, and they could do the same job every bit as well.

Minority students are forced to study Islamic content, isolating them further in a society already fraught with prejudice. Economic discrimination compounds those challenges. Non-Muslims are often relegated to low-status jobs with limited opportunity for social or professional mobility. That systematic marginalisation keeps them in a cycle of poverty and vulnerability.

I give the example of those people—mostly Christians—who work in the brick kilns. We did a report on Pakistan’s religious minorities in the last Session and presented it to the Pakistan Government, but we have not had any response just yet. My Christian brothers and sisters are persecuted, beaten and abused in every way imaginable— I do not want to have to imagine it. Their contracts of employment are changed in such a way that they are contracted to the brick kilns for not just a couple of years, or perhaps 10 years; they are there forever. That report also highlighted that.

The United Kingdom has a proud history of championing human rights on the global stage. As we deepen our relationship with Pakistan, we must use all our influence to advocate for meaningful change, and I urge colleagues to join me in calling on the Minister to do so. I am pleased to see him and the new elected shadow Minister in their places, and I wish the shadow Minister well. I look forward to a consensus of opinion across the Chamber on this issue.

I have a couple of asks for the Minister—more than a couple; it always is with me, but I do so respectfully and in a positive fashion. Can we advocate for blasphemy law reform by working with international allies to pressure Pakistan to reform those laws, ensuring that they cannot be misused against religious minorities? Can we support victims of forced conversion and forced marriage by providing resources to non-governmental organisations working on the ground to rescue and rehabilitate victims? Can we press the Pakistan Government to implement stronger legal safeguards to protect vulnerable girls and women? The hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) referred to how women and girls are considered as second-class in many cases. If they are Christians, they are doubly second-class in that country.

Will we demand equal rights for the Ahmadi people by advocating for the repeal of discriminatory laws targeting the Ahmadiyya community and ensure that they are granted full rights as citizens of Pakistan? Will we provide humanitarian aid to Parachinar and urge the Pakistan Government to lift the blockade, restore essential services and mediate sectarian conflicts in order to prevent further bloodshed? There is a mediation role for our Government in this country. In Pakistan it is more important, but it does not seem to happen. Will we promote education reform by collaborating with the Pakistan authorities to develop curricula that promote inclusivity and tolerance and that foster a culture of co-existence?

My final request to the Minister relates to my private Member’s Bill—it will not be debated tomorrow because the focus will be on the assisted dying Bill. My Bill asks for a special envoy for freedom of religion or belief to strengthen accountability and to set the precedent on the international stage that we are not for turning on human rights or anybody’s freedom of religion or belief. I know the Bill will be put off tomorrow, probably until March, because that is how the system works. I have asked for meetings with the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, and hopefully those meetings will take place. I suspect that, had it not been for the wash-up after the sudden calling of the election, my previous Bill would probably have become law, because I had positive responses to questions I have asked in the Chamber on it. We hope that will be the case but, again, perhaps the Minister could explain the way forward.

I want to cast my mind back to when we were in Pakistan in 2018 and mention the blasphemy law. Most people here will know the case of Asia Bibi. She was accused of blasphemy. It was a vexatious, malicious, vindicative and untrue allegation, but none the less she was subjected to the law that pervades in Pakistan. She fought her case and was sentenced. When we were in Pakistan, we met two of the three judges who would make the decision. I am not saying that we did any better than anybody else—that is not why I am saying it—but we spoke about how and why the blasphemy law is used against people of a different faith. The Minister at the time— I think it was Mark Field—said, “Don’t say anything about Asia Bibi, because the two judges we met told us that they were of a mind to set her free.” We understood the process: do not say too much about it at home and let the process run. It did and she is free. She now lives in Canada, but there are so many other Asia Bibis who live in Pakistan and also deserve to be protected.

We must be clear that we stand on the side of the people of Pakistan and that hate and intolerance divide and hurt people. It is within our power to support stability and freedom through our influence and by being resolute in our commitment to the region. We cannot be idle. Long before I came to this place, a former Prime Minister said:

“The lady’s not for turning.”

We all know who that was. I suggest that we use that same spirit and that we must not step back from our commitments.

