Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part one
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness and see her so loyally supporting my Government—and in the Lobbies as well, no doubt.

I shall add a point to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and, in reference to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, emphasise the question of the terms of reference and what they do to complicate the work of the committee. By the way, the chairman of this committee is supposed to spend 20 days a year on this, yet he has to look at all past policies, all future policies and all present policies in all aspects of government. That will be quite hard work for him.

The terms of reference note that the committee may seek outside input, including from “stakeholders amongst others”. If the committee is looking at process—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, made—rather than policy, why consult stakeholders? Similarly, the terms of reference suggest that the committee

“may wish to prioritise policies … which are more significant in terms of Parliamentary, Departmental, Stakeholder or public interest”.

Is this about ensuring that all due regard is had to animal welfare in the process of reaching policy decisions or about the issues and decisions themselves? Will the committee focus on animal welfare issues that are of high profile as a result of campaigning by interest groups, which does not seem to have been the original intention?

The terms of reference refer to it being

“beneficial for UK Government Departments to seek advice from the Committee to assist them in understanding the effects of particular policies on the welfare of animals”.

It seems from wording like this that the committee will look not simply at process but at the policy itself that is under consideration. I hope that my noble friend will address this point, as it seems to be an issue of mission creep that we need to understand.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group but, before I turn to them, I congratulate my noble friend on his announcement last week with regard to soil. It was a significant step forward by Her Majesty’s Government, and one that is wholly welcomed by those concerned about our farming in this country and our ability to grow crops. I thank my noble friend very much for what he did last week and for his letter on it.

I turn to the Bill in front of us, to which I have tabled two amendments. Amendment 15 basically copies that of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, who has just spoken, but it also has a second part to it, which is trying to be helpful to my noble friend to get him out of this particular problem. The problem is the retrospective nature of the legislation. In the terms of reference and accompanying letter, we are told that Defra expects the committee to produce between six and eight reports a year. I asked what the likely policy issues of Defra were that the committee would look at—to which the answer inevitably came back that it was up to the committee and not to Defra. However, I cannot believe that the committee will be kept busy looking at future policy of Defra; it is supposed to look across government, but the rest of the departments have to take absolutely no notice of the committee, because the Government merely “hope” that the rest of departments will pay attention to the committee. That is a positive step.

My Amendment 18 would allow the Bill to go through as it is worded but with the condition that, if there is going to be a retrospective report on policy that has already been implemented, the committee merely needs the written consent of the Secretary of State. That, surely, is a sensible way forward. It encourages the committee to look forward and not back and stops it from going on wild fishing trips into past, established policy to try to meet its target of six to eight reports a year. So the amendment is formulated in the hope that it will allow my noble friend to make a tweak to the Bill that will achieve the same result but with a little bit more sense to it.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, before speaking to my amendments, I should just say that there is a certain underwater quality to the sound, and it has been quite difficult to follow the previous group. I think that is because somebody called John Turner has not muted. There are quite a lot of people who have not muted on the call, and I think that is giving some feedback—oh, he has now. Thank you. Let us see if that improves things.

It is my pleasure to open this debate on this group of amendments—or at least those amendments that seek to improve the committee and strengthen its functions, such as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. I remind all noble Lords that this was a government promise. Something has to come out of this that is positive and that the general public, who asked for this, understand as being a reasonable policy. The Minister said that expert scrutiny is needed and that policy is not static. Can we not live 100 or 500 years in the past? Can we understand that things have to move on? As he also said, animal sentience is a fast-evolving field, and we need to make sure that we are up there, aware and legislating in the right way.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who signed my Amendments 27 and 41, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. She is unable to be here for this group but she will be here later.

My Amendment 20 is the crucial one because it would toughen up the committee. I am not very welcoming of Amendments 21 and 22, which seem designed to weaken the committee into total obscurity. Why any scrutiny body would be reduced to the position of seeking permission from those it is scrutinising to actually do the scrutinising is beyond me, but then there are those who believe in the divine right of kings and see scrutiny of the Government as a bad thing.

I am very pleased that my Amendment 20 would have the opposite effect. I would like to see a strong, broad-based animal sentience committee that conducts deep analysis of all government policy to ensure that its impact on animals has been properly considered. I would much rather that the committee looked at everything in the round than sporadically look at piecemeal bits of policy. The former seems the right way to go, especially when the Bill is premised on the fact that these animals are sentient beings with the capacity to feel, perceive and experience. I have confidence that your Lordships can improve the Bill and give short shrift to the wrecking amendments that would reduce the sentience of the committee to a lump of stone. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to these amendments because I have an amendment in my name, which I will come to in a minute. First, I agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, when she said that she hoped the committee would look at policy in the round. That is what we all hope. However, we all fear that it will not. We need reassurance from my noble friend the Minister to convince us. We are not conspiracy theorists; we are practitioners who wish to see this operating sensibly in the United Kingdom.

