Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Monday 8th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to oppose Amendment 157 and speak to Amendment 164 in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe. I am currently drinking only small amounts of alcohol, so I have no personal interest in this matter.

I have listened carefully to the arguments in support of Amendment 157, but I still do not believe it will have the effect desired. I think that all noble Lords in the Committee will agree that any consumption of alcohol will lead to a deterioration in driving standards and increase the risk of an accident. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, asked where the current limit comes from. The Grand Rapids study of 1964 showed that the risk of having an accident rapidly increased at a blood alcohol concentration—BAC—of 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood or the equivalent. That is why our current limit is set at that level, and I think that is the correct level.

My understanding is that compliant drivers feel uncomfortable driving with a BAC of more than 30 milligrams. My feeling is that the majority of drivers adhere strictly to a limit of 50 milligrams in any case, and when they are caught driving at more than 80 milligrams, it is often a stupid, but criminal, mistake which can arise for a variety of reasons which I will not weary the Committee with. The evidence for this contention is that when the 50-milligram limit was introduced in Scotland, the initial compliance improved by only 12% and I suggest that when a contravention occurred and was detected, it was often the kind of “mistake” I referred to. In this country, we rightly have severe penalties for exceeding the current limit; it is also socially unacceptable. Other countries, as observed by noble Lords, have a limit of 50, but without the severe penalties, at that BAC, that we have.

After the Scottish Government lowered their BAC limit, the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and I were very keen to see the data, but, I suspect, for slightly different reasons. I was worried that I might be wrong. If that had turned out to be case, I would be supporting Amendment 157. The Scottish Government commissioned research to measure the effect of their changes to the BAC limit. The conclusions were that the change made no detectable difference to the accident rate in Scotland. I never expected it to, and I will explain why in a moment. The Committee will have been grateful for the frankness of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, when he touched on this point.

The proponents of Amendment 157 will have to explain to the Committee why they think the results in England and Wales would be any different from those in Scotland. According to 2019 DfT statistics, of a sample size of 243 dead drivers, 34% had a BAC of 10 or more, so had been drinking, 25% had a BAC of 51 or more, 23% of 81 or more, 22% of 101 or more, 16% of 151 or more, and 5% were at 200. What these figures show is that most non-compliant drivers are not just slightly over the limit, but far over the limit.

I have argued from the government Dispatch Box that there is a cohort of drivers who are unregulated drinkers. They are clinically dependent upon alcohol, they do not know how much they have been drinking, and they pay absolutely no attention whatever to the legal limits—thus, changing the limit will have no effect on them. The police do not find it very difficult to detect drunk drivers who have made the criminal mistake I have already referred to. They tend to overcompensate and drive too cautiously, and so give themselves away, and thus can be legally stopped by the police. Unfortunately, an unregulated driver is much more difficult to detect. They will drive fluidly for relatively short distances, and therefore with a lower chance of even being seen by the police, let alone being caught.

As proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, the only way of dealing with and detecting these very dangerous drivers who are unregulated drinkers is for the police to undertake operations where they stop every driver to check that they have not been drinking. I accept that the amendment might not be perfectly drafted, and that some civil rights precautions may have to be put in. However, not only would the police detect more of these very dangerous drivers but the deterrent effect would be considerable. Although it may be imperfect, Amendment 164 achieves this.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the Road Danger Reduction Forum. I support both these amendments. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have such high alcohol limits, and we really ought to bring them down. We should say that no alcohol is permitted when you are driving—when you are in charge of a tonne of metal.

I want to make a small point, but it is something that road safety campaigners care very much about. We have heard the word “accident” used a lot. Road safety campaigners ask that we do not use the word “accident”, because that presupposes that it was accidental. It prejudges the situation, and that is clearly not right when something might come to court. They ask instead that we use the words “incident”, “collision” or even “crash”, but not “accident”. There is also an argument for saying that we should not use the words “road safety”, because that is the solution to the problem; the problem itself is “road danger”. We have to get our head around these differences, because it changes the way we perceive such situations.