The challenges facing religious minorities in Pakistan are immense but not insurmountable. We have the tools, the influence and the moral responsibility to act. By joining forces with international partners, civil society organisations and the Pakistani diaspora, we can help to create a Pakistan where no one is persecuted for their faith. That is the objective of this debate; that is the goal that I hope we might be able to achieve. Let us not be silent witnesses to such atrocities. Let us stand together and be a voice for the voiceless, a shield for the defenceless and a beacon of hope for those who have known only darkness.

I always conclude my remarks in such debates with a scripture text. Proverbs 31:8-9 says:

“Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

Let us do just that today.

UK Air and Missile Defences

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd. It seems only a few minutes ago that you and I were last in Westminster Hall—you brought the 4.30 pm debate to an end yesterday afternoon, and we moved on, but here we are again, within minutes it seems. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst) on bringing forward the debate. I spoke to him last week when I became aware that he had this upcoming debate, and he is right to bring it to Westminster Hall for consideration. We must recognise the importance of UK air and missile defences and of us in Parliament collectively making a clear pledge.

The Ukraine conflict, in tandem with the sustained attacks on Israel, has illustrated—in a way that none of us wants to see, but that has unfortunately become a reality—the need for strong and robust air defence. On Israel, I will just say that it is good news that a 60-day ceasefire with Hezbollah has hopefully been agreed. We hope that the peace agreement will stand firm and can last 60 days, and possibly longer.

As hon. Members may be aware, the leading air defence company Thales in the UK and perhaps the world is based in the constituency neighbouring mine, that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), although he tells me that the majority of the workers are my constituents. I am thankful to this good local employer for not simply providing skilful, gainful employment at a very decent wage, but offering incredibly helpful apprenticeships. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East and I met Thales back in August, we pushed for apprenticeships, and we were pleased that the company was approaching the issue constructively. Those who gain an apprenticeship have their student fees paid, because Thales wants to retain those apprentices for the long term. One worker, who happens to be my constituent, has won the Northern Ireland apprentice of the year award, which is an indication of how much Thales does for apprentices. The use of local suppliers also means that more people than just those on site owe their employment to Thales’s innovation and excellence. The company’s design and production of air defence capabilities in Northern Ireland directly employs more than 800 people, and contributes £81 million to Northern Ireland’s GDP.

I am pleased to see the Minister in her place, and I look forward to her support for our requests for a long-term commitment. It is also a pleasure to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), in his place, and I know he has made numerous visits to Northern Ireland; indeed, he will probably comment on that when he makes his speech. We appreciate his past and ongoing commitment.

My gratitude extends to Thales for the security that its products offer our entire nation as we ensure that we can withstand warfare, should that be necessary. Looking back to the start of the Ukraine crisis, Thales was able to supply shoulder-held weapons that slowed down the advance of Russian armies across the whole front. That was Thales in Belfast—part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—doing its job for liberty, freedom and democracy.

A few months ago, I was pleased to learn that Thales had secured a £176 million MOD contract to produce lightweight missiles for the British Army. The order will equip the Army’s current and future short-range air defence capabilities, such as Stormer combat vehicles, and be fired by the Royal Navy’s Martlet maritime anti-surface missile systems, which are deployed from the Wildcat helicopters the hon. Member for North Durham referred to in his introduction. That is coming from us—Thales, in Belfast, in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The MOD said that these lightweight multi-role missiles, weighing only 13 kg each, provide a solution against threats such as drones, helicopters, aircraft, and small, fast maritime targets. They have been used in Ukraine to aid our allies in their ongoing struggle, and they have truly made a difference. It is right and proper that we ensure we have a decent stock and the facilities and capacity to quickly access more, should the need arise.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend refers to the stock that we require. Hopefully it never needs to be used, but we definitely require it. Does he agree that it would help if the Government were to outline in clear detail how quickly defence spending will get to 2.5%?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The Minister, who is assiduous in her work, will no doubt take note of that, or her officials will and will pass forward up-to-date information on where we are. I will comment on that later on, because it is really important that we look forward.

It is my hope—I know it is a shared hope in this room—that we can shortly find a way forward to peace for Israel, Ukraine and Africa—peace in so many theatres of war. Two weeks ago in the Baptist church I attend, the pastor said in his prayers that there are 47 wars in the world; that is how many there are. The ones that feature highly are Ukraine and Israel, of course, but across the world there are wars and rumours of wars. Those 47 wars give an indication of why peace is so important.

