Road Pricing

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 29th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important point about the cost of motoring. That really is top of mind for the Government. It is why we have frozen fuel duty since 2011 and had a 5p cut on fuel duty since March 2022. We recognise that for many people—particularly those in rural communities—using their car is essential, and it can be quite costly.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that, were the Government ever minded to introduce road pricing, rural communities and those who drive on rural roads—particularly in North Yorkshire, where we have the longest transit routes for people on their way to work or pleasure—would be protected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said at the outset, the Government have no plans to consider road pricing. Therefore, I cannot give my noble friend that assurance, because it would be purely hypothetical.

E-bikes

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No, those people who are riding those vehicles in those circumstances are breaking the law. All vehicles that are not e-bikes—they would be electric motorbikes—have to be registered with the DVLA, insured and taxed; the person would have to have a driving licence and to wear a helmet. Essentially, they would be the same as a traditional ICE motorbike and, yes, there is type approval of those vehicles.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend replied to a Written Question from me, saying:

“The Government is considering bringing forward legislation to introduce new offences concerning careless or dangerous cycling”,


particularly in the case of “irresponsible cycling behaviour”, including by e-cyclists. Will she support my Road Traffic Offences (Cycling) Bill, which would introduce the offences to which she refers in her Answer?

Trains: Wifi Provision for Passengers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can say only what the evidence is from asking passengers. We have asked the train operating companies to look at the provision of wifi, to establish a business case which sets out the benefits to passengers—how much they need it, those who perhaps are unable to use a smartphone on 4G or 5G for example—and then to revert.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take this as a response to her survey? Those of us who purchase our tickets electronically require wifi to both board and travel on the train. How am I going to be permitted legally to travel if there is no wifi to demonstrate that I have purchased a ticket?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would hope that my noble friend would have got the ticket in the wallet on her phone because she would have needed it to go through the station anyway. Free wifi will remain available at stations and as I say, no decisions have been taken. We have asked the train operating companies to prepare business cases.

Bus Services

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 30th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the importance to rural bus services of concessionary bus fares. What will the future of these fares be after June?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are not planning any changes to the levels of concessionary bus fares, but we are looking closely at the implementation of the concessionary fares scheme. Over the course of 2023 we will look closely at the reimbursement guidance and the calculator to make sure that bus operators are getting the correct amount of money for the people they carry.

Avanti West Coast

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of some of the challenges of travelling down the west coast from Scotland. Many of them are due to infrastructure changes happening in the north of England. Sometimes it is tempting to compare the west coast with the east coast. One other element of the east coast that is worth thinking about is that it has competition. There are open-access operators on the east coast as well. That is a contributing factor to making the services better all round.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the severe delays and disruption caused by TransPennine Express, which seems to be competing very well with Avanti on its record. Will she update the House on the Government’s plans for a possible renewal of such a hopeless operator? Will it be allowed more time, or will it be put out to tender for other franchise operators?

Bus Industry Support

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We can congratulate them; they do a fantastic job. Noble Lords will have seen that the Government announced £25 million of funding for zero-emission buses only recently—I believe that all the £25 million in funding went to Wrightbus in Northern Ireland, which has seen astonishing growth in jobs and skills and should be congratulated.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend explain what the future of concessionary bus fares will be? They are particularly important in rural areas.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We have seen a decline in the number of people using concessionary fares since the pandemic; certainly, those are the sorts of people who we want to get back on to buses. It is so important. We are reviewing a number of elements of the concessionary fare structure and, of particular importance to local transport authorities, we are looking at and will be consulting on the reimbursement guidance and calculator during the course of 2023 to ensure that local transport authorities are getting the money back from the system that they need to fully cover concessionary fares.

Rail Strikes: Impact Assessment

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well read, my Lord. I do not accept what the noble Lord just said. Indeed, I slightly object to him telling me what I know when it is followed by words that are not true. There is a good offer on the table from the Government, which is fair to workers and to taxpayers, and includes important workforce reforms. Without these things, we will not get the services we need and the fares we want. He says it will cause thousands of people to lose their jobs; there are guarantees of a job for anyone who wants one. The one thing that would take this forward would be for the RMT executive to ask its members whether they would like to accept the offer from the Rail Delivery Group and its members. It is refusing to do so. That would provide the clarity and transparency for everybody to understand what the membership of the RMT actually wants.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend update us on what will happen to the scheduled £6 million improvements to York station, which we understand cover both track and signalling? Will she give a guarantee that these will go ahead despite the strikes?

HS2: Wales

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is trying to get me to make commitments from the Dispatch Box which I am not able to make, unfortunately. However, I think it is worth understanding that the Crewe interchange as it is now planned was substantially revamped following significant concerns from stakeholders in north Wales and beyond. We have altered the Crewe northern connection so that it could allow for five to seven trains per hour to call at Crewe and then to be able to go down the high-speed line or, indeed, the conventional track.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend referred to the uncertainty over the northern part of HS2. Will she commit to rail improvements for the northern rail project to make sure that we have a new line to open up the railway between Teesside and Liverpool?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, the Government set out in the integrated rail plan tens of billions of pounds of investment across the north and the Midlands. We want to take that forward in line with the 2019 manifesto. She will also be aware that an Autumn Statement is coming up on 17 November, and I cannot say anything further at this time.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 14th July 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, or ATMUA. Taking the opportunity of our departure from the European Union, ATMUA created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement slot alleviation measures. We are now able to adapt our approach to best support the UK’s own specific circumstances.

We will all have seen the disruption that holidaymakers and other passengers have faced at some of the UK’s airports, particularly over the recent Easter and half-term breaks. There have been unacceptable queues, delays and short-notice cancellations of flights. The persistent impact of the Covid-19 pandemic has presented challenges for the aviation sector as it recovers, and there have been difficulties ramping up operations to meet the high levels of demand. Airlines, airports and the myriad other businesses that support aviation operations have struggled to recruit and train enough staff. Many other airports around the world are struggling with similar challenges. There have also been delays due to European air traffic control restrictions, strike action and airspace closures. This has resulted in short-notice cancellations of flights and considerable disruption for passengers.

The Government are doing everything in their power to support the aviation industry and ensure that passengers can fly with confidence over the summer. On 30 June, the Government set out a 22-point plan to support the aviation industry to avoid further disruption so that all travellers can get away over the summer period. One of the key elements of this package is the slot amnesty to which these regulations relate. It offers carriers more flexibility to plan and deliver reliable schedules and it introduced a two-week window, which closed on 9 July, during which airlines were able to offer back 30% of their remaining slots for the summer season. This is a one-off measure to allow airlines to plan a realistically deliverable schedule for the summer, and in particular to reduce the risk of short-notice cancellations and delays. Critical to this will be the sector itself ensuring that it develops robust schedules that it is confident it can deliver.

Ordinarily, airlines must operate slots 80% of the time to retain the right to the same slots the following year; this is known as the 80:20 rule. When the pandemic initially struck, the 80:20 rule was fully waived to avoid environmentally damaging and financially costly flights. Following the UK’s departure from the EU and the passage of ATMUA, we were able to introduce a more tailored alleviation of slot rules in response to the pandemic as the situation developed. For summer 2022, our focus is on encouraging recovery following the success of the vaccine rollout, the removal of travel restrictions and the generally positive demand outlook for aviation. After consultation with the industry and consideration of the evidence, we determined that a 70:30 ratio was an appropriate usage requirement for the summer period. This includes an extended justified non-use provision, which helps carriers when they are operating in markets that are still restricted due to the pandemic.

However, in light of the severe recent disruption at UK airports, caused by the persistent impact of Covid and a tight labour market, we consider that further alleviation measures are justified for the current season, which runs until 29 October. On 21 June, we therefore published this statutory instrument, which set out our plan to offer carriers the two-week window when they can hand back up to 30% of their remaining slots per airport for the current season. This is a critical measure to allow airlines and airports to take stock of what they can realistically deliver. This has been our message to the airlines and airports, and the entire aviation sector; they must be able to provide the certainty of a deliverable schedule. There is no point in continually announcing short-notice cancellations when they suddenly realise that they do not have the staff to fly a planned flight.

This proposal was developed following a short consultation with airports and airlines and there was strong support for it, with the great majority of both airlines and airports supporting it.

The draft instrument covers England, Scotland and Wales. Aerodromes in Northern Ireland are a devolved matter, but in any event, there are no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland, so the Northern Ireland Executive agreed that it was not necessary for the powers to extend there.

One other issue is worth highlighting. If an airline does hand back one of its slots, it can only be one that would be flown at least 14 days after it was handed back. This will mean that we do not end up with lots of short-notice cancellations within that fortnight. Orderly communications with consumers will be essential. We also expect airports to maintain their communications with consumers to advise them on what they need to do in order to ease their passage through the airport.

This is a simple statutory instrument that does just the one thing. I look forward to hearing comments from noble Lords and I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing forward the regulations before us, which I broadly support and welcome. I have a number of questions relating directly to the instrument and to the current situation. I understand that when a passenger buys an airline ticket, the simple measure of paying airport tax shows the airport and the airlines the number of people travelling on that particular day—so I am confused about why the numbers travelling seem to come as a complete surprise. I declare an interest: when I met and married my husband, he was an airline man and worked for a number of years with Delta Air Lines, Singapore Airlines and BOAC. As part of his responsibilities he was also director of Gatwick Handling.

Is one of the problems that airports and airlines are not themselves responsible for the ground handling operations, so that there is no joined-up operation from the moment that a passenger arrives at the airport and checks in their luggage? One word of advice, having married someone in the airline business, is to travel with hand luggage only so that, if you are offloaded, leaving the aircraft is a much simpler exercise. But I understand that for families and people going away for a long period that is not possible.

Do the Government have any plans to review the fact that ground handling operators are separate companies that are perhaps one step removed from the companies that passengers are paying for their services? I know that the airlines, airports and the Government are saying that they are doing all they possibly can to ensure a better experience than what we have been seeing since the May bank holidays earlier this year, but there still seem to be issues. How long does it take to train and give security clearance in particular to those working airside? I accept that we must take that extremely seriously, because that is where we are most vulnerable to a breach of security.

I welcome this amnesty. I offer a word of sympathy to the airlines and airports, which have probably been the hardest hit, alongside the hospitality and retail sectors. People were laid off. Willie Walsh said this week that, at the height of Covid, during the lockdown, only 2% of flights were operating. They had to grasp that situation and, given their ongoing overhead costs, save money as best they could, and obviously a lot of people who were in those positions have found work elsewhere.

Heathrow has asked for a moratorium on ticket sales for departures before 12 September. I pay tribute here to Simon Calder of the Independent, an expert in this field who does an enormous amount of work and is very helpful in advising passengers. He said that, after that announcement was made, when he tried to buy tickets—possibly yesterday—he found that a number of airlines were still selling tickets for before the magic date of 12 September. If that is the case, what comeback will there be? Those passengers may or may not read the newspapers and may or may not be aware of the issue. I have a further question on the impact of the amnesty. I want to establish whether, if an airline cedes a slot, it will recover the slot on the due date and there will be no economic loss to it.