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To extend the breath test power to one of needing no grounds could potentially lead to concerns about disproportionality and targeting of certain groups; the Committee will recall the debate we had last week on stop and search powers. That could have a detrimental effect on community relations and cohesion, as well as damaging wider efforts to prevent and detect those who drink and drive.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

If the police stopped every vehicle travelling along a certain road, how would that be unfair and disproportionately impact certain communities?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

With respect to my noble friend, it would very much depend on the road and how the policy was being implemented, which would be an operational consideration, but I take his point.

I am very happy to put the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and others who have spoken in this short debate in touch with the Road Safety Minister in the Department for Transport so that they can continue to discuss the further important issues raised by these amendments. I can sense the mood of the Committee, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, quoted some very powerful statistics on public attitudes here, so I urge noble Lords to seek that meeting.

Finally, before I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, I associate myself with my noble friend Lord Wolfson’s remarks about the personal comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter; she has my deepest sympathy. For now, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

With respect, I do not know whether the noble Lord is being unfair, because I do not have the statistics. I will write to him.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My concern is that the Minister does not seem to have any policy that directly targets those drivers who I would describe as unregulated drinkers. His policy may have an effect on people who have made the mistake that I referred to and have around 80 milligrammes of alcohol in their blood, but for the unregulated drinkers who drive far in excess of the legal limit, his policies seem to be totally irrelevant.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. Other than the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who raised some objections, and I will come to them in a moment, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who raised a point about what the police can and cannot do, and the Minister, who had a different interpretation, I think everybody has been singing from the same hymn sheet. The evidence is there and it has got worse. The Government have the opportunity today to set out their stall on what they intend to do. While the Minister has done his best, he has been trying to make bricks without straw. I think the group is very happy to come together and have a meeting with appropriate people on the Government’s side. We will be very pleased to do that, but I give the Minister due notice that this is coming back on Report. It is not going to be left as it is at the moment; some change is required.

Regarding 50 milligrams, I would probably go for 20—the Scandinavian figure. I am sure that the Minister would argue it would make no difference. What matters is the message that is sent to the public at large about what is and is not acceptable. It is wrong that the Government permit a dangerous limit to be in force. Okay, 50 may not be the right limit, but it is less dangerous. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that the evidence comes from the work to which we referred. It did not look just at the 80 but at 50, and the further down you go, the less the risk. It is a simple fact of life. The Government either accept it and live with it or change it. I believe that the public are ready for change and that it is wrong that so many people are being maimed and having serious injuries, and the number has been rising. This needs addressing. This matter will come back.

I was very reasonable. I did not make a great thing about Scotland, as I know that some of the evidence is not helpful. There are other counterarguments, which my noble friend Lord Rosser on the Front Bench, advanced in defence of the Scottish position but it is not as comforting as we would wish. The issue is about how we relate to the public at large and how the Government project what is needed to make a change. We are not looking to involve a great deal more police in it or to upset people by being disproportionate. We are looking to present a deterrent. Most people will change their attitude if they think they are at risk of being stopped, and we would start to see some change taking place. We will have the meeting but this will be back on Report.

I suggest to the Minister that he should explore being a bit more flexible. We are prepared to put a sunset clause in the amendment so that the Government can go back to 80 if they wish or to run an experiment, but it is time to make some change rather than leaving life as it was way back in 2015 and see a continual worsening of the position. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

In doing a little bit of research for this, I went on to the internet and put in “road traffic offences exceptional hardship”. I think I referred in an earlier intervention earlier to the huge legal business that exists to assist drivers who wish to contest some of the allegations against them for their driving. If you put that phrase into a search engine, first of all, you find a huge number of law firms giving you chapter and verse on the ways in which one can plead exceptional hardship. Pressing where it says “videos” gives a whole series of videos where very convincing lawyers, looking very smooth, tell you with a great degree of confidence—probably on the basis of some financially lucrative experience—just how it is possible to contest a ban and plead exceptional hardship. The very fact that it is so easy to find and is clearly a large and lucrative business tells us immediately that something is clearly wrong. The law is, to some extent, making an ass of itself. For those who are able to benefit from it, it is a very profitable endeavour.