While we hope, aim and strive for peace, we must also be prepared for war. We must ensure that our armed forces are equipped and trained on land and sea and in the air, as well as in the new cyber-space, and missiles are part of that preparedness. The UK has to prepare for Russian aggression. It was in the paper this morning—the hon. Member for North Durham referred to this—that Russian drones were looking at the east of England, and I understand that the MOD was responding to them. I know that that is a hot story—if that is the way to put it—having been in the paper for the first time this morning, but maybe the Minister can give us some indication of how we are preparing ourselves for any such incursion by Russian forces, wherever it may be in the east of England—or indeed coming through the Republic of Ireland, into Northern Ireland and ultimately towards the rest of the United Kingdom. I would love there to be a special NATO relationship with the Republic of Ireland, but we must be aware that it is a back door to Britain, so we need to be prepared and ready. What is most important is that we are doing what we can.

I welcome the news that we are again to increase our GDP spend, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred to that. I know that the 2.5% is something we all want the Minister and the Government to achieve, and nobody differs in that view. What discussions have taken place with our fellow NATO countries and compatriots in battle about their preparedness to spend 2.5% for a similar reason?

I am conscious that within NATO we have our commitment to Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland, who are on the frontline with Russia. They have stood firm, but how can we ensure that their commitment is likewise at 2.5%? How can those that are not on the frontline, who may think they are safe because they are a way behind those countries, also commit to that 2.5%? That is something I would very much like to see. We have a change of Administration in the United States. President-elect Trump will take over on 21 January, I think, with President Biden still there until then. Have there been any discussions with the incoming President on the 2.5% commitment? If there have not been, could the Minister indicate when they might take place?

I conclude with this comment: I welcome the news that we are again to increase our GDP spend on military. This is right and proper. The production of high-level defence capacity by Thales and other UK providers must continue, to ensure that we can help our allies in need and that anyone who positions themselves as our enemy knows that our calmness and kindness are certainly not weakness. I am proud to be part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I am proud to be the hon. Member for Strangford and to ensure that we, collectively in this House, offer our support. I support the creation of these necessary arms, and I thank those who ensure that we have the capacity to continue having the world’s very best armed forces.

Blind and Partially Sighted People: Employment Support

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq; I always look forward to it. I commend the hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) for setting the scene so very well on a subject that is of great interest to all hon. Members present and to me personally. It is only fair to put on the record my thanks for her leadership of the APPG on eye health and visual impairment. In the time we have known each other, I have always supported her in these debates; she used to be on the Opposition side of the Chamber, but has now been elevated. We look forward to working strongly alongside her and others in the years ahead, if God spares us.

There are currently 57,500 people across Northern Ireland with sight loss, and the figure is expected to rise by over 25% by 2032. Today’s debate sets out the problem, but it also gives us an opportunity to think about what we can do to reduce that figure. Some 50% of sight loss is preventable, and it is that preventable 50% that I want to talk about.

The message must be clear that eye tests are as necessary as any other health check. I work very closely alongside the opticians in Newtownards in my constituency: they come to me regularly with their ideas, and I always convey those ideas to the Health Minister in Northern Ireland and to the Secretary of State or Minister at Westminster. I cannot remember the technical term for it, but the opticians in Newtownards have the most up-to-date machinery for checking people’s eyes—it is phenomenal.

My question to the Minister, if he does not mind my asking it at the very beginning, is what has been done to ensure more opticians’ tests, even for people who may think that they do not need one. I do not want to make them mandatory, because that would be wrong, but they should be made more accessible and available.

I will give two examples of the importance of opticians’ tests. A gentleman I know quite well once came to see me. I said that he did not look very well—he was very pale—and he said, “Jim, I have an absolutely splitting headache.” I said, “Have you been to the doctor?” He said, “I have, and the doctor gave me some headache tablets.” I said, “Where are you going now?” He said, “I’m going to the opticians.” I said, “You go to the optician and tell him about your headache.” The optician took that man’s details and sent him directly from Newtownards up to Ulster hospital in Dundonald. He had a tumour the size of an apple in his head. Immediate surgery saved that man’s life.