I am one of the lucky passengers. I travelled during the May half-term. Although Ryanair may not be everyone’s favourite airline, I understand that it has the best figures for the fewest cancellations and the reliability and promptness of its flights. That week alone, it was estimated that between 2% and 4% of total flights were cancelled within a week of departure, compared with the normal rate of around 1%. Some 200,000 consumers were impacted by short-notice cancellations, as we are told in paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Note. It is not acceptable that 2.3 million passengers have been affected by delayed flights—approximately 43% of passengers arriving at or departing from UK airports. Given the importance of airports to the local economy in which they are based and to the national economy, that is obviously unacceptable.

Finally, paragraph 7.5 says that there will be 14 days’ notice when slots are ceded and that airlines are required to notify passengers of the cancellation of each flight at least 14 days before the date of the flight. Can my noble friend tell us what will happen if the airline fails to honour that commitment? It clearly is not happening. Anecdotally, a member of my family was caught up in this when they were actually in a taxi going to Heathrow airport. Having had a British Airways flight cancelled, she was then reallocated an EasyJet flight. When she was an hour from the airport, she was informed that that flight also was cancelled. So what redress will there be and what compensation will be given?

This is a deeply unfortunate situation in a major part of the economy, which is trying to do its level best to emerge as best it can from Covid times. I would like to think that one solution might be to consider ground handling operations being more hands-on with those closest to them. However, I hope my noble friend will give me the reassurance I am seeking for those passengers who have had less than 14 days’ notice, and, importantly, tell me how the airlines are required to inform passengers of a cancellation.

Airports: Delays

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I am sure the noble Lord will not be surprised to learn, the Government will not get involved in the pay and conditions discussions within the aviation sector, as it is a private industry.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my frustration that, on every passenger ticket that is purchased, an airport passenger tax is taken? The number of passengers who are travelling should not come as a bolt from the blue, either to the airports or the airlines. What action is the CAA taking in this regard?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure that I follow my noble friend’s question. We are taking all sorts of actions, as set out in the 22 measures that the Government announced today. That is from working with the ground handlers, where there is an issue with people getting their suitcases, to working with the airports to ensure they are able to cope with the number of flights arriving, and the airlines to ensure that their service is as good as possible and that they can meet their schedules, not cancel flights at short notice.

Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 25th April 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the regulations before the Committee today meet a commitment made by the Prime Minister in the 2020 policy statement Gear Change: A Bold Vision for Walking and Cycling to give local authorities outside London powers conferred in Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 to enforce contraventions of moving traffic restrictions. These powers are being commenced to coincide with these regulations, which are due to come into force on 31 May. The regulations before the Committee today form part of a package: an affirmative statutory instrument and a negative one. I shall refer to the former as the appeals regulations, and it is these are being considered by the Committee today.

The appeals regulations consolidate the rights of representation and appeal which have been in place England-wide since 2007 for vehicle owners who are or may be liable to pay penalty charge notices—PCNs—in respect of parking contraventions. They also extend those rights to disputed bus lane and moving traffic PCNs outside London. However, noble Lords should also note the negative procedure instrument: the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022. This instrument includes wider provisions for evidence, penalty charge notices, adjudication, penalty charge levels, and income and expenditure.

This regulatory package, introduced under Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, consolidates existing legislation. At the same time, it makes powers available to local authorities outside London to issue PCNs for contraventions of safety-critical moving traffic restrictions, such as no entry, banned turns and unlawful entry into box junctions. From now on, local authorities wanting to undertake moving traffic enforcement may apply for formal designation of these powers to enable enforcement to begin in practice by using CCTV cameras that have been certified by the Secretary of State. We plan to lay an order designating the first group of LAs as soon as practicable and will lay further orders as demand dictates.

When using these powers, local authorities have a duty to act fairly. These regulations therefore make provisions entitling drivers who are or may be liable to pay penalty charges for contravening certain traffic restrictions, including the moving traffic restrictions, to make representations to the enforcement authority and, if their case is rejected, to appeal to an independent adjudicator against the penalty charge. The regulations prescribe the information that must be given when a penalty charge is imposed about the right to make representations or appeal against that charge. The regulations also prescribe time limits for each stage of these processes, within which both the motorist and the local authority must respond, and create an offence of knowingly or recklessly making false representations under these regulations or in connection with an appeal.

I assure noble Lords that these regulations merely extend long-established provisions for motorists wishing to dispute parking penalties to the forthcoming civil enforcement regime for moving traffic contraventions. To create parity across the board outside London, we have also used this opportunity to repeal the bus lane enforcement regime, in place since 2005 under the Transport Act 2000, to create a single enforcement regime under the 2004 Act; that includes bus lane enforcement. It was always envisaged that this would happen soon after the 2004 Act was introduced.

By doing so, we have removed some of the inconsistencies in the legislation. Motorists challenging bus lane penalties will therefore benefit from representations and appeals provisions not previously available to them. These will apply to all contraventions. For example, they can challenge a penalty charge on the grounds of “procedural impropriety”. There will also be an express duty on local authorities to consider any “compelling reasons” that the motorist gives for the cancellation of the charge; express powers for adjudicators to refer cases back to the local authority where there are no grounds to allow the appeal but the adjudicator considers that the authority should reconsider whether the appellant should pay all or some of the penalty; and a requirement for the authority to respond to representations within 56 calendar days.

Bringing bus lane powers under the 2004 Act also has an allied benefit, in that it enables Ministers to publish for local authorities, for the first time, statutory guidance to cover all contraventions to which local authorities must have regard. This will simplify the system for the local authority so that it does not have lots of different types of enforcement considerations when it plans how to operationalise them.

However, I am clear that civil enforcement of moving traffic contraventions—or, indeed, of any traffic contraventions —should be a last resort. If contraventions are preventable through other means, such as improvements to road layout or traffic signing, I expect this to be done before enforcement is considered. We will issue statutory guidance to ensure that local authorities use these powers correctly.

Before enforcement can begin in practice, local authorities must apply to the department for an order by means of a letter to the Secretary of State. To ensure due diligence, designation of a local authority will be conditional on them having already consulted local residents and businesses on where existing restrictions have been earmarked for enforcement, and due consideration must have been given to any legitimate concerns.

Local authorities will also be expected to issue warning notices for first-time moving traffic contraventions at each camera location for six months following enforcement going live. This will apply to any new camera location in the future. These requirements will be enshrined in the statutory guidance to ensure that enforcement is targeted only at problem sites, that road users clearly understand the new powers and that enforcement is carried out fairly.

I stress that traffic enforcement must be aimed at increasing compliance and not raising revenue. Local authorities will not have a free hand in how any resulting surplus is used, which will be strictly ring-fenced for covering enforcement costs or specified local authority funded local transport schemes or environmental measures. Neither will local authorities have a free hand in setting penalty charge levels for moving traffic contraventions, as these are banded and set out in the regulations in line with existing penalties for higher-level parking contraventions. As moving traffic and bus lane contraventions are of a type, we are increasing bus lane penalties by £10 to align with contraventions of moving traffic and higher-level parking contraventions —for example, parking in a disabled bay.

These regulations support the enforcement of moving traffic contraventions and play a key role in reducing congestion, with consequent benefits to air quality and to well-being. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I have just two brief points to make. I thank and congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward the regulations this afternoon. First, I understand that there was a delay and that the statutory instruments had to be withdrawn and re-laid. I would very much like to understand why that was the case and have an assurance that that will not happen with future SIs.

My second concern relates to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s 29th report, dated 10 February 2022. At paragraph 40 it says:

“To free up police officers’ time, these Regulations extend the range of offences that can be dealt with by civil enforcement officers acting on behalf of local authorities, or in some cases traffic cameras.”


I would like to understand from which budget the civil enforcement officers will be taking on this work. I am mindful of the extent to which local authorities’ budgets are under severe pressure at this time.

Who will be responsible for the traffic cameras? In north Yorkshire and County Durham we have very few fixed cameras; the traffic cameras are mostly mobile. When I was an MP in north Yorkshire, I was informed, on the quiet, that in many instances there is no film in static cameras in north Yorkshire—they are just there to alarm people, in the hope that their behaviour will be reformed because they see a traffic camera in front of them. Are we relying on mobile traffic cameras, which are still the province of the police, or are there some other traffic cameras of which I am not aware?

With those few remarks, I wish the SI good speed.

Highway Code (Rule 149)

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh for enabling the opportunity to discuss this important issue and broader issues around road safety and micromobility, including e-scooters—to which I will probably come back in a letter, as I suspect that it is slightly beyond the scope of what we are discussing this evening. A lot of very important issues were raised, and I want to ensure that I cover them in detail.

Road safety is a key priority for the Government. We are constantly reviewing laws and deliberating over policies that can make our roads safer, and also feel safer, for all road users. The recent changes to rule 149 of the Highway Code fall firmly in the former category of constantly reviewing our laws. The changes to the Highway Code arise from a change in the law when the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2022 came into force on 25 March this year. The regulations broaden the offence of using a hand-held mobile phone while driving, so that it now captures drivers who use their phones for stand-alone or offline functions, as well as the interactive communication functions that had previously formed the parameters of the offence. Once the law had changed, it followed that users of public highways should know about it. Therefore, rule 149 of the Highway Code was duly amended to reflect the change.

This change will make it much easier for the police to enforce the offence. No longer will the police have to prove what the driver was doing on their phone; they will simply have to be satisfied that a driver was indeed using their phone while driving to impose the appropriate sanction. This should act as a substantial deterrent to those who might be tempted to pick up their phone and risk not only their own life but the lives of other road users. As my noble friend Lady McIntosh has confirmed, nothing in the Motion we are debating today implies a criticism of or opposition to the changes in those regulations as reflected in rule 149, but rather a concern about the timing of the update to the Highway Code to reflect that change in law, and how this law deals with users of other modes when they use hand-held mobile phones.

I turn first to the nature and timing of the changes to the Highway Code. The Highway Code needs to keep pace with change and should be updated as necessary for two reasons: first, to reflect changes in the law—as is the case in the update to rule 149—as and when they happen, but clearly not before because the law must have already changed; and, secondly, to reflect changes in how our roads are used. An example of this was the recent change to the hierarchy of use to ensure that vulnerable road users are protected from those who have the capacity to cause more harm. It is not always possible to align these alterations exactly, due to the statutory process that we are required to follow to update the Highway Code as set out in the Road Traffic Act 1988. As noble Lords will know, changes to the Highway Code are laid before your Lordships’ House, and indeed are laid in Parliament for 40 days, before they actually come into law. There is always a process which must be gone through.

Furthermore, sometimes a consultation may precede a change in law or a change to the Highway Code, and consultation feedback needs to be thoroughly analysed. This can further lead to uncertainties as changes are resolved through the correct and proper process post consultation and on publication of the consultation response. Sometimes the public may be under the impression, through media coverage, that something is already in place when actually it is just the noise about the consultation that has alerted road users to what might be happening.

Given how technologies are changing and revolutionising the way people think about how they travel and the sorts of devices they use—including new micromobility devices—we anticipate that there will be further changes to the Highway Code that are not yet in the formal pipeline but are certainly being considered by the department. One such example would be how we will change the code to reflect automated vehicles. We have already consulted on this, and we are considering at the moment exactly how that change will be reflected in the code. It is sometimes not a quick process, because we absolutely have to get it right.

Where it is possible and would not hold up progress unnecessarily, we would endeavour to align changes. But, of course, we had changes in January to the hierarchy of road users, and then changes two months later—it was not two weeks, because we had to lay the changes and then they had to be approved by Parliament—which could come into force only if the law had been changed. However, the law had not been changed by your Lordships’ House or the other place; we were dependent upon that law change. Had the law not been changed, obviously we could not have changed the Highway Code. So, we will continue to change the Highway Code as and when we see fit.