Having a licence is not a right; it is a privilege. If people misuse and abuse that privilege, it is completely right that it should be removed. An awful lot of those people who do regard it genuinely as a right, and are deeply affronted at the idea that they should be stopped, are precisely the people against whom a ban is the most effective. In many cases, their driving and their ability to be seen by others driving, often rather flagrantly, is part of their persona and part of their identity. In a sense, removing their ability to drive is a form of emasculation. Despite being male, I am all in favour of emasculation when it comes to an egregious offence like that.

Again, we are looking at huge inconsistency. I will use only one example; it is such an egregious example that I hope your Lordships will forgive me. There is a gentleman called Alex McFarlane who, in only three months—between June and August 2014, so in one year—triggered safety cameras seven times and did not respond to a single penalty notice. In that three months, he managed to rack up a total of 42 points on his driving licence. When he came in front of the magistrates in Southend, what did he say? He said, “If banned, I will lose my job and my home, and I will be unable to pay off my debts”. The second point he made was the clincher. “Since the incident”, he claimed, “I have been treated for a nervous breakdown, which led to a spending spree and me incurring very heavy debts”. The magistrates accepted his plea. I rest my case.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to support the noble Baroness. My only complaint is that I do not think it is aggressive enough. I have driven for several decades. I have driven for hundreds of thousands of miles. Touch wood, I have never been prosecuted for a moving traffic offence. The penalty points system is a good system. If I picked up three points for speeding, or for some minor offence, I would be extremely careful not to reoffend. So I do not understand why, if people get a few points, they cannot take the lesson and be compliant. I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and actually agree with him for a change. The wording is not strong enough, so well done to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for putting this amendment forward.

As the noble Baroness said, at the moment, “exceptional hardship” is anything but exceptional. I cite the case of a person who was exempted from a ban because he said that he had to walk his dog and drive to the nearest park, which was a mile away. I find that absolutely extraordinary; it leads me to think that magistrates ought to get a bit more tuition.

Essentially, points on a licence and the threat of losing that licence are an important part of ensuring that people drive safely and take care of other road users. Around 8,800 people are still driving despite having 12 or more points on their licence, and there is a whole industry of solicitors advising drivers on how to work the system in this way. It is very frustrating for the traffic police who care about enforcing the law and find themselves working hard to bring people to justice and get them convicted, only to see those people allowed to drive home after the case.

There are times when hardship may be truly exceptional, for example if an offender is the sole carer of a person with a disability who would suffer if the offender were unable to drive. Even then, it is a failure of the state if the only way a person with a disability can survive is by getting lifts from a person who is such a dangerous driver that they should not be allowed on the road.

Amendment 158 would ensure that “exceptional hardship” is a true exception rather than just a plea of convenience. Our current road traffic laws, as I started to say earlier, are based far too much on the convenience of drivers rather than justice and safety for other road users. This amendment would ensure that the very worst drivers on the roads do not have a convenient excuse to keep driving.

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Moved by

[Earl Attlee]

169B: After Clause 76, in subsection (1), after the word “liable,” insert “provided that the conditions in subsection (4) are met,”

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for moving his amendment. On its own, it would be unacceptable because it would unfairly penalise the driver of the lorry. The Committee will be aware that we are already exceptionally short of HGV drivers; I think the noble Lord touched on that. It would also be unfair to the operator because the incident may have been caused by the misconduct of the driver deviating from the appropriate route. I must tell the Committee that it is not always easy to determine the overall height of a vehicle. Mistakes can be made. The driver can be incorrectly informed of the overall height of the piece that he is carrying.