The reason for my Amendment 38 is perhaps best illustrated when we look at Amendment 46, which is also in this group and is in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Hayman of Ullock. I look forward to hearing what they have to say on their amendment. I cannot detract from subsection (1) of their proposed new clause. It is quite right that, if a piece of legislation sets up a committee, that committee ought to report to Parliament to be properly scrutinised. But then we come to subsection (2), which is where I get a little concerned. First, in subsection (2)(b), the noble Baronesses propose

“an overview of the implementation of animal sentience requirements across government”.

As I read and understand this, if my noble friend the Minister is right that the animal sentience committee is all about—and I quote his words—“informing policy”, it should not be looking at the implementation of policy. That is for the Government and Ministers, having looked at whatever report comes out of the committee.

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[Lord Robathan (Con)]

Perhaps my noble friend might list the constituents who wrote to him.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his very full reply. He did comment on my amendment; I will have to read what he said in the Official Report, but towards the end, he said quite rightly that the remit of the animal sentience committee was across Whitehall. That includes the devolved Administrations. The Scottish Animal Welfare Commission was set up specifically to look at how the welfare needs of sentient animals are being met by devolved policy. I am now unclear—perhaps my noble friend could help me—about how much of sentience is devolved and what exactly the committee will be able to do in the devolved countries. Will it be able to go to the Scotland Office and thus up to Holyrood, look at its policy and tell Scotland that it has to change its ways? I am not quite certain how this will work in practice. As this is Committee, it is an ideal time for my noble friend to explain the Bill a bit more to us.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, and I hope to be able to reassure him. The job of the animal sentience committee will not be to walk into Holyrood and instruct our friends in Scotland how they should deal with animal sentience. It is a committee based around the UK Government that, as he rightly says, covers Scotland, but these matters are devolved issues—animal welfare is a devolved issue. But, on these small islands, it would be absurd if we were not working closely across borders with the devolved Administrations to make sure that our animal welfare laws broadly align. We have livestock bred in one country and slaughtered in another, or bred in one country and fattened in another. We have other activities, such as fishing and all forms of animal welfare, which require a cross-border understanding.

The Animal Welfare Committee’s remit is right across the country. The animal sentience committee will be restricted to the UK Government and will work with the devolved Administrations to make sure that the policies it is commenting on are properly managed in respect of the department to which it is making its report.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

35A: Clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—
“(4A) Recommendations under subsection (3) must not be detrimental to—(a) conservation,(b) biodiversity,(c) crop protection, or(d) human health.”

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment came to me when we were discussing the Environment Bill last week. I know that it is not drafted as well as it should be; I apologise to the Committee for that. I say to my noble friend the Minister, “Forget about the drafting. It is the principle of what I am trying to get at that is important here”.

Most of our conservation work to improve our biodiversity and wealth of species has been habitat-based. It has not been very successful because when we were in the European Union, and since our exit, the Government have not focused on the critical issue of management. Management requires human decision. There are some fairly easy examples to make about species and how people will react to them, but when you look at pests, people’s opinions start to vary and that perception could be translated into legislation. That is my concern here. Take deer, for instance. You can have lots of photographs and everybody will look at Bambi and ooh and ah, but deer are a pest that need to be controlled. We discussed this in the Environment Bill and there seemed to be unanimity there. It would be an easy species for a committee to make an emotional, rather than scientific, decision on.

One can get into more questionable species. What about rats and wasps? If you analyse what people think about them, they have less feeling for them and are much more prepared to allow proper pest control of those species than they are of some others. That is why local authorities have pest divisions that deal with wasps—I have had to use them—mice and rats. What about bedbugs? Until recently, they were fairly common in this country, and in lots of places they are sadly still common. People’s perception of a bedbug is not the same as their perception of deer or seals. We need to have a scientific basis on which to approach this matter.

We could turn to brown hares. Brown hares are on our biodiversity action plan and are rated an important species but, at certain times of the year, in certain parts of the UK, the hare is a pest, and there needs to be the ability to control it. The ability to control pests in the most humane manner possible was a great omission from the badger Act, and we are paying the price for that with the increasing amount of predation of ground-nesting birds by badgers. We have seen it with lapwings and curlews. I have given examples in the environment committee of the destruction of lapwing at the Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust farm up in Aberdeenshire, where the badgers have actually been photographed destroying the nests and reducing species as a result.

