Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 26th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes; changing that situation is something that the coalition has set out to achieve. I remind my hon. Friend that when we came to power, the last Government had pretty much left an open door for access to benefits. People were able to claim jobseeker’s allowance pretty much on arrival. There was a habitual residence test, but it was very weak. We strengthened it and stopped people claiming for more than three months. People will not be able to claim housing benefit and they must have a right of residence. If they do claim, they must show that they have a minimum earnings likelihood. Anything below that will not count as a job. We are tightening up the system after the mess that we were left by the last Government.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State really feel that it is sufficient for people to have to work in this country for only three months before they can claim out-of-work benefits?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will take that as a peculiar compliment. We inherited a system in which people did not have to work for any time to claim jobseeker’s allowance. Within the existing rules, we will not pay for the first three months. If people are unemployed, they will be paid for three months. After that, they will be asked to leave. That is a much tighter position than the one we inherited. I, of course, would like to take it further. As the Prime Minister set out clearly in a recent speech, he believes that there should be years of contributions before someone is eligible to claim benefits, be they tax credits or jobseeker’s allowance. When the Conservative party gets back into power, we will implement that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 8th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

12. What estimate he has made of his Department’s expenditure on in-work housing benefit for migrant workers from the European economic area who have arrived in the UK within the last (a) six, (b) 12 and (c) 24 months.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The Government inherited a system that did not record the nationality of benefit recipients—we are changing that—and as a result local authorities currently hold limited data on housing benefit. However, based on the latest figures we have been able to glean, we estimate that some 420,000 EU families have been claiming child benefit at a cost of £650 million; and 317,000 EU citizens are claiming tax credits at a cost of £2.2 billion.

[Mr Betts]

Many of my constituents express a real sense of grievance when people come to this country and claim benefits to which they have not contributed. It is now the policy of the Government—and, indeed, of the Opposition—that before people can claim unemployment-related benefits, they should have to work in this country for a longer period. Should a similar principle apply to the claiming of housing benefit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

In a sense, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We have already introduced restrictions, right now, on access to benefits, tightening up the time scales so that people cannot get them for the first three months until they prove they are, in fact, resident here, and then only for three months after that. We have also stopped such people claiming housing benefit, but the hon. Gentleman will know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has announced that we will want to go much further and ensure that people cannot claim benefits for four years until they can prove to have been resident here.

Universal Credit

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Thursday 5th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right about that. I remind the House that under the previous Government, in the six years preceding the election, tax credits cost £180 billion-plus because of the shambles and the mess they were in. They lost huge sums through tax fraud and evasion, and we are putting that right. Our welfare reforms, including universal credit—all opposed by the Opposition—will change it, and they are already having an effect. Not one of our reforms has been supported by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who has carped and voted against every single one.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

One of the most damning criticisms in the National Audit Office report relates to the lack of a proper fraud detection system as part of universal credit. When Lord Freud, the Minister with responsibility for welfare reform, came before the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government earlier this year, he said that a new fraud detection system would be put in place. Why did the Secretary of State allow this programme to run for so long without an adequate fraud detection system being part of it?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the preparedness of the universal credit IT delivery system.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The IT system to support the pathfinder roll-out from April 2013 is up and running. As Members would expect, we continue to monitor, test and learn. That system is a crucial aspect of our pathfinder approach—although not all of it, by any means—which will guarantee the careful and deliberate wider roll-out of universal credit.

[Mr Betts]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but will he confirm that three of the pathfinders are not going ahead precisely because the computer system is not ready? Will he also confirm that in the one pathfinder that is going ahead, the staff have one computer screen on which to record information, and the rest of the claimant information has be written down by pen on a notepad? That is the situation, is it not? How can the Secretary of State possibly come to this House and justify that as being satisfactory, after years of preparation?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is fundamentally wrong. All the pathfinders are going ahead. The IT system is but a part of that, and goes ahead in one of the pathfinders. The other three are already testing all the other aspects of universal credit and in July will, essentially, themselves roll out the remainder of the pathfinder, and more than 7,000 people will be engaged in it. All that nonsense the hon. Gentleman has just said is completely untrue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I welcome the recent introduction of mandation to universal jobmatch, which means that Jobcentre Plus advisers can mandate jobseekers to use the new service to help them find work and require them to demonstrate their progress. More than 2 million jobseekers are now registered, which is twice the number when I last updated the House. That shows just how quickly the system is revolutionising how jobseekers look for work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The process we are engaged in—by the way, I have fully briefed the Opposition Front-Bench team, so there are no secrets here—involves a pathfinder starting in April, and by the beginning of October we will start the national roll-out. The whole idea is to roll it out progressively throughout the UK, making sure that we learn the lessons as we roll it out. Whatever changes need to be made can be made at that point. It seems to me that that is the reasonable and right way to do these things, but I remind my hon. Friend that we are not only below budget, but on time—and it will be completed on time.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