My amendments to Amendment 169A would require technology to be in place before the new penalties are available. Surely we can have electronic systems put in place to make these incidents entirely avoidable. Such a system would warn the driver, before he or she gets to the point of no return, that the vehicle will not safely pass under a bridge. This would enable the driver to take their vehicle on an alternative, safe route. With the data provisions of my amendment, it would also be possible for manufacturers to provide automatic GPS-facilitated warning systems; however, that system would rely on correctly knowing the overall height of the vehicle, whereas my proposals for static infrastructure would not. I will not weary the Committee at this late hour with further technical details.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for supporting my amendment to his amendment. He talked about the inconvenience that these incidents cause. He is of course correct. Most incidents involve large van-type vehicles and normally the bridge wins, although careful and time-consuming post-incident technical checks may still be necessary. That is what causes the inconvenience.

I operate a tank transporter on behalf on the REME Museum. The tank weighs 50 tonnes and the loaded transporter is 14 foot high. If the tank hits the railway bridge, the tank wins. If the train arrives shortly thereafter, a serious incident will inevitably arise. The reason why abnormal loads rarely hit railway bridges is that these movements are carefully planned in advance, in conjunction with the various authorities. Generally speaking, unauthorised route variations do not take place. However, heavy engineering equipment is also moved under normal construction and use regulations when it is not particularly heavy or wide. One day, a bridge will get hit hard by one of these loads. It is only a matter of time. An awful tragedy could then follow.

We can avoid this by agreeing to the amended amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, or something like it. It may not be perfect but the Minister can attend to that. All we are asking is that he takes the steps to make sure that these incidents cannot take place. We have the technology in place. I appreciate that there is a difficulty in that Network Rail does not have any authority on the roads near the railway bridge, but the Minister will have to take the necessary powers to deal with that problem.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his introduction and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw added his name to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but apologises because he is unable to be here this evening.

It strikes me that it is clearly not in the interests of hauliers or HGV drivers to hit a bridge. It costs a great deal of money all round. It is probably proportionately more damaging for a small haulage company that experiences damage to its vehicle, many hours of lost time and so on than it is for the train operating company. However, I have been on a Great Western train that was held up for some hours as a result of a bridge strike. If you multiply the two or three hours that we sat there by the number of people on the train, the cost of the whole incident becomes considerable.

Why is it is happening so often? Is it because there is not enough training of drivers? If that is the case, I am very concerned because the test for new drivers is becoming simpler and more streamlined, so things are not going to get better there. Is that there is a lack of adequate signage? Is it that the signage is in the wrong place? It has to be well in advance of the bridge because drivers cannot just stop on a sixpence in a large lorry. Is the signage not maintained or inspected? It would be interesting to hear from the Minister the solutions to this problem and how the situation can be improved. Clearly, seven incidents a day are not desirable and really should not be happening in those numbers. There is a particular problem with equipment such as cranes that are loaded on to a flatbed lorry, because the driver may not know the height of this particular lot of equipment.

Noble Lords have suggested lots of solutions. I am interested in the Government’s response.

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[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and my noble friend Lord Attlee for explaining these amendments. I reassure them and other noble Lords that the Government take this issue seriously and think it important. We recognise the serious risk to the travelling public that results from drivers striking and damaging bridges.

It is my understanding that this amendment seeks not to create a new offence but instead to create a new and specific penalty, for striking guided transport system structures, most notably railway bridges, to be applied to broader offences such as careless driving. I do not think that is needed. The penalties available for the offences for which a driver can already be charged in these circumstances are adequate to reflect the seriousness of the offence. The offences include careless, inconsiderate and dangerous driving or, where appropriate, drink-driving or drug-driving. For example, an offence of careless driving attracts an endorsement of three to nine penalty points on the driver’s licence, an unlimited fine, and a discretionary disqualification from driving for such period as the court thinks fit. Damage to property is a factor in the sentencing guidance indicating greater harm, which can lead to a higher sentence. If a driver were found to be under the influence of drink or drugs, the penalties available would include custodial sentences, unlimited fines and driving disqualifications.

