Online Safety Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th April 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

12BA: Clause 6, page 5, line 16, at end insert—
“(g) the duties on regulated provider pornographic content set out in section 72.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires user-to-user services to comply with duties under Part 5.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to the amendments in this group, which are in my name and are also supported by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. There are three interconnected issues raised by these amendments. First, there should be a level playing field across the Bill for regulating pornographic content. The same duties should apply to all content, whether it is found in social media or a user-to-user pornography site, which fall under Part 3, or a commercial pornography site, with producer content that falls within Part 5 of the Bill. Secondly, these common duties in respect of pornography must come into effect at the same time. My requiring that the same duties under Clause 72 apply to both Part 3 and Part 5 services means that they will be regulated for pornographic content at the same time, ensuring uniformity across the Bill.

Thirdly, through Amendment 125A, I wish to probe how Part 5 will function more specifically. Will any website or platform actually be covered by Part 5 if these amendments are not made? I had the privilege of speaking earlier to the Minister on these issues, and one question I would pose at this stage is, how many sites are covered by Part 5? That is one of the questions to which your Lordships’ House requires an answer.

The issue of ensuring that pornography is named as a harm on the face of the Bill, and that all pornographic content is age-verified, is not new. Indeed, it has been raised from the outset of the Bill, including at Second Reading in your Lordships’ House. In pre-legislative scrutiny even, the Joint Committee on the draft Bill recommended that

“key, known risks of harm to children are set out on the face of the Bill. We would expect these to include (but not be limited to) access to or promotion of age-inappropriate material such as pornography”.

To partly address this issue, the Government added Part 5 to the Bill, which sought to ensure that any platform that was not in scope of Part 3 but which included pornographic content should be subject to age-verification measures. I know that other noble Lords have put forward amendments that would add to the list of online harms on the face of the Bill, which we will be debating later in group 10.

Other amendments add to the duties that platforms hosting pornographic content need to comply with. These include Amendment 184, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which proposes that consent be obtained from performers, and Amendment 185, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, which seeks to ensure parity between what is permissible offline and online. The amendments I propose in this group are, I believe, complementary to those amendments. My amendments seek to ensure that duties across Part 3 and Part 5 in respect of pornography are aligned. Therefore, those additional duties contained in other amendments would be aligned across the Bill as well. When we get to that stage in Committee, I will be supporting those amendments.

The harms of pornography are well known and I do not propose to go over those again. I do, however, want to highlight one issue raised in a recent report published by the Children’s Commissioner for England. Her report states:

“Pornography is not confined to dedicated adult sites. We found that Twitter was the online platform where young people were most likely to have seen pornography. Fellow mainstream social networking platforms Instagram and Snapchat rank closely after dedicated pornography sites.”


The report found that 41% of children encountered pornography on Twitter, 33% on Instagram and 32% on Snapchat, while only 37% of children encountered pornography on main commercial websites. This means that children are more likely to encounter pornographic content on social media. That is why we need to ensure that standards across all platforms are uniform. The same standards need to apply to social media as to commercial pornography websites.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Perhaps I will speak to the noble Lord afterwards and make sure I have his question right before I do so.

I hope that answers the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and that on that basis, she will be happy to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very wide-ranging debate, concentrating not only on the definition of pornography but on the views of noble Lords in relation to how it should be regulated, and whether it should be regulated, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Browne, and I myself believe, or whether it should be a graduated response, which seems to be the view of the noble Lords, Lord Allan and Lord Clement-Jones.

I believe that all pornography should be treated the same. There is no graduated response. It is something that is pernicious and leads to unintended consequences for many young people, so therefore it needs to be regulated in all its forms. I think that is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, was making. I believe that these amendments should have been debated along with those of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, because then we could have an ever wider-ranging debate, and I look forward to that in the further groups in the days to come. The focus should be on the content, not on the platform, and the content is about pornography.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that porn is not the only harm, and I will be supporting her amendments. I believe that they should be in the Bill because if we are serious about dealing with these issues, they have to be in there.

I do not think my amendments are suggesting that children will be removed from social media. I agree that it is a choice to remove pornography or to age-gate. Twitter is moving to subscriber content anyway, so it can do it; the technology is already available to do that. I believe you just age-gate the porn content, not the whole site. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, as I said. These amendments should have been debated in conjunction with those of the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, as I believe that the amendments in this group are complementary to those, and I think I already said that in my original submission.

I found the Minister’s response interesting. Obviously, I would like time to read Hansard. I think certain undertakings were given, but I want to see clearly spelled out where they are and to discuss with colleagues across the House where we take these issues and what we come back with on Report.

