House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 3rd March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Swire (Con)]

Hear, hear to that—I could not agree more with the Leader of the House. We should not be debating this at this time at all, and we are in risk of rendering ourselves irrelevant and foolish by debating these matters when things of far greater importance are going on. But I just say to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that he must accept that the composition of this House is very different from that of the time when he first introduced his Bill. Many of those who are now in this House would have supported it at that time. Surely it is only right that we have the ability to debate these matters, for the first time in many cases, now.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, made reference to me. I want to put it on the record, because he has said it before, that the amount of time that I spoke during the debates on his Bill in 2018—a Bill which had six hours of debate—was under twice as long as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has spoken today. In those six hours of debate, I spoke for 16 minutes; that was all. It was not a prevarication at all.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is right for me to intervene. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, who asked me for an apology, that I make no apology for carrying out the policy of my Government when I was a Government Minister. The policy of the Government was that we should not remove the 92 until a stage 2 reform came forward. Our Government, in coalition, in 2011-12, brought forward a Bill which would have led to the removal of hereditary Peers from your Lordships’ House. As was said earlier by others, that was frustrated by a group of Conservative Back-Benchers and the Labour Party in the other place. So, the Conservative Party did address that question, and I say to the noble Lord that I will never apologise for carrying out the policy of my Government.

So far as the noble Lord’s other remarks are concerned, there is a difference between this Bill and his Bill. We have another amendment on this later, so I do not want to protract this discussion now, but the difference was that his Bill allowed for the continuation of valued Members of this House—indeed, it was commended by a number of people who spoke on his Bill for that reason—while this Bill provides for the total expulsion of Peers who are here under the 1999 Act. There is a profound difference between those two Bills.

In the proposals I put forward to the Leader of the House—I am grateful to her for the manner in which she responded, and I hope we can return to that conduct of affairs—I said that part of the discussions we have will have to address what will be, in this moment when partisan zeal runs fairly high, a wound to the House—many people on the other side may accept what I say. If some of the very skilled, experienced and long-serving hereditary Peers whom we have among us are excluded, that will be a wound to the House, and it is right that the House should address that and consider it collectively. The noble Earl, Lord Devon, draws his own conclusion, but it certainly goes beyond horse-trading between parties as regards what the future of Members of this House should be. It is perfectly legitimate in Committee for us to consider the implications of legislation for the future of the House.

I was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said. I do not agree with the noble Lord that consensus is impossible—indeed, the coalition agreement demonstrates that that is not the case—but I am grateful for his agreement with me that it is important. I think the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth and others said that it would be helpful as we go forward if we could have some understanding about the timing and nature of the Government’s proposals beyond the Bill, because they are material to the future of the House.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

2: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“OverviewThis Act makes the House of Lords a second chamber whose membership is wholly nominated by the Prime Minister.”

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, we might think that we know what most of the consequences of this Bill will be for the British constitution, but they are far from clear to anyone who does not take a close interest in these matters, and they are not to be found in the Bill before us. This amendment aims to puts into the Bill what at least one consequence will be.

The membership of this second Chamber of Parliament is unique in the world in how it is constituted and for how long we serve. It is composed of a relatively small number of hereditary Peers, while the Lords spiritual are nominated and life Peers are appointed on the recommendation of the Prime Minister to the monarch. Except for the bishops, who must retire when aged 70, once one is a Member we have the right to a seat, place and voice here for our lifetimes.

The most similar appointment system is that of the Canadian Senate. Although there are no hereditary members there, all its members are appointed by their Prime Minister. There, the similarities end. There is a fixed size of 105 and a mandatory retirement age of 75. That means that a new senator can be appointed only when a vacancy arises. New appointments must also be made on a regional basis, with each province holding a fixed number of seats. We will come on to whether similar constraints should apply here; I make no further comment on that now.

As in Canada, there is considerable adverse comment in this country on how the appointment system works. However, this Bill is about to make the situation much worse. For the first time ever the Prime Minister, on his or her whim, will have an unprecedented power of control over all the appointments to the membership of this House. That is a very dangerous extension of prime ministerial power. It is such a fundamental change to our constitution that it needs careful consideration and justification. I firmly believe that it must be clearly spelled out in legislation.

Of course, our constitution can evolve to meet this new situation, but it has already been clearly demonstrated that Prime Ministers have a less rigorous appointment process than the House of Lords Appointments Commission, which Prime Ministers can and have overruled. A paper by the London School of Economics in November 2023 tells us:

“Party leaders sometimes appoint experts, but they regularly appoint loyalists”.


It goes on to say that

“about a quarter of appointees over the last decade”

to this House

“have been donors to political parties”.

I cannot but agree with the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, our Lord Speaker, when he said in an interview that this House is in danger of becoming “out of sync” with its balance of legislators. He went on to say that this House, too full of politicians and former political aides rather than people with outside experience, risked jeopardising the Chamber’s crucial role in taking a broader view on legislation and wider national policy. Those criticisms should be taken seriously. They were made before this Bill could take effect; it hands the Prime Minister untrammelled power to appoint whom he likes, when he likes. Everyone in the country should know about this. Once us hereditaries are forced out, there will be no screen for the life Peers to hide behind when the criticism comes thick and fast. A system so open to abuse cannot last long.

