High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]]

My Lords, this is my last contribution at this stage of the Bill. Although I had originally intended to take part in the debate on the next group, there are more than enough committed Members of the House to speak to those amendments, so I will listen and cheer them on.

I will take this opportunity to thank my noble friend the Minister most sincerely for her patience in dealing with my concerns and for writing to me with various points of clarification.

I will not detain your Lordships for long on this amendment. Perhaps I should say at the outset that I do not propose to divide the House; rather, this is another of my attempts to draw attention to how HS2 Ltd should look at how it conducts itself to avoid the mistakes that have been made previously, and indeed are still being made. Those mistakes have seriously alienated many local residents along the line and I would not want them to be repeated on the phase of the project that is the subject of this Bill. My proposed new clause would clarify who was responsible for security and public safety. More than that, it would make the Secretary of State publish quarterly reports on the security provision and public safety around the scheduled works.

I do not condone unlawful protests, and I often think that such campaigns do more harm than good, although I admit that I did once say that I would stand in the path of the bulldozers if a third Heathrow runway was built—a line repeated by my successor in the Uxbridge constituency with, I believe, more controversy than I ever engendered. However, in the scheme of things, I am always more of a suffragist than a suffragette.

However, lawful protest is something else. Because of several incidents that have occurred, I would want to ensure that, however frustrating such protests might be for those doing the construction, legal protests were allowed and dealt with appropriately. Noble Lords might have seen recent reports, and indeed video footage, of a security guard who seemed to place his knee on the neck of one such protester. I do not know the full circumstances of the incident, but I do not need to emphasise the sensitivity of such action in these days. My honourable friend Michael Fabricant, the MP for Lichfield, has, rightly, raised this with a Minister in the other place.

There have been a number of other examples of excessive use of force on protesters, which, in my layman’s eyes, seem very close to assault. I believe that training is given but I am not sure that it is always observed. I am also rather concerned that one or two individuals, given a uniform of sorts, feel that they are above the law.

Another area of concern that I hope will not be repeated in this phase of HS2—it should not be, as it relates to the pandemic—is where HS2 construction workers at the height of the lockdown were entering local food shops and other places along the line of transport while completely ignoring social distancing.

There is also of course a need to ensure that the boundaries of the project are secure, so that not only protesters but inquisitive young people cannot enter the site. I recognise that the issue of public safety goes both ways. I therefore feel that HS2 must be properly accountable both in theory and, more importantly, in practice. I ask my noble friend—who, as I said, has been very patient in dealing with this particular Grumpy, as opposed to Swampy—where the public can go to register their concerns, as I am afraid that our confidence in HS2 is at rock bottom. I hope that this will be rectified without the need for my new clause.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, safety levels in industry in general in the UK are very high. These days, we take rail safety more or less for granted, but that was not the case two decades or so ago. Last year, we had a harsh reminder that we should not take it for granted, with the tragic accident in south Wales.

The noble Lord is right to raise this issue. I put my name down to speak because I was curious to see whether it was a general concern about safety or a specific issue that sparked the amendment. It is clear from what he has said today that his interest centres on the behaviour of employees towards residents and protesters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Carrington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a landowner, as set out in the register. I am also directly affected by HS2 south of Birmingham. I had not intended to speak on these amendments, but the groupings changed at some point, and my name seems to have been retained. Now, on further research, I think it worth making some basic observations.

HS2 claims that only 43 out of 52,000 ancient woodlands will be affected, and 80% of the 43 will remain intact. Therefore, we are talking about just 0.005% of ancient woodlands. We should also remember that, as we heard last week, some of these ancient woodlands are far from being ancient. I happen to own and manage such a designated wood. It was owned by the Forestry Commission, which felled and replanted it almost entirely with Corsican pine shortly after the last war. The wood failed: Corsican pine was the wrong tree to grow on heavy Oxford clay. I have replanted it with hardwood, and it is thriving, together with all the flora and fauna. I did not need a special report to do this—I just got on with it. HS2 will have a similar responsibility and opportunity.

My real comment is that although these amendments are well intentioned and harmless, they are unnecessary and a further bureaucratic exercise, something that most woodland owners and managers dread. The compilers and others involved in these suggested reports would be better occupied in actually managing these woodlands on the ground with planting, weeding, pruning and pest control. Erecting hides to help manage the barking deer population as well as removing squirrel dreys with poles and setting humane traps for this worst of pests would be a more constructive use of everyone’s time.

Having said this, I would certainly not oppose Amendment 13 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, but I believe that Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, is a little over the top.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow on from the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, because he picked up on an issue that I raised in the previous debate on this. Ancient woodland does not necessarily mean ancient trees—they are of variable quality. However, of course, they include a number of fine pieces of woodland that have rich ecosystems because they have been on that site for a very long time.

I am pleased that the Minister has indicated that she will accept Amendment 13. The previous debate was characterised by very vigorous discussion between Members of this House with a considerable knowledge of environmental issues. There was an obvious level of disagreement among the experts and, therefore, Amendment 13 enables this not to become the subject of the debate. One assumes that the reports concerned will follow on from expert advice.

I hope that these annual reports will not be yet another bureaucratic process but a mechanism to enable public scrutiny of how HS2 is performing in practice and to ensure that there is progress and improvement in standards of land and woodland management as the project progresses. This is a massive project and there is no excuse for getting anything other than the most expert advice on woodland issues. In financial terms, the cost of woodland replanting and improvement is very small indeed in comparison with the costs of the engineering aspects of the project.

I will repeat a question I have asked before and come back to a topic I have dealt with before. Our rich environments—areas of outstanding environmental importance—are not just limited to ancient woodlands: wetlands and meadows can be every bit as important in terms of environmental and ecological significance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I want to speak to the principle behind the amendment rather than its exact terminology.

There was a time when NDAs were exceptional, but well over 300 of them for HS2 show that we have moved a long way from that in terms of commercial procedure. Why do we have FoI questions and FoI legislation? In many cases, processes such as NDAs were being used to hide inconvenient pieces of information. Information is power; it always has been and always will be.

My noble friend Lady Kramer excellently outlined the complex issues associated with this, particularly on proscribed people. That picks up on the Minister’s response when we discussed in Committee the issue of the number of people coming forward as whistleblowers.

However, the issue goes far wider than HS2 and will, I am sure, be aired in this House on other occasions. The Grenfell inquiry is totally separate, but that public inquiry has revealed how important the detail of commercial arrangements is and what motivation there may be for such hiding that detail. There is commercial realism, but nevertheless, there is a balance to be struck. When individuals sign these agreements they often do so without fully appreciating the complexity of what they are signing up to.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I too attended the Zoom session on this issue. I thank the Minister and those present for organising it.

I can see that NDAs were necessary in the consultation stage, but there is a question mark, which is difficult to debate, over whether they were necessary in such volume. More importantly, was there possible misuse to suppress whistleblowers? We were given some assurances about that, which, once again, I found at least partially convincing. I hope that the Minister will repeat those assurances for the record.

There is a more general point as to whether NDAs are overly used in public procurement. I believe that there may be a case for more transparency and that the Government should consider launching a general investigation into transparency in public procurement. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that that is a bigger issue and it would be inappropriate to pursue it further at this point.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has withdrawn, so we now turn to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his sterling efforts to help us poor lay men understand the complexity of the topic involved in these amendments. I have a rather unfashionable approach to experts; I tend to think that we should listen to them. On this occasion, I also urge the Government to do so.

Having reread the Minister’s response to the last debate on this, I did not gather from that a good, clear reason why the well-established practice is being abandoned. It is clear that the 1996 Act is well established and has worked well, and it seems strange to replace a consensual approach to a problem with an adversarial system. In my experience, adversarial systems always cost more in the end. They can also prove very unfair to those who do not have the nature or the money to embark on an adversarial fight, which can often last months and years, and who therefore decline to press their case when indeed they should be doing so. I urge the Minister to ensure that HS2 is approaching this in a sensible manner for the next phase of the development.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. It seems that the 1996 Act covers these issues, and I am very suspicious of why HS2 needs such a significant change to the provisions of that Act for its project. I am not convinced that it needs these powers. I believe that, with modest alterations, good management should be able to overcome any problems. However, one faces the classic dilemma of a specialist area in an important Act, which is that I cannot know that I am right because we have not been able to listen to various points of view other than the expert knowledge of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and it is possible that the project needs these powers. As I understand it, there are likely to be few party walls in this phase of the project. He may be right that a dispute might significantly delay the project. Hence, I am unwilling at this stage to support the amendment if there is a Division.