During debates on the Environment Bill, we came across the conservation covenants. These will be an important part of the Government’s policy on improving our biodiversity and species number, but, again, action needs to be taken with management in view, not just the habitat.

So, what I am getting at with this amendment is whether the Minister, when he gives the brief to this Committee, will include management and pest control as an important aspect for the animal sentience committee to take into account so that the policies it comments on and the position it urges the Government to take do not contradict with the Government’s well-intentioned position on conservation, biodiversity, crop production and human health.

I have talked mostly about conservation and biodiversity, but I would like to give an example that was raised during the debate on the Environment Bill by my noble friend Lord Lucas, again on deer. It was about a wood that the RSPB looked after in Dorset. The RSPB got round the problem of the deer by fencing that bit of wood so that the deer were no longer a problem. However, that forced the deer on to the neighbour’s land —this is pretty bad management—and the devastation of the crops growing on the adjacent farmland was much more intense because the deer were not allowed into that bit of woodland.

As usual, there is a balance to be struck in all this. I hope that my noble friend will be able to make some comments on this. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity given by my noble friend Lord Caithness in moving his Amendment 35A to probe my noble friend the Minister and the Government a little bit more on the cross-departmental responsibilities of the animal sentience committee. I also want to explore what the relationship will be within Defra and the relationship between existing legislation and soon-to-be legislation in the form of the Agriculture Act and the Environment Bill, the latter of which my noble friend Lord Caithness referred to. We spent some time in the first day of Committee on the amendments looking at pests—particularly deer, badgers, bats, grey squirrels and insects—and sentience. It begs the question: are insects to be treated as sentient beings within the remit of this Bill?

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am very worried about my noble friend. He appears to have a very jaundiced view of human nature. There are a great many people with those skills whom we meet every day, whether we are having our dog treated at the vets or talking to farmers or discussing wider policy areas in this field. I hope I can prove to him that his glass should be half full on this; we will find the right people.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have taken part in this debate, in particular my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering for her helpful contribution. When my noble friend Lord Hamilton intervened, I too immediately thought of cats and the very good debate on cats that we had before my noble friend the Minister joined the House, when the wonderful work and research done by SongBird Survival was referred to, because of the millions of birds that cats take every year.

I listened with care to what my noble friend the Minister said and was heartened by a lot of it. If what he said works in practice, I think that a lot of our concerns will evaporate. My fear is that when he goes and the Ministers change, the committee will undoubtedly change too, and then the trouble will begin. That will be a few years down the road; I do not wish my noble friend to leave his position any time in the next four years or even thereafter, because this committee will be too important.

I am grateful for what my noble friend said. I shall read it. He was absolutely right that this is not an exact science; it is not, but I fear that we have spent too much effort on habitats and not enough on management. Therefore, the problem has been exacerbated. I hope that, with my noble friend’s experience and knowledge, Defra will spend more time on management than it has in the past, because it is only through management combined with habitats, species and the right amounts of food given at the right times of year that we will be able to increase the biodiversity of this country, which has suffered in the recent past. I am happy at this stage to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 35A withdrawn.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, whose name is next on the list, has withdrawn.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Robathan’s Amendment 50 and have added my name to it. It would be a sensible and logical addition to the Bill. It is absolutely right that where men and women are in charge of an animal they are responsible for it being treated in the most humane way possible, but if that same animal is running free and is wild, then it cannot possibly be under the control of a human being. Therefore, the words that my noble friend wishes to include in the Bill would make the position absolutely clear. I support him on that basis.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, who is next on the list, has withdrawn.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Etherton (CB)]

I am speaking to Amendment 31 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, to which I have willingly and gladly added my name.

I start with a question: why has this short Bill, which elaborates on a principle with which we can all agree—that the welfare of sentient animals is important—generated so much criticism and so many amendments? To a large extent, it is obvious from what has been said so far that this is due in part to a lack of particularity in the Bill. Such matters include who and how many will be the members of the animal sentience committee, what authorisation will be required before the committee starts work on any policy, the committee’s relationship with the Animal Welfare Committee, and what options are open to the Government in response to a report and recommendation of the sentience committee.

I suggest that the proposed amendments are in large part because the Bill is entirely negative, in the sense that it seeks to impose restrictions on the way people go about their work, the way they relax and enjoy themselves, and the ways in which they can give effect to their religious values. Such restrictions go to the heart of what we regard as a diverse society in a democratic state. They go to the heart of freedom of personal conduct and belief.

