Border Security: Collaboration

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Hamwee

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches we welcome the Statement, although I do wish that these Statements were not always headed as being about border security. It is about much more than security. In particular, we welcome the collaborative approach, which we see as essential to international issues.

The Statement mentions Syria. I appreciate that the Statement is not really about Syria but as it is in here, let me take the opportunity to ask—although I think I can anticipate the answer—whether the Government are yet seeing any impact either of Syrians in this country who are now wanting to go back to the Middle East or any new wave of asylum seekers coming from Syria.

The Statement refers to wider crimes. We know that organised crime covers a wide area and that these things are all related. It lists violence, exploitation, money laundering and drug trafficking. I am sure that the Government see that people trafficking and illegal working are all part of the picture—but I would be glad of the confirmation.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about higher penalties. It is the same with policing. It is catching people, rather than the penalties, which is the deterrent. Given his background, I would be surprised if he disagreed with that. The Statement also refers to legislation identified by the Germans as being needed to add to their measures. Have the UK Government identified any need for further legislation here? I hope not, because legislation is often referred to as being the solution when so often it is action that is needed.

Finally, I express one major reservation. Safe and legal routes are not mentioned. Were they part of the discussions between the international parties?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful for those contributions from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition and the Liberal Democrat Benches. I have set out to the House on numerous occasions the record of the previous Government, and I shall not take the House’s time today to repeat that record, except to say that, since 4 July, this Government have had to take significant steps, which I will now outline, to tackle the backlog of problems left by the previous Government’s small boats initiatives, the failure to tackle asylum processing effectively and the use of hotels, which has gone from zero in 2019 to 200 hotels in 2024. I will not go on the record too much because I have covered that area before and, if provoked, will undoubtedly do so again.

I hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, would have shown a little more enthusiasm and welcome for the steps that the Government outlined in this Statement. We have, for the very first time, secured agreement with Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands to take action on a number of key issues. Those key issues reflect what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said. For the first time ever, the Germans have agreed to look at their own domestic legislation to allow for criminal exchanges of a range of issues with the UK Government, because the UK is not a member of Schengen and current German legislation does not allow the Germans to do anything outside the Schengen area. They are now looking at that, and there is a commitment, I suspect, from all political parties, because Germany faces an almost certain election in February, to continue that process as a whole.

The joint action plan on irregular migration, which was concluded last week, includes international co-operation, intelligence sharing and the use of the Europol system, of which we are now no longer technically part because of the decisions on Brexit. Therefore, we have strengthened information sharing, strengthened co-operation and a strengthened commitment from the five key partners that face the channel, plus Germany, to tackle this issue. That is a good thing that will help lead to people smugglers thinking twice about smuggling individuals or facing the consequences accordingly. The clarification in German law will facilitate migrant smuggling to the UK and Germany becoming a criminal offence. That is in addition to the measures that we have taken using money saved from the appalling, wasteful, useless Rwanda scheme that the noble Lord supported. That scheme has now been scrapped; the £700 million has been put into areas such as £150 million towards a new border command, which legislation will establish on a legal footing in the new year. Those are real, manifest issues.

The noble Lord gives me one of his very pleasant, helpful, wry smiles. But he knows, deep down, that the record of his Government was one that he would not really hold up to scrutiny; and that the things we are doing are positive measures that will remove the criminal gangs and take action against them. There is a whole range of other things that we will look at in due course. He may smile at this again, but he needs to know that 1,000 more staff have gone into enforcement and returns because of the savings made on the Rwanda scheme, and therefore people who are here and have had their asylum claims refused, or who are here illegally, are now being returned. Enforcement returns are 19% up and voluntary returns are 14% up, and that is because we have shifted resources from the useless, wasteful Rwanda scheme, which did not return people or act as a deterrent, to a productive, forceful scheme that forces returns and is putting in place a border command. He used some of my lines back at me; we will be judged on how this scheme operates. Let us leave it at that, for the moment, for this noble House and for the noble Lord, because we will return to those matters in due course.

I just want to cover any other points that he made. There is a G7 plan, which includes Italy and other countries, that is looking at crossings from the Mediterranean. I think it will have an impact; he does not. Time will tell, and we will debate this continually in the future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, began with Syria. Everybody internationally, with the possible exception—or definite exception—of President Putin and the Assad regime itself, welcomes the fall of the Assad regime, but it has raised some complications. We do not yet know how the new regime is going to operate; we do not yet know whether Syrians in the United Kingdom will feel safe to return to Syria; we do not yet know whether people will flee from Syria and make legitimate asylum claims. That is all under consideration. I cannot give her any assurances yet. She knows that we have paused the asylum scheme on Syria for that reason. I hope that we will be able to give some further news on that in the new year when, I hope, things have settled a bit more in Syria.