Belfast International Airport

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have already addressed this point. It should be pointed out that Belfast International Airport is owned and operated by VINCI Airports, which owns and operates 45 airports worldwide and is a very large company. There are various interventions that Belfast International Airport is able to avail itself of at the moment.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, there has been a lot of focus on potential disruption at ports after 1 January but very little on the impact on airports and, in particular, Belfast airport. Can the Minister explain what the Government expect the situation to be, both with and without a deal with the EU?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, conversations around a deal or otherwise are ongoing, but trade with Northern Ireland will of course continue according to the “unfettered access” under the Northern Ireland protocol. It is worth noting that Belfast International Airport is a significant freight airport, and while it suffered a 79% reduction in passengers in October, it has seen an 8% increase in freight, so that is good news.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage
Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

The distance of phase 1 of HS2, from London and Birmingham, was about 120 miles, while the distance of 2b, from Birmingham Interchange up to Leeds, is about the same. Some people might think that it goes through virgin countryside and it does not matter, but that is total rubbish. It goes through many conurbations; many people are interested in being able to use the line or improved lines that connect in with it. From what I have seen of the time it takes to prepare hybrid Bills—I am sure my noble friend Lord Adonis would agree—I think that, if you have not yet decided on a route, to publish a Bill in six months is pushing it. If the Minister says, “Well, it’s got to be done in stages and we’re not ready for the whole thing,” on this occasion I would support that. I want something done to improve the lines, but to do it all in six months without any proper consultation even having started would be a little optimistic.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we received a useful briefing from HS2 prior to this debate. The final sentences read:

“Legislation to complete the Western leg of HS2 into Manchester is expected to come forward in 2022. Extending the line to Crewe is the first step to making this happen.”


There is a total absence of any reference there to the eastern leg. Other speakers have talked about the regenerative impact of HS2. This has already been demonstrated in Birmingham despite the line not being built yet. It is already a hotspot for inward investment, with high-quality jobs being created in major banks—HSBC and Deutsche Bank—as well as, importantly, in Jacobs Engineering.

The Government’s election rhetoric on levelling up won them seats in the north-east, and HS2 is an essential part of that. It is integral to delivering the plans of both the northern powerhouse and the Midlands engine. That means the whole of HS2; as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, without the eastern leg it will be unable to improve the transport links across the country and to create new freight capacity.

This is all essential if the Government are to be able to decarbonise our transport system. Much more important than higher speeds is the capacity that HS2 will unlock. Only a very small percentage of commuters currently use rail in the north of England. For example, 7% of people commuting from Liverpool to Manchester, and 3% going from Hull to Sheffield, use rail. That is because services are slow and unreliable. HS2 will provide additional capacity on existing lines by freeing them up to enable faster, modern trains to provide many more services. Trains are the most carbon-efficient mass transport system available.

Existing rail freight services are far too slow. Freight is the most challenging part of our transport system to decarbonise. Road freight accounts for 5% of our nation’s CO₂ emissions, so it has to be tackled. For example, it now takes 11 hours to send freight by rail from Liverpool to Selby, for the Drax power station. That is an unrealistically long time. It takes only three hours to take the same load by road. The Government cannot hope to improve productivity and create well-paid jobs in the north, while meeting our climate commitments, without revolutionising the infrastructure of the region. HS2 is the key to that—freeing us from reliance on a 19^th-century rail system that is literally buckling under the strain.

What we need from the Minister today is a firm and unequivocal commitment to the eastern leg, with a timeframe that puts it on an equal footing with the west. We will be listening very carefully but, much more importantly, the people of the north-east are listening. They will not forgive, or forget, any attempt to renege on election promises. As noble Lords have made clear this afternoon, the case for the eastern leg has been made perfectly over the years. It is now well overdue for work to start on the details of this project.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

I do not intend to repeat all the points made so persuasively by my noble friend Lord Adonis and other noble Lords in support of his amendment. The Conservative Party manifesto for the 2019 election said that:

“HS2 is a great ambition”,


but, as we all know, great ambitions are not always realised in full. The manifesto went on to say that HS2,

“will now cost at least £81 billion and will not reach Leeds or Manchester until as late as 2040.”

Continuing, the manifesto said that:

“We will consider the findings of the Oakervee review into costs and timings and work with leaders of the Midlands and the North to decide the optimal outcome”.


In other words, there was no unambiguous commitment in the 2019 manifesto to complete HS2 via the East Midlands to Leeds, since the “optimal outcome” was dependent on government consideration of the findings of the Oakervee review into costs and timings.

In Committee, my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe invited the Government to commit to building HS2 phase 2b to Leeds in full. In reply, the Government said that:

“Plans to provide the benefits of high-speed rail to the east Midlands, Yorkshire and beyond will be confirmed following the publication of the integrated rail plan”,


and,

“that a properly connected line from the Midlands up to the North will be a key part of the HS2 project.”—[Official Report, 9/11/20; col. GC 351.]

As we know, that reply was not a commitment to build HS2 phase 2b via the East Midlands to Leeds in full.

It would thus be helpful if the Government could clarify in their response what the phrases,

“plans to provide the benefits of high-speed rail to the east Midlands, Yorkshire and beyond”,

and,

“a properly connected line from the Midlands up to the North will be a key part of the HS2 project”,

actually mean. Do they mean that the Government are committed to building HS2 phase 2b via the East Midlands to Leeds in full, or do they mean not that the high-speed line will be built the whole way from Birmingham via the East Midlands to Leeds but that HS2 services could, for all or part of that journey, run over existing routes calling at existing stations?

The indications are that the Government are either looking to abandon or scale back the eastern leg of HS2 through to Leeds or, at best, seriously delay its construction and completion. The lack of a clear commitment to the HS2 project in full calls into question the Government’s declared commitment to levelling up, since the eastern leg is just as vital as the delivery of the western leg. Levelling up cannot just mean levelling up the north-west and the West Midlands. It is just as vital to communities in the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber and the north-east. Indeed, only proceeding with the western leg would leave the cities and areas that would have been served by the eastern leg at a disadvantage.

The Government now have the opportunity to put to rest any concerns over their commitment to the eastern leg by saying, in their response today, that they are committed to the construction and bringing into operation of HS2 phase 2b to Leeds via the East Midlands in full, and giving the date by which they intend it will be completed. The Government can also accept the terms of this amendment. We will now have to see if they intend to take that opportunity. It will be for my noble friend Lord Adonis to decide whether he is satisfied with the Government’s response but, if he does decide to call for a vote, we will be supporting him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have little to add on this amendment, except to say that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, which call for investigating the possibility of the railways as a means of getting workers to HS2 sites, are well worth considering. I hope the Minister will respond positively to them.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I raised in Committee the issue of burial grounds and monuments, and the way in which they are dealt with. I made it clear that mine was a probing amendment, and that my interest was in ensuring that there was encouragement for really good practice in this context. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Randall, has taken the opportunity to take the issue further, because undoubtedly the modern, environmentally friendly, way of creating a memorial frequently includes trees. I shall listen carefully to the reassurances that I hope the Minister will be able to give us.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have little to say on these amendments, other than to make a general comment on the subject of burial grounds and so on. It seems to me that the intent in HS2 Phase 2a Information Paper: Burial grounds is appropriate. There are some useful words about how things should go ahead, and it says:

“Any human remains affected by the Proposed Scheme will be treated with all due dignity, respect and care.”


As ever, with the relationships between HS2 and the wider community, the whole issue is a cultural one. If, working within these guidelines, HS2 is constantly positive in seeking solutions, there will be no problems. But if it hides behind officialdom, there may be problems. I would be grateful if the Minister could give us some indication of how the Government will hold HS2 to account with regard to the tone and culture of the relationship between it, the wider public and, in particular, the representatives of the public in this sensitive area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an interesting amendment. I shall just concentrate a very few remarks on proposed new subsection (2)(c) and (d). The first thing to say is that I do not think that anybody is serious in expecting them to build extra stations on phase 2a. Crewe is a very good junction and it must involve, possibly on other lines, building extra stations if it can be justified.

