EU Exit Preparations: Ferry Contracts

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I will leave my right hon. Friend to make his point, because I do not want to start debating discussions within the Government.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun asked why we started this procurement when we did. As I have said, we and the national health service had been preparing for disruption at the ports lasting approximately six weeks after exit day. However, based on the negotiations, on comments coming from Brussels and on what we saw happening on the other side of the channel, the analysts changed that assumption late last autumn and recommended that Government prepare for a longer period of disruption.

At that point, the Department of Health and Social Care rightly highlighted the fact that that would put significant pressures on their stockpiles of drugs. The Government therefore collectively decided following discussions in Cabinet Committees to go to the ferry industry to secure capacity to guarantee the delivery of drugs to this country in the event of a no-deal Brexit. That was a collective decision, and it was the right decision. We talked to all the current ferry operators working across the North sea and the English channel, plus any other operator with tangible plans to do so. That is where the procurement came from.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Is this not the key question, however? Did the right hon. Gentleman have advice from his officials that negotiations solely with ferry companies would result in a legal challenge by Eurotunnel, which ultimately he has now paid off with a £33 million investment from taxpayers?

[Chris Grayling]

We knew, in accelerating the procurement process, that there was a legal risk. That has been highlighted in the NAO report. However, it was my judgment, the judgment of my accounting officer and the judgment of those who vetted the plan across the Government that that was a risk that we should take, given the need to ensure that we had a supply of drugs into the country in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

[David Hanson]

The right hon. Gentleman has said that there was a legal judgment that there was an element of risk. He took that risk, and his actions have therefore cost the state £33 million.

[Chris Grayling]

We took a collective decision, in the light of the legal advice, which was taken by me, by my accounting officer, and by those who approved this across the Government, and we did so—[Interruption.] We did so because we judged it important to ensure that we had a proper supply of drugs to the NHS in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I challenge Labour Members, as they chunter from the Front Bench, to say that they disagree with ensuring a supply of drugs to the UK in a no-deal Brexit.

Seaborne Freight

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 11th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We made provision in the contracts that we signed with Brittany Ferries and DFDS for additional capacity on other routes, that were not in our original mix. Those are options that we are free to take up and we will have cross-Government discussions in the next few days to assess current needs and forecasts and see whether that is required.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State says that there are no costs to Government, so for the avoidance of any doubt, will he place in the Library the costs of any legal fees and the numbers and types of civil servants working on both the pre-work and the cancellation? Will he tell us the total cost of all that to the taxpayer?

[Chris Grayling]

My Department is accruing a bill of many, many millions of pounds, preparing for a no-deal Brexit in a whole variety of different areas—we are working on maritime, aviation and haulage—and I regularly answer questions about those amounts through written questions. I am also always happy to place information on those amounts in the Library of the House.

Seaborne Freight

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that is normal, and we do not actually do enough of it. The Government are frequently criticised for contracting only with big business and not with small business. Ironically, now we are contracting with small business for a small part of a package we need, we are getting criticised for it, so we cannot win either way.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), will the Secretary of State confirm that one director of this company owes £580,000 to HMRC from a previous failed administration? Will he say what due diligence was undertaken on that contract? Will he also tell us how we are going to repay that money to the Treasury?

[Chris Grayling]

I am not going to comment on individual tax affairs. All I am going to say is that due diligence was carried out into the participants in this business and no reason was found why they should not contract with Government.

Rail Update

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is now very much my approach. My view is that if the service is really good, revenues will follow. While it is absolutely essential that one seeks to achieve best value for the taxpayer in a bidding process, there is already a different balance between the amount of money bid and quality, and the balance will continue to evolve towards quality. That is what matters to passengers, and what drives revenues.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

If the Secretary of State rushed, he would just about get the 6.10 from Euston to Flint in north Wales, and it would cost him £283 for a return ticket. In the next two years of the direct award franchise for the west coast main line, does he expect prices to stabilise, or indeed fall?