The noble Baroness mentioned people trafficking; I say that, yes, that is a crime we wish to crack down on. I mentioned the Schengen agreement, which is the piece of legislation we got an agreement on with the German authorities today.

The noble Baroness mentioned safe and legal routes, which are extremely important. She may not have seen it in the Statement, but it is a key part of government policy to ensure that people who need asylum can make those claims. If they are legitimate in this country, they can be processed quickly; if they are processed quickly, we can make some determinations that mean that we do not have to rely on the 200 hotels that the previous Government put in place, costing us millions of pounds each day; and, if there are safe and legal routes and people are agreed, they can integrate into UK society as asylum seekers who have sought, claimed and got asylum. The downside of that also remains: if people do not have a right to live in the United Kingdom and their asylum claims fail, we have to find mechanisms to remove them.

I hope that, overall, the House can welcome this as a positive Statement. I look forward to reaching out with a hand of friendship to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, to say that I hope that we can have some co-operation on these matters. We potentially share the same objective; we have simply had different means of getting there.

Migration and Border Security

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Hamwee

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Viscount makes an extremely important point. The Government have put in place an £11 million fund to support humanitarian aid. The Foreign Secretary has met his Turkish and Emirati counterparts and the UN special envoy, and he will look at those issues in due course. With due respect to the noble Viscount and others, if we were talking this time last week we would not have expected to be where we are now. Things are moving very speedily, but the Government are cognisant of the fact that they need to help secure the stability of a new regime and, at the same time, examine the consequences of that regime change in a way that encourages peace in the region.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I will pursue the point about casework. Does the Minister agree that there is a balance between speed, accuracy and the application of all the humanitarian factors that one needs to keep in mind? Thinking about what it must be like to deal with the applications, I have only admiration for those who work on them. I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer this, but I wonder whether the Home Office is providing enough support for supervision, as well as general support for those faced with the applications.

I also want to mention asylum hotels, which the Minister mentioned. I hear an increasing call for support for people living in asylum hotels—more than just accommodation. Perhaps the Home Office can bear this in mind in its contracting of accommodation, because asylum seekers need more than just a roof over their head.

Finally, I will no doubt be showing my ignorance, but perhaps I could ask a question on the Statement. We are told that illegal working visits are up 34%. What are illegal working visits?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

First, on that point, legislation was passed in 2014 by the then Conservative Government, which the then Labour Opposition supported. I was the shadow Minister. It was to ensure that we crack down on illegal working in a range of establishments, for two reasons. First, individuals who are here illegally should not be exploited by unscrupulous employers. Secondly, in employing people illegally, those unscrupulous employers are undercutting the ability to pay decent wages and give decent conditions of service to people who work legally, while undercutting the costs of other businesses. Therefore, it is not appropriate. The Government are trying to up that, building on the legislation that was passed. I hope that I have noble Lords’ support in this. We are also looking at building on that legislation to ensure that we can take further steps accordingly.

The noble Baroness also mentions two aspects. One is asylum hotels. This is difficult, but it is the Government’s intention to end the use of asylum hotels at an early opportunity. We will be progressing that. At the moment, give or take one or two hotels, we are at the same number that the Government had in July, but we are aiming to reduce that significantly, because it is a cost to the taxpayer and, as the noble Baroness says, it is not conducive to the good health and well-being of those people who are in our care for that period of time. Again, that is a long-term objective. On her first point, we are trying to speed up the asylum system in an accurate way to ensure that asylum claims are assessed quickly. Then, where they are approved, individuals can have asylum, and, where they are not approved and people have no right of abode, they can be removed. At the moment, that system has no energy in it, to the extent that we want it to have. We are trying to put some energy into that system.

International Law Enforcement Alerts Platform

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Hamwee

Monday 2nd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend misinterprets me: I mean the years 2019 and 2020, when our exit from the European Union was completed—I was right in the first place.

In doing that, a gap was left. I give credit to the last Government for recognising that gap. They introduced I-LEAP, which has had 20 million searches and given 79,000 law enforcement users access to real-time data. Some 46 forces are now involved in that, and, with my support, the programme will move on to phase 2. What we need to do is look at a European-wide security agreement, which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will do as a matter of urgency.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has already answered the question that I planned to ask—and positively, which is encouraging. Instead, I will ask for his assurance that Border Security Command will have access to the new system—now and as it goes forward—given that smuggling and trafficking is rightly high on the Government’s agenda.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can give the noble Baroness the assurance that the Government are committed to undertaking that action. Phase 1 included 46 forces, in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. We are looking to expand that, so that we can have real-time data—and, in future, real-time assessments of mutual sharing—to attack the real issues that matter to the people we serve: people trafficking, drug smuggling and terrorism, and a whole range of other criminal activity. That is the most important thing, and I hope that there is cross-party support in this House for the actions that the Government will take.