As part of the Oakervee review, I also, with the team, visited Crewe. I think the Select Committee went there as well. It brings into focus the fact that the Select Committee quite rightly looks at local things and people’s concerns, but who looks at what one might call the regional connectivity? I will give one example. We were sitting in the office in Crewe talking to HS2 and Network Rail representatives and it became quite clear that the design of HS2 to go through Crewe station was effectively preventing even an hourly service from Shrewsbury through Crewe to Manchester because of the point layout. I got the impression that HS2 did not care at all about that. Network Rail said, “You’re stopping us doing even what we can do at the moment with difficulty”. I do not know where that should be discussed, or whether it should be in a report, as the amendment proposes, but there ought to be an opportunity to discuss it. It is not a matter for petitioning, but I will be interested to hear what the Minister will say about it.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 4 because HS2 has come in for criticism about the quality of its consultation with local residents. Although it has impressed on us how much it has improved, I am sure that there is probably still some way to go. I am particularly concerned about the impact of the construction process, which may not be obvious to either HS2, or to local residents, before it starts. Construction of a project of this size and this kind is not a transitory process, in that it will impact on some communities for years. It is not like your next-door neighbour building an extension, where it is bad for a few months but then the disturbance goes away. This could last for years.

The amendment specifies traffic and the impact on the environment. Although both issues were raised in Committee, we still need some answers from the Minister. We have heard a lot, and will hear more today, about the impact on ancient woodlands, but other aspects of the environment are of equal importance, for example wetlands. The amendment also includes an important reference to new links to HS2 itself. I am not suggesting—it never occurred to me—that that means stopping on the way, as that obviously would be a very slow way to run a high-speed railway. Treated properly, HS2 will be the catalyst for a widespread upgrading of our existing Victorian railways. I was taking this amendment to mean improving links into HS2, to the stations that have been specified.

Amendment 8, which is in my name, is also in this group. It specifically refers to that aspect. It provides for an annual review of connectivity in our rail network and the impact of HS2 on that. I have already spoken this afternoon about the importance of using HS2 to unlock capacity to allow more intensive use of existing lines by commuters and for other local journeys, as well as to provide room for the transfer of freight from road to rail. The northern powerhouse and Midlands Connect rely on that. I suggest that progress on this needs annual review because the Government—any Government—need to be kept under pressure to maintain the momentum for change. The review is to be laid before Parliament within six months of its completion. Once again, that is to avoid backsliding.

There is also a provision so that the impact of the pandemic is taken into account. This is specifically to address the impact on demand for public transport, which has clearly fallen sharply in recent months, largely because people are worried about safety, although public transport providers have made huge efforts to ensure it is safe. However, demand will return, albeit maybe in a different pattern which providers will have to adapt to. Anyone who thinks that we will suddenly not want to travel has misjudged human nature and failed to take the lessons of history. I am keen that above all we encourage people back to travelling by rail. There has been a lot of discussion about building back better, and part of that is ensuring that new services are fit for the future, and ensuring that HS2 is the catalyst to enable future UK Governments to deliver on climate objectives, by taking cars and lorries off the road and replacing planes with trains.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I will address these amendments, how they are worded and what their consequences would be, because I am not sure that that fully came out in this debate, which was much shorter than I had anticipated. When I first looked at this speaking note on Saturday, it had 2,585 words. This is not to suggest that I intend to bore your Lordships into submission but to illustrate that there has been a huge amount of consultation, and that there is a huge amount to say about it.

The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, would mandate just one more round—like one more wafer-thin mint—as if it might yield what? Would it yield different results to previous consultations, when works have not even started, and impacts are not yet being felt? I agree with what I think lies behind the noble Lord’s amendment: that HS2 Ltd must engage with and consult local communities, not once, not twice, but on an ongoing basis, before, during and after the project. I have condensed 20 minutes of words into something slightly less, but I warn noble Lords that there is still a fair amount to say.

I have a huge amount of respect for the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who is exceptional in his diligence and one of the hardest-working Members of your Lordships’ House, but I was saddened that just a few examples were being used to show that the entire consultation process therefore has not worked. That is not the case. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, also said something like, “Well, I hear reports that consultation hasn’t gone brilliantly.” If there are specific concerns about lack of engagement, I encourage any noble Lord to bring them forward to Minister Stephenson. We will build this project successfully if engagement happens before, during and after the project. We have a way forward, and therefore the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is not needed; nor would it even be helpful to the progress of the Bill, I am afraid.

Ten years ago, there were consultations that led to the initial identification of the preferred route. Five years ago, further consultation carved out phase 2a as a separate project to bring the benefits of HS2 to Crewe sooner. That led to the further round of consultations. In spring 2016, HS2 Ltd undertook a consultation on the scope and methodology to be used in producing phase 2a’s environmental statement and equalities impact assessment. In September 2016, HS2 Ltd launched consultations on the phase 2a working draft environmental statement and the working draft equalities impact assessment. At the same time, the phase 2a design refinement consultation was conducted by the Department for Transport. These consultations were open to everyone, including the people of Staffordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire, and were publicised widely by letter, email, notices in local newspapers, posters in doctors’ surgeries and libraries, press releases to local media and, of course, social media.

The consultations included information about the impacts on the natural environment, including ancient woodland. They included information about construction routes and road diversions and closures, so that people could understand what might happen to their local roads and transport infrastructure. They included alternative options and asked for feedback. The consultations closed in November 2016. The responses were collated, taken into account and, where relevant, design changes were made. The report on all that work was published alongside the deposit of the phase 2a Bill in July 2017. It took over a year, but that is not all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, fighting climate change is a giant carbon calculation, and HS2 is firmly on the plus side. Rail is the most carbon-efficient form of transport and, in 2017, the transport sector overtook the energy sector as the UK’s largest carbon emitter. This debate has produced some extremely interesting and very expert speeches. They have revealed the complexity of the issue because those who know a great deal about these issues do not agree with each other.

On Amendment 5, HS2 itself claims that more than 33 square kilometres of new and existing wildlife habitat will be created or improved. That is a 30% addition compared with what is there now, and I hope the Minister can reassure us that this is accurate, that HS2’s claims are accurate and that there will be a substantial biodiversity net gain.

Turning now to Amendment 6, I read the committee’s report with great interest, and I have just re-read it while listening to this debate. HS2 says that 0.005% of ancient woodland will be affected by its project. As the committee noted, “ancient woodland” does not necessarily mean old trees, but rather that woodland has existed for a long time on that patch of ground. Some such areas were replanted after the two wars and were not necessarily planted with native species, so ancient woodland is not an amorphous mass of very important sites. There are varying levels of importance. Obviously, any loss is significant in terms of ecological diversity, but it is worth pointing out that new, young trees are more efficient and vigorous in dealing with climate change. Avoiding ancient woodland entirely would mean more tunnelling, which produces spoil which, in itself, destroys habitats when it has to be dumped somewhere. The tunnelling process creates noise and local disruption for residents and in itself creates carbon because of the vehicles that are dumping the spoil. It is not quite as simple as it sounds.

I have some sympathy for Amendment 7 and Amendment 11. It is, however, as noble Lords have capably illustrated, on an extremely complex subject. Trees sourced from the UK are most likely to succeed, and they avoid the importation of diseases, which have repeatedly caused serious problems in our landscape. Of course, diseases also come to this country through other routes. I hope the Minister can reassure us that this work is being undertaken by HS2 and will continue to be.

Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) (Amendment) Order 2020

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, once again we are updating SIs that we dealt with last year. It is worth remembering that at that time the concept of lorry drivers needing a Kent passport was shocking, and that when the Minister was asked whether the timing of the sunset clause was sufficient, we were strongly reassured that it was generous. The first of these SIs extends the sunset clause from 31 December this year to 31 October 2021, so I ask the Minister again if she is convinced that this new date will be long enough. Are the Government convinced that they will not need Operation Brock after next October?

I am comparing the situation in Kent with the crisis the Government are facing in providing lorry parking for Holyhead. It was clear from an Answer given yesterday to a Question that there is no hope of a lorry park near Holyhead being up and running before July. In the meantime, customs clearance processes will take place in Warrington and Birmingham, over 100 miles from the port. This is obviously an open invitation for all manner of evasion of export and import controls. I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, about the serious disruption in north Wales, although the Reasonable Worst Case Scenario the Government produced seemed to dismiss this entirely.

In September, the Cabinet Office issued a Reasonable Worst Case Scenario for Borders at the End of the Transition Period, as I have just said. That estimated that 30% to 50% of trucks might not be border ready on 1 January and that this would lead to daily queues of 7,000 HGVs in Kent by February. I am assuming that we are now in that worst-case scenario, as we are 36 days away from the end of the transition and there is no deal. We had a taste of this earlier this week when the French border authorities trialled the new passport checks that will be required and five-mile queues of lorries developed on the M20.