I say again that we will try to combine changes if it is appropriate and there is no risk that it would hold up a change because, for whatever reason, another change does not proceed as appropriate. But I feel that a succession of changes demonstrates how seriously we take road safety in the department and the breadth of work that we are undertaking to ensure that all road users are as safe as they can be, particularly given the changes resulting from a change in usage around the e-scooter trials and cycling, but also to reflect that we are more cognisant nowadays of the vulnerabilities of certain road users.

Adopting this so-called piecemeal approach also has a secondary benefit. As the Minister responsible for this, I feel that sometimes it is quite difficult to communicate these changes. We spend a lot of time and quite a lot of money thinking about how we will communicate changes which pertain to a specific area. If we are making changes to a specific area—such as mobile phones, or motorways and high-speed roads, as we did last year—it is much better and easier to tell the travelling public how we have changed the code and what it means for them. I feel that there is a secondary benefit to focusing on one type of change at a time, because it gives us this ability to hone that message, rather than having a more general message—which, I am afraid, the media would probably not be interested in—of “Check the Highway Code: it has changed”. So, I think that this approach has a lot of benefits.

Of course, we always think about how we communicate, and communication is never a one-off: when we change the Highway Code, it does not mean that we stop communicating a few weeks later because we think that everybody knows about it. That never happens. We always think about where our most vulnerable people need to be advised on elements of road safety. We will do this ad infinitum, and always do.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh expresses regret that the Government have not taken the opportunity afforded by the recent law change to extend the dedicated offence of using hand-held mobile phones to cyclists and e-bike riders. Cyclists and e-bike riders tend to be covered by other laws. The laws that we have changed most recently are under the Road Traffic Act, which tends to cover vehicles. However, like all road users, cyclists and e-bike riders are required to comply with many road traffic laws in the interests both of their own safety and that of other road users, and we reflect that in the Highway Code. So, it is not a specific offence to cycle and use a mobile phone or headphones, but cyclists and e-bike riders can be prosecuted by the police for careless and dangerous cycling, with maximum fines of £1,000 and £2,500 respectively.

So, cyclists must concentrate on what they are doing. I am always appalled when noble Lords stand up in your Lordships’ House and tell me about things that have happened to them on the road, and I am always rather embarrassed that I have not been able to stop it—but I do not stop trying. It is really important that we do not demonise all cyclists. There are some bad apples out there, and we need to make sure that they are held to account. Indeed, my noble friend Lady McIntosh raised the tragic incident which happened to Mrs Briggs. I know that this is an area of concern to her, and we too want to ensure that we crack down on reckless cyclists. We launched a review exploring the case for a specific dangerous cycling offence, and we are looking at what we will do next and will publish our response shortly. Just to put the record straight on e-scooters, it is the case that an e-scooter user falls under the regulations, and it is an offence to use a hand-held mobile phone on an e-scooter. They can be fined, and they could also get six penalty points.

I said that I will write on broader issues around e-scooters, because a lot has been raised. I will also write regarding my noble friend Lord McColl’s point about one-way streets.

On the point about guidance, there were two different types of guidance. We felt there was some confusion with the general guidance to the public, with people saying, “Can I still use my mobile phone if it’s in a cradle?” That was the confusion we wanted to try to mitigate, but we expect police forces and other enforcement agencies to update their own guidance. They do not need us to do it for them, quite frankly; they are very capable.

I reiterate that we do not feel that our approach to the Highway Code has been incorrect. In the circumstances we were presented with, it was important to choose specific topics and put them into the Highway Code when they were ready, or when either the law had changed or the consultation had reached its natural conclusion. We will continue to do so, but of course we will combine changes if it makes sense to do so. The next big change probably will be automated vehicles. I can also update noble Lords: a new hard copy of the Highway Code is available for purchase for £4.99 at all good shops and online retailers. It was published on Monday 4 April. I imagine there will be a subsequent amendment later this year, particularly if we get automated vehicles through, but again we cannot take anything for granted so we would not want to wait until then to make any further changes.

For the time being, I thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate and my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I will certainly write.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for her responses and to everybody who has spoken. We have had a passionate cyclist and a number, myself included, who feel more vulnerable to cyclists, e-scooters and other road users.

I was taken by the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, about how cycling injuries had gone down. One of the reasons for that—and I do not know whether it was through the Highway Code—was that, because of Covid, thankfully cyclists were not allowed to cycle in clumps on country roads. I think that has prevented a lot of accidents.

I look forward to seeing how automated vehicles will respond to reckless and furious cyclists, e-bicyclists and e-scooters, but we live to fight another day.

I am very grateful for all the contributions. I am sure my noble friend is aware that we take great interest in every change to the Highway Code. I thank the Government for this one. I regret once again that it does not extend to vehicles other than motorised vehicles, but I do not intend to press this Motion to a vote. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that there is outrage across the House at these developments? The shock wave is such that no one quite understands what the implications are for other companies if they seek to do the same. Can my noble friend explain what the position is under the retained EU law that we have spent hours, days and weeks on since we left the European Union? I understand that means if a company wishes to act in this way, there has to be a statutory period of consultation. Why does that not apply in this case? Is it deemed to be an international route now because we are a third country? The difference in 2020 was that we were part of the European Union. Is that a clear understanding of the situation?

The only other point I would like to raise is: what is the ability of Her Majesty’s Government now to requisition such ships as owned by P&O if we encounter a time of hostility? Are we still able to requisition its services as we were in the past when it was owned under a British flag?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will have to write to the noble Baroness about requisitioning. I believe that these vessels all fly under the flag of Cyprus and have done for some time. I am afraid that I am not an expert in requisitioning, but the law surrounding the employment of these seafarers is very complicated. There may be various jurisdictions under which they fall, but in previous times when redundancies have happened—and I mentioned earlier redundancies in 2020 and 2021—there was consultation and notification. So it is not right that this time P&O felt that it could get away scot free by not at least having the conversation. We recognise that sometimes negotiations do not work out and employers may have to make difficult decisions about making people redundant, but it must be worth at least having that conversation.

Bus Improvement Plans

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

How could I disagree with that? That is absolutely right, but there are lots of factors in terms of increasing frequency, and part of that involves local authorities putting in bus priority measures so that buses can make it through congested areas. The noble Lord mentioned the levelling up White Paper and the importance of buses in that regard. I have to agree. We did say that by 2030, local public transport connectivity across the country will be significantly closer to the standards of London. We mean that, and this is a good step along the way.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend update the House on the position of concessionary fares for buses, and will she join with me in saying how important they are to rural life, enabling people to go about their everyday activities such as shopping, visiting hospitals and attending doctors’ appointments?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend, and there is an awful lot that we will work together on with the local authorities, versus what they have in their BSIPs, to encourage those who do have concessionary passes to come back to bus, because we miss them terribly. Regarding concessionary payments, we published concessionary travel recovery guidance—late last year, I think, but definitely pre-omicron—that looked at how we are going to get concessionary fares matched up to passholders. At the moment, there is a discrepancy because we are paying concessionary amounts out in full. We are looking at that again to make sure it takes omicron into account, but I agree with my noble friend that concessionary passholders are welcome back to bus any day.

Highway Code

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to amend the Highway Code.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, following parliamentary approval, the Highway Code was revised on 29 January 2022 to include alterations to improve safety for cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders. Changes relating to the use of hand-held mobile phones in vehicles were laid before Parliament on 1 February. Further changes covering the use of self-driving vehicles are planned and will be laid before both Houses of Parliament later this year.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, would it not be a good idea to present all the changes to the Highway Code and consult on them in one go to prevent a piecemeal approach? Do I not have the expectation as a pedestrian to be able to walk safely along a pavement without the risk of being mown down by e-scooters? For what reason are e-scooters still excluded from the Highway Code? When do my noble friend and the department imagine that death and injury caused by cyclists and e-scooters will be put on the same basis as other motoring offences?

Draft Revision of the Highway Code

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 27th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend permit me to intervene? I think the concern is this. I was pinged with the press notice, for which I am very grateful, because I subscribe. I would just like to flag up these two sentences:

“Many of the rules in the code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you’re committing a criminal offence. If you do not follow the other rules in the code, it can be used in evidence in court proceedings to establish liability.”


We are changing the law here, not the guidance.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is exactly what I am trying to say. A “should” or “should not” that is in the code can be used. Going back to my noble friend Lord Attlee’s point about an HGV and a cyclist going around the corner and having an incident, whoever is at fault, the fact that they were going against the Highway Code would be a factor if it were ever to reach court. But this is not necessarily about the changes—

Railway Timetables: Disruption

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I just point the noble Baroness to the Williams-Shapps plan for rail. There is an enormous amount in there that will be beneficial to passengers in Yorkshire and beyond. We will be looking at ticketing, which is insanely complicated. Sometimes multi-leg ticketing is cheaper than a single leg and it is all slightly mad. Obviously, we will be very passenger-focused to make sure that the right services exist for people in Yorkshire and beyond.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that those drivers of trains on shunter routes are paid less than those on, for example, the east coast main line route and the west coast main line route? Is there any evidence of an exodus of these drivers to earn higher salaries as lorry drivers?

Global Traffic Scorecard: London

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 5th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Again, that is a hugely complicated question, which probably goes beyond what I can answer today. The noble Lord is right; in terms of congestion and changes to commuting behaviour, the system has to adapt. That is why, in London, we have a very good integrated system, which comes under TfL and the responsibility of the Mayor of London. It is up to him to look at all the different modes that he has available, whether it is the Tube, overground, cycling or walking—all those different ways—to ensure that we get the maximum economic benefit for London. Only this morning, I spoke to the CEO of London First, and we discussed that in detail.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords—

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have invested £4 billion in the east coast main line and are planning to invest a further £1.2 billion in issues such as capacity at Stevenage, the King’s Cross track remodelling and the Werrington grade separation works. These upgrades will deliver better journey times, reliability and capacity improvements.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I declare that I am a regular user of LNER and congratulate it on its reliability and punctuality, apart from during weather difficulties. My noble friend recently reported that some of the additional capacity will go to the south-west of England, yet passengers and LNER have suffered two years of disruption from Network Rail improvements into King’s Cross, with the promise of extra capacity between London and the north of England on the east coast main line route. Will she give her word that this additional capacity will be delivered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, throughout these timetable considerations, the Government need to balance the feedback we get from people and organisations with the journeys that passengers actually take; sometimes those two do not have a lot of connection. But my noble friend is quite right to note that the demand on LNER is coming back more strongly than in other cases. Of course we are taking that into account and, if needs be, we will make sure that the capacity improvements on the services she talks about are put in place.

HGV Drivers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I think I have tried to point out, the Government are extremely active in this area: 25 measures and counting in terms of making sure that we not only address the short-term issues but consider the medium and long-term solutions to this current shortage.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My noble friend may not be aware that I am the honorary president of the UK Warehousing Association. It is deeply concerned about the shortage of forklift truck drivers, which is impacting once again on the supply chain. What can my noble friend do to work with the industry to try to resolve the situation in the run-up to Christmas so that we can empty the warehouses and get the supply chain moving as best we can?