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman is an astute Member of the House, and I have no doubt that he would have bought an advance ticket for a fraction of the sum he mentioned. Really good value is available on the west coast main line, although for those who turn up at the last minute—as, indeed, is the case with airlines and many other forms of transport—there is a higher price to pay. I believe that since the passenger numbers on the west coast main line continue to rise and services continue to be rated good, the current operators must be doing something right.

Rail Update

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Kettering is a fine town and a well represented constituency, and I can absolutely understand the case that my hon. Friend and Kettering would make for its hosting the operating team. He is absolutely right that it is at the heart of the midland main line. It might have some competition from Derby and others, but he makes a strong case.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned in the Budget last week the north Wales growth deal, which includes a proposal for a metro linking north Wales and the north-west of England much more effectively. Has the Secretary of State received a cheque from the Chancellor?

[Chris Grayling]

Actually, it was my suggestion that we look at the project. I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman and understood the argument, and the Chancellor has provided development funding so that we can take that work forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 30th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

12. What steps he is taking to improve transport links between north Wales and England.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Chris Grayling)]

The Government are investing in major signalling renewals on the north Wales line to improve reliability and, after years of waiting, in the Halton curve. This will improve rail connectivity between north Wales, west Cheshire and the Liverpool city region, including Liverpool John Lennon airport. Our recently announced national productivity investment fund will also support local authority investment on the A483 corridor between Chester and Wrexham.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful for that answer, and the Minister knows that I support all of those initiatives, but will he consider the letter sent to him by Conservative and Labour Members of Parliament on behalf of the Mersey Dee Alliance and Cheshire East council asking him to look at the developments of High Speed 2 and the hub at Crewe? Building on that progress will help connectivity on behalf of all of us in the region.

[Chris Grayling]

I know all about the letter, and indeed had a meeting to discuss the issue yesterday. I am seized of the necessity to make sure that north Wales does not miss out in the investment that we are putting into our rail network. We will bring forward our thoughts in due course, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is very much top of mind in the Department.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 28th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend and Opposition Members who represent steel towns have done a really important job in recent weeks of reminding us of the importance of this industry. I commend him, and them, for that. I am happy to say that I can lay on just such an opportunity, because next week we have Business, Innovation and Skills questions and he will be able to put his point to the Secretary of State then.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Hot off the press this morning is early-day motion 1432.

[That this House notes last week’s by-election in the House of Lords, which saw Viscount Thurso elected to the other place following the sad death of Lord Avebury; further notes the size of the electorate was only three; calls into question the legitimacy of this by-election; believes now is the time for the abolition of the remaining 92 hereditary peers’ right to vote and speak in the House of Lords; and agrees to bring forward the second stage of reform following the House of Lords Reform Act 1999.]

That backs up the Bill I introduced on Tuesday to abolish the right of hereditary peers to vote and to speak in the House of Lords. Given that there are currently the same number of Members on the Government Front Bench as voted in the election of a hereditary peer last week, is it not time that we had a debate on ending this farcical process?

[Chris Grayling]

What always slightly puzzles me is that although Labour was in power for 13 years and brought through House of Lords reform, it did not address the issue on which Labour Members are calling for change. I think we all admit that there was something curiously quaint about the Liberal Democrat electorate of three, but of course one has to cut them a bit of slack because there are so few of them these days. My view is that there are pressing issues facing this country, and dealing with the Lib Dem electorate of three is probably not at the top of the list.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

There are plenty of avenues that would allow the hon. Gentleman to call such a debate, such as the Backbench Business Committee or the Adjournment debate system. We have had to take difficult decisions about the pension age, against the background of an ever-ageing population. The previous Government took similar decisions. It is a reality that people will retire later than they would have done in the past. We will continue to have discussions with Members about the detail, but we cannot escape the reality that we face.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House tell me when the next meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee is likely to be? It has not met since the election and it met only once in the year before the election, yet prior to that it met eight times a year on average. I knew that he was keen on Welsh MPs not speaking in English debates, but I had not realised that he had extended that to Welsh debates.