So freight operators are being told to prepare for the change, and their very loud response is to ask exactly what kind of change they are supposed to prepare for. A spokesperson for Logistics UK has quite reasonably pointed out that the Government’s own hauliers’ handbook is incomplete, and press reports suggest it is pretty incomprehensible. As a large percentage of the hauliers crossing via the channel ports are not British, if it is to work, it also needs translation. Do the Government intend to translate the handbook, and when do they expect it to be ready? I am conscious that I have also asked this as a Written Question but I had not received a reply by the start of the debate. I apologise if I have received a reply since it started.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, I will take this opportunity to ask about the state of preparedness of the government IT systems for the new border controls and what progress has been made on recruiting the additional staff required. How near the target are the Government?

These orders make some additional amendments to the 2019 orders as well. They modify the approved routes that an HCV can take to the ports and require them to have a Kent access permit when using the local road network. That is understandable as communities in Kent have suffered considerable disruption and inconvenience in the past when there have been short-term problems. The disruption we are discussing here will probably last for some months, of course, and it could possibly be semi-permanent. It will certainly cause supply problems, as an HCV held up on the journey out will almost certainly be delayed on its return, along with its load. So it is regrettable that this is all so close to the wire.

There is an additional specific exception in the Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 3) (Amendment) Order 2020, which goes along with these two, allowing hauliers from east Kent and Faversham to use local roads. Was this the only request for such an exception? As I said when we discussed this issue before, there are bound to be hold-ups for other local commercial traffic simply trying to go about its daily business in Kent.

Retailers and hauliers are particularly concerned about perishable goods, so these orders allow priority to hauliers carrying highly perishable goods, live animals and goods which

“would give rise to a disproportionate economic impact on a geographical area of the UK.”

The first two are clear but I wonder whether the Minister can help me with the very strange phraseology of the third exception. It strikes me that this could apply to a very large proportion of lorries. What about steel from south Wales or tinned peas from Lincolnshire? Each of those is very important to the local economy. Forgive me for being sceptical, but this sounds like a last-minute addition put in by a Minister to help a friend.

There is to be a prioritisation site at Ebbsfleet. Can the Minister tell us exactly how that will work? I am concerned that the criterion is that a lorry has to be carrying a single load of fresh or live seafood. Surely the issues about freshness and welfare of animals apply just the same if you have other items in your load as well?

The big pharmaceutical companies are concerned that supplies of medicines and vaccines could well be interrupted and delayed. Can the Minister explain why are they not included as a priority category? The Government apparently do not hold strategic food reserves. Can the Minister tell us what discussions the Department for Transport has had with other departments about shortages of strategic supplies and how they might be minimised?

Finally, I take issue with the Explanatory Memorandum’s impact assessment, which must surely go down in history as stretching credibility until it snaps. It says:

“There is no significant, lasting impact on business … the Check an HGV service will have a limited burden on industry once familiarised”.


That refers to a required set of documentation that will, according to Sainsbury’s, cost thousands of pounds per load. It continues:

“There is no … significant … impact on the public sector.”


Tell that to the police or the NHS or the local councils concerned—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am sorry, I have to remind the noble Baroness of the time limit for contributions in this debate.

Railways: Fare Structures

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are considering plans for any increase in regulated rail fares. The taxpayer has provided huge support to train services during the pandemic; passengers must also contribute to maintaining and improving the service, and any fare rises will fund crucial investment.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us whether the rumours are true that next year’s fare increase will not just be RPI, at 1.6%, but RPI plus 1%, so a 2.6% increase? Is that being considered by the Government, and does the Minister accept that rail passengers in Britain already pay fares that are very much higher than in the rest of Europe and really should not be expected, at this difficult time, to carry an extra burden?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure that the noble Baroness will understand that I could not possibly comment on rumours, but I refer her to the answer that I just gave to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, about the Government’s plans for any increase in regulated rail fares.

Road Vehicles and Non-Road Mobile Machinery (Type-Approval) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I had some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, when he started with the words “Here we are again”. These SIs are part of the mountain of paperwork which is part of the bureaucratic nightmare we have created for ourselves in leaving the EU. Those of us who deal with transport issues have been patiently working our way through a very large number of SIs to make it possible for us to leave the EU while, apparently, keeping everything exactly the same.

We thought that we had completed the first of these SIs last year. We had gone through it and replaced “EU Commission” with “Secretary of State”, but, thanks to the Northern Ireland protocol, it now has to be amended again to allow for the continued operation of vehicle and engine type approval schemes in Northern Ireland based on EU rules. Ironically, they will be operated by the UK approval authority, the Vehicle Certification Agency, which will also operate separate Great Britain-type approval schemes. This is a detailed first glimpse at the complexity of trying to operate two different systems across the UK. The SI allows Northern Ireland manufacturers to access the Northern Ireland market by using either an EU-type approval or a Northern Ireland approval issued by the VCA.

I conclude that all that means is that Great Britain as a whole will shadow EU standards; otherwise, Northern Ireland will, in practice, become a separate market, with much stronger links to the EU than to Great Britain. In addition, the Explanatory Memorandum confirms that, as standards are identical, Northern Ireland manufacturers will be able to sell and register vehicles in Great Britain using either an EU or a Northern Ireland VCA approval. We can begin to see from the discussion of the issues that the operators of big businesses such as Sainsbury’s and Tesco, in a very different field, are expressing concern about how the standard system will operate in the future.

However, there is, just for once, a plan to diverge from EU standards. As the Minister mentioned, there will no longer be a maximum vehicle height of four metres. It appears from the Explanatory Memorandum that we already have a lot of vehicles higher than that, but, of course, not having to adhere to that standard will mean that there will be a general tendency for vehicles to get higher.

A consultation was held. Were Network Rail or any of the train operating companies consulted on removing the four-metre limit on vehicles? I ask that because there are increasingly frequent collisions with bridges, which have a hugely disruptive effect on the railways. I know that Network Rail and the train operating companies are extremely concerned about the frequency with which these collisions occur. Almost all of them occur because someone tries to drive a vehicle that is too high under a bridge that will not accommodate it. Therefore, this is of great relevance to our railways. I hope that they were included in the consultation, or at least that the Government have informed them of this.

I now move to the issue of CO₂ emission performance standards. These regulations are designed to ensure that the Government can continue to regulate CO₂ emissions for newly registered cars and vans. As other noble Lords have made clear, CO₂ emission standards have been the subject of huge controversy and could undoubtedly be measured a great deal more realistically. The move to on-the-road standards is important. This SI deals with the change in the way that manufacturers apply exemptions. It is pretty obvious that if you have too many exemptions, the standards will not be as effective as they should be.

I understand entirely the practical issue, which the Minister explained to us, that the system will not work at the end of this year, so the UK will have to give each manufacturer an individual threshold based on their EU shares of sales and registrations in the UK, but newly registered vehicles that are moved permanently to Northern Ireland or elsewhere outside Great Britain are removed from Great Britain’s emissions target. That leads me to ask the Minister: how will the emissions target for Northern Ireland be set? We will have a target for Great Britain, but obviously there needs to be a target for Northern Ireland. It also leads me to say to the Minister that this is a genuine opportunity for Britain to do better, to set higher standards than the EU. It is our chance to be different and to move faster.

I was delighted to hear suggestions that the Government are now committed to the 2030 target for the end of petrol and diesel vehicles. Other noble Lords have referred to that. I agree with their questions, so I will not repeat them in detail, about what plans the Government have to ensure that they take forward this obligation very swiftly. If it is going to work, it has to be adopted quickly.

On the final SI, I have a couple of questions relating to heavy duty vehicle emission standards. First, these regulations apply to the whole of the UK. I read the notes very carefully. Why does Northern Ireland not need a separate system as it has in the previous two SIs? Secondly, can the Minister clarify what the impact of the change of dates for the reporting year will be? The reporting year will move from the end of February to the end of September. Will the Minister explain why and how that extra six months will be taken into account?

I am pleased to see that the consultation has led to a change in approach from the Government on the number of data fields to be reported—in other words, I am pleased to see that the Government have responded to the consultation. However, the respondents suggested a study of the UK fleet as a comparator to the EU baseline. Will that study be taken forward?

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 2nd sitting : House of Lords & Committee: 2nd sitting
Thursday 12th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Framlingham (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendments 6 and 8. Amendment 6 deals with the question of peer review, which is absolutely essential. In my remarks to the Committee last Tuesday, I explained that one of the great shortcomings of the HS2 project from the very beginning has been the complete unwillingness of the responsible Ministers to listen to the best and soundest advice coming from outside their department. Amendment 6 would allow these qualified railway experts to examine all aspects of the project in an unbiased way and give the Government the benefit of their advice. It must, of course, be totally independent of Government, HS2 and any company or individual linked to HS2.