This is why Article 13 of Title II of the Lisbon treaty, which recognises animal sentience and requires full regard to be paid to the welfare of animals, stipulates that member states must nevertheless respect

“the legislative or administrative provisions and customs”

of EU countries

“relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage.”

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, elaborated on the history behind that provision. As he said, the UK was one of the key EU members that lobbied for Article 13, qualified in that way, so there appears to be no reason why a similar qualification is not to be found in the Bill. The provision of that minimum balance is the object of Amendment 31, which uses identical language to that in Article 13, as does Amendment 35 put forward by the noble Earl.

The need for balance in the Bill with the same or similar qualification as in Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty also has a legal aspect. I am not qualified to speak about farming practices. However, recreational activity and adherence to religious practice fall within the protection of the European Convention on Human Rights. Recreational activity, including the enjoyment of country sports, falls within the protection for private and family life in Article 8 of the convention. Limited exceptions to that right are set out in Article 8(2) but, so far as I can see, the only ones that might be relevant are

“the protection of health or morals”

and

“the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”

Even so, a restriction or limitation falling within Article 8.2 is valid only if, among other things, it is proportionate. That is simply a legalistic way of describing the need for balance. Many of the amendments put forward today are essentially concerned to achieve proportionality, including, for example, no retrospectivity in the work and recommendations of the sentience committee and provisions as to its composition.

On religious rites, particularly at issue in the present context is religious animal slaughter. The importance of expressly preserving in the Bill the right of citizens to adhere to their religious practices is perfectly clear. That right, which falls within Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is expressly and necessarily stated in Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty. The jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg has highlighted in many cases the importance of the rights protected by Article 9 in a pluralist, democratic society. Our Human Rights Act 1998, which enabled disputes on convention rights to be resolved in our own courts, contains the specific provision in Section 13 that:

“If a court’s determination of any question arising under this Act might affect the exercise by a religious organisation (itself or its members collectively) of the Convention right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, it must have particular regard to the importance of that right.”


It is not necessary for present purposes to go into the nature of religious animal slaughter in the form of shechita or its Muslim equivalent. There is scientific evidence on both sides of the debate about the humanity of this, but it is clear that the protection of the right to manifest religious belief is enshrined in the treaty obligations we already have and in our own domestic legislation. Therefore, there can be no good reason why, as in the case of Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty, the considerations and recommendations of the sentience committee should not be made expressly subject to respect for religious rites. This would provide balance, clarity, certainty and compliance with Article 9 and Section 13 of the Act.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I hope my noble friend the Minister will give us a full and detailed reply, because there have been so many questions and unfortunately, the Committee being operated in this way because of Covid, we will not be able to cross-examine him in quite the way we would have done when it was sitting normally.

I start from the basis that we ought to retain the current position, which we had just before we left the EU. I therefore support the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, in his Amendment 16. However, Amendment 1, moved by my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom, is absolutely critical; that is, having the composition of the committee and how it operates controlled by regulations. It would be quite wrong for the Government to be able to set up a committee at their own whim and dictate, without coming to Parliament, exactly how it might be composed and operate. I hope my noble friend will be able to be very positive on that amendment.

Could my noble friend also confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, was absolutely right? In speaking to his Amendment 3, the noble Lord drew attention to Clause 2, which says that the committee must comment on policy or what policy might be formulated. Does this mean that it cannot recommend policy to the Minister? If it were able to go off on its own and come forward with a report that says the Government ought to legislate in an area, it would broaden the scope of Clause 2. I hope my noble friend will confirm that it is strictly limited to policy generated by the Government.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Moylan on Amendment 19 and the need for medical research to continue. I hope that is fairly straightforward.

I support what my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising said on vermin. Vermin need to be controlled but they should, quite rightly, be controlled in the most humane manner possible. I raised this during the Environment Bill, when my noble friend Lord Goldsmith moved away from human to natural vermin control but, if one were to pursue that policy and way of thinking, we would have no control of the outcome at all. I hope my noble friend will confirms that, as the apex predator, man has an important role in improving biodiversity.

I conclude by agreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, on judicial review. One can pick a great many holes in the Bill as drafted, and I can see the judicial review process being used more heavily on this Bill than in most other legislation we have considered.

[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 19 and 31, beginning with Amendment 19. We must ensure we can still use animals in the advancement of medical research. A great deal of research still needs to be undertaken in the research and development of vaccines and pharmaceutical drugs. The results of this research must be properly recorded and submitted to the appropriate authorities, before any chemical, biological or surgical treatment is approved for regular use. As such, processes must remain in place for effective certification of all life-saving treatments.

