National Insurance Contributions (Reduction in Rates) Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Primarolo (Lab)]

My Lords, I will make a short intervention in this debate to ask the Minister a few questions about the allocation from the National Insurance Fund to the NHS following the introductions of the measures in the Bill.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates that 19% of the National Insurance Fund is paid directly to the NHS. My first question to the Minister is, will she confirm that that percentage is correct? When Governments quote figures going to the NHS, they always talk in cash terms, but when we see a reduction in funding for the National Insurance Fund, it is good to know exactly what we are talking about. Will the Minister confirm the percentage allocated to the National Health Service from the National Insurance Fund?

Secondly, will the Minister assure your Lordships’ House that the cash value currently paid in funding to the NHS from the National Insurance Fund will not be reduced as a result of these measures? Would she be good enough, after this debate, to provide the forecast figures for both the percentage and the cash terms of the money paid from the National Insurance Fund to the NHS? Should there be any shortfall, will she give an undertaking on behalf of the Government that that reduction—that loss of funding—will be made good by the Government from general taxation: that it will be earmarked not as extra funding but as replacement funding, should there be any reduction as a result of the measures in the Bill?

I absolutely appreciate that national insurance Bills are incredibly complicated, having dealt with them in the past in another place, so if the Minister does not have that information at her fingertips, which I would entirely understand, I would be more than happy for her to write to me and the relevant spokespersons in the House with those figures. While reducing national insurance has the implications that the Minister has rightly identified, it also has a potential downside, and we need to know what that is. Will the funding of the National Health Service be protected?

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I suspect that we are now moving into an area of debate where is not appropriate to go today, because there is business still to come in the House; I know that my noble friend is desperately waiting to get up.

I go back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Primarolo. Obviously, the balance of the national insurance fund is monitored closely. The most recent report from the Government Actuary’s Department—GAD—forecast that the fund will be able to self-finance for at least the next five years. But, of course, the Treasury has the ability to top up the NIF from the consolidated fund when needed. Indeed, this has been done in the past—it was routinely done in the 1990s—so it is not right to say that the cut in NICs puts any pressure at all on any payment to the NHS or otherwise; that is set independently from the national insurance fund.

[Baroness Primarolo (Lab)]

I do not wish to detain the House but, frankly, that is not the question I was asking. I was asking the Minister about something that she has confirmed: 20% of the 100% that the NHS gets comes from the national insurance fund and it is equated to a cash value. If there is less in the national insurance fund, less cash goes to the NHS. The simple question I asked was not about whether the NHS will still get the 100%; it was about whether the 80% will become 81% or 82%. It is quite a techy point and I do not want to delay the House, but it makes quite a difference to the cash that the NHS receives. I was just asking the Minister to confirm and clarify that; I am not seeking to score any points off her.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to be able to clarify that it is not set on a percentage basis at all. The amount of money that goes to the NHS is set in actual terms; for example, it is £160 billion in 2023-24 and will be £162.5 billion in 2024-25. It has nothing to do with the percentage of anything.

I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on the Taylor review and everything that she raised. That would probably be the most appropriate thing to do.

For the time being, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and I beg to move.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so generous in giving way to the rover from Dover. I gently point out that the reason why we cannot show a preference towards our own businesses in matters of procurement is to do with the European Union, which he loves so much.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Believe it or not, that discussion is outside the scope of the Budget resolutions. But given that the hon. Gentleman had just acquired a nickname—although I will not be addressing him as such—I decided to allow him to intervene. Mr Davies, I should be grateful if you returned to the Finance Bill.

[Geraint Davies]

Clearly, I accept the ruling on the rover from Dover. I was simply making the point that, in our growth strategy, we should be encouraging small businesses. In Wales, something like 60% of procurement goes to small businesses, half of which are based in Wales. In England, the comparable figure is something like 25%. I am suggesting that, through encouragement rather than breaking EU rules on competition, we should make things easier for small businesses in order to help growth, tax, and supply chains. We should do that, rather than just say, “What can we do?” Labour increased this economy by 40% in the 10 years to 2008, before the banking crisis.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Mr Davies, you are way out of scope now, so we will go to the concluding remarks of this debate, because we are running out of time.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Commons Chamber

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause 67 stand part.

New clause 1—Report on impact of value added tax—

“(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the impact of the increase in the standard rate of VAT which took effect from 4 January 2011.

(2) The report must estimate the impact of the increase in the standard rate of value added tax on—

(a) living standards;

(b) small businesses;

(c) the fairness of the taxation system; and

(d) economic growth.”.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Friday 20th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. We have three speakers and I am very keen that we should get everyone in, but we must get to the wind-ups before 10 past 2. I am very sorry, but may I ask each speaker to consider using eight minutes rather than 10?

