Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Main Page: Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative - Life peer)Enterprise Bill [HL]
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“UK Green Investment Bank
Omit Part 1 of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 (UK Green Investment Bank).”
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)
My Lords, this is the Government’s only amendment tabled for Committee. It has the effect of repealing Part 1 of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act, which is the legislation controlling the Green Investment Bank. I apologise that this matter has had to be introduced by amendment and that we were not therefore able to debate this issue at Second Reading. Its inclusion in this Bill at this stage is as a result of late developments during our work to introduce private capital into the Green Investment Bank, which we announced in June.
I will explain a bit of the background and set out the rationale behind the amendment. The Green Investment Bank was, I believe, a real success of the last Government. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, will agree with me on that. Indeed, I hope that all noble Lords will agree.
The Green Investment Bank was set up, in 2012, to mobilise private sector investment in the green economy. It is doing its job remarkably well. So far it has committed £2 billion to 55 green projects and seven funds, alongside £6 billion of additional private investment. So for every £1 that the GIB invests, it is mobilising an additional £3 from the private sector, and it is doing it all on fully commercial terms, showing that green investment can be profitable. It is helping to bring new investment from long-term institutional investors, such as pension funds, into green projects. For example, last month it announced that an additional £355 million was being committed to its offshore wind subsidiary fund, bringing the total in the fund to £818 million. That is all private sector money, albeit managed by the public GIB.
No doubt your Lordships will ask why the Government want to change something which is already so successful. The simple answer is that government ownership is holding back the GIB’s ambition. All the while it is owned by government, it is limited in what it can do. It is limited in the amount of funding it can access, because it must compete for its funding alongside schools and hospitals, and it may not borrow freely on the capital markets while on the Government’s balance sheet. It is limited in the range of sectors in which it can operate as it is constrained by state aid rules. Moreover, it is limited to operating within the UK all the while it is funded with taxpayers’ money. It is currently undertaking a pilot with the Department of Energy and Climate Change to do some international work, but we believe that it could do more. The GIB has been going from strength to strength, and because of this, its ambitions are beginning to outstrip the supply of capital that the Government can and should provide. Our policy aim is to get the market to work in tackling green policy challenges. Bringing private capital directly into the GIB is the natural next step for the company rather than leaving it to rely on public funds.
The repeal proposed in the amendment is not something that the Government have decided upon lightly, but it has now become apparent that it is a necessary step if we are to move the GIB into private ownership. If the GIB is to enjoy the benefits of private ownership, including having the freedom to borrow and raise capital, it must be declassified from the public sector. If it remains in the public sector, it could not raise equity or debt without impacting public sector net debt. The decision on whether an organisation is classified to the public or private sector is made by the Office for National Statistics on the basis of EU-wide rules. In making its decision, the ONS will look at a number of factors, including any relevant legislation, to determine whether the Government have control over the organisation, so control is the key point. The legislation in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 is highly likely to constitute government control over the GIB, even if the bank is no longer owned by the Government.
The Government understand that people will be concerned about how the Green Investment Bank will continue its green focus without the statutory lock controlling it. I will not pre-empt those questions as I would like to hear what your Lordships have to say, but I will say now that the Government want and expect the GIB to maintain its clear focus on the green economy, and we are confident that it will do so. Indeed, that is precisely the reason why investors will be buying it.
I will bring my remarks to a close by saying that the GIB’s management and its independent board is fully supportive of the Government’s intention to bring in private capital and understand the need for this repeal. This includes the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, who is the chair of the GIB, located of course in Scotland. I hope that your Lordships will be able to support this amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment 53ZA (to Amendment 53)
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for this useful discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, talked about “son of Stalin”; I think that it is more “son of Thatcher”. This is an enterprise Bill, after all, and we all seem to agree that the GIB is remarkably entrepreneurial. That is why we want to free it up. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, is not opposed in principle to privatisation. Indeed, I agree with him about a lot of the positives that he mentioned concerning the framework in the UK, with shareholder rights and so on. I think that we have a very good base here. He brings a lot of expertise to the debate. He has rather naughtily asked a few commercial questions and I am not sure that I can answer every single one. However, we understand that this is an important issue that is of interest to a great many people, beyond the confines of this room today. There are a number of points raised to which we will give careful consideration.
I will now move on to the amendments and will answer questions as I go through. Amendments 53ZA and 53ZB would require the Government to lay a report in both Houses detailing the proposal to dispose of shares in the GIB, before the repeal of the existing legislation contained in the 2013 Act could take effect. I welcome the intention behind these amendments, which is to ensure that Parliament is kept informed of the Government’s move to introduce private capital into the GIB. That, frankly, is entirely right and fair, not least because of the level of interest. However, I would be concerned that these amendments, as drafted, might prevent the Government ensuring that the legislation is repealed at the appropriate point in a transaction process, if that were to fall at a time when the House was not sitting. As your Lordships will understand, the Government need to retain the flexibility to manage the complicated sale process.
However, it is our intention to keep Parliament fully informed. I am happy to commit today that the Government will be sure to provide Parliament with much of the kind of information suggested by noble Lords as soon as possible after any sale has taken place and at the appropriate time in the future, should the Government retain a stake that might be sold later, which obviously is an option.
Moving to the Government’s amendment, I hope that I can reassure noble Lords on a number of specific points that they have raised today. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked whether it was too early for privatisation. I believe that the answer is no. We feel that moving GIB into private ownership is the natural next step for the business. The company itself, as I have already said, fully supports the move. There is strong interest in acquiring a stake in the bank from a number of larger-scale institutional investors, as could be confirmed by some comments. In his evidence to the Environmental Audit Committee last week in the other place, the CEO, Shaun Kingsbury, expressed his support for government plans to seek private ownership for the bank.
To answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, the Government will explore all options for a sale and, as I will emphasise, our decisions will reflect the outcome that we believe is in the best public interest. Obviously the proceeds will depend on how big a stake is sold and the outcome of negotiations with investors about the value of the company. We will need to be satisfied that any transaction represents value for money for the taxpayer.
Noble Lords are interested, understandably, in the transaction details, in particular whether the Government intend to retain a stake. The Government intend to sell a majority of the bank, as we have made clear, so that could involve retaining a minority stake. Our decision will depend on the outcome of the discussions that we are having and will have with potential investors. Some investors might welcome government retaining a stake, while some might want to buy 100%. To respond to the noble Lord’s point, whatever we decide to do, we will be driven by the public interest and our goal of achieving the best outcome for the Green Investment Bank itself. However, I must point out that if the Government retain a sizeable minority stake—by which I mean one that would allow them significant control over decisions made by the company—we may not achieve our objective of ensuring that it could be classified to the private sector.
Lord Mendelsohn
I will ask the noble Baroness a quick question. She said that this would be in the interest of the Green Investment Bank. The Green Investment Bank is a commercial institution which the Government are about to sell, so the terms of its commercial operations are very different—they are not inherently in the public interest because the public interest is defined as the mission which they gave it, and the members of the Green Investment Bank and its management have an obvious alternative economic interest. When she uses the terms “public interest” and “the Green Investment Bank’s interest” they are two entirely different things which may conflict in many ways when it comes to a transaction. Could the noble Baroness please be a bit clearer about what she means when she uses those terms?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I will come to that as I come to my final paragraph, if I may. Perhaps I could first clear up one or two points that have been raised. The first was about the advice from the ONS, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked for. We are satisfied that unless all the legislation is repealed, there is a real risk that the GIB could not be classified to the private sector. We have come to that view based on our understanding of the European statistics authority’s guidance, which the noble Lord has also had a look at. I was also asked whether the Government will freeze future funding.
Lord Teverson
I will not interrupt the Minister regularly but should I understand it that this is a government interpretation of reading the ONS material and the European statistical material, or have the Government received any advice from the ONS? The way I read the Minister, it was the Government’s interpretation.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The Government have been in discussion with the ONS but this is a serious matter involving a major transaction, and the Government have to take their own view of the rules as laid down. That is the view we have come to after very serious thought. As your Lordships can imagine, we would not lightly have added this provision to the Bill, enterprising though the GIB is. We are convinced of the need to do so, for the reasons that I set out because of our interpretation of the ESA rules.