I believe that these issues will be debated further in Committee when the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, are debated. I hope that in the intervening period the Minister will have time to reflect on the issues raised today about Parts 3 and 5 and the issue of pornography, and that he will be able to help us in further sessions in assuaging the concerns that we have raised about pornography. There is no doubt that these issues will come back. The only way that they can be dealt with, that pornography can be dealt with and that all our children throughout the UK can be dealt with is through proper regulation.

I think we all need further reflection. I will see, along with colleagues, whether it is possible to come back on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 12BA withdrawn.

Broadband: Price

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

We are advertising the support which is available generally. The social tariffs are available to people who are in receipt of universal credit and other means-tested benefits, but there is help for anyone who may be struggling to pay their bills, thanks to the commitments we secured from the industry last July. That is why we are advertising all of the help generally, through the Help for Households campaign, but of course that is being monitored for its success in getting the message out, and all ideas are welcome.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, BT businesses are operated under a special government regulation through Ofcom. In view of the fact that throughout rural areas in the UK, BT Openreach is providing broadband connections at highly difficult and challenging costs for many consumers, will the Minister, as a result of today’s questions, talk directly to BT Openreach about reducing its costs and ensuring that infrastructure issues are better dealt with, including wayleave permissions, because many people in rural communities cannot access the broadband they require to undertake their work?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

As the noble Baroness notes, Openreach’s prices are fixed by Ofcom as part of its five-year wholesale fixed telecoms market review and have been allowed to increase by CPI to reflect the significant additional costs faced when deploying new infrastructure. Our £5 billion Project Gigabit programme is delivering lightning fast and reliable broadband to hard-to-reach areas right across the UK, as the noble Baroness says. That funding is available to a range of suppliers; where infrastructure is built using public subsidy, suppliers must make their networks available for use by other operators so that everybody can benefit.

Online Safety Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow other noble Lords on this issue. This legislation is undoubtedly long overdue. Without doubt, the internet has changed the way in which we live our lives. For many this change has been positive. However, the internet, in particular social media, has created a toxic online world. We have only to listen to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and my noble friend Lady Anderson to realise that. As a result, the internet has become abusive, misogynistic and dangerous. Many noble Lords from across the House have personal experience of this toxic world of online abuse. Any measures that seek to place curbs and limits on that type of content are to be welcomed.

While it is important to protect adults from abuse online, it is more important that we get the Bill’s protections right for children. I welcome its provisions in respect of age verification, but for many across the House it is a surprise that we are even debating age verification. Legislation was passed in 2017 but inexplicably not implemented by the Government. That legislation would have ensured that age verification was in place to protect children over five years ago. While the Bill includes age assurance measures, it is disappointing that its provisions are not as robust as those passed in 2017. Also, it is concerning that age verification is not uniformly applied across Parts 3 and 5. What actions and steps will the Minister and his colleagues take in Committee with government amendments on this issue?

As this Bill makes progress through this House, it will be important to ensure that age verification is robust and consistent, but we must also ensure that what happened to the Digital Economy Act cannot be allowed to happen to this legislation. The Government cannot be allowed to slow down or even abandon age verification measures. This Bill, while welcome, needs to be amended to ensure that age verification is actually implemented and enforced. This must happen as quickly as possible after the Bill becomes law. I believe that age verification should be in place no later than six months after this Bill is passed.

The need for robust age verification is beyond any reasonable argument. Children should be protected from viewing harmful content online. The law in this regard should be simple. If a platform contains pornographic content, children should be prevented from viewing it. More than that, pornography that is prohibited offline should be prohibited online. Reading the provisions of this Bill carefully, it is my belief that the Bill falls short in both regards.

I look forward to the passage of this Bill through the House and, while it is a very welcome development to be discussing and having this Bill, it is important that the provisions and clauses within it are totally strengthened.

Online Pornography: Digital Economy Act 2017

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It was a deeply saddening case and our thoughts are with Archie Battersbee’s family. We are focusing on doing everything that we can to prevent cases such as Archie’s happening again. That is why the strongest protections in the Online Safety Bill will be for children. It is important that we sort this out as soon as possible, while putting aside or looking at some of the debates on wider issues of freedom of speech. Clearly, free speech is not a defence for not protecting children. That is why we will focus on children. Tech firms will be forced to protect children from dangerous viral stunts and other illegal or harmful content that will cause significant harm. Where content depicting or promoting online challenges risks causing significant harm to a number of children, companies will have to take steps to protect children from this content on their services. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who has just been reappointed, is very clear: she wants to bring the Online Safety Bill back as quickly as possible and we aim to do that.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have commissioned research on the prevalence and impact of a wide range of harmful content online, including pornography. Could the Minister indicate when that research will be published, and if a copy will be placed in the Library in your Lordships’ House?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

On that particular piece of research, I will have to check with the department and write to the noble Baroness. We are quite clear that, when we bring back the Online Safety Bill, the focus will mostly be on the protection of children from harm. We can have a debate on some of the other issues—the tension between freedom of speech and what adults should have access to—sensibly and calmly, as noble Lords usually do, but we want to get this right for the protection of children.