For years, animals have been used as a crucial component in the development process. Pharmaceutical companies have successfully produced a range of medical advances as a result. Drugs, vaccines, surgical procedures, insulin, pain relievers and new traditional supplements—to name a few—have been developed. We are living in a changing world with new diseases or variations on existing illnesses, where there is a need for continuous research and development. For certain diseases, we have not yet found appropriate remedies and the work of R&D is not yet done. Suitable experimentation on animals must continue and improve to offer other potentially life-saving and life-improving products to those in need. It is therefore important that the practice of developing and testing on animals is continued. There should be no interference in this process, as it is for the benefit of humanity, on a global scale.

I add that, in the research and development of vaccines against Covid-19, studies and experiments were undertaken on certain animals to assure the vaccine as effective and safe for use worldwide. I therefore support this amendment, which seeks to ensure the continued existence of this essential aspect of the advancement of our understanding of medical science, for the benefit of the people of the entire world.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Earl that I am open to discussions on any area of the Bill where I feel we can make it better without creating hostages to fortune. I do not want to create a feeding frenzy for lawyers by putting anything in legislation that will increase opportunities for judicial review or any other legal measure. I will clearly be having many discussions with noble Lords from across the House between now and Report. I hope that what will emerge and what we will send to the other place will be a coherent piece of legislation.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Marland that the Government are beginning to alienate quite a large section of the rural community with their attitude towards it at the moment. It would be a retrograde step for my noble friend the Minister to continue in that way. I know that, being a farmer, he will be very sensitive to this. I have three questions for him.

My noble friend the Minister said those dreaded words, “We have nothing to fear”. If we have nothing to fear, let us put it in the Bill. It seems to me utterly logical that if all our concerns are taken care of, we will be much happier if some of our concerns are put in the Bill—which will help satisfy our concerns. I disagree with my noble friend; I still think we have quite a lot to fear from the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 16 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, my noble friend the Minister said that proposed new paragraphs (a) to (f) were too restrictive. If that remit satisfied European law and the Lisbon treaty, could my noble friend tell us why it needs to be increased now? What are the areas of concern? Where do the Government think that their policies are wrong so that they need a committee to have a look at them?

Thirdly and finally, I am grateful that my noble friend will let us see his thoughts on the composition of the committee and how it might work, but are we to be allowed to debate those thoughts and the papers that he will produce? If we cannot debate them, it is pretty unnecessary that we should bother to see them.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend and absolutely defer to him as someone with long experience of legislation, good and bad. I am sorry if saying “Nothing to fear” caused him fear. I was seeking to remind the Committee that we are not talking about something that creates policy; rather, it can inform policymakers. There are a whole host of issues in the minds of Ministers when they formulate new legislation. The Bill allows them to take all of them into consideration and, if needs be, put to one side the concerns of the committee because, weighing them against other matters, they can take a different path.

That is really important. It is fundamental to the Bill. We are trying to reflect what the wider public are concerned about, which is an improved climate of animal welfare in decision-making. We think that what we have brought forward is proportionate. I can debate the content of the committee, its size and wider remit with noble Lords at leisure. I am sure my noble friend agrees that we do not want a committee that is too big or full of sectoral interests, or of one particular interest over another. We want a committee that has expertise and is not trying to carry out some political campaign or is weighted too much in one direction or another. It will be balanced, expert, the right size and properly resourced.

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[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I should like to comment on Amendments 11 and 14. I agree in principle with what has been stated about these two amendments, which are concerned with clarifying the operational capabilities of the animal sentience committee.

I love animals and care deeply about their well-being. I have pets and I was brought up in home where we had chickens, ducks, rabbits, dogs and cats. I formed a bond with these animals and know that they had emotions and felt pain. In my language we say, “An animal is not able to speak but it does have feelings”. Of course, this makes it even more important for us to care for them, which is the reason I support the Bill. However, certain improvements need to be made to address this fact. We must ensure that the animal sentience committee is able to undertake its work as adequately as possible to fulfil its range of responsibilities.

I am a businessman and have been the chairman and chief executive of a successful public company. In business, if a company wants to undertake a project, it must thoroughly work out the details. Thereafter, adequate resources must be provided, including funding, the provision of appropriate staff and the sourcing of suitable accommodation.