We are all aware of the stories of massive financial and time overruns with aircraft carriers, and nuclear power station building disasters. With HS2, “you ain’t seen nothing yet.” I remind the Committee that we are talking about £106 billion to date—probably £150 billion —and the sum is confidently forecast by reliable sources to reach £200 billion. Surely it makes sense for us to take steps to put in place the strongest possible oversight; peer review will do just that.

Amendment 8, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, recommends the publishing of a cost-benefit analysis of this project. I totally agree with that, although I fear that we are locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. This fundamental exercise should be undertaken, of course—in private business it invariably is—before any decision to go ahead is made. Perhaps it was; perhaps the Minister will tell us, and perhaps we can see it. It is quite simple to do: you make a list of all the costs and a list of all the benefits. You put one on one side of the scales and the other on the other, and I have done just that.

I chose benefits first and it is quite a short list: high speed, capacity and jobs. I turn first to high speed. For all sorts of reasons, the promoters of the scheme no longer cite this as an important aspect of it, so this cannot go on the benefit side, even though high speed is what it says on the tin and that is how the idea was originally sold to the Government. For a whole variety of reasons, it is no longer top priority. I do not know all the reasons: I understand that certain aspects of the line—embankments, tunnels, et cetera—would not cope with the proposed speed; and energy costs were also an issue. Therefore, it is no longer a high-speed train in the accepted sense, and we cannot put that on the benefit side of the scales.

Lastly, we come to jobs. Jobs are the proponents’ fallback position, guaranteed to sway faltering Ministers. Obviously, any extra jobs are not just welcome but, in these difficult times, invaluable, although it must be remembered that this was sold as part of the deal long before Covid arrived. It is my view that however much we need jobs, they should not be used as a reason to proceed with a project that is manifestly nonsensical.

If you spent this amount of money on regional railways, improving links from Liverpool to Hull or relieving commuter services in the north and in and out of London, you would produce just as many jobs, spread throughout the country—and, at the end, unlike HS2, you would have something really worth while to show for it. So the jobs argument does not work and that leaves precious little to go on the benefit side of the scales.

Let us look at the costs to the taxpayer: a minimum £106 billion and almost certainly considerably more—all those vital projects which are having to take second place to HS2, we could probably rebuild every hospital in the country for this kind of money; massive, irreparable damage to our environment through a huge swathe of the country; damage to the thousands of people whose lives, homes and businesses have been affected; and massive distrust in the Government’s ability to build anything. I mark it: benefits, precious little; costs, enormous. How did we get into this mess? I truly believe that this will prove to be the most monumental infrastructural and environmental blunder of all time.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, on the issues he has raised in relation to HS2. He dismisses the speed issue, whereas every piece of research reveals that journey times are key to people deciding whether or not to use rail; so journey times need improving.

On capacity, it is the case that existing lines are full. Capacity is about not just how many people are on a train but how many trains per hour there are on the railway, and we badly need extra capacity in order to move the short-distance travellers off the long-distance lines and to allow freight to use the existing long-distance lines to provide enough capacity for all the freight that needs to go on the railways nowadays in order to save our planet. At the moment very low percentages of people in the Midlands and the north choose to travel by train. That is because of the capacity issue—because of problems with the service. We owe it to them to improve the options for them and to make it possible for them to travel in an environmentally friendly manner.

HS2 has often been its own worst enemy. On our Benches there is firm support for the project, as I have made clear today and in many previous debates. But that does not mean that we are not critical of the way the project has been managed so far. The Oakervee report was designed to review the project and point the way forward but that way needs to be a lot less scrappy than the process so far.

I have a general observation to make about this group of amendments, particularly Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. It is long past time for our approach to major infrastructure developments to be fundamentally rethought. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Liddle: for decades we have proved incapable of making clear strategic decisions, costing them realistically and managing them effectively. The National Infrastructure Commission was supposed to give us the longer view required, which short-term government horizons inevitably fail to provide. However, we still do not have a system that works in a modern democratic economy.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

11: After Clause 58, insert the following new Clause—
“Connectivity
(1) The Secretary of State must conduct an annual review of the impact of this Act on the connectivity of the UK Rail Network. (2) The review under subsection (1) must make reference to—(a) the impact of HS2 on connectivity in relation to—(i) the existing rail network, and(ii) new parts of the network constructed during the process of HS2;(b) future connectivity planning.(3) The review under subsection (1) may make reference to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on future connectivity planning.(4) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the review under subsection (1) before both Houses of Parliament within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, and each calendar year thereafter until 2035.”

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 11, I shall refer to the amendment in the name of the Labour Party.

The finances of HS2 do not stack up, unless it is used as a spine from which to hang a network of substantial improvements to existing rail services and a programme of new lines and stations. Amendment 11 in my name is designed to cover this by way of an annual review by the Secretary of State. The frequency is intended to keep the process of future planning under constant review because, for the sake of efficiency and cost effectiveness, it is essential that there is a steady flow of work for the rail manufacturing and construction industry. The Department for Transport needs to move away from the cumbersome feast-and-famine approach to railway building which has so hampered the industry in recent years.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, queried whether the eastern leg of HS2, phase 2b, would be built following the Minister’s confirmation in our previous debate on Monday that Bills for the eastern and the western legs will be separated. I invite the Minister to tell us whether there is any truth in the rumour that the National Infrastructure Commission, which is developing the strategic rail plan, might recommend that HS2 as a new line should be built only from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway, and that thereafter trains would join the existing main line to Nottingham, Derby and Leeds. Even if that line is improved and electrified, this would mean that there will be no gains in capacity and speed, and it will mean the loss of the economic development potential of HS2 which we have seen so well illustrated already in Birmingham. If there is truth in this rumour, it illustrates the UK’s fatal flaw: our failure to raise our eyes to the horizon, to build for the future, to plan for the future.

The work of Midlands Connect, for example, and its Midlands Engine Rail plans illustrates perfectly the way in which HS2 can and should be used to stimulate major improvements in rail services across the area and, beyond that, further to the north. It has planned three packages of improvements. Package West uses phases 1 and 2a as well as capacity in existing lines which is released by HS2. It would enable 20 more trains per hour into and out of Birmingham Moor Street station, improving links with the south-west, Wales and the east Midlands. There are plans to improve connectivity at Birmingham Airport and for faster trains on existing lines between Birmingham and Manchester. Then there is its Package East: a multimodal strategy to connect towns across the region into the HS2 hub station at Toton. But possibly most significant is its Package Connect. It has plans to enhance the east-west connection between, for example, Crewe and Derby, Nottingham and Lincoln, and so on, significantly improving journey times in an area where the percentage of commuters who travel by rail is woefully low. Why is that? It is largely because the speeds of the trains—the services at the moment—are low, and the services are infrequent. I must also not forget the importance of freight. Putting more goods on to the railways is important, and essential to a green future and to avoiding climate change.

The single unifying factor in all these plans is that they all depend in some way on the impetus that HS2 will provide. A high-speed long-distance railway leads to improved services for commuters, shoppers and leisure travellers as well as additional capacity for freight. Despite the falling numbers of rail passengers, and despite the fact that the pandemic has made us think again, there is every reason to believe that people will return to travel in the future. Indeed, they already have. Already, we are at roughly 100% of pre-pandemic road traffic levels, at a time when only 59% of us are back in work in our offices. If we were all to go back to work as we have done before, that would be an additional 2.7 million cars and other vehicles on the road per day. It is simply not possible and sustainable in terms of congestion, let alone the impact on air quality and emissions. For a green future we have to plan for a modern, fast and efficient railway.

I remind the Minister that in the general election last year the Government received a huge boost from electors in the Midlands and the north, who put their faith in the Government’s levelling-up rhetoric. Now the Government have to deliver on that, and HS2 is a key part of that deal. But as I hope I have illustrated, HS2 must be used as a catalyst for much more—for much greater change—and the north of England and the Midlands will have a pretty dim view of government promises if that does not go ahead as planned. I beg to move.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has made some powerful points. She has also teed me up splendidly because her amendment raises the issue of connectivity. I can see that the Minister is much looking forward to the fact that I am going to speak again about the connectivity of the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east, which is imminently threatened by this review and potential cancellation of HS2 east.