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman does talk a lot nonsense sometimes. As he knows, I have never sought to exclude Welsh MPs from speaking in English debates. The essence of the reform is that we do not to exclude Welsh or Scottish MPs from speaking in debates on English matters. Of course, the same does not apply the other way around. The Welsh Grand Committee will have a lesser role in the future because we are in the process of devolving substantial additional powers to Cardiff, but I will look at what is happening with the Committee and write to him.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend has made an important point. As I said earlier, by the end of tomorrow we shall have considered these matters for 20 hours since Monday last week, so I do not think that anyone viewing the House from outside could say that they have not been raised and discussed. The Prime Minister himself has taken questions for four and half hours during that period, and that is in addition to the contribution that he will make tomorrow. I think that Members have had plenty of opportunities to scrutinise the challenge that we face.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House rose at 12.35 pm today. As we heard from the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker), the editor of PoliticsHome, having been briefed, issued the motion on Twitter at 12.33 pm. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the process—and I am still to make up my mind—does that not show that the House has not been given a full opportunity to consider this matter in detail, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) should have had sight of the motion before he came to the House?

[Chris Grayling]

I do not accept that. I made a point of ensuring that no public statement was made by the Government, and no provision of the motion was made to the media, before the motion was tabled in the House, and I think that that was the right and proper thing to do.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 29th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Let me tell the hon. Lady about an industrial policy. An industrial policy which leads to a dramatic drop in UK steel output and a near-halving of the proportion of our economy that is taken up by manufacturing is the industrial policy we had under the last Labour Government. Under this Government we have been working to restore manufacturing and research and development, and steel production is at the same level or slightly higher than when we took office. Labour is the Opposition so its Members can of course ask questions without remembering their own record in government, but just on occasion they should look in the mirror and say, “What did we do in government?”, because actually when it comes to manufacturing in this country they made a right royal mess up.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Concern about the illegal wildlife trade is growing and the Duke of Cambridge spoke out about this issue only last week. Responsibility in the Government lies within three Departments: the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Home Office and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. May we have an early debate to look at how we can better co-ordinate a UK Government response to end this vile trade?

[Chris Grayling]

I wholeheartedly agree. To see the return of elephant poaching in southern Africa is something I find deeply distressing, and the threat now facing the rhino is profoundly distressing. I commend Prince Harry and Prince William for the work they have done in this area over the years, and I commend everyone in this House who works to highlight this very real challenge. I want future generations in this country to be able to enjoy these great creatures, to see them in the wild, and not to have to look back in history books for the times they walked the earth.

I will make sure the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns are drawn to the attention of the Secretary of State. Perhaps he would like to raise this issue at DEFRA questions next Thursday, because that Department has the biggest role in this. It is important we do everything we can to stem what is a vile trade.

Commons Financial Privilege

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I have no doubt that my hon. Friend and his Committee will look closely at those issues. I am not in the least bit surprised to learn that they have made a start. Most Members of the House realise that this week has marked a significant change or potential change in the relationship between the two Houses. We need to establish a firm foundation for the future. My hon. Friend and his Committee will play an active role in that. When change is necessary, I want to bring it forward as quickly and sensibly as possible, but we need to take the time to get it right and ensure that we deal with the issues for the foreseeable future.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House ensure that the review includes whether the House of Lords has the right to vote down measures introduced by a Government who said that they would not take such measures? Secondly, will the members of the review panel be paid a daily rate? If so, will it be higher than the minimum wage?

[Chris Grayling]

As I have said, we will bring forward full details of the review panel and the terms of reference in due course. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that nobody can be in any doubt that the Government won a general election in May saying that we would have to take tough decisions and cut welfare. That is what we are doing.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I did say that I would give way in a moment but just wanted to set out some remarks first; that was all.