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con) [V]]

I am not entirely sure that the evidence supports the noble Lord’s last comment, but I accept that there are difficult trade-offs. Railway capacity is not expandable immediately, so one always has to work with the capacity available. We have spent £4 billion on upgrading the infrastructure and the rolling stock. We must make sure that we use that capacity to best effect. As I have already said, there would be a significant increase in revenues from these proposals.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

The LNER services southwards from Northallerton, my local station, and Darlington are being severely cut in the 2022 timetable. Darlington to Stockton was the first railway line in the country and very much serves the levelling-up programme. Effectively the Government own LNER, so please could they help to make sure that the effective service we currently have carries over to 2022?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con) [V]]

As my noble friend will know, there will be some service changes. She has outlined what they are, as have many other noble Lords. Other areas will see an increase in services. I reiterate that there is an opportunity to respond to the consultation. I know that my colleague in the department is pressing Network Rail, the train operating companies and our officials very hard to make sure we can retain as much regional connectivity as possible.

Lorry Drivers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 7th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and refer to my interests on the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government hold regular meetings with the road haulage industry regarding driver shortages and the impact on supply chains. On 16 June, I hosted an industry round table, alongside the Employment Minister. We are supporting HGV driver training through apprenticeships and training for jobseekers, and encouraging drivers who need to renew their driver’s certificate of professional competence to return to the sector.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I welcome the government action. Brexit and Covid combined have, in part, led to the crisis that we face, as well as the closure of test centres during the Covid pandemic last year, preventing training of new drivers. The industry is stepping up to the plate by agreeing to pay drivers more. Will the Government look very carefully at encouraging women drivers to take up lorry driving, and at adding HGV drivers to the UK skills shortage list, as well as trying to provide even more training, test centres and the reissuing of licences?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

If my noble friend does not mind, I shall focus on the first of those questions. First, I welcome any more pay for professional drivers, because they do an outstanding job. I recognise what my noble friend says about diversity. It is a very white, male sector. There are huge opportunities for the sector to diversify and, when it comes up with plans to do so—for example, Logistics UK’s Year of Logistics, which I hope we will get under way soon—I will be very happy to support them.

Historical Railways Estate

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I say to the noble Baroness that we would run the risk there of sharing responsibilities across two very disparate organisations that have different priorities. In my view, local authorities should be prioritising cycling and walking projects. They are able to take over these structures—Highways England would welcome them with open arms—such that they can put them within their active travel plans and make them useful for the future.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I declare my interest as president of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. Will my noble friend accept that opening up the extension to Whitby has ensured the increasing popularity of that railway? Will the Government ensure that future extensions are looked on favourably to ensure that it remains the most popular and most visited attraction in North Yorkshire?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is well aware that the Restoring Your Railway fund is available, and that any proposals put forward are given a fair hearing.

North of England: Rapid Mass Transport System

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I accept that there are capacity constraints on the East Coast Main Line, which is why we are investing more than £1.2 billion to upgrade it. On 11 June, LNER launched a consultation on the new proposed timetable for the East Coast Main Line from May 2022. I encourage all noble Lords who have an interest in the East Coast Main Line to respond to it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, if it is concluded that what we really need is a strategic rail link between not just Leeds and Manchester but Middlesbrough and Liverpool and all major towns in between to improve connectivity and boost productivity, how likely is that to happen and how much money will the Government allocate to it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reassure my noble friend that we are of course looking at connectivity across the regions. A number of urban centres need to be connected, and it is really important that we make sure that towns and villages are connected via local transport to those point-to-point systems.

BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have said numerous times, consumers are getting their refunds back and this is happening more quickly than it was earlier in the pandemic, as policies and practices have been put in place at the behest of the CAA and the work that it has done with UK airlines. I did not respond to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, because we are considering it among many other suggestions about how to get our international travel industry back on its feet. The Government also have ongoing work on airline insolvency following the Thomas Cook insolvency in the year before last.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I welcome the action taken by the CAA. I completely understand the difficulties set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and others; airlines and airports are suffering at the moment. But surely it is in the interests of airlines to ensure that they give passengers the best care and attention that they can. Like my noble friend Lord Balfe, I am due a voucher from Ryanair. Could the Minister address the issue of vouchers, which seem to disappear into the ether? Is there not a policy to remind passengers that they have a voucher and that it has to be used before its expiry date?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The same policy applies to vouchers as to cash payments if a flight is cancelled, but of course I cannot go into the detail of my noble friend’s circumstances. It is worth pointing out that, on 17 May, the Government published the Passenger COVID-19 Charter. It sets out what customers can expect, and what their rights and responsibilities are, when booking and travelling internationally. On the other side, we set out the reasonable expectations on the industry to be flexible. We did this to give both customers and the industry a firm footing, as we try to reopen international travel.

Hitachi Rail: Rail Travel Disruption

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the disruption to rail travel from the recent cracks found in trains constructed by Hitachi Rail; and what measures they intend to take to ensure that services can resume without further disruption.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that, following the introduction of comprehensive daily testing regimes, LNER is able to run substantially all of its pre-planned timetable and GWR is operating an amended timetable, prioritising intercity routes to south Wales and the south-west.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

As a regular user of LNER, I appreciate that it has had a triple whammy this year, with Covid and the lockdown, the substantial improvements that Network Rail is undertaking at King’s Cross and now the recent disruption in services. Could my noble friend confirm that substantial repairs are expected to be needed, in the medium and long term, to the class 800 carriages? It is a matter of note that LNER operates only Azuma trains in this class. It could take until the end of 2022 to complete the repairs. Could my noble friend confirm whether Hitachi has the experience and capacity to undertake these repairs, in this country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that of course Hitachi has the experience to undertake these repairs. It comes with a good track record of safety and a high-quality engineering pedigree. I reassure my noble friend that LNER will do whatever it can to keep the timetable going, potentially by using slightly shorter trains to ensure that services continue, as much as they can.

Railway Industry Association Report

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be well aware that decarbonisation of different modes has to happen at different speeds. For example, the reality on the railway network is that freight is a challenge, because it takes much higher levels of energy to pull freight cars along. Therefore, it is right that we look at each mode and try to decarbonise them as quickly as we can, and that is what we will set out in our transport decarbonisation plan.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that had there been some diesel trains operating on the east coast main line, there would have been a greater number of trains operating, given the recent problems with the cracks? The electric trains can operate from any power source; which power source do the Government intend to use for electric trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure that I entirely understand that question. The electric trains will use the power sources available. Decarbonisation of the power network is, of course, very important and a huge amount of work has already been done to decarbonise power generation. Therefore, when we combine decarbonising not only power generation but the transport system as a whole, we will reach our target of net zero by 2050.

Rail Disruption: Social and Economic Impacts

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is very tricky to make a detailed assessment of the reduction in revenue, given where we are at the moment and the fact that GWR operates a turn-up-and-go service, so numbers are very difficult to estimate. We estimate that, from an LNER perspective, it is probably a reduction of 1,000 passengers a day, but, as noble Lords will know, this is a fast-moving situation, these cracks were found on only Friday night and Saturday morning and, obviously, much more work needs to be done on the impact in the medium term.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I also declare an interest as a regular user of the east coast main line. I press my noble friend—because I understand that the department played a large part in designing the Azuma train—to address the part of the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about whether Hitachi will make good the damage, which is a very serious structural concern? Can she also assure the House today that the Government will review where the carriages will be sourced for the HS2 project?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure that I can give my noble friend all the assurances that she seeks on this matter. In general, Hitachi has a very strong track record in this area. The Department for Transport is not in the business of designing the details of trains—but if there is more information in this area, I will certainly get back to her. I reassure noble Lords that the removal of all these trains was carried out because safety is our highest priority; we are taking a very cautious approach to getting these units back on the tracks. However, we believe that we can do so safely and that we can undertake a medium-term forward repair plan to return them to 100% health.

E-Scooters

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 22nd April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the use of e-scooters, and (2) the number of (a) offences, and (b) casualties, caused by their use.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, e-scooter rental trials are under way in 31 regions across England, with the purpose of assessing their safety, benefits and wider impacts. Trials in London will begin in May. Evidence gathered from all 32 trials will inform a decision about future legal sales of e-scooters. We have made no assessment of their use, or the number of offences or casualties caused by their use, at this stage; these issues will form part of our overall evaluation, later this year.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I understand that e-scooters are illegal in London, so how is it that they are terrorising our streets and pavements, endangering and imperilling other road users and those using pavements, particularly vulnerable older pedestrians, young families and the disabled, as well as the sight-impaired? The most recent statistics that I have seen include pedal bikes, covering e-bikes and e-scooters. In 2019, 379 pedestrians were hit by pedal cyclists; four were killed and 122 were seriously injured. The questions to my noble friend are: what is the current framework for enforcement? Who is monitoring the use of e-scooters to ensure that they are limited to private land outside London and what penalties are imposed for their illegal use?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend highlights the intricacies of the different micromobility interventions that we have, of which e-scooters is but one. She is right that the private use of e-scooters on public highways is illegal. A person can be fined up to £300 or get six points on their licence, and their e-scooter can be impounded, so we have tools at our disposal. Local enforcement activities are operational decisions for local police forces.

National Bus Strategy: England

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is right, and in the middle of his contribution he basically set out what is in the strategy: giving control and accountability to local authorities. He made some important points about services and how different areas will have different needs. One of the bits buried in the bus strategy is how local authorities will be expected to set up something like a bus advisory board or equivalent, which will take into account the views of local people, services and businesses—everyone who has an interest in making the network run as well as it can. Even though all those people will put in their contributions, it will be up to the local authority to have the skills and capabilities to meet those needs and devise the sort of network that will be required. That bit is probably quite challenging, which is why we have put quite a lot of money into it.

Alongside listening to people and putting the network into place, it will depend on the situation; the strategy is not focused on rural and urban—it is focused on everywhere, as we recognise that every single place will be different. In some areas, turn-up-and-go on bus corridors will be perfectly acceptable and we will be able to put in more services in the evenings and at weekends. The other area that concerns me, to be honest, is cross-border services: how we make sure that longer services between two local transport authorities continue to function in an effective fashion. I recognise there is a lot to do. The Government stand ready to provide guidance, advice and support to local authorities as they take this challenge and run with it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I warmly welcome the bus strategy and congratulate the department and my noble friend on the document they have brought forward. I particularly welcome the rural mobility fund and place on record that it will be a huge help in rural areas, for much the same reason that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, gave. It will ease parking in market towns such as Thirsk and Northallerton if people can access a bus.

I also welcome the concessionary fares funding. The document states on the very last page:

“While the bus market is recovering, we will still look to Local Authorities to contribute to the operation of their bus markets, though to a decreasing extent.”


It refers in an earlier passage to the national concessionary travel scheme. I want to place on record that, while the Labour Government came forward with the scheme, which was very welcome in rural areas, neither for the initial scheme when it was local nor for the extended scheme when it became national were sufficient funds made available to the local transport authorities. From which budget, in these times when local authority budgets have been particularly stretched, does my noble friend think the money for concessionary fares will come?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point which is directly relevant to the support we are providing to the bus sector at the moment. Noble Lords will be aware that we have asked local authorities to continue funding bus operators in terms of their concessionary fares contributions at the same level as they did previously, even though the demand is significantly reduced. The vast majority are still doing that, and it is very welcome—indeed, essential —for their local areas. That funding comes from MHCLG; it is within the budgets that local authorities set and the funding streams they receive.