Lest noble Lords think that I am unnecessarily alarmist on this, I am doing my public duty to see that this catastrophic and historic error is not made. Every time I raise this issue and engage with stakeholders, my concerns become greater. Since I made my remarks on Monday I have had a number of private representations, which it would not be proper for me to reveal because I gave non-disclosure agreements in response to those, but I have also had a very significant public representation —which I have forwarded to the Minister to give her an opportunity to respond in her reply—from Professor David Rae, who is a professor of enterprise at De Montfort University in Leicester, an area which would gain enormously from the benefits of HS2 east. Perhaps I may read the key part of his letter to the Grand Committee, because it specifically responds to the points I raised in our previous sitting on Monday. He writes:

“Consistent with your Twitter messages”—


I tweet summaries of my speeches because they are far too long to inflict on the public at their full extent—

“regarding the threatened axing of the HS2 Eastern link, a well-informed source tells me that the National Infrastructure Commission, which is preparing the Rail Plan”—

the one that the noble Baroness keeps referring to, and which she rightly says I do not like because it is the disguise for delaying or cancelling it—

“which will recommend the future investment, is more likely to propose that HS2 East is only built from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway (EMP) and there to join the existing Midland Mainline and follow existing … lines to Nottingham, Derby and North to Leeds. Even if this is approved, there are multiple negative effects. In terms of rail, there will be few gains in either rail capacity or speed, and none north of EMP. In effect the Leeds and Northern HS2 link would be via HS2 to Manchester and thence via Transpennine Rail”.

I should say in parenthesis that that means that the east Midlands would gain very little out of HS2 and the journey times to Leeds and the north-east would be significantly delayed because all of their HS2 journeys would need to go via Manchester. That presupposes that a tunnel is built under the Pennines at high speed to take the line from Manchester to Leeds, which itself, as I know from having looked at the costings, is a hugely expensive and very problematic project.

Professor David Rae continues:

“There is also a large economic development loss to the region. As you will know, the development of the Toton ‘Garden of Innovation’ new community and innovation district around the HS2 station—


the junction station between Derby and Nottingham that is proposed as part of HS2 east—

“is of strategic importance to the region and is one to which the Councils in Derby, Nottingham and respective Counties as well as the Local Enterprise Partnership … are committed. This is crucial to grow the high-value and high-skill capacity of the region, predicated on HS2, and if lost will set back the region’s economic development by 5 years. We simply cannot afford this loss, set against the effects of COVID-19 job losses and anticipated Brexit impacts.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lady Gardner for joining the Committee and sharing her thoughts with us. I am pleased that she supports HS2. She raised some issues about Birmingham, and I do not have the information to hand. I will write to her with further information about connectivity and the issues she raised about access to Birmingham Curzon Street.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who participated in this short debate, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for the impetus he has provided to us all with his points about the eastern leg and the whole issue of connectivity. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, pointed out, the importance of getting across the Pennines is one of the main points here. He also emphasised the demand for shorter-distance travel, which, of course, is what is freed up on existing lines by the building of HS2.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, deals specifically with issues in Shropshire and Staffordshire, and we might return to that later in the debate on road transport. There is clearly a very important need to improve transport links there. I say to the Minister, who said she wanted to stick to phase 2a: some of the examples I gave her from the Midlands Engine deal specifically with phase 1 and phase 2a and initiatives that flow from the existence of phase 2a. I am disappointed that she has failed to address in detail the point of my amendment, which is to force continued planning on HS2 as we move forward, and to integrate HS2 with other infrastructure developments in the areas through which it passes.

The rail industry is crying out for a smooth flow of future planning. It does not prosper from the stop-start approach, and there is a need for a smooth process in order to maintain skills and capacity within the industry generally. Having said that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 11 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I have heard many noble Lords say that there is not a problem because the Select Committee, if it received complaints, dealt with them. I suspect that, if there was a problem and people got as far as petitioning about it, the committee would have made sure as best it could that it was solved, and that is very good.

However, I have also heard many examples of people not being paid, and some landowners who have found that HS2 was trespassing on their land, and maybe doing damage to it, not being paid for months or even years. That has been a common thing—and I suspect that both examples are equally valid. The real issue here is that, if there is no problem, the amendment does no harm to anybody. If there is a problem, it will encourage HS2 to behave, and pay for what it intends to occupy permanently or temporarily.

I suspect that the issue may have been something to do with the timing: the Select Committee sat for a certain time and the HS2 Bill has been around for several years. In the intervening period, what do people do if they suffer hardship? There is a lot of evidence, which I think that the Committee has heard before, that the budget that HS2 was given for land purchase by the department, and which the department was given by the Treasury, was woefully inadequate—probably about 50% of what was needed. That is probably one of the reasons, apart from having too much work to do, and maybe incompetence—I do not know—for late payments. HS2 and Ministers will have to do all in their powers to make sure that that it does not happen again for the next phase or two. There may be lessons to learn. In the meantime, I cannot see what is wrong with the amendment, which might incentivise HS2 and other businesses to behave in what is normally thought of as a normal business relationship.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for giving us the opportunity to discuss this issue. In a way, this amendment goes alongside the previous one on NDAs. You wonder why the use of NDAs is apparently routine in an organisation on this scale. The problem with routine use of NDAs is that, while no individual one is possibly downright wrong, the whole oversight of the scheme gets suppressed. Therefore, it becomes difficult to see those early symptoms of things not working as they should.

We must also bear in mind that it is very easy for an organisation the size of HS2 to look overbearing, unfeeling and unreasonable. It is therefore very much in everyone’s interests that it operates as a good business with the highest ethical standards. It is, after all, a programme and a business for the future, producing something that will be at least 10 years in the making. Therefore, it needs to have modern, responsible business practices.

I suggest to the Minister that, while I am sure she will not want to accept the amendment, it would be an idea for the business practices of HS2 to be given a good look, with this amendment and issue in mind.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

I will be brief. As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, this amendment is about the attitude and approach of HS2. I tried to make a note of some of the things that he referred to. I think he referred to a highly impersonal manner and to the level of control to ensure uniformity of approach when not all cases are similar. I think he referred to the shifting of the burden of proof, to the delaying of payments and to the challenging of decisions line by line. I think he also referred to how it seemed that the Treasury put pressure on the DfT, which put pressure on HS2 regarding finances, and to how eventually all that financial pressure being applied was reflected down the line in the approach to claimants.

I will listen with interest to what the Minister says in reply and, in particular, to whether she accepts that there is validity in what is being said. The noble Earl clearly believes that there is, and I imagine that he is far from the only one who thinks that that is the approach of HS2. I know the Minister will take what has been said seriously. However, I hope very much that she will be able to offer some words that will at least indicate that she will look at the issue and seek to address the concerns raised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the road traffic issue is one of the thorniest problems associated with this project. When you look at many of the objections or petitions to the Committee, they are actually objections to the building process. That is not surprising: people do not want heavy traffic going past their door when they are not used to it. On the one hand, of course, residents and environmental groups have pressed for more tunnels. There are expensive lengths of tunnels planned. However, with more tunnels and long tunnels, every mile of tunnel adds greatly to the amount of site traffic, with lorries having to remove soil as well, of course, as lorries carrying heavy equipment to the site.

A series of initiatives and techniques is proposed by HS2 to mitigate the impact of the traffic. However, I fear that the use of local roads—and the M6, for example —is bound to impact on travel times and convenience for people way beyond the area close to the line of the project. Schedule 17 ensures that construction routes are submitted to local planning authorities for approval, so I have some questions for the Minister. First, the Committee’s report says in paragraph 69:

“Construction routes used by large goods vehicles over 7.5 tonnes would require the approval of the local highway authority, except where they were using motorways or trunk roads and access to compounds with less than 24 two-way trips per day”.


That is 48 HGVs rolling past your window on a daily basis, which may not make much difference if you are on a major A road but would make a huge difference if you were on a quiet back road. Is this exception in relation to compounds, of the 24 two-way trips a day, a standard provision in construction contracts of this sort?

Secondly, given that it is the local planning authority that will make the decision on routes like this, what happens if the local planning authority withholds approval and cannot reach agreement with HS2 on a reasonable alternative route? Who then decides and where does the decision go? I hope that the Minister can provide us with some answers on that.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the impact of the works on local communities is of critical importance to the Government, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for tabling his amendment to allow us to have this discussion.

The environmental statement for phase 2a runs to some 17,000 pages and, within it, there is set out in great detail the impact of the proposed scheme on local traffic levels. To manage traffic flow, the phase 2a Bill includes powers for the control of construction traffic, requiring qualifying authorities to approve the local roads to be used by large goods vehicles—and this was noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—where the number of large goods vehicles exceeds 24 trips per day, to or from a site. That is in total, yes, 48 trips, which over a 12-hour period is one every 15 minutes. The noble Baroness asked whether that was a standard provision in contracts. I shall have to write to her on that matter.

In addition, in the Bill there is a statutory duty on the nominated undertaker to have regard to the potential traffic disruption that may be caused and seek to minimise such disruption so far as reasonably practicable. I suspect that local communities will use that to make sure that action is taken, if there are measures that could be taken but which have not been taken.