Lord Teverson
Can I ask the Minister one follow-up question on that? If the Government found that it were possible to keep those five principles in legislation, would they wish to do so?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The noble Lord makes a good point. It is clear to the Government that we cannot retain control over the Green Investment Bank if it is to be declassified from the public sector following a sale. I do not think that really answers the question about the five objectives, which I will reflect on and come back. I think the Committee can understand the basic point that we are making and obviously, as I will come on to explain, we want the Green Investment Bank to continue to be a Green Investment Bank and to operate effectively.
Perhaps I could therefore move on to the question of the remit and reiterate the point that I made in my opening remarks. It is the Government’s policy to move the bank into private ownership and we cannot retain control over its operations. That has to be interpreted in law and is the challenge that we are working with. However, I would like to give a bit more detail on how the bank will, as we see it, retain its mission.
Lord Mendelsohn
Just to be absolutely clear: is the Minister saying that the principal, driving objective is to transfer the Green Investment Bank into largely private ownership? If that is so, everything else is entirely secondary. If those are the terms, that is why there will be variations as to whether the Government have a long-term commitment or wish to do any funding. Is that the principal and overriding concern, more than anything else? Because if that is the case, it means that everything else is willing to be thrown under the bus.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
We want the package to look right, so “thrown under the bus” is the wrong metaphor. But we said clearly in June that we want to privatise the Green Investment Bank and when we came to do the work, we discovered that the ESA/ONS rules would not allow us to do that in this form. That is why we have taken the step of bringing this amendment to the House.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
I hesitate to cause more pain to the Minister but my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn has hit the nail on the head. If you are selling more than 50% of the stake then you are not in control of the bank. But control is exercised in public corporations at a variety of levels, as the Minister knows all too well from her own commercial experience. It would not be possible for a government shareholder holding around or less than 30% to make any impact on the overall management and control of the company because it would be down to the majority shareholders. The point is: what are the Government trying to do here? Is it just 51% to 49% or would they accept, in favourable circumstances, 71% to 29%? Those are the two options and, within that, the Government have a very limited role to play.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I think I made it clear that there are a number of options regarding the share, but I had also made it clear that we are looking to sell only a significant stake. The heart of the problem is that if we could keep the legislation without prejudicing the bank’s status we would, but the advice we are working on is that we cannot do that.
Lord Teverson
That is an excellent response and I welcome it. I hope that we can find a way of showing the Minister that it is indeed possible, and in that way help the Government to achieve their objectives. That would be an excellent solution to find.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am glad we are making progress. Green investment, which I am not an expert in, as all noble Lords know, is what the Green Investment Bank does. As I see it, that is the brand of the Green Investment Bank—after all, it is called the Green Investment Bank—so the parallel with 3i is not entirely fair. Because of that, the Government fully expect that potential investors will wish to maintain the bank’s green focus and values; they will know what they are buying into.
Lord Mendelsohn
On that point, is an absolute assurance or guarantee required? Would the Government fetter their ability to do it, or would that lead them into the same problems during the sale process?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I think I will have to answer as I have before: we cannot prejudice the bank’s status. I think that our heart is in the right place but we are in some difficulty here. As part of any sale discussions, potential investors will be asked to confirm their commitments to these values and set out how they propose to protect them. We envisage that this would involve the new shareholders agreeing to retain the green objectives in the Green Investment Bank’s articles of association, to which the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, referred at the beginning, and to ensure that the bank continued to invest in a way that achieved a positive impact. I hope that that helps. We also expect that new shareholders will agree to continue the GIB’s existing standards of reporting on its green investment performance, and provide independent assurance of that. I understand that these commitments are not as strong as a statutory lock, but it is simply not an option to impose more binding conditions that would require the business to act in a particular way since that would have exactly the same effect as this legislation. The GIB would very likely have to remain in the public sector, with the problems that I described before.
Lord Mendelsohn
I am trying to hone this down to one particular point. The Minister has said that these are expectations, not commitments that we can readily accept. An expectation is not a commitment in the first place. I am trying to work out what thresholds any potential investor has to pass in order to meet her expectations.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am in some difficulty because we are still designing the sale process. I know that the noble Lord has been in meetings where we have tried to explain the situation, and he has asked lots of questions. We have to try, with the House’s help, to find a way through. I have tried to explain some of our expectations and what we are trying to achieve, which I do not think is a million miles away from what others here want to achieve.
The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly asked a question about the Royal Mail and whether the controls over it helped us in terms of a precedent. Actually, his comments show how valuable it is that we have introduced this amendment in Committee rather than leaving it until Report because he has asked some very good questions, and the Bill will of course go on to the other place. The simple answer on the Royal Mail is that it is regulated because it is designated as a universal service provided by Ofcom; it is not itself controlled by legislation. The same is true for other utilities, such as water companies, that choose to operate in a specific sector.
I understand that noble Lords will want to reflect on our discussion. The Government too will of course reflect on the discussions raised and on the amendments proposed. I note that noble Lords wish to debate this on the Floor of the House.
I said that I would respond on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, about public interest in the GIB. The public interest lies in the GIB having a strong and secure future in the private sector as a green institution, and securing the best value for money for UK taxpayers.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Cope of Berkeley that it was right to raise this in Committee. In view of today’s discussion and the points made by noble Lords, I will withdraw my amendment for now and the Government will retable it on Report.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
Can I just clarify one thing? I accept that the Minister says that she will withdraw her amendment. She said that she agreed with most of the points in my amendment, and that Parliament will be properly consulted. Given the uncertainty, what is the problem with putting some procedural amendment—I took my drafting from the Postal Services Act—in the Bill? Why cannot something like this be considered? I ask her, with due respect, please to consider coming back with a fuller amendment rather than something that gives the Government a complete blank cheque, which will not be acceptable in this House or the other.
Lord Mendelsohn
From this side, we thank the Minister for her approach to this. We want to be clear that we believe that it is possible to structure this so that the mission can be protected and there can still be a transfer into the private sector. If the Government come forward with such a proposal, it will have our wholehearted support.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am grateful to noble Lords for their courtesy. It is a bit like going to the gym, this afternoon, but I am glad that we have had the discussion. Of course I will consider before Report what we can do to meet the concerns expressed. As I said, I am as keen as noble Lords to find a way forward that allows this privatisation to go ahead and does not lead us into this rather surprising cul-de-sac. We will have a think about process, given that there is agreement—not on everything but on some aspects of issues that we have discussed this afternoon.
Lord Mendelsohn
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for that intervention. I shall make it very clear. We introduced these as probing amendments to test a variety of things. The context is that that was prior to the publication of the consultation, and the debate that we have had is very different from the one that we would have had. I and, I suspect, some others in this Room would have tickled the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on some of those issues in other circumstances, but these are the circumstances that we are presented with: we are focusing on the consequences of the consultation.
It will come as no surprise to anyone to hear that I was always sceptical of the legal advice—we are going back to the constants of “may” and “must”—but I also presented in meetings counsel’s views, which have turned out to be rather prescient. I would be very grateful if the noble Baroness, who will always resist publishing the advice, would at least give us a much greater recitation of what legal advice has been given and whether the Government have taken effective external advice, as well as advice on whether the consultation was consistent with the Act. Will the Minister give a timetable for the Government to come forward with a proper impact assessment of the consultation proposals, as opposed to the proposals that we all agree to? We would also be grateful if she would set out whether existing legislation will allow the Pubs Code Adjudicator to deal with the pubcos gaming the system. If this measure goes through in the form it is in now, it will mean that the pubcos can game it to their hearts’ delight.
We would also be grateful if the Minister could give us an indication as to whether the Minister in the department directly responsible for signing off this consultation gave direction to the officials to draft the consultation on the basis of the proposals not contained in the Act and whether there has effectively been a change of policy to ignore the Act and introduce a different form. This more consistently follows what was proposed previously as opposed to the Act, and we would be very grateful for some assurance that such directions were not given by the Minister responsible.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for triggering this debate with their amendments and for taking us back—unexpectedly on my part—to pubs. I am very glad that the noble Lords, Lord Whitty, Lord Snape and Lord Berkeley, are all here to explain very clearly their concerns. I also welcome back my noble friend Lord Hodgson. I very much take the point that he made about the complications of this area and the risk of pubs closing—which I think we all want to try to avoid—and the fact that we must not get this wrong. Although the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, agreed with the concerns of others on his side, he also pointed out the importance of the consumer in all this, which we must never forget.