Rail Freight: Channel Tunnel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness is referring to our Mode Shift Revenue Support scheme, which is indeed already in place. It supports rail services where they may be slightly less commercial, to try to get freight off the road and on to rail. During the Covid pandemic we made sure that part loads would also be supported. The noble Baroness will also be pleased to hear that we have increased funding to this scheme by 28% in 2021 and it now amounts to £20 million.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concern that rail freight was down 37% in January this year over last year and that passenger traffic through the tunnel was down 71% in January over last year? What support might they be eligible for, for problems that are not of their making but are largely a result of the bureaucratic and administrative change of rules because of Brexit and the situation with Covid? Will she join with me in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, without whose good offices we may not have had a tunnel at all?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly join my noble friend for the latter comment. The tunnel is a great thing. The noble Baroness asked what support is available. We are working very closely with Eurotunnel to help it access the Government’s support schemes. Some of the Eurotunnel revenues remain in place, because of course haulage continues to go through on the shuttle system. The noble Baroness mentioned that freight was down 37% year-on-year in January. That was because, I think, people were expecting some changes and some impact of Covid. She will be relieved to hear that in February there was a 34% increase over January, and therefore I feel that things are heading in the right direction.

UK Logistics Industry

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 1st February 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Lord Taylor of Warwick? No? Then I call the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concern that the reason there are no queues at ports in relation to farm goods and fish products is because many of them are stuck on the continental port side? We have 100,000 pigs still stuck on farms, poultry is down by 20%, and the fish scenario will be familiar to her. What efforts can the Government make to ensure that these products can reach the ports, whether they are northern, east coast or southern coast ports, so that they can access the European market as quickly as possible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We recognise the need to continue working closely with businesses and certifiers as they adapt to the new requirements. It is vital that traders ensure that UK hauliers have the correct paperwork for new animal and animal product checks when they cross the EU border. There is extensive advice and support available. There has been relatively little disruption at the border so far, but we are seeing regulations interpreted in different ways by member states. The Government are working incredibly hard to address these differentials with those member states.

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are in frequent discussions with the rail freight sector. This is an important element of our decarbonisation strategy, as it takes goods away from the roads and transports them with a far lower level of emissions. The Government would actually like to remove all diesel-only trains by 2040, so I hope that makes the noble Lord happy. However, we must be cognisant that we do not want to shift freight from rail to road to achieve that target, because that would raise emissions. We are monitoring the situation, but our ambition is to remove all diesel-only trains by 2040.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

I congratulate Network Rail on the strategy. Will my noble friend do all she can to encourage it to improve rail links to existing ports and, especially, to encourage more multi-modal global rail freight facilities such as that at Doncaster?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This Government have invested £235 million in the strategic freight network in the five years from 2014. We appreciate that the intermodal connectivity hubs are incredibly important. The largest amount of rail freight—39%—goes to these intermodal hubs, so we welcome the development of strategic rail freight interchanges. They are incredibly useful, combining warehousing and connectivity for rail and road.

Airports National Policy Statement

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a series of questions that probably cannot be answered briefly, so I will write to him.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend undertake to keep under review airport passenger duty, which is now charged at double the amount compared to EU destinations and will act as a brake to ramping up airline travel as soon as the Covid pandemic is over?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend is aware, the Government are keeping airline passenger duty under review. We are aware that it has significant negative impacts, particularly on domestic flights, and we will consult in due course.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that it is very important that we make sure that job losses are kept to an absolute minimum, and I understand that that is indeed the case. The Government remain committed to Hull being one of our key ports within England; it is the 13th largest port in the country. It should be noted that there remain daily sailings to Rotterdam from Hull and that, in general, Hull will remain a very strong local economic area.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend give us a commitment today that the Government will do all they can to reinstate a ferry service that would be viable at the first available opportunity? Will she equally ensure that the spare capacity now in Hull will be used for freight, to increase freight capacity from the north and ease the bottleneck at Dover?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that there are currently 19 routes going from the east coast of England across the North Sea. Plenty of freight routes are already in existence and therefore I do not believe the loss of this route will have a significant impact on freight, as I have said. However, it is worth delving a little more deeply into the viability of this service. Tourists—cars and passengers—have been declining on this service since 2014, and substituting that loss with freight did not compensate the business sufficiently. Also, the ships on this route are ageing and economically obsolete. I fear that this service was not in it for the long term in any event.

Network Rail’s Enhancements Pipeline

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is wrong to extrapolate quite as far as he did. We have a relentless focus on controlling costs. He is right that there are some cost pressures from the preparatory works, but we remain confident that HS2 phase 1 can be built within the target cost of £40.3 billion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the improvements being made to King’s Cross Station, but does my noble friend accept that on any measure of cost-benefit analysis or impact assessment, HS3, now called Northern Powerhouse Rail, will deliver more in terms of economic benefits to the north of England and the levelling-up programme of this Government that I support? When will it be built?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The project to which my noble friend refers will be considered as part of the integrated rail plan. That will look at the delivery of high-speed rail alongside all other rail investments in the north and the Midlands.

Covid-19: Aviation Sector

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 5th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of quarantine provisions to address the COVID-19 pandemic on civil aviation; and what measures they plan to take to support the aviation sector.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we introduced the right measures at the right time based on scientific evidence. This included early implementation of enhanced monitoring at the UK border to identify symptomatic travellers from high-risk areas and the introduction of international travel corridors in July. The Government have provided an unprecedented package of financial assistance measures that the aviation sector can draw on, which we keep under review.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, the aviation sector has taken an enormous hit, and there has been a huge drop of confidence in consumer travel. There have been endless discussions between the aviation sector and the Government on introducing testing. Will my noble friend repeat the announcement that the Treasury Chief Secretary made at party conference virtually today that we will introduce testing in very short order, and that there will be one test on landing—on arrival—at an airport and a follow-up test five days later? Nothing short of that will actually boost confidence and allow airlines to really take off again this autumn.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that the Government are taking this issue extremely seriously. We are looking at all potential measures to reduce the length of the quarantine period. A test taken after an appropriate isolation period may be a suitable solution, and at the moment we are actively working through the practicalities and the technicalities to make sure that the solution works.

International Travel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Our existing measures are operating effectively. I had the same experience as the noble Lord: I went through the Greek system twice over the summer, on two islands, and found it to be very different in both cases. I do not think there is any country we should hold up as a great way of doing things. However, we are very open to hearing about new approaches and evidence from other countries. As I said in answer to a previous question, Border Force does spot checks on people filling out the PLF and, as I said previously, 4,154 cases have been referred to the police.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the two changes: introducing airline testing and extending the airline corridors to islands. Can my noble friend help me understand how the excellent work being done by the joint biosecurity centre can lead to three different results in three different nations of the UK? Also, is my noble friend as concerned as I am that the distance incoming passengers have to travel for subsequent tests, having had a test at the airport, could put passengers off? Will the Government address that, perhaps through a more mobile testing system? Is my noble friend aware that with imminent changes to airline schedules—the autumn and winter schedules come into effect at the end of this month—it is of the utmost importance to give longer than two or three days’ notice of any change to airline corridors?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The international travel corridors are not just airline corridors; they are corridors for all modes. As my noble friend will know, to cope with current demand, airlines have been changing their schedules far more frequently than previously, which was twice a year. I am aware that there are small issues occasionally with Test and Trace, and of course we are working on those and looking to improve them where problems arise. We must remember that the vast majority of people are able to get tested very quickly and get their result very quickly. My noble friend also mentioned the devolved Administrations. I believe I have gone as far as I can on that one—it is up to the devolved nations to decide. Any interpretation of data is always going to be subjective and they have reached a different decision from the UK Government as it applies to England. UK citizens in the devolved nations, and indeed in England, need to be aware and understand that these things can change.

Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The department is looking at and analysing the routes that people take and the modes by which they take them, at all times. That includes looking at how we travel to key economic areas within the EU and elsewhere.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, given the experience of Covid, there will be an element of home-working on a permanent basis. Will my noble friend ensure that the Government will look at more flexible fares, ensuring that more of us travel on the railways? What is the current barrier to rolling out the Oyster card, so that it can be used across at least the whole of England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Flexible fares will be a feature of the landscape going forward, and the noble Baroness is quite right that some people have changed the way that they work. However, we saw some of that shift before the Covid pandemic actually struck. We are also looking in detail at pay-as-you-go ticketing and contactless travel, which is absolutely essential for those of us who live in London—we know the benefits of the Oyster card. It was a manifesto commitment to extend contactless travel to more than 200 stations in the south-east.

Covid-19: Airline Sector

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of COVID-19 on the airline sector; and what steps they are taking to support that sector.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Government recognise the challenging times facing the airline sector because of Covid-19. They have announced an unprecedented package of measures that the sector can draw upon, including a Bank of England scheme for firms to raise capital, time-to-pay flexibilities, and financial support for employees.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, given the parlous state of the airline industry and the fact that it is a major employer and driver of the economy and vital for delivering the project of global Britain, does my noble friend recognise that a further package of emergency measures, such as a 12-month waiver for air passenger duty and an extension of the furlough scheme for aviation, is vital to safeguard the sector’s future, to stimulate demand and to safeguard airline jobs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

My noble friend is quite right that it is important that we give all necessary support to the aviation sector. She mentioned two possible things that could be done. On air passenger duty, that is paid by passengers, of whom there are of course very few at the moment, but to the extent to which an airline might have had previous liabilities, they have been allowed to delay paying that under the Government’s time-to-pay arrangements. On furlough, that scheme is already in place until October.

Aviation and Tourism: Cancellations

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for that suggestion and for bringing up the important issue of vouchers. Customers may be offered a voucher as opposed to a refund, but they are under no obligation to accept it. We are looking at all sensible proposals so that we can balance the protection of consumer rights, which is absolutely essential, with recognising the enormous impact this is having on an industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people and is a huge contributor to our economy.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the greatest problems facing the airline industry at the moment is cashflow? What support are the Government minded to lend to the airlines at this crucial time? What discussions are she and the department having with our international partners to enable flights to take off at some point this year, particularly regarding social distancing, which is important and very difficult to deliver on planes and at airports? What kit will passengers have to use and what will be done to enable our rules to be recognised by our international partners?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend raises an important series of questions. On voucher support, the Chancellor has already announced wide-ranging support for all sizes of businesses. I encourage all those in trouble in the travel sector to avail themselves of the opportunities that there are. On restart and recovery, which is very much on our minds as well, an aviation restart and recovery team has been set up specifically at the DfT to work with the aviation industry to understand all the challenges it will have to get our planes back in the skies and to make sure that people can once again travel.

Smart Motorways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness makes a number of interesting points. There are two things to consider here: actual safety and the perception of safety. On emergency refuge areas, we are doing all sorts of things to ensure that they are more visible. On new motorways, the standard will be that they are three-quarters of a mile apart. We are making sure that, where possible, they meet the 15-foot width standard. As for the perception of safety, the important thing is that drivers understand what a smart motorway is, how it can benefit them, how they should use it and, if they get into trouble, exactly what they need to do.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister take my thanks back to the Government following the debate to which she kindly responded recently? Will she accept that the smart technology is not up to speed for the smart motorways, and will the Government delay the continuation until the smart technology is in place?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for her warm words about the report and put on record my thanks to everybody in the department who worked on it. It was an enormous undertaking, involving a huge amount of data that had to be analysed. I am perhaps not entirely sure to what the noble Baroness is referring as all sorts of technology already exists on these motorways, be that the red “X” signs to prevent people travelling in certain lanes, the enforcement of those signs, or the MIDAS speed monitoring systems. All sorts of things are in place. She may have been referring to stopped vehicle detection, which we are rolling out more quickly than we originally anticipated; that will be in place within three years.