Another person I know quite well had been having headaches and blurred vision for some time. She would come to see me about benefits, and I would say, “Look, I think you should go and see your optician.” She did, and fortunately she had a tumour removed. It saved her sight and saved her life.

What more can we do? We—when I say “we”, I mean the Government—can prevent eye loss. If the Government can get people to make appointments early, I believe we can see great things happening for the 50% of sight loss that is preventable. Back in June, the Department of Health in Northern Ireland launched two new guides to support adults with sensory disabilities in Northern Ireland. As always, I will give some examples that I hope are helpful for the Minister to take on board.

The new resources, known as care pathways, map out the care and treatment that users can expect from professionals and support organisations to help them to manage their conditions. I welcome the excellent initiative to make a pathway to care and a future free from red tape and obstructions. My goodness! I know that there is red tape to get through—we understand that—but sometimes it becomes so burdensome that people just turn off.

The guides were released in tandem with the Royal National Institute of Blind People and other charitable groups. The support provided for blind and partially sighted people by those in the charitable sector is phenomenal. They should be thanked for stepping up and filling the breach, as they so often do.

I read recently on the RNIB’s website that it has a scheme called “SkillSET RNIB (2023)”, a Northern Ireland-based pre-employment initiative that offers opportunities for people who are seeking to gain employment for the first time or who are unable to continue in their current job because of sight loss. The hon. Member for Battersea has described the problems she experiences in coming to work and how technology lets her down; schemes such as these, in tandem with the Government Department back home and with the RNIB, can come up with ideas to address those issues directly and helpfully. They can enable people to find work and can encourage them in everyday life.

I am also aware that the Department for Work and Pensions has the Access to Work scheme, which is operated through the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland. Access to Work can contribute towards any supplementary employment costs that result from a disability. Sometimes we come and present cases, but there are things that Governments do, both back home at the Northern Ireland Assembly and here. I believe that the DWP’s Access to Work scheme is available for any paid job, part-time or full-time, permanent or temporary.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend talks about what needs to be done on pathways to work. Does he agree that potential employers need to understand two things? First, they could be in breach of the law if they engage in activities that prevent partially sighted or blind people from getting employment. Secondly, they could be overlooking better-qualified candidates for employment. Either way, they will lose unless they take account of this very worthwhile debate and of the need to ensure that they comply.

[Jim Shannon]

As always, my hon. Friend adds important evidence that takes the debate forward, and I thank him for it. Hopefully the Minister is listening as well.

Facial Recognition: Police Use

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate on live facial recognition technology, and I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for leading it.

I have to make a confession to the House: I am not technically minded. I can just about use my phone for text messages; I cannot do much else with it. When it comes to TikTok, Facebook, X and all those other things, I am not even sure what they all are. The fact is that my staff do all that, so anything that people see on there from me is because of them. I okay it, but they put it out.

But even if I am not technically minded, I understand the necessity to have technological advances in place and that they can also be used to benefit our police and criminal justice system. I am fully in support of advancements where there is necessity and reason for them, but the hon. Member for Brent East (Dawn Butler) was right to identify some problems with the system. So my contribution will be in favour of facial recognition technology, but also focused on the need to have a system that does not infringe on human rights.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that our concern for the wider population and individual safety has to be paramount? Allied with that are the necessary safeguards that have to be built in so that safety does not rule out and infringe on the personal liberties of people who have not done anything wrong and are unlikely to do so.

[Jim Shannon]

I agree with my hon. Friend and that point is the thrust of my contribution.

It was incredibly helpful to hear the comments of the right hon. Member for Maldon, and about how he was able to join police forces to see how live facial recognition works. I understand that was the 13th use of the technology by Essex police, with it having been deployed previously in Harlow, Southend and Clacton. Essentially, the equipment works by scanning the faces of all individuals seen by a camera and comparing them to a predetermined watchlist.

As my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) said, safety is paramount—that is the critical reason for using the technology. I speak on human rights issues all the time, as many present will know. I want to make sure that when we have technology in place, human rights are not abused or disenfranchised, and that people do not feel threatened. Innocent people should never feel threatened, of course, but there are those who have concerns. The technology has already proven itself and led to a number of arrests of people wanted for serious offences such as sexual abuse, domestic violence, aggravated burglary and shoplifting.