I can understand why some noble Lords are disappointed by the Government’s decision not to implement the parallel rent assessments. I assure noble Lords that I made my previous commitments in good faith, as I am sure they know. However, noble Lords will recall that the pubs measures in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act were agreed at great speed towards the end of the last Parliament, and of course since then, as has been said, the Government have changed, and we have reviewed the best way to achieve the objectives. I will come on to that in more detail later if the Committee will allow, but the key point is that the Government are trying to strike the right balance, delivering fairness for tenants and stability for the industry. I cannot accept what has been said about my right honourable friend Anna Soubry, who is a great advocate for small business and is genuinely trying to find the right answer, as I will try to explain when we go through this in more detail.
Our proposals are out for consultation at the moment, and my officials are meeting tenants’ representatives and pub companies next week to discuss this matter in great detail. There was a blank space on page 66 of the consultation document for people to add comments. I have just looked at that document and it makes it quite clear on page 12 that there has been a change on the PRA point. We are not trying to hide that there has been a change of policy here. However, I will explain the current approach later on.
I add that we are fully focused on meeting the important May 2016 deadline for implementation. There was agreement that we should get on and implement this and not leave it for years and years. Obviously, the consultation process is very conscious of that deadline. I also wish to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that there was stakeholder engagement over the summer, which was carried out by officials. It was balanced and they listened to views from across the sector. My right honourable friend Anna Soubry visited Burton-on-Trent on Monday and met with pub companies, and she will be meeting tenants’ representatives later this month.
I will take the amendments in turn. I know that there is most concern about the third set of amendments but, for the record, I will answer the points raised on the others.
Lord Mendelsohn
Does the noble Baroness mean that her right honourable friend met people prior to the publication of the consultation or afterwards?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My understanding is that she met with the pubs after the consultation, as, in turn, she will be meeting the tenants once the consultation was published. I have to reject the underlying implication that somehow we are not balanced on this. Consultation is a serious matter for business. You have to put things out in draft and you have to listen to what is said, which is what we always do.
I turn now to Amendment 53ZC. I understand the concerns about potential manipulation of the ownership of tied-pub estates but I am not convinced that this amendment is the way to address the issue. It would place an additional burden on the adjudicator by requiring him or her to monitor all pub sales, to make a judgment as to whether they reveal a pattern of divestments, and to assess whether their effect is to exempt the pub companies concerned from the jurisdiction of the Pubs Code, thereby causing detriment to the tenants concerned. While one large pub company sold around 150 tied pubs earlier this year to a company that will not be covered by the code, another has recently purchased more than twice as many tied pubs that were previously outside the scope of the code. Purchases and sales of this order have been a feature of the sector for at least 15 years. However, the Secretary of State has a duty under Section 46 to review the operation of the Pubs Code every three years, and that will present an opportunity to look again at issues around sales and acquisitions.
Amendment 53ZD was debated in Committee on the 2015 Act. Parliament’s decision to define the threshold for the Pubs Code in terms of tied pubs reflected more than a decade’s worth of evidence that the problem in the pub sector related to abuses in the tied sector. We talked about this at the time. It is those abuses that the Pubs Code Adjudicator has been introduced to address, and I remain of the view that Parliament was correct to define the threshold solely in terms of tied pubs. At present, the amendment would bring within scope just one company with tied pubs—Mitchells & Butlers, which has in total around 1,800 pubs in England and Wales but fewer than 60 tied pubs. Bringing these few extra tied pubs into scope would create the anomaly of leaving a number of companies owning several hundred tied pubs outside it. Such an anomaly would have risked legal challenge—noble Lords will remember that we discussed this before—possibly imperilling all the pubs measures, which was something that we were keen to avoid.
Section 69 gives the Secretary of State the power to amend the number of tied pubs required to meet the threshold. That is the right safeguard for ensuring that the code delivers its overarching principles.
I turn now to Amendment 53ZF. I know that it is a disappointment to some noble Lords that the Government have decided not to proceed with implementing the PRA, if I may call it that. As noble Lords will recall, it was the previous Government’s intention during the passage of the Bill to introduce PRA and to streamline it with the market-only option. We have had a change of government and the incoming Government have looked again at the commitments that their predecessors made in order to get the legislation on to the statute book. We have looked at the best way of achieving the objectives of this policy. Our focus has been on providing a robust Pubs Code and adjudicator that deliver fairness for tenants and stability for the industry within the timeframe set out in the Act. It became clear, when working through the details over the summer, that the complexity of introducing PRA alongside MRO would put unnecessary burdens on the industry. Having two processes which can be triggered separately but on the same bases, which are not administratively connected and which follow different timetables and rules is not a practical or sensible proposition. We want to minimise the burdens on business. Not taking forward PRA at this time would reduce the regulatory burden of the pubs measures by £600,000 a year. These are burdens that we would have to compensate for by a reduction in another regulatory area, so it is a big figure at a time when pubs are closing.
Lord Snape
Was that figure not available on 28 January when the noble Baroness made that pledge? She said that,
“our amendments provide that they”—
that is, the tenants—
“will have the protection of the parallel rent assessment—PRA—which will show them how their tied deal compares with a free-of-tie deal”.—[Official Report, 28/1/15; col. GC92.]
That appears to be a specific pledge. Did it not cost £600 million then and, if it did, why did she make that pledge?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am sure that we had some measure of the costs available at the time. I am not trying to dispute that. What I am trying to explain is why we have changed the situation. The costs are not the only matter. I am trying to explain how the two measures sit together and how we have sat down to have a look at these things. Perhaps I may proceed.
Lord Mendelsohn
I am probably unnecessarily confused here. Is the Minister saying that the burden on business was £600,000?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
It is £600,000 for having the PRA in addition. I am sorry if I gave the figure incorrectly. I felt that it was helpful to share that figure of £600,000 with the Committee.
Lord Snape
In the context of government expenditure, we are grateful for that but it does not really amount to a great deal, does it?
Lord Mendelsohn
What assessment has that figure taken into account? As I read a statement from a company’s report of what it has currently spent, does it mean that that £600,000 includes the fact that it has now wasted a large amount of management time and money to that effect? Is that included or is it outside it? Has the company calculated that number?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
This is a figure for the burden on business, so to that extent there is a parallel. Perhaps we can move on but there is a cost, and a complexity, in having a double system. We want to try to do this the right way. The market rent only option is the central plank of the Pubs Code. It is a fundamental change for the industry and, I believe, a powerful new tool for tenants. I do not think that there is any disagreement there.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was concerned that the significant increase in price thresholds had restricted the access of tenants to the MRO trigger. We have taken the advice of stakeholders from across the industry on the definition of a significant increase in price. Our draft code reflects the advice we received: that the primary focus should be on the price of beer and that the threshold should be in the order of 5%. We are consulting on this and the percentage increases for other tied products and services. As I said, we welcome the views of stakeholders.
It is vital that we get this right for all concerned. The market rent only option will ensure that tied tenants are no worse off than free-of-tie tenants. That is the actual principle in the Act. Tied tenants will be able to request a market rent only offer when certain trigger events take place. The Government have published draft provisions that allow for the request by the tenant of an MRO in all the circumstances required by Section 43, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. There are four circumstances, which I will not go into again because noble Lords in this Committee are extremely familiar with this.
When we discussed these provisions before, there was a view that giving tenants access to a variety of comparators was of itself a good thing. That was what was being said in the Chamber, but the conclusion we have come to is that that is not really necessary. What really matters is that the tenants are given meaningful comparisons so that they can make the right business decision. We believe that MRO provides that. They will not be committed to accept the MRO offer but can compare it with the tied terms they are being offered. They can use the MRO offer to negotiate a better tied deal, if that is their preference, or choose to take up the MRO offer. They will not need a PRA to do either of those things. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that there is scope for comparison when a tenant requests an MRO, as he or she can request a tied rent assessment. That allows the comparison process to happen.