Similarly, we must set out quite clearly what we are trying to achieve, and we must set out our objectives throughout. If the intention is to establish and maintain an effective committee, the terms of reference among other things need to be set out in clear terms. Amendments 11 and 14 address these requirements by setting out provisions, making adequate resources available for staffing composition as well as defining the relationship and appropriate consultation between the Secretary of State and the committee. I support all that is set out in the amendments but would like them to be streamlined and consolidated in one properly worded clause.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments put forward by my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, which expand on what we discussed on an earlier amendment. They set out the very minimum that one should expect the Secretary of State to be able to do, particularly Amendment 11. I was interested by what my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering said when she contrasted the rural proofing committee and the proposed committee. Can my noble friend explain to us what the difference will be and how the two committees will be looked at by Defra? A lot of us have pushed hard to give the rural proofing committee more opportunities to work proactively across government departments in much the same way as my noble friend would like this committee to do, but this committee needs an Act of Parliament whereas the rural proofing committee was set up without any reference to Parliament. I would be grateful if my noble friend could explain the difference.

On financing, will my noble friend also take time to tell us what programmes in Defra will be cut or not pursued in order to fund the animal sentience committee? Defra finances are under some strain, and it would be nice if we knew where the cuts were going to be. Perhaps the rural proofing committee will get less funds in order that this one can succeed.

On an associated amendment after Clause 6, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and supported by my noble friend Lady Fookes, neither of them mentioned paragraph 1(5) of their proposed new schedule, which states:

“The Secretary of State may not appoint a person as a member of the Committee if the person is … a member of the House of Lords.”


I can think of two or three people sitting not very far away from me who would be excellent members of the animal sentience committee. I wonder whether my noble friend agrees that to exclude people sitting in any of the Parliaments, here or in the devolved assemblies, is the right way to proceed.

Perhaps this is the right opportunity to pick up a point made at Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, when he mentioned the report due from the LSE. That is crucial to this Bill and how we understand it. What progress has been made on that report? I took advice on putting forward a delaying Motion on this Committee that we do not consider the Bill further until we see that report because it is so relevant to this Bill. If my noble friend cannot help us further, I might consider doing that on Report, because we really need to see the report and its relevance to our discussion on the proposed committee.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I would call the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, but we have a problem with her—but a person put his name forward late, so I call the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with care to what my noble friend said, and I apologise to him if I did not pick up the comment he made, but did he make any comment about the LSE report? It is so relevant to the work of this committee. Has he received it and are we going to see it? What is its relevance to the Bill?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Earl refers to the LSE report on decapods and cephalopods, I assume.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

I refer to the one that was commissioned from the LSE, to which the noble Lord, Lord Trees, referred at Second Reading.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think we are coming to that in a later group of amendments. It has been completed but not peer reviewed and I have not seen it, but it will be available to noble Lords before the next stage of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, has withdrawn from this group, so I call the next speaker, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 8. Very briefly, the reason for this, as has been said by my noble friends Lord Moylan and Lady McIntosh of Pickering, who has a similar amendment, is that we need some practical experience on the committee. Amendment 5, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, sets out some useful ideas for the more theoretical side of animal sentience, but it is equally important to have representatives of those who do these practical jobs in everyday life. Sentience cannot be defined by a single word or sentence; it is much more complicated than that. Therefore, one needs that practical experience besides the theory. I hope my noble friend will tell us a little more of his thoughts on that.

[Baroness Mallalieu (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall be brief and wish to ask for further reassurance from the Minister. I totally understand that he does not want to be too prescriptive in the Bill as to the composition of this committee, but I was troubled by a word he used earlier—“balance”. The composition of the committee is crucial to its success. The people he puts on it surely need to be independent, expert, properly qualified and not drawn from pressure groups on either side of the animal welfare debate.

They also have to be brave, because they are highly likely to be heavily lobbied at some points in their careers on the committee. The Minister will know that the animal rights movement in this country, limited though it is in number, is very well financed and expert at using bullying online, making people’s businesses suffer and mass lobbying. In extreme cases it is proficient at criminal damage and serious violence.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 16th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I regret that my noble friend the Minister has been landed with this as his first Bill back as a Defra Minister. I exonerate him of having any of his fingerprints on this piece of legislation that we must consider.

When the Government did not roll forward Article 13 of the Lisbon treaty—which had at least some balance in it—I was interested in what they would do when they introduced their own legislation. My noble friend started his speech by saying this was a new chapter. It is not a new chapter. Virtually every noble Lord has mentioned 200 years of legislation; this is just another part of the process that has been going on for some time. You do not actually need primary legislation to set up a committee, unless it will do something constructive, has a remit and is defined, and all that has been discussed by Parliament.

As so many noble Lords have said, the credibility of the committee will depend on who sits on it, what evidence it takes and how independent it is, but we know absolutely none of the answers to those questions. We are talking about a committee that can be appointed, sacked, disbanded or enlarged; we have no idea what the heck the Government are talking about. It is absolutely key that we tighten that up in Committee.