Flybe

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

On the issue of communications with employees, hearing it on the radio is less than ideal. I am sure it is not how any noble Lord would treat any of their employees. It is not acceptable and there are better ways of keeping employees up to date with what is going on. I cannot agree with the noble Lord that all is doom and gloom for employees and that everything must be improved. As I set out in the opening Statement, there are many routes that employees can now take. The Government stand ready to help, working alongside the unions, and the Insolvency Service is able to make payments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

To pursue the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on routes and the fact that Virgin is a major shareholder of Flybe, what will happen to Flybe’s profitable routes? Can my noble friend assure the House that there will be a proper procedure to make sure that they are sold to the highest bidder, so to speak? I raised the question of PSOs in the earlier Statement: will she make sure that this is dealt with as a matter of urgency?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Aviation services are part of the market economy and we would expect the profitable routes to be taken up by other airlines. As I have mentioned, we have had proactive input from a number of airlines looking to service those routes. I can say no more about PSOs. The Government are looking at both the profitable routes and those that may need support, and at all possible options to get them up and running.

Flybe

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has made some very helpful suggestions, should they ever be needed in due course, about looking at which domestic routes would benefit from support. I reiterate that this airline continues to operate as normal and therefore at the moment the Government have no plans to kick off that work.

On the airline insolvency review, it follows from the important work which was done for the department by Peter Bucks. He looked at airline insolvency. As I am sure the noble Baroness knows, it is incredibly complicated. When he published his report, he said that there is no silver bullet. The noble Baroness will also know that we announced legislation in this area in the Queen’s Speech, and I expect it to come to the House in due course.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely endorse the commercial strictures that my noble friend set out, but will she take this opportunity to explain to the House the Government’s policy towards regional airlines so that they will have a vibrant future going forward and, in particular, the possibility of regional airlines delivering on public service obligations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. I reiterate that regional connectivity is critical in aviation and across all modes. We will do whatever we can to ensure excellent regional connectivity going forward. Public service obligations can be incredibly important for social, medical and economic reasons. At the moment, we can add PSOs only on existing routes to London where they are in danger of being lost. However, we will look at all options for expanding the scope of our PSO policy in future.

Railways: Trans-Pennine Freight

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am sure that the noble Lord knows better than me that one should not believe everything one reads in the newspapers. However, as he will also know, the Oakervee review is taking a detailed look at all elements of HS2 and its phasing and will report soon.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister take this opportunity to comment on HS3 and its implications? I am sure that she and I are both subscribed to the northern powerhouse and its rail element: that we need to increase capacity on rail for both passengers and freight. As the noble Lord pointed out, the spur to Leeds and Sheffield is crucial in this regard. Will she confirm that both HS2 and HS3 will proceed as planned?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for raising further questions around HS2. She referred to HS3, which is known to most noble Lords as Northern Powerhouse Rail. It is an incredibly important, complicated and extensive project. It works closely with the trans-Pennine route upgrade, and indeed with HS2. The Government have already committed £60 million of funding to Transport for the North to develop the proposals and a further £300 million to ensure that HS2 can accommodate Northern Powerhouse Rail. As she made clear, Northern Powerhouse Rail could bring huge benefits.

Buses: Rural Services

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is right that the number of trips on buses is declining, although they represent 55% of all journeys on public transport. But it is also the case that the total number of trips taken by individuals is declining, and therefore the share of trips on buses has remained around about the same. To go back to the noble Lord’s point about funding, the Government are providing ring-fenced funding where it is needed. For example, we have provided £43 million of ring-fenced funding, which is paid to operators to support less viable services within their communities. We have also provided £65 million of rural services delivery grant, because we recognise that providing services in rural areas is more difficult.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, when the concessionary fares were rolled out under a Labour Government, the uptake in rural areas was greater but the funding to cover the costs was not there? Will my noble friend revisit schemes such as the post bus services that operated successfully between villages and market towns in areas like North Yorkshire, to see whether they can be rolled out again in full?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

It is the case that local authorities have a statutory duty to provide some concessionary travel, but they also provide discretionary concessionary travel, which is important too. I am not aware of the scheme that my noble friend noted, but I will be happy if she can send me some details and we will certainly look at this. I reiterate that we are being innovative about making the best use of our assets to make sure that people in rural communities have transport.

Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, these grouped instruments will ensure that all the applicable parts of the common fisheries policy have effect in UK law, should the UK leave the EU without a deal. The technical amendments that they make will ensure that retained EU law provides effective and enforceable UK law, as well as continuity to businesses, while protecting the environment. No policy changes are made to the effect of the retained EU law and no change is expected in the way that the fishing industry conducts its activities as a result of the instruments.

These three instruments are closely related. Two of them amend some of the same regulations—one making simple fixes and the other transferring powers to exercise functions contained in those regulations. The third instrument amends late-emerging regulations that came into force in late December 2018 and January 2019. Together, they amend retained EU law in order to provide legal continuity for UK fisheries management post EU exit.

The amendments extend and apply to the United Kingdom. Fisheries management in the UK is largely devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. These instruments have been developed and drafted in close co-operation with the devolved Administrations, who have given their consent, ensuring a common approach which respects the existing devolution settlements and maintains the existing system of fisheries management. For the future, the UK Government and the devolved Administrations are working together to develop a new UK framework made up of both legislative and non-legislative elements in order to maintain a common approach in a number of areas.

Where provisions place obligations or confer functions or powers on member states, the references to member states are, generally speaking, changed to “a fisheries administration” to maintain the existing system of fisheries management. In addition, EU-specific terms, such as “Union vessels” or “Union waters”, have been replaced with an equivalent term—for example, “United Kingdom vessels” and “United Kingdom waters”—to apply them to the UK only.

I shall deal briefly with each SI in turn. The first one, the Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, amends the majority of retained EU legislation. I refer noble Lords to paragraph 2.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which sets out the regulations that are amended by this instrument. These regulations include the following: the basic regulation; the control regulations; regulations on illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing; multiannual plans and effort regimes; the data collection frameworks, and many more. Other provisions—for example, those defining characteristics for vessels, the fishing fleet register and measures for the conservation of resources and ecosystems—will also be amended.

The instrument was presented to the sifting committee on 27 November 2018 and it recommended that it be subject to the affirmative procedure. Since then, additional detail has been added to the Explanatory Memorandum, including an annexe that more fully describes the nature of the amendments made by the instrument. It has been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which reported the instrument due to the public and political importance of fisheries. The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments did not report it.

The second SI, the Common Fisheries Policy and Aquaculture (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, amends regulations concerned with regional fisheries management organisations—RFMOs. Having these in place when we leave the EU will mean that we are fully compliant with international agreements, allowing us to join key conventions in our own right. The SI also amends the technical conservation measures that fishing vessels must adhere to. These regulations are essential for the management of the fisheries activities of UK vessels, wherever they are, and non-UK vessels in UK waters.

Furthermore, amendments are made to the North Sea multiannual plan, which establishes long-term plans for the recovery, preservation and sustainable management of mixed fisheries in the North Sea. The instrument also transfers powers previously conferred upon EU entities to make legislation or exercise legislative decisions. These will now be enacted by UK Administrations, and parliamentarians will be able to scrutinise them in a way not possible when the powers were exercised by the EU. There are also minor consequential changes to domestic legislation. The instrument has been considered by the SLSC and the JCSI, neither of which reported it.

Thirdly and finally, the Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2019 amend three regulations that set out exemptions from the landing obligation for certain fisheries in north-western waters and the North Sea. The minor, technical amendments to these provisions enable the UK to facilitate the full implementation of the scheme from January 2019. This will ensure that the UK continues to abide by the same conservation measures.

The SI also amends two regulations that set fishing opportunities. One sets total allowable catch—TAC—and quota for fish stocks for 2019, and the second sets total allowable catch and quota for certain deep-sea stocks for 2019 and 2020. In these two regulations, the prohibitions on the fishing of certain species in certain areas will be amended so that they continue to apply. However, provisions that put into law the TAC and quota set by the EU will be revoked because it will not be appropriate for these to apply to the UK when we become an independent coastal state. Again, the instrument has been considered by the SLSC and the JCSI, neither of which reported it.

Because these instruments make only necessary technical amendments to retained EU law that, prior to exit day, already applies in the form of directly applicable EU law, the impact is expected to be minimal and therefore a full impact assessment was not carried out. While there was no formal duty to consult, a 10-week consultation was conducted through the fisheries White Paper, which described future fisheries policy as well as the general legislative approach taken by these SIs.

Alongside that, meetings have taken place with key stakeholders from the fisheries sector, including the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations and the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation; the wider industry, including producer organisations; and environmental non-government bodies such as the World Wildlife Fund. Stakeholders, including the Association of Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities, were supportive of the approach. We have also been happy to receive questions and comments from environmental non-governmental organisations, including ClientEarth and the Green Alliance, which we have addressed in the Explanatory Memorandum and made publicly available.

These instruments make retained EU law effective in UK law. The legislation is essential to ensure that we retain an effective system of fisheries management from day one of EU exit, so that our fishing continues to be well regulated and sustainable. This legislation is complemented by the Fisheries Bill, which creates the powers to allow us, over time, to build UK policy for a sustainable and profitable fishing industry. A previous instrument, the Fisheries (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, amended domestic fisheries legislation to make it effective in UK law after EU exit; some of those amendments arose as a consequence of changes made by these instruments. That instrument was taken through this House by my noble friend Lord Gardiner on 6 February 2019. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for moving these rather meaty statutory instruments. I would like to place on record my admiration for the then fisheries Minister in the other place, my honourable friend Richard Benyon, for the fisheries policy that he negotiated. It has been revolutionary and has changed the way that fisheries policy is decided and conservation measures are taken. It set the scene by allowing coastal states to agree what the conservation measures would be.

Under the new provisions that we are adopting this evening, with retained EU law and making sure, as she said, that there is a smooth transition to our becoming a third country, if one cares about conservation of fisheries going forward, how will we agree conservation measures with the nearest coastal state? The way that the map is drawn means that we virtually share waters with our nearest neighbour, France. The Scottish fisheries situation is slightly different in that Scotland does not have a near neighbour in the sense of backing up to a coastal state.

Having said that, I think that Scottish fishermen will be deeply interested in one of the few—three, in fact—rollover agreements that has been agreed: that with the Faroe Islands, where we take £200 million mostly in fish products each year. Obviously, that will compete directly with the Scottish fisheries. I understand that the agreements with Norway and Iceland are not yet available to view, but I would imagine that most of the imported products from Norway and Iceland will also be in fisheries. I have two questions on that. First, what discussions have there been in the Joint Ministerial Council on the rollover agreements to date, the future rollover agreements and the implications, particularly for Scottish fishermen? Secondly, how will we agree going forward to conserve those fish? I have always maintained that fish do not wear a union jack; they swim between the various waters and it is very difficult to control them. We need a conservation policy that will be shared on an ongoing basis with our near neighbours, the French and others, with whom we currently share a common fisheries policy. Going forward, I am sure that it will be the Government’s intention to do this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My noble friend mentioned Cefas. I visited the International Council for Exploration of the Seas in Copenhagen about two years ago. It has a number of leading British scientists and other nationalities who will be concerned about their status, but it is an international organisation. Have the Government formed a view as to whether we will still be a party to ICES post Brexit?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I believe that we will be and I shall write if that is not the case—it is indeed the case.