This has been one of the frustrations of the debate on this issue. Anyone who reads these proposals will know full well that they do not exclude any Member of Parliament from any vote in this Chamber in which they can currently take part. It is simply not the case. Yet I keep hearing about MPs being excluded. That will simply not happen. I hope we will not hear that error repeated in today’s debate.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way on that point. Will he explain why, for example, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who has fought four elections in north-east Wales and lost every one—he has never won an election—but sits in another place, will have rights over my constituents in moving motions on an amendment, whereas I—I have won six elections to this place—will not have the same rights?

[Chris Grayling]

The answer to that question is that in 1997, in the wake of the general election, the right hon. Gentleman’s party passed a devolution package meaning that, on issues such as health and education, he had no right to vote on issues affecting his constituents, but that people sitting in the Assembly did. Members of the House of Lords can vote on English matters, but it is of course for the Assembly in Cardiff to vote on matters affecting his constituents in areas such as health, education and transport.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and that is why we have chosen not to go down the path of an English Parliament. As we devolve more powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—we committed to that in our manifesto and we believe it is the right thing to do—we seek to ensure that the English also have a role in that devolution, but not in a way that removes any Member from any part of the current debating process in this Chamber.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) for probably the first time in my life, so that is a good thing. Will the Leader of the House ensure that in any review he undertakes, the position of border constituencies such as mine in Wales, and those in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, are reflected carefully so that Mr Speaker’s tight discretion on determining what is an English-only Bill is reviewed in the light of pressures on my constituents?

[Chris Grayling]

The review and the work we do in the next 12 months should take into account all concerns raised by Members. I give the right hon. Gentleman a commitment that we will of course listen to views from across the House on this and other matters.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That may be a current issue for one or two of them, having moved down from Scotland to be here, but my hon. Friend makes an important point. We do have an odd imbalance, yet no one on the SNP Benches has been able to explain to me—nor have those on the Labour Benches now lining themselves up against these proposals—why it is right and proper to continue with a situation in which an MP from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland can vote on education in my constituency but not in their own constituency. That seems to me to be a flaw.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

rose—

[Chris Grayling]

I shall give way for the last time and then wind up.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful. One person he has not mentioned in detail so far is the Speaker of the House of Commons. There will be moments when controversial issues arise in relation to the certification of an England-only Bill and the parties are in dispute. What consultation has the right hon. Gentleman undertaken with the Speaker and the Deputy Speakers on this matter?

[Chris Grayling]

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether it is appropriate to discuss in this House conversations that have been held with the Chair. Suffice it to say that consultations and discussions have taken place, as the right hon. Gentleman would expect. I have every faith in the Speaker’s ability.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 14th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is appropriate that the hon. Gentleman, on behalf of his constituents, can take decisions on matters affecting them. He and his party have just diametrically opposed that.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House tabled the hunting vote to take place tomorrow before the final decision on English votes for English laws. Will he give a commitment that in future the hunting vote will come before a resolution on EVEL?

[Chris Grayling]

I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman reads our proposals more carefully, which he clearly has not done. If he does, he will realise that there is no connection between the two.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

One of the things I did upon our return to this place after the election and my assumption of my current responsibilities was to discuss with the—then previous, and now current—Chair of the Procedure Committee how to handle these matters. I have agreed with him that his Committee will play a very active part in considering the impact of these changes over the next few months, and its views will be central to how we approach the review in 12 months’ time.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

3. What consultation he plans to undertake on the Government proposal for English votes on English laws.

English Votes on English Laws

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I do not think that with the SNP there is any danger of Scotland’s voice not being heard. I simply remind SNP MPs that we are passing to Scotland more power for the Scottish Parliament than it has ever had before, as we promised the Scottish people. That is right and proper.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House ponder for a moment on the fact that had his proposals been in place over the past hundred years, Alec Douglas-Home, Andrew Bonar Law, James Callaghan, Lloyd George and Gordon Brown would not have been able to vote on their own Governments’ proposals in this House of Commons? Does that not strike him as incongruous, coming as it does from a Conservative and Unionist party?

[Chris Grayling]

That is simply not true. They would have been able to vote. As I said earlier, every Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MP will continue to vote in the same Divisions except on the very small number of Bills for which there is an English-only Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

The ministerial code is clear: when Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance to Parliament. I have reminded my Cabinet colleagues of that.