BBC Funding

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I have said that, as the BBC is operationally independent, it is for the BBC to decide how it spends its settlement of £23 billion over the settlement period, and how it serves the people who are funding it.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister seems to indicate that freezing the BBC licence fee could be used as a cost-saving measure to help those who have to meet rising costs as part of the cost of living increase. Does the Minister not agree that it would be much better if the Government were to reduce, and not bring forward the increase in, national insurance contributions—as a measure of dealing with the cost of living increases and ensuring that the BBC continues to provide a good level of fair and equal broadcasting right throughout the UK?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Baroness will, I hope, appreciate that decisions on other departments’ areas and how the Government can help people with the cost of living are not for me. However, I hope I infer from her comments that she welcomes the decision that the Secretary of State has taken to do our bit to help people with the rising costs of what otherwise would have been a licence fee increase to £180 by 2027.

Online Sexual Harassment of Children

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My noble friend is right, and of course it is not just on computers but on smartphones that people are able to access the internet. The majority of people, children included, have a beneficial experience online; we are keen to maintain that, while bringing in the safeguards that are important for them, and that is what the online safety Bill seeks to do. In the meantime, we are very grateful to the Children’s Commissioner for her work in helping parents and grandparents have the important conversations with young people who are using the internet.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, children’s safety online is vital to protect their mental health and protect them from many harms. This is not an issue solely for England; it is a UK-wide issue. In view of that, will the Minister, in association with and alongside the online safety Bill, consider a summit of the nations and regions of the UK, so that positive resolutions that will help eradicate this and a plan of implementation to prevent children being abused online can be brought forward?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the issue is even broader than the noble Baroness suggests. It is international in scope, and the Government are working with Governments around the world and online providers based in other jurisdictions—we do that regularly. We are engaging with them on the online safety Bill. Those discussions are informing that Bill, which will be an important part of enforcing the action across the globe that we all want to see.

Covid-19: Broadband

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have an incredibly ambitious and currently very successful programme of rolling out broadband across the country. The quickest way to get everyone, particularly those on the wrong side of the digital divide, included is for that programme to progress—both the commercial aspects and the £5 billion that we are putting into Project Gigabit to make sure that rural communities also have good access.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, could the Minister outline what plans the Government have to monitor the effectiveness of social tariffs offered by broadband providers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is within the role of Ofcom to monitor that effectiveness.

Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Friday 27th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation of these regulations, which address how on-demand programming and video sharing platforms will be regulated after the Brexit transition period. Like the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Blunkett, I have certain issues regarding the gap during which there does not seem to be any form of control. When dealing with digital platforms and the potential for child abuse, full regulatory and legislative control is vital, so I have some questions for the Minister.

The House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee raised some issues, the main one being the lack of an online harms Bill. According to the White Paper published some years ago, it should cover child sexual exploitation, hate speech, terrorist offences, online crime and online bullying and harassment. What is the expected date of this Bill? In her introduction, the Minister said it would be early in 2021. Because of the gravity of the situation, and because of the gap between the end of the transition period on 31 December and whenever this comes into operation, could she specify a date today? During this regulatory gap between the end of the transition period and the implementation of this Act, Ofcom will simply be unable to operate its regulatory function. Are there any plans to provide a temporary power to Ofcom to deal with this regulatory gap until the full legislation is ready for publication, debate, implementation and Royal Assent?

Another area of concern is that both Google and Facebook have their European headquarters in Dublin, where EU regulations will apply, and the new arrangements will apparently not allow Ofcom to intervene where these companies may have UK subsidiaries. Is it not possible, as part of the UK-EU negotiations, to discuss some resolutions in this area, when the issue of the protection of children from sexual exploitation is vital? There are also issues around scamming and people who extort money using these digital platforms. Will Ofcom and the online harms Bill be able to deal with those issues?

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Earl, Lord Erroll.

Covid-19: Artificial Intelligence

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will make two points in response to the noble Lord’s remarks. First, it is the combination of the data and the human moderation that allows us to use AI most effectively. Secondly, the noble Lord highlighted some of the problems rather than some of the huge successes that we have had recently, including using AI and big data to identify those who needed to shield, using AI to predict the molecular structure of the virus, and many more important examples.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) (V)]

My Lords, will the Minister outline what discussions and engagements take place with the devolved Administrations in relation to using innovation and artificial intelligence, particularly in the whole area of Covid-19?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Obviously, we are working very closely with the devolved Administrations and encouraging as much collaboration as possible.