I will make a quick comment about the Police Service of Northern Ireland and what we are doing back home. A freedom of information request was submitted to the PSNI in late 2022, and it was concluded that live facial recognition is not currently used in Northern Ireland. I was aware of what the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Douglas McAllister) said when he intervened earlier, because Northen Ireland is in the same place on this. The FOI concluded that it is the intention of the PSNI to explore fully the potential of facial recognition technology, and that a working group was to be established in late 2022, in conjunction with PSNI stakeholders. The principle of why the technology is necessary is already in place, but we need to have the safeguards as well.

Last week I was in a Westminster Hall debate secured by the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on the importance of funding for local policing. There are clear examples across the United Kingdom that show that live facial recognition works and is extremely beneficial to the prevention of crime and for convictions. Perhaps, then, it is something that could be funded through the Barnett consequential. The Government will tell us that they have set funds aside, and we thank them for the extra money for Northern Ireland, but if it can help the police forces, that needs to be looked at.

Numerous concerns have been raised about the use of LFR by our police forces. Surveys have revealed that the British public are mainly concerned with policy infringements, surveillance, consent and the unethical use of facial recognition by the police. The hon. Member for Brent East said that clearly in her contribution, as have others. Police officers shared concerns that there could potentially be impacts on the legal and human rights of citizens.

I will always speak out on human rights abuses where they are highlighted and where infringements take place. It is good to see the Minister in her place; we all have an incredible respect for her and I look forward to her contribution. I seek to hear from her how human rights can be assured and carefully covered. The invasion of liberty and privacy are of major concern. If the technology is to be widely used across police forces, there must be assurances on public safety.

Concerns about false positives have been raised. I do not pretend to understand the technology, but others have explained that if it is turned down from 0.6 to 0.5, it offers a wider spectrum of people. That can cause such damage to people and their reputations, and reputation is everything for many people. Should this be trialled in the likes of Northern Ireland or Scotland, we must have assurances that the algorithms are correct and that they identify people correctly. I support the technology with that proviso.

Children’s Hospices: Funding

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 30th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) for setting the scene. It is nice see him in his place; he used to be in opposition, and now he is in government. He has been elevated, so well done.

I was saddened to hear about Zoe’s Place in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency having to become a stand-alone charity to encourage investment. There are many children who rely on these services, so it is never nice to hear the sort of news which he has presented today. Our hospices are pivotal within their local communities, so it is great to be here to discuss how to support them further.

It is also a pleasure to see the Minister and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson), and I look forward to their contributions. About a fortnight ago I attended a pop-up hospice charity shop here in Parliament. It was helpful to discuss the funding crisis facing our hospices with other Members and representatives. I also signed an open letter to the Minister of State for Care, and I look forward to hearing his responses in relation to these issues.

Over the years, I have supported the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice, which holds three or four charitable events in my constituency of Strangford every year. People are very generous and incredibly kind. The money that John and Anne Calvert help to raise through those charity events is something we all appreciate.

To give some background on the situation in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice is instrumental in providing endless amounts of support for people and is incredibly helpful. Horizon House in Newtownabbey is a seven-bed in-patient centre that aids the local community, including through sibling and bereavement support. It goes beyond what would normally be expected, providing community care alongside hospice at-home and palliative care for 350 babies across Northern Ireland, which is really important.

In February this year, the hospice had to reduce its bed capacity to six due to a reduction in Government funding, with the intention of running six beds from Monday to Friday, and three beds on Saturday and Sunday—a drastic change from the seven beds, seven nights model. Incredibly active fundraisers added a huge £14 million to the four hospice care facilities back home.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend is making a fundamental point about the community raising millions of pounds to support hospices, particularly palliative care, across society. Does he agree that that has to be seen, not as a replacement for Government funding, but an addition to it?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right. The £14 million raised in Northern Ireland for hospice care is extra money and—I say this very gently to the Minister and those in positions of power—that should not be taken by the Government as, “Well, we can take £14 million off what they’re doing in Northern Ireland because we’ve got £14 million from the volunteers.” That £14 million is vital to ensuring that the care goes forward.