Enforcement is an incredibly important issue. Defra is working very closely with the Marine Management Organisation, the Association of Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities, the Royal Navy, Border Force and other organisations to make sure that appropriate arrangements are in place for day one. The UK will maintain its scheme of monitoring, control and surveillance through vessel monitoring systems, electronic logbooks and other reporting requirements. Over time, as we develop our fisheries regime, we will use the new powers in the Bill to create the offence of vicarious liability against, for example, owners and charterers of fishing vessels.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, was very clear that we should make sure that all those operating on the front line of control and enforcement are briefed on what they should do on day one: this is critical, because we have seen what has happened when things have gone wrong. People can be in the wrong place at the wrong time and doing the wrong things; tempers can get very frayed indeed and it can escalate extremely quickly. So, following approval from Her Majesty’s Treasury and Ministers, we are implementing our full control and enforcement preferred approach and putting in place a significant uplift in our control and enforcement capability for day one. In addition, the Joint Maritime Operations Coordination Centre—JMOCC—has been established to enhance joint working between law enforcement agencies and the Royal Navy to improve patrol capabilities and increase information sharing across government.

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, for drawing our attention to the issue of the Irish border. Many people think that that is a land border, but it is a sea border too, and I know of concerns about the suspension of the agreement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland due to a verdict of the Supreme Court of Ireland several years ago. This agreement allows for fishing in the inshore 0-6 nautical miles zone of Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland waters. The Government are pleased that the Irish Government have committed to resolve the issue and to restore the agreement on the Irish side. We will certainly continue to discuss this with the Irish Government. Furthermore, we are working very closely with the Irish Government to patrol the seas in that area. It is absolutely critical that in all these circumstances, we work very closely with our neighbours to make sure that there are no misunderstandings, while recognising that, for example, control of seas around Northern Ireland is the responsibility of DAERA in Northern Ireland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned the replacement of penalties. I should point out that fisheries administrations already have the power to adopt appropriate measures for ensuring control, inspection and enforcement activities under domestic legislation, so it is not necessary to bring the powers across. Where we already have the powers, obviously, we have not brought them across. The current and proposed future UK system of control and enforcement delivers effective penalties. We have no intention of weakening what we already have in place. Section 24 in Part III of the Fisheries Act 1981, for example, sets out penalties for offences, and Chapter 3 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 sets out the civil sanctions to be imposed by the appropriate licensing authority.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the cost of joining RFMOs. I am afraid I cannot remember what each of the initials stands for, so the noble Lord will have to forgive me, but for the IOTC—I am guessing that the T might stand for tuna; I cannot remember.

International Waste Shipments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the primary aim of this instrument is to amend EU and domestic legislation on waste shipments to enable their continued operability. The technical changes contained in this instrument will eliminate the risk that UK regulators would be unable to prosecute for, or prevent, illegal shipments of waste. They also provide legal clarity, certainty and reassurance for UK businesses involved in waste shipments. The legislation is this area is reserved, but this instrument has been the subject of extensive consultation with the devolved Administrations, who are content.

This instrument makes many adjustments, and I will highlight some of them. Noble Lords will not be surprised to learn that they are fairly technical in nature.

Part 2 corrects outdated references to the “Department of the Environment” in Northern Ireland to its new name, the “Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs”.

Regulations 14 and 15 omit references to “Community Regulation”. Regulations 16, 17, 42 and 43 omit provisions in the domestic legislation relating to EU bodies, historic transitional provisions and previous revocations, which are all now redundant.

Regulations 18 to 25 make provision for the UK Plan for Shipments of Waste, dated May 2012, to continue to have effect and to be changed in the future.

Regulations 26 to 41 make technical changes to the offence provisions in the domestic regulations. These changes preserve the scope of existing offences and ensure that no new offences are created.

Part 4 removes references to the relevant retained EU law in Annexe XX to the European Economic Area agreement. The references are no longer needed because the retained EU legislation on waste shipments has been amended so that it sets out all of the rules which govern shipments to or from EFTA countries.

Regulations 46, 47, 50, 63 and 105 to 108 amend the scope of retained EU law to make it clear that it applies to waste shipments to, from or through the UK; they also correct definitions and out-of-date references to EU legislation.

Regulation 48 amends definitions and make technical changes to ensure that references to competent authorities and references to the 2008 waste framework directive, which appear throughout the retained EU legislation, will continue to be effective.

Regulations 52 and 53 make technical changes that preserve the existing powers of the regulators to object to notifiable waste shipments for disposal or recovery. The draft instrument substitutes references to principles in the EU’s waste framework directive with Basel convention obligations to have adequate disposal facilities and to minimise the movements of hazardous wastes and to ensure that shipments of wastes are only allowed if the state of export does not have the facilities to dispose of the wastes in question in an environmentally sound manner. The changes also ensure that regulators can continue to object to proposed shipments where the destination operates to lower environmental standards than those in the UK.

Regulation 69 omits Article 33 of the EU regulation, as this requires member states to set up systems for internal waste movements consistent with the system used between member states. Given that the UK has a system for internal waste movements, these provisions are considered redundant.

Regulation 91 makes a number of amendments to enforcement provisions. The provisions of Article 50 have already been implemented in the UK and so some of these provisions are redundant and can be omitted. The changes made preserve the requirement for a national inspection plan.

In addition, Regulation 91, and Regulations 92, 94 and 96 make changes that preserve obligations to report to the secretariat of the Basel convention, publish information and omits obligations to designate competent authorities and provide information to the European Commission.

Regulation 95 makes technical changes that maintain a power for the Secretary of State to designate places where waste entering or leaving the United Kingdom will be controlled.

Although there was no statutory requirement to consult on this instrument, Defra officials have engaged with industry and NGO representatives. The Explanatory Memorandum refers to,

“a large face-to-face event”.

In fact, there have been two large events and a number of one-on-one meetings with industry representatives to explain this instrument’s approach. No substantive comments or issues were raised, and questions received related to clarification on how the existing processes will function after the UK leaves the EU.

The Committee will be aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee raised concerns about the UK’s ability to continue exporting hazardous and other notifiable waste to the EU in a no-deal scenario. On the basis of those concerns, the committee recommended that this instrument should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. It highlighted a transitional issue with the validity under EU law of approvals to ship notified wastes where those approvals extend beyond the date of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. The Committee will be pleased to hear that this issue has now been largely resolved.

Should the UK leave the EU without a deal, the UK regulators have obtained agreement from their EU counterparts that 98% of the approvals to ship notifiable waste to the EU can continue in their current form. No new applications will be required to allow the export of these wastes, and there will be no additional administrative costs associated with the approvals process. Spain is the only member state still to provide a response to 11 approvals. Defra officials have met with officials from the Spanish ministry of environment. Given that these shipments have previously been approved, there is agreement on both sides that it is important to avoid unnecessary duplication.

These adjustments represent no changes of policy. While there was no statutory duty to conduct an impact assessment, in developing these instruments we have sought to ensure the minimum disruption to businesses involved in the shipment of waste through retaining existing law. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for setting out the background to this instrument, which I welcome. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

The Minister referred to a national plan being in place. Has anyone voiced concerns about this plan? Are they entirely happy with it? At what date will that national plan kick in?

I think that my noble friend has addressed the concerns raised by Sub-Committee B of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, but there was a scenario referred to whereby 556 UK approvals to export notified waste to the EU, with an associated tonnage of just under 25 million tonnes, might be caused to fall into an abyss. Can my noble friend put my mind at rest that the situations in paragraphs 3.6 and 3.7 on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum have been resolved?

Fertilisers and Ammonium Nitrate Material (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in what has thankfully been a short debate; I believe that this is a fairly simple piece of secondary legislation which we should be able to dispatch fairly quickly. However, I appreciate the comments made by many noble Lords, and certainly from my noble friend Lady Byford. The consultation period was very important to us, and it was quite interesting that the agreement was that two years was the best time; this is the period that had been used previously. For example, when the label had to be changed from “EEC fertiliser” to “EC fertiliser”—they had to knock out an “e”—that took two years, which seemed the appropriate amount of time for the bags to be relabelled and for more to be produced with the new label. The transition period is an important issue for the labelling and I am pleased that it seems all parties are happy with where we have got to.

I turn to the comments made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh. It is always a pleasure to see her in these debates, but I sometimes fear slightly what she may say—I do not want to say that she may go off-piste, when I am sure many of us are supposed to be skiing. She certainly asked me some questions that I cannot hope to answer within the scope of what the Committee is discussing. For example, I am afraid that ammonia emissions go far beyond what I have and can help noble Lords with, but it is important that many bodies already exist which farmers can go and speak to on the use of fertilisers. When we get to consider the Agriculture Bill in your Lordships’ House, we will be discussing advice to farmers and their relation to the environmental land management schemes which will be put in place. All those things are very important for how we function in harmony with the countryside, so perhaps my noble friend would hold her horses just a little while longer and we will come back to that.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for answering as she did. This goes to the point that a number of your Lordships made during the debate that other regulations have been coming through. It must be just as irritating to the team at the department to have this piecemeal approach. It would help farmers enormously if we had one approach to a substance such as ammonia.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend is quite right but I see us as doing something specific today, which is to protect our country in the event of a no deal Brexit, which I am sure none of us would want to see. I recognise that we sometimes have to deal with these provisions in a slightly piecemeal fashion but they are designed to be piecemeal—to be nice little nuggets that we can discuss and then hopefully move on, having protected our legislative framework which is clearly so important.

I also put forward a slight word of warning because apart from my Defra job I have another, which is as the Whip for BEIS. I am sure that many of your Lordships will be aware that that department has issued an SI which amounts to 330-odd pages. I see my noble friend Lady McIntosh saying that is not a problem but I am afraid that many people have regarded it as a problem. To a certain extent, bite-size pieces can be better. I see the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, rubbing his hands in glee and I hope that I will not be the Minister taking it through—I am sure that my noble friend Lord Henley will be better by then and with us.

To go back to the matters in hand today, my noble friend Lady McIntosh also mentioned the list of laboratories. Yes, that will be republished. At the current time, I believe that three laboratories do fertilisers. It will be republished shortly and I will make sure that that is the case.

I turn to the points raised by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose. What we are dealing with today is more about the imports than the exports, as I am sure he will appreciate. It is so important that our farmers have continuity of supply. Obviously, we cannot tell the European Union what to do if we leave with no deal. We will unfortunately be in a situation where there will be no reciprocity. However, it is the case that we import vast quantities of fertilisers, including ammonium nitrate, which is why we are extending a warm hand to those overseas manufacturers and saying: “Look, it’s okay. We will continue to recognise your labelling for the next two years to ensure continuity”.

With regard to chemicals more broadly and the REACH SI, regulations on which will I know be coming to us soon, that is a far more complicated area and we will have to go into it. It was most important for us to make sure that we have the systems and laboratories in place, and that we accept the results from overseas laboratories for that two-year period.