Amendment of the Law

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Thursday 19th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

I share the right hon. Gentleman’s experience of having opposed the minimum wage when it was proposed by the previous Government, although I now realise that was a mistake and have been converted to the value of it, given how it has worked. Does he agree that if the political debate follows what the shadow Chancellor wants, and each of the parties—all seven of them, no doubt—says what it would tell employers to pay as a minimum wage, we go back to the danger that I initially feared of unemployment being caused by bidding up, for vote-catching reasons, the basic pay of people trying to get into work?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Before the Secretary of State replies, may I gently say that 23 Members wish to take part in this debate, and he has been speaking for nearly 35 minutes. I understand that he has generously taken lots of interventions, but will he perhaps think about all his colleagues who still wish to speak?

[Vince Cable]

I will certainly respond as you wish, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think I have taken at least 23 interventions, but I am happy to cruise to a conclusion on that note.

If we are going to lift real wages and living standards, that must be done through the growth of productivity. That is the only way it can happen. A whole set of measures in the Budget suggest how that can happen in the long term. It must come through skills and innovation, and there was a series of constructive initiatives—catapults, science capital investment, driverless cars, the internet of things, the energy research institution, and other things—in the Budget. Cumulatively, those will drive up productivity in British industry.

One announcement that perhaps did not receive as much attention as it should have done was about trying to improve the way funding flows through apprenticeships and a voucher system that enables employers—particularly small companies—to acquire the skills they need. The key, however, will be business investment, and I have already pointed to improving trends in that respect. One lesson of our period in office is that under the difficult conditions we have had, by investing judiciously through bodies such as the regional growth fund, the Green Investment Bank, and the British Business Bank, the Government can stimulate significant amounts of additional private investment.

I will finish with an announcement in response to a question that the Leader of the Opposition threw out yesterday about the Green Investment Bank. We have agreed that that is a successful initiative that stimulates private investment, and for £2 billion from Government there has been £3 billion extra from the private sector. We want to build on that success and are looking at a range of options for bringing private capital into the Green Investment Bank, and to give it greater operational freedom and enable it to borrow in capital markets. That will provide it with an alternative channel of funding, and ensure its future as a lasting and enduring institution.

There was a great deal of excitement earlier this morning about the alternative route to fiscal policy that my party was advocating, and it is right that in the run-up to the general election we should have a different approach to how we balance the budget. However, there was a lot of common ground, and this was a joint coalition Budget that we are proud to have been associated with. It was about economic growth—we are now the most successful in the industrial world having been in the worst crisis—and about rising business investment, exceptional levels of employment, and rapidly falling unemployment. All that is taking place at a time when the public finances have been approved, and we have moved from being a basket case to a successful economy.

Future Government Spending

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie]

No.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) is right to highlight the impact on our national health service of some of the devastating changes that have hit social care. She made her point well.

It is bad enough that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister fight so hard against the idea that an inclusive approach leads to a stronger economy and a better plan. [Interruption.] What is worse is that the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and Government Members fully intend to accelerate the failing plan for a further five years—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Conservative Members have had their fun in shouting across the Chamber. The debate should settle down now, with interventions when they are taken, but a proper debate. Mr Smith, if you have a question, it is normal to stand up on an intervention, not just speak by Christian name across the Chamber. Thank you.

[Chris Leslie]

I appreciate that, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. There is a seven-minute time limit on all Back-Bench contributions, starting with the next speaker.

Tax Avoidance

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. There will be a five-minute limit on all Back-Bench speeches, starting from now. We have just about an hour for Back-Bench contributions before we have to start concluding the debate, so I hope each Member will bear that in mind.

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[Robert Neill]

I am glad the hon. Gentleman raised that point. He and I agree about the importance of financial services, but ironically, the blunderbuss approach taken by the Leader of the Opposition in his extraordinarily inept intervention in relation to the Crown dependencies and overseas territories is a perfect example of the cavalier approach that we have seen from the Opposition. I noticed that the shadow Minister mentioned it only briefly towards the end of her speech, as if some kind of major triumph had been achieved by this statesmanlike international figure, the Leader of the Opposition. I might just dissect that a little in a moment. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) wants to intervene, I will give way.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. If the hon. Lady wishes to intervene, she should rise to the Dispatch Box and not shout across the Chamber.

[Shabana Mahmood]

I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, you are quite right to admonish me. The policy of having a publicly available register of beneficial ownership is a policy of the hon. Gentleman’s own Prime Minister. Does the hon. Gentleman disagree with that policy?

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. It is now necessary for the time limit to be reduced to four minutes for the remaining Back-Bench speeches. If there are interventions, there will need to be a further reduction before the winding-up speeches.

Charter for Budget Responsibility

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

If Government Members are so dismissive of Labour’s plans, why will they not let the OBR independently audit our plans instead of using civil servants fraudulently to manufacture fictitious dossiers about Labour’s plans? Is it that they are scared?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr McCabe, you need to rephrase the presentation by civil servants from “fraudulent”. [Interruption.] I will deal with it, thank you. I do not need any help.

[Steve McCabe]

I will happily withdraw the term “fraudulent”, but I do think the Government are misusing civil servants.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. There will be a six-minute time limit on all Back-Bench contributions starting from now. It may be necessary to reduce it further, so I ask Members to bear that in mind when taking interventions.

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[Barry Gardiner]

I am sorry, but I cannot because of the time limit. I am conscious that other Members want to speak.