My amendment has three merits: it is concise, it does not affect the Bill’s wording or intention, and the principle has already been accepted by the Labour Party. On 23 March 2018, I moved a similar amendment to the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, which sought to abolish the hereditary Peer by-elections. The amendment was drafted to be inserted before Clause 1 and read:

“Overview


This Act amends section 2 of the House of Lords Act 1999 to end the process of by-elections for hereditary peers, thereby making the House of Lords a wholly appointed Second Chamber”.


The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, intervened early in the few words that I was going to say and told the House,

“I am happy to accept his amendment”.—[Official Report, 23/3/18; cols. 547-48.]

It was indeed accepted by the whole House, including the Labour Party’s Front Bench. I hope the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will now do the same. I beg to move.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I read this amendment with some surprise, because the noble Earl says that everybody is going to be nominated by the Prime Minister. I was not nominated by the Prime Minister and there remains, I think, 20% of this House who were not. As far as I know, this Government have no intention of getting rid of the way in which we are appointed. As I understand the noble Earl to have said, the wording of the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was different. Of course we are appointed, but the noble Earl has limited it to the Prime Minister. To that extent, I profoundly disagree and I hope noble Lords will at least support the Cross-Benchers.

I recognise the manifesto and that this Bill must go through. I regret that there are so many amendments to slow it down. There are a large number of issues that need to be dealt with. I am not at all sure that this is the best place for them to be discussed when there is really a single issue occupying the Committee.

I hope that the Government will look at those whom they are removing and compare them with the Members of this House—at least 200—who virtually never come. I can speak as someone who is not a hereditary Peer but has been here for quite a long time. I have observed the enormous work done by hereditary Peers, who have been of invaluable use to the legislation that has been passed. For us to lose them and keep those who do not come and do not work seems profoundly wrong.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Lord is resisting that temptation but I say to him, as I say to all noble Lords, that I have always been open to discussions. But I need assurances, so when we see degroupings, filibustering and threats on different things, that does not give the confidence that allows me to have those kinds of discussions. To have them, I need some confidence that the Opposition want to do this in a proper way.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for her reply. We have some useful additional information from her. However, I would take issue with her, just as she took issue with anybody who tried to misrepresent her in the debate. I did not in any way imply that the hereditaries were better than the life Peers or the life Peers better than the hereditaries. The purport of my amendment was solely that once you get rid of the hereditaries, there is increased power to the Prime Minister on appointments and nominations to this House, because the element of the hereditaries has gone.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I do not accept that at all. There is no change whatever in the powers of the Prime Minister at that point. I have explained the process. I think the noble Earl is saying that it is not everybody in the House. Currently 88 Members are here because of their ancestors being here, on the hereditary basis. The Prime Minister cannot appoint those now and there will not be those places in the future, but it does not increase his actual power at all.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

As a result of this Bill, there will be a greater percentage of the House appointed by the Prime Minister than now.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

Can I just finish? My point was that this could be abused. If I recall rightly the noble Baroness said, and I agree with her, that most Prime Ministers have behaved very responsibly, but on some occasions it has not been quite as we would have hoped. I am grateful for her support on that.

I am grateful for what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, did. As she will have noted, the amendment is carefully drafted to say nominations—nominated by the Prime Minister—rather than appointments. I focused on appointments rather than nominations, but I think I covered the point that she raised.

The memory of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, seems to have failed him a little, I fear. He said in response to my noble friend Lord Strathclyde that he had wanted to get on with his Bill and was in a hurry to proceed. That is slightly contradicted by the fact that a few minutes earlier he had taken the House to a Division and appointed Tellers for both the Contents and Not Contents, after the amendment had been withdrawn, and wasted a considerable amount of the House’s time. I think his memory is not quite as good as it used to be.

I am grateful to all those who took part in this debate and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I did not expect to be elected in 1999, but I was honoured and delighted to be so, as it allowed me to become the fifth Earl of Caithness elected to this House. It should not be overlooked, let alone forgotten, that there has been an elected element in this House not just for 25 years but for 271 out of the last 317 years. I agree that it has not been the widest franchise, but it is the only nod to democracy in this House. Sadly, this Government wish to dispense with democracy rather than extend it.

Given the promises of the then Labour Government, I believed that I would be told to go in 2002 or 2003. Later, I expected the call for eviction row soon after 2012, until Labour refused to agree a timetable Motion for a sensible reform Bill of the House and the then Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, retreated, humiliated, at the first whiff of battle. That was such a botched opportunity to reform this House. Soon after that, I had anticipated the call in about 2016 if Scotland had voted for independence.

The threat of being cleansed from here is nothing new, and I am not speaking today to try to keep my bottom on these red Benches. I am speaking because, in 1999, some of us hereditaries were retained for two purposes. The first was continuing to hold the increasingly powerful Executive to account. I believe that we still do that, and it must be an irritation to the Labour Party that, proportionately, we attend and vote more often than life Peers do. The second, as we have heard, was a guarantee that stage 2 would take place. That guarantee was binding in honour—some guarantee, some honour. I accept that no Parliament can bind its successors but, as behaviour never lies, Labour has demonstrated a very cavalier attitude to keeping its promises. Although disappointing, it is not surprising that, after having had 25 years to think about it, Labour have come back to the House without any new proposals.