No doubt the Secretary of State will confirm that, following the introduction of universal credit, when people’s incomes change they will have to go to the local council to sort out their council tax benefit changes, and to the DWP to sort out their housing benefit changes. Two visits, or two contacts, will be required as a result of one change of income. What progress is the Department making in discussing with councils the need to provide a joined-up service so that, in future, people will need make only one contact when their incomes change?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that issue. We are currently engaging in discussions with local authorities with the aim of ensuring that people receive a proper and comprehensive service, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is exactly what they will receive as and when the time comes to roll out universal credit. The point of universal credit is that all the other benefits, including housing benefit, will be combined in a single payment, which will simplify matters enormously for claimants and recipients; and councils will, through council tax benefit, have the opportunity to provide the best possible service for their tenants.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will indeed. We are doing our level best; we are giving credit unions extra money and backing them enormously to get going. I think that they will develop hugely, and I hope that they will eventually replace the payday lenders—it is really important that we all agree about that. On the jamjar accounts and the way we are making these payments, everyone warned us that there would be problems if we paid housing benefit direct. We have trialled that in one of the demonstration projects and, importantly, only 3% of those who receive their housing benefit payments direct are having to revert to indirect payments because they have been unable to cope. That is a major advance from the existing local housing allowance.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I welcome the announcement made in the autumn statement last week that housing support for those living in supported exempt accommodation will be disregarded from the benefit cap. We have listened to the concerns of organisations including Refuge, Women’s Aid, the National Housing Federation and others. That announcement addresses their concerns, meaning that individuals in very vulnerable circumstances, including those fleeing domestic violence, will be protected.

[Mr Betts]

The Secretary of State will be aware of the direct payments pilot schemes, which are taking place before universal credit, before the bedroom tax and before the changes to council tax benefit. Is he aware that the pilots are showing an increase in rent arrears due to an increase in partial payments? If that remains the case at the end of the pilots, is he prepared to change policy to make it easier for rent payments to be made direct to the landlord?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The figure I gave in my response to the last of the questions showed that, in actual fact, the pilots are beginning to show categorically that if there is proper management by local authorities, the number of people defaulting is very low. That we can deal with. [Interruption.] Instead of playing games, paying this direct and treating housing benefit tenants as children, does he not think that part of the reason why they crash out of work early is that they cannot cope with the extra responsibility? By getting them ready for that responsibility before they go to work we are doing them a favour, and that figure shows we are supporting them.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. We believe, and our calculations show that one third of all properties are available and will be ready for those who have to move. I say “have to move” because that assumes a static marketplace, and this marketplace is not static. I will return to that point in a second.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way in a moment.

I want to deal with another point that is being trumpeted by Labour Members, and some others who have risen to the worst extent of some of the figures. Families with children over 10 who must share a bedroom are classed as homeless and that led to the strange suggestion during an exchange in the Select Committee that tens of thousands of people will be homeless. That definition of homelessness is not one that I recognise. In fact, I looked at the report of that Select Committee and I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) asked Roger Harding of Shelter whether he, my hon. Friend, having shared a bedroom as a child, had been homeless according to Shelter’s definition. Shelter’s response was yes, he had been. We are none of us served by this kind of nonsense. By all means let us have a rational debate about the reality of what we are trying to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

When the right hon. Gentleman is in a hole he should stop digging. The reality is that he was responsible for one of the lowest levels of building social housing. I do not know whether he is proud of that, but I would not be if I were sitting there with him.