However, if experience of the Pubs Code in action produces evidence that the introduction of the PRA provisions would be a useful addition to the options available to tenants, this is something that the Government can of course reconsider. The point has been made. It is in the legislation. The power to introduce PRA remains in the Act but it is the Government’s view that we should focus first and foremost on introducing the MRO-only option and the other key provisions of the code on transparency, with the new adjudicator to enforce them.
Lord Snape
Before the Minister leaves that point, how was it possible without PRA for a tenant to demonstrate that they would be worse off? The purpose of PRA was to allow them to prove it one way or the other, was it not, so how can they do that without PRA?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am sure we will come back to this. I will take that point away and go through it again myself. There is scope for a comparison in the way that I have described, so the tied tenants should be able to look at the options easily and clearly. We are trying to bring in a system that is simple, clear and well understood. We have looked at the provisions in the Act and come forward with a consultation that we feel is fair, right, simpler, easier and better.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, the idea that this is a good thing for small business and that a burden of £600,000 stands in its way utterly beggars belief. This provision was set up specifically in order to deal with the power and information asymmetries affecting smaller businesses with regard to larger ones. Again, it was the Minister who said on Report that,
“we have decided to reinstate PRA for existing tenants for a specific reason: because some tenants who do not wish to be free of tie would prefer the PRA, as they consider it a less confrontational way to secure a fair tied deal”.—[Official Report, 9/3/15; col. 464.]
Has any calculation been made about the cost to small businesses of not being able to have that provision, and indeed of the unfairness? Can the Minister say to me today that that cost would be significantly less than £600,000 if this was allowed to happen? I do not think she can.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am not sure that there has been a complete understanding of what we are proposing. They will have a free-of-tie rent and a tied rent assessment, and they consider this in the context of their own business planning, which is in their own best interests. Stakeholders and officials have sat down through the summer and done flowcharts and so on to try to work out how this will best work. Obviously I am listening to what noble Lords are saying today. We have come forward with proposals that we would like to be considered in the context of the consultation that we launched last week. Obviously, I understand—
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Is it not ironic that in working together with the previous Government to achieve a package that could get through on a tight timescale, to protect the Bill that the Minister was in charge of at the time, we have ended up in a worse position today than we were then? We should have learned that Governments are not to be trusted and gone with our instincts, which were to ensure that all these points were in primary legislation. Does the Minister not feel a scintilla of shame about the way in which we are now being dealt with? This is a real traducing of all our best endeavours and the support that we gave to her over that period. I personally feel very betrayed by it. I also feel betrayed by us not being told—in the spirit of openness that we tried to engender between ourselves in approaching legislation—that this was in the air, because the Minister must have known about it for some considerable time.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I think that we have been through the arguments. I understand the disappointment. Noble Lords need to understand that the Government are trying to do this in a way that is less bureaucratic and more effective. That is the basis of the consultation. However, I understand the strength of feeling that has been expressed today. We want to get the implementation of the Pubs Code, the adjudicator and the provisions right. We are genuinely consulting on the proposals that we have put forward. There will be a meeting of representatives of tenants’ groups and pub companies as early as next week to discuss the proposals in detail and to take them through our thinking. This subject is on the table, so it can be discussed. I very much hope that by Report we will have satisfied the obviously genuine concerns raised today. In the mean time, I hope that in the light of my comments noble Lords will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
The noble Baroness has talked an awful lot about the consultation that has gone on this summer with the different groups. Did any of them express a view on PRA and whether they wanted it or not, particularly the tenants, or was it not discussed?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, my understanding is that PRA was not discussed but I will engage further in the process and ensure that it is discussed in the context of the consultations going forward next week. As I pointed out, it is mentioned in the consultation paper, so obviously it can be on the agenda of the discussions taking place this month.
Lord Whitty
The noble Baroness played an effective defensive game on a very sticky wicket with a fair amount of hostile bowling. However, I do not think that she actually scored any runs. She is in a difficult position, as we all recognise. The fact of the matter is that she has clearly admitted that there has been a change of policy. As far as I can see from her responses to the various questions from my colleagues, that change of policy was not conveyed to the participants in this industry. In effect, it changes the legislation, which certainly was not communicated to us as legislators. That is a failure on behalf not of the Minister but of the department. We are therefore faced with a rather difficult situation regarding this issue between now and Report on this new Bill.
In terms of my two amendments which relate to the threshold, yes, we have discussed this at great length before but I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, or the noble Baroness. I put them down so that we could look at this again but they were at that point probing amendments. The real issue before us is the nature of the consultation document and the degree to which it differs from what our understanding was prior to the election—in this Committee, in this House on Report and in the House of Commons—and from the position that is reflected in the current legislation and the understanding of most of the parties in this industry.
The central issue here is not the economic state of the industry. We all deplore what faces most pubs. There are one or two pubs that I would not mind closing but I would prefer most pubs to stay open. Irrespective of the state of the industry, there is an imbalance between the individual tenant and a large brewer or pub chain organisation. This legislation was designed to redress that imbalance. Whatever view we may take, the MRO was seen as one way of redressing it. We would see the PRA and the MRO not as alternatives; they are complementary. However, what has happened with the consultation paper is that the triggers for the MRO have been limited, as has the availability of the PRA to those who might not necessarily want to go for the MRO but need to understand how the situation with their rent arrangements would compare with going for an MRO. It would therefore inform their discussions and relationships with their landlord.
That is fairly straightforward but we have limited the triggers and dropped entirely the provision for any tenant to get hold of that comparative information. That is a restriction on where we were under the previous Bill. It is a restriction on the discussions that we had just before the election involving all aspects of the industry to try to reach consensus. I understand why people feel betrayed. It is an emotive thing when people feel that the Government have not played straight with them.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I demurred from reading out the triggers because I did not want to labour the Committee with too long a speech. I do not think they have changed or been reduced to two.
Lord Snape
I am as anxious as ever to help the Minister out but I put the same question to her as I did to my noble friend: do the conditions that the Government have attached to MRO under these proposals not mean that a tenant could apply for a rent review only if he or she received a rent increase, and that they could not apply on the basis of the existing rent?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, given the disappointment and concerns expressed and the lack of complete clarity as a result of my not having read the consultation paper in detail—I have tried to do so and my understanding is that there are actually four triggers—I suggest that we come back to some of these issues in a meeting, outside Committee and formal debate, between now and Report. In the mean time the discussion should continue at a technical level. We are trying to get a good outcome that will help tied tenants and will help the industry go forward in a prosperous manner. We have put out a consultation paper that was designed to try to do things in a simpler way. It is a genuine consultation. Noble Lords have raised concerns and we will obviously look at those. We will try to clarify the various points raised from the perspective of the concerns that have been expressed.
Lord Whitty
I thank the Minister for that. It would be useful if some of what she said was conveyed to us in writing. More importantly, it should be conveyed to the representatives of tenants, with whom her colleagues will be consulting over the next week or two. If there is misunderstanding about what the changes mean then we need to clarify that rapidly because there are some very hurt feelings out there, let alone among ourselves in this House. We can take it but they should not have to. We will have to think again about what we do between now and Report, and any information that the Minister could convey to us would be helpful.
Lord Mendelsohn
My Lords, I am pretty sure this will be significantly briefer. This is largely a measure to highlight a particular issue and should certainly engender less confrontation. We are very supportive of the Government and other institutions on matters of cybercrime. This is a nudge. It is our attempt to add some measures to an important part of enterprise: sustaining effective and secure business, and the ability to secure cyberspace.
The ONS crime survey established that during the period surveyed there were 5.1 million frauds, of which 2.5 million were cybercrimes. These are crimes committed under the Computer Misuse Act. Their detection is based on footprints—that is, looking at devices affected by viruses, hacking, denial of services and virus proliferation, all those sorts of elements. Surveys, as I am sure the Government are aware, have indicated that 74% of small business and 90% of larger business have identified some form of cyber breach. In recent times there have been prominent cases where people who have been breached have suggested that they have the problem under control. We wish to raise this point because we do not believe this to be the case.