Manifesto commitments will soon be forgotten. The consequences of the 1999 Act were a loss of about 100 hard-working Peers, an increase in our daily expenses as the incoming Labour life Peers would not accept the then level of allowances, and the dramatic increase in the percentage of ex-MPs here, from under 10% to over 20%. That will increase to 33% when the Bill is enacted. Ex-MPs are appointed for a variety of reasons, and I have nothing against some of them serving here. However, it would be sad if this House had the reputation of just being a retirement home for ex-MPs. I do not have the faith that some others have in a Prime Minister using his or her unfettered powers of patronage for the benefit of this House and the constitution. The Government should withdraw this spiteful little Bill and, at the very minimum, bring it back fulfilling all its manifesto commitments.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

3rd reading
Thursday 21st September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I will also speak to the other amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook. On Report, my noble friend Lord Trenchard tabled an amendment on chalk streams that highlighted their special status and the passion across the House for protecting these habitats further. Although we supported the intent of the amendment, we needed to fix some technical issues within the drafting. We committed to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading to provide clarity and reassurance on chalk streams in the context of environmental outcomes reports.

Therefore, Amendments 1 and 2 would include chalk streams in the definitions of “environmental protection” and “natural environment”. This means that, when setting the outcomes that will drive the new regime, the Government can ensure the protection of chalk streams, including from the effects of physical damage, abstraction and pollution. I thank my noble friend for working with us on this amendment to improve the health of England’s chalk streams.

Following the Government’s statement during the previous stage of the Bill, I am bringing forward Amendment 9, which relates to national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, collectively known as “protected landscapes”. This amendment addresses the issues raised on Report by my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge. It will enhance protected landscape management plans and bolster the contribution of partners to help deliver them, ensuring better outcomes for people and nature. As home to some of our most iconic and beautiful places, protected landscapes are crucial delivery partners that are at the heart of our work to unleash rural prosperity and create a network of beautiful and nature-rich spaces that can be enjoyed by all parts of society.

We have made technical drafting amendments to ensure that the amendment operates correctly in practice. This includes amending the individual Acts to strengthen the duty on relevant authorities to contribute to delivery of the purposes of protected landscapes and creating a power to make regulations. The Secretary of State now has the power to bring forward these regulations, and the Government are committed to doing so in a timely manner. I know this is an issue dear to many noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Randall, who has worked tirelessly on this matter. As such, I hope that noble Lords will lend support to this amendment.

I turn to Amendments 3, 4, 10, 11 and 16 to 54. As noble Lords will recall, this House was not content to accept government Amendments 247YY and 247YYA on Report, which related to nutrients. It is therefore necessary for the Government to reverse any amendments that were consequential on Amendments 247YY and 247YYA, and to fill legislative gaps that have arisen due to Amendments 247YY and 247YYA not being agreed to. This includes amendments which will provide a clear link between new Section 96G of the Water Industry Act, which enables water companies to take a catchment-permitting approach when upgrading waste- water treatment works, and new Regulations 85A, 85B and 110A in the habitats regulations, which direct local planning authorities to assume that the proposed upgrades are certain for the purpose of planning decisions.

The Government have also tabled minor and technical Amendments 10 and 11. Clause 256 of the Bill changes all references to “retained direct EU legislation” in this Bill to “assimilated direct legislation” in line with Section 5 of the retained EU law Act, as that Bill received Royal Assent during the passage of the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. One of these references was to the draft amendments concerning nutrient neutrality that were defeated by a vote in the House of Lords on 13 September. This amendment removes the reference.

Noble Lords will recall that we agreed amendments on Report in the name of my noble friend Lord Moylan, in relation to a road user charging scheme in London. The effect will be to enable London borough councils that are meeting their air quality standards and objectives under the Environment Act 1995, or have an approved plan to do so, to opt out of certain road user charging schemes proposed by Transport for London. This is a focused, sensible and proportionate rebalancing of mayoral powers with borough interests in the capital.

This group of government amendments is minor and technical in nature, but they are important none the less. The collective effect of Amendments 5, 7 and 8 is to clarify the eligibility of relevant London borough councils seeking to opt out of certain future road user charging schemes. They improve the drafting by ensuring that the provisions cover each case that could arise in relation to a London borough council. For example, where a council was eligible when it first gave notice but subsequently became ineligible on account of the introduction of an air quality management area, it will have the opportunity to submit an alternative plan during the opt-out period, thereby opening up the opportunity to become potentially eligible again. The collective effect of Amendments 13 and 14 is to correct the extent of Clause 253 so that it extends to England, Wales and Scotland, reflecting the extent of the Greater London Authority Act 1999, which it amends. The concept of application is distinct from that of extent—and these provisions will, of course, in practice apply only to London.