[Mr Hanson]

On 21 May, the Prime Minister, in a speech to journalists outside this House, gave details of every aspect of the proposed immigration Bill, a full week before that Bill was announced in the Gracious Speech last Wednesday. Whatever the view of the Leader of the House on that, is it not better that Members of Parliament are the first to hear a new policy, so that they can either praise it or ask questions about it in this House?

[Chris Grayling]

With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, the House was not sitting at that point, and during the past couple of months political leaders of all parties have made detailed statements to the media about their plans for the next five years; fortunately, only one party is able to put its plans into effect. We will ensure that we continue to treat Parliament with the respect it deserves.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Mentoring is a crucial part of the future of our work to break the cycle of reoffending. I have absolutely no doubt that the ability of those who have been through the system themselves and turned their lives around, and who currently work within the voluntary sector, to play a role in changing the lives of those who are still in the criminal justice system is enormous. One thing that excites me is that, with the presence in the rehabilitation arena of a number of our leading charities working hand in hand with the Government and the private sector to deliver better rehabilitation, I am convinced we will see those mentoring skills brought to bear on the problem.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

We have heard a lot about conflict of interest this week. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether he believes it is a conflict of interest that a private sector company can be paid £35,000 per place to keep somebody in prison in one region, and that the same private sector contractor can be paid £1,500 to keep someone out of prison? Is that not a conflict of interest?

[Chris Grayling]

We get a lot of nonsense from Opposition Members. I want a joined-up process, in which we work with people in prison, help them to prepare for release, and work with them when they have left prison. No organisation that works for the public sector in this arena chooses who it gets in its prisons or rehabilitation arena. It is right and proper that that responsibility lies with the public sector. I think a joined-up approach is the right way forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Given all the questions that have been asked, I think it would be helpful for me to update the House properly on the progress of our rehabilitation reforms.

On 1 June we established new structures in the probation service for a period of shadow running and testing. Twenty-one community rehabilitation companies are now managing low and medium-risk offenders, initially in the public sector, prior to the award of contracts later in the year. The new national probation service has also been established, to advise the courts, manage high-risk offenders and take enforcement actions. Those functions will remain in the public sector. I am grateful to staff for their hard work as the changes bed in.

In parallel, we are making good progress with the competition for ownership of the community rehabilitation companies. Strong competition remains in all regions, with more than 80 bids received and an average of four bidders for each area. More than half the bidders include a voluntary, mutual or social enterprise organisation, and mutuals continue to feature strongly. All bidders have experience of working with offenders.

Nearly 1,000 organisations have registered as potential partners in the wider supply chain, including more than 700 listed as voluntary, community or social enterprise organisations. We remain on track to sign contracts with successful bidders by the end of the year.

[Mr Hanson]

There have been some strong reports recently from the chief inspector of prisons. For example, Glen Parva has been described as “unsafe”, Wormwood Scrubs as “filthy and unsafe”, and Doncaster as a “prison in decline”. I know from my experience as prisons Minister that it is never easy, but has the Secretary of State any belief in his ownership of the causes of those problems?

[Chris Grayling]

It is, of course, unfortunate that press coverage is always of the bad reports. Today we saw an excellent report from Chelmsford, and two weeks ago we saw an excellent report from Parc youth offender institution. This year the chief inspector has rightly been looking at prisons in which there have been challenges in the past, but, as the right hon. Gentleman will know if he visits prisons around the estate, a great deal of very good work is being done by our teams. They are undergoing a process of change caused by budget pressures, but they are doing a first-rate job. For every report that questions performance in one prison, there are many others that show that a first-rate job is being done—as he himself will remember.