I personally participated in what I think outside America is the western hemisphere’s largest conference on cybersecurity, which took place in Tel Aviv with participation by chief information security officers— a term I had not heard of 18 months ago but these individuals are now very significant in their companies—law enforcement, intelligence services and government representatives, who were able to identify that the vast majority of offences actually are detected. It is easier to introduce a virus that is undetectable afterwards. In fact, cyber thieves produce around 250,000 novel variants of viruses every day, which is a huge amount, and I will come on to other aspects that impinge on this. We are seeing massive problems that we have to address.
It was instructive to learn during the course of the conference that the Sony cybersecurity breach that gained great prominence was identified only because they purposely left an imprint to make sure that people understood. Despite the fact that it had the participation of the most powerful cyber nation on this planet, you could not identify what the source was or its full extent. You could not even identify that it was North Korea by any form of examination of where it had been penetrated. It was only via the means of the traditional intelligence services that they were able to identify that it was North Korea. What hope, then, do businesses have in these circumstances?
Furthermore, there is a huge imbalance in the spend between larger and smaller businesses. Government figures that were published some time ago suggest that small and medium-sized businesses with 100 or more employees spend £10,000 a year on cybersecurity, but the smallest firms with fewer than 20 employees spend around £200 a year. This is highly problematic to the aim of having markets that are fully protected.
Over the past few years cybercrime has evolved, and it is now an enormous industry. The City of London Police estimate that it is a £39 billion industry, most of which is recycled into other forms of criminality. It is a hugely circular flow. Actually, it is an incredible market with suppliers, merchants and service providers. There are all sorts of things going on. It used to be said that armed robbery rates went down because if you wanted to be a criminal it was easier to sell drugs. Now, why carry a gun when you can make more with a laptop? The massive infrastructure of cybercrime is hugely problematic.
What I found most interesting at a different session of the cybersecurity conference was where it was identified that there is a massive penetration of companies’ customer details. Those details are blended and traded so that no company can ever detect that their particular security was breached. The details are sold in batches and strips. Even if your security is breached, no one actually knows the extent of the customer payment details that have been penetrated. In any blended list, you are not likely to have more than 2% of any particular company’s list in any list that is used for a cyber hack. I found this to be of extreme concern.
Mobile has been less prone to these sorts of attacks largely because Apple, Google and BlackBerry are the ones that integrate their encryption systems—this is relevant to a debate in other areas. The internet of things is now extremely vulnerable. The disaggregation of security is a huge problem and some fundamental strength is needed.
Criminals are able to recruit from security, intelligence and private sector organisations because they can pay more than the others, so I think that we have a massive issue here. As I say, the Government have not done enough. They have done quite a bit and many good initiatives are in place, but we are suggesting these amendments to try to give greater prominence to and amplify what they are doing, as well as to prod them to move in a couple of directions. I wish that we could have tabled an amendment that we were not allowed to, which would have been to try to encourage more small businesses in this country that are actually creating cybersecurity products. We wanted to table an amendment that would have mandated government departments to spend 8% of their entire IT spend on cybersecurity, because that would generate an ecosystem of cybersecurity firms. We have some good ones, although in this country really only in Cambridge, but imagine what a boost it would be to our cybersecurity capacity if we were able to do that.
Instead we believe that there is a role for government to set standards. In particular, we should promote our best: the City of London Police are outstanding. They are utterly world-leading on this and I pay a massive tribute to Adrian Leppard, who has been an outstanding commissioner. He is a world-leading and well renowned figure and the City of London Police are undoubtedly seen as one of the most significant, important and expert agencies in this. We would be very encouraged if the Government were to consider providing more prominent advice to businesses, which do not really know how to deal with this or know the right sort of things, and promoting the best in practice that we have—that of the City of London Police. I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, this amendment is designed to protect small businesses from cyberattacks. I was really pleased to hear about the knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, on this issue. I wish I had been at the conference which he described and I agree with his objective of amplifying the issue, especially in relation to small business. I also agree with him about the role of the City of London Police.
When I worked in business, an attack on personal data held by the company was one of my top risks and concerns. Recent events demonstrate that businesses need to take action on cybersecurity and can benefit from external advice and guidance. I think it is fair to say that the Government are doing a great deal in partnership with industry on cybersecurity. We have a strong strategic programme in place, which is right. There is a five-year plan for an £860-million national cybersecurity programme to provide a range of advice and guidance to businesses of all sizes, including a specific guide, Small Businesses: What you need to know about Cyber Security. I have copies of that guide.
We have stepped up this activity recently by relaunching the “Cyber Streetwise” campaign, which offers small businesses clear and simple advice on how to protect themselves. There is information in the press and the Committee may have seen advertising at train stations or on the tube. In addition, the Government’s “Cyber Essentials” scheme shows small businesses how to protect themselves against common cyberthreats. Since October 2014 the Government have required their suppliers to hold a Cyber Essentials certificate if they are handling personal data or sensitive information. That is all increasing awareness by amplification. There are more than 1,000 Cyber Essentials certificates, which have been issued to big organisations such as Vodafone, JCB, Barclays, the Royal Mail and BAE, as well as to colleges, universities and so on. We are working to get thousands of companies and their supply chains to adopt the scheme.
Our approach is to work with a range of law enforcement and other bodies to build partnerships with businesses, representatives and trade bodies, and to use these to increase awareness. We do not believe that the suggested amendment, which I think is mainly probing, goes beyond the existing approach in ambition or effectiveness. Putting guidance into legislation could result in a tick-box approach where guidance is merely published without the associated awareness-raising, partnership-building and behaviour change that is completely essential in this area.
We want to avoid unnecessary regulation. The amendment would create uncertainty as to what businesses were legally required to do and what was best practice, possibly even giving rise to litigation. It could also reduce our flexibility in dealing with what is, frankly, a very fast-moving issue. I think we were all astonished by the Sony leak and by recent events in the UK. We are not convinced that legislating in this Bill is the right thing to do. Following the information leak at TalkTalk, though, a committee of the National Security Council is now looking at this. Cyber Ministers are looking as a group at what further changes are needed. In addition the Digital Economy Minister, Ed Vaizey, promised last week that we would meet the Information Commissioner.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
As my noble friend is talking about the broad range of plans that the Government have, could they address something with the European Commission? As the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, pointed out, cybercrime is no respecter of boundaries. The Commission has located a cybersecurity centre in Heraklion in Crete, a place that you cannot fly to in winter because you have to go via Athens. In this very fast-moving area, it would be sensible to find a way of placing the centre more centrally where people would be prepared to work and operate. I mention that in passing because it is something that needs to be looked at. I underline absolutely what the Minister says—the Government are doing a very great deal here—but this is something that just does not fit with our plans, because the European convention is so important.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am grateful to my noble friend, and I shall certainly make sure that people are aware of the point that he has made. There is something of a carve-out in the EU institutions. I was at OHIM in Alicante a couple of weeks ago. The cybersecurity office, in the days when it was rather less central, was put in Heraklion. However, the key thing is that member states, as well as cyber Ministers in the UK, should get together because the cybersecurity industry is no respecter of boundaries, and a lot of visits, meetings and decision-making are made outside Heraklion.
I will not delay the Committee any longer. I wanted to give a feel of the fact that things are being done. I agree with the sentiment of the amendments: we need to make sure that small businesses, as well as big businesses, which of course suffer bigger reputational damage from leaks, are doing the right thing. That is why we have a strong strategic approach, along with targeted action to help small businesses. I hope that noble Lords have found that somewhat reassuring. I am sorry that we cannot really spend any longer on this important area this evening.
Lord Mendelsohn
I want to make the following staccato points. First, we spend £856 million. Unfortunately, that is spent principally on national security and too little is given to the other side. It would be nice if the Government could give that more consideration. We welcome the appointment of the former British ambassador to Israel, Matthew Gould, who will have a key role in cybersecurity inside the Cabinet Office—a very useful and important position.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, made a very important point. We are being targeted by criminals, not from various parts of, or cities in, this country but from every part of the world. That is very easy to do and it is a significant factor. I want to make a very simple point. The scale on which this activity can multiply is absolutely extraordinary, and it goes up by factors. We cannot afford to believe that simple awareness campaigns will work; much more effective measures are needed. There is a great deal of concern about this, and discussions have taken place between a number of countries, including our own—which was represented at the conference—on how you deal with the fact that there is an information lag and that you become the weakest part of the chain if you do not deal with it. It was entirely inappropriate for the proposal to be put forward in an amendment. Of course this is a much broader issue, but we just wanted to highlight it.