In 2010, the Prime Minister told the CBI:

“In five years’ time, we will have balanced the books.”

Some might say, “Surely that was before the general election—before he saw the books”, but it was not: it was on 25 October of that year, well after the general election. The Conservatives have broken that promise, and borrowing in 2015 is set to be over £75 billion. The Chancellor is now borrowing £200 billion more than was planned in 2010.

This failure to deliver on the central goal is fundamentally linked to the Government’s failure to tackle the cost of living crisis. Wages continue to stagnate for very many workers. Too many of the jobs that are being created are low paid and insecure; they are not jobs in high-paid, high-productivity sectors. As a result, our public finances have been weakened. Low and stagnant pay means that tax receipts are £68 billion lower, while receipts from national insurance contributions are £27.3 billion lower across the same period. Low pay combines with higher housing costs and failure to deliver benefit reform to drive social security costs higher. This Government are now set to spend £25 billion more on social security than they planned five years ago. The Government who came in to reform social security because it cost too much are spending £25 billion more than they said they would.

In the 2014 Budget statement, the Chancellor said that he wanted a vote on an absolute surplus. The country understands that there are few, but significant, levers that one can use to sort out the deficit: one can vary spending, vary taxes, and vary borrowing. However, varying spending and taxes can vary the level of tax receipts the Treasury gets in, and that level determines how much one needs to borrow to balance the books. The Chancellor said that

“in this Budget all decisions are paid for. Taxes are lower but so, too, is spending”.—[Official Report, 19 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 784.]

He should have gone on to say: “But so too are tax receipts, and social security spending is up.”

The Government have failed on their fiscal mandate, but we should look at not just the Red Book but the green book, because growth cannot be built by eroding our natural environment—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Time is up. I am reducing the time limit to five minutes per Back Bencher with effect from the next speaker.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. We are under quite a lot of time pressure now. In order to make sure that every Member who wants to speak gets in, I am taking the time limit down to four minutes for each Back-Bench contribution. I think we will be able to make sure that everybody gets in on that basis. The time limit is now four minutes and I warned Steve Baker about that beforehand.

Taxation of Pensions Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 37, line 37, after “arrangement”,”, insert

““nominee’s flexi-access drawdown fund”,”.

This Amendment, and Amendments 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, insert two missing definitions into the amendments made by the Bill in each of the two subsisting versions of section 576A of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 2 to 39.

[Mr Gauke]

Amendments 1 to 8 are all of a minor and technical nature, amending various definitions and removing unnecessary sections. I would be happy to explain those in more detail if hon. Members are interested, but if they are not, I will move on to amendments 9 to 39.

As hon. Members will recall, we had a very useful debate in Committee about the new information requirements for individuals that are set out in part 6 of schedule 1 to the Bill. I said at the time that the Government were keen to work with industry and consumer groups to ensure that the requirements are proportionate, and that we would consider the issue further. We have therefore continued to have constructive discussions with the pensions industry about the impacts of the Bill. As a result of this ongoing consultation, we have tabled a number of amendments that we believe are a proportionate response to the concerns raised. These changes will make the reporting requirements that individuals need to meet easier to comply with, while still ensuring that they have access to the right information to help them pay the right amount of tax. Government amendments 9 to 39 therefore make a number of changes to the information requirements in the Bill to provide that individuals have to tell schemes that they have flexibly accessed their pension savings only if they are an active member of that scheme, and to increase the time they have to comply from 31 days to 91 days.

It might be helpful if I start by setting out why these information requirements are required. As we have discussed many times during the course of this Bill’s passage through the House, when an individual accesses their pension flexibly, their annual allowance for tax-relieved defined contribution pension contributions will reduce from £40,000 to £10,000. That will protect the Exchequer and ensure that the new system cannot be exploited to achieve unintended tax advantages by individuals’ diverting their salary into their pension and withdrawing it immediately with tax relief. It is therefore important that individuals understand the tax consequences of saving into a pension after accessing their savings flexibly. For that reason, the Bill placed a new requirement on individuals to tell all their pension providers once they had flexibly accessed a pension. This was intended to ensure that individuals do not use the new system to gain a tax advantage that is not intended. However, the Government have always been clear that they are keen to ensure these requirements are proportionate. Having considered the issue carefully, we are amending the Bill to provide that people need to tell only the schemes to which they are contributing or that they contribute to in the future. They will also have an extended period of 91 days in which to do so. These changes will make the new system easier for individuals and schemes to comply with, while also ensuring that the new annual allowance is implemented effectively. Again, I would be happy to explain these amendments in more detail if hon. Members are interested.

The Economy

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I have to tell the House that it is necessary to reduce the speaking time limit to six minutes. Unfortunately, interventions are taking us well over the eight-minute time limit, so that will not enable us to get every Member in. Therefore, with effect from the next speaker, who is Brooks Newmark, the time limit will be six minutes.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am reducing the time limit to four minutes. I ask each speaker to bear it in mind that the winding-up speeches have to start at 20 minutes to 4. That means that interventions should not be taken, except at the risk of talking out other colleagues.