With increasing reports of closures and decreases in some services, there is a clear need for the Department of Health, wholly supported by the Barnett consequentials, to find ways to financially aid our hospice services so that, years down the line, we do not see impending closures. The core priority, I believe, is to protect these vital services that provide so much to families across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Together for Short Lives revealed that the Northern Ireland’s Children’s Hospice has forecast a budget deficit of £1.46 million for 2023-24. That is due in part to a 6% cut in the hospice’s statutory income. Our hearts— and, most importantly, our thanks—are with the staff of hospice centres who work tirelessly to support those young children and families through that end of life palliative care.

I conclude with this, Mr Twigg—I am trying to keep to time—I strongly sympathise with the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby and his constituents on what they are going through. I have every hope that the Government can do something to support the devolved nations, and indeed NHS England, in the funding crisis. This is the responsibility of the Department of Health back home, but that must be fully supported by Westminster, right here.

Steel Industry

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Harris. It seems like only a few minutes ago that you were chairing the last debate yesterday in Westminster Hall, and here you are again. I commend you on your perseverance and obviously on the fact that you do not need any sleep at all to look fresh and well—well done.

First, I thank the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice) for leading today’s debate. As he always does, he set the scene in a very admirable way, underlining his concerns, which many of us in this Chamber share as well. There is no doubt that this is an incredibly important debate not just for myself but others, and we need to discuss these matters.

Looking at the steel industry in the UK over the years, it dates back as far as the 17th century when steel production was initially established. Steel was traditionally used for larger projects such as bridge building and weight-bearing items like rail tracks—the hon. Member referred to the trains and rails in India. In 2020, steel contributed some £2 billion to our economy and was responsible for 0.1% of the total UK economic output. Jumping forward to 2023, the latest reports show that UK steel production and demand plummeted to new historic lows of 5.6 million tonnes and 7.6 million tonnes respectively, which fall well below the levels seen at the peak of the pandemic in 2020. That is unfortunately quite discouraging.

I should have said at the start, and I apologise for not doing so, that it is nice to see the Minister in her place—I wish her well. She was telling me earlier in our conversation on the way to the hall that she has dual responsibilities. I very much look forward to her response to our inquiries. Everybody’s wish in this Chamber is to see the steel industry secured. It is also nice to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), in his place, and I look forward to his constructive contribution.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

In the positive tone my hon. Friend is adopting, and maybe in a light-hearted sense, would he agree that a man yesterday showed considerable backbone, of real steel: Michael O’Neill, the Northern Ireland manager, who picked a team of under-21s and thrashed Bulgaria 5-0? That is a real backbone of steel and we need to see some positive results like that from this debate.

[Jim Shannon]

I am sure the Minister has many football skills. Last night one of the players, the young fellow Price, scored a hat trick—yes, it was an admirable victory. If everybody showed that backbone and strength of character, certainly we would be in a better place. I thank my hon. Friend—I know that was moving away completely from the subject matter but he nonetheless reinforced the point to be made.

Northern Ireland plays an important role in the success of the UK steel industry, although back in 2022 that was under attack from the damages of the Northern Ireland protocol and the outbreak of war in Ukraine. It was said at the time that steel exports from Northern Ireland could face up to 25% tax and tariffs, but it is good to report today that that has since been addressed by the Windsor framework. That is one of the positives that came out of that process: I wish there were more.

What springs to mind is the 1,100 steel businesses across all parts of the United Kingdom and the 33,400 jobs that hinge on them—we cannot ignore those; they are so important. We have seen recently the threats to job security due to decisions to close production in certain steel plants. Only two weeks ago, Tata shut down its blast furnace 4, which was the final furnace operating at the UK’s biggest steelworks in Port Talbot. That resulted in 2,800 job losses across south Wales, not to mention that Port Talbot was pivotal to steel construction in Northern Ireland. That is why, in debates on steel, we do not necessarily have to have a manufacturing base in our constituency to see the benefits. The benefits for us in Northern Ireland were quite clear: the steel produced in Port Talbot came to Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness rightly raised concerns about the impact that our net zero advancements could have on the steel sector. It is crucial that we get this correct while ensuring a proper balance. Our defence industry relies heavily on domestic home-grown steel to build tanks and warships. That raises issues of us potentially relying too much on foreign imports, which the hon. Member referred. We should not ignore that, and our focus should be on providing incentives to the fantastic local companies we already have and putting them front and centre to the UK steel sector’s success. We must modernise to advance our steel industry and properly take care of it and get it right together.