As the project progresses and construction plans are finalised—and at the moment we should remember that this railway is not being built; there is no construction at all, so plans are still in development—local traffic management plans will be developed alongside these plans with local authorities, agreeing approaches to highways and public rights of way so that the impact on local communities is minimised.

Members of the public were able to petition the Bill Select Committees of both Houses. Further local mitigation measures have been introduced to the scheme to remove or reduce traffic and transport impacts on the basis of recommendations made by those Select Committees. In some cases, that included restricting and reducing construction traffic, maximising the use of rail and haul roads, and undertaking further traffic surveys.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised the village of Woore. I took some time to look at my phone and see on Google Maps where Woore is, and it is at the junction of the A51 and the A525. While I have every sympathy for those who will be impacted, because there will be an increase in traffic and construction traffic, it is not the case that at the moment they do not have any traffic going through their village, which is at the confluence of two A roads. We need to make sure that they get the sort of measures that they are expecting. My understanding is that there has been no failure of engagement with Woore and that traffic-calming measures have been offered. Perhaps there has been a mismanagement of expectation here. As construction plans are developed, traffic management plans can be developed; without them, we can have all the engagement in the world, but that will not actually achieve anything until there are construction plans to put into play.

I am sure that Minister Stephenson, when we meet him next week, will have something to say about his ongoing commitment to community engagement and how he intends to be involved with it, since it is a very important part of his work. In the meantime, I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Berkeley persuaded me to add my name to this amendment. Having listened to the debate so far, I do not owe him any favours. I suppose that we should congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, on his comprehensive knowledge of these matters. He mentioned the Crossrail Bill, which I served on. Fortunately, we did not get involved in the realms of the Party Wall etc. Act at the time, which is perhaps surprising. It also enabled my noble friend Lord Berkeley to return to another of the many other bees in his bonnet, which is the early part of HS1 between Old Oak Common and Euston. I do not think that that has taken the Committee any further forward as far as the debate is concerned.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, why was this particular schedule added to the Bill, bearing in mind the rural nature of the line that we are supposedly discussing, phase 2a of HS2? I repeat that no mention was made of any party wall difficulties during the passage of the Bill through the Select Committee. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell us how many properties he thinks will be affected by Schedule 23 if it is included in the Bill. However, it seems to me that we could be discussing the vagaries of the property world for some considerable time without taking forward the Bill that we should be discussing, which covers phase 2a of HS2.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I will not take long, but I want to say simply that when a noble Lord raises an issue of this complexity and technical detail, it deserves to be taken very seriously. While I fully realise that the issue is not really appropriate for debate in Grand Committee because it is much too technical and detailed to encompass within the form of our debates, that does not mean that it is not important. Therefore, I ask the Minister to make sure that when she has had her meeting with the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, about the issues concerned she will set out in some form the outcome of those discussions in a letter to all noble Lords who are participating in this part of the debate today.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I can only agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, because I too would value a letter that gives some explanation. I have always been rather curious about party walls when looking at buildings, and I have often wondered how the issues are sorted out. I am absolutely delighted that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and no doubt his colleagues at the time, created the Party Wall etc. Act 1996. How to overcome all the conflicting desires of the parties concerned seems to be quite a difficult concept. That legislation has lasted for 24 years and, given the number of party walls you see every day as you move around cities, it must work pretty well.

Surely the essence of taking this forward to this particular application should be to maintain the philosophy of the Act by working with what it says and making the minimum number of modifications and certainly not making modifications that would change the philosophy behind the Act and the fairness that has obviously been worked into it for it to have worked so well.

Rural Bus Services

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to improve rural bus services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are developing a national bus strategy to set out how national and local government and the private sector will come together to meet the needs of local communities, including those in rural areas. The Government have established a £20 million rural mobility fund to support demand-responsive services.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, over the last 10 years, around half of council-supported bus services have been lost. This has hit rural areas particularly badly. I am glad to hear from the Minister that the Government are taking some action on this, but do they accept that it is time to ensure that rural bus services do not disappear altogether and to look again at the deregulation arrangements introduced in 1986?

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 9th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support the principle behind this amendment. We need a clear statement from the Government endorsing the full HS2 project. Anything less would fundamentally undermine the economic and social case for HS2.

Building only phase 1, from London to Birmingham, would simply make Birmingham a suburb of London, bringing it within the commuter belt. Building only phase 2a would destroy much of the economic case for high-speed rail, because only the more southerly parts of the western route would benefit from the regenerative impact of HS2, and the possibilities for improving local rail connectivity in the Midlands and the north would be much diminished. Put all this together and HS2 becomes much more questionable as an investment.

Sums that seemed eye-watering only nine months ago seem rather less daunting now that we have experienced in recent months the short-term government expenditure necessary to save us from catastrophe. But the pandemic has proved that we now need to invest for a greener future and a more sustainable way of living, and HS2 is a vital part of that.

Reference has been made in this debate to a recent lack of passengers on the railways and other impacts of the coronavirus. We are going to move on from this; there will be a time when people get back on to the railways, and the buses. It is important that the Government encourage people to do that. Therefore, HS2 and its progress need to be part of that picture.

Nevertheless, we still have to ensure value for money, which you do not get if you abandon the full concept of HS2 in the name of cost-cutting. Instead, you destroy the economic case and undermine the environmental benefits, because you are not producing a high-speed railway that is able to compete with internal flights and long-distance car journeys. HS2 will provide additional capacity, taking long-distance passengers off existing lines and leaving spare capacity for more freight and for shorter journeys and commuter trips.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, raises the key issue of continuity. Building a railway is rather like having a mobile factory. The equipment and the skills move along the line with you as you build. Pause the process and the skilled workers disappear to other jobs and the equipment is repurposed, sold off and so on. Getting it all together again costs a lot more than just moving seamlessly on.

Behind this are the lessons of the electrification of the Great Western line, which reveal that message clearly. Expensive mistakes were made in the early stages because it was so long since any electrification of the railways had been done in UK that the expertise had to be built up from scratch. Further projects will inevitably be more cost-efficient, because the expertise, materials and equipment are all available now.

HS2 is, of course, already running well behind the original schedule, so there is a need to build it as quickly as possible. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, addresses that issue in its intention. There is already talk that phase 2b might not be complete until 2040. That is totally unacceptable. The north-east, and the north beyond Crewe in the west, need regeneration now. HS2 is a large piece of the jigsaw of initiatives that are needed.

On 7 October, the Government announced a consultation on several aspects of phase 2b. That closes on 11 December. Can the Minister tell us when the results of that consultation are likely to be made public and what she thinks will be the timescale for the Government’s decisions on it?

We can already see the regenerative impact of HS2 in Birmingham, and shovels are hardly in the ground. The north-east leg via Nottingham to Leeds, and the further part of the western leg to Manchester, need the certainty of the Government’s unequivocal commitment to the whole of HS2 now. I will listen to the tone of the Minister’s response with great interest.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in general, we view the amendment favourably. It seems to have two points to it. The first is to try to secure some continuity, as spelled out by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. The concept of continuity in railway construction is a sound one. Unfortunately, it is a sound principle that we tend not to keep to. The key part of the amendment seems to be the question of whether Her Majesty’s Government will commit to building HS2 phase 2b to Leeds in full. For the avoidance of doubt, Labour’s answer is that we fully support the HS2 concept and the concept that phase 2b should be built to Leeds in full.

I think we already know what the Minister will say. Andrew Stephenson was asked this question in the other place on 22 October. He said that

“when the Prime Minister gave the go-ahead to HS2 in February this year, he said that we were committed to delivering phase 2b but how phase 2b was delivered would be subject to the integrated rail plan. We have been making significant progress with the integrated rail plan. Sir John Armitt and the National Infrastructure Commission have already published their interim report. We look forward to their further recommendations and to responding to them before Christmas.”—[Official Report, Commons, 22/10/20; col. 1213.]

That caused me to look up the interim report, since it seems central to how the question posed in the amendment will be answered. When I found it and skimmed through it, I came up with two questions. The first is very simple: when will the final report on this issue be published? The interim report promises that it will be published in November. It should be noted that Andrew Stephenson said that it would be published by Christmas. If it were published in November, it might be available before we get to Report, which would be extremely useful. When does the Minister expect the report to be published and when does she expect the Government’s response?