Lastly, Amendment 6 will ensure consistency in the language used and avoid any potential misunderstanding that opt-out notices can be given outside of the defined 10-week opt-out period. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, first, I ask my noble friend to send our best wishes to our noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook. Secondly, I thank him very much for honouring the commitment made by the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, with regard to Amendments 1 and 2 on chalk streams, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Trenchard, who apologises for not being here himself. We are particularly grateful that this has happened, and I am equally grateful that nutrient neutrality is as it was. On the one hand, the Government were going to protect chalk streams but, on the other hand, they were going to increase pollution. So, I think that chalk streams have a better chance now and I am grateful to my noble friend.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

The amendment to Clause 171 relates to amending Section 582 of the Housing Act 1985 to ensure its consistency with the new power under Clause 171 for confirmed compulsory purchase powers to be exercisable for a period longer than three years where the confirming authority considers it necessary. For the reasons I have outlined, I hope the Committee will support government Amendments 412A, 412B and 412C.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that very full reply from my noble friend, which I will want to read, but a number of points in it concern me. I hope that she will find time for a meeting between now and further stages, because there are some quite serious issues which are unclear.

My noble friend was absolutely right when she spoke about the need for the local authority to build relationships. All I can say to her is that these proposals are shattering relationships. A lot of work will have to be done to try to get them back.

Does a CPO override a conservation covenant? If my noble friend has a conservation covenant on her stud with her horses and the local authority wants to pinch a bit of land with state theft for some affordable houses, who is going to win? Perhaps she might have to write to me on that one. I have some more questions—

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I just want to make sure that the Committee knows I own no land and rent no land. Certainly, on a question such as that, I would rather give a written answer to my noble friend.

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend slightly confused me when she mentioned education, health and affordable housing and then in another sentence said that education, health and affordable housing were the sorts of development which opened the door to other developments coming in. We need to look at that. Can she tell me when we will get all these updates from the Government? Will they be discussed by Parliament? Are we allowed to amend the updates? If the Government come forward with ideas, surely Parliament ought to be able to discuss and amend them.

My noble friend went on to say that it could be more expensive for the local authority in paying hope value, but that does not mean that the scheme is uneconomic. Am I right in thinking that if a local authority thinks that it can get the land by compulsory purchase rather than by negotiation, and for slightly cheaper, it will go for compulsory purchase, rather than negotiation, as a regular way of getting land? These are important issues.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)]

Does the noble Earl wish to withdraw his amendment?

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

It is not my amendment; it belongs to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington.

[Lord Carrington (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her extremely comprehensive response to this debate. I suspect that, in an hour or two’s time, we will all be able to complete an examination on this extraordinarily complicated subject. It really is not easy for anybody. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his review from a professional point of view as to what the effects of these amendments might be, and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, for his extremely useful contribution. I also thank the officials whom we met some three or four weeks ago to discuss the amendments.

However, I want to make the point, which I did right at the beginning—I am sorry for making it again—that there was a consultation process. I am not talking about the Law Commission; I am talking about the consultation with the experts in this industry. The experts came from all sides, including local authorities, landowners and everybody in between. The consultation took place at the same time as the Bill started its progress through both Houses, and the Government’s response arrived last week. I cannot believe that much issue was taken by the Government on any of the points raised during that consultation process.

Our meeting with the officials was largely about that consultation process. We got the result last week. However, we have not really had any proper discussion on what was said in those comments. As I have said before, most of them were somewhat negative or very negative. I would welcome a meeting with the Minister and my colleagues to go through some of those responses in greater detail, because they bring up huge matters of principle in the property industry. In such an important industry, it is very important that there is confidence in how compulsory purchase and property ownership take place, and how we look at hope value, development value, et cetera. All that needs a little bit more work.

I still think that we are using the wrong instrument to crack this issue of hope value. It should be done through the taxation system, whether it is through the community infrastructure levy or Section 108, et cetera. All landowners need to be treated on an equal basis; we cannot have some people being taken out and hung out to dry. I would welcome that meeting. On the basis that we can have it, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Lords Chamber

Finally—there are a few more amendments but I do not want to take up any more time—I would like to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, on Amendment 272 that of course we all love hedgehogs. They have had an alarming decline, and if there is anything small that can be done to help, why do we not do it?

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I will take this opportunity to speak to my Amendments 270A and 270B, which are amendments to the amendment just spoken to by the noble Baroness. I added wildfires because it is an area of increasing concern to which the Government at the moment are not paying enough attention. They are not the only Government in the world who do not pay enough attention to it, but I think we have fallen into the habit of thinking that we are a wet country and have a lot of south-westerly winds and get deluges of rain—and we look at the flooding. However, the other side of that coin is the question of wildfires.

We are not the only country in this position. Portugal is a country that gets considerable downpours and the Atlantic winds but suffers the highest rate of wildfires in Europe. We are in a position where it could be our turn next. It is therefore very important that the Government get their act together now in anticipation of what is coming, because we have no comprehension of the size of the coming inferno.

Some in the House may ask why we are talking about wildfires, as they happen only on peatland up in Caithness or on the North York Moors or at Saddleworth. No, my Lords: last year on 19 July, the London Fire Brigade had its busiest day since World War II because of wildfires within London. It was the occupation of all those fire engines which must cause concern, because those fire engines were then not attending to other duties. There is a compounding effect from the damage that wildfires can do. I thought it appropriate to add this to the amendment because of its importance.

It is also worth bearing in mind that, just as with flooding, with wildfires you do not know the true cost for some weeks, months or years after the event, because it affects people in different ways. If one goes back to the Saddleworth Moor fire, 4.5 million people were affected by PM2.5 or less. That is a huge number, and it degrades the life of those people who have been affected. When you transfer that to the much more urban area of east London, again the situation is compounded.