My final point is that the real problem about TalkTalk is not so much that the hacking happened. All the comments about how absurd it was that a company of that nature could run a system like that are fairly irrelevant. The extraordinary thing is that most of these serious crimes go undetected. That is the bigger problem, rather than the problem of the crimes that are detected. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Deben (Con)
Could the Minister help me on this, too? I have had exactly the same experience. I think that people around the country always find the figures very difficult to believe, because if you happen not to be in the section that is provided with broadband, you do not believe that anyone else is getting it. You form your opinion from your own experience. I wonder whether there is a possibility of helping those who are still waiting for broadband or, as in my case, are told that they have broadband but it does not actually work, which I think is what happens in much of Suffolk. I wonder whether there is a better way of helping us to feel that there might come a day in which we could operate our businesses more effectively from home than we can at the moment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I very much agree with noble Lords that it is important for consumers and businesses to have transparent information on how mobile and broadband coverage is improving. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Deben has joined the discussion. He is right: the truth is that perception in this area is lacking reality. It was a slow start, there is more to do and there are lots of individual problems with broadband, but the Government’s plans are now beginning to yield impressive dividends.
We are of course committed to ensuring that the benefits of improved broadband and mobile services are felt right across the nation. That is why we made a universal service commitment to provide minimum service levels of at least 2 megabytes per second by the end of 2015. Basic broadband is already available to virtually 100% of UK premises, and by the end of this year only about 1% of premises will receive less than 2 megabytes per second.
To deal with the remaining 1%, which in a sense is where we are, all premises will have access to at least 2 megabytes per second through the option of satellite broadband connections. They will have the capability of delivering superfast broadband for those who want it. Noble Lords may not know that the satellite scheme is currently being trialled in West Yorkshire and Suffolk, close to my noble friend’s home, and a national scheme is due to go live in December. We are very pleased with the results so far.
We remain on track to provide 90% superfast broadband coverage by early 2016, and we are aiming for 95% of UK premises—the number in the amendment —to have access to superfast speeds by December 2017.
As I think I told the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, superfast is already available to over 83% of homes and businesses in the UK. Importantly, that is up from 45% in 2010. So that was a good effort by the coalition Government. That is the highest coverage among the top five European economies.
Recognising problems in rural and remote areas, the Government have made available up to £8 million to support pilot projects to extend superfast broadband beyond 95% of UK premises, using satellite and wireless, as I said, and will publish further lessons from those pilots later this year.
Improving mobile connectivity is also a priority. Around 94% of the UK’s land mass has coverage from at least one mobile network operator and 69% has coverage from all four. But we want to go further. To this end, a landmark agreement was reached with all four operators in December to ensure that 90% of the UK’s landmass will have voice and text coverage from each MNO by 2017. What this also means is that 97.7% of the UK will have a signal from at least one mobile operator.
These are relentless and concrete measures that the Government have taken to improve coverage. We are striving every day to make improvements so that everyone can benefit from the digital economy. I share the frustrations of everybody at the time that this has taken, but we are committed to ensuring that we have the infrastructure we need for this fourth utility.
The noble Lord proposed a requirement to report on progress being made in improving broadband and mobile coverage. This is already widely available from lots of different sources. I can make the list available to noble Lords so that they know what is being done. I am not convinced that the information gap is there; what I think is there is the need to continue getting this fourth utility fully across the UK. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Mendelsohn
I thank the Minister for her comments. The one thing that comes across very strongly in this Committee is that in many ways one of the real crises we have in business is that far too often too much is said and marketed. It has become very apparent that trust in business is continuing to fall, and on very reasonable grounds on the part of the consumer. I have a lot of kids so I have two broadband connections into the house, neither of which provides consistency of service or provides anywhere near the advertised level of service. I would be interested to know whether at some point the Government will consider making it a condition that you can market only the minimum guaranteed and consistent service; that could be attractive rather than these pie-in-the-sky numbers. It is not acceptable to put in a fibre-optic cable to one point and then market it to a whole area with no consideration being given to whether you will put in a superfast connection.
We have to be able to say, “We do not want to be followers. We want to be leaders”. This rollout has become very difficult. I hope that the Minister takes note of the following. I know this is an area in which she has a personal and keen interest and that many members of the Government are also very interested in it. It would be a good and positive move to encourage the commercial operators in this sector to do more and to do it faster and harder. That inevitably makes sense. The Minister talks about using satellite or wireless. Given the money we have invested and the provisions we have made, we might just as well have given the cash to Google and Facebook—I declare an interest in that my wife works for Facebook—to use their drones or balloons because we probably would have been able to do the whole thing a lot faster and quicker with those mechanisms. We should not be in the position whereby the provision of this service is so slow. I am more than happy to withdraw the amendment but hope that the Minister will be consistent in her efforts to make sure these operators deliver.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am delighted to say that our efforts continue. We are trying to make sure that, as it were, reality goes faster. It has been a huge investment programme. I agree with a great many things that the noble Lord has said. I think there is a feeling right across the House that investment in this area is really important, which is one of the reasons I am so pleased that everybody supports the amendment we have put forward to the IDA, which obviously would allow extra spending in areas beyond things like the code that the noble Lord referred to.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
My Lords, as housing associations have been designated as part of the public sector, I ought to declare my interest as the chairman of Housing and Care 21. I will refer to the housing sector in the course of my remarks on these amendments. Personally, I have deep concerns about this. We know that it was a manifesto commitment of the governing party. It was a good selling point for them because it was populist, but I fear and know that it will result in poor legislation and will have unintended consequences.
I am one of those who is immensely worried about management capability in the public sector with all the demands to reform, change and improve it. But here we are, again putting public sector staff at a disadvantage as against the private sector at a time when, frankly, that sector remains rampant in terms of its conditions, benefits and even its pay-offs, certainly for high-level staff. We will find as a result of this change that we have further difficulties getting the managers that we want for these very difficult jobs, where we are trying to get change and reform. It is not easy and the very best people are needed. I have said this before but 100 good managers are worth £1 billion in public spending. This puts them at a disadvantage.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, said that this does not affect just the high paid. It also affects some of the lowest paid in the public sector, for all the reasons she set out. This is not simply a populist measure because it deals with the high paid; it affects others. Pensions are the main problem here. There are generous aspects of public sector schemes but we have recently been through a renegotiation on a lot of these and we are now going to break them once again. What is the Government’s word going to be worth in these situations where contractual obligations are being overruled by legislation?
I will give one example from the housing sector. The most difficult job in my career is making changes where people have to be made redundant. I always find it painful, but I have always ensured one thing—you have to show other employees that when you make changes you look after the people who are vulnerable in that situation. Whether we like it or not, we are going to face those situations in the next five years. We have never before seen the reform and change that is going to come in the public sector on the scale that is coming. We will know more when we see the public spending commitments but it is huge. At this precise moment we are undermining morale and will increase resistance to change.
In every housing association I have chaired we have had to make changes and we have sometimes had to make payouts in excess of £100,000. However, I have never regretted doing so because we have saved millions in return. If we give up these opportunities for change by putting in inflexibilities which make change more difficult, it will hold up reform and improvements that need to be made.
It is absolutely essential that there is some flexibility here. Normally, there would be a ministerial guideline that all payments above a certain level should be approved. That should be a normal management guideline instruction, and if this was not part of a populist general election commitment, it is what would happen. It would be the best thing for the public sector. It would provide restraint and a guideline on what is appropriate. Above all, it would provide flexibility for those who deserve payment and need to be protected. That is what should happen, so anything we can do in this legislation to provide a loophole and some flexibility must be welcomed. Ministers will regret not doing it in a year or two when they are finding it difficult to get change in the public sector or when they are trying to get people to believe agreements they want to make. People will say, “Well, you made an agreement a year ago and you broke it. It was on pensions, something that is pretty important, and you just it let it go, so why should we trust you now when you are trying to make even bigger changes?”.