We must also be able to source steel locally; doing so is of major importance for many industries across the United Kingdom, from aerospace and defence to boats and other transport. For us in Northern Ireland, the aerospace sector is very important.

I know the debate is not about this but I want to ask the Minister a question about Harland & Wolff that I had hoped to ask in Defence questions. Will the Minister give Northern Ireland Members some update on where we are with Harland & Wolff? During my discussion with the Minister about Defence questions on Monday, the Minister said, “Jim, ask this question and I’ll be happy to come back with an answer.” Harland & Wolff is really important, No.1, for the jobs it provides, but also for the connectivity that we have, with all parts of the United Kingdom coming together. Defence and aerospace are important for our manufacturing base in Northern Ireland, but also for the continuation of how we work better together.

I support our steel system. I want the best for it. We all want the best for it and I know that. I also hear and respect the concerns of other Members about its future. And there is no doubt at all that more needs to be done to preserve and protect it.

In conclusion, society will progress and changes will be made, but it is important that we remember the benefits that our steel sector brings to the United Kingdom economy. Moreover, there are the jobs that it provides for my constituents in Strangford and for people further afield—indeed, in all areas of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So, I sincerely look forward to hearing from the Minister and assessing what steps our Government will take to preserve our steel sector, and I have hope—much hope—that that action will allow for all of our nations to play their part together.

COP29: UK Priorities

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ealing Southall for introducing this debate. Last week, she talked about waste; this week she is talking about COP29, and it is pleasure to hear her speak on both those matters. I look forward to many more contributions from her in Westminster Hall.

The COP29 climate summit in Baku, Azerbaijan, will be the first “COP of peace”. We hope that will be the case and we will see how it goes, focusing on the prevention of future climate-fuelled conflicts and using international co-operation and green issues to help to heal existing tensions. In terms of our climate, and green success, there is still much to be done, so it is great to be here and talking about that subject.

Hon. Members who have made contributions have grasped that. I thought the balance that the hon. Member for Whitehaven and Workington (Josh MacAlister) aimed for in his contribution summed up where I am as well. I hope to develop the idea of balance in my thoughts.

One of the themes of COP29 is that of an inclusive process for inclusive action, which is one of those statements we need to think about for a wee minute to see what it actually means. It aims to encompass the host’s plans to engage with international stakeholders to ensure that everyone’s voice is heard.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

On international stakeholders, does my hon. Friend agree that in taking the balanced approach which he and others have recommended, we need to ensure that the major polluters—those who are polluting more than all the other undeveloped nations together, such as Russia, China and so on—are persuaded and pressurised to reduce their emissions, because if they do not, many of the actions that are being promoted among developed countries are going to be of little or no effect?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and his as always wise and salient words. The big countries in the world, such as China, Russia and others, have a disregard for fossil fuel pollution and seem to wish to pollute the rest of the world from their own countries. There is a real need for them to do something.

I am really pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero in her place. She sat on the Opposition side of the Chamber in many debates; she and I would have been alongside each other on many things, supporting the same objectives and the same targets. It is a real pleasure to see her today and I wish her well. It also nice to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), in his place.

I always bring the Northern Ireland perspective to debates, because it is important that we understand—perhaps appreciate is a better word—things that are happening in Northern Ireland and how they contribute to policy at Westminster. In Northern Ireland, as a smaller nation of the United Kingdom, we are not shy to the feeling of being left behind, so it is important that efforts are made to engage with international stakeholders, which my hon. Friend referred to.

I will give an example. Climate Northern Ireland brings together members from the key range of sectors to share best practice and enable positive action to address the impacts of climate change. It is funded by the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and aims to support the development and implementation of climate policy—it is really important, and core to the Department’s policy—by enabling the exchange of expertise and advice between Government Departments, public bodies and civil society. It brings them all together under one umbrella to pursue a policy that coincides and works alongside the one at Westminster.

I live in Greyabbey in Strangford and am a farmer there. I was saying to some people I met earlier this morning that I love to come here for the history, but I do not enjoy the concrete. I like to get back home to where the fields are green and where I can walk out and breathe the fresh country air, but that does not take away from where we are. Numerous neighbours of mine own farms themselves. It is really important that we have balance in this debate.