I hope that my noble friend paid particular attention to the speech of my noble friend Lady Foster of Oxton. She reminded us that there are many laws in Europe, but very few of them are implemented and no country takes them very seriously. My noble friend Lady Redfern mentioned the problems of farrowing pens, tail docking of pigs and hen cages. However, this committee the Government have set up—this wonderful thing that will cross all government departments—will take evidence and give advice to the Foreign Office and the Department for International Trade. My noble friend Lady McIntosh must not worry too much; I have no doubt that the committee will say that we will not be allowed to trade with Europe because it has the wrong farrowing pens and bird cages and that the beef from Australia is poorly produced compared to here. What will be the effect of this committee on our foreign and trade policy? I hope my noble friend has thought that through.

My noble friend Lord Herbert is right that we must not confuse animal rights with animal welfare. We are all pro-animal welfare, but animal rights are a very different and much more subtle thing to get right. Will my noble friend the Minister confirm that the report that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, reminded the House about has been commissioned by Defra and that the Committee stage will be deferred until that report has been received and we have read it? It is pointless to take us through Committee when we are waiting for a report that will give us a definition. That abuses this House. I hope my noble friend will be very firm with his department on that.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, mentioned the rural proofing committee. We had some hopes that rural proofing would be done properly. A committee was set up; its first report was fairly diabolical and gave us no confidence that the committee, which also crosses all government departments, would make any headway at all. The counterargument to everything I have just said is that I do not need to worry at all about this committee because it will go the same way as the rural proofing committee and the Government will ignore everything it suggests.

My noble friend Lord Bellingham quoted my noble friend Lord Moore. I will quote him too: the consequence of this Bill

“will surely be an ever-greater resort to the courts, with pressure groups using committee reports as their weapons of ‘lawfare’. The committee could become a Trojan horse for extremism—and the Trojan horse, let us remember, was not a sentient animal, but a collection of sentient human beings using animal disguise to effect capture”—

the sort of people my noble friend Lord Ridley was talking about.

There is potential good from this committee, but also an awful lot of gesture politics. I fear that the Government will find it too difficult and be blackmailed into implementing some extremist reports from the committee unless we know more about it and have greater control over what it does in future.

Agri-environment Schemes: Permissive Access

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Thursday 27th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Local access fora are absolutely vital in this, and what is decided at governmental level is often unimportant when you get down to the ground. Local access fora have been brilliant at bringing together farming and landowning interests with the desires and needs of walkers. I will also say that we are also encouraging farms to group together in clusters as part of the environmental land management scheme, so we can get improved access across a landscape, rather than just across an existing farm.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that 2026 is still the cut-off date for mapping historical rights of way—footpaths? Is he aware that the stakeholder group In All Our Footsteps refuses to communicate with a number of people who have written to it? Will he please ensure, if he wants proper consultation, that he gets such groups to do their job properly?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will look into the latter point that my noble friend makes, but I can confirm that, at present, 2026 is the cut-off date for recording historical footpaths. There is provision under the legislation to extend that by five years, but I think most people want to get on with this and get it recorded. That will provide clarity for the farmer and land manager, and an opportunity for walking groups as well.

Direct Payments to Farmers (Reductions and Simplifications) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Monday 22nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, it is a reflection of the strange times in which we live that there is not a single person on the Labour, Liberal or Cross Benches actually in the Chamber. It is the first time I have taken part in a debate in your Lordships’ House in over 50 years where this has been the case. Ah, we do have a Liberal Democrat finally arriving—a little late, but do not worry.

I support what the noble Earl, Lord Devon, said about drones, but I want to raise some other points for my noble friend. What does he expect to happen to the underspend on the basic payment system, particularly as we near 2024? Does he expect the Treasury to put its sticky mitts on this, or will it be recycled into Defra’s budget?

Is my noble friend still convinced that the timeframe for the national pilots and the full rollout of ELMS and other schemes by 2027 is feasible? He will recall that we debated on the then Agriculture Bill that a delay of one year might be a sensible option. Given the problems in the countryside at the moment, I wonder if this is a matter at which he should look again.

I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said about future years, but I also think that there is certainly not enough information about the new scheme. The pain is clear for the farming community but the possible gain is very unclear.

I would like to ask my noble friend about the engagement with land managers and other stakeholders on the design of ELMS and the transitional arrangements. From what I have heard, there is some engagement, but people say that it is not as effective as it should be.