Equity, sensitivity and trying to get change are important issues and are going to be very important in the next five years. Any Government that go into these changes wearing these handcuffs will find it very difficult to get change and improvements, nor will they deserve to do so. At the end of the day, change is painful and difficult for the employees in the sector where it is being done. They need to be able to say that the people who are being sacrificed for change are being well protected and that their agreements are being honoured. That will actually help achieve change quicker. I hope the Minister will assure us that on Report they will look at giving themselves some flexibility. That will be welcomed.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am grateful to noble Lords for their comments. At the outset, I shall address the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, made about whether the cap had been extended deliberately. First, £95,000 is a large exit payment, whatever the level of an individual’s former salary. The Government do not believe that the taxpayer should continue to fund exit payments larger than that. The clause allows for the cap to be relaxed, including to take account of exceptional individual circumstances. The large majority of workers are not affected by these arrangements; for example, less than 2% of recent exits in local government would have exceeded the cap. But where generous early retirement provisions are offered that include immediate payment of unreduced pensions, some lower-paid staff with very long service can currently be eligible for exit packages above the level of the cap.
The Government recognise the importance of exit payments in providing workers with support as they get back into employment or enter retirement. However, the fundamental point is that the Government do not believe that it is fair for taxpayers to continue funding the small minority of exit packages that cost over £95,000. The Government made a clear commitment in their manifesto—the source of the figure—to end six-figure exit payouts for public workers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked about consultation; she said that it had been inadequate. The measure has been public for a long time. We announced the intention to legislate in May, I think, in the Queen’s Speech. We received over 4,000 responses, and do not believe that that suggests that there has been insufficient time to comment. Obviously, the measure will go through full parliamentary scrutiny during the passage of this Bill; we discussed it at Second Reading, are discussing it today, and I am sure that it will be discussed again. I express my thanks to the noble Baroness for her positive comments about some of the exclusions, which she has rightly highlighted. She also asked about the impact assessment. It is not a private sector impact, so it does not go through the RPC. There was an impact assessment as part of the consultation, which followed the usual criteria set out in government guidance. I do not know whether she has seen that; if not, obviously I will send it to her. I understand that the public had an opportunity to comment on it.
It is currently possible for employers to use taxpayers’ money to fund excessive exit payment, as a substitute for good management practice. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, saying at Second Reading how important management was. I think he said that 100 good managers were worth a billion pounds. The availability of very large payments can lead to issues of poor performance. The possibility of redeployment is not always given adequate consideration, which we would all like to see. The cap and the additional scrutiny it brings to payments will encourage employers to act with discipline and proportionality in considering public sector exits, and will help to ensure that good management practices are embedded in decision-making.
Amendment 53A seeks to increase the value of the cap to £145,000, a much higher figure. It would require taxpayers to continue to fund six-figure exit payments for public sector workers. Statutory redundancy pay is of course capped at £14,250. Exit payments of £145,000 would of course represent payouts of 10 times that amount. A cap even at the level proposed by the Government will not affect the large majority of public sector workers, as I have said. For the few who receive such payments, the cap does not reduce their compensation to an unreasonable amount and still compares favourably to the private sector. In addition, as I have said, the clause applies for a waiver power to allow the cap to be relaxed in exceptional circumstances.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, this amendment does not try to amend the purpose of Clause 26; rather, it would change an ambiguity in the final line of new Section 153A(1) inserted by Clause 26, where the qualifier,
“any period of 28 consecutive days”,
could be said to refer to payments rather than to exits. It might be possible for a generous employer to pay £95,000 every month, which I presume is not the intention of the clause. My amendment would change the wording so that it would clearly refer only to the exits and ensure that duplication of payments could not be made.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank my noble friend Lord Borwick for his support for the cap and for his interest in helping us to ensure that the provisions that implement it are clear and understandable to those who will be affected. To cut the cackle, I am happy to accept his amendment.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, I put my name to these amendments and I am very happy to support them, but I confess that the forces in their support are in some disarray today. We have already heard about the unavoidable absence of the noble Lord, Lord Wills—prevented from attending by a rival speaking engagement to which he was committed. I myself am less fully briefed and more underpowered than I would wish, having literally stepped off a plane this morning from the United States to find that the amendments were coming up today. I had been expecting them on Monday; indeed, for some time this afternoon it seemed as though they would not be reached until Monday, such was the Grand Committee’s rate of progress, but here we are. I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for riding to the rescue and moving the amendment.
The concern is basically that those settling claims where they might have got unlimited damages had they gone to tribunal will be disproportionately prejudiced if the amount at which a claim may be settled is capped. This is certainly the case with claims under PIDA, the Public Interest Disclosure Act, but it may just as much be the case with discrimination cases. The Minister might care to comment on that, as we may wish to take it up on Report. A second concern is that capping settlements where there is no limit on the level of damages that may be obtained at tribunal can operate only as an incentive to go to tribunal—to go to litigation rather than settle.
The noble Baroness spoke to the amendments very ably and, given the hour, I do not think I need say anything more about them, save that I fully support them.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank noble Lords, including in his absence the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for tabling this amendment. I was able to have a good discussion with him last night, and I hope that there will be some positive news for noble Lords.
I reiterate that the amendment has three components: a regulatory referral system for whistleblowing, access to legal advice for whistleblowers receiving exit payments, and the publication of guidance. If an exit payment relates to a potential whistleblowing disclosure, that would need to be agreed by both parties under a settlement agreement or following conciliation through ACAS. I assure noble Lords that no such agreement can prevent an employee from making a public interest disclosure as stipulated in the Employment Rights Act 1996. Any provision that sought to do so would be void, so a regulatory referral system is unnecessary to enable proper investigation of any malpractice. Any employee entering into an agreement that involves waiving the right to take such an issue to employment tribunal should be fully advised of the impact that would have.
There have been a number of recent developments on whistleblowing, including new guidance. The guidance for employers recommends that they confirm in their whistleblowing policies that settlement agreements cannot prevent workers from making disclosures in the public interest. The guidance for workers clarifies this point. So, too, does guidance published by the Cabinet Office in February this year for Civil Service organisations and their arm’s-length bodies on severance payments and settlement agreements.
Finally, I hope that what I say in relation to Amendment 54 will be good news. The amendment seeks to exempt payments to whistleblowers from the cap on public sector exit payments. I assure the Committee that, where a whistleblower successfully brings a case to an employment tribunal, the cap will not apply to the award made. Under the indicative regulations, which set out how it is proposed to implement the cap and which the Treasury has made available, any payment made under an order of any court, including employment tribunals, would be outside the scope of the cap.
I hope that noble Lords have found that explanation reassuring. The noble Lord, Lord Wills, certainly did, and I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Low of Dalston
It is not in dispute that the awards which may be made at tribunals will not be capped. The concern is that the settlements will be capped, and I am not sure that, from that point of view, the Minister has met the point of the amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for raising that point. It is important that I check the situation and, if I may, I will write to him. I think that our objectives in this area are the same, but it is important that I understand precisely the interplay of this provision and other legislation. I will come back to him.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
The noble Lord, Lord Low, calls himself underpowered and then he understands every jot and tittle. The point that he has just raised is the key one. Where these sorts of things happen, it is much better if they can be dealt with by settlement rather than involving expense and coverage for the employer and everyone else. I, too, will want to look at this carefully and to take advice from my noble friend Lord Wills. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, the amendments in this group are pretty crucial. In part, they take forward what we said in the first group about exit payments and helping the good management of the service at local and national levels. There are clear examples of where existing rights and agreements should not be undermined, such as payments in lieu of notice where they are part of a contractual entitlement of employment, which, as has been said, is often a useful tool for employers in managing exits.
In the Civil Service the proposed cap cuts across the negotiating of an agreement. The then Minister for the Cabinet Office, now the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, described the agreement reached in 2010 as one that would be lasting. He said that it would provide,
“a fair balance between the interests of taxpayers and the interests of civil servants and protect those approaching retirement and the lowest paid”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/12/10; col. 849.]