The UK’s Justice and Home Affairs Opt-outs

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Thursday 10th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

They have indeed spent many hours, days and months, and I have spent many hours, days and months in Committee dealing with those matters, too. We did not oppose what the Home Secretary brought forward; we supported it. There was no difference between us and the Home Secretary on those matters. It could have made a difference—and, dare I say it, it could make a difference now—if the Home Secretary had brought forward several months ago the measures she has just brought forward now. She could have had an in-principle discussion—

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

We did.

[Mr Hanson]

The Justice Secretary says that they did, but he needs to reflect more on the record. The Home Secretary has tried to indicate that some of these matters might be up for discussion, but ultimately, as she knows, they are in the interests of crime fighting, the interests of victim prevention and the interests of ensuring that we bring criminals to justice.

Prison Overcrowding

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 16th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is what baffles me about the Opposition’s questions and challenges over this issue, because I am precisely not letting out people who should be in prison. I am simply taking sensible precautions to bring on additional capacity. I have to say that if prisoners have to share a cell, I do not regard it as a great problem. I think that the courts should be able to send people to prison if they want to, as does my hon. Friend.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

In early 2010, when the Prime Minister first took office, he promised to take an axe to the number of foreign national prisoners in prisons. The figure then was 11,135. Will the Secretary of State tell me what progress has been made, because by my calculations, the number has reduced by about 40 a year?

[Chris Grayling]

The figure is, of course, now coming down. It is lower than it was when we took office, and it is roughly proportionate to the number of people in the population who were not born in the UK. We have to bear in mind that one of the reasons why we have a high proportion of foreign national offenders in our jails is that when the Labour party was in government it had a reckless policy on the number of people allowed to migrate to this country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 6th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I give my hon. Friend that assurance. We shall continue to look at the impact of the changes we have put in place. It is not our intention to disadvantage the most vulnerable in our society. We have taken a number of steps in the reforms to protect them and we will continue to review the changes we have made to understand their impact.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Now that a Cameron appears to have woken up to the impact of legal aid cuts and refused to take part in a trial last week because of a lack of defence, will the Secretary of State review that case and that judgment and tell the House how many cases he expects to be stayed as a result of legal aid cuts? What conditions does he have in place to ensure that those whose cases are stayed have a proper trial?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am rather sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says and I suggest that he and I have a longer conversation about it.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

8. What his strategy is for supporting victims of crime.

Probation Service

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Well, I did the job.

Section 3 of the 2007 Act provides a clear and unambiguous power for the Secretary of State to

“make contractual or other arrangements with any other person for the making of the probation provision.”

On Second Reading, the then Home Secretary said:

“The Secretary of State, not the probation boards, will be responsible for ensuring service provision by entering into contracts with the public, private or voluntary sectors. With that burden lifted, the public sector can play to its strengths while others play to theirs.”—[Official Report, 11 December 2006; Vol. 454, c. 593.]

I could not have described our plans better. Furthermore, on Report, the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) said:

“Most services will be commissioned from lead providers at area level, which will sub-contract to a range of other providers.”—[Official Report, 28 February 2007; Vol. 457, c. 960.]

Again, that is very close to the plans before the House today. The shadow Justice Secretary must also know that in another place Baroness Scotland said that the Act

“places the statutory duty with the Secretary of State, who then commissions the majority of services through a lead provider”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 June 2007; Vol. 693, c. 639.]

We have two options. Either the Opposition are not being up front with the House about what they really intended to do in the 2007 Act, or they were so incompetent they did not know what they were doing. The House can choose which is most likely.

[Mr Hanson]

The golden thread through the 2007 Act was public sector management of all offenders—low and medium-level and serious offenders—supported by the commissioning of the type of services the Justice Secretary wants on health, mental health and alcohol and drug treatment from the voluntary and private sector, but the public sector has to be responsible for managing offenders.

[Chris Grayling]

I repeat, from the 2007 Act:

“The Secretary of State may make contractual or other arrangements with any other person for the making of the probation provision.”

That is clear, to my mind. It might not have been what Labour intended, but it is what the power does, and it is the legal basis we are using for pushing ahead with these reforms.