International Special Tribunal: Ukraine

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am a well-known advocate for Ukraine and have proudly worn a ribbon on my jacket for the last two years. I, and others, do not do that as a habit; it is a reminder for those across the world who think that things are getting better in Ukraine. The fact is that they are not.

I thank the hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth (Richard Foord) for bringing forward the debate. I was happy to be a co-signatory in his request to the Backbench Committee. It is also nice to see a lot of new faces here, as well as those of some returning Members. They all stand united to support Ukraine in the world in which we live.

Wearing the ribbon is a reminder that all is not well in the world. I have often referred to my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), who said, “I think the world’s gone mad.” All I will say is that I think it has. The Bible refers to

“wars and rumours of wars”.

I cannot remember there being as many wars in the world as there are at this moment in time.

When I am opening a charity shop in my local high street, for example, my wearing the ribbon emboldens Ukrainian refugees—we all have them in our constituencies —to come and say that they are really pleased to see us wearing one. It is a way of encouraging the Ukrainians living in my and, indeed, everyone’s constituencies to be aware that their Member of Parliament is doing his best for them.

I also wear the ribbon because I want to remind others that steps need to be taken not simply to help Ukraine but to remind the despots in this world that there is a core value that emboldens the allies and all of us in this room collectively, irrespective of our political aspirations, to stand together. That is the cause of freedom, liberty and democracy; the right to make our own decisions.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that in standing with Ukraine, as he quite rightly indicates, we should be pressing the Government to ensure the sanctions put in place are more rigidly enforced? The mistake that many in the west made did not just happen two years ago but, in fact, 10 years ago when Crimea was invaded. Unless Putin sees that the west is prepared to stand up to him, he will continue with his aggression, murder and butchery as before.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend always speaks words of wisdom, and those words are appropriate for where we are. I am not smarter than anybody else—I never profess to be—but many of us at that time thought we needed to stand up to what was happening in Crimea. We did not. I am not blaming anybody for that; it is just a fact of where we were. If we had done it then, the attacks in Donbas would not have happened with the same level of ferocity. We need to be clear on where we stand and what we are trying to do.

Like others, I have a thriving Ukrainian population in my constituency. The previous Government’s policy of letting in Ukrainians was very clear; I welcome what they did. I am pleased, by the way, to see the Minister in her place, and I look forward to her response. I do not mean to give her a big head, but she has shown a lot of confidence in the Chamber in the last few days and many of us have been impressed by how she has responded to questions. I am also pleased to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns), in her place. She and I have been friends ever since she has been here, and we look forward to her contribution.

I am happy to have helped many Ukrainians in my constituency of Strangford with visas for their time staying here, and with jobs and places in school. Ballynahinch high school in Strangford has greatly embraced Ukrainians; it has a class of specifically Ukrainian students coming from families who work in the businesses around Ballynahinch and further afield. It has teachers, classroom assistants and domestic staff from Ukraine. That is what they are doing in Ballynahinch.

I have probably talked to my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry about this, but our intention is to have an event in September, or certainly in October if we are spared. The principal of Ballynahinch high school, Paul Marks, wants to organise an event where the chefs will make the meals and the pupils will serve the tables, but the guests will be those of Ukrainian descent living in Northern Ireland. I think it is a great thing to do; I know others have done it across their constituencies. It is a way of encouraging those Ukrainians and showing that they are very much in our thoughts.

I welcome the debate. Again, I thank the hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth for bringing it to the Floor to highlight not simply the plight of the Ukrainian people, but the fact that there is an onus on us all to call this issue out for what it is and take the appropriate international steps. The UN General Assembly in 1974 agreed the definition of aggression in article 1—and my goodness, we watch it every day with Russia against Ukraine. It lists some of the acts that could amount to aggression, and we could say that every one of them has happened yesterday in Ukraine or the day before that, because they have. Those acts include invasion, occupation or annexation of another state’s territory, bombardment of another state’s territory, blockades of ports or coasts, and attacks by one armed force against another. Russia is guilty of all those.

It is important to say this sometimes when we are blaming Russia. There are many good people in Russia who do not subscribe to what has happened, but they are not often heard because of the oppression that happens there. Sometimes it is good to remind ourselves that not all Russians are bad.