The other perhaps disturbing feature of the interim report is the commitment to a very different methodology from that used in the past. Essentially, what is said about a plan depends on the methodology and assumptions in the analysis that answers the question, to what extent and to what standard should the railway be built? Can the Minister assure the Committee that the methodology and assumptions will produce an answer no less favourable to the Leeds branch than those used in HS2? Put another way, if the criteria used in the original HS2 decision would say yes to Leeds but the new criteria say no, surely, this cannot be levelling up. I have seen precious few examples of levelling up, and a failure to build HS2 phase 2b to Leeds—indeed, a failure to build HS2 in full—surely is a statement that the commitment to levelling up is meaningless.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Randerson]

2: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
“Report on the excavation of burial sites and removal of monuments
(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a review of the excavation of burial sites and the removal of monuments undertaken in the process of construction relating to works authorised by this Act.(2) The review must make an assessment of how successful the operations listed in subsection (1) were, in particular with reference to—(a) consultation with local residents; and(b) the response from the wider public.(3) The report may make a recommendation as to how the operation of future excavations and removals of monuments relating to works authorised by this Act can be improved.”

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this is very much a probing amendment, designed to give the Minister the opportunity to place on the record a description of the approach that HS2 intends to take to a very sensitive issue and to explain the lessons it feels it has learned from the experience of phase 1.

Briefly, Schedule 20 deals with the removal of remains and monuments from burial grounds. This featured as a major issue in phase 1, in both Euston and Birmingham. It attracted a great deal of publicity and aroused some public concern that on occasions the approach was rather heavy-handed. In Birmingham 6,500 skeletons were exhumed from a 19th-century graveyard; in Euston it was 50,000 skeletons. It took three years to do this and it counts as one of the UK’s largest ever archaeological programmes. We have learned a great deal about the past, not just from the gravestones but from various other artefacts.

There are no known burial grounds on the route up to Crewe for HS2 but there is always a possibility that one might be found and, assuming that 2b is built—as I hope—there are likely to be similar issues there.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no request to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

I very much thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I was particularly pleased that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, spoke with such assurance about this issue because of the importance of their committee. I have looked at their excellent report to see whether there was reference to this, and of course the reason it did not deal with something that was consuming me was because it had not concerned anyone else in this specific case. As far as I am concerned, that is very good news.

However, I accept entirely what other noble Lords have said, which is that there could well be an unexpected find of this nature. As a teenager, I spent a very interesting and productive summer chipping away at the ground and sweeping with a small brush at the Fishbourne Roman villa, which many noble Lords will recall was in itself a very unexpected find at the time. Unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, I did not find any skeletons, but I found a very small piece of pottery, which made the whole summer worth while.

I emphasise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who pointed out the impact and importance of Crossrail, and the archaeological finds and burials, for example, that have been found as part of the Crossrail construction. It has been a treasure trove of additional historical knowledge about that route through London, so it is very important historically indeed.

The Minister has been very helpful, and I thank her for her assistance in her letter and for her reassurance today. My intention was exactly as has transpired this afternoon. I have now on the record in Hansard clear points about the process, where you can find information on it, and an assurance that it will not just be left to HS2 or any other undertaker to decide what is or is not of historical value. I am therefore happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, will have to unmute himself in order to join us. If he cannot unmute at his end, I am afraid the technicians cannot do it this end. Sadly, I think we are going to have to wait for another amendment for a contribution from the noble Lord. I call the next speaker: the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this group of amendments deals with accountability, including a special report on ancient woodlands, which have of course been the subject of a great deal of debate. No observer of the tortuous process so far for agreeing and starting construction of HS2 can really disagree that more answer- ability needs to be built into the process if taxpayers are to feel comfortable with the project. I was pleased that the Government have appointed a Minister for HS2—that is a good start. There is, I believe, a ministerial taskforce to improve community relations.

The loss of woodland, however, is always a concern. I read the committee’s report very carefully and it deals with this issue in detail. It is important to be clear that the term “ancient woodland” does not mean specifically very old trees but simply that there have been trees in that spot since 1600—which of course means that there is a very well-established ecosystem—whereas very old trees are called veteran trees. According to the committee’s report, there are 10 areas of woodland that will be lost, equalling about 9.8 hectares, plus seven areas, mostly very small, that will be affected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Framlingham (Con) [V]]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for her kind remarks. Sadly, I am reluctant to concede that this mad project can go ahead because I know it will not work; it will not do what it was supposed to be designed to do, and it has within it the seeds of its own destruction. At the end of the day, we will have achieved precious little and caused much harm.

I am happy to support Amendment 5, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. When damaging someone’s life and livelihood, the state, in considering compensation, should certainly not be unfair. In my view, it should not even be just fair. I believe that, within sensible limits, it should be generous. I am not a specialist in this field, so I am speaking about a non-specialist subject, but it goes to the heart of the matter. As HS2 has unfolded, the way that some people—whose homes, land and businesses have been taken away from them—have been haggled with has been as worrying as it has been heart-breaking. We are doing enough harm to the countryside, the environment and the economy already. We should not do any more harm to people who, through no fault of their own, are being caught up in this farce.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, with his great expertise, has made a detailed case for these amendments, so I will speak briefly. I want particularly to talk about Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, to which I have added my name.

Some elements of the compensation schemes devised for HS2 are relatively generous and go well beyond the statutory minimum, but the noble Earl has set out a series of concerns about how those schemes are applied. Even if everything happens perfectly, it is right to say that it is an emotional and difficult time for many people affected by a project such as this. I want to address in particular my concerns about tenants. Some categories of tenancy are adequately covered, but the committee’s report has drawn our attention to the apparent lack of progress in dealing with an issue that was originally raised in the Select Committee of the House of Commons. Tenants with shorthold assured periodic tenancies, some agricultural tenancies and tenancies for narrowboats all appear to have no rights to compensation—not even to a home loss payment. Once again, those in society who are the least well off and the least likely to have adequate resources are given the least consideration. I call on the Minister to provide a better answer than the one that the Secretary of State was able to give in the other place, and to provide us with information and reassurance that all tenants will be properly compensated and dealt with.

The report also draws our attention to two special cases where it is envisaged that homeowners could lose out badly. I would be grateful if the Minister addressed those and said whether, in future, such people will be covered.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. My amendment was tabled to make sure that these important issues are fully debated. I have been rewarded, in the sense that we have had a debate to which people with a great deal of knowledge and experience have contributed.

When I headed up a large publicly owned enterprise, I faced the obligation of how you pay compensation. You are a guardian of the public purse, but nevertheless you want to be fair in an exemplary way, and that implies being on the generous end of the margins that the regulations and/or the law permit. Generally speaking we got that right, and generally speaking we were able to justify the generosity of some of our settlements by the fact that they went through smoothly with little litigation and no loss of public image.

What seems to be true here is the need for consideration of the whole framework. While the position with freeholders may be satisfactory, tenants in general in this area do not get a fair deal. I hope that the Minister will be willing to go beyond saying, “Well, this is what the regulations say,” to a recognition of the widespread feeling that, one way or another, tenants are particularly hurt by the present situation.

I have had a briefing from the National Farmers’ Union, which has already been repeated, and there seems to be a particular problem with agricultural tenancies. You can see the tremendous importance of security of tenure when it comes to farming. Indeed, as far as I can see from the briefings I have received, tenures were much more secure in the past but have become less so, and the compulsory purchase regulations do not in any way reflect the real impact that compulsory purchase can have on the ability of farmers to carry on trading and, if necessary, move farms in order to continue doing so. The whole value of the investment that they make in the land does not seem to be in any way represented in the compensation.

So I am very pleased for the support for my amendment. I agree in some ways with my noble friend Lord Adonis about the need to get this right. I hope the Minister will acknowledge that there is genuine concern in this area, promise to take this issue away and perhaps, once again, have some meetings before Report to see if we can have a meeting of minds.

Covid-19: Transport for London

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we want—as much as anybody else wants—London to have a safe, sustainable and reliable network. Obviously, there are issues to consider. In the short term, London’s revenues have been significantly impacted by the decline in passenger numbers. We have to make sure that, as we look to longer-term financial sustainability, not just UK taxpayers but Londoners support TfL.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

The Government continue to warn the public to avoid public transport and work from home. Tube journeys, for instance, are down to about a third of their usual numbers. When the train operating companies were bailed out to the tune of £3.5 billion, similar terms to those that have been imposed on Londoners were not imposed on them. Can the Minister explain why Londoners, whether travelling by car or public transport, are subject to financial penalties not imposed elsewhere?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, train operating companies are not the same as TfL and a devolved public transport authority. Equivalent conditions or discussions cannot therefore be made because the two are not comparable. However, I assure the noble Baroness that the Government’s messaging has been to use public transport safely and has been that for quite some time.