We will give providers the flexibility to do what works and free them from Whitehall bureaucracy, and the deal is that they get paid in full only for real reductions in reoffending, which is a good deal for victims and the taxpayer. Despite what the shadow Justice Secretary says about the Work programme, it has now helped many hundreds of thousands of the long-term unemployed. He talks about low-hanging fruit—these are people who had been unable to find a job through Jobcentre Plus in over a year.

The Opposition are missing one other important point. The shadow Justice Secretary talked about piloting, but the pilot programme delivering clear improvements in the level of reoffending that is closest to what I want to achieve around the country is in Peterborough. It is so far achieving very good results. It is impressive and I encourage Members in that area to visit. One cannot but feel that it is the right thing to do, but what the Opposition have not admitted is that it was started by Labour. I know it does not want to admit it now, but it started us on this path, and it is a sign of how absurd it has become that it wants to walk us off this path today.

On the point about public protection, the national public sector probation service we are establishing will, of course, be responsible for risk assessing all offenders supervised in the community and will retain the management of offenders who pose a high risk of serious harm to the public, who have committed the more serious offences and who require multi-agency supervision. That is right and proper. An hon. Member—I cannot remember which one—made a point about the working day. I would rather the supervision of highest-risk offenders was in the hands of dedicated experts—and it will continue to be—but having listened to people talk about inexperienced individuals and companies coming in, I think it is worth pointing out that after these reforms, it will be the same teams looking after low and medium-risk offenders as are looking after them now. Only over time will we see the work force evolve so that the expertise in the voluntary sector becomes part of the mix, with former offenders who have turned their lives around influencing young offenders and encouraging them not to do it again.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I share my hon. Friend’s belief in the need for change. It is my intention that the Conservative party should go into the next election with a clear plan for change, and it will. This is now a clear dividing line between us, because the shadow Secretary of State has only today reasserted his belief that the current human rights framework is right for this country. We disagree, and I look forward to fighting that battle over the next 18 months.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

When the Minister quotes the Offender Management Act 2007, will he do me the courtesy of looking at the Hansard for that period, when the Minister in question—that is, me—said that the vast majority of probation boards would stay in public ownership?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am not proposing that access to legal aid for the vulnerable be removed. Every person brought before a court or into a police station, and every person charged with an offence, will have access to legal aid for a defence unless they have sufficient means to pay for it themselves.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Given that a third of prison suicides take place in the first week, what risk assessment have the Government made of the changes to the regime in the first two weeks?

Transforming Rehabilitation

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with working with the private and voluntary sectors in the justice system; I did it when I was the Justice Minister. I have two questions to put to the Secretary of State, if I may. First, on resilience, how does he know that the organisations with these contracts, like G4S in the Olympics, will be able to deliver? Secondly, on accountability, things will go wrong in the justice system, cases will be disastrous and things will be serious. Who will ultimately be accountable to this House and to the public for the errors and mistakes?

[Chris Grayling]

The simple answer to the latter point is that responsibility will continue to lie with the public probation service and, ultimately, the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman and I know that in any system with a rate of reoffending there will be further crimes, whether a public, private or voluntary sector provider does the work. I want to ensure that the level of reoffending continues to go down and that we try every means at our disposal. The payment-by-results regime opens the way to innovation to ensure that we do the best possible job in ensuring that people do not reoffend.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work that she has done, not only in holding the seminar but in organising an extremely successful jobs fair to help her unemployed constituents to find work. I believe that, through the launch of the new enterprise allowance, we have created a mechanism that will allow unemployed women in particular, and also unemployed older workers, to move into self-employment. They have a wealth of experience to bring to it, and I hope that the allowance will create a bridge, supported by mentoring, to enable them to do so.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Training and benefit levels are inexorably linked by the Government. This morning the Prime Minister said that regional variations in benefit rates would affect areas such as mine in Wales, the north of England and Scotland much more than areas elsewhere. Will the Minister tell us whether he supports that, and whether it is supported by his hon. Friend the Pensions Minister?