I ask my noble friend what the Home Office is actually doing on this. It is the lead department under the Wildfire Framework for England, but the Home Office did not turn up to a workshop with the Climate Change Committee in January this year, when the other government departments did, as well as the Scots, the Welsh and COBRA. It was hugely important that the lead government department was at that workshop, but it was not there. Is the Home Office fit to continue its role as lead in this area? Why did the Home Office not attend that workshop? Why has it not updated the Wildfire Framework for England, which was due to be updated last year—and we are now in April? This is not a sign of a Government who are concerned about this problem and showing a lead. I hope my noble friend will be able to give me some answers.

The year 2022 was a wake-up call for us all in the number of wildfires as a result of manmade climate change. That needs to be addressed, and I hope that my noble friend can help us with some answers on that.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Bennett, and in mine. It is such a pleasure to hear the words “manmade climate change” coming from the government Benches. It is a real pleasure, because when I first came here in 2013, I was the only person talking about it, so thank you everybody who has mentioned it today.

I support quite a lot of the amendments in this group, but I am slightly concerned about the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and perhaps he would like to clarify. It looks as if his amendments would prevent a spatial plan or a local plan from targeting net-zero carbon emissions earlier than 2050. It is not enough to achieve it by 2050; we must make sure that it is done incrementally, not all at the last moment. That would create problems for, for example, the Green-led Stroud District Council, which is targeting achieving net zero by 2030. It would be madness to try to delay anything like that. I am not sure if that is the intention, but I would like to know. Sorry, does the noble Lord want to answer me now, before I have finished?

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[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

Of course the Government are doing that, but we have to consider everything in the round, and we are doing a huge amount through the Environment Act and other legislation in order to allay some of the concerns that have been voiced today in the Committee.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, before I come back to my Amendments 270A and 270B, and Amendment 270 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, I need to correct one small thing that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, said. The noble Baroness said that she was the only person talking about manmade climate change and that made me giggle—I was talking in this House about manmade climate change before she even joined the Green Party, when I was a Minister for the Countryside.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I dispute that, but I do admit that I overstated the case. It was a struggle, and it still is a struggle, but I would like to know which date the noble Earl is using for that.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

I knew that would get a rise out of the noble Baroness.

Coming back to my amendments, I think my noble friend said that there was legislation already on the statute book to cope with the situation. Why is that legislation not being utilised and implemented? One of the key factors with wildfire is fuel load, and we are now learning more about fuel load and wildfires that we did not know before in the legislation that she made reference to. We know that at the moment we have got fires occurring in this country that the fire and rescue services cannot cope with because of the fuel load within the fire itself. What are the local authorities doing about that? If they have got the powers, why are they not using them? Why has the Climate Change Committee, in its latest report to Parliament, stressed the need for, and asked the Home Office to create and implement, a strategy to identify and mitigate the risks of wildfire? My noble friend did not answer the question I asked her about the Home Office earlier. Can she now answer these questions?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I do not underestimate the serious concerns that wildfires increasingly present to local authorities and, indeed, to us all. These are matters that are spread across a number of different departments, I can say that the NPPF does apply its climate risk to all adaptation matters, including wildfires as I have said. There are issues that cross over between the Home Office and indeed Defra, and I shall do some further exploration between those departments and come back to my noble friend and the Members of the Committee in writing.

House of Lords: Remote Participation and Hybrid Sittings

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is good to see the House fuller than it has been for some months; that is a substantial improvement. I too thank the staff and everybody who has made the last 15 months possible. It has been an incredible achievement and, as has been said, something many of us would have predicted could not possibly have happened. There are a lot of lessons to be learned.

Like my noble friend Lord Bourne, I am going to follow the lead set by my noble friend Lord Howe and divide my speech into three parts. There is the remote participation. I have found it harder participating remotely than 15 months ago, when one was in the House and able to access papers quickly and easily, with the Printed Paper Office open and the Library working full-time. It has required a great deal more work at the weekends and during the week.

One advantage of remote working has been that the acoustics are better than in the committee rooms. For those of us who sometimes find it difficult to hear, it has been a joy to hear every word, rather than one in four. But there are downsides. One is the lack of spontaneity, as has been mentioned, and I believe that we have not held the Government to account in the way that we should have done and used to be able to do. I note that it was highly frustrating when the Agriculture Bill was going through that one was not able to intervene and hold the Minister to account. I am deeply concerned that, with the Environment Bill ahead of us, we are going to have Committee stage under these strict rules. That is a Bill we need to get right, and we are not going to be able to properly do the job that we should do.

One other thing on remote participation is that I smiled ruefully when the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said he wanted an opening time of 2.30 pm on Monday for those who lived far away. When I lived in Caithness, I had to leave on Sunday to get to the House at 2.30 pm on a Monday.

Some Peers have said remote voting has been abused. I think that is down to the expenses system. Whatever expenses system you have, it will be abused. I throw in the idea that, if we are going to continue with remote voting, those who vote remotely should not be paid. I also think that physical voting has an advantage, in that it gives one the chance to collar a Minister. Ministers can be highly elusive; they like sticking to their departments and their civil servants keep them there. But if they have to vote physically, there is at least an opportunity to collar him or her for an urgent word at that time.