We have to ensure that people who pay their way without recourse to benefits will no longer have to subsidise people who live in properties that the former could not afford. As I said, the maximum rate under the cap will be set at a level that is affordable and which some will consider generous. Based on what people spend on average on housing, the figure will be quite high; about £80,000 a year is what you would have to have.

[Mr Betts]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Forgive me, but I am going to make some progress, as I have given way a lot. I might give way again later.

Through the emergency Budget and spending review, we proposed a set of housing benefit reforms designed to bring back under control a system that has been out of control. I accept that the responsibility of Government is always to get the balance right as we protect, incentivise, and ensure fairness in the system. Critically, for housing, that means getting the rents down. Landlords have a responsibility, and I am prepared and determined to work with councils, with the Mayor of London and with any other mayor to help get those rents down. We are the biggest purchaser of rents and I believe we will have a real role to play there. As I have pointed out, private rents have, in any case, dropped in the past year—Opposition Members need to recognise that that involves an actual figure, not one that they can conjure up like the rest of their stuff.

Let me remind the House how distorted the private rental market is. As I said, between November 2008 and February 2010 private rents fell by 5% and local housing allowance rates rose by 3%. LHA has now run its unaffordable course and we must turn it around; it fuelled a landlords’ charter to raise rents and has made housing more expensive for the whole population. It has not done any favours for those on low or marginal incomes; it has done them a great disservice. There are parts of central London where people can live only if they are on housing benefit or they are very wealthy. One could argue that Labour has socially cleared parts of London of working people who are trying to earn a living. That is the effect of what Labour has been doing. One would think that as the country grappled with the storm of the recession, these rents would come down, but they did not.

I agree with the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South that we must manage this transition, and I am happy to talk to him about how that works. We have sought to do that because local authorities still have a statutory duty to house people, and we will work with them as well; with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, we are working with councils right now on the transition plan. Our figures show that 96% of claimants will face a shortfall of below £20 per week and the vast majority of those will see a shortfall of over that figure—I remind people that this relates to a steady state and does not even begin to recognise what happens when the rents start to fall. If they fall by any small percentage, that changes the picture dramatically.

Capital Gains Tax (Rates)

Debate between Clive Betts and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 28th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must say to the hon. Lady that that is a pretty poor intervention. The grant of over £500 for every child was far more than most poor, working families would ever achieve from any other source. As I told Labour Members earlier, we have to make tough choices. This is an area where people can share. Having had children myself, I know, as will many others in the House, that people share clothing and pushchairs. They do what they can to get by. There was a ludicrous idea that every child required the same amount of money, and I am afraid that in these difficult times we have had to take a difficult decision. I say to the hon. Lady that we are not going down the road she suggests.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the Institute for Fiscal Studies, in its report on the Budget, said that the new measures were largely regressive, and that was before housing benefit cuts were taken into account? A survey at the weekend by Tim Horton and Howard Reed said that if the housing benefit cuts and spending cuts were taken into account, the poorest 10% were likely to face a six times greater reduction in their spending power than the richest 10%. Does that make it a fair Budget, in the right hon. Gentleman’s opinion?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The IFS talked about it being debatable whether the Budget was regressive or progressive. I say honestly to Labour Members that if they do not like these measures and if they really want to be taken seriously, they need to tell me what they would have done. Had they won the election—heaven help us—they would have been on this side of the House justifying reductions in spending, not playing games on the other side. If the hon. Gentleman wants to say that this is unfair, he should tell us what would have been a fair way of getting that £45 billion reduction.

I am committed to ensuring that disabled people and carers receive the support that they deserve. I have therefore asked the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who has responsibility for disabled people, to undertake a strategic review, taking a principled look at the support provided for disabled people across the piece, to ensure that the effect of all the measures is appropriate and that they work.

Over the last decade, spending on disability living allowance—this is the issue—has spiralled out of control, and the system has been vulnerable to error, abuse and, in some cases, outright fraud. In just eight years the numbers claiming DLA have risen by around 700,000. In 2010-11, spending is on track to reach just over £12.1 billion, twice the level of the 1995-96 spending in real terms. That is a significant sum, and we need to make sure, for the taxpayer, that the money is paid to those who desperately need it. That is why we need a proper medical assessment. It is not about cutting support for people who live with serious disability or health problems; it is simply about making sure that we target support at those who need it, and the system remains fair and affordable.