As my noble friend will be aware, warning and regulatory signs already exist to indicate low bridges and to ensure that drivers are given information about alternative routes in time to adjust their journeys. I take my noble friend’s points about routes and so on, which he made most forcefully. Those signs are prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 and can be used by local authorities without reference to the Department for Transport. Local authorities are responsible for placing traffic signs on their roads, and the Department for Transport provides advice to them on the use of these signs in the Traffic Signs Manual. Disobeying a regulatory sign indicating a low bridge is already an offence that attracts an endorsable fixed penalty notice and may lead to the disqualification of the driver. Network Rail can reclaim some of the cost of repairing any damage from the insurer of the vehicle that hits the bridge. The Government are satisfied that the existing offences, penalties and route to a claim for damage are sufficient.

I am afraid that I cannot answer the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about why this happens so frequently. I imagine there are a whole variety of factors. As to the concerns from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I will of course take those back; we need at least to understand this issue a little better, so I will commit to doing that. That being the case I urge the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, to withdraw his amendment.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid the Minister’s response is a little disappointing. I was hoping he would say a bit more about what use we could make of technology and whether Network Rail would experience any difficulties in putting some of its infrastructure, say, half a mile away from its bridges. Does Network Rail have the power to put infrastructure on the road system, perhaps half a mile away from a bridge, in order to provide a warning for a driver that he is over height —something similar to what is done at the Blackwall tunnel?

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about training. It occurred to me that we could make it a part of HGV driver training that the driver of a lorry was required to compare his vehicle’s height to that of any infrastructure that he went under. On approaching a railway bridge he could say, “My height is 14 feet and the height of the bridge is 15 feet, so we’re fine.” If every time he went under a bridge he considered orally whether he could get under it, that might be a good starting point and might actually make a difference.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed and to the Minister for his response. I am afraid my view is that, however much he may say there is existing legislation, it is not working. That is clear. It is quite difficult for a driver to find the height of his vehicle. I spent several decades working in the rail freight sector, and trying to get a container on a rail wagon under a road bridge going over a railway was difficult because all these vehicles, be they rail or road, have suspensions so, depending on the load, the wagon or vehicle goes up and down. Still, given the rules that affect the railway sector, what we have in the road sector is frankly pretty weak.

I fully support the idea of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that there should be much greater emphasis on putting the information on to electronic GPSes, which I think most lorries have. One has to assume that the driver can read; that is probably not always the case but it is something to start from. He asked whether Network Rail had the power to build something away from the network. My answer is: in most cases, no. It would have to talk to landowners, seek planning permission and so on, although putting up a post with an electronic beam going across would be all right. On the continent, people do something rather better, and in France it is particularly evident: on a low bridge there is a steel structure, a portal frame, with bells and spikes on. It is clearly marked with its height, but if you see something up ahead with spikes and you are driving a lorry with rather a valuable load, you will probably stop and think before going through it. A few of those on the worst-offending bridges would be quite good.

Lastly, I suppose, I hope that the Minister will encourage Network Rail to take proceedings to reclaim as much of the cost as seems relevant, because some of them behave like a good old-fashioned nationalised industry and say “Well, you know, this is one of those things: let’s try to get a bit back.” They should be quite aggressive about it, while making sure that their own information is on these electronic guides and maps and everything like that.

I will look carefully at what the Minister says, and we may come back with something on which to seek a meeting before Report. I am conscious that the wording in my amendment is rather amateur, and after listening to what he has said it would be good to talk to him and Network Rail again, as well as to other colleagues, to see whether we can come up with a solution that encourages and educates but also takes action against people who do not do as they should. On that basis, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.