It is apparent that not enough credit is being given by Defra to the farmers for the work that they undertake on a voluntary basis which has maintained our countryside in the beautiful state that it is still in—the enormous amount of money and time that they have spent on biodiversity schemes, planting hedges and keeping wildlife. I hope that this is an area that my noble friend will be keen to make certain is taken fully into account.

While I am on wildlife, I turn to the problem of access, which I raised during discussions on the then Agriculture Bill. It is clear that, during Covid, people’s attitudes and behaviours in the countryside are fairly reprehensible at times. The leaving open of gates, the amount of litter and the wilful misconduct in the countryside are alarming, given that the Agriculture Act of last year actually encourages people to go to the countryside. There is a Countryside Code; I do not have that much experience of it in England, but I certainly do in Scotland. At the entry gate of a property belonging to a charity which I run, and which is a heritage project, I have on a board the equivalent of the English Countryside Code. I am amazed by the number of tourists and visitors who do not read it, and, if they do read it, they wilfully ignore it. We have had fires, destruction and the removal of historic stones by people. That property is there for people to come and enjoy—not come and destroy.

What is my noble friend doing to make certain that visitors to the countryside, whom we welcome, are better educated and have more respect for the countryside than appears at present? Is he concerned that the alarming increase in the ownership of pets, particularly dogs, will cause a problem for farmers? When people get access to the countryside, they will take their dogs there and, unless the dogs are well trained and managed and kept on a lead, there is every chance that they will harass wildlife and cause distress for farmers. I hope my noble friend can assure me that Defra is looking at these important issues.

Fishing Sector and Coastal Communities

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, these are important points and we are seeking an urgent resolution to the matter of live bivalve molluscs from class B waters. We have an extremely strong legal case and we are awaiting a meeting with the commissioner. I should say that those businesses impacted by this disruption to trade can apply for support via the seafood response fund, which seeks to ensure that the shellfish sector is supported during this difficult period.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on expanding the seafood support scheme, but that scheme ran out on 31 January. Will it be extended into next month? May I also follow up on the point made by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury in a slightly wider form? What are the Government doing to help fishermen sell more fish to the British people and get us to eat the fish that they produce rather than sending it overseas?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, on 21 February we announced the seafood response fund, which will expand the support to help with the fixed costs of shellfish catch and aquaculture businesses. That fund is to open in early March, which I think covers the point made by my noble friend. I agree that we need to eat more fish and that we need to promote greater consumer awareness of the number of species in UK waters. Through Seafish and the Domestic Seafood Supply Scheme, we are looking to increase the domestic consumption of our excellent produce.

UK Shellfish Exports

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Tuesday 9th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, that is precisely why we wish to discuss with Commissioner Kyriakides a situation that we do not think is founded on a correct interpretation of the law. It is clear that the fishing and shellfish industries are going through difficulties, as the noble Lord said, partly because of a reduction in demand due to Covid and partly because of issues that we need to resolve. However, in the long term this is a very important part of our food supply and we will support it.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is frustrating that the EU is behaving in the way it is on so many issues. Would be it possible to get the class B waters up to class A, as in Scotland? Is it economically feasible to have our own processing and cleansing plants here, so that we can produce the end product rather than having to let the Europeans do that for us?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My noble friend makes an important point, which is that we all need to work on improving water quality—it is part of the 25-year environment plan and it is addressed in the Environment Bill. We believe that the depuration capacity in GB is sufficient to depurate all oysters produced in GB, but there is insufficient cover for the depuration of mussels, for instance. The £100 million fishing fund could be used to support traders setting up, for instance, a depuration centre. We will continue to explore all those options.

Genetically Modified Food

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, organic farmers undertake a very important role in producing great products. There are regulations about these matters and the way in which GM crops are engaged in the environment, and they will continue.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, in making assessments of health and environmental risks, which have a huge impact on conservation, biodiversity and land management, the risks and consequences of both action and inaction will be considered equally?

Brexit: Farmers

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I call the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

I do not think we have the noble Earl, in which case the time allowed for this Question has—ah, he is there.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

I have been unmuted now. I was not unmuted, which is why I could not be heard. May I complete my question?

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Yes, please continue.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

Thank you very much. At what exchange rate are the payments being made, and does the 10% cut in the CAP budget mean that our farmers are going to get a 10% cut?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

That is an interesting point. We decided that we would use the 2019 exchange rates; against the 2015 exchange rates, there is a 22% advantage in using the 2019 exchange rates and I suggest that that is a very good thing for our farmers. I would also say that my noble friend is absolutely right: the EU CAP budget for 2021 to 2027 is going to be cut by 10%. Our manifesto pledge was to maintain £3.6 billion for UK farmers. That is our commitment and we continue with that.