This Bill should not undermine that agreement, whatever one thinks about the desirability of the principle of the cap itself. Nor, as we have heard, should the cap hamper the reorganisation and modernisation of public services, as suggested earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, and as wanted and supported by other parts of the Government. As my noble friend has said, the Local Government Association is particularly worried that the cap would threaten its future staff restructuring because it is such a rigid cap and because of its particular impact on long-serving employees who may be exactly the ones whose tasks or skills are now less in demand. It would also exclude some staff from early retirement who might otherwise have been part of a headcount reduction exercise, with strategic restructuring now hampered as councils are perhaps forced to keep on their highest-paid staff instead of allowing them to retire and bringing in lower-cost replacements.
The cap, of course, once it is in, will also act as a disincentive to those considering voluntary redundancy. That is likely to mean there will end up being more compulsory redundancies as well as difficulties in modernising the service. This matter is of particular importance to local government, which is partly why we have tabled Amendment 54H to include in the Bill rather than in secondary legislation the ability to make exemptions where the full council of the local authority decides to grant a waiver of the cap. The Government have now published their draft statutory instrument allowing for a waiver where the full council so agrees. However, as my noble friend Lady Donaghy said, this ability could be swept away if it is only in secondary legislation, with local government having no guarantees in this regard. That makes future planning very difficult. We therefore hope that Amendment 54H will be considered a better way forward as the principle has already been signed up to by the Government, but the amendment would give everyone confidence in it.
The amendments containing specific figures that we have now brought into this group seek to push the Government to define the words that we all keep using—that is, what is meant by “the best paid”? Is it people on a salary of £30,000, £35,000 or £40,000 a year? It is important to be clear about that. It is hard to imagine the Government not accepting that anyone earning below the national average wage should be excluded from this provision. Therefore, we hope that Amendment 54BA will be accepted.
We also think it important to exclude from the provision people with long service. That is important not just for their sake, and what they have earnt during their career working for all of us, but because of the advantages that this offers to management. After all, those people have earnt those benefits. We do not consider that the Conservative manifesto wanted to catch people who have given long service to this country. Those are the people we would like to see excluded from this provision. I imagine that the Minister concurs with that objective and hope that she can find a way to accept that amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, this group seeks to delay the implementation of the cap, create exemptions or introduce an earnings threshold. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for grouping these together.
Amendment 54B seeks to ensure that the cap cannot stop payments of more than £95,000 if they are already allowed under current arrangements. The effect of this would be that employers would have to make amendments to compensation schemes, or to make changes to existing contractual entitlements before the Government could stop such payments. This would have the effect, I fear, of making the exit payments cap ineffective, or delaying it indefinitely.
Amendment 54G seeks to put in place a transitional period of two years after Royal Assent during which the cap would not apply in cases of what she describes as “institutional reorganisation”. The Government do not accept that it would be appropriate to frustrate the intention of the cap by delaying its full introduction for two years. However, the Government recognise that workforce restructuring can be a lengthy and complex process. There may be instances where exits that have long since been agreed will not take place until after the £95,000 cap comes into force. We recognise that there may be instances where it would be appropriate to give effect to such agreements after the cap comes in.
Amendment 54H concerns the power to relax the restrictions imposed by the cap. The clause provides that this is exercisable by Ministers of the Crown, and ensures that any exercise of that power is subject to scrutiny. The Government agree that it is appropriate that the power to relax restrictions be vested outside Ministers in relation to certain bodies outside central government. This includes local authorities. The draft regulations, which noble Lords will now have seen, provide that the power to relax restrictions on exit payments may be exercised by full councils of local authorities in respect of payments that they make. However, we need to ensure that the level of scrutiny and reassurance remains the same so whoever exercises the power must do so by reference to guidance issued by the Treasury, and must of course keep a record of the exercise of that power.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, this is the amendment that the Government really ought to grab hold of if they want to achieve their stated objective of stopping big payments to the highest paid rather than to the longest serving of their own employees. It is this amendment which would prevent the longer serving, albeit lower earning, workers from being caught. As my noble friend has said, it is so unfair because these strain payments do not even go to the individual, it is an actuarial change from what is at the moment available from their current employer to the pension scheme. However, it will reduce the amount that they are able to take as their pay.
We have already heard of examples from my noble friend and we are talking about this becoming a bigger problem. We could have someone with 35 years’ service earning perhaps £30,000, but because of the later retirement age now of 65, a person on that salary will undoubtedly hit the cap and not be able to take a well-earned and justified amount of money. It can also happen with much smaller sums in terms of long service. This is going to hit older workers, and to me it feels discriminatory towards them. I do not know whether any challenges will be made on this basis, but they are the people who will be caught—it is not by virtue of their pay, but by virtue of their age.
I will add one more point. As the Bill stands at the moment, it will affect those who, under the present arrangements, can take a non-reduced pension on compassionate grounds. I assume that that is also going to go out of the window. This is an absolutely crux amendment. Solve this on pensions and we will have gone a long way to solving what is between us on this matter.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. It is late but I will try to respond because the noble Baroness and her noble friend have both made important points about a key area. The amendment seeks to exclude any pension top-up element from the scope of a cap on exit payments. The Government do not believe that such an exclusion would be desirable for reasons that I will explain.
Let me be clear: the Government’s proposals, as I said at Second Reading, do not involve taking away people’s group pension rights, so the cap will not affect in any way an individual’s right to their earned pension, nor does it engage the 25-year guarantee on pension rights. It is focused on limiting the amount that a public sector worker can receive from an employer when leaving employment. The cap is intended to cover all the various types of payment that an employer may make, and the Government think it right that it should include payments made to a pension scheme to fund early access to that payment, otherwise you will have a different problem.
Noble Lords will be aware that where an individual takes early retirement, pension payments are normally reduced to reflect the expectation that they will be paid for longer, and the amount of the reduction is calculated by the scheme actuary to ensure that the consequences for the scheme and for the individual are cost-neutral. In cases where the individual is retiring early on the basis of ill-health or redundancy, certain pension and compensation schemes may allow an employer to make a payment into the pension scheme to buy out any reduction so that the individual can have immediate access to the unreduced pension. These additional costs to the scheme, those of providing a pension of greater value than the individual would otherwise be entitled to, are met by the employer and, ultimately of course, by the taxpayer.
I can make it clear that these provisions do not alter the position in relation to early retirement for ill-health and injury, but I am not sure about compassion, so I will have to look into that. As I alluded to earlier, it is only where such a payment forms part of a redundancy package in place of or additional to a lump sum redundancy payment that it will be within the scope of the cap. The Government do not accept that as a rationale for excluding this type of payment from the cap. Payments of this type are sometimes some of the most expensive and place the greatest burden on employers and taxpayers. I would also like to reassure noble Lords that the Government believe that redundancy packages should still retain flexibility to allow early access to a pension where employers have the ability to top up an employee’s pension. These proposals will simply ensure that any top-up is within the limits of the cap, and Schedule 4 to the Bill gives a power whereby the employer can still make a payment into the pension scheme to reduce the actuarial reduction that would otherwise have been made.
I note the points that have been made and I understand the emotion behind and importance of this issue. It is serious, but the Government have brought forward a scheme. It involves picking up these extra payments that are made to top up pensions, and I hope that, in the interests of time, the noble Baroness will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Donaghy
I thank the Minister for her response, but she has not convinced me by one iota. However, in view of the time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, this group of amendments has been spoken to in part by my noble friend Lady Donaghy. I am taking up the incredibly good and thorough work of our Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and in fact I will draw completely on its insights, experience and recommendations. Without these changes, it is possible—from something the Minister said earlier as a slight aside—that she may accept it. If so, I shall save myself from making a speech. If she is likely to do so, I will move the amendment formally. If not, I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, we have received the committee’s report, and I take this opportunity to thank the committee for its detailed scrutiny. This is a last-minute amendment, but of course we appreciate the spirit in which it has been made. We are giving close consideration to the committee’s recommendations, including the need to ensure that we reflect the devolution position correctly. Perhaps I may therefore revert to this on Report with a proposed amendment on the subject.