Moving on to procedural changes, I agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said about Oral Questions, and that was picked up by my noble friends Lord Balfe and Lord Bourne. I thoroughly approve of 10 minutes for Oral Questions, and I approve of the list system. I did not like Oral Questions before the pandemic hit us: the House was thoroughly overcrowded and it was impossible to get up to ask a question. I shunned Question Time completely; I read it in Hansard, but it was easier and nicer to come into the Chamber when Question Time was over.

I talked about holding the Government to account. One of the things we have learned in the last 15 months is how important it is to hold the Lord Speaker, the Commission, the Senior Deputy Speaker and the Conduct Committee to account. They have got away with an awful lot of things, such as debates being scheduled at very short notice, and noble Lords having to be physically in the Chamber to comment on those issues. We ought to have a debate, and I hope my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal will give us time for one, on what we think the role of the Lord Speaker should be. The last Lord Speaker, my noble friend Lord Fowler, seemed to attract additional work with Velcro hands. That has left us with a difficulty. My noble friend the Lord Privy Seal is the Leader of the House, but in fact she does not have control over the House; the control is by the Commission, which has got things through that we have not been able to investigate. So at the moment, our Leader is rather like an empress with very few clothes, having to account for a House over which she has no control. I hope that there will be time to discuss many of the procedural issues that have been thrown up as a result of this pandemic.

His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Monday 12th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my father was privileged to be the factor at Balmoral from 1955 to 1965, and that was where I spent my happy childhood. My memories of His Royal Highness are therefore those of a boy aged between 10 and 17. I particularly remember the kindness with which His Royal Highness and Her Majesty treated our family, in particular my father after he lost a leg in 1960 due to a thrombosis. He was kept on in employment for another five years. That is quite normal now, but in the 1960s it was most unusual. It was a gesture way ahead of its time and very much appreciated by all of us.

I also remember His Royal Highness as a young parent—my father was 15 years older than him. When Prince Philip appeared, active and energetic as always, there was a noticeable contrast, and that rather struck me when I was a boy. The thought that one might meet him was always daunting, but when I actually did, it was a totally different feeling: he had the unique ability that some people have to make one feel totally at ease. Even as a difficult child between the ages of 10 and 17, you felt that you were the most important person in the world and that he wanted to talk to you rather than somebody much more important. It was an amazing ability that he had, and if some of us could pass that on in how we treat our grandchildren, the world might become a happier place.

I also remember going to a barbecue and being slightly amazed that the person doing the cooking was Prince Philip—that too was unusual in the early 1960s. Not only that but Her Majesty was doing the washing up as some of the dirty pans were passed her way. It is a wonderful memory to have. On another occasion, we were on the hill and I happened to be sitting next to Prince Philip—I remember him sitting there with his binoculars fixed to his eyes—and he pointed out some rare bird. It did not mean very much to me at the time, but what sunk in was that what he was doing was important. Along with my father, he certainly helped generate in me the interest that I have in conservation and the environment.

Another memory is dancing. His Royal Highness was an extremely good dancer. I remember our various little dancing lessons to teach Prince Charles and Princess Anne how to do Scottish reels and Scottish country dancing, which he knew very well. He was always there to encourage and cajole, and to bring the best out of the young and get them to do it in the way that they should.

Returning to conservation, it was that for which I will remember His Royal Highness the most—the days with Sir Peter Scott and my late friend Lord Buxton of Alsa. It was Prince Philip who narrated “The Enchanted Isles”, about the Galapagos Islands, in 1967, breaking new ground by presenting on television a hugely important documentary about the islands. I think that it is due largely to Prince Philip that the Galapagos Islands and the rare species there have survived and thrived in the way they have. Thank you, sir, for that.

In this country, it was in the World Wide Fund for Nature and the Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust, among others, that he took a huge interest. He demonstrated that himself. At Sandringham, he increased the wild partridge population, but, more than that, he knew that if he increased the number of partridges, he would increase the survival chances of lots of other species that were equally threatened. It was not until I became a chartered surveyor that I realised that in what he was doing at Balmoral in the 1960s, with the preservation of the Caledonian Forest and the regeneration of some of the heather moorland that had gone backwards, how advanced and forward thinking he was on those fronts.

I was immensely privileged to have that childhood and am extraordinarily grateful to His Royal Highness and Her Majesty for their kindness to our family and for what he taught me. If I can pass on just a fraction of that, I will be a happy man.

Business of the House

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, just said about my noble friend the Chief Whip and others in the usual channels and elsewhere who have enabled us to function through some extraordinarily difficult times.

However, having said that, I believe that we have to move on. We have to try to get back to as near to normality as possible, as soon as possible. That means encouraging noble Lords in all parts of the House to regard it as the normal thing to be here and the exceptional thing to participate virtually. I must confess that I had never used a computer before. I was determined that I was not going to be excluded from your Lordships’ House, so I made what my noble friend the Chief Whip would probably say were far too many interventions via virtual participation. But I hate it. It is a horrible thing talking into a screen, not being able to see your colleagues and not being able to sense the reaction of the House. We must get back to that and to a self-regulating House as soon as possible.