The question of exports was raised, both by my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Young. Fertiliser manufacturers based in the UK will, of course, be able to sell products into the EU. If we leave with no deal, they will do so as a third country, but they will have to comply with the EU regulation—they already comply with it at the moment, Regulation (EC) No. 2003/ 2003—and any other relevant legislation.

The noble Baroness raised the point about ensuring establishment—this is a very broad term—within the EU after exit. Sometimes, when exporting to third countries, you have to comply with them as they require. In some cases of larger companies, it would be cost effective to have an office there, but for many it is simply a case of using an import agent in that country. Those requirements would come into being; however, this is for no deal only. If we have an implementation period, none of this will come into play. If we get a free trade agreement thereafter, as we hope, much of this will continue, as we all wish it to, so I am afraid we are dealing solely with a no-deal scenario today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I just do not want us to leave.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

On that point, highlighted by the noble Baroness, the technical notice says that Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, being party to the European Economic Area, will be covered. Will lab costs have to be applied to export to those areas in the event of no deal as well?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

We will have to look into that in greater detail. I will write on that. We are possibly slightly off topic, as this is about the cost of exporting, but I will certainly write. I am very happy to do so.

Turning to the pesticides SI, it covers a range of different topics, so it is important that we discuss it today. It updates out-of-date references and provisions in the Ammonium Nitrate Materials (High Nitrogen Content) Safety Regulations 2003 and makes corrections to the EU plant protection product regulatory regime. It is a bit like what my noble friend Lady McIntosh is doing—it covers lots of things, but we are being told that we should not have done that. This instrument was laid on 18 February. We produced an impact assessment, which considered the collective impact of the three statutory instruments, and noble Lords will know that we have already discussed the other two affirmative SIs. This SI was discussed today in relation to the specific provisions about ammonium nitrate.

I believe that I have covered most of the points raised. Like my noble friend Lord Gardiner, I will review Hansard with great interest to check that I have covered all the points. Where I have already promised to write, I will certainly do so.

Animal Welfare Standards

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Wednesday 12th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord makes a very strong point. It is the case that it is up to schools whether they provide halal meat. Many schools that have a significant proportion of pupils who are Muslims will supply halal meat, but they might be able to accommodate pupils of other faiths within their food provision. I reassure noble Lords that major retailers have supplier requirements that all meat on supermarket shelves is stunned before slaughter.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am a fellow of the British Veterinary Association and a regular visitor to auction marts in the north of England. Does the Minister agree that the general problem is that there is meat being sold in this country as normal meat which is actually halal meat being passed off as normal meat? This is an urgent issue that has to be addressed by the Government. Will my noble friend explain to the House how the Government propose to address it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I have just mentioned the actions that have already been taken by the major retailers, but the Government are well aware of public concern around meat slaughtered in accordance with religious beliefs and we believe that we need to look at labelling and improve it where we can. We believe that if we can give consumers the information they require, they can make an informed choice. The Government have committed to a review of food labelling once our future partnership with the EU is clear.

Brexit: Sheep Farmers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his question and am happy to give a little more clarification if I can. As noble Lords will know, the consultation closed earlier this month, to which we had 40,000 responses. Agricultural policy is a devolved matter so there will be a system by which the Government have committed £3 billion of funding, which will continue. That money will be divided up between the four devolved Administrations according to an agreement between them and from then it will be up to the Welsh Government to decide how that money gets to Welsh farmers. In doing so, two considerations must be borne in mind. First, the UK as a whole will always be the unit for international negotiations and, secondly, we must maintain the integrity of the UK internal market.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister give the House an assurance today that the Government will not ban the limited and highly regulated export of live trade in sheep? This is a lifeline to farmers in North Yorkshire and other upland farmers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It must not be stopped.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am sure my noble friend is well aware that our call for evidence closed today. Of course, we will look at the responses. We have also asked the Farm Animal Welfare Committee to look at the transport of live animals. We will respond to the call for evidence in due course.

Marine Special Protection Areas

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, as I have already said, the focus of the regulations is not on stopping development or transport proposals. Even where there is an adverse impact, there are alternatives; for example, if there are no feasible alternatives, the transport will be allowed, if there is an imperative reason of overriding public interest and compensatory measures are secured. Obviously, I cannot comment on the specific case of Milford Haven but it seems to me that there are the right adverse impact get-outs in place.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take this opportunity to review the perpetual protection of certain species, such as bats, badgers and certain birds? Why are rights given in perpetuity to protect these species? Should these rights not be reviewed based on whether a species is actually endangered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, we have spoken about bats in the belfry in this House a number of times recently. I agree with the noble Baroness that perpetuity is potentially not correct and a review may need to happen in due course. But it must be remembered that population changes and impacts on population can sometimes happen over decades and we must never be too hasty.

EU: Transition Deal

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 19th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on the economy of failure to agree a transition deal with the European Union.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, because there are so many wonderful speakers and so little time, I will start to look fierce when the clock says three.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to have secured this timely debate, and I look forward to contributions from other noble Lords, especially the Minister. I refer to my interests in the register. I also worked as an EU lawyer in Brussels and advised MEPs before myself becoming an MEP. As an MP, I chaired the EFRA Committee, where some 80% of the work originated from EU directives and policies. I am also extremely proud to be half Danish, and I studied at the University of Aarhus.

Yorkshire and other parts of the UK have benefited hugely from our membership of the EU. Examples include current payments to farmers, both direct payments for producing farm products as well as stewardship schemes for environmental benefits, and financial services in Leeds, York and London have flourished within the single market. Leeds Bradford Airport and the Humber ports also provide a gateway to Europe for our goods, services and people to access the EU market.

Despite this, the electorate was split down the middle on the referendum, with only 37% voting for Brexit—52% of the 70% who voted. Many who voted remain stand prepared to change their minds once convinced that it really is in our interest to leave the European Union. Only 18 months are left to finalise the agreement. However, talks leading up to Brexit and the smooth transition afterwards appear to be stalling, which is why I have sought this debate today, to consider what the impact will be on the local and national economy in the event of there being no transition period or no deal being reached at all—and therefore no smooth transition and implementation period following our exit from the European Union.

As the UK applied to the EU Commission to set Article 50 in motion only in March, and negotiations started on 19 June, it would seem extremely precipitate to threaten to walk away after only four months of talks. The UK’s initial opening gambit was somewhat unfortunate in tone. However, the Florence speech which the Prime Minister gave last month represents an altogether more moderate and conciliatory approach. One way for the UK to capitalise on the new mood music and progress the talks would be for it to suggest hosting the talks, or one round of the talks, in London. That would be a positive idea and might be well received by our current partners.

The Prime Minister has said that on the day we leave the EU we will leave the single market and the customs union because we do not agree to the four pillars—the free movement of goods, services, capital and people—or the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Yet she states that we want to carry on trading on the same terms. How can that happen? This smacks of having our cake and eating it, and we have been warned that that is specifically not on the table.

The Government have indicated that they are prepared to walk away from talks without a deal or a transition period, with the Treasury committed to spend £250 million on preparations for such a scenario. Yet transitional arrangements are essential to give businesses more time to plan and eventually to create a new relationship between the UK and the EU. When discussing transition, it is vital to consider the nature of this relationship and the effect it will have on industry.

In farming, there are three potential outcomes of a future trade relationship, none of which guarantees increased production levels or farm-gate prices, although each could threaten higher costs for consumers. Farming confidence, which is key to investment and productivity, has already fallen sharply in the last two years. Continued access to EU workers is essential for the agri-food and hospitality sectors, as it is for the care sector and the NHS. The pound’s fall in value has had a huge impact on the economy. Falling prices have boosted exports yet also increased the price of imported materials. Transitional arrangements would increase certainty for seasonal and other EU workers as well as for the value of the pound. Such arrangements would also allow the Government more time to implement a new domestic agricultural policy to support farming.

The Government, other than stating that the UK does not wish to remain subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, have not explained what the dispute resolution mechanism will be for all those businesses that will still be buying and selling goods with our current EU partners. Such a scheme must be agreed by both sides in advance of any potential trade dispute.

There are many other outstanding issues. What will the customs and excise arrangements be? What will the costs be of putting those in place? How will we avoid the imposition of tariffs and quotas or, worse still, non-tariff barriers? Will financial services be allowed to passport their existing services within the EU? What is the status of the UK within the World Trade Organization? When will we become a member of that organisation in our own right as opposed to negotiating as part of the EU? How long will it take the UK to negotiate each free trade agreement with third countries, as they all lapse on the day that we leave? Is it the UK’s intention to apply under Article 127 to leave the European Economic Area? How costly will the physical checks and inspections at borders be for food, drink and other perishable goods and products?

To some, the US appears to be a preferred trading partner. However, the US rigorously adopts a protectionist approach. It does not, for example, allow foreign carriers to pick up and drop off on domestic air routes, and the aggressive approach that it recently demonstrated against Bombardier is an early indicator of future behaviour. The US and other non-EU countries such as New Zealand have objected to proposals agreed by the EU and the UK on how to split World Trade Organization tariffs on goods post Brexit. It is also a puzzle why the Department for International Trade has appointed a non-British person—a New Zealander—to lead negotiations for future trade deals when there are so many experienced British nationals to choose from in the EU Commission who are already negotiating at a very senior level and who would have seemed a far more appropriate appointment.

Another question is: what can we offer Commonwealth countries in a bilateral trade deal when they already enjoy preferential access to the European Union through ACP-EU membership, strongly encouraged by this country? One of its first achievements to be heralded was the setting of a fair and stable price for sugar.

Britain must demonstrate that it wants to make the best trade deals for Britain, not just any deal at any cost, which could have the potential to compromise our high animal health and welfare standards—for example, by accepting hormone-induced beef and chlorine-rinsed chicken from the United States. We should also be sensitive to the concerns of our near neighbours such as Ireland, where the common border is of concern. Effectively that becomes an external border, yet both sides of the border agree that they want no physical barriers. The EU has made this border issue, along with free movement and the rights of EU citizens, a top priority in these negotiations.

A particular sticking point has arisen over the third major EU priority—the budget: the amount that the UK will contribute to ongoing commitments. These include not just the salaries and pensions of British nationals—such as me—who are or have been officials of the EU institutions, but programmes such as Erasmus, which allows university students to study in other EU countries. There is also Horizon 2020, the EU research and innovation programme for companies, and EASA, the European air safety authority, which regulates licences for airlines.

The Government’s priority is to proceed rapidly to the next stage of negotiations, but what are the alternatives for our future relations? We are told that existing models, which are tried, tested and shown to work, are not suitable. Therefore, concluding a new arrangement by March 2019 is a tall order. It is important to recognise that there has never been a trade agreement for services anywhere in the world to date.

Britain is at a crossroads after taking the biggest single decision in over 40 years, with huge implications for the economy, and Parliament needs to have the best available information to hand. It is therefore appropriate and necessary that the impact assessments undertaken by the Government are published so that we can analyse the impact of Brexit on the economy.

Our European partners are bemused and confused. The messages coming from the Government are mixed, depending on the audience. The complexity of disentangling ourselves from administrative arrangements spanning 40 years is immense. Every sector is crying out for certainty. We owe to the people of Britain clarity, certainty and a smooth transition to future opportunities and challenges.