[Chris Grayling]

I congratulate Opposition Front Benchers: this is one area in which they have made a major contribution to the debate. It was the Labour party that began the argument about the regionalisation of benefits. It was entirely sensible for the Prime Minister to take up that challenge, and we should have a proper national debate about whether this is the right approach for the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am always very disappointed to hear Members attacking major employers such as our supermarkets. A few months ago I met a man who had been long-term unemployed, who was given a job at one of our major supermarkets and who, within a few months, had graduated to running a department of 20. These are major employers with good opportunities, and we are about giving young people a start in life.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Youth unemployment in the north, the north-west and my area of north Wales is rising higher and is deeper and longer than in the south. Does the Minister have any assessment of the quality and number of work placements in the north versus those in the south of England?

[Chris Grayling]

I have talked to Jobcentre Plus about the availability of placements, and I am confident that, together with the changes that we announced last Friday, which will double the size of the work experience scheme, we will be able to offer every single young person who needs such a placement the opportunity to embark on one.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the anomalies of the European system which is causing concern not just in this country, but in other capitals around Europe. I have had many conversations in the last few months with fellow Employment Ministers in other EU countries, and there is a mounting debate about the need for rule changes that will set out exactly when and where benefits should and should not be paid.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

23. What steps his Department is taking to reduce the level of youth unemployment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

The issue of youth unemployment is one that the right hon. Gentleman would know, if he had listened to my earlier answer, is of great importance to this Government and the nation. We are taking urgent steps to seek to address it.

[Mr Hanson]

Despite excellent apprenticeship schemes such as the one at Airbus near my constituency, which employs about 100 apprentices a year, youth unemployment in Wales is, sadly, still higher than anywhere else in the UK as a whole. Given what the Minister said earlier about potential jobs being created, in the absence of a strong regional policy and with the scrapping of Labour’s job schemes, how can he guarantee that the jobs for young people will go to where the most young people are unemployed?

[Chris Grayling]

We need two things to solve the problem of youth unemployment. We need a strategy for growth, which was at the heart of the Budget put forward by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer a few weeks ago. We will continue to seek measures that will encourage business to grow, develop and create jobs in this country. Alongside that, we will continue to pursue measures, through work experience, the Work programme and other arrangements to support young people to make sure that they are as well equipped as possible to take advantage of those vacancies wherever in the United Kingdom they arise and wherever in the United Kingdom they live.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 14th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I have to say that I do not share my hon. Friend’s view. What I would say to employers up and down the country is that I hope they will take advantage of the increased numbers of apprenticeships that are paid at special apprenticeship rates in order to allow people to develop the skills they need to build future careers.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Minister assure the House that during internal Government discussions he will support the minimum wage that the Labour Government introduced and make sure that for each year over the next four years it rises by at least the level of inflation?

[Chris Grayling]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, Conservative Members have supported the national minimum wage for many years—and will continue to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Grayling

Monday 14th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

3. What steps he is taking to promote employment opportunities in Wales.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

Business and the economy are, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, devolved matters. However, Jobcentre Plus in Wales is notified of thousands of vacancies each month. Jobcentre Plus advisers ensure that jobseekers know of all sources of vacancies, and that is included in the review of jobseekers’ job search activity every two weeks. That focus on jobs will also be a key part of the support offered to people who are migrating from incapacity benefit to the employment and support allowance. Jobcentres in Wales also regularly hold jobs fairs to highlight employment and training opportunities.

[Mr Hanson]

Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how he thinks cutting £320 million from the future jobs fund will assist job creation in Wales, and will he give me a guarantee today that the almost 10,000 jobs that have been agreed under the future jobs fund, from Rhyl to Rhondda, will not be cut by his Government?

[Chris Grayling]

What the right hon. Gentleman needs to understand is that Wales and every other part of the United Kingdom need sustainable employment, and that is why we needed to stop the jobs tax that the last Government were planning to introduce. That is also why we need to provide incentives for small employers—those employing fewer than 10 people—to take on people by giving them a discount on their national insurance contributions. Those are measures that can and will make a difference.