With these lists, all spontaneity has gone. The Government cannot be held adequately to account because the Minister, whoever he or she may be, can get away with whatever he or she wants. There is not the opportunity to question them save in the very artificial form to which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, referred in respect of Committee, when you have to send an email and get another email back and then you can ask a question. Some noble Lords, particularly those participating virtually, have abused that system by making a speech that they should have made on the amendment concerned or even at Second Reading. I am glad to see noble Lords on the other side of the House assenting to some of these points, because they are important.

I know that there is a fundamental problem about numbers, which will perhaps remain for a very long time. I therefore put to the House what I have put privately to the Clerk of Parliaments and others: we should give serious consideration to moving the Chamber to the Royal Gallery. In 1983, that happened. The late Manny Shinwell, who had just celebrated his 100th birthday, was nearly killed by a bit of timber falling from the ceiling. Thank God it was not the end of an illustrious career, but, because of that, this Chamber had to be vacated for restoration and, for a time, noble Lords met in the Royal Gallery. As a Member of the other place for nearly 20 years by then, I found this very interesting and in sharp contrast to the war years, when of course—I remembered it because my noble friend Lord Trefgarne was here in 1947 for the first time —the Lords met in the Robing Room. That would be completely impossible, but it would be possible to have more people, physically distanced, in the Royal Gallery. I know that there are problems, but they have been overcome in the past and they should be overcome now. We could have noble Lords sitting on individual seats, or the Benches could be put in and augmented. It could be tiered, as it is for the State Opening of Parliament every year. It is a serious suggestion that I commend to your Lordships for serious consideration.

One or two other things would help edge us back towards normality. We are brilliantly served by our staff in this House, but I find it very sad to go into the Library and find not a single clerk on duty. Surely there could be a rota system—again, I am glad to see noble Lords assenting—because that Library is of fundamental importance to every Member of your Lordships’ House, and there should be clerks on duty so that Members can consult them. I hope that that can be the case, whether we are serving in Grand Committee or on the Floor of the House, when we come back in September.

I have another suggestion which may not command such universal assent. We are brilliantly served by the Clerk of the Parliaments and all the clerks, but, in edging towards normality, although none of them could ever be accused of being anything other than impeccably dressed, it would be nice to see them properly dressed when we come back in September. Again, it would make the place a little more normal and a little more like the House of Lords that we know and most of us love.

I am grateful to my noble friend for introducing this Motion. I wish him success. I wish him a restful and happy summer—no one deserves it more—but when we come back, let there be more of us and let us be functioning in a more normal way.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I want to ask my noble friend on the Front Bench to pay particular note to what the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, said about travel. He lives in the tropics compared to where some people in Scotland live. I remember that when I was appointed to a committee that sat on a Monday afternoon, I had to give up serving on it because I could not get down from Caithness in time. Indeed, I sat on a Back-Bench committee with the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, which looked at the whole problem of better servicing people who live far away from the Chamber and giving them a fairer opportunity to speak and participate in this House.

I thoroughly agree with what my noble friend Lord Cormack said about the Library. One cannot even use a computer in the Library at the moment; this morning, I came in to do some work and found that I was totally unable to do so.

On voting, I agree with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne. I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will give consideration to the idea that, in future, the only people who can vote will be those who are physically here in the Chamber.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, my first point is this: I wish we could make a clearer rule as to what the arrangements are here. I have got in thanks to the kindness of the Deputy Speaker, but I was told that we had to put our names down to ask questions. I was not clear about it; if that is the system, I think we need a note of guidance.

I agree totally with what was said by my good and noble friend Lord Cormack and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. I agree with a lot of what other people said, but in particular with those two noble Lords.

I have two questions. First, the order will have effect from 2 September until a further order is made. Can the Chief Whip give us some indication as to when this procedure will be reviewed—in other words, when a further order might come up? Secondly, I want to put on record that one of the great difficulties I find when dealing with SIs, and with amendments to Bills, is the inability to get up when the Minister is answering and say, “I’m terribly sorry, but I don’t think you’ve understood my point”, or to intervene at the point where it is absolutely relevant. You cannot then send an email to the clerk to ask to get up afterwards. I therefore ask that this be looked at.

I will not speak again, but on the next Motion the Chief Whip is going to tell us why Topical Questions are no longer to be tabled, and I can well understand why that is. However, I ask that attention be given to the quality of Answers and to the length of time that we are kept waiting, not only for Answers to Written Questions but for answers to letters. Perhaps I can remind Ministers that a letter from a Member of this House to a Minister should not normally, as has happened to me, be replied to by a civil servant who tells me that the Minister is busy. It does not take very long to scribble a signature, and one of the few advantages we have in this House is to be able to call Ministers to account. I was even more annoyed that the answer was totally irrelevant to the letter that I had written in the first place. That did not help; had it been a relevant letter, I might have excused it, but it almost totally missed the point of the questions I had asked. I thank the House for indulging me.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 13th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, that would depend on whether they were going to put their names forward to stand. I do not have a clue what my successor will do, so I do not declare an interest. I would be dead and well out of it, thank goodness.

My first happy duty is to wish a happy birthday to the noble Lord, Lord Burns; I regret that he has to spend his birthday debating this Bill yet again. This is not the same Bill that we discussed on Report the last time it was before us. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott—inadvertently, I am sure—has not included the amendment of mine that he accepted. I am sure he will wish to do that at a later stage and we will get back to the Bill that we were properly discussing.

This is a constitutionally important Bill because it fundamentally changes the nature of our constitution. It makes this House a totally appointed Chamber—appointed at the whim of the Prime Minister. The House of Commons has never voted for that—quite the reverse. It has voted for an elected Chamber. It is only this House that has voted to remain a totally appointed Chamber.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, in his typically funny, witty and amusing speech, was of course his usual inaccurate and incomplete self.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[The Earl of Caithness]

He said that I was irreconcilably opposed to the Bill. I am not at all. He mentioned the Burns report. I have stated on the Floor during our debates that, once the Burns report is implemented, I will fully support the Bill. I added that I agree that the number of hereditary Peers should reduce, to reflect where we are now rather than go back to the number in 1999 before the life Peers were appointed—when, of course, it was a higher proportion. So, to say that I am irreconcilably opposed is quite wrong. In fact, he and I agree on the principle of the Bill. I do not want to see hereditary Peers in this Chamber. That is where the noble Lord and I diverge. He does not want to see hereditary Peers in the Chamber because he wants a totally appointed Chamber—a nice cabal, a resting home for former MPs, which 30% of this House are. He wants a nice, cosy place. I want an elected second Chamber, and surely that is what we should have.

I supported the Liberals’ Bill, brought forward by the Government they joined from 2010 to 2015. Sadly, there are three great legacies of the Liberals’ involvement in government: one is their U-turn on student loans; the second is that too many Liberal life Peers were appointed; and the third is that they ducked out of changing the constitution when they had the perfect chance to do so and would have got a lot of support for it. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was perfectly right to say that Labour played a part in that, and due credit must be given to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for his role in influencing Labour in that. It is clear that the noble Lord does not want transparency: he wants this House to carry on in its old muddled, unelected way.

There are so many more important issues, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde mentioned, that the press has picked up on. Of course the press reports were inaccurate—they were bound to be; they normally are with regard to this House—but there was a fundamental element of truth in them that should be picked up on. This House needs to address far more than the question before us again.

House of Lords: Size

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, notwithstanding the Elton and Grocott Bills that are before us, we have our annual debate on the size of the House. The previous one was in September last year. It seems to be our annual navel-gazing. I was deeply saddened by the way in which my noble friend Lord Cormack introduced the debate because he said that he was speaking on behalf of his campaign group. I hope that none of us here speaks on behalf of a group. We speak for ourselves. The group might agree with us but if we start speaking on behalf of groups we will fundamentally change the reason for us being here.

We are talking again about the size of the House. In overall numbers, which is one way of measuring it, we are down to 64% of the size the House was at its height, some 19 years ago. In actual attendance numbers, we are up about 10% since 1999 but that still makes us about 20% smaller than the House of Commons. Limiting the size of the House will have a detrimental effect on the number of Peers who can come here on a part-time basis. In saying that, I look at history. Your Lordships have only to study what happened to the Scottish Peers after the Acts of Union 1707, when the number of Scottish Peers was reduced to 16. The influence that the Whips and the Governments had immediately after that on the selection process is a lesson that we should take note of. It will be equally relevant to this House. Indeed, the elections in 1999 following the dismissal of most of the hereditary Peers showed that those who were elected were not the part-time ones but the ones who attended on a regular basis. If we believe that working part time is a function of this House, limiting the size is not the way to do it.

If we are going to limit size, we must also limit the power of patronage of the Prime Minister, as the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and my noble friend Lord Tebbit said. That cannot be allowed to continue unabated. But size is just one of the problems of this House and if we focus on size alone, we will be doing ourselves a disservice. We need to look at the function of the House. We have been told that we need to have a bicameral system in the United Kingdom. That is only partly true. We do not have a bicameral system in the whole United Kingdom. Look at Scotland and Wales: a lot of their legislation is not considered by a bicameral parliament and we do not have a say in it here. The British constitution has adopted a bicameral system but we need to look also at how we function and, indeed, how the House of Commons functions.

We ought to remain a revising Chamber. If we look at what has happened with the Policing and Crime Bill, in the House of Commons there were 112 clauses and 12 schedules; there were amendments to only 25 clauses and five schedules—a quarter of the clauses and fewer than half the schedules. We have important work to do and in order to do that work we need the right composition. My noble friend Lord Elton said how important it was that the reputation of the House was upheld. I believe that a key part of our reputation is our composition.

Is our age structure right? Is it right that the average age in the House is 69, in an unelected Chamber, or that only 26% of the House are women? These are areas of criticism. Is it right that a quarter of those Peers appointed to Parliament since 1999 have been former politicians and that a further 7% have been linked to a party either in senior positions or as working for it? When Members of Parliament are held in such low esteem, perhaps we ought to look at that as well.

On a regional basis, the present House is tilted entirely towards the south-east—here I know that I will get support from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. It is extremely difficult to operate effectively in this House if you live in a remote area of the country. The business of the House and the decisions of the party Whips make it virtually impossible. I repeat that when I lived in the north of Scotland, in order to guarantee being here for a Monday afternoon I had to leave on Sunday evening. That is not an effective system; it is open to abuse and criticism. Let us not believe that solving the size problem is going to